No wonder this is a confusing time for men. Chivalry is dead, and men are to blame.
I love The Good Men Project. That’s why I’ve been writing for them and working with them for the last year. Generally speaking I think this website fills a very important void, and usually I’m proud to associate myself with them.
But yesterday I wanted to strangle someone when I read Hugo Schwyzer’s piece on Chivalry.
I’ve read articles here about the end of men, how all men are rapists and the countless ways men intentionally and unintentionally demean women. And I grit my teeth through most of them because I don’t agree. Hugo’s piece yesterday was actually very thoughtful and something with which I (mostly) agreed, because his overall message was that chivalry is generally a good thing and doesn’t have to run afoul of feminist beliefs.
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But I took issue with this statement: “We don’t get to play parts that make us feel good at the expense of others. A ‘gentleman’ shouldn’t foist his manners on to others.”
As someone who was raised to hold doors for women, open car doors, pull out chairs, and walk closest to the road when strolling down the street, I don’t think good manners should be considered something negative, done “at the expense of others” just because a woman has a problem with it. The act itself is still kind and still chivalrous, even if someone inexplicably has a problem with it.
Or more bluntly, maybe a “lady” shouldn’t complain about manners to others.
But many people who left comments disagreed. Here’s a sampling:
- Men performing chivalrous acts that don’t make the woman feel good should be abandoned.
- If you’re holding the door because you are a man and the other person is a woman, then you are ignoring the individuality of the person you are dealing with (not to mention your own individuality)… and that is the problem with chivalry.
- I didn’t appreciate it when a total stranger scurried ahead of me at a gas station to hold the door when I wasn’t even planning on stepping inside the building yet. I suddenly felt obligated to go in because he was standing there holding the door for me.
- I don’t think that is chivalrous at all; that is giving yourself pleasure without giving a damn what the other person thinks.
There are more, but you get the idea.
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This, to me, just drives home the fact that men can’t win. Ever. Some women blast us if we don’t pay for dinner on a date or open the car door. But then we do those things, and all of a sudden we’re thoughtless chauvinists who are only acting kindly because traditional gender roles and societal expectations mandate it.
Can we please stop this bullshit already??
If the biggest problem you have with men is that they randomly hold open doors or help you carry heavy groceries to your car, I really don’t want to hear it. In the words of Jack Nicholson in “A Few Good Men,” I’d rather you just say thank you and go on your way.
You’re attacking chivalry? Seriously?? You’re going to get on a guy’s case because he’s practicing good manners? As someone who routinely holds open doors and gives up his seat on subways to women (and some men) without any expectations whatsoever, I have to request we put a stop to this idiocy. Common courtesy is a good thing. Manners are a good thing. Let’s keep it that way.
I understand people question motives. But honestly, as long as people are acting in a polite manner, who cares?!!?! If a rich person donates a large sum of money to charity should the organization not take it simply because he’s doing it for the tax write off? If someone starts doing volunteer work just because someone else made them feel guilty, are we going to stop them from doing it because their motivation isn’t pure enough? Hell no. Discouraging good behavior is just…well, it’s dumb!
I’m all for criticizing people who behave badly. If a man lets you go through the door first just so he can grab your ass, that’s unacceptable. But if he does it because he was raised to do so and is genuinely thoughtful, what’s the problem? A guy opening a door for you or waving you off the elevator first doesn’t take a choice away. You still have a choice. Refuse if you want to, that’s fine. But don’t get all bent out of shape that someone is practicing manners. And do not tell me that person is actually being rude in the process.
No wonder this is a confusing time for men. We’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
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Read Hugo Schwyzer’s article that sparked this debate.
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—Photo Terwilliger911/Flickr
P.S. The picture at the top and your last paragraph made me laugh out loud.
I’m a feminist. I say hold the door. Thought you might find this post I wrote rather interesting from a woman’s perspective.
http://hippielib.com/2011/09/17/hold-the-door/
Chivalry isn’t dead, I wouldn’t exist if that was the case to speak quite literally. Chivalry and Values in general are simply not appreciated much anymore, and then there are also those who misuse them.
I have a simple solution, if the person doesn’t appreciate what I do I simply move on. No need to waste time or effort on someone like that, plenty of fish in the ocean guys.
Chivalry is dead? God, damn it, if only! No, chivalry is institutionalized. It used to be that chivalry was only for the rich knights, for they had swords and armors. If you went back to that era and expected a peasant to be chivalrous you’d be laughed in the face. A peasant without armor or weapons or horse going into a tournament to defend the honor of a lady? The peasant would be considered insane, not chivalrous. But today; women get lesser sentences if not get off entirely for the same crime. Men are expected to pay alimony till they… Read more »
Oh, wow, there’s a lot of question-begging here. Of course it’s rude to complain about being shown politeness. That doesn’t mean it’s rude to discuss what is, and isn’t, polite, or to argue that highly-gendered politeness – chivalry – should be reserved for people we know well enough to know that they are happy and comfortable playing a highly-gendered role, and ordinary politeness should be engaged in without reference to gender. And, frankly, the fact that as soon as the question is “chivalry”, a lot of self-described “gentlemen” get nasty, condescending, and self-pitying because someone is daring to question them… Read more »
I respect feminists who do not want to be treated with gendered politeness (chivalry) even in their personal relationships, based on the the equality they claim to want.. This means that they don’t expect any more kindness, consideration, or deference than a man would get in any given situation.
I am a feminist, and I have no problem with men holding doors open for me. What I do have a problem with is when I hold the door open for a man, and he picks a fight with me, refusing to go through unless I go through first, insisting “No, no, no, ladies first!” I have had this happen with strangers many times. I was also raised to be aware of manners and it’s pretty silly and insulting when someone refuses to accept my offer of politeness just because I happen to be a woman. I hold the door… Read more »
Chivalry isn’t dead; it’s just being smothered by women’s expectations.
I have three sons and they all better hold doors and give up their seats for women and the elderly. They also remove their baseball caps indoors and say please and thank you.
It’s not sexist – it’s manners, and they matter.
Sometime a door is just a door. If I get to a door a few steps ahead of anyone I will hold the door open, man or woman. If someone holds the door open for me I smile and say thank you. It’s simply manners.
It is not polite to do something “for” someone when they don’t want it. It is imposing what you want on the other person and calling them ungrateful when really you just didn’t think to ask. Hey, here’s a crazy idea. How about asking women what they want instead of blaming them for expecting you to be a mind reader? The solution to “some women want chivalry, some don’t want chivalry, and they get angry if I do the wrong thing” is simple: Ask women what they want. Have you even tried saying “Do you prefer chivalry or a lack… Read more »
Are you serious?
You want me to poll every woman for whom I hold the door open before I do it, just to make sure I’m not inadvertently offending her?? That is the most asinine thing I’ve ever heard.
I’ll stick with being polite. If that rubs a woman the wrong way, I don’t care. Her problem. I’m never going to apologize for politeness and manners. And if you think I have to, that’s on you too.
I guess it would be the same as you want to give a women an orgasm whether she wants one or not. Yup just trying to be nice right? Please excuse the hyperbole of the example, but as a man you obviously are not accustomed to experiencing what it is like for people to be ‘nice’ and do things that annoy you. How would it feel to have a guy walk you to your car, without asking. Oh maybe open the door for you everytime he saw you. Yeah you might think he is coming onto you, he may just… Read more »
Orgasms??? You’re comparing holding a door open for a woman to “mandatory” orgasms?? Give me a flipping break here. Yours is the most ridiculous comment yet, and that’s saying something. You think because I’m a man you don’t think I’ve ever been annoyed? News flash Elisia, I’m annoyed right now by reading your comments. But yeah, I can’t imagine the awfulness of a guy walking to your car and holding doors open for you. That’s just about the worst thing I can think of. How dare these bastard men try to oppress you like that. Wow, I’m surprised you’ve managed… Read more »
If the act itself requires less time and effort than asking about it, and even the recovery takes less time and effort, there is no point asking. Rather if one were to discuss it, you should be talking about body language. Duh. A possible reason why some women hate random chivalry is fear of rape. There are tons of examples of men who do nice things for women hoping that it will get the women interested. They’re looking for romance and/or sex and will do various favors to improve relations. Unfortunately many men will then expect something in return, and… Read more »
It’s only ‘basic politeness’ if you hold the door open (or offer to carry goods, or pay for dinner, or whatever) for men as well as women. If you only do it for women, it’s something else. Personally, I would say it is sexist, since it implies a man doesn’t need the door opened for him but a woman does. If you’re going to open doors for people, fine, but do it for everybody.
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I have never in my life heard a woman or heard OF a woman who objected to the door being opened for her. I must therefore conclude that you men are making this up as some kind of slur against women since it is silly and unreasonably surly to object to anyone holding a door open for you. I’ve never ever seen it or heard about it. At age 47 don’t you think if this was as big a problem as men say it is that I’d have heard women talking about it by now. Is this how you spell… Read more »
The limits of your experience are not the limits of reality.
Good point, Aaron.
Whatever you do, someone will always complain or be pissed off. Ever.
(ever noticed some people’s life seem revolving around constant complaining?!?)
So my take is this: I do whatever I think it’s the kindest thing to do (unless clearly stated against from the other party), just because I BELIEVE it’s the kindest thing (not for being rewarded)…
so if they’re happy, good, we’re both happy; and if they complain, well, their loss.
Grace. Two reasons to object to Handmaid. It’s poorly written. It’s a lousy example of how to write a book. It has some serious structural clangers. Thus, a teacher–who all know about good writing–who puts this out to the kid is thinking there’s something more important than lousy writing, that overcomes lousy writing. And that is…. To get people all upset about fundamental Christianity’s threat, which is non-existent. If you’re interested in radical religion and the plight of women, you have a real situation, one not made up. And, of course, these teachers would be wondering what I’m smoking because… Read more »
I’m not going to believe The Handmaid’s Tale is poorly written from someone who can’t even construct clear sentences.
The Handmaid’s Tale is a novel, so yeah, it’s in the fiction section. I don’t understand why a work of fiction somehow detracts from the situation of women in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. That’s like saying people shouldn’t read A Tale of Two Cities because women are being abused in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. And yes, people would fumble and mumble to answer you only because they’re probably wondering what you’re smoking. Basic human kindness shouldn’t be classified as chivalry, it’s just basic human kindness. Men should act that way to other men, women, children and animals. And women should… Read more »
The Handmaid’s Tale is a lousy book with continuity and logical issues. It’s also found in the fiction section of the library. I asked some teachers a couple of years ago why they taught from Handmaid when things like, say, treatment of women in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia were actually true. They fumbled, but the most likely interpretation of their fumbling, mumbling, bumbling and stumbling was that they thought Christianity was the greater threat–even than something actually happening in the real world. Go figure that one. In addition, they reminded me of the Brit political cartoonist who was asked why… Read more »
This becomes a problem when men try to make unwanted gestures towards women in whom they are interested, but who take no interest in them. I’ve had guys I had no interest in offer to pay for my lunch on a group outing. You might think I should just take the free lunch & run, but A) I feel that allowing him to pay gives him a reasonable expectation of something in return, which I have no intention of giving whatsoever, and B) I have a job, I take care of myself, and not being allowed to pay my own… Read more »
I may have made this point elsewhere and lost track, or it may have gotten lost on its own, or perhaps it was so insightful that it was banned. Probably the last. Try again. So far, we’ve been using the door issue as a proxy for all chivalry. Hugo mentioned walking somebody to the car. Big deal. The question is the expectations. Usually, if a man walks a woman to the car, that’s it. In some cases, the reason nothing happens is directly because there’s a man walking a woman to the car. Once in a great while, the Bad… Read more »
I agree with this. And just like Michele said, instead of having men and women keep arguing about this stupid kind of stuff why don’t we do something more productive and try to resolve the poverty issues around the world. And yes, men if you open a door for a girl or be nice to her and she complains, then you should probably be mean to her and slam the door on her face. Maybe she will like that.
Seriously with all the challenges in the world going on and men and women are still arguing this one. Let me end it. Guys, if she does not like manners, it is a message to you to move on and find another woman. Gals, when you stop castrating your men for wanting to love and protect you, life will be happier. Now, who can tell me how we will fix the monetary issue worldwide, do we just close up shop and start bartering again? BTW who is opening the door please I am ready to leave and I cook a… Read more »
It is about choice, and not forcing your choices on someone else. If you honestly do not respect someone enough to ask if they wish you to act a certain way or expect someone to be grateful for something they never asked for, you are a bigot. That goes for men or women, there needs to be better communication less assumption based off of ‘societal norms’. Everyone is an individual why should any behavior be exempt from etiquette accorded to boundaries.
You’re right, it is about choice. I have a choice to be polite, you have a choice to refuse manners. If you honestly think I’m a bigot for doing something nice for someone, then you’re an idiot. That goes for a man or a woman. There needs to be more common sense and less assumption based off the notion that all societal norms are evil.
My name is Taurian and my ladies birthday is today. Last night I went to the grocery store with $150 and the mind set to purchase a birthday cake and some flowers along with a card & balloons. $150 was all I had until this weekend coming which is payday. I purchased items to fill the fridge and I purchased a cake, flowers, card, balloon, leaving me with $40 lefty for the week … she gets angry because we can’t afford to go to a restaurant and have drinks. Not appreciating the fact of the matter, which is my thinking… Read more »
My name is Taurian and my ladies birthday is today. Last night I went to the grocery store with $150 and the mind set to purchase a birthday cake and some flowers along with a card & balloons. $150 was all I had until this weekend coming which is payday. I purchased items to fill the fridge and I purchased a cake, flowers, card, balloon, leaving me with $40 lefty for the week … she gets angry because we can’t afford to go to a restaurant and have drinks. Not appreciating the fact of the matter, which is my thinking… Read more »
New to this site. Observations: first – impressed how much conflict in the comments to this article. second – the comments that are hidden due to low ratings, seem quite reasonable and generally in keeping with the tone (if not viewpoint) of the other comments. third – in this question of chivalry, some women seem to live from an attitude of holding strict expectations of how men should behave, and becoming sharply offended (and sometimes vocally critical) when these expectations are disappointed. For me, living this way is cramped, uncomfortable and constricting. To those who have appointed themselves officers of… Read more »
One benefit of chivalry is that it solves the awkward coin toss of who goes first when a man and a woman reach the door at the same time. 🙂
But on the other hand it reduces the chance of seeing the hilarious sight of two people being jammed and stuck shoulder to shoulder in the door frame 🙂
Well put, Aaron. I was also raised to open doors, give up seats, etc… As for the chivalry bit being distinctly different than common courtesy (as mentioned by Miranda), the lines have been so blurred over the years that today’s chivalrous acts are simply kind mannerisms. I don’t see a difference anymore. I’ll be damned if I throw my coat on a puddle, but I will hold a door in a heartbeat. My thing is this—Sarah’s eye covering incident is ridiculous. Obviously the guy was lacking in the social/courting skills department. Women do not need to be saved from an… Read more »
If someone doesn’t like my kinds acts towards em, i stop doing them.
Now if they only likes my kind acts at certain times, that’s a problem since only i decide when to do those acts.
why can’t everyone just try their best to be really awesome?