Responding to the call from ‘nice guys’ for ethical pickup advice, Amanda Marcotte offers six tips for sustainable dating success.
Recently, Clarisse Thorn admirably tried to pick through the sewage strewn all over “pickup artist” (PUA) communities and find a handful of gems that could be plucked out and proffered to the socially awkward man who finds that he’s not getting laid as often as he’d like. (To which I say, who is?) Clarisse is less cynical than I am on this issue; I think the PUA mentality is too toxic to be polished into something non-misogynist. Even in its best forms, it’s still based on the sexist model of dating where women are selling and men are buying, an inherently sexist model that poisons even the occasional glimpses of common sense.
Still, Clarisse is right to say feminists haven’t really responded to the plaintive cries of self-described “nice guys” who claim they want non-sexist dating advice that works, but are forced to look to PUAs because there is no one else speaking to them. So, in the interest of good faith, I have concocted dating advice for men who swear up and down they are only drawn to misogynist PUA forums and seminars out of desperation and not sexism. Fair warning: this isn’t dating advice for everyone, but aimed at those who claim that they have to use tricks and traps to get laid, because they’re too socially awkward to get laid honestly.
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Be generous about women’s motivations.
PUA communities spend a lot of time disparaging women with words like “shallow,” “gold-digger,” and “childish,” for having what they deem to be incorrect desires. But often, women’s choices make much more sense if you assume women date for fun and companionship, just as men do. If you don’t judge men for wanting sexiness, fun, and ego-boosting from women, then don’t judge women for wanting the same.
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Believe that sex is not a battle.
The PUA model of dating is one where men are buying and women are selling, and therefore men’s job is to try to get as much sex out of women for as little a “price” as possible. This is not only sexist, but exhausting. You have more fun when your friends are having fun, right? Apply the same attitude towards dating, and you’ll become immediately hotter.
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Make a list of traits you’re looking for in a woman.
This doesn’t have to be just for a long-term partner, though you might want different lists for different occasions. Be excruciatingly honest, even if it means writing down embarrassing things like “submissive” or “sexually inexperienced.” Physical characteristics are OK, but it’s more important to talk about stuff she can control, like her self-presentation. Be as specific as possible. If the ideal woman in your mind has a job in a creative profession and knows how to cook, write that down.
Next: Be more like The Situation
.
Fun and companionship comes from friends. Dating is for sex
Wow, what a crock. Being honest, there are some elements of actually useful and clear advice here; but you would have to be an absolute loser with no self-respect to take advice from Amanda Marcotte. It’s just not done. She herself can barely bring herself to go through the motions. She starts off by blatantly insulting any potential reader; she simultaneously defines her intended readership, and humiliates it: her advice is “aimed at those who claim that they have to use tricks and traps to get laid, because they’re too socially awkward to get laid honestly.” This woman always seems… Read more »
[…] Now, I’m gonna take this on another tangent-feminist dating advice… […]
“, but aimed at those who claim that they have to use tricks and traps to get laid, because they’re too socially awkward to get laid honestly.” Actually id like to know how to not be too socially awkward to get laid honestly, if you have advice on that, i was kinda hoping when i got linked to this page that that is what i would find, how to approach a girl i like honestly? I cant speak for every guy visiting these but it feels like im missing something that everyone else knows and understands, like ive entered the… Read more »
[…] a shitty place where xy chromosome hating feminists tell guys how to get laid whilst conveniently ignoring that men are expected to be the […]
[…] hardly get past this one line about what guys need to do in order to get the girls. Summarizing advice by Amanda Marcotte, which she calls “smart and useful” (like she would know), she finishes with this: Find […]
The glance to the art regarding attraction details on five basic tips that will help men and women secure or perhaps improve relationships. That distinguishes between manipulative…Attract and Seduce Women
[…] Yet, feminists consider dating advice and some of its related issues to be incredibly important. Amanda Marcotte has written posts about the need for “non-sexist dating advice”. Any feminist blog from Jezebel to No Seriously What About The Menz? has written a multitude of […]
[…] women are explicitly or de facto pro-game. This includes well known feminists like Amanda Marcotte to Susan Walsh, owner of hooking up stupid. These women can’t be invested in game like a […]
Hmmm
Sources…
[…]here are some links to sites that we link to because we think they are worth visiting[…]…
Why the big concern about men going to the”self-improvement” websites? You can see the expectations
of the women. What did you expect to happen?
In my opinion, the female concern for PUAs is that they (females) can not discern them (PUAs) from true Alphas until it it too late (they have devalued their beds).
This piece fails to look at differences between men and women. We’re not wired the same. At. All. I feel women fail at recognizing our own attraction triggers, we lump ourselves into the group called the human race rather than looking at our biological differences. Men do have a harder time in dating because they are expected to make the approaches and first moves in general. I’ve often been glad I’m not a guy for this reason alone. Are there misogynist men on PUA sites? Yep. Are there misandrist women on feminist sites? Yep. There are also many men and… Read more »
I’m developing a Word Comment filled with great women’s comments on GMP, consider yours included.
[…] others. In 2004 she won the Koufax award for Best New Blog. In April she wrote an article titled Nice Guys: Finish First Without Pickup Gimmickry, in which she suggests ways to be effective with women without using pick-up […]
I have posted this exact same comment at multiple places, hoping some women actually take the challenge. So here it goes again. All you girls giving advice, be it the author of this article, women in the comments section, or anywhere else on the internet, there is a very specific term for you in the PU community – it’s called Keyboard Jockey. In simpler words, people who just talk/post on the internet but never take any action. If you are so confident that your advice works, take on the following challenge. Find a guy in your area/city in his 20s… Read more »
Big Gus – Great post! But I do not see how you expect to receive any cooperation in this from women.
[…] beyond super basic stuff like “approach more women”. I’d more agree with Amanda Marcotte, that “the PUA mentality is too toxic to be polished into something non-misogynist”, […]
[…] have talked quite a bit about dating here at The Good Men Project, from how to meet girls without resorting to pick-up gimmickry, to our recent almost-rant by a female wanting to pay for her own dates. The lesson in all of them […]
If you’re a woman reading this and you want to understand why men find these articles trivializing, insulting and marginalizing of men – I’ll give you the perfect analogy. Let’s say you have a business and want to grow it into a MULTI-MILLION-dollar business. And then you read an article (on building a multi-million dollar business) and it says things like – Think of your customers as human beings, don’t see them as mere cash bags – Don’t be a dumbtard who sells stuff people don’t want – Try to sell stuff that’s not rotten, spoiled and try not to… Read more »
Trouble is, the advice given isn’t written by a woman, as you claim. It is, as the article clearly states, plucked from PUA advice which is wholly formulated by men. They are the ones talking down to you. You seem to have over-reacted a lot and found a way to generate several paragraphs worth of complaints about women as an undifferentiated group out of a totally false premise. I think I know why the ladies aren’t responding to you. It’s because you’re crazy unreasonably and that’s never attractive.
Actually, if you read the article, you’ll see quite clearly it WAS written by a women.
Her name is Amanda Marcotte.
And this article is her dating advice for men.
What confused you, is that this article is a RESPONSE to an article by a DIFFERENT woman (named Clarisse Thorn) and HER article is cherry-picking pickup tips from the PUA community. But, see, THIS article is not THAT one.
Now that this is cleared up, you might want to consider apologizing to AlekNovy for your ad hominem attacks following his quite reasonable and well written response.
AlekNovy, you need a blog! I’m going to say it. Yes, Alek is right. If women could give men advice by telling them what they want, do you really think men could give women advice by telling them what they want? Could you imagine how many guys would say things like: “Girls if you really want a guy, you need to put out on the first date. Show up with as little clothing as possible. In fact! Show up with no clothing at all! That means your exciting! Then you should buy dinner.” There’s a lot of crap that the… Read more »
You hit the nail right on the head! Everything you’ve said here is 100% true in my experience.
God this is all so true. Seems like every article on how to attract women by a woman either provides painfully obvious advice (“have you tried showering?”) or the impossible (“be the funniest person she knows”). Or they demean the man (“you probably suck to much to get a date, try being more interesting first”).
I think the reason many men have turned to the PUA community is because those guys provide implementable tactics. Like, things that a person can actually do, versus just vague notions of “be better”.
[…] I was reading some news sites today when I came over a link to this article (go read […]
[…] or sympathetic to feminism? Why aren’t conspiracy theorists asking questions about why feminists such as Amanda Marcotte are getting involved with advice to pick up women? Because conspiracy theorists wouldn’t know a real conspiracy if it bit them on the ass. […]
Why have someone who is profoundly sexist give advice to a group against whom she is so biased?
This is ridiculous. Amanda Marcotte is a racist, misandrist talking head.
Whether including racist illustrations in her book or spouting off sexist comments about men, this person does not need another outlet to spew her hate.
[…] Marcotte wrote this: Clarisse is right to say feminists haven’t really responded to the plaintive cries of […]
[…] ethical dating advice for men who might otherwise be lured by pickup artistry. Amanda Marcotte responded with a smart, useful article which can be boiled down to three essential maxims: 1) women are your […]
Amanda Marcotte is a young, affluent, White, conventionally attractive professional woman who lives in an upscale part of Brooklyn, New York. Were she not in a relationship she’d have no problem finding a new man – basically, she could just put on a cute outfit, go out to her favorite bar and in short order she’d have plenty of willing candidates to choose from. She has no understanding of how unpopular men experience the dating game, so her advice is useless – she’s never had to struggle to find opposite sex companionship, so she has no idea of what it’s… Read more »
[…] reason she was brought on Bloggingheads to debate the topic of PUAs was because she had written an advice piece at The Good Men Project for men who didn’t want to use PUA teachings to get women. In it she […]