I’ve been noticing a terrible trait among many self-proclaimed “self-aware” men recently.
These are the men who call themselves sensitive, egalitarian, feminist, and open. Those are the descriptors I love to hear, and love when a man embodies.
But I don’t love when said man is so passive that he doesn’t advocate for himself or express what he wants.
An example: I was at a bar and met someone. He approached me and we chatted about the music. He asked me if I was on social media and wanted to friend me on Facebook. I accepted this, but thought it was a poor substitute for simply asking for my number. We messaged a few times and he asked me out for tea. I agreed. He listed his number under the body of the messages, and I thought, “cool.” I mean cool with a period. Cool as in I hardly noticed. In text lingo, that cool could be substituted for “k” or dull-happy-emoji, something as benign as him dropping his phone number in the text but not really asking for mine number or asking me to call him.
The day of our supposed tea came and went without a peep—he didn’t confirm and neither did I. A few days later, I got these messages from him:
Him: Kinda thought we were gonna hang out last week Friday… how’s your week going?
Me: Hey there! I’m doing well…I guess we both dropped the ball on that one.
Him: Yeahhhh…..I offered my number in hopes you would reach out…but social media works as well, I didn’t realize we would still be messaging through FB…I didn’t really think to come back and message you again on those days…but totally cool…I’ll totally take the blame.
Me: Oh I’m dense. I’d prefer people to be direct and ask for my number. I honestly didn’t catch that. Sorry for the mental delay. I guess I’m supposed to give my number now.
Him: Ok, I totally deserved that last message on FB 🙁 You’re right, I should have been more direct. I’ll keep that in mind. How are you and how’s your day going? I really did want to hang out with you and vibe with you.
So… I believe this man is trying to be accommodating, and that’s something I totally appreciate. But, when it comes to dating and relationships, I want a man who makes me feel safe.
As a side note, why did I put myself down? I didn’t do anything wrong. Why was my go-to response a one-down approach? Was it to soothe him for not picking up what he was throwing down (his phone number)?
Here’s another example:
In a prior relationship, my boyfriend would invite me to events or activities like this:
Hey babe, John is having people over for dinner.
And I’d reply: Are you going?
He’d say: Yeah, I guess.
What I was thinking: Am I invited? Am I wanted?
How I replied: Sounds fun, when is it?
Him: Tonight.
Me: Ohhh, ok.
What I was thinking: Is he telling me that he’s going alone or is he inviting me?
What I said: Is this a friends thing?
Him: Of course not.
What I really wanted: Hey babe! John is having people over for dinner tonight at 7. Can you make it? I’d love if you could come with me.
During that relationship, I wanted to feel wanted. I needed a man who would take a stand for himself, for me and for our relationship by expressing what he needed.
You see, when a man provides security, leadership, vision, decisiveness—all traditionally masculine traits—he allows me to go fully into my femininity.
I don’t want to always lead.
I don’t want my man to ask permission.
I don’t want him to be afraid to talk to me or walk on eggshells when it’s time to discuss something. I want him to feel strong in himself so he can express what he wants and needs when it occurs to him, not way after the situation has happened.
Additionally in my (romantic) relationships, when I, a strong woman, am left to make most decisions alone and am asked for permission to do everyday things, I feel annoyed and like I have to take on the masculine role. I also feel parental and it makes the man seem childish. I probably come across as curt and impatient. Not intending to be bossy or condescending, it’s that I want a partner who has an opinion and takes a stand. Then, we can agree or disagree on something. But the wavering—with both of us taking on passive qualities—doesn’t work or allow us to deepen our intimacy.
I see both sides: he’s trying to be communicative and team-like, but it comes across as weak and indecisive. So I get into the masculine aspect—needing to make decisions, feeling like I have to lead.
This boils down to communication—it’s something we all have to ask ourselves: how do we want to be loved and taken care of? How do we handle conflict and get more of what we want?
When many women experience a man who is direct and forthcoming, they immediately fall for him. He seems safe, trustworthy. In that moment, it seems like what you see is what you get. This is why you see women so often turned on by men in power and leadership—in effect, men who are owning their masculinity.
This speaks to a woman’s primal survival of safety.
I may not always be able to accommodate my man, but I’d sure love the opportunity to try—and need his help by standing up and being as clear as possible.
This piece originally appeared on Nina’s Blog.
Photo by Joshua Ness on Unsplash
C-Bob below did a quick gender flip to point out how ridiculous the original article really is.
Good on ya’, C-Bob.
Great article. It helped me to see mistakes I’ve made in past relationships.
Please can you sort out the commenting policy on this site, it’s really dreadful.
Can anyone point me to an article here called “The Type of Femininity He Really Wants”?
No?
How about on any of the progressive sites dedicated to women, like XoJane, Jezebel, and so on?
My point being that the ZEITGEIST (google it) today is that women are fine as they are, but men need fixing.
This piece (and this site) REEKS from that meme.
Well, you could always write a separate article about that if you like
Although, to be fair, this site is called “Good Men Project”, not “Moaning About Women, Again Project”
Jesus, I feel tired of being over-moderated.
It’s how they do things here, Simon. You know…the “F” word.
Just bend over and breathe.
It’s put me off this site. There’s some schoolmarm on a power trip who needs to get out more.
Simon I think we should bring it with the editors here ,the crazy way perfectly decent polite comments are removed.
I’m done. I resent being shut down by some stupid snowflake. I might answer things that anybody might want to say to me on this page, but after that, I’m going to leave you to the MRAs. I’m not interested in what snowflakes have to say. Good luck with your safe space, lol
Well if you would actually talk to people rather than just droning on about how everyone that disagrees with you is a woman hating MRA you might see your comments getting through.
I can only imagine the response to an article with an equivalent of the nugget that appears in this article:
C-Bob
This is the comment of the day:).
Enjoy it while it lasts. It’ll probably be deleted soon enough.
C-Bob, you deserve a ‘comment of the thread’ award. Best comment I’ve read around here in a while!
Now I’m just waiting for Simon to completely miss the point and accuse me of being a woman-hating MRA again, I’ll pre-empt him by saying that my comment is supposed to be deliberately ludicrous and archaic to make a point about Nina’s equally ludicrous and archaic male gendered expectations.
I’d say that in the other groups of men, this behaviour is typically masked by awkwardness or other kinds of sophistry and silliness (we’ve all seen it). In the leftist men, this mask has come off. But the underlying problem isn’t fixed – they just stay wimpy. It’s lame to say that the reason men aren’t real men any more is because of feminism. YAWN! Where have we heard that before? Oh yeah. Pull the string, out comes the little voice … FYI real men don’t blame their weaknesses onto others. OK trying to get that into a comment box… Read more »
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!! This article is everything that is wrong with relationships. She states that she wants a man who is direct and forthcoming but she refuses to be. In her relating the conversation in her previous relationship, she doesn’t say what she is thinking. Did she ever say to him, “honey, here is how I would like potential plans to be shared with me” and then make the request. No one contemplates changing a behavior if they don’t know there is a problem with it. The mind-reading school of relationships never works. She also chooses to put a negative spin on… Read more »
Well said Lesli Doares !
I’m still in the Nina camp.
You would be because men like you try to be all things to all women to prove how much better you are than everybody else and fail because they design their systems to make you fail. If you act the Alpha Male as she demands here, she’ll shame you for using your patriarchal privilege to oppress her. Either way, she isn’t going to sleep with you. You’ll eventually make yourself miserable acting the puppy plaything for the women around you. They won’t like you for it, you’ll just become their emotional punchbag. If you’re happy being a virtual invertebrate, knock… Read more »
This is just the same dead robotic nonsense that MRAs always come out with when somebody pulls their string. Random, irrelevant, nothing to do with anything.
I can see that you’ve got some dim awareness of what the article is about, because you’ve actually summed it up very well. This shows it’s there in the subconscious, but then everything gets shoved through the MRA sausage machine and all comes out the same.
You’re right, the message of the article is “grow a spine”. This is just not a trap: it’s as simple, straightforward, and positive as it gets.
I’ve told you before, I’m not an MRA. I’m not even a right winger. I’m a registered voter for a left wing party in the UK. I regularly donate to charities helping fund education for women in the third world and choose my luxury products to do the same. I strongly admire Malala Yousafzai. What I don’t admire is this faux feminism that wants everything their own way. I believe in true equality and that means holding women to account for their poor actions and poor choices in life. But thanks for your straw man-cum-ad hominem. I fully realise that… Read more »
Men need to take responsibility for the quality of their own lives and their actions. It’s disempowering for anyone to place responsibility on someone else. We’ve all got agency, and power, over what happens to us. MRA types need to step up and use it. Quit bleating about feminism the whole time. It’s really infantile to blame and give responsibility and agency to someone else. It belongs squarely with you. Feminists realised this 60 years ago. It seems this is in a long tradition of left-wing sexism and male chauvanism. It’s a long-standing problem. i.e. civil rights only applies to… Read more »
I do Simon but you don’t know how to give it. You’re also acting the snowflake in being unable and unwilling to accept legitimate criticism of feminism. Calling out a hypocrite who happens to be a woman is not sexist. It’s treating her as an equal. But Nina doesn’t want to be treated as an equal, except in areas where she gets to pick and choose. She still wants her white knight, her leader, her Real Man. She still demands traditional values from men – she even says it outright! Take off the blinkers and see how unhealthy this pick’n’mix… Read more »
A man who lets a woman push him into fitting the mould she has created, to adhere to her ideas of what being a man is supposed to be about, has no spine.
A comment I posted earlier was modded out for some inexplicable reason so to sum it up: – I’m not an MRA – I am a member of a left wing party in the UK – My politics are, and have always been, left-wing in the traditional sense – I financially support initiatives in the developing world to help women get on in life, particularly in education My first problem is with the ridiculous expectations placed on men by women like Nina who do not see how they reinforce the gender norms against which they ordinarily claim to stand. My… Read more »
All Nina is asking is for men to be adults. This is actually a situation that benefits men too.
Simon
If all Nina wants is for men to be adults then she should say so.
When she as a women write she wants a man to lead,she is asking for more than an adult.
That women like men to be adults should not surprise anyone but there are men out there that wants to decide anything and many men see this as “leading” and think they always knows better then a woman how in all areas in life,from what happens in bed,to what cabin to buy or how to best use money…
Nina asks for a man that leads.
She calls herself a strong woman but her femininity depends on her partner being the man? She has dependency issues and this negates her claim to be a “strong woman”
Kim I think you’re talking about a separate issue: egotism, people (men in this case) putting themselves first inappropriately, trying to dominate and take control when it’s not appropriate. Nina says, she doesn’t want to have to be the one who leads all the time. She wants her man just to do his share of the donkey work. There are some men who are content to ride on a strong woman’s coat tails while avoiding all the adult work.
Simon “you’re talking about a separate issue” I guess you are right. Still I have never met any of the men you and she talks about .I have never known one that manage to get into a commited long term relationship by being passive,never doing any work and letting the women do everything. But then I am not living in the U.S. but in a country where women expects equality and men that can not deliver are not desired :). I see the passiv lazy men on TV,read about them but I have never known any man that manage to… Read more »
No, she isn’t. She’s imposing gendered expectations on men (the hint is in the name – the type of masculinity…) and expecting men to take the lead. If anyone is acting like a child, it is Nina in failing to express her own wishes. Here is another clue for you: You see, when a man provides security, leadership, vision, decisiveness—all traditionally masculine traits—he allows me to go fully into my femininity. Lifted straight from the article ^ If that isn’t gendered expectations, I don’t know what is. A second issue is that men probably walk on eggshells around her and… Read more »
Simon Nina brings up many issues .The two I find most interesting is * if the man is not behaving in ways she see as masculine then she can not feel like a woman. * She use the concept “lead” and talk about how she wants a man to lead Since you seems to understand NIna better than that what I do ask you to explain to us how a man can lead a woman during her day. Take four examples of women 1 the stay at home mom 2 the student 3 the woman with health issues that has… Read more »
I’m still shocked an article like this got posted on GMP considering how much they go on about trying to forge a new masculinity, criticise “toxic masculinity” and “The Man Box”. Yet here they are, enabling the gender norms of the Alpha Male.
I would say, think of it this way. A source instead of a sink. A star instead of a black hole. A sensible helpmate she can rely on, instead of a needy idiot who needs cleaning up after. Something along those lines. What Nina says is, “I don’t want to always lead.” She wants him to take his turn sometimes, so that she doesn’t always have to be the only adult in the relationship. That’s the message I take away. I think this site must be moderated by snowflakes (sometimes). It’s starting to bug me. I’m not into being Thought… Read more »
RedPillTime
When did Steve Horseman write or tell us that the man that seek his help with their marriage problem,they are leftist men?
I read most of his articles and can not remember him writing that.
The truth is, today a LOT of cis het men on the left are just p-whipped in the worst way. Steve Horseman, a regular contributor here, makes a damn good living off of that problem.
This is not a men’s problem. It is a PROGRESSIVE men’s problem. Why? Because men who are not particularly progressive just don’t take the excesses of feminism seriously.
It’s only a problem for Nina Rubin’s “woke” crowd, ie the crowd of progressive men who are bending themselves into a pretzel for women, and thus don’t even know what it is to be a man anymore.
Na’uh. It’s a general problem. Probably the *whoever* men on the Left at least recognise it and try to address it. You do realise, Red Pill = Blue Pill? The MRAs are the dried-up husks plugged into the VR headsets, they don’t even know what’s happened, and most of them never will. Mostly, it’s a one-way street, since they’ve been robbed of the very faculties that could ever get them away from that situation and back into the fresh air and sunlight. And they will never know. How could they? How ironic is that? There’s a twist I didn’t see… Read more »
The MRA crown divides into 3 groups: There are the MGTOWs, who just don’t want to be in any relationship with a woman. There are plenty of MGTOW men vlogging on YouTube. Then there are ones that choose to get into relationships with very clear boundaries – such as no co-habitation. They do that for both legal protection and personal preference. And finally, there are plenty of MRA’s who do enter (and thrive) on relationships, including lifetime marriages. A good example here would be Tom Brechlin. The problem with you, Simon, is that you’ve got a bug up your butt… Read more »
You can rationalise it all you want, but there’s something seriously wrong with a movement that turns human beings into plastic pull-the-string dolls. Would I get any more sense out of Tom Brechlin? Somehow I doubt it.
I’ve got a bug up my butt about intellectual dishonesty and blindness. It’s potentially one of the worst things in the world: like driving a tank around with your eyes closed. It’s only a matter of luck whether or not someone gets flattened.
This is why I pretty much stopped responding to Simon.
He is a one trick pony who does nothing but bad mouth and blame MRAs for everything that’s wrong. He’s more of a troll than a contributor that has found a home on a site that already doesn’t like the MRM so he doesn’t have to worry about his comments getting deleted. (But also notice that saying similar things about feminism WILL get deleted around here.)
That says just as much about Simon himself as it does the state of this place.
OK, most of the commenters here have completely missed the point. The fact is that the men Nina mentions overcorrected. They sincerely want to be more peaceful, egalitarian men; so they are acting as far away from “dominant sexist asshole” as possible. Their passivity comes from an attitude of “better act even MORE unlike a dominator than I’d be naturally enclined to do, to play it safe. Because it’s better to go too far and protect myself from criticism, than to not go far enough and feel the shame of not being good enough. Better go too far. Better play… Read more »
Lucy
” being unsure about how to put egalitariasm into action.”
You might be right,or maybe this guy she met was shy ,nervous or not really that enthusiatic about her as she had hoped he was.
I see so many problematic statements in her articles that I don’t know where to start.
But I agree with you that it is difficult to know how to have a romantic relationship today ,and treat the other as an equatl and at the same time know how to create sexual tention ,and seduce the other.
My perspective is that I agree pretty much 100% with Nina, “with knobs on”.
I think it comes down to a simple formula: inner strength + cooperation. On both sides. By strength, I mean genuine, all-round, enlightened strength: not “acting tough”.
The guy that Nina talks about, leans on her too much to be of value to her. He doesn’t step up to achieve the simple things he needs to achieve; he’s a dead loss. That makes him basically weak, leading to her not feeling “safe” – he can’t be relied on when crunch time comes.
All I can say to the MRAs is, if you’re the slightest little bit interested in real life, I suggest you investigate these two concepts: personal agency, and personal responsibility. Alongside those, you really need to add seeing and thinking. Somehow though, I don’t think any of that is going to get off the ground. Let me guess what pre-programmed response you’re going to deflect this with. Am I sucking up trying to get some? Am I a traitor to the male cause? Am I a grown-up? Scratch that last one. Anyway, there’s only about 5 or 6 to choose… Read more »
Hi Nina Rubin
I have one question to you.
Something about this story makes me wonder if you have any experience with living with or being married to a man.
And the man you tell us about here,the man that approached you,asked to befriend you on Facebook,asked to meet you for tea….I wonder if you really felt any strong attraction for him at all?
In a long term relationship (and in bed) he would do just fine !
He does not want to dominate you,and expects you to also be able to express your wants and needs….
Yes, but who wants to share their life with a wet blanket?
Simon, the I do not see this man as someone that will kill all the fun. I am sure men that show zero signs of what Nina Rubin call weakness have higher chance of getting a second date. Women (lots of women do like to be swept of their feelt :)) but what we tend to like while courting can be very hard to live with from day to day, because it easily becomes domination and it is hard to deal with it for many. And frankly Simon,I think the women that can handle a dominating man can also handle… Read more »
The definition of a wet blanket is letting any woman push you into being the person she wants you to be rather than being the person you actually are. Trying to fit into the mould that she sets is the road to losing your individuality.
When you’ve been in a relationship, you will understand.
C-bob
I do not know the expression “wet blanket” and had to look it up .
What you tell us here makes me understand better..
There is too much subtle coercion in relationships, all over. “I won’t love you unless you’re the kind of person I want you to be.” “First you fit in to my social group, second I love you.” “First you flatter me and boost my status, second I love you.” “First, you make me comfortable by resembling me as much as possible, second I love you.” Learning how not to dominate and coerce is hard work. Especially when we see too many examples of coercion “working”… resulting in relationships successfully started or kept. It becomes tempting to jist give up on… Read more »
Lucy M.
:).
Thank you, Nina Rubin, for pointing out once again how stupid men really are (sigh).
Even when they say they’re “woke”, they just don’t have a clue.
They will always need women to tell them what to do.
Or maybe you should get over yourself and be open to what he wants also, and quit nagging him and acting like his mom.
I have to say Leslie, that attitude is every bit as arrogant and self-limiting as the MRAs. If you want someone who shares your outlook on life, marry an MRA.
It’s hard to put being “woke” into practice, but we must keep trying.
We just need to do it smarter than we’ve tried before… and that means talking and listening, *discussing* the best way to be an ally, with the people we want to boost.
Don’t go all Mighty Mouse unless you’re sure that what you’re doing will actually save the day. And how to we do that? ASK the people what the best way to help them is!
“I’ve been noticing a terrible trait among many self-proclaimed “self-aware” men recently.”
>>>
I’m shocked, I tell you. Shocked.
In BDSM circles what Nina Rubin is doing here is called “topping from the bottom”.
The bottom pretends to be the disempowered (read “feminine”) one, while all the while telling the top exactly what to do and not to do.
Now, there’s nothing wrong with doing that kind of thing CONSCIOUSLY – where bother players enjoy that game.
Only, as someone said below, here we are seeing the “law of unintended consequences” play out in a way that is both funny and tragic at the same time.
Simon…yet again? Most of the guys are noting that the article complains about the very issues women spent years demanding men change and now it’s about the fact men changed to much. It’s the law of unintended consequences.
Exactly – blaming feminism for their own behaviour. It’s juvenile.
Simon …. question have you ever managed to be in a long term adult relationship with a romantic partner? ’cause your comments seem to be those of a sub-adult who has failed repeatedly at anything lasting more than a month. All theory and no idea about practical application.
I see that the MRAs are all deploying their Deflecting Mirror Shields, as usual. I don’t think they even know they’re doing it. Those heads are stuck firmly in the sand. Nothing is your responsibility, right guys? Any problem or weakness as a man is purely the fault of feminism/chivalry/women etc. The whole system’s rigged against you. Of course. That’s why you never get anywhere. I hope for your sake you manage to grow out of this rubbish one day, and switch the other 90% of your brain back on. This is a quote from someone who left the [comparable]… Read more »
Shush Simon, the adults are talking now.
Its sad to watch a man grovel just to get some. Grow up Simon.
Deflector Shields <>, deploy random pre-programmed response, thinking and seeing successfully averted, real life still far, far away <>
Thanks, this is good, I get it
“As a man you can be anything you want to be but only with my say so” is the new “you can have our car in any colour so long as it’s black”
I remember seeing a sign in a store full of all sorts of nice things.
It said, “You break it, you bought it”.
Welcome, Nina, to the world you made, and the bois you’re stuck with.
Testosterone free men.
This is what femenist has done to men. It has emasculated them. It had turned lions into pussy cats. This is what the modern neutered male looks like – enjoy.
Chivalry and feminism alike.
Chivalry teaches the disposability of men, any single man is nothing but a cog in the machinery and that he should sacrifice himself for the comfort of women.
Feminism teaches that men are mostly a nuisance (stupid or lazy at best, outright mean at worst), and if a man can’t be helpful or useful to women, he should just move out of the way.
Well you have business people who think that men, women, and children are nothing but a cog in the capitalist machine and are only good enough to work until they are no longer useful anymore. If those groups protest and fight for their rights, then the CEOs gets rids of them by any means.
Teach us to care, and not to care.
Teach us to sit still.
But I don’t love when said man is so passive that he doesn’t advocate for himself or express what he wants. Nina, this is just female privilege in action. I think women need to understand that our whole lives, men are told to put others first – her feelings come before yours, her choice on movie night comes before yours, what she wants from a relationship matters more than what you want. Her choice of home decor, when (and whether) you have children, when you get engaged, when you get married, choice of holiday destination… it’s all about being a… Read more »
C-Bob, you can apply that statement to society where men are told to put society and our various organizations first; otherwise, if you don’t, you are not considered part of the team and we are shamed as being selfish despite the fact that in places like the military and/or in our workplace, our bosses and in many cases, our fellow workers don’t care about their organizations and only use them and the people to advance their own careers. These same people also don’t like it when people start standing up for themselves and then they tried to destroy people’s careers… Read more »
Oh, there are so many places it manifests itself from the micro to the macro. From “ladies first” of letting her order first in a restaurant, opening doors for her to let her go first, all the way up to “women and children to the lifeboats”. From being expected to give up your seat on public transport for a woman just because she’s a woman all the way up to military conscription.
And if I see another dam$ list of all the qualities a woman demands in a man I will scream and you will hear me from the other side of the world.
” I want a partner who has an opinion and takes a stand.”
Right up to the moment his having an opinion becomes “male privilege”. At that point can’t be measured or predicted more than about a millisecond ahead…
It’s probably also a microaggression.
Almost certainly. In any event, he should modify his behaviour on the grounds it might be – better safe than sorry.
Lousy way to have a long term marriage where men give in to the women on anything and everything.
A Guy like Simon will rarely be found in a long term relationship. Even they can’t keep up the required facade that long….. Instead they devolve into the Hugo Schwyzer type and then they manage to find a relationship……one that is deeply damaging to most women.