No wonder this is a confusing time for men. Chivalry is dead, and men are to blame.
I love The Good Men Project. That’s why I’ve been writing for them and working with them for the last year. Generally speaking I think this website fills a very important void, and usually I’m proud to associate myself with them.
But yesterday I wanted to strangle someone when I read Hugo Schwyzer’s piece on Chivalry.
I’ve read articles here about the end of men, how all men are rapists and the countless ways men intentionally and unintentionally demean women. And I grit my teeth through most of them because I don’t agree. Hugo’s piece yesterday was actually very thoughtful and something with which I (mostly) agreed, because his overall message was that chivalry is generally a good thing and doesn’t have to run afoul of feminist beliefs.
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But I took issue with this statement: “We don’t get to play parts that make us feel good at the expense of others. A ‘gentleman’ shouldn’t foist his manners on to others.”
As someone who was raised to hold doors for women, open car doors, pull out chairs, and walk closest to the road when strolling down the street, I don’t think good manners should be considered something negative, done “at the expense of others” just because a woman has a problem with it. The act itself is still kind and still chivalrous, even if someone inexplicably has a problem with it.
Or more bluntly, maybe a “lady” shouldn’t complain about manners to others.
But many people who left comments disagreed. Here’s a sampling:
- Men performing chivalrous acts that don’t make the woman feel good should be abandoned.
- If you’re holding the door because you are a man and the other person is a woman, then you are ignoring the individuality of the person you are dealing with (not to mention your own individuality)… and that is the problem with chivalry.
- I didn’t appreciate it when a total stranger scurried ahead of me at a gas station to hold the door when I wasn’t even planning on stepping inside the building yet. I suddenly felt obligated to go in because he was standing there holding the door for me.
- I don’t think that is chivalrous at all; that is giving yourself pleasure without giving a damn what the other person thinks.
There are more, but you get the idea.
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This, to me, just drives home the fact that men can’t win. Ever. Some women blast us if we don’t pay for dinner on a date or open the car door. But then we do those things, and all of a sudden we’re thoughtless chauvinists who are only acting kindly because traditional gender roles and societal expectations mandate it.
Can we please stop this bullshit already??
If the biggest problem you have with men is that they randomly hold open doors or help you carry heavy groceries to your car, I really don’t want to hear it. In the words of Jack Nicholson in “A Few Good Men,” I’d rather you just say thank you and go on your way.
You’re attacking chivalry? Seriously?? You’re going to get on a guy’s case because he’s practicing good manners? As someone who routinely holds open doors and gives up his seat on subways to women (and some men) without any expectations whatsoever, I have to request we put a stop to this idiocy. Common courtesy is a good thing. Manners are a good thing. Let’s keep it that way.
I understand people question motives. But honestly, as long as people are acting in a polite manner, who cares?!!?! If a rich person donates a large sum of money to charity should the organization not take it simply because he’s doing it for the tax write off? If someone starts doing volunteer work just because someone else made them feel guilty, are we going to stop them from doing it because their motivation isn’t pure enough? Hell no. Discouraging good behavior is just…well, it’s dumb!
I’m all for criticizing people who behave badly. If a man lets you go through the door first just so he can grab your ass, that’s unacceptable. But if he does it because he was raised to do so and is genuinely thoughtful, what’s the problem? A guy opening a door for you or waving you off the elevator first doesn’t take a choice away. You still have a choice. Refuse if you want to, that’s fine. But don’t get all bent out of shape that someone is practicing manners. And do not tell me that person is actually being rude in the process.
No wonder this is a confusing time for men. We’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
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Read Hugo Schwyzer’s article that sparked this debate.
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—Photo Terwilliger911/Flickr
About Aaron Gouveia
Seriously with all the challenges in the world going on and men and women are still arguing this one.
Let me end it.
Guys, if she does not like manners, it is a message to you to move on and find another woman.
Gals, when you stop castrating your men for wanting to love and protect you, life will be happier.
Now, who can tell me how we will fix the monetary issue worldwide, do we just close up shop and start bartering again?
BTW who is opening the door please I am ready to leave and I cook a mean dinner, you hungry?
It is about choice, and not forcing your choices on someone else. If you honestly do not respect someone enough to ask if they wish you to act a certain way or expect someone to be grateful for something they never asked for, you are a bigot. That goes for men or women, there needs to be better communication less assumption based off of ‘societal norms’. Everyone is an individual why should any behavior be exempt from etiquette accorded to boundaries.
You’re right, it is about choice. I have a choice to be polite, you have a choice to refuse manners. If you honestly think I’m a bigot for doing something nice for someone, then you’re an idiot. That goes for a man or a woman. There needs to be more common sense and less assumption based off the notion that all societal norms are evil.
My name is Taurian and my ladies birthday is today. Last night I went to the grocery store with $150 and the mind set to purchase a birthday cake and some flowers along with a card & balloons. $150 was all I had until this weekend coming which is payday. I purchased items to fill the fridge and I purchased a cake, flowers, card, balloon, leaving me with $40 lefty for the week … she gets angry because we can’t afford to go to a restaurant and have drinks. Not appreciating the fact of the matter, which is my thinking of making sure we have food to eat and still showing my love. She says she doesn’t like cherry’s so the cake wont be eaten and she’d rather I had just bought a card and used the rest to go out, leaving the fridge with one pack of chicken to survive off for the week. Is my future thinking bad?
My name is Taurian and my ladies birthday is today. Last night I went to the grocery store with $150 and the mind set to purchase a birthday cake and some flowers along with a card & balloons. $150 was all I had until this weekend coming which is payday. I purchased items to fill the fridge and I purchased a cake, flowers, card, balloon, leaving me with $40 lefty for the week … she gets angry because we can’t afford to go to a restaurant and have drinks. Not appreciating the fact of the matter, which is my thinking of making sure we have food to eat and still showing my love. She says she doesn’t like cherry’s so the cake wont be eaten and she’d rather I had just bought a card and used the rest to go out, leaving the fridge with one pack of chicken to survive off for the week. Is my future thinking bad?
I agree with this. And just like Michele said, instead of having men and women keep arguing about this stupid kind of stuff why don’t we do something more productive and try to resolve the poverty issues around the world. And yes, men if you open a door for a girl or be nice to her and she complains, then you should probably be mean to her and slam the door on her face. Maybe she will like that.
I may have made this point elsewhere and lost track, or it may have gotten lost on its own, or perhaps it was so insightful that it was banned. Probably the last.
Try again.
So far, we’ve been using the door issue as a proxy for all chivalry. Hugo mentioned walking somebody to the car. Big deal.
The question is the expectations. Usually, if a man walks a woman to the car, that’s it. In some cases, the reason nothing happens is directly because there’s a man walking a woman to the car. Once in a great while, the Bad Thing happens and now the expectations kick in. The guy is expected to try to fight off the perps, at the certain risk of his life, while the woman sprints for safety.
If the guy split, leaving the woman to her fate, his claim that chivalry is dead and and anyway, demeaning to women, wouldn’t impress even a feminist.
Now, all of you women who would prefer to be left by the so-called escort, raise your hands. Okay. Figure out some way of making that permanently clear so that even a passer-by, seeing your problem, would continue to pass on by. Guys, all of you trying to get down with feminism, convince every woman you know to consult the women referred to in the previous sentence for the appropriate notification device.
Not gonna happen?
Then the idea that such expectations, occasionally aka chivalry, are obsolete fails.
This becomes a problem when men try to make unwanted gestures towards women in whom they are interested, but who take no interest in them. I’ve had guys I had no interest in offer to pay for my lunch on a group outing. You might think I should just take the free lunch & run, but A) I feel that allowing him to pay gives him a reasonable expectation of something in return, which I have no intention of giving whatsoever, and B) I have a job, I take care of myself, and not being allowed to pay my own way in a group of others paying their own way (when I’m not remotely with the guy in question) feels like being treated like a second-class citizen, like I shouldn’t be able to own property (I’m reading The Handmaid’s Tale, in case you couldn’t tell) or conduct financial transactions like everyone else- like I need a man to handle that for me. It feels scary. Also, I have a co-worker who lurks around the desks of female co-workers he finds attractive and buys them jewelry just because. One specifically told him not to buy her the jewelry he “casually mentioned” that he could pick up, if she wanted, because it reminded him of her. He was also advised not to buy it by everyone he consulted, but he bought it anyway. Another girl he bought jewelry for doesn’t even know who he is yet- she’s only been here a few months and hasn’t gotten to know anyone terribly well. He considers these gifts part of his “chivalrous” upbringing and that he’s being a “gentleman” and a “good friend”, but when one girl that he bought a bracelet for got a real boyfriend, he sullenly gave the jewelry to a friend’s child and never spoke to the girl again. I don’t consider any of these behaviors chivalrous, so much as annoying and creepy. I’ve certainly never complained about a man opening doors for me or helping me to carry something heavy, and especially if I’m WITH said man, but other behaviors can REALLY walk the line between “good manners” and “inappropriate and unwanted”.
The Handmaid’s Tale is a lousy book with continuity and logical issues. It’s also found in the fiction section of the library.
I asked some teachers a couple of years ago why they taught from Handmaid when things like, say, treatment of women in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia were actually true. They fumbled, but the most likely interpretation of their fumbling, mumbling, bumbling and stumbling was that they thought Christianity was the greater threat–even than something actually happening in the real world. Go figure that one. In addition, they reminded me of the Brit political cartoonist who was asked why he did savage cartoons of Jews but not Muslims. “Jews don’t issue fatwas.”
Chivalry is good manners including but not restricted to opening doors and paying for meals. It also means not offending anyone inadvertently. And it presumes women hold a special place in society. If you don’t like that last, make sure you give it up, every jot, scrap, tittle.
The Handmaid’s Tale is a novel, so yeah, it’s in the fiction section. I don’t understand why a work of fiction somehow detracts from the situation of women in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. That’s like saying people shouldn’t read A Tale of Two Cities because women are being abused in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. And yes, people would fumble and mumble to answer you only because they’re probably wondering what you’re smoking.
Basic human kindness shouldn’t be classified as chivalry, it’s just basic human kindness. Men should act that way to other men, women, children and animals. And women should act that way to other women, men, children and animals. It’s not “special treatment.” It’s just common sense.
And as for the idea that “men can never win” because there are women who don’t want to be treated like being female means being mentally of physically handicapped? What devastating harm exactly comes to you from someone paying for their own meal or opening their own door? There are women who are being abused not only in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia but all over the world for doing nothing but breathing while female, so I don’t have a lot of pity for the poor men who are so overcome with confusion over whether or not to open a door for someone.
Grace. Two reasons to object to Handmaid. It’s poorly written. It’s a lousy example of how to write a book. It has some serious structural clangers. Thus, a teacher–who all know about good writing–who puts this out to the kid is thinking there’s something more important than lousy writing, that overcomes lousy writing.
And that is…. To get people all upset about fundamental Christianity’s threat, which is non-existent. If you’re interested in radical religion and the plight of women, you have a real situation, one not made up.
And, of course, these teachers would be wondering what I’m smoking because it’s not done to wonder about brown women in far away countries being oppressed by brown men because that would be cultural imperialism or something. Simply not done. Much rather read about what isn’t happening.
Agree with the point of basic human kindness. However, we treat people differently. When meeting my elderly neighbor–92 next May– I don’t punch him in the shoulder as I do my son–6’5″, 240, benches his own weight because he hasn’t the time recently to stay at 300. And chivalry considers women have a special place in society and so are to be treated differently because of that. I don’t punch my daughter in the shoulder, either, come to think of it. To dismiss chivalry means women no longer get points for being women. For example, no breaks when pregnant at work. I recall a case heard by Bork–or not, it may have been a lie which would not have been surprising–about pregnant women and a particular place in a factory with an ambient chemical possibly dangerous to fetuses. No breaks at work when physically unable to perform a task. Expectations of doing what men are currently expected to do. Which, as some have said, may be leading to the disparate rates of suicide.
You pick it. Makes no never mind to me.
I’m not going to believe The Handmaid’s Tale is poorly written from someone who can’t even construct clear sentences.
Good point, Aaron.
Whatever you do, someone will always complain or be pissed off. Ever.
(ever noticed some people’s life seem revolving around constant complaining?!?)
So my take is this: I do whatever I think it’s the kindest thing to do (unless clearly stated against from the other party), just because I BELIEVE it’s the kindest thing (not for being rewarded)…
so if they’re happy, good, we’re both happy; and if they complain, well, their loss.
I have never in my life heard a woman or heard OF a woman who objected to the door being opened for her. I must therefore conclude that you men are making this up as some kind of slur against women since it is silly and unreasonably surly to object to anyone holding a door open for you. I’ve never ever seen it or heard about it. At age 47 don’t you think if this was as big a problem as men say it is that I’d have heard women talking about it by now. Is this how you spell antifeministbacklashmyth?
The limits of your experience are not the limits of reality.
The AutoBlogging System http://ow.ly/69GLq?e=53l67
It’s only ‘basic politeness’ if you hold the door open (or offer to carry goods, or pay for dinner, or whatever) for men as well as women. If you only do it for women, it’s something else. Personally, I would say it is sexist, since it implies a man doesn’t need the door opened for him but a woman does. If you’re going to open doors for people, fine, but do it for everybody.
It is not polite to do something “for” someone when they don’t want it. It is imposing what you want on the other person and calling them ungrateful when really you just didn’t think to ask.
Hey, here’s a crazy idea. How about asking women what they want instead of blaming them for expecting you to be a mind reader? The solution to “some women want chivalry, some don’t want chivalry, and they get angry if I do the wrong thing” is simple: Ask women what they want. Have you even tried saying “Do you prefer chivalry or a lack of chivalry?”
You can’t call it “being polite” if what it does is make the other person feel demeaned and belittled. Because it isn’t polite to make another person feel that way. And yes, some people will feel demeaned no matter which choice you make. So. Ask. Them. What. They. Want.
You aren’t “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.” Minorities don’t get together in their secret clubs and decide to come up with arbitrary rules when they aren’t being a unified front. With some women you’re damned if you do, with some women you’re damned if you don’t, and hey! Women are individuals. If you care so much about women, which you do, you should care about letting them have a say. Since you’re only doing this to be pleasant towards women, make sure the individual woman will find it pleasant first. Otherwise, your actions will run counter to their purpose.
Are you serious?
You want me to poll every woman for whom I hold the door open before I do it, just to make sure I’m not inadvertently offending her?? That is the most asinine thing I’ve ever heard.
I’ll stick with being polite. If that rubs a woman the wrong way, I don’t care. Her problem. I’m never going to apologize for politeness and manners. And if you think I have to, that’s on you too.
I guess it would be the same as you want to give a women an orgasm whether she wants one or not. Yup just trying to be nice right? Please excuse the hyperbole of the example, but as a man you obviously are not accustomed to experiencing what it is like for people to be ‘nice’ and do things that annoy you. How would it feel to have a guy walk you to your car, without asking. Oh maybe open the door for you everytime he saw you. Yeah you might think he is coming onto you, he may just be friendly. Hence I as a women don’t know you, and don’t appreciate chivalry for the most part. If I am carrying stuff and you open the door thanks, if my hands are free let me do it. If it is a date find out what she prefers from the beginning and respect that. This isn’t hard it is the same respect you’d expect from others.
Orgasms??? You’re comparing holding a door open for a woman to “mandatory” orgasms?? Give me a flipping break here. Yours is the most ridiculous comment yet, and that’s saying something.
You think because I’m a man you don’t think I’ve ever been annoyed? News flash Elisia, I’m annoyed right now by reading your comments. But yeah, I can’t imagine the awfulness of a guy walking to your car and holding doors open for you. That’s just about the worst thing I can think of. How dare these bastard men try to oppress you like that. Wow, I’m surprised you’ve managed to survive thus far.
You talk about respect but you have none for guys who are just trying to be nice. If it’s a dating situation and it bothers you, fine. Tell him once and I’m sure he won’t do it again. Or decide not to date someone who inexplicably looks down on good manners. To each his own. But I hold doors open for men and women I don’t know all the time, and I absolutely refuse to say that is a bad thing.
I can’t believe some of you people with this bullshit. And make no mistake, it is bullshit.
If the act itself requires less time and effort than asking about it, and even the recovery takes less time and effort, there is no point asking. Rather if one were to discuss it, you should be talking about body language. Duh.
A possible reason why some women hate random chivalry is fear of rape. There are tons of examples of men who do nice things for women hoping that it will get the women interested. They’re looking for romance and/or sex and will do various favors to improve relations. Unfortunately many men will then expect something in return, and when they don’t get it they’ll force it from her, thus rape. While there are a lot of men who do this, they’re not EVERY man. “Men have a one goal in mind!” is a stereotype, it’s true in some cases, but not all.
I”m sorry Elisia but I can’t help imagine you quaking in fear at the thought of rape. Reacting from what is essentially paranoia. Many feminists have expressed the need to not only deal with the issue of rape, but also the intense fear of rape women feel, which seems disproportionate. Especially considering how few rapes are stranger rapes, let alone a stranger holding the door for you.
Sometime a door is just a door. If I get to a door a few steps ahead of anyone I will hold the door open, man or woman. If someone holds the door open for me I smile and say thank you. It’s simply manners.
Chivalry isn’t dead; it’s just being smothered by women’s expectations.
I have three sons and they all better hold doors and give up their seats for women and the elderly. They also remove their baseball caps indoors and say please and thank you.
It’s not sexist – it’s manners, and they matter.
I am a feminist, and I have no problem with men holding doors open for me. What I do have a problem with is when I hold the door open for a man, and he picks a fight with me, refusing to go through unless I go through first, insisting “No, no, no, ladies first!” I have had this happen with strangers many times. I was also raised to be aware of manners and it’s pretty silly and insulting when someone refuses to accept my offer of politeness just because I happen to be a woman. I hold the door open for everyone!
Oh, wow, there’s a lot of question-begging here. Of course it’s rude to complain about being shown politeness.
That doesn’t mean it’s rude to discuss what is, and isn’t, polite, or to argue that highly-gendered politeness – chivalry – should be reserved for people we know well enough to know that they are happy and comfortable playing a highly-gendered role, and ordinary politeness should be engaged in without reference to gender.
And, frankly, the fact that as soon as the question is “chivalry”, a lot of self-described “gentlemen” get nasty, condescending, and self-pitying because someone is daring to question them is the biggest argument against their position I can think of.
The point and purpose of manners is to make daily life smoother and pleasanter for everyone. When, for example, a number of women express that having doors held for them *in a way that calls attention to their gender* makes them uncomfortable, or points out that *actually they’d rather not have men they don’t know well walk them to their cars, because that requires them to leave the shared social space with a man they don’t know well and show him where their car is*, it seems to me that the response of a gentleman is “ah, I’ll keep that in mind.”
See? Simple. Nobody wants you to stop being polite. We’d like you to listen when we tell you what works and what actually causes problems.
I respect feminists who do not want to be treated with gendered politeness (chivalry) even in their personal relationships, based on the the equality they claim to want.. This means that they don’t expect any more kindness, consideration, or deference than a man would get in any given situation.
Chivalry is dead?
God, damn it, if only!
No, chivalry is institutionalized. It used to be that chivalry was only for the rich knights, for they had swords and armors. If you went back to that era and expected a peasant to be chivalrous you’d be laughed in the face. A peasant without armor or weapons or horse going into a tournament to defend the honor of a lady? The peasant would be considered insane, not chivalrous.
But today; women get lesser sentences if not get off entirely for the same crime. Men are expected to pay alimony till they die, and if economic realities means he can’t pay anymore? Well, he’ll go to jail.
If only chivalry were dead, what a better place we would live in. In fact, running over to a door to open it for a women isn’t good manners, nor is it chivalrous; it’s being a self-righteous prick that furthers the destruction of the rights of men.
I hold doors open for people behind me, regardless of sex. However, I do not run to open a door, and I will not stand there for nothing for longer than a few seconds. If whoever is behind me doesn’t keep up their end of the bargain; that is speed up if they are a little far in the way, I will drop the door in their faces. The only people I stand up for in a bus or train, are those who are clearly disabled; who have difficulty standing.
A woman is a healthy human being, she can damn well stand, like the rest of us.
Chivalry isn’t dead, I wouldn’t exist if that was the case to speak quite literally. Chivalry and Values in general are simply not appreciated much anymore, and then there are also those who misuse them.
I have a simple solution, if the person doesn’t appreciate what I do I simply move on. No need to waste time or effort on someone like that, plenty of fish in the ocean guys.
I’m a feminist. I say hold the door. Thought you might find this post I wrote rather interesting from a woman’s perspective.
http://hippielib.com/2011/09/17/hold-the-door/
P.S. The picture at the top and your last paragraph made me laugh out loud.