Editor’s Note: We were grateful to have the opportunity to sit down with Chicago White Sox ace righty, Lucas Giolito, a few weeks ago to talk about a wide range of issues, including how he’s managing through this coronavirus pause (hint: there might be some video-game streaming involved), his path to the majors, including what he’s learned along the way about resilience, self-confidence, hard-work, leadership, and taking care of himself both mentally and physically, his friendship with a young triumvirate of current MLB pitchers, the (hopefully) upcoming 2020 White Sox season, and using his platform to speak out on important social issues.
In his young career thus far, the twenty-five year old Santa Monica native and former first round draft pick of the Washington Nationals straight out of Harvard-Westlake School, has already experienced being both one of MLB’s worst pitchers (in 2018) and one of it’s absolute best (in 2019). In 2018, he had the highest ERA for a starting pitcher in the Majors; in 2019, he was an AL All-Star and Cy Young candidate. As you will see, there’s a lot to be learned from that experience, not only about baseball, but about life.
This young ace’s repertoire includes not only a high 90’s fastball, nasty slider, hook and change-up, but an ability to grow and change, a willingness to learn and lead both on and off the field, and a wisdom beyond his years.
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The Great Pause. So…How Goes Your Quarantine?
Mike Kasdan, The Good Men Project:
How’s it going during this strange quarantine period of having no baseball; and with everyone locked down for such a long period. Where are you spending this time, with whom and how is it going?
Lucas Giolito:
I’m in Davis, California with my wife, Ariana and our dog, Louie. Of course, it’s a pretty strange time for everyone, and it’s weird for both of us too, but thankfully we are doing well. Ariana is in veterinary school at UC Davis. It’s been hard for her to have to do all her practicals remotely; it’s been a lot of Zoom meetings and picking up kits with various medical equipment. I feel really bad for her and people in the medical field in general right now.
For me, being in sports, it’s also a strange time. By April, I’m usually living out of suitcase, packing up and flying 2-3 times a week with my teammates and waking up each morning with a goal or purpose to every single day: let’s go to the field, get our individual work in and then come together and win this game tonight. It’s weird being off of that routine. Of course, I’m doing everything I can to maintain my work, even though I’m doing it solo. I have a pretty good set-up out here.
I’m also having a lot of fun with MLB The Show. That’s been a good distraction. I’ve been a video game guy forever; my Dad was in the video game industry forever, so I grew up loving video games with them being a big part of his life.
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Streaming and playing ‘MLB The Show’ allows me to cross two passions of mine. And its great to connect to all the fans – on Twitch, asking me questions while I’m playing games . . . It’s this whole social experience, and we are also donating the money we make to charity, so its for a good cause.
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This allows me to cross two passions of mine. And its great to connect to all the fans on Twitch, asking me questions while I’m playing games. It’s weird to be able to log on and click a few buttons – now that it’s all set up – and play games, live-stream, talk to people – its been this whole social experience. And we are also donating the money that we make to charity, so its for a good cause.
[Editor’s Note: A few days after our interview, Lucas faced off against Tampa Ray’s ace Blake Snell in the Finals of the coronavirus-inspired inaugural MLB Player’s MLB: The Show Tournament, where thirty major leaguers – one from each team – faced off online. Snell took home the championship. Giolito finished second overall.]
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Growing Up Giolito
The Good Men Project:
Can you tell us a little bit about where you came from; I know you come from a bit of a Hollywood family. What was that like growing up and how did that impact you?
Giolito:
As I mentioned, my Dad [Rick Giolito] was a producer in electronic media realm. Mom [Lindsay Frost] was an actress. I have faint memories of running lines with her and of going to sound stage. She would be doing voiceover work, while I was over in the corner crushing the spread. Now, she’s an artist and works in oil paintings.
There’s obviously a lot of differences between sports and theater, but in both you’re entertaining people and in both its extremely hard to reach to the tip-top of your field. You have to be completely dedicated, almost selfish in a way – asking yourself ‘What do I need to do to improve and get better every day’ – to get to the top.
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You have to be completely dedicated, almost selfish in a way – asking yourself, ‘What do I need to do to improve and get better every day’ – to get to the top. That hard-working mindset was instilled in me from an early age by my Mom.
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That hard-working mindset was instilled in me from an early age by my Mom. She had a successful career acting-wise, and that was because she worked her butt off every day to get there. My Dad was more of the vocal one, driving those values home with me.
And then obviously there are the opportunities my parents were able to grant me. I talked to James Fegan about this a lot for a recent piece in the Athletic, but basically, I was fortunate to be in a very good position from the get-go. Little League. Travel Ball. Both my parents were there at my games and in the backyard. If something broke, I got a new one. Some players don’t have that – they have to do it all on their own and figure out other ways.
The Good Men Project:
You were a phenom from a young age, tall and very hard-throwing, famously touching 90 MPH by age 14, playing for upper level clubs and hitting 100 MPH as high school junior. What is that like, and how do you keep it in check and keep working hard and not fall prey to the downsides of all of that?
Giolito:
From a young age the raw talent was always evident. And that’s what my Dad saw in me, hoping to turn that into a college scholarship or whatever. And I wanted to get better, but I honestly wasn’t good at baseball back then, no matter what my Dad says! I was not good at baseball for a while.
It took me until I was probably 16 years old. Before that I had a lot of raw talent; I could throw harder than most kids. I could hit the ball farther, if I squared it up. But I wasn’t consistent. At all. I’d have games where I would go out there and be “lights out,” and then the third or fourth inning rolls around and I’d have no idea where the ball is going anymore.
I’d have games during my sophomore year of high school where I’d go out there and walk four or five batters in a row and coach would have to pull me in the first inning. It was an interesting process.
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The raw talent was always evident. And I wanted to get better, but I honestly wasn’t good at baseball – no matter what my Dad says! – but I was not good at baseball for a while.
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I lost a lot of confidence that year, after I was thrust into the number one starter role, and then at the very end of that season I had one game where everything clicked. I threw a complete game shutout and got us into the playoffs and it boosted my confidence tremendously.
I remember thinking “Oh, I can actually do this.” It’s not just raw stuff but I have the ability to pitch at a high level. And that’s kind of what put me in the map. That summer, I was throwing really hard, and when I figured out how to throw it over the plate, it really just went from there.
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The California Connection – Giolito, Jack Flaherty, Max Fried, Trevor Bauer, Gerrit Cole … and Tyler Skaggs
The Good Men Project:
I was fascinating to learn about the linkages between you and other pitchers. At Harvard-Westlake School, your high school, you pitched on the same staff as Jack Flaherty and Max Fried, and all of you are now in MLB, all elite young starters. And the UCLA rotation that was to be was Gerrit Cole and Trevor Bauer and you, if you went there instead of to MLB after being drafted. Are you still friendly with those guys?
Giolito:
I consider Jack and Max to be two of my very best friends. That whole experience was awesome. Me, Max and Jack, all very talented, but being together at Harvard-Westlake, we were able to push each other and keep each other accountable.
At the same time, I also have to throw a lot of credit to Ethan Katz, who was our pitching coach there, as well as Matt LaCour, who ran the program. He ran such a tight ship and incredible program, teaching fundamentals and running a program that was like a college program. And I touched on it earlier, how my parents really were able to put provided me with a wonderful environment to achieve success, and it continued on right when we got to the Harvard-Westlake program.
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It is definitely very cool being in the big leagues now and seeing two of my buddies [Jack Flaherty and Max Fried] who we played with when I was younger, and we’re all doing the same thing.
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Ethan coming aboard was so huge. I still work with him in the off-season, and he really helped me turn things around in 2019; I went back and worked with him more closely then, buying into a lot of the things he wanted me to do. But it all started for me when I was 15-16 years old, he kept us all accountable, we worked our butts off.
It is definitely very cool being in the Big Leagues now and seeing two of my buddies who we played with when I was younger, and we’re all doing the same thing.
The Good Men Project:
I also read about your close relationship with Tyler Skaggs, the former Angels pitcher, who was another LA person and someone you had looked up to and had done some training with. I know he passed away last year, and I”m so sorry for that loss. But to read about that and to see those special relationships, those through-lines, that was really compelling.
Giolito:
Tyler had a huge impact on me as well. I looked up to him; he was a few years older and was taking the same kind of pathway I was hoping to take, from Little League and making it all the way to the Big Leagues, first with the Diamondbacks and then the Angels.
I remember when Max and I both signed and went pro, we’re 18 or 19 years old, and that first summer, we get into a work-out group and it’s the same one Tyler Skaggs is in. He was a year or so into his Big League career at that point. So obviously, we are looking up to him.
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I learned from Tyler Skaggs what attitude you need to rise through the ranks and be a starting pitcher in the big leagues- being very focused and driven, working your butt off, not skipping any reps in the weight room or anywhere else for that matter. But at the same time, he taught me to be yourself; don’t think you have to fit some sort of mold.
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He showed Max and I what it takes – as far as effort level and focus.
But at the same time he was so good at keeping it loose. He was bumpin’ music, he was the DJ for our work-outs each morning, he was always dancing in the weight room.
And that – dancing in the weight room – is something I’ve carried forward with me; I’m always dancing in the weight room. My current teammates make fun of me all the time for it, but I’m never going to stop.
I learned from him what attitude you need to rise through the ranks and be a starting pitcher in the big leagues- being very focused and driven, working your butt off, not skipping any reps in the weight room or anywhere else for that matter. But at the same time, he taught me to be yourself; don’t think you have to fit some sort of mold.
And Tyler was the best example of that.
The Good Men Project:
Q: Who are some of your favorite pitchers that you’ve liked to watch, emulate or learn from?
Giolito:
Honestly, I wasn’t the biggest baseball fan growing up. I loved playing. But I wasn’t a stat geek. I wasn’t one of those kids who would come home and watch ESPN and Baseball Tonight all the time.
As I got older, maybe at 15-16 years old, I started to going to UCLA games. And you already mentioned their names – Gerrit Cole, Trevor Bauer – I’d watch them, as well as their Sunday guy, Rob Rasmussen, a lefty. And I would actually sit behind home plate where the scouts sit and take notes on games. Those are guys I liked to watch. Of course that all factored into my desire to go to UCLA, as well.
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The Big Leagues – From The Lows to the Highs and Making The Necessary Adjustments
The Good Men Project:
Was it a tough decision to go the MLB route, when you were drafted in the first round by the Washington Nationals, after you had been heading towards UCLA ?
Giolito:
Not really. 🙂 I always wanted to go pro. The dream is to play in the Big Leagues.
And there was a lot that factored into that decision, the big one was my being hurt and having the blown out UCL.
Obviously, there’s the financial side of it and you also have “Do I want to rehab Tommy John surgery in college and miss a year of college, or as an 18 year old, do I want to rehab under the care of a professional organization?”
And another part of it for me was that Stephen Strasburg had just done it and he had just returned to the Nationals at the Big League level and he’s dominant. So, I was thinking, ‘All right. I kind of want to go the Strasburg route here.’ It was definitely a tough decision and there was a lot of back and forth and it came down to the final minute, before I signed. But that was the route that I wanted to go and it worked out.
The Good Men Project:
You started off your career with the Nationals organization and were traded to Chicago, where you’ve now entrenched yourself as a big piece of their young core. What are your thoughts on the White Sox, heading into the season. From my perspective, it looks like a really interesting blend of young players and vets, and the organization has been very proactive in locking up it’s good young players early in their careers.
Giolito:
I feel great about the team. It’s the best I’ve felt about it.
When I came over in 2017, that was the earlier stages of the rebuild, or whatever you want to call it, and I could tell from the get-go that we had a lot of talented guys in that locker room, myself included. But none of us were really polished, and we didn’t really know what we were doing yet. We just had a lot of talent.
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The blend of veteran presence and guys who have been on winning teams and know what it takes to win, I think that is a huge thing. We have a lot a talent. But a lot of us don’t know nor have we seen winning baseball every day at the big league level.
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It took a few years for the young core – me, Tim Anderson, Yoan Moncada, some of the other pitchers as well – to start to get that experience at the big league level.
That experience is huge, because you’re take your lumps, but once you start to have success, you feed off that. Then it builds even more and you go into each day, each start, feeling good about your level of play. At our different paces – and it took me having a horrible year, or others having a slow build-up – to now getting to a place where the younger guys, we own ourselves and our ability, and we’re playing confidently.
And the Front Office has done a kick-ass job over the last couple of years adding pieces. We picked up James McCann, who has been amazing. Now we have added Yasmani Grandal. That gives us the best catching core of any team in MLB. We picked up guys like Edwin Encarnacion, Dallas Keuchel, Gio Gonzalez. The blend of veteran presence and guys who have been on winning teams and know what it takes to win, I think that is a huge thing. We have a lot a talent. But a lot of us don’t know nor have we seen winning baseball every day at the big league level.
We’ve gotten better as a team, but we haven’t gotten over that hump to where we show up to the stadium every day expecting to win a ball game. For the best teams, that is pretty much how they operate. That is the kind of culture that our skipper has been preaching to us the past few years, and these guys that we brought aboard are really going to help drive that home and cement that winning culture. We just need to get together and play, and the rest will take care of itself.
The Good Men Project:
Let’s talk about 2018 and 2019 and what it was like to experience such highs and lows in span of a single year. To go from struggling and maybe losing some confidence to being an ace at a very young age.
From the standpoint of resilience and improving yourself, how did you make that transition, what was important, and what did you take away from it?
Giolito:
I’d say that the most important thing for me was finding my confidence.
I measure it in two different ways. At one level you have your overall sense of confidence in yourself, at a deeper level. And then you have situational confidence, how you are feeling on a day-to-day basis, when it comes to your job, life, or whatever it may be. For me as a person, that deeper level of confidence is always relatively high. I have a positive mindset, and I’ve always known what I’m capable of. And that was true even in 2018 when things weren’t going well.
But that situational confidence? That was like riding a roller coaster for me. In 2016, I get called up, and its sky high, and then I don’t pitch well, and it goes down, down-up-down-up, traded, and it goes back up, but then I’m putting pressure on myself to prove myself and show who I am and I don’t do that, so it goes down, and then I get called up in 2017 and pitch well, and it goes up, and then in 2018, it skyrockets down. That was kind of like a roller coaster ride, where if you are trying to play baseball at this level and play baseball well and play baseball consistently, you’re not going to have a lot of success if that’s the way that you’re operating.
Its always better to have a more neutral reaction, not take things so emotionally. It’s also very difficult. And it took a lot of work, a lot of reflecting to get myself there.
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My situational confidence was kind of like a roller coaster ride, where if you are trying to play baseball at this level and play baseball well and play baseball consistently, you’re not going to have a lot of success if that’s the way that you’re operating.
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Throughout the 2018 season I wasn’t really buying into a lot of the things that my sports psychologist was trying to help me out with. My mind was always elsewhere. I was always focused on the failure. It took getting hit the face and getting knocked down to look in the mirror and be like ‘Hey, I know how good I can be. But I need to change things to make that happen.’ If I kept doing things the way I was doing, I would have just continued failing, and before you know it, I’m going to have to find a different career path. So it came time let go of what was comfortable and try some new things, go to the people I trust, ask their opinions, see what they have for me, and that’s what I did.
I tried a bunch of weird things. On the physical/mechanical side, I shortened my arm path. I never would have guessed that I would be a short-arm pitcher, but here we are. Strapping this device to my hips and doing dry mechanics with it; a few years ago I would have told you that those kind of things were – the baseball term we use is – ‘eyewash,’ meaning it doesn’t do anything, it’s BS. But that was something Ethan suggested would help me with my lower-half mechanics. And I was at the point of ‘Hey, yes, I will try anything, because what I’ve been doing hasn’t been working.’
Getting into the more mental stuff, it was really buying in to the sports psych stuff, working more closely with our team psychologist, getting more into neural feedback with this company BrainKanix, really training my brain with daily visualization work. All those kinds of things, when you put it all together, I went into Spring Training before the 2019 season feeling more prepared and feeling more confident.
The underlying deeper level confidence was always there, but now I matched it up with that day-to-day where I’m waking up with a purpose, less dwelling, less emotional reactions, and more focus on what am I doing today to get better.
The Good Men Project:
It’s so interesting listening to your answer. I know that you’re talking about baseball. But what you’re describing is growth that people go through in all sorts of areas; being able to change something that’s not working and get yourself out of a rut. That’s just really interesting
Giolito:
Baseball, I think is so cool, because its the closest sport to compare life in general. It’s the sport of failure. You get knocked down; you have to pick yourself up. You have to change things. You have to figure it out.
In football, you can have this illustrious career, and it’s all physical. If you’re a top athlete, you’re probably going to be successful.
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Baseball, I think is so cool, because its the closest sport to compare life in general. It’s the sport of failure. You get knocked down; you have to pick yourself up. You have to change things. You have to figure it out.
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In baseball, the best athletes don’t always rise to the top. So much of it is mental, especially at the big league level. A lot of guys can make it, but to stay there? It takes a different level of thinking.
It took me a while to figure that out, but I’m not going to stop learning and continuing to grow.
For me I’m just starting to scratch the surface.
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On Privilege, Diversity and Using Baseball as a Platform for Leadership in Social Change
The Good Men Project:
I love that about baseball too.
I also wanted to ask you – I remember reading a great piece the Chicago Sun Times about you using your voice and speaking out on big social issues like immigration and gun control. That’s something we write about often. I think you and I are probably pretty politically aligned. You said you thought your views were probably different than a lot of baseball players, and you have spoken about using your platform to talk about social issues outside the game. I’ve also seen your teammate Tim Anderson, who you mentioned earlier, out there being very outspoken and authentic about race issues. I’d love to get your take on the platform you have and the importance of being outspoken in that way.
Giolito:
For me, recognizing privilege is hugely important.
Being in an MLB clubhouse – especially our clubhouse where TA [Tim Anderson] is the only black player – the way he grew up is completely different from the way I grew up, and that’s true for all the other guys on the team. Yahoo Sports! has a great piece on Tim Anderson’s upbringing and his relationship with his Father. It’s worth checking out.
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It’s important to recognize where you came from, your privilege and the advantages that you’ve had…The least I can do is listen and – not understand because I’ll never understand what that’s like – but be able to take it in and appreciate who they are and where they came from. That’s a big thing for me.
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It’s important to recognize where you came from, your privilege and the advantages that you’ve had – and I had a lot of those – and when I talk to TA, we’ve had a lot of very cool conversations about that.
For me, its important to listen.
Another example is Jose Abreu. Talking to Jose and hearing his story is unbelievable. When I think about what it took for him to get over here from Cuba, to start his career in the United States and support his family, it’s crazy.
I was just this white kid in Santa Monica and I pretty much had everything handed to him on a silver platter.
The least I can do is listen and – not understand because I’ll never understand what that’s like – but be able to take it in and appreciate who they are and where they came from.
That’s a big thing for me.
The Good Men Project:
Indeed, after our interview, Giolito was one of the first MLB players to strongly speak out about the events of this past week, the killing of George Floyd and supporting #BlackLivesMatter:
Giolito:
“It’s time to do better. It’s time for true equality and justice for all Americans…”:
.@ColorOfChange #BlackLivesMatter pic.twitter.com/CgMfsjoCOi
— Lucas Giolito (@LGio27) May 31, 2020
The Good Men Project:
I recently saw Tim Anderson and CC talking about authenticity, diversity, and leadership and encouraging young players and everyone to be a part of the team. They talked about making younger players feel comfortable, rather than hazing them or telling them how to act. Because when you do that then “you get everyone’s best self.”
Thoughts on that from your perspective?
Giolito:
I agree with TA’s sentiment on that, for sure.
I was pretty fortunate – by the time I came up in 2016 not to experience the type of hazing that there used to be more of. Guys were pretty welcoming to me and they wanted me to succeed. If I had veterans telling me to sit in a corner and not talk to anybody, I probably would have lost my mind!
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We have the kind of clubhouse that promotes being yourself and being an individual, not suppressing your personality, because if you do that its going to suppress other things, you’re going to play tight, and you’re not going to feel good when you’re out there, and we want everyone to feel good so we can play well so we can win.
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I think that society changes, baseball is definitely evolving, and we have the kind of clubhouse that promotes being yourself and being an individual, not suppressing your personality, because if you do that its going to suppress other things, you’re going to play tight, and you’re not going to feel good when you’re out there, and we want everyone to feel good so we can play well so we can win.
I think that’s very important, and it’s part of things evolving over time.
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On Training and Arm Injuries in Baseball
The Good Men Project:
As someone who has been through arm surgery and seeing the spate of arm injuries in baseball, I’d be curious to get your view on what’s going on, as well as your advice for younger pitchers and those in youth baseball?
Giolito:
I’ve actually been getting a lot of questions about this. On my Twitch stream some young kid might say ‘Hey my arm or elbow is hurting’ or ‘I might have to get Tommy John; what do I do?’
The first thing is, when you’re younger – and if I had gotten this advice, things might have been different for me – you don’t want to overthrow.
Also, now I didn’t do it, but if I were to do it all over again, one big thing I would do is play different sports in high school. We live in an age where coaches want you to specialize and focus – Fall Ball, Winter Ball, Summer Ball – especially in places like California or Florida. But I wish, looking back, that I had played other sports, even if I wasn’t good at them, just to build athleticism in other areas and to be a more complete athlete. I was very un-athletic for a very long time; it took me until I was maybe 23-24 years old until I began to figure out my athletic side. (And it’s still not great!) But I’ve been able to figure out a few things about how my body works.
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Now, I didn’t do it, but if I were to do it all over again, one big thing I would do it play different sports in high school…even if I wasn’t good at them, just to build athleticism in other areas and to be a more complete athlete.
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Another thing that I think is so important if you’re a young pitcher, or a pitcher in general, is having an arm care routine. We all talk about lifting and exercising, but all those little exercises, the boring stuff that no one wants to do? You’ve got to do that. And I didn’t even know what that stuff was until after I got hurt and I first went to a physical therapy program.
People are figuring out the mechanics of throwing. The science is getting better and better. So kids are going be able to throw harder and they’re going to throw harder when they’re younger. And that’s going to mean more injuries. It is what it is.
So, for me, Tommy John worked pretty well – knock on wood – I’m 8-9 years out from the surgery and the elbow feels great. Obviously I’ve done a lot and I do a lot behind the scenes to maintain my arm strength, using all the science to my advantage. But I would never ever recommend, ‘Oh yeah, just get the Tommy John surgery and get it out of the way. I see people say that sometimes, but I’ve never been in that boat. I think that’s kind of psycho.”
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Talkin’ Some Inside Baseball
The Good Men Project:
When my son, Jacob, who is a huge MLB baseball fan, heard about our interview he passed along a few questions that he wanted me to ask you. This is one of them: What hitter do you fear the most, if any such hitter exists?
Giolito:
There’s no fear. Back in 2018, there was probably a lot of fear. Now there isn’t.
I will say that I dislike pitching to Mike Trout, because he’s the best hitter. The balls that he can hit hard … he does not a lot of holes in that swing, if any. So definitely, I’d say Mike Trout.
[Editor’s Note: For the record, the respect is mutual. Of Giolito, Trout has said, “He’s one of the top pitchers in the league,” he said Sunday. “He’s got good stuff, throws hard, throws his pitches for strikes and he’s got that good change-up.”]
Lucas Giolito, 96mph Fastball (foul) and 88mph Slider (Swinging K), Overlay. pic.twitter.com/SCVOrJH08n
— Rob Friedman (@PitchingNinja) May 24, 2019
The Good Men Project:
The second and final question that my son Jacob asked me to ask you – he’s a big Yankee fan – is … who is your favorite Yankee? I’m guessing it’s probably Gerrit Cole?
Giolito:
So…my current favorite Yankee is actually Tommy Kahnle. We were good friends from when he was with the White Sox. He’s a super crazy fun dude; I enjoy his personality very much.
We were just recently competing in the MLB: The Show, and he beat me the other day on a walk-off home run by Aaron Hicks. It’s all good though. He’s my favorite, because I know him personally pretty well.
As far as my favorite to watch, it is Gerrit Cole. And I did get to speak to Gerrit a little last year in and around All-Star Weekend. That was really cool for me.
The Good Men Project:
Thanks so much, Lucas. Wishing you the best of luck. Like many, I’m hoping that there is baseball is some form, and that we get there. In the meantime, stay healthy and well and enjoy the family.
Giolito:
I’m hoping that we can get something together here soon as well. But at the same time, I don’t want us to do it at the risk of causing more problems in this country. In these times of the pandemic, things are very strange. I’m just hoping that people will be smart.
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Photo Credit: Lucas Giolito Instagram (with permission)
