“Just as women rightly want to be valued for more than their looks, we men want to be appreciated for more than our job titles, resumes, or salaries.”
Fact: women are too often judged solely on their appearance, and treated differently based on how they measure up to men’s ideas of what they should look like. This much is obvious, and I’m sure the majority of us here applaud the women who stood up and continue to stand up to this offensive treatment that reduces women to just one aspect of who they are, while ignoring their many other strengths. But—come on, you knew there had to be a “but”—women should acknowledge that they often do the same thing to men—not based on looks as much as on our jobs, careers, and success.
Not to excuse this kind of treatment on the part of men or women, but to a certain extent it is a natural part of our evolutionary
programming. Men seek out women who look well-suited to bearing and raising children, and women seek out men with wealth and power to ensure the children will prosper. Of course, we don’t think of it like this: men and women each interpret their mating preferences in terms of attractiveness. In addition, each person desires a unique combination of traits in another person, conscious preferences which may, on occasion, overwhelm our subconscious evolved desires. But those basic desires are always there and can cause problems when we think we’ve evolved socially beyond them—such as when women desire successful men even after they’ve achieved success themselves.
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Want some examples? OK, I’m “happy” to oblige—one woman I was with, very successful by any measure, actively belittled and ridiculed me through most of our relationship because I didn’t make as much money as she did. (We’ll talk of her no longer. Who? That’s right. Moving on now.) Another woman I was with, also very successful, made no secret of her admiration of my accomplishments. Naturally, this was flattering at first, especially since it came after the one with she-who-shall-not-be-discussed. She would even brag to her friends—and exes—about my success and report back to me that they “approved” of me because of it—even the exes.
However, during one of my all-too-frequent periods of doubt concerning my path in life and how my job fit into it, I asked her if her feelings would change if I decided to cut back on work, perhaps to change careers altogether. There was an uncomfortable silence, after which she said, “Let me think about it for a minute.” Nnnnnh, wrong answer, thanks for playing—but it did let me know that she placed far too much value on my career and success and not enough on the characteristics for which I wanted to be valued.
It was as if I told this woman that I wouldn’t love her if she lost her incredible beauty or her wonderful figure. Such a statement would have wrongfully reduced her to just her looks, neglecting all her other positive qualities (including her own success)—just as her statement reduced me to my job title and my publication record. In time, that relationship ended, and only much later did I realize how much pressure she had put on me regarding my job; even though, to be fair, she may have sincerely thought she was being encouraging and supportive.
I would even hazard a guess—actually, a well-considered theory, but I’m not one to brag—that this problem intensifies as a woman becomes more successful. Bear with me, please; in no way do I mean to begrudge women the success in the workplace for which they have fought so hard for decades. Most of the women with whom I have been involved have been successful, intelligent, and confident, and I was more than willing to acknowledge and celebrate this. But that never seemed enough—they also needed me to succeed as well, even to surpass their own success.
To give them the benefit of the doubt, this was likely not a conscious reaction; their unconscious evolutionary programming told them to find a more successful man even though they were successful and independent themselves. Some professional women simply don’t realize the effect this has on the men they’re with, so they don’t know to fight their evolved preference, recently made redundant by their own increasing status in the workplace.
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This may even explain another thing that I’ve heard professional women wonder about: why the men they know and work with, at similar levels of success, are very attracted to “working class women” such as waitresses and baristas. I freely admit, I’m one of them; I’ve had many crushes on women who work in restaurants, coffee shops, grocery stores, you name it. Many professional women I’ve known—including the ex I mention above—seem offended that the men with whom they work would be attracted to “average” women when there were many more accomplished women all around them. They seem to imply that successful women have “earned” a greater claim to men’s attentions than the less successful women have.
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This may even explain another thing that I’ve heard professional women wonder about: why the men they know and work with, at similar levels of success, are very attracted to “working class women” such as waitresses and baristas.
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They suspect—in some cases correctly, I’m sure—that these men are intimidated by strong women who might challenge them, or that they cling to outmoded gender roles by which they have to be the primary if not sole providers. But that misses the greater point—two of them, in fact. First, men don’t really care how successful a woman is; we’re primed to seek out physically attractive women, and although we may consciously seek out other things (such as kindness and intelligence), wealth and power are not high up on the list. So successful women don’t have any extra appeal for us—much less a greater “claim” on our attention—by virtue of their success.
Second, working class women aren’t as concerned with our success as their professional counterparts are, as long as we make decent money and can support them (and any kids that come along). And since they focus less on our careers and success, working class women can be more concerned with who we really are, which can be tremendously gratifying. They’re more interested in our character—will we treat them well, be faithful to them, and help raise their children. Successful jobs help, of course, but as long as a man does well enough, they’re satisfied, and they can turn their attention to more valuable things. And that can be a huge relief, especially to men who face enough career pressure at work, and dream of coming home to a woman who won’t add to it.
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As men, we don’t discount the appeal of professional women out of insecurity or jealousy—believe me, most of us admire women who fought tremendous odds to succeed—but because of how they often see us. Just as women rightly want to be valued for more than their looks, we men want to be appreciated for more than our job titles, resumes, or salaries—and many of us feel that working women are more likely to see us for who we are, not for what we’ve done or how much we make.
Even the most successful man wants a woman to see him as a good man first.
—Photo KellyB./Flickr
About Mark D White
Vocalyze
I love your article, but I don’t agree with you that this attitude is caused by evolution. I think we exaggerate the difference between men and women in that area. Biologically, women prefer men who look young and healthy. Just look at the male film stars we like. We agree on what looks good.
I think the difference is cultural. Despite all the changes, women don’t really want a man who depends on the them financially. Some of it may be a unspoken desire to someday cut back on work when you have kids. Some of it is just old attitudes about men; men aren’t supposed to look to women for money.
Thanks, Black Iris–I’m sure your theory explains some of it too!
The problem I have with this is that beauty is not functional unless the chick was a model and making loads of money off of her beauty, whereas his job serves a functional purpose. When you mention the waitress you talk about how they only care about paying bills, but what about the successful woman who also wants to pay the bills?
I guess I just don’t understand why you played out the scenario with the waitress as living with her and possibly wanting kids but you didn’t do the same with the successful woman? Surely in both situations, the woman would want to ensure that the bills got paid and would get apprehensive about a complete career change of someone who is contributing to the bills. Id freak out if a roommate wanted to change careers! My concern would be less about the ‘prestige’ of their career but about how this would impact finances, standard of living, etc.
As a former waitress who met her successful husband waitressing, I can tell you that a variety of women waitress. I know graduate students from Columbia and Duke who are servers so to say that they are ‘working class’ based on their current means to an end is inaccurate. Additionally, even though I personally just attended a SUNY school, I am well aware of the hierarchy of jobs that exist and wouldn’t be satisfied by just anyone who did ‘well enough’ and was willing to pay some bills. Working class women can be picky too!
I think waitresses care just as much about your financial success. They’re just poorer and therefore not looking for a guy with as much money. It’s like a short woman being willing to date any guy because they’re all taller than her.
I think you’re engaging in a little wishful thinking here. Waitresses are not better, nicer women who love you more for yourself and have sweet characters. They’re women like the rest of us. If they are kind to you, it may be to get a tip.
Your professional women friends are probably seeing your interest for what it is – an unrealistic fantasy based on physical attraction. They may also be wondering if you’re really looking for character in the waitress. Are you looking for highly educated waitresses who have intelligent discussions with you? Would you date a caring older mom who was waiting tables after her divorce?
I still like your article, I just don’t agree with the bit on waitresses being nicer.
Thanks, Black Iris–but I never said they were nicer, are more attractive, or better in general, just that on the average they might have more balanced priorities.
I think you’re right that women sometimes objectify men and look at them in terms of their career/financial success.
I think you’re dead wrong with the idea that waitresses don’t do this. I think you’ve only felt this from professional women because they are the only ones who have enough money/education/status to judge you badly.
Good point–I’ve only been with successful women, and the rest are merely crushes (so far).
Hey Mark – Waitresses are successful too… Just because she isn’t climbing the professional food chain doesn’t mean she isn’t successful!
some men would love to be objectified and are made to feel bad about themselves when they are not.
http://goodmenproject.com/gender-sexuality/men-metrosexuality-disability/#comments
Your first point is dead on, Black Iris–see the exchange above about hypergamy for more on that issue. (I addressed the rest of your poitns in previous exchanges as well.)
I think you should check out the comments on this reposting of the article; http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-guy-talk-how-professional-women-can-objectify-men/
Thanks for this article, Mark.
that has not been really acknowledged yet.
It’s something I noticed as well, a striking “double standard” (man, how much I hate them!
I’m not sure, however, “this problem intensifies as a woman becomes more successful”. I met several unsuccessful women, whose insecurity made them wanting much more than they could afford (and that was obviously projected on their potential partners). Insecurity is a bitch, and easily creates feelings of “it’s never enough”.
OTOH, there could be a cultural difference between your country and mine (Italy).
The successful women may also be afraid that people will look down them if their significant other is less successful than they are. They may be made to feel by people around them that they have settled because overall society still expects the man in the relationship to be more successful than the woman.
Interesting–thanks! On a related point, they also be worried that their partners’ lack of success could reflect poorly on them if people assume that the men are more successful than the women.
Good point. They probably do.
I don’t think the issue is evolution (although you have plenty of academic bona fides– I don’t see any natural science degrees in your bio….) or any inherent traits to the “working class” women of the world– it’s the same old patrriarchal BS that made it hard for a lot of middle class women to move up the career ladder in the first place.
I also think you may be misunderstanding the concept of objectification as used in feminist theory. Women are objectified by being reduced to their physical bodies, which have historically been bought, sold, traded, commercialized, etc. What you’re talking about is an instance where men who deviate from the patriarchal ideal of maleness (and don’t feel bad guys, because it’s a game that really no one can ever “win” except the richest, whitest, straightest dude of them all) are being treated poorly.
This isn’t about women generally speaking–or certain economic classes of women and who has more “balanced” priorities (why are they more “balance” just because they make *you* feel good ?)
We receive messages from our culture on gender roles constantly. More of the messages are about keeping women in line, telling them to look a certain way, act a certain way, etc. But some of them are about dudes too. And one of the dude messages is about how dudes are supposed to make more money and support women. Plenty of women are just as susceptible to this messaging as men or anyone else. So they take out this patriarchal crap on you or another guy who doesn’t live up to the ideal. If you “go down” a rung on the economic ladder however– you’re still above the metaphoric waitress so you still get to fulfill that ideal male role of making more money and still get to feel like you’re living up to social–and her–expectations.
The answer is undoing these expectations for men and women.
I often explain the evolutionary spin to mating to people. I think the point you made about women wanting a provider is part of it. Another part is the need to feel protected. In our society, wealth affords protection through resources one can wield. Protection from the elements, predators, famine, etc. That partly explains why some successful women love working class men for their machismo.
I think beauty, for the man, is part of the answer, too, but what defines beauty is cultural on some level and almost genetic on others. I have been attracted to women that may not rate 8+ on the proverbial 10 scale, but factors such as conversation and, for lack of a better phrase, “down” she is. Some very attractive women have not clicked with me while less “attractive” ones have caused me daydreams and fantasies.
I’m not convinced that we both share procreation urges equally. Fruit is delicious so will eat them and deposit the seeds somewhere. Where share in that procreation duty, but you don’t look at a peach and think I must plant the seed so peach trees continue. I think women’s role in attracting men may be bigger role the specie’s continuance than us attracting women. Don’t start me on men and monogamy is counter to male design – wasted sperm cells. Lol
Maybe instead of bashing men for not fawning over these suspect social climbing women, you might wanna educate your readers on the concept of Hypergamy.
It sounds like the women you pursue are about as loyal as their next pay raise and promotion prospects will allow.
This site is intended on reducing Misogyny…right?
Professor White, I am loathe to ventriloquize for professional men like yourselves. But my experience of marriage to a self-employed professional woman makes me wonder if white-collar men have a preference for waitresses and baristas, at least in part because relationships with white-collar women end up just being another job in and of itself. Am I wrong? I can only imagine what down-time with women like Maureen Dowd, Amanda Marcotte and Carly Fiorina must be like. I’d insist on being paid before the first anniversary arrived! It took awhile, but I came to see my wife’s request for a divorce—she rendered ‘you’re not good enough for me’ as “I need a man who’s a leader and you’re merely a follower’—as a blessing in disguise. I have no doubt she’ll be eating ice-cream straight out of the tub with her finger, as Goldie Hawn did in “Dead Again,” by the time she’s fifty-five. Without money, too.
Im glad someone spoke of the average working class woman, who does not make 6 figures. I was especially elated to hear it from a mans perspective. I am a hospitality contractor(proud of it)Im so tired of hearing about the “professional” woman and all her money and independence. (by the way that independent thing is just a song)I found that womans comment,about a professional man dating someone of a lower professional caliber being questionable to her, very offensive! A woman is a woman, no matter there educational background or financial status. At the end of the day we all want the same thing, A big strong welcome home hug from her man and a well needed foot rub. All that analyzing and judging sounds like a loud, screeching, banchee cry for help. Can you do me a favor Mr White? When you see her again, tell her to sit down, be quiet and take notes from the LOWLY waitress!
Personally, I’ve never cared about a guy’s income or what his job is. If anything, the word “professional” is actually a turn-off to me. What’s a “professional?” That says nothing about the line of work you’ve pursued and is merely meant to say “It means I pull down a good salary, and we both know that’s all that matters.” Of course, to some women that’s true, but personally I find that repulsive.
I’m an independent woman with a “professional” type job, but that’s not how I describe myself or what matters to me. I have the job so that I can pursue other interests that are more important to me but won’t put food on the table. And that’s all I care about in a man – that he is curious about the world. He has ambitions, a passion for something. It’s OK if it doesn’t pay well, or if he pursues it as a “hobby” (another word I tend to dislike). That he’s resourceful and has my back when the chips are down. That he takes care of me emotionally. I would certainly do the same for him.
In other words I want a true life partnership, and all these gender war issues only get in the way of that.
“Second, working class women aren’t as concerned with our success as their professional counterparts are, as long as we make decent money and can support them (and any kids that come along). And since they focus less on our careers and success, working class women can be more concerned with who we really are, which can be tremendously gratifying. They’re more interested in our character—will we treat them well, be faithful to them, and help raise their children. ”
-I think that is mostly a matter of men’s perceptions about women rather than reality. Hypergamy is a very strong social construct borne from biological necessity. On a relative basis of success, working class women can be described as less demanding. However, working class women are more dependent and needy. Both continue to objectify men for success rather than “who we really are”.
Are there any other choices?
This article took away all the hopes I had in men. I always see the evolutionary factor as important (like:”poor guys, is not their fault they look for a hot girl, they came wired like that from the fabric”) but if men think that we professional women often cannot see HOW GOOD MEN YOU ARE we are in tremendous evolutionary problem, because every decade we’ll have more and more women improving their situation and getting careers to provide for their families, even if they are waitress they always look to improve (having a professional husband whom pay her career). So, as a professional woman (warm, accessible and fairly good looking) who suffers constantly being rejected by terrified guys that end up dating working class ladies, I think that is very dissapointing to read that MEN think professional women cannot see when they are a GOOD MAN beyond your wallet or your degrees. That simple conclusion makes the case that MEN really don’t get how intelligent and loving women are. News for you guys: We all can see if you are a good man or not, but we need to protect our feelings and if we are strong is because you push us to be so, many of you guys are not a GOOD MAN, you cannot deal with your feelings, when you like a girl you are confussed, sometimes not sure if you are doing right and paniquin and then blame us for it !!! we are “too difficul to handle”… why is our fault? why our selfesteem has to be punished because we are “wanderful” but not exactly “suitable for you”? You guys need to understand that many professional ladies and working class ladies have to deal with this FEAR factor men have IS NOT YOUR WALLET OR YOUR DEGREE, remember after you crash our good intentions projecting your fears and insecurities in ourselves, we need to be brave to move on with our rejection and pain meanwhile you stay there asking for a date to a less “though” lady… what an irony, unbelievable…
I loved this article because it gave me some new angles to think about. I really don’t think generalizations always apply, though. Love is a big factor, and it’s not always about sizing up someone’s looks or salary.
I met my first husband in college, and he did not know what he was going to do for a career then. He eventually became a successful lawyer, while I was a psychologist. He made a lot more than me, and we were well off. But what did that matter when he had a midlife crisis and left me and our daughter for a 23-year-old? Now, he could have done the same had he not been wealthy.
My new husband does not make a lot of money, and it’s a big deal–for him, but not for me. God do I love that man! He’s kind, and loving, and smart, and funny, and so many things. It’s not about the money. For lots of women, it’s not about the money. I’ve had times of plenty and times of scarcity, and do not use money as any sort of measuring stick. Likewise, there are men who don’t measure all women by physical attractiveness. My new husband doesn’t, and it’s a good thing, because I’m much less attractive than him. So I think we have a lot of stereotypes, and like many stereotypes, they can come from somewhere, from some tiny grain of truth, and then get distorted and magnified.
What I like about this article is that it challenges the assumptions about why a man might be interested in a woman with less money and professional success than him, and gives some alternative reasons to the ones we always hear about. At least in his own experience, Mark had reasons for his choices. And in this youth and beauty-obsessed culture, I am glad to know that there are men who are attracted to women who are beautiful on the inside when they are not conventionally beautiful on the outside. I don’t know how many successful women only want to date and marry laterally. That may be an oversimplification too. But to any women who feels that way, I challenge that. With my first husband I had financial riches, but with my second I have much more important riches, and wouldn’t trade for anything.
Wow. First of all, I find it interesting that, while you have crushed on “working class” women you never have had an relationship with one. I have to ask, why? And where is all this knowledge about working class women’s values and character coming from, especially if you haven’t been involved with any?
Let me tell you 2 stories. 1st…my ex-husband, an attorney, has a buddy who owns a large company. He kept going in this little coffee shop and asking out the gorgeous barista. He was 43, she was 28. She’d laugh and say he was too old for her. One day she found out how much money he had. Suddenly he wasn’t too old for her anymore. They dated, married, and had a baby. It lasted 2 or 3 years before it fell apart. Now he has custody of the kid and she got a nice severance payment. 2nd…
my husband, while we were still married, had many working class clients flirt with him outrageously. Now, the kind thing to say is that my ex is no Brad Pitt, if you get the picture. They were interested in his status and his money. Someone to take care of them. Period. Now he has a girlfriend 16 years younger than him. She works as a bartender, when she works, which isn’t often. Do you think she loves him for his character?
I find it insulting, naive and simplistic to make these generalizations and assumptions. I am the owner of a successful business and I have dated many nice men, from warehouse workers to a district attorney. I have never cared what they did for a living….just the caliber of man they are. The reason I divorced my husband was because of his character flaws, while many women would have stayed, because of the lifestyle he provided. I want a man I can be proud of…for who he is as a man.
When I’m asked “so, what do you do”, I answer with what is of interest to me, my life’s passions and pursuits. I deliberately do not mention my work. You can learn a lot about someone, man or woman, by how they handle the omission of employment and salary as a measure of your self.
I am not my job.
Hi Mark – I think this is a very interesting blog. I completely agree that men want to be respected for more than their salaries and titles, but your argument that non-professional women are more likely to do this than professional women is convoluted and obscured by your emotions. Besides your limited number of sour relationships with professional women and a few “women-have-told-me” stories, where is the empirical evidence that professional women are more likely to objectify men? Where is the evidence that non-professional women are less likely to objectify men? Your article is riddled with anecdotal, wishful thinking that magically bestows desirable qualities on the non-professional women, without one single, committed relationship to such a woman, let alone any data. Simultaneously, making sweeping generalizations about a large and diverse group of women – the professionals.
Since you’ve formed your assertions solely on experiences and feelings, so shall I.
As a medical student, I am very hesitant to tell lay women my career path when we are first getting to know each other. Most of my male classmates agree. When we do, the faces of these women light up – like they see a walking meal ticket or some knight in shining armor. Their tone and demeanor completely change and we can tell it’s all sadly a façade. When I know a woman is a professional (especially in medicine), I am always honest about my career. These women usually can take care of their own basic and materialistic needs and don’t need me. These women generally see us for ourselves, not for what we can provide them with.
Another benefit of dating professional women is that they understand the difficulty and demand of my job. They do not get angry or accuse me of neglecting them when I have to study for my many exams, I work long hours, or I get paged randomly to the hospital. Professional women have undergone rigorous education and training and have busy work schedules, too. I can’t tell you how many of my buddies broke up with their less educated girlfriends within the first semester of medical school, because they were too demanding and whiney (medicine is stressful as it is!).
Lastly, I value my partner for professional and personal advice and feedback. I think an important part of a relationship is the exchange of knowledge and skills. I love the encouragement and advice I get from my partner, but it means that much more to me when she actually knows what she is talking about! I can’t turn to my partner for advice on how to handle office politics or cut-throat colleagues if she is a waitress.
Again, I am not knocking non-professional women. I am merely stating a few benefits I have enjoyed. I suspect that the relationships you’ve had with professional women were somewhat emasculating and that this is why you’ve developed such an aversion to them and a soft spot for less threatening women. They were dead wrong to treat you badly, but you were equally in the wrong to tolerate it. And if you really think a non-professional woman is going to be more understanding of your major career change than a professional woman – you are being naïve and delusional. Especially if she has become accustomed to a lifestyle your career provided her with, that she has never known before and cannot achieve herself. I have no idea how you can assert that professional women care less about personality, loyalty, or family than non-professionals – it’s just so ridiculous.
BOTTOM LINE: Your experiences tell me more about your personal struggles with mate selection, than they do about the shortcomings of dating professional women as a whole. Please deal with your issues, heal, and move on. Best wishes.
The comments on this site coming from females disgust me. They use shaming language to try and censor the author of this piece, How dare someone point out female hypergamy eh? Also the self justification shown by the woman here is laughable. Also one woman basically told him he wasn’t good looking enough to keep his relationships. If a man said such a nasty thing to a woman, there would be rightful outrage, yet due to female entitlement woman feel free to say anything they want.
Demonizing male sexuality is an female attempt to control male sexuality, it is prudish and Victorian as well.
This site is sexist and hostile towards men. I’ve been disappointed by a lot of the comments on here.
Waitresses are PAID to be nice. Try asking one of them out after work hours & see if they say yes. I would guess that you don’t have a chance buddy.. Maybe due to the fact that you don’t make enough money. Lol.. This comes from a former sweet waitress turned business owner. Good luck geek.