Trigger warning for rape.
I am convinced that if you look at this boy from Slutwalk NYC and don’t want to hug him forever and/or cry, you are not actually a human being. That is all.
About ozyfrantz
Ozy Frantz is a student at a well-respected Hippie College in the United States. Zie bases most of zir life decisions on Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, and identifies more closely with Pinkie Pie than is probably necessary. Ozy can be contacted at [email protected] or on Twitter as @ozyfrantz. Writing is presently Ozy's primary means of support, so to tip the blogger, click here.
@Schala: Hell of a thing, Killing someone. Ya take away all zie is, all zie’s ever gonna be.
Maybe someone needs to come up with something snappy like that for rape.
“The latter might be more flattering to men in general, but it also has the disadvantage of making people go “But this person doesn’t look or act like the monsters we’ve been told about, they can’t possibly be a rapist!”, which hurts just about every victim of sexual assault, regardless of gender and sexual orientation. And it’s still sexist towards men all the same.” Part of that problem is how society constructed rape as THE MOST HORRIBLE CRIME EVER, short of murder, though sometimes considered worse. If you don’t feel horrible like hell, then it didn’t happen to you, because… Read more »
“Schala: ‘Maybe I can use the same kind of argument I was served on Feministe not long ago: Every oppression is already about women’ – I am sure that went down well at Feministe. It doesn’t go down well with me.”
The argument I was served was that, since education departments were not about women specifically for the most, they were about helping men (yes, your History lesson is about helping men!). So the notion that “all oppression is already about men” was hyperbole from me to show the absurdity of the argument.
@Clarence: “Nowhere in there is there the word “provoke”. He was giving what he thought was well-meaning common sense advice at a freaking safety conference, not excusing rape of “sluts”, whom he refered to as being “victimized” (i.o.w the victim of a crime).” The subtext of all the “women can prevent rape by dressing/acting the right way” has always been one or more of the following: 1: Dressing sexily gets men sexually aroused and therefore makes them less able to control themselves. 2: Dressing sexily makes men think you want to have sex, and since they’re incapable of reading body-language… Read more »
Schala: ‘Maybe I can use the same kind of argument I was served on Feministe not long ago: Every oppression is already about women’ – I am sure that went down well at Feministe. It doesn’t go down well with me.
It is so ridiculous to suggest ‘every oppression is already about women’ I don’t know where to start! But feminism is all about women that’s for sure.
In fact , dressing skimpily may draw the attention of some rapists (not “men”, neither Sanguinetti , nor AB conflated “men” as a group with rapists, only YOU have pulled that bullshit) but it doesn’t implie you “asked for it” nor “deserved” it. So might being Asian. Or not dressing “skimpily” or revealing one body part and not another. Or being fully clothed in the winter… (all of which has “attracted” ppl to chase, harass or attempt to assault me on the street) I think the issue ppl have is that if it’s not implying that one particular way of… Read more »
That would probably be becauseit would be absurd. They aren’t oppressive or alienating to women. Fagwalks – are you unaware of pride parades? Women have participated in them form the beginning and have continued ofr the four decades. the Dykes on Bikes open the Seattle Pride Parade every year and lesbians have always been central to these parades. That is not what AB presented them as… xD just a refresher! 😀 The Slutwalks were made because of a specific issue, a police officer telling people that women provoked men into raping them if they dressed a certain way. If people… Read more »
@Clarence I guess an apparently poorly protected bank could also attract people who would already want to rob banks, because it seems like it’s easier and less risky. The thing though is that it’s always a relative thing. It’s dressing skimpily as per the regional/national norm. So in certain countries, simply not being clad in formless burqa is construed as too revealing, because rapists never see naked arms or legs. They don’t need cleavage or anything. Similarly, given the ban on drinking, a single beer could be very attractive for someone there, as opposed to someone here where having reasonable… Read more »
BlackHumor:
Plain English: “Like a” does not equal “is”. Dressing “like a” slut does not equal “slut” anymore than me dressing “like a” mafioso means I’m a mafioso.
However “provoke” implies, at the minimum, “invite”, as if skimpily clad women were sending an invitation.
In fact , dressing skimpily may draw the attention of some rapists (not “men”, neither Sanguinetti , nor AB conflated “men” as a group with rapists, only YOU have pulled that bullshit) but it doesn’t implie you “asked for it” nor “deserved” it.
The meme of “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized” ALWAYS implies “skimpy clothing provokes men to rape women”. I don’t think it’s even possible for them to be disconnected; how would skimpy clothing cause you to be raped if it didn’t provoke some man into raping you? And of course, “skimpy clothing provokes men to rape women” is terribly misandric because it implies men have essentially no self-control whatsoever. He may well not have been excusing the rape of “sluts”, but AB never said he was. Though IMO the word “slut” definitely does imply… Read more »
Hmm: I did a bit of research on the Slutwalks many months ago and I’m surprised no one caught AB’s either deliberate misrepresentation or mistake. So to correct her: No, the slutwalks weren’t started when some cop in Canada said that women “provoked” rape by the way they dressed. Here’s the exact quote: On January 24, 2011 Constable Michael Sanguinetti spoke on crime prevention at a York University safety forum.[7] He said: “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.” Nowhere in there is there the word “provoke”. He was giving what he thought was well-meaning… Read more »
“Also, I consider my point proven – when presented with the hypothetical scenario of fagwalks, not a single person here wrote as much as one line about how it could be oppressive or alienating to women.”
That would probably be becauseit would be absurd. They aren’t oppressive or alienating to women. Fagwalks – are you unaware of pride parades? Women have participated in them form the beginning and have continued ofr the four decades. the Dykes on Bikes open the Seattle Pride Parade every year and lesbians have always been central to these parades.
“At the most it would just lead to people pretending that all of your gender related injustices went away.”
Like people saying that trans men transition in order to get male privilege. And then reality hits that it’s not all that it’s made up to be. Grass is greener and all that.
AB:
If every injustice you have experienced can be traced back to your sex, then consider yourself privileged. I’ve experience plenty who were completely non-gendered, and if identifying as male can make those go away, then sign me up.
No they all aren’t. Butdon’t be so quick to your equivalent of the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles, which maintains your status as a licensed driver) to change it you license from female to male. At the most it would just lead to people pretending that all of your gender related injustices went away.
@ Ozy
“Consent to getting punched out is shown by the possession of a penis? o.O”
Yeah I guess that was a bit weird. For some reason I was assuming he was raped.
@Danny: “No they aren’t. Some of them can be tracked back to identifying as male even if you don’t have a penis.” If every injustice you have experienced can be traced back to your sex, then consider yourself privileged. I’ve experience plenty who were completely non-gendered, and if identifying as male can make those go away, then sign me up. “Yes you presented the scenario on one forum across the entire internet and its stood for about 8 hours…” I presented it to the same people who had just argued it was sexist against men to hold a demonstration primarily… Read more »
AB: Sorry to spoil this whole “The real battle for male equality is to stop all those pesky women campaigning for their rights”-pityparty, but not every injustice can be traced back to your penis. No they aren’t. Some of them can be tracked back to identifying as male even if you don’t have a penis. Also, I consider my point proven – when presented with the hypothetical scenario of fagwalks, not a single person here wrote as much as one line about how it could be oppressive or alienating to women. Yes you presented the scenario on one forum across… Read more »
Schala:
“Maybe I can use the same kind of argument I was served on Feministe not long ago: Every oppression is already about women.”
How on earth is that related to the issue I was commenting on?
“Also, I consider my point proven – when presented with the hypothetical scenario of fagwalks, not a single person here wrote as much as one line about how it could be oppressive or alienating to women.”
Maybe I can use the same kind of argument I was served on Feministe not long ago: Every oppression is already about women.
Homophobia and transphobia are very often presented as misogyny. On the sole basis that masculine behavior is more accepted in FAAB people than feminine behavior is in MAAB people. It’s not oppression of MAAB people though, no sirree no.
@Schala: “I was told when younger and presenting as male that if I was assaulted in the right way, with purposely not leaving marks on my body, I would be unable to complain to anyone.” And I was told by a boyfriend that if he raped me, he could pass off any evidence of it as being consensual SM and there was nothing I could do about it. And he’s right, things like minor damage to the genitalia is inadmissible as evidence in courts here, on the grounds that it could theoretically be a result of rough consensual sex. Sorry… Read more »
Titfortat says:
October 8, 2011 at 10:01 pm
@Ozy
Do you ever notice which “type” of victims get most of the attention from you and this site? I know, birds of feather, but really.
What type? o:
I was told when younger and presenting as male that if I was assaulted in the right way, with purposely not leaving marks on my body, I would be unable to complain to anyone.
In the stomach doesn’t leave marks.
FWIW, I like Slutwalks. Not saying they’re not problematic ever (racefail, y/y?), but I think that the problem is not so much that there is a protest about issues primarily concerning women as that there is NOT a protest about issues primarily concerning men. “Slut shaming, rape apologism and victim blaming are dumb” is a good message, you know?
Typhon: Consent to getting punched out is shown by the possession of a penis? o.O
I really, really hope that everyone commenting on this thread understands why straight men calling themselves fags — even as survivors of sexual assault, especially as “allies” to gay men — is not the same as monogamous, celibate, or asexual women who are survivors of sexual assault calling themselves sluts.
(As an aside, the use of the word “slut” in this context haven’t gone unchallenged either: http://www.blackwomensblueprint.com/index.php/an-open-letter-from-black-women-to-the-slutwalk I’m not posting this to prompt debate about its premise or its conclusions — simply to acknowledge that Slutwalk’s reclamation of “slut” is controversial.)
It’s MUCH easier for me to go “I’m a slut” than for a straight man to go “I am gay”.
Mainly because I don’t see slut as “sleeps around with thousands of people without strings attached and without protection” but as “gives her body and performs sex acts most women would not, with her boyfriend”.