Clarisse Thorn begins her deep exploration into the world of the Pick-Up Artist.
There is an enormous subculture devoted to teaching men how to seduce women. Within the last half-decade or so, these underground “pickup artists” have burst into the popular consciousness, aided by Neil Strauss’s bestselling book The Game and VH1’s hit reality show “The Pick-Up Artist.”
Pickup artists — also known as the “seduction community” — exchange ideas in thousands of online fora, using extensive in-group jargon. One pickup artist site lists “over 715 terms, and counting.” There are pickup artist meetups, clubs, and subculture celebrities all over the world. There are different ideological approaches and theoretical schools of seduction. Well-known pickup artist “gurus” can make millions of dollars per year: they may sell books; they may sell hours of “coaching”; they may organize training “bootcamps” or conventions with pricy tickets; they may run companies full of instructors trained in their methods. The community even generates its own well-thought-out internal critiques.
I am a sex-positive feminist lecturer and writer. I write primarily about my experiences with sadomasochism, but I have a general interest in sexuality. I first encountered pickup artists when smart ones started attending my educational events and commenting on my blog.
Some aspects of pickup artistry are hugely problematic; many parts of the community showcase and encourage misogyny. While exploring the PUA jungle, I observed things that turned my stomach and brought tears to my eyes. On the other hand, I had to admit that some pickup artist perspectives were very interesting. Some had fascinating insights about gender theory and social power. I also felt drawn by their exploits. Learning seduction, and watching hypothetically-dazzling Casanovas run a courtier-like game, sounded like an extremely fun way to spend my time.
I started my journey by talking to a few pickup artists and reading their fora. By the end, I had given a lecture at a seduction convention, and I had decided against developing my own coaching business. Within the next few months, I plan to release a pop-feminist book online titled Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser: Long Interviews with Hideous Men. In the meantime, I can offer a quick synopsis of my own history, and why I became so interested in PUAs. I will break down some elementary distinctions among the men of the seduction community. Finally, I will offer a few PUA-influenced thoughts on feminist goals.
To begin at the beginning …. I was an awkward little bookworm of a child, but at least I was creative. I liked to draw, invent games, and run amateur social experiments. When I was in high school, most of my friends were on the Internet; I did not date a real-life boyfriend until college. I was inevitably teased by my peers, but even when treated well, I rarely engaged with the social hierarchies around me. I had difficulty grasping how social mechanics were “supposed” to work. A lot of things seemed obvious to other people that were not obvious to me.
For example, in sixth grade, a female friend of mine teased me about flirting with a boy. “What was I doing?” I asked. “Come on, you were flirting!” she responded. While I thought I almost understood what she meant, I was unsure — so I set out to poll everyone I knew about what constitutes “flirting.” Responses were inconsistent. One person said, very definitely: “Giggling.” Others cited examples such as “intense looks” or “making jokes.”
By the end of this experiment, I concluded that no one seemed able to explain “flirting” in terms of consistent behaviors; there were few commonalities in my final list. From what I could tell, flirting could only be explained in terms of invisible interpersonal dynamics. I found this both entertaining and frustrating.
I sometimes wonder what would have become of me if the modern pickup artist community had existed back then, and I had discovered it. PUAs devote a lot of time to understanding seduction in terms of observed behaviors. They have terms for social tactics that run the gamut from creating rapport, to encouraging trust, to building sexual tension, to shifting social power. But although the purpose of these social tactics is to manipulate emotion, the tactics are typically described as concretely as possible. Some PUA coaches provide long memorized “routines,” but it is more common to talk about particular social actions or broader strategies.
One famous PUA tactic is called the “neg.” “Neg” stands for “negative hit”, and one site defines a neg as “a remark, sometimes humorous, used to point out a woman’s flaws.” Like many PUA terms, the deeper meanings and usage vary from PUA to PUA — but there is an especially dramatic range of meanings with “neg.”
Some PUAs see negs as friendly teasing: a way for the PUA to show that he is paying attention to the girl, without appearing needy or overeager. I can offer a cute example of this approach from my own life. I was sitting in a café with a former PUA, and he gazed deep into my eyes.
“Wait a minute,” he said slowly. “Are your glasses held together by epoxy? It looks like you had to repair them at the corners.”
“Yeah,” I admitted.
He grinned. “Everything about you just screams ‘starving artist’, doesn’t it.”
This made me laugh for quite a while. I think it worked because he understood that I have chosen (for now) to be a broke writer — but he also recognized the tension I feel about that choice. So this gentleman was demonstrating that he correctly discerned my priorities; that he is not bothered by a choice that makes me feel self-conscious; and that he is confident enough to tease me.
Also, at a moment when I thought he might compliment my eyes, the former PUA shook up my expectations by breaking the romantic pattern. Often, effective flirting involves offering the right mixture of confidence plus charming novelty plus paying attention.
Some PUAs see negs more strategically, as a way of passing a woman’s “tests” or breaching her indifference. They argue that this is necessary for women who are very high-status, very beautiful, etc. They argue that some women develop a kind of immunity to compliments, and that some women actively prefer feisty, faux-adversarial flirting. Most PUAs only advocate using negs on women who meet a certain “minimum” level of attractiveness, or who seem particularly feisty. Neil Strauss, a famous PUA and author of the bestseller The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists, once wrote that:
When you give a woman who’s often hit on a generic compliment, she will usually either ignore the remark or assume you’re saying it because you want to sleep with her.
When you tease her and show her that you’re unaffected by her beauty and demonstrate that you’re out of her league — and THEN let her work to win you over and ultimately REWARD her with your approval, she will leave that night feeling good about herself. Like something special happened and she connected with somebody who appreciates her for who she REALLY is.
In short, a neg will buy you the credibility you need to sincerely compliment her later.
That said, I don’t necessarily advocate negs; they are in many ways a temporary patch to stick onto your personality while you learn to possess real confidence and strength of character.
Although this is a manipulative approach, it is not inevitably harmful. It also is not limited to the sphere of sexual relationships; humans often pretend not to care what other people think, and consistently attempt to be taken seriously by others. Additionally, for many people, flirting involves a certain amount of strategic ambiguity and plausible deniability, and negs are a useful tactic for that kind of game. Not everyone likes playing such tacit and confusing games, but many people do.
However, this is all cute and mild compared to how some PUAs talk about negs: some cite the neg specifically as a tactic to make the girl feel bad.
A well-known PUA who goes by the name of Tyler Durden once wrote that: “You use self-esteem negs to lower the target’s self-esteem, and crave your attention to re-validate herself.” Similarly, an especially pitiless PUA blogger who is sometimes described as “the Darth Vader of PUAs” writes that:
The best negs are those which are conceivably meant as compliments, but which linger in her psyche for hours afterward, undermining her self-conception and encouraging her to qualify herself to you [i.e. encouraging her to explain why she’s worth your time]. … [A neg] infiltrates a girl’s subconscious so that she spends more mental energy analyzing her worth than she does analyzing yours.
One commenter adds to the above blogger’s words that: “So long as you have a woman auditioning for you, power remains where it belongs — squarely in your pocket.”
In other words, a person who feels anxious and unworthy will be easier to control. These cruel PUAs have learned the same lesson as thousands of people in abusive relationships.
Here is an especially instructive quotation from the comments on “Darth Vader’s” blog: “[Women] really are insipid, vapid airheads. If it wasn’t for the pussy, there would be a bounty on them.” That statement is interesting not just because of its hatred, but because of its fear. After all, no one puts a bounty on targets that are not dangerous. The most misogynist corners of the PUA subculture not only discuss ways to aggressively manipulate women; they also paint women as selfish, deceitful and hazardous.
The various approaches to negging highlight both the different shadings of opinion across the subculture, and a particularly important distinction among PUAs themselves. Some of these men genuinely do enter pickup artistry out of a desire to connect to women. As one PUA told me, “When I first looked at PUA stuff, I was like, ‘This is so sleazy and gross.’ But I’d never had a girlfriend, and I kept telling myself, ‘Dude, you are lonely and miserable and you don’t want to die alone.’” On the other hand, many PUAs become PUAs because they want unilateral power and control over women — and many PUAs attempt to justify this through narratives and jokes that encourage fear and anger against women.
* Footnote: I will link to this “Darth Vader” blogger, but I preface the links with a statement that — while he is very intelligent — he is blatantly cruel and misogynist and is recognized as such even by some other men in the pickup artist community. As the seduction coach Mark Manson once said to me, this blogger is “pretty much as bad as it gets.” Also, I have saved copies of the “Darth Vader” posts I cite — although this precaution is a bit of a formality, since I doubt he would have the sense of social responsibility to delete his evil posts even if he recognized that they’re evil. On the other hand, “Darth Vader” once deleted a post in which he acknowledged that he had committed partner violence, so perhaps even he has limits on what he is willing to admit in public. Or perhaps he was merely afraid of legal action.
With that preface, here are the “Darth Vader” citations:
2. The comment by a reader of his blog that said, “If it wasn’t for the pussy, there would be a bounty on [women].”
—Photo Alaskan Dude/Flickr


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[…] found out that the blood was a result of abrasions on my cervix. He use a tactic called “negging” in order to get into my figurative panties. (This is a new term that I recently discovered […]
The method works btw but it needs time and devotion for it to work.I am a pick up artist 4 years,and still counting.The first year was awful tho i was rejected so many fucking times that i couldn’t count.You guys can’t blame the pua community,you have to admit there are guys who need help desperatly. Sincerely Nikki
Trust me, but look to thy own heart- Irish proverb
Since it’s so easy to invent a pop evo bio theory to explain masculinity, I thought I’d give it a shot. Here goes: The men described as “beta males” tend to be the ones who are most influential in shaping the overall culture. They tend to be the artists, writers, movie producers, and advertising creatives. They tend to be the people shaping the culture that men live in. It is actually the beta males who are in control, contrary to what alphas think of themselves. What we “betas” have done is convince the silly “alphas” that they are in fact… Read more »
I dont believe there is such a thing as pure alpha or pure beta, you sound to me like the kind of guy with a victim complex news flash I wasent that popular in high school either but I am a quiet snobby guy and I learned that the results of my attitude werent great and that nerd rage is fruitless. My problem with pua is trying to fool a woman into lettiing you fuck her If some guy tried that on my sister I would probably enjoy watching him fuck off. A girls heart is not your dick, its… Read more »
Yes, many PUA techniques seem to require lying and emotional manipulation. Often the practitioner is trying to hide his ulterior motives. I just don’t think that the women being lied to are as fooled as the PUA’s think they are. I’m guessing for most women being picked up they know that they’re being picked up. I seriously wonder how many of those women are really thinking, “I thought he loved me and we were going to start a long-term relationship. I had no idea he was just interested in sex. Oh, how silly of me!” It’s hilarious that a pick-up… Read more »
On the one hand, I don’t know because I’ve never used PUA techniques and I’ve never been in a situation where a PUA used any techniques on me. On the other hand, I have plenty of straight female (and male) friends, and that’s what I’m forming my opinion off of. Basically, no one is fooling anyone. Generally speaking, a woman who goes to a pub/bar/club and goes home with a particularly smooth-talking guy knows full well it’s a one-night stand. I’m sure there are naive individuals out there who do get duped, but for the most part…everyone’s well aware of… Read more »
One thing I find problematic with much of the PUA approach is that the whole concept of “seduction” is erroneous. It’s like a pick-up artist is actually convincing a woman who doesn’t want to have sex to change her mind and make her want to have sex. It seems to assume women do not really have any agency or any control over themselves, and seems to suggest they are pretty easily manipulated. The article of faith seems to be that women are so easy to manipulate that you can seduce them even against their better judgment and can therefore convince… Read more »
clarise thorn looks pretty. pretty irish…. see? total neg. the safeword is.. marry me! summer and lightning at reverbnation im the dude with the guitar!
haha. I AM part Irish … I had to wear headphones in the street yesterday to ward off the fratboys
These guys who teach this stuff were all clearly nerds in high school who lacked charm and social skills, me and my friends got all the girls while they watched. Now they figured out that you can make money off of desperate guys who want to get laid and you can tell them anything. Lying to women is not sexy, being a man who is honest and works hard is. Why would you spend all that energy lying and manipulating a woman just to fuck her? Ive slept with enough women to know that if you dont trust who you… Read more »
you know many lonely men seeks more than just sex? I can relate to many guys who enter PUA community because I was there too. I was a lonely, shy guys in high school. Many guys and girls said I’m handsome but I was too shy to approached a woman back then. I was really lonely and needs a relationship so I seeks advice from PUA. Thanks to some PUA advice on internet, I could have a relationship with girl I like. I didnt lying and manipulating her. And I dont want sex, I just want a relationship. Its maybe… Read more »
[…] article was originally published in three parts over at the Good Men Project. I’m really close to finishing my eBook Confessions […]
[…] the first and second sections of this article, I wrote about some distinctions among pickup artists […]
[…] I just published a three-part article on the Good Men Project about it, actually: here’s Part 1, here’s Part 2 and here’s Part […]
I think Neil Straus is partly right and partly wrong about why “negs” can be better than regular compliments. An attractive woman is going to have lots of guys giving her generic compliments about her beauty while totally ignoring who she is as a person. She learns to associate the two. So the way to get to her is to tell her something she hasn’t heard a million times, this can be faux-adversarial teasing or it can be something more mild, it can even be a compliment as long as the compliment isn’t appearance-related. It’s not about who has to… Read more »
[…] I discussed in the first part of this article, some pickup artists (henceforth PUAs) get into the seduction community because they feel a lot of […]
Why even cite non-sources like this Vader character..? He’s obviously self-centered, immature, and bragging to the world about his abusive exploits. This kind of thinking & behaviour are about as far removed from anything that could be called ‘relationship skills’ as Charles Manson is from reality.
We can’t have good without evil. The abusive & deranged element will always exist… and it’s always been fairly easy to just ignore these clowns and the sideshows they live-out.
Charles Manson, very tragically, actually exists. He remains a part of our shared reality, in that A) the man still resides in prison, B) that the effects of his crimes will be felt by his victims’ (those who survive) and their families for the rest of their lives, C) and that his story is still invoked as a metaphor for hatred-fueled violence of unbelievably gruesome horror. I appreciate Thorn’s introduction to a community that I had always ignored because I think they sound like a bunch of sociopaths. I am reminded that it’s a good idea to know how even… Read more »
Even worse, this “Darth Vader” fellow is giving a bad name to every man writing into blogs under a pseudonym. People might get the idea that men writing under fake names are trying to hide something. What a terribly misleading idea. Dispense with that stereotype immediately.
I’m looking forward to the next installment. My much too late commentary on comments is that most men (not 51%, but 95% probably) in the 12-32 age range are more than happy to date their peers. Men in the seduction community in this age bracket are not solely targeting the most physically attractive 10 or 20% of their peers. I’m going to speculate that the seduction community has a median age around 26 or 27. It’s probably composed of a lot of young guys (and some lesbians) who know they are lagging in sexual partner and girlfriend numbers and want… Read more »
I wish I had seen this article in time for the high-traffic period, but even so, I’m struck by how circular this debate is. I don’t think you folks even disagree as much as you think you do. But it’s a matter of semantics. Of course no woman would CONSCIOUSLY be attracted to a guy who is an asshole — because if he seems like an asshole it kills the attraction. The point for a man is to have the courage to polarize people around you, such that you arouse love (“He’s hot!”) and hate (“He’s an asshole!”) For all… Read more »
I’m New Here, I see you assigning some views to feminism that I think more actual feminists than just me will agree are not actually tenets of feminism. 1. Feminists include women who dress in ways that you find sexy. It doesn’t mean they dressed for *you*. It also doesn’t really tell you anything about her personality. It only tells you what she is wearing. 2. Feminists don’t all have the same beliefs, including around the role of biology in human behavior. 3. Feminists don’t “crave” “privileges” associated with males. What we want is for women and men to be… Read more »
“Quick question for you. Who has the most opportunity for sex? Nice guys or Jerks. Are women more likely to throw themselves at nice guys or jerks? Answer honestly.” Depends on how you define nice guy. I have known plenty of assholes who have lots of trouble with women. And I know plenty of nice guys that get plenty of women and have plenty of sex. And I know that girls throw themselves at these nice guys. I know one guy and he is extremely nice, reasonably good-looking, less than average height. He has had female roommates who have tried… Read more »
Wilson from House is a very bad example of a nice guy when you are trying to argue that there are plenty of very nice guys who are doing extremely well with women. I suspect that there are two reasons why many women say they find the character attractive 1) He is actor-quality reasonably good looking, 2) he is famous and lots of other women talk about how attractive he is. Even without the burden of being a real average nice guy who lacks these two qualities, Wilson is not very successful in sexual relationships with women. I think you… Read more »
Wilson is wormy acting, I suspect that’s why. He whines a lot.
I think Hugh Laurie is hot and I like him best in shows that show off his Brit accent. The blondie is hot, funny and goofy. Australian yes? Omar Epps is hot but his character is an ass. I like Cuddy personally. She’s sexy and bitchy.
Also, it’s a fictional show. Is Robert Sean Leonard successful with women? He’s married I think and has a child.
I can see why how you might find Pick Up sites a bit on the demeaning side. I’ve found there is a period of necessary discomfort that most women will likely have to go through upon encountering such information. Judging it on face alone, the intuitive response most women will have is that game is adversarial to a woman’s interests. I mean, I’m a woman. Why the hell would I like men getting advice on how to better access my pussy? These contentious were definitely going through my mind as I initially poured over many of their posts as well,… Read more »
Speak for yourself, not all women are attracted to as5holes.
Women do like men who are relaxed, confident and engaging, who have passions and interests in life, and don’t act like doormats. Is that a surprise? Those are the kinds of people who are more popular in all contexts.
Hi Jill
You are strawanning PUA
“Asshole game” is only one strain of it – and there is scientific evidence that the dark triad of personality traits, is a good short term mating strategy, in other words, many women are attracted to “assholes”.
h t t p://www.mentalhealthy.co.uk/sex-talk/sexology/dangerous-pleasure-why-we-can-be-attracted-to-dangerous-sex.html
Miss Jill, I’m sorry you feel overlooked as a “6”, since I feel MANY men (including myself when I was single) will hapily enjoy the company of a “6” witha sparkling personality over any woman with a higher “number” and the baggage that “number” always seems to bring. Also do not be so sure that a winning personality doesn’t shine like a sequined cocktail dress, either. Remember the movie “A Beautiful Mind”, and the introduction of “game theory”? Russell Crowe’s character “threw out” the hot blonde, choosing the (frankly) equally attractive and interesting girls that the blonde came in with.… Read more »
I disagree very strongly. Not all women are attracted to “selfish, aloof, asshole-ish guys”. First of all, those characterizations are vague and mashed up. People who are aloof have many reasons for being that way, not just because they’re ***holes. Selfish ***holes are attractive to two kinds of women: Young women who mistake that behavior for some kind of ‘strength’ (primitive thinking at its finest), and those women who have been abused by their fathers as children are far more likely to respond positively to creeps. (And those *are* creeps, and not ‘manly’ men.) The common misconception that women like… Read more »
I’m talking in terms of averages, obviously I can’t say this applies to ALL, but most women respond to aloof/asshole game VERY well. No, it’s not t just women who were abused or have daddy issues, a lot of very beautiful women who have led nothing but charmed lives. This is one of the talking points feminists often like to use to disparage game. There is a reason why game is so effective. You can be the exception all you want, but it doesn’t discount the hordes of women who simply can’t resist a slightly elusive, devil-may-care, aloof, confident guy.
Aloof and confident =/= as5hole.
That said, a lot of the very beautiful women that I’ve known have low self esteem. They know that they are valued primarily for their looks and not for who they are, which is very demoralizing. The healthiest women I’ve met in my life tend to be average looking but they don’t stress about it too much. They know they are valued for their character and personality, which is empowering.
Should have said, aloof and confident does not NECESSARILY = as5hole.. Guys who are not as5oles can be a little aloof, confident and so on. As5holes treat people badly, non as5holes don’t.
We operate in a societal model that places ALL women’s value on their looks. I don’t know what kind of good looking women you know, but the ones I’ve come in contact with have a considerably higher quality of life than their plainer-faced sisterhood. I’ve experienced both sides of the coin. Growing up i was unattractive. after about age 17 or so I blossomed and my life has been a lot better ever since.
If plain and unattractive women were so high in self esteem, contemporary feminism wouldn’t even exist.
Oh, so now you are falling back on the old stereotype that feminists are ugly. Well this discussion is over.
@Diem “We operate in a societal model that places ALL women’s value on their looks. I don’t know what kind of good looking women you know, but the ones I’ve come in contact with have a considerably higher quality of life than their plainer-faced sisterhood.” This is only really true of people (i.e: not just women) who are within the same social strata: i.e. yes the prettier or more handsome lawyer will probably have a lot more opportunities than unattractive lawyers but it is still better to be a fat ugly lawyer of either gender than to be a beautiful… Read more »
Actually you forgot the third type of women: woman who are aloof assholes themselves but I digress….
Actually….
The common misconception that women DON’T like jerks BUT nice guys is an excuse used by various people to rationalize whatever behaviors they’re rationalizing based on the agenda behind the peddling of the well-worn myth.
Quick question for you. Who has the most opportunity for sex? Nice guys or Jerks. Are women more likely to throw themselves at nice guys or jerks? Answer honestly.
Diem says: “Now the men who treated me like I was wholly irreplaceable, who complimented me often, supplicated to, and doted over me were the ones I essentially used to pass the time until a better prospect came along (mind you I wasn’t necessarily conscious of this at the time). These men were naturally easily dominated by me and I often got my way with them. They were also the ones who spent the most money and got the least sex.” And probably got the least exuberant sex from you too, I would bet. Quite frankly I think if some… Read more »
PUAs are the ultimate feminists. Their entire world revolves around pleasing women.
Exactly, I always wonder why PUA’s don’t see that about themselves.
Because plenty of them seem to be outright misogynists? Because things like LMR aren’t based on pleasing women so much as themselves? Ditto MLTRs?
It’s not disputed that this stuff is used in both well-intentioned and malicious ways. I don’t see the point of pretending the malicious part doesn’t exist, and that all PUAs are anything close to resembling ‘ultimate feminists’.
Well, yes. I read Forweg’s comment as being sarcastic (maybe I’m wrong about that) in that PUA’s focus excessively on women, meeting women, what women want, manipulating women, analyzing women, etc. etc. etc. Yet they claim it’s all about male empowerment! Maybe “their entire world revolves around PLEASING women” isn’t the right way to put it. Their entire world does seem to revolve around women, though. The idea that this empowers men seems kind of laughable.
Jill,
Please read Athol Kay’s website.
PUA tactics are simply a tool. They can just as effectively be used to keep the heat in a marriage (maybe even save it).
This article (and many more) are truly female friendly:
ht tp://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/01/work-l-spot-she-will-beg-you-for-more.ht ml
I especially like the pictures at the bottom that contrast the over-worked wife who fell asleep on a laundry bushel and the hot sexy wife in lingerie on the bed as an explanation of why men should do more housework.
PUA tactics can be positive for both men and women.
Actually only their entire sex life revolves around women… which makes a bunch of sense if you were a heterosexual man and interested in having a vibrant sex life. You do realize your female privilege gives you much better access to sex than the typical man right?
Access to more sex isn’t automatically a good thing.
Do some research about how many women are so lucky as to have orgasms, provided they’re lucky enough to find a partner willing to invest the time and energy into helping them get there.
Ahh the “more money, more problems” excuse that the rich always give. Sorry but access to sex IS automatically a good thing.
Having an orgasm isn’t luck. The vast majority of men are more then willing to help a woman out… but then you would have to ask, and that would ruin the whole dating dynamic that you love so much.
And seriously women don’t choose sex partners based on willingness to please, otherwise the shy, nerdy guys would be killing it.
Just cut the crap, already.
Do some research. Your awareness of female orgasmicness is lacking.
As for nerds, lol, that’s all I sleep with. Always preferred shy nerds, and I’ve been in a very loving and satisfying relationship with one for over half a decade now, but thanks for the assumptions. Always amusing. 🙂
Research??? LMAO. Says the one who thinks “luck” causes female orgasms.
As for nerds… I’m glad you like them, but let’s not pretend that the majority of women view geeks as the most desirable men and thus give them the most action.
Like I said. Just cut the crap.
That may be true for really attractive women. However, the majority of women are not the super hot babes that PUA’s are chasing after. Women who are not conventionally attractive, older, too smart, nerdy, have weight issues, etc., get ignored and struggle just as much as men do to find positive attention from the opposite sex. Unfortunately, in some ways women have it worse than men. We can’t make up for physical inadequacies through any kind of psychological self-improvement like PUA training. Sure, there are certain parameters we can control. If I’m overweight, I can lose weight. I can buy… Read more »
Do you even know what makes a woman a 6? Do you know what a 6 gets a woman in terms of sexual attention from men? Obviously you don’t because of the things you list ONLY weight is included in the female sexual attractiveness rating. And yes 10’s are very highly sought out, but it’s not as if 7’s, 8’s, and 9’s don’t get way more attention than they can handle. In fact they get so much attention, that they complain about being sex objects. Getting a 6 is about as difficult as getting a C in high school. Men… Read more »
I was using 5-6 to mean an average looking woman. 7-8 would be an attractive woman, -9-10 would be very attractive. Sure, a guy can “get” a 6. Maybe that’s as easy as getting a C in high school. Not sure that is responsive to my point, I’m not talking about how easy it is for a guy to score with a less attractive woman, I’m talking about the woman’s point of view. Average looking (or below average) women have a tough time. Unattractive women are invisible to men; it’s like they don’t exist.
I thought it was clear from context, but oh well. By “getting a 6” I was referring to how easy it is for a woman to do what it takes be ranked a 6. And no, a 6 doesn’t have a tough time getting sexual attention from men. The average woman isn’t a 6 though, because of American obesity. A healthy BMI and a C cup would put the vast majority of women into the attractive category and would garner her lots of attention. Unattractive women are indeed invisible to men, but it’s much, much easier to be a sexually… Read more »
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by “getting” a 6. When I was in my 20’s, I considered myself average looking. Maybe a 6. I am 5’9″ and I was a healthy BMI at that age for my physical build (I’m part Swedish) — 145 to 150 lbs– with a C cup chest. However, I wasn’t strikingly beautiful by any means. I got very little interest from men who always seem to prefer the cute petite types or (if the liked tall women) the delicate willowy types. So yes I struggled as for attention as much as any so called… Read more »
Yeah, there’s a hint of truth in this. When I first read The Game I didn’t think anything like “cool, now I have the power to manipulate women!”. I thought more like “oohh, so this is how women want me to behave”.
Isn’t it ridiculous the lengths men will go to to have sex with an attractive woman? I’m glad I made enough money to simply pay for the company of beautiful women. Some of the best money I ever spent. That said, there is something to the theories underlying the PUA approach. Their studied approach to how to engage women has something to it. Something to it indeed. I’ve read “The Game” and used some of the insights gained therein. For my part, when I first started on path to bedding hot women,$240 to $300 an hour was a far more… Read more »
Oops! No censorship tonight! Shocked?
Roxxy is here now and can be yours for $7,000 (though she does look a little trampy):
http://www.gizmag.com/roxxxy-us7000-sex-robot/14063/.
Thanksgiving family dinner will never be the same again…
I dunno, I followed the link and found that at least ONE of these souped-up sex-toys looked kinda like a mildly frumpy housewife TRYING to look trampy….
Besides, isn’t looking “trampy” the whole point of a “sex robot”?
Maybe married men want the “mildly frumpy housewife TRYING to look trampy” look? I dunno.
Okay, now that’s jus’ funny as hell….and TRUE. (Married Man sense….TINGLING…!!!)
I can see it go down with “Mrs. Frumpy” walking into the livin’ room inna housecoat and slippers with curlers in her hair while her hubby’s watchin’ the news.
Suddenly the curlers explode off her head, she yanks off the housecoat revealing a black-lace “I-Mean-Bi’ness” lingerie get-up, slips into stilettos she hid behind the chair and defiantly says as she applies hot red lipstick:
“C’mere you lucky sonofabitch, I’m gonna rock your world…!’
ROTFLMAO
I’ma Bad MAN…see what you made me say, mjay?
I think I just successfully answered the reason “sex robots” have quite a long ways to go just yet…particularly for a 7-grand price-tag.
What I find fascinating about these beta males that believe in evo-psych and want to become PUA is that they don’t want their equivalent, a beta female, they believe they are entitled to have a swimsuit model. And then they bitch because they cannot get one.
That’s the thing. I don’t engage in a campaign of psychological warfare to attain George Clooney-look-alikes (or I guess since there’s a hearty dose of evo-psych here, spendalikes). I have a long history of dating people at about my attractiveness level who are about as successful at work/school. But then, my goal in dating someone is to have somebody around I enjoy having sex with who I also enjoy spending time with. It is not to make my brodude friends praise me for banging some really hot chick. I really think that sexual competitiveness with other men has a lot… Read more »
Ladything
” don’t engage in a campaign of psychological warfare to attain George Clooney-look-alikes”
You likely have a wardrobe and bathroom full of tricks and cheats. The likelihood that you are not wearing a female trick designed to inflate your perceived sexual market values right now is slim.
I think it’s very normal for men who feel sexually insecure with women to think that the social display of femininity is aimed at them, but realistically women are not mate-seeking the vast majority of the time that they are engaging in beauty rituals. They’re attempting to fit in socially – to for instance not be thought of as slovenly at their workplace, or to dress in a way that minimizes the chance that their friends and family will think they’re fat. The primary motivation for most women in how much time they put in in the morning is not… Read more »
Hi ladything
Its also very normal for women to engage in sexual shaming. Women competing with each other in the beauty stakes and also sexually shaming, are about reproduction. My point that out to you was rooted in pointing out the one eyed nature of the female critique of male PUA.
Anything that exists in male PUA subculture, has an established mainstream equivalent in female culture. Its just so much part of their culture, if they aren’t doing it, they are the odd ones out.
I think it’s very normal for women who feel sexually insecure with PUA’s to pretend that the social display of femininity is not aimed at men.
If a heterosexual woman is single, she is dressing to attract men within the guidelines of the environment. While work, gym, and party clothes are all different, the abundance of sex signalling in each outfit type is obvious.
Indeed. It does seem like those who are the most focused on looks (or income) aren’t interested in people so much as they are things. Women as sex objects or men as wallets. Pretty distasteful either way.
It should be noted that cross-culturally the more earning potential a woman has on her own, the more likely she is to rate “sense of humor” as an important quality in a mate.
ahhhh….some of the most delightful, encouraging comments to be found are the shortest…!!
Miss Ladything, I’m sure that your comment gives hope to “beta males” across the country who must depend on wit and some charm for successful interaction with women, rather than looks…!
I love your “handle”…! You obviously have some wit and charm workin’ in YOUR favor as well…!
“‘Sides, it was a GAS gettin’ to use the phrase “Miss Ladything”…!
So that means high earning women are more likely to have casual sex with clowns, right?
no more mr nice says: “What I find fascinating about these beta males that believe in evo-psych and want to become PUA is that they don’t want their equivalent, a beta female, they believe they are entitled to have a swimsuit model. And then they bitch because they cannot get one.” I’ve done some reading of citizen renegade, and actually a lot of the comments I see from the posters is that they would rather have a LTR with a 6 or 7 that was stable dependable loyal woman then a 9 or 10 that was a drama queen or… Read more »
no more mr nice guy wrote: “What I find fascinating about these beta males that believe in evo-psych and want to become PUA is that they don’t want their equivalent, a beta female, they believe they are entitled to have a swimsuit model. And then they bitch because they cannot get one.” This phenomenon makes a bit more sense if it’s viewed as related to general issues of social mobility. IIRC, that was one of the ways in which the basis of/need for pickup was described in the early pages of the 2nd edition of the Venusian Arts Handbook —… Read more »
This movement is desperate need of a schism. A ‘pick up artist’ is by definition not looking for a relationship. Anyone using these techniques to simply get to know women and find a relationship is not a ‘pick up artist’. Those seeking “multiple long-term relationships” (having more than one girlfriend at a time, for obvious reasons, casual sex, etc. – IMO those seem to be actual PUAs.
The movement was pioneered by the “PUA,” but many ordinary men are using the knowledge from this field to have better relationships. See Athol Kay, author of Married Man Sex Life. Any power, any tool can be used for good or evil. It’s possible, even beneficial to use this information to have better relationships.
The only PUA I’ve actually known in real life stated those as his goals. Maybe the empty vessels are just making more noise?
Dear Ms. Thorn, I find it interesting that you reference Tyler Durdan as one of your two sources for your two negative sources of “negging!” Of course what you failed to mention was that Tyler Durdan is famous in the “pick up community” not the “seduction community” (that would be Ross Jefferies and his followers) for amog: basically lowering the self-esteem of other males around him. So it would be suffice to say that Tyler Durdan isn’t a misogynist but rather a misanthrope. This fact is alluded to in the book “The Game” by Neil “Style” Strauss. Of course you… Read more »
Most of the PUA industry is a scam. These guys are lying or exaggerating their success. There’s a forum called sosuave.net where half of the posters are virgins (they have polls about it) and most of the others never had a girlfriend. And I’m sure it’s the same in most PUAs forums. This is specially the case for Roissy/Heartiste because he’s a liar and his fan-club is composed of angry guys that cannot get laid – most of them make up stories. In the past he made a posting saying he seduced a woman and had sex with her in… Read more »
Interesting article, but sort of mercenary and weird to include a me-so-sexy picture above it. Anyway, this whole PUA thing is really just a hack of a woman’s psychology by allowing her to create a fantasy around you. the PUA approach basically swan dives into the world that a woman creates for herself, giving you tools to break her ritual of rejecting men based on some list, create conflict that draws her interest and desire for attention, then leave enough vacant narrative for her to manufacture her own romantic fantasy. Check out the movie “The Tao of Steve” – basically… Read more »
PUA tactics are like “The Rules”, except they are less harmful, as “The Rules” are used to legally and financially enslave a man/success object/financial resource, while PUA tactics are used to bring pleasure to both parties and enslave no one.
http://xkcd.com/800/
Precisely!