[Previous posts: one and two. Increasingly loosely a response to the arguments here. I realize I am asking for this, but IF YOU PEOPLE REHASH ELEVATORGATE IN MY COMMENT SECTION I WILL DELETE YOU ALL.]
One of the questions I’m trying to explore with this series is what would be some logical ways in which to organize the dating world.
There aren’t any.
Well, there are ethical rules. “Don’t do things to people’s bodies without their consent” is always a good rule. So is “don’t lie to people.” And “if you can tell a person is distressed by you hitting on them, don’t hit on them.”
But in terms of effectiveness? Fuck no. There aren’t any rules. There are heuristics.
For instance! Many people believe that you shouldn’t hit on women in an enclosed space like an elevator. To be perfectly honest, despite my female conditioning, I would not be more freaked out by a stranger expressing sexual interest in me in an elevator than I would by a stranger expressing sexual interest in me in any other circumstance. (To be completely fair, my general reaction to a stranger expressing sexual interest in me is sheer terror, so it is possible I just didn’t notice the elevator-induced additional terror.) Many people believe that sending a message through a friend that you want to have sex with someone is middle-school-ish, while I consider it a perfectly reasonable way to get in contact with me, given my aversion to phones, Facebook, and the outdoors. Et cetera.
I don’t mean to suggest that everyone else has all these preferences and I am all Liberated and Free Of Your Constraints. I have weird aversions too. Like I said, I tend to respond to strangers who want to have sex with me with panic, and yet somehow cruising places and one-night-stands and people who get drunk at clubs and hook up still exist.
The same sort of diversity applies all throughout relationships, but fortunately after the asking out stage you can just ask people what they like and then organize the relationship that way. But, Oz and Willow aside, you can’t ask people how they’d like to be asked out before you ask them out. So basically if you ask people out, there is a certain risk of people disliking the way you ask them out, complaining to their friends about it, etc. And there’s no real way I can see around it, except not asking people out, and even then you’ll probably get people complaining that you’re lurking around and they can tell you have a crush on them but they don’t like you back and you won’t make a move and aaaaaah this is so awkward.
So yeah. If you ask people out, sometimes you’ll upset people. There’s not a lot you can do besides being sensitive about signals that mean someone doesn’t want to talk to you or is uncomfortable with continued flirting (hint: they are basically the same as the signals that a platonic friend Does Not Want To Talk To You) and avoiding methods of asking people out that will freak out most people, such as yelling at random ladies about how nice their asses are. Also, convincing people not to throw a giant fit when a lady blogger mentions offhandedly that she wishes dudes wouldn’t hit on her in elevators? That would be nice.
I do, however, have an idea about how we can ameliorate this nonsense, at least for heterosexuals! And that is to end this stupid idea that women can’t ask men out.
Let’s assume that there’s group X, which is more-or-less comfortable with asking people out and the attendant risks. And group Y, which is more-or-less uncomfortable with this idea. Under the system that most of the dating world currently operates on, if a dude is X, it works out great. But if the dude is Y, either his partner is also Y, in which case they’ll just sort of stare awkwardly at each other in between writing torrents of impassioned poetry, or she’s X, in which case she is getting increasingly frustrated at him staring awkwardly and writing impassioned poetry and wishing that she lived in a sensibly-run universe in which she could fucking ask him out.
If we take away that stupid restriction, however, any couple with at least one X in it leads to happy funmaking romance times, which is a significant increase. The two-Y couples are still stuck, but I guess someone needs to write all the grief-stricken poetry.
Photo– Ken and Nyetta/Flickr.
Like Oirish Martin upthread, I appear to be amongst the minority of men who have ever been in a relationship where a woman asked them out, rather than the other way round. To paraphrase said girlfriend, she eventually asked me because she got tired of ‘looking pretty in your general direction’. If she had waited for me to ask her out, we would probably have never got together. Two observations from having been asked out by a woman, rather than the other way round: she got a lot of grief from her friends for ‘not being in a Proper Relationship(tm)’,… Read more »
I ask men out the wimpy way I learned from them. I chat them up about work stuff and hand them my business card with ‘It would be great to discuss this over a beer sometime.’ If the date doesn’t go well, I just talk about work the whole time and escape. I think men started handing me business cards about 10 years ago. Before then, the ‘professional approach’ (masking a date as a professional interest) didn’t really happen much. It’s a good low-risk technique to ask someone out without appearing you want to jump his bones RIGHT NOW.
A couple of points. One: I’ve noticed comments here or there indicating that women asking men out can lead to misconceptions. My only response: perhaps this is a matter of technique or implication. When I ask someone out, my general technique is usually very direct. Having conversed with them at length and determined that there is common ground and maybe even chemistry, I say something along the lines of, “Pardon me for being forward, but would you like my contact information so that we may continue this discussion at a later date? [note: I never ask for contact information from… Read more »
This post is beautiful and I love it.
However, I’m not going to ask this post out. I’m just going to stare longingly in its direction and hope that it gets the message. Hopefully it won’t be creeped out.
It a woman tried to “pick me up” I’d feel uncomfortable and I’d try to maneuver myself out of the situation. I expect any woman to react the same way it I approached them, so I try not to do it.
The people who feel comfortable at the thought of approaching strangers with a romantic or a sexual intent seem like a different species to me.
Sometimes I wonder how come people (me included) actually do date each other once in a while.
As an aromantic ace, all of the mores and traditions surrounding sex and dating confuse me. I was perfectly happy being alone and always hated getting approached (unless it was by a girl, then it was flattering and cute). I mean, I’m married now and it’s awesome, but it just sort of… happened. It didn’t feel like either of us made any concerted effort at the “dating” thing. Which is really strange to put into plain english because we’re long distance and that takes a lot of work. But still. I WISH it was all formalized and didn’t go hand-in-hand… Read more »
Tapio, are you a Finn by any chance? I’m guessing mainly based on your name…but if that’s true, I think you may have also touched on the influence of culture on expectations. I’m a North-American/Finn (grandparents came over from Finland to flee the Russians/conscription) and I find that Finns are more naturally reserved and introverted, even those of us who are a few generations removed. I find the idea of approaching/being approached by a stranger to be completely awkward and uncomfortable, but I’m an introvert who prefers small group/friend/acquaintance interacts to big social events where people are aggressively pursuing each… Read more »
really, its make me sad. Maybe some men are assuming that women ask them out want to have sex. But not all men are like that. If i have a girl asking me out i would be really flattered , i wouldn’t mind i have sex or not. I just want accompany from women, we could just talking, go to restaurant, or watching movies. But i cant blame them, those guys who only want sex makes the others bad. It makes me sad cause i know that many women wont ask men out cause they afraid we assumming women who… Read more »
This is one of the things that I really, really like about the song “Call Me Maybe.”
yrs–
–Ben
A little light-heartedness could go a long way, if one can manage it. Approach the asking out with a bit of a sense of humor, and even maybe make a joke about how scary it can be, and maybe then it won’t be so scary. If the person is interested, then he or she will likely laugh along with you. Don’t invest it with the weight of a marriage proposal, for heaven’s sake. If asking someone out is intimidating for you, then someone who has no empathy for how intimidating it can be may not be the person for you… Read more »
Ok, I must throw in my 2 cents here. I have always been a very average looking girl, and to make my teenage years harder I have a sister who is pretty firmly in “babe” territory. At some point between 17 and 19 I figured out that nothing I did would cause boys to flock to me, lining up for dates, they way they always have for my sister. Asking and getting rejected (or having to reject a 2nd date with someone I asked who turned out to be horrible,) became less painful than being alone. When I met my… Read more »
It seems like a lot of the men here tend to have a pretty unrealistic idea of what being the “askee” is like. Regular, non-supermodel women don’t typically have long lines of willing suitors they get to pick and choose from, and in actuality most of us get approached pretty rarely, if at all. It can be just as restrictive and depressing and damaging to one’s self esteem to be told you have to wait to be approached by a man (especially when few or none are forthcoming) as it is to be told you have to strongly pursue women… Read more »
yeah. A further issue is that the dismantling of awful patriarchal social systems left a really ineffective system in their place. Our society, as far as I can tell, does not really have ways of signalling sexual interest or whatever, except for a few that are misinterpreted and then used by rape apologists.
Outside of online dating there hardly seem to be any elevated, formalized situations focused on matchmaking. And nobody seems to have ways to signal sexual interest or disinterest. Or availability even
When doing fictional worldbuilding I have generally included such signs.
I think that’s an accurate description of the situation. I think there are two contributing factors: 1 Single men and women are not distributed evenly across the physical geography of the world. Formalised signaling won’t help much in communities where the gender ratio is seriously skewed on way or the other. 2 Nobody wants to have to deal with the explicit rejection that any system of formalized signaling would require. And I mean both rejecting and being rejected. I think that’s a big factor in the demise of the old time courting rituals, and the lack of any formalized replacement.… Read more »
Ask away ladies, would be nice to be the accepter/rejecter for a change.
I agree it would be nice every now and then, but ah, seduction is such a thrill.
It would be amazing. To be honest, I don’t even know how I’d react. It is like asking me how I would react if a spaceship landed in front of me or if I saw a herd of unicorns were grazing in central park. It is such an absurd concept that I’m not sure how I’d react.
That’s basically my view of it. When this topic came up back before the move to GMP, I had outright said that at any point in time if any woman asked me out whilst I was single, I’d give her at least one date regardless of anything else just out of novelty. I have yet to need to actually go through with that offer, and I’ve been single that entire span of time..
That’s true. When I was in early high school a girl I did not even know asked me out and (I think) tried to flirt with me. I was still rather asocial (now very very social but an introvert) and committed to a life of celibacy because seeing sex on a list also containing drugs and violence gave me a low opinion of it and so on. Still, I felt really bad and confused about this event. It did not help that the asshole bullies in my Boy Scout troop thought I was completely idiotic. For me, just having somebody… Read more »
Being the rejecter isn’t so nice either.
I agree. It’s not. I understand the frustration of the guys on this thread who want to be asked out, but there is no nice way of turning someone down. They are going to be upset, even if they don’t show it. It isn’t nice to have to make someone upset, even if they are a stranger. And women are socially conditioned to want to smooth things over, not make trouble and above all, be nice. I had a situation once when I was in a long term relationship where a guy came up to me in a specialist music… Read more »
I suspect people are over-idealising it largely because they have little to no experience of success in this arena.
Not that I’m overwhelmed with experience either mind, although both of the relationships I’ve had started with me being pursued by the girl….which seems a tad anomalous.
One problem I’ve noticed with women asking men out is that it often leads to the dude (and others) assuming that the woman is *really-super-mega* in love/lust with him. Which makes a little sense, since it’s possible the woman had to be really motivated by strong feelings to overcome the social conditioning telling her it’s desperate/slutty/unladylike to hit on men. But it can make things pretty awkward when you’re trying to say “Hey, I’d like to get to know you a little better” and the askee hears “I WANT TO JUMP YOUR BONES IMMEDIATELY.” Obviously, the answer is continue trying… Read more »
That’s a fear I have too, if I ask a guy out, will he assume I definitely want to have sex with him and then get pissy if it turns out I don ‘t (at least not immediately?) Rightly or wrongly, that is one reason I have always avoided directly asking a guy on a date. Ibstead, I flirt and try to get him to take the hint. Which doesn’t always work. I also find it hard to tell if guys are attracted to me, but if a guy asks me out, I can assume he is attracted to me… Read more »
“because pursuing men who don’t find me attractive wastes my time and theirs.” Welcome to the entire life of every man to live. Don’t get me wrong, I wish I had the luxury you do, but I don’t. You have legitimate excuses for why you don’t want to ask people out, but it doesn’t change anything because men have just as many good reasons why we don’t want to ask women out; however, we do not have the luxury to choose not to ask women out and still find ourselves in a relationship. As I’ve said in past threads, not… Read more »
@Collin: Women hitting on you carries its own baggage. I work as a pouring attendant (read: stripped-down bar tender) at a winery and am oftentimes “complimented” by buzzed, tipsy, drunk, or out-and-out trashed women for various reasons (I can only assume some of them think I’ll be more generous with the wine if they flirt with me and some actually find me attractive). I find this inappropriate for several reasons: first and foremost, it is DEMEANING. Secondly, if I were to call a female service employee “sexy”, “hot”, “cute”, et cetera while receiving service from her, it would stand a… Read more »
This is a good point, and I’m sorry you have to deal with such jerky customers. A lot of the men who say they wish women would hit on them more don’t seem to consider that it could involve rude, pushy, demeaning, or otherwise unattractive women doing it.
(Though as to the possibility of suing for sexual harassment, most people I know who’ve worked in customer service have gotten inappropriate comments from customers, and there’s no way they’d ever sue- there’s no law saying customers can’t be jerks to employees, and you risk getting fired for calling them on it).
“… If he doesn’t ask me out, I usually assume I probably failed his hotness tests so there is no reason for me to ask him out. …” You’ve mentioned that belief several times now, and I have a hard time wrapping my mind around that concept. I’m a straight guy, and imagine I’m single and in a club Saturday night. For easy math imagine that there a re one hundred women in my age group who seem to be single in that club. How many of them pass my “hotness test” (which I will define as “pushed enough of… Read more »
There is another side to this. For me at least, it’s not really an *immediate hotness* thing as an *am I interested yet* thing. Being INTERESTED YET happens when a) vague undefined crush starts, b) a sort of feeling of chemistry when dancing, the only time I have ever desired to ask somebody to participate in casual sex, or c) I talk with somebody and they are interested and interesting and there is also seemingly some kind of potential for concupiscence. If the other person asked me out, this would shunt the situation to c because it shows evidence that… Read more »
What Collin said — your concerns apply to men too, but most men don’t have the luxury of having any significant chance of getting a date if they aren’t doing the asking.
As long as men asking out women is the norm, those concerns don’t really apply equally to the sexes. A man getting rejected after asking out a woman gets a “Well, good for you, at least you tried!” while a woman getting rejected after asking out a man gets a “Wow, how sad and desperate of you that you had to pursue the guy and got rejected anyway.” We’re told (falsely!) that all men enjoy the chase and will happily pursue any women they’re attracted to. Flipping the script will get you a lot of social disapproval, especially if you… Read more »