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Rick Rosner is a personal and professional friend. I interviewed Rick in an extensive interview on In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, which came to about 100,000 words. Rick claims to have the world’s second highest IQ. He is a member of the Mega Society and was the journal editor, as well Errol Morris interviewed him for the TV series First Person. This is part 2 of a series devoted to conversation on women and the future from the extensive interview. This series is comprised of excerpts from the In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal interview. Part 2 covers the difficulties in women in science, STEM, American politics, Plato, John Stuart Mill, flourishing, and life expectancies, and more. The next parts will be featured in The Good Men Project.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Many, not all, women tend to have a hard time in science too. Improvements in welfare, access, and attainment continue. Rosalyn Yalow, Nobel Prize in Medicine for 1977, stated:
“We bequeath to you, the next generation, our knowledge but also our problems. While we still live, let us join hands, hearts and minds to work together for their solution so that your world will be better than ours and the world of your children even better.
We cannot expect in the immediate future that all women who seek it will achieve full equality of opportunity. But if women are to start moving towards that goal, we must believe in ourselves or no one else will believe in us; we must match our aspirations with the competence, courage and determination to succeed; and we must feel a personal responsibility to ease the path for those who come afterwards. The world cannot afford the loss of the talents of half its people if we are to solve the many problems which beset us.
If we are to have faith that mankind will survive and thrive on the face of the earth, we must believe that each succeeding generation will be wiser than its progenitors. We transmit to you, the next generation, the total sum of our knowledge. Yours is the responsibility to use it, add to it, and transmit it to your children.
The failure of women to have reached positions of leadership has been due in large part to social and professional discrimination.
The excitement of learning separates youth from old age. As long as you’re learning you’re not old.”
Yalow’s “immediate future” exists here and now.
I observe some tendencies of form: some truth in women choosing non-STEM fields often to explain some of the number differential; decent truth in institutional barriers; a good deal to do with ineffectual programs of action; a great deal to do with lack of female mentors – male mentors appear less effective than women; a catch-22 of desire for more women at the top, need of more female mentors from the top for women at the bottom, but lack of female mentors at the top in proportion to the women at the bottom; some more to do with inflexible tenure-track, differential pay, no childcare on-site, tacit bias for men; and, something never said – too taboo, some small minority of men not liking women; or a variable by implication of the former or on its own, working with them.
Narrowed from the prior question about the situation for women, with some of this in mind, what about the need for opening the arena for women in science more with continued technological and scientific comprehension in the 21st century to succeed in keeping apace with the rapidity of technological change, and scientific discovery and innovation?
Rick Rosner: I don’t know what will draw more women into STEM fields. However, I think that more needs to be done to draw people of both genders into STEM. (A good step might be calling it “math-science” instead of STEM.) I grew up during the post-Sputnik push to educate Americans in science, followed by the laissez-faire 70s.
Now we’re in the era of dumb politics, with large factions backing away from and urging skepticism about science. It shouldn’t take a cold war or a big regular war for the U.S. to be pro-science. If current trends persist, the US will be overtaken by China in terms of percentage of GDP spent on R&D within a decade. Does it matter to the future whether the United States becomes a backwater country? I think so.
American politics is having a bad 21st century so far, but the best values America stands for will be important in tempering the more ominous aspects of the tech wave.
Jacobsen: In the history of men, we have some exemplars, Plato’s philosophy culminated in the considerations of an ideal society appropriately given the appellation “Kallipolis,” or “Beautiful City.”
Few did as much theorization for female opportunity and equality, likely hypothesizing only in light of limitations of power and influence, in the ancient world apart from Plato including the incorporation of equality for women in the philosophical foundations, theoretical institutional operations, and consideration of aptitude and character found in The Republic, there likely exists few, or none, other in ancient times paralleling such depth of female inclusion in society and procurement of education.
Bear in mind, he did not intend the discourse of work related to Kallipolis for the purpose of equality for women, but for creation of an ideal society and people with spores devoted to women in the society.
Just society equated to just individual; ideal society equated to ideal individual; society – in conceptual equivalence to Platonic Form or Idea of “ideal society” – paralleled the individual. Well-ordered society reflected well-ordered individual – man or woman. Germinations from the dialogue on an ideal society in the seminal work The Republic became the seeds for partial, by the accepted canon of ethics today, female equality, most saliently found in the work The Republic.
We find little in the totality of literature contained within the canon of Western, and Eastern, traditions beyond Plato and the ancient Greeks until the explicit work by the bright light John Stuart Mill (1806-1873) – a utilitarian philosopher rooted in the ideas and work of Berkeley, Hume, and Locke – in the hefty essay On The Subjection of Women (1869) – a probable fresh stirp outcropping from the writing of his wife Harriet Taylor Mill’s essay, The Enfranchisement of Women (1851), because the Mills – including some by their daughter Helen – co-authored On the Subjection of Women, where the opening paragraph considers the issue of male & female relations and social institutions from the discerning, acute, and perceptive gaze of the Mills in preparation of probably one of the most complete disquisitions on women and their status in society in their day – one can find these throughout the prolonged essay:
“The object of this Essay is to explain as clearly as I am able, the grounds of an opinion which I have held from the very earliest period when I had formed any opinions at all on social or political matters, and which, instead of being weakened or modified, has been constantly growing stronger by the progress of reflection and the experience of life: That the principle which regulates the existing social relations between the two sexes—the legal subordination of one sex to the other—is wrong in itself, and now one of the chief hindrances to human improvement; and that it ought to be replaced by a principle of perfect equality, admitting no power or privilege on the one side, nor disability on the other.” [Mill, J.M. 1869]
Why little in the way of acknowledgement in history for women other than in some great few jewels? How can men best assist women – and by implication everyone in sum – flourish?
Rosner: History hasn’t been very nice to anybody. About 107 billion humans have ever lived, and the vast majority of these had miserable lives, regardless of sex. Global life expectancy didn’t reach 50 until the 1960s and didn’t reach 60 until about 1980. We live like kings and queens compared to people of a century ago, and we live wretched lives compared to people a century from now.
Standards of liberty go roughly hand-in-hand with standards of living. As humanity has gained control over the world, larger segments of the population have gained some relief from misery. I expect the future to be richer, to have more life-improving tech, and to be more inclusive.
Regressive forces in politics want to maintain gender and racial hierarchies to some extent.
These efforts often masquerade as equal treatment for all, when in fact, treatment isn’t equal. So people get pissed, and they protest, and they point out inequalities and hypocrisy. Bringing unfairness to the public’s attention seems to be the way to get things done.
One sign of progress is that arguments for inherent inequality between genders or among races are increasingly unacceptable. And such arguments should be. I have a saying (which has failed to impress anyone) that the world’s smartest rabbit is still a rabbit. By figuring out how to overcome human limitations, we can figure out how to overcome individual limitations.
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Read (Part 1) by clicking here.
Read (Part 3) by clicking here.
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