Roger Barnett thinks we’re doing a disservice to young men by offering them porn as their only real form of sexual education.
I wish someone had sat down with me when I was in my early teens and had a frank chat about pornography and sex. In the absence of genuine information about sex, pornography became a de-facto educational tool, and I assumed what it portrayed was accurate. Needless to say, like many teens, this set me up to get about a hundred things wrong in bed in the future
I’m not anti-porn. Indeed, if we’re talking about sex between consenting adults, I’m decidedly liberal. But porn has its dangers and needs to be framed in some kind of context and coupled with real information. Otherwise, like me, our youth are in for an unpleasant series of surprises when they attempt to copy what they see in porn with their own partners; the real world is far more complicated – and interesting! – than much of what’s on our screens.
Before I divulge my sometimes embarrassingly earned lessons, I need to tackle a pervasive myth: That porn is fundamentally disrespectful towards women, and to enjoy porn is to be a misogynist. I used to assume this was true, and trying to reconcile my love of women with my enjoyment of porn was a challenge. Eventually I was relieved to discover that despite the presence of porn in my life, I didn’t hate women or want to treat my female partners badly. If the misogyny myth wasn’t true for me, then maybe it simply wasn’t true
The alleged link between porn and a hatred of women has never been demonstrated by research. Personally, I believe that if one already hates women (or men), one will find porn that expresses that hatred in a sexualised way. However, if in life you approach people with respect, then you will find that nasty porn is just not to your liking. We live in liberal times, and you have access to an incredible array of stimulus; keep searching until you find something ethical.
So here is what I wish someone had told me:
♦◊♦
1. No two people are the same, and no two people like the same things in bed. Further, what a person likes will change depending on who they’re with, and even at different times with the same partner. In mainstream porn, certain themes emerge, and it’s easy to assume that those recurrent patterns can be transposed onto all partners. It is better to start sex from a perspective of curiosity and a willingness to experiment (and watch the feedback), rather than with an arsenal of moves up your sleeve that might have worked for somebody else.
2. The sex and sexual techniques that are portrayed in pornography are selected based on what will look dynamic on screen, rather than what is enjoyable or what the actors themselves might actually like. This means that big, dramatic, and often hard-core sex scenes take up most of the time in porn, and the less grandiose and subtler things get left out simply because they’re not as cinematic. There’s a place for big, fast, athletic sex, but there’s also a place for slow, intimate acts done with the right attitude. As with all sex, the best way to navigate is to simply run some experiments, and ask for feedback.
3. A lot of heterosexual porn is somewhat stereotyped in terms of gender roles; he will generally be the pursuer, the active one, the one on top, while she will be pursued, more passive, and often be on the bottom. Sticking rigidly to these roles doesn’t work for most people. You’re short-changing yourself if you never switch things around and play with the dynamics, even if only for five minutes here and there, to see what you like.
4. All bodies are beautiful. Pornography (and the fashion and advertising industries, generally), cater almost exclusively to people of a certain shape, and we are led to believe that only these people are sexy. The truth is that what a person is like in bed depends on their relationship to you, and their relationship to their own body. The way they look gives you no information about either of these things – although the way they look at you will give you some hints!
5. Pubic hair is beautiful. Some people get rid of it, others don’t; both have their advantages. Learn to have fun either way, and love your own body either way. Being comfortable in your own body, however it looks, is perhaps the greatest gift you can offer to yourself and those you choose to share your body with.
6. Saying “no” is as much a part of sex as saying “yes”. It’s easy to assume, from watching porn, that a good lover will already know a hundred and one tricks to get any partner off. In reality, sex is a constant and creative series of experiments, some of which work, many of which don’t. There are no standards that work with all people, every time. Asking your partner to do something differently is a sure path to improving sex for the both of you, especially if it’s phrased as a positive request – “can you please try it more like this…?” – rather than simply “that’s not working for me”. Also, it should go without saying that if you don’t want something, you are always and unquestionably entitled to say a nice, clear “no” – both men and women suffer pressure to skip this important step.
7. Something that almost never comes across in pornography is the love – or at least the sense of intimacy – that exists between most partners. It doesn’t make for easy screenplay, and most porn actors don’t have such feelings for one another. However, in your life, these are the things that will change sex from being a basic physical act, to a deeply moving and gratifying spiritual experience that brings you closer to your self and your partner (if you want it to).
(This point shouldn’t be read as a vote against casual sex with a relative stranger, if that’s what you’re into).
8. In the context of a relationship, sex starts hours, days, weeks before penetration – if penetration happens at all. When creating pornography, directors aren’t aiming to put together hours of tantalising dialogue and witty flirting, or even the unlimited varieties of foreplay that most folks enjoy; they’re pitching to an audience that they believe just wants to see explicit sex and lots of it, and so this is what is often produced. However, in real life, putting that much focus on just the hard-core parts of sex makes for some of the least enjoyable sex you could hope for. The way you and your partners treat each other throughout the day, and the way sex begins, makes a big difference to your enjoyment of sex.
9. The more you watch one particular kind of porn, or one particular body type, the more your brain will wire itself to associate that type of activity or person with sex. This has implications for your love life; be careful you don’t accidentally program yourself for a narrow band of enjoyment, as you might overlook a whole variety of other pleasures.
10. Porn works pretty well if you just want some relief. But again, you’re inadvertently programming yourself for quick, shallow orgasms if this is the extent of how you use it. Why not go the other way? – Set aside a couple of hours, rack up a suite of your favorite porn, and see how long you can hold out for. Soon you’ll be having orgasms you didn’t know were possible, and it will radically improve your love life, not detract from it.
♦◊♦
Good sex is both your right and it’s within your reach – treat it like any other skill that might benefit from some focus now and then. Pornography is not always useful as an educational resource, but nor is it pure evil. Let your own feedback and the feedback from your partner be your ultimate guide, and enjoy!
Originally posted on Equality for Men and Women’s Facebook page.
For more, read Lynn Beisner’s Panda Three Way
We’re having a conversation about what it means to be a good man in the 21st century. Care to join us? Receive our daily or weekly email. Sign up here.
Image of X on black keyboard courtesy of Shutterstock
Is there a significance to exchanging the “”Z” on the typewriter / keyboard with a “W”?
What I don´t like about porn is that is makes (at least in my case) girls feel insecure. Like my boyfriend watches porn, he told me about that. Just thinking about him pleasuring himself watching other girls makes me feel really uncomfortable, cuz you know… 100% shaved bodies, no scars (cuz they use make up), no spots, strecth marks… it makes me feel that when we have sex, it´s like he´s not used to seeing my spots and stretch marks, and visually, a girl without those is considered “prettiered”. I know lots of girls have this problem. Boys in relationships… Read more »
This article is harmful. The hardcore porn industry is completely disrespectful and denigrating to women ins general, and to the women it employs. Porn adversely affects every man that uses it, no matter if he admits it or not. It reduces something God created to be special, unique, beautiful, valuable, to something that is mundane, ugly, and everyday.
Most of us would love it if sex was everyday!
I’m not sure what you mean – God did create porn or at least facilitated it. Surely our creator should have anticipated that by putting up nice blank cave walls that we would be destined to draw genitals on them, no?
God gave people free will. He doesn’t want people to have a relationship with him simply because he forced them too and took that choice away from them. He gives us a lot of room for a lot of choices. What we do with it is ultimately our choice. I also don’t think that it’s a simple matter of “drawing genitals” in a clinical way that is offensive to God. But more of how we may not fully respect our bodies by giving credence to what feels good for us first rather then thinking of others or the consequences or… Read more »
Wait, how is it you people know the mind of God?
Clearly no one entirely knows the mind of God but all we can do is go off how we interpret his teachings based on the information we have. It’s not all suppose to be mapped out to perfection. There is a little element of “faith” God quite enjoys. 🙂
Which god? Porn is sinful to some, but ok to others. God also apparently hates homosexuality too and says that is a sin in some religions, and that women should obey their husbands as he is the head of the household. No sex till marriage, yadda yadda. If god is all knowing, and all powerful, surely his/her mind-power is so great that he can see into the future and know the interactions of every molecule, thought n process in the universe? Even the bigbang would need to be created, everything would be put into place in the right order so… Read more »
Which God hates homosexuality? I am not really sure what God’s position is on homosexuality. Sometimes people take Bible passages out of context. But yes, the Bible does talk about how women should obey their husbands. However, this is not because God desires a servant/master relationship. He also gives instructions to men in the Bible about how to be good husbands. The advice he gives both men and women do come down to respecting one another in the unique way a man or woman experiences respect. I won’t pretend that I have God or regilion all figured out. If I… Read more »
Considering atoms, etc only move in a set pattern, and react to their environment, if this universe was created by an all knowing god then he’d know fully how everything interacts and know every single choice that will be made. I can’t see how logically he can be that powerful if he gave them free will, he would have to create a mental block surrounding the actions of humans or purposely block out parts of his design in his mind so he can’t predict the future. Something seems amiss to me and that always caught my eye about the theory… Read more »
I don’t pretend that I have the whole world figured out Archy. Clearly religion is also a matter of faith. It is not fully explained by science. It never will be. Heck, even some things that are explained by science are still not fully understood. Even some things that are explained by science sometimes years later come out that they weren’t true at all. Science isn’t infallible. Human understanding of the world isn’t infallible. I do know a few truths that I live my life by personally: God is real God is all knowing God created human beings to have… Read more »
I think anything is possible, hence I am agnostic, not atheist. I have no idea if a god or god’s exist or not, if they do I want a fusion power plant!
It should be noted that atheist doesn’t mean “believes there are no gods,” it means “doesn’t have a belief that there is a god.” It may seem like a semantic difference, but that difference leads to a lot of acrimony and misunderstanding. Don’t kid yourself, you’re an atheist just like Erin is. Neither you nor Erin lose any sleep in not believing in Vishnu, or Odin, or Zeus. Neither of you wonder whether you should be following Baal, whether Quetzalcoatl will grant you wisdom, or if Ishkur will spare you trouble on your journey. With respect to the hundreds of… Read more »
Nick, I respect your right to set the terms of your faith or non-faith for yourself and label yourself or not label yourself whatever title you’d like to use to express that facet of your life. However, when you begin labeling others and attaching titles to them as if it’s “truth”, in essence, dictating the terms by which I (and Archy) practice certain parts of our lives, acting like you know who I am or what I am about in combination with that, you become insulting and condesending. Don’t ever again dictate to me what my belief system is or… Read more »
Hi 5 Erin for standing up for your beliefs.
I recently read some of the Sumarian faith (Anunnaki and friends) and how the movie Prometheus was based on it. I gotta say the Sumarian setup was pretty interesting, but I find the most fascinating beliefs were the roman and greek gods (zeus, etc). I don’t believe in those faiths, but I gotta hand it to them for creativity if it isn’t the actual gods if they do exist.
That’s funny, coming from someone who’s shown no hesitance in telling others what they believe, and what their motivations are. You seem to be all in a huff and yet I don’t think you’ve actually understood what I’ve said. I didn’t say you’re an atheist, full stop. I said you’re an atheist with respect to the gods I listed, and the many hundreds of gods I didn’t, but that you’re a theist when it comes to Yahweh, the God of the bible. For the latter part of my assertion I’ve only repeated what you’ve written yourself. You’ve self-identified as a… Read more »
From Wiki: “Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.” “Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable.… Read more »
All I am asking is that you not define my religious beliefs for me. I don’t think that’s a terrible thing to ask. I think most people wouldn’t enjoy someone else characterizing their own personal beliefs. I respect your right to assuage your own religion in your life anyway you choose and choose the terms that you believe best fit your beliefs or yourself. And yes, I do understand what you are saying. I don’t think you really understand the true definition of atheism anyway. I also am not interested in answering to you for my religious beliefs either way.… Read more »
Thanks Archy. 🙂 I wanted to stick up for you too since Nick’s comments where in regards to you too a bit but I didn’t want to speak for you since that might not be fair either.
I always found Greek mythology very interesting myself. It was part of the reason I took four years of Latin in school. The history and mythology is really interesting stuff.
If one of my students had used that Wiki entry to define those terms they would have gotten a C- at best. When we use the word “atheist” without any qualifier, you can assume it to mean that someone doesn’t have a belief in any gods. However that’s not how I used the term. When we go down the list of gods, we definitely have positions on each of them. Some gods we think are possible, others fanciful. We don’t say, “well, I’m not entirely sure if the FSM exists or not. I need some more data. I’m agnostic about… Read more »
I also am not interested in answering to you for my religious beliefs either way. I don’t need an answer, I have it already. Is it not curious though that what I’ve written isn’t untrue, and yet you still have such a visceral reaction to it? Oh, and as for your question: By the way, where have I told others what they believe or what their motivations are? It looks like you’ve already answered it. You think because you’re well read that you can dictate the terms of who other people are. This isn’t the first time either; you frequently… Read more »
“I always found Greek mythology very interesting myself. It was part of the reason I took four years of Latin in school. The history and mythology is really interesting stuff.”
Thanks. It’s one of my favourite genres for movies n games.
I’m sorry Nick, but did Archy sign up for your class and that’s why you are telling him what his “grade” would be? Unfortunately for you Nick, no one here is your student and I doubt Archy is any more interested in your “grades” than I am. Have fun molding the minds of impressionable young people. At the end of the day, you clearly want the power to be able to dictate toward others what they believe in and attach labels to them. Really I get it. You’ve read a lot of books. Kudos to you. I look forward to… Read more »
I’m sorry Nick, but did Archy sign up for your class and that’s why you are telling him what his “grade” would be? To be clear, that was a comment on the Wikipedia entry, not Archy. At the end of the day, you clearly want the power to be able to dictate toward others what they believe in and attach labels to them. Yes, that’s exactly what I want. Bwah ha ha ha ha! Fear me, mere mortals, for I have the power to label a belief! Clearly you can not respect my request to not label or define my… Read more »
“To be clear, that was a comment on the Wikipedia entry, not Archy.” You said that if one of your students had used *that* Wiki entry, *they* would have gotten a C- at best. You said *they* would have received the grade. I don’t see how your comment is simply related to Wiki and not related to the person that used it. “Yes, that’s exactly what I want. Bwah ha ha ha ha! Fear me, mere mortals, for I have the power to label a belief!” Lol, I have to admit I laughed sincerely at that even if I still… Read more »
Please keep the subject on topic. Any other arguments can be taken offline.
“Part of why they’re specifically reacting to you is because your generalizations actually do include them, and the womansplaining parts have been demeaning themselves.” I feel really demeaned when you tell me my opinion is a matter of “womansplaining”. As if my having certain thoughts is only because I am a woman. Is it possible for you to stop using this phrase? It’s not a very positive one. We are all human beings and we don’t have “mansplaining” or “womansplainging” opinions. “There are things in your comments which wander from speaking of personal opinion to speaking fact, so it’s obvious… Read more »
“Part of why they’re specifically reacting to you is because your generalizations actually do include them, and the womansplaining parts have been demeaning themselves.” “I feel really demeaned when you tell me my opinion is a matter of “womansplaining”. As if my having certain thoughts is only because I am a woman. Is it possible for you to stop using this phrase? It’s not a very positive one. We are all human beings and we don’t have “mansplaining” or “womansplainging” opinions. ” Ugh, are you really having this much trouble understanding it? THERE is a huge difference between saying “I… Read more »
Women are suppose to be understanding and all smiles that men just seem to need porn no matter what the porn is doing to depict female bodies or sexuality. If you think that is what Archy and I are trying to say then yes, you are not listening to us. It’s apparently women’s fault that big penises exist in porn, although previously Danny admit that porn is mainly made for men, it’s women’s fault that they are debased in porn and apparently it’s women’s fault that men are lonely. What’s a poor man to do I guess right? Funny. After… Read more »
I agree 100%. Words are being twisted or misunderstood. I’ve never said all porn was good for instance, or that all porn was egalitarian, I dunno where she came up with that? No one NEEDS porn but it can be very beneficial to a person, it can also be very negative to another. No one needs games or other forms of entertainment, nor art, nor english, nor science, nor a car, etc. They are desires. The only thing we need is intimacy, sex, love, in order to have happiness and the lack of those can be quite detrimental to one’s… Read more »
I think part of what Erin is getting at is that men get REALLY defensive about their porn. Say, a wife knows her husband has been watching porn that day featuring ‘teens.’ She naturally feels inadequate and sad. This doesn’t make her a man-hating feme-nazi or someone trying to control your every move. She just doesn’t feel good enough. Is that so wrong? Later that night, he wants to have sex. The sex is unenjoyable because the whole time she’s wondering if he’s thinking of his teens. Why isn’t she good enough? Why isn’t there a pill to make her… Read more »
That sums it up Aya. It seems that when it comes to porn, women are expected to be made of steel. I like that explanation. We aren’t suppose to have any feelings toward it. We aren’t suppose to be bothered by reenforced messages about our beauty or youth or lack of. We aren’t suppose to be bothered by the idea that men find us and our sexuality less exciting as we get older. We are suppose to be these uber confident super human beings that don’t let anything affect us. Yet we need to be REALLY sensitive and understanding about… Read more »
“We aren’t suppose to be bothered by the idea that men find us and our sexuality less exciting as we get older. ” Depends on the man though, I see quite a lot of comments about men enjoying sex with 30+ year old women who’s are reaching their sexual peak. I’ve had friends around 25 who told me they were with 35+ year old women, the women to them weren’t as attractive physically as younger women but they were cougars in bed and their sexuality was very attractive. I think life itself with many people getting bogged down by kids,… Read more »
“Depends on the man though, I see quite a lot of comments about men enjoying sex with 30+ year old women who’s are reaching their sexual peak. I’ve had friends around 25 who told me they were with 35+ year old women, the women to them weren’t as attractive physically as younger women but they were cougars in bed and their sexuality was very attractive.” Do you and other men consider 30 old Archy? To the point that it’s suppose to be a compliment that men can even or “still” enjoy sex with 30+ year old women? I guess I… Read more »
“Do you and other men consider 30 old Archy? To the point that it’s suppose to be a compliment that men can even or “still” enjoy sex with 30+ year old women? I guess I don’t see how your comments are all that positive to women.” No, a different age bracket, I go by decades usually. 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, women in 30’s are often married with kids or have at least had 5+ more years of life experience than a 25 year old. What I consider “old” is 50+ which is the age my attraction drops off currently. The reason… Read more »
Archy and Danny–this is not directed towards you, as you both do have empathy and explain yourselves really well. Archy, I’m really glad that porn is there to have helped you through your loneliness. I can completely understand how that helps elevate your mood.
Try telling that to Erin.
One thing I could say, I dunno how this will be taken, but for purely visual alone stimulation, often it takes a far more beautiful woman to turn me on, then it does face to face. Porn does have that disconnected feeling and so I am relying pretty much on physical looks alone whereas offline there are other things going on, even just the fact that it’s reality, the bonding chemicals etc that actually make women more attractive. Trying to get a clue of what I like from porn isn’t going to work much, at best you may see what… Read more »
I think porn does cause a lot of insecurity forbecause because we have been taught since childhood that our looks are everything. If you grow up as an average or less attractive woman (as I did) or as you get older and realize you are no longer in that most desirable age bracket, it can be really hard on the self esteem. Also, being desired is a big turn on for me, so if I suspect that a man is not really attracted to my imperfect body or if he is thinking about younger, more attractive bodies while he’s with… Read more »
I think all you say is true. I’ve often wondered how close I am to the “typical porn viewer.” I don’t watch it that often (once or twice a month), never while having sex, and the participants aren’t “models” in that they have average bodies where boobs don’t defy gravity and penises aren’t longer than my forearm. But I understand this link between desire and feeling sexually expressive, and I think many men want the same thing. When a sexual partner doesn’t express desire for you, it feels very much like they’re doing you a solid. “Thanks for fixing the… Read more »
“Also, being desired is a big turn on for me, so if I suspect that a man is not really attracted to my imperfect body or if he is thinking about younger, more attractive bodies while he’s with me, it’s going to kill my desire for sex with him.” I think something to realize is that the attraction he feels to younger women may only be a bit higher than that to older women, but it depends on the man. You can feel attraction level 1000 for your partner, level 200 for a young woman in porn, level 170 for… Read more »
Archy: “I think the big problem here is that women themselves are placing too much importance on looks, I swear it seems like women care more about physical beauty than men do. ” Yeah, that’s why you said in the beginning of your post that men are more attracted to younger woman and actually attached numbers regarding a man’s attraction to a younger woman vs an older one? Because women care more about physical beauty then men do? How come it’s okay for men to rate women on scales from 1-10, how come it’s okay for you to place numbers… Read more »
“Yeah, that’s why you said in the beginning of your post that men are more attracted to younger woman and actually attached numbers regarding a man’s attraction to a younger woman vs an older one? Because women care more about physical beauty then men do?” Huh? I thought we were talking about one male? When I said “You can feel attraction level 1000 for your partner, level 200 for a young woman in porn, level 170 for an older woman.” I didn’t mean all men, just this man in particular. It also has variables of his age, the age he… Read more »
Thank you for calling me stupid and entitled. Not to mention insecure, biased and basically shallow. Thank you for undermining me as a person and my comments while making it seem like you know everything and got it all right and that everyone should listen to you. I get it perfectly Archy. You and other men are allowed to place a high importance on women’s looks. To the point that you qualify women based on numbers or are very vocal about how much men in general like younger women. Men are allowed to judge our bodies and pick us based… Read more »
Erin and Archy, please refrain from rehashing this argument over and over again on the boards and in articles similar to this one. If you would like to discuss the benefits and detriments of porn, please take it offline and discuss there.
Women can think of their value in their looks all they want, all I’m saying is it’s pointless to compare your looks to a fantasy medium that may or may not represent what he wants. I don’t understand how you find this so difficult to understand, it’s as stupid as thinking he’s a serial killer for playing GTA. I wasn’t talking at all about women’s worth, I was talking about a single man’s attraction level to various women, not every man’s. I don’t think you’ll ever understand what I am talking about because you’re reading something else in my comments… Read more »
LOL!
“And then, you hear the same guys who watch porn disrespecting women who do it. They’d never want THEIR partner to be in porn. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. Sometimes, if a woman dares to say these things, she’s pounced upon like she’s some crazy, controlling prude. ” I hate the guys that pull that shit, if you can’t respect the women in porn then don’t look at them! I can understand not wanting your partner to be in porn, but don’t disrespect the pornstars. Could I date a pornstar? Solo based porn probably, but with others I… Read more »
Question. What if my problem with your sexual use of women via porn stems not from the fact that I assume it makes you hate all women, but from the fundamental dynamic of men being able to buy sexual access to women in the first place, and from the fact that many, many (I would even say the majority of) women in the sex industry are there because they were victims of child sex abuse, they were taken advantage of by pornographers when they were young and naive and thought being in porn would be totally different, they get addicted… Read more »
Do you make a distinction between “commercial” porn and user-generated content, such as that found on the MLNP project by Cindy Gallop? That is, are you against all depictions of sexual activities between adults, or only those where you feel the consent is ill-informed or perhaps less than enthusiastic?
God, I have written you a lengthy response twice now, and this stupid page keeps refreshing the contents and deleting it at the last minute. I can’t access that site because it says “we’re beta darling, invitation only!” which turns me off in and of itself, but for the record, I’m a radical feminist who is proudly antiporn, and no, that does not mean I am against TRUE (let me stress that since the term is so misused these days, true!) erotica–which I’d define as explicit sexual material that depicts sex as being about mutuality, tenderness, gentleness, egalitarianism, and respect,… Read more »
First off PLEASE USE PARAGRAPHS “I’m a radical feminist who is proudly antiporn, and no, that does not mean I am against TRUE (let me stress that since the term is so misused these days, true!) erotica–which I’d define as explicit sexual material that depicts sex as being about mutuality, tenderness, gentleness, egalitarianism, and respect, particularly for women” I watch mostly amateur porn. It’s a mix of “solo”, women who basically masturbate, and couples who usually go oral sex on each other, sometimes it’s a 69 or she get’s it first, then him, then they move on to PIV, he… Read more »
Sorry, forgot that it’s still in beta. Cindy Gallop gave a short TED talk about her vision of redefining porn. She agree with you about the deleterious effects of commercial porn on young people, but her solution isn’t to throw out the entire industry but rather to redefine it. One of the couples contributing videos to the project have put up some trailers on their blog: Uncommon Appetites. I wonder if this type of pornography might still be objectionable to you. There are a few things worth noting about some of your other objections. First, there is a strong correlation… Read more »
I’ve seen women commenting on the GMP basically showing anger that men have “easy access to sex” with porn, that they don’t “need” a woman, the comments looked like women were actually threatened by it. It did appear to look like the women were worried their erotic capital was losing value. It can appear in some cases at least, men want more sex, women want it more restricted. Do these women in particular feel like sex is their only drawcard?
Quite a bit of your rationalization is old school circular thinking radical feminism Stephanie – the notion that women cannot give meaningful consent due to the ubiquitous forces of patriarchy and male domination, requires a state of false consciousness for those that do provide consent, placing many forms of sexuality into the category of rapey – satisfying the premise of domination.
That my forced desire to sexually please my partner renders me incapable of making willful decisions is a moral landscape that belongs back in the 70’s
Despite being in my thirties, you’re dead right–I’m an old school radical feminist. I don’t deny women their “agency” (and the academic speak works my nerves, as it does for many working class women outside the pomo university world)–patriarchy denies women our agency. Pretending male dominance isn’t alive and well and shaping everything about our sexual choices and what we learn to respond to seems a waste of time to me, but certainly it’ll make you more popular with most men out there. This sentence is feels convoluted and I have a hard time deciphering the last part of it:… Read more »
Because unattractive men have such an easy time of it…
Also, you should get your history right. Pornography has been around for millennia. Most of those cave paintings they’ve found? Porn.
It was good to have your voice while it lasted. Please come back again sometime.
Thanks for catching this Nick. This is just what I mean when I (and others) talk about how women deny the experiences of men. And apprently we are supposed to believe that porn went from totally nonexistent to all over the place in the last 50 or so years…. In this culture, if a woman is considered too fat, old, ugly or unattractive to get a guy, tough, she has to deal with it. Men should have to do the same, So does that mean that along with this whole “deal with it” we should be get rid of all… Read more »
Why should I come back? So you can ridicule me some more? This site just feels like a bunch of men complaining about how tough life is for them and how easy women have it, which is about like white folks complaining about how life is so easy if you’re black–it’s absurd? You’re comparing CAVE PAINTINGS to a multi billion dollar industry that profits off of depicting sex as “Man does to woman” and destroys so many women’s lives. Please, please, go find some pics of cave paintings in an anthropology book or a photo of the Venus of Willendorf… Read more »
Wow, from “scared and sad” to such vitriol. I’m not sure why you feel ridiculed, but that certainly wasn’t my intent. I’m also quite baffled as to why you feel “attacked.” Because I disagreed with some of what you wrote? Should I feel “attacked” because you disagree with me? You’ve gotta help us out here – who is attacking you? What did they say that you felt was an attack? Here’s the thing, though. My response about the cave paintings was to your comment that pornography has only been around for “centuries.” Indeed, the earliest examples of human created art… Read more »
“This site just feels like a bunch of men complaining about how tough life is for them and how easy women have it, which is about like white folks complaining about how life is so easy if you’re black–it’s absurd?” Comparing men vs women to blacks vs whites is a true sign of ignorance. You can’t compare them, the oppression to a minority was much different to the oppression towards pretty much 50% of the population. Then you have to consider that men were actually oppressed by things like conscription whereas people were never opressed for being white. Maybe it’s… Read more »
Yeah, I am really in agreement with StephanieC here. A couple cave drawing on the wall from yester-year is nothing like the medium we have today. I don’t fault people’s curiosity in sex. It just seems like voyerism is what people want their sexuality to be, it seems like there is a passiveness in sexuality today that didn’t exist before as much because people are using more visual mediums to self please. We are in a golden age of porn. A few short 20-30 years ago men were NOT THIS involved with porn. Today? I suspect that a lot of… Read more »
“I am also in agreement with Stephanie about the level of attacking that is going on in this subject. There are a few posters that feel it’s their right to repeatidly label other people here.” Who is attacking who? Do you mean me when I say you are womansplaining? If so I am trying to point out the arrogance in assuming what men think, feel or do, everytime I’ve seen men do this they’ve often been blasted as misogynist. You may not mean to do it but that is how it’s coming across, it doesn’t mean you can’t voice your… Read more »
First off – don’t insinuate that my beliefs are born from my need to be more popular with men. Please strike this thought from any further conversations you wish to have between us. I do not “pretend” my beliefs. I’ve read a ton of Dworkin and Mackinnon (people you’ve quoted) and their work references exactly the message I conveyed in my post above. It’s their position that meaningful consent cannot exist in a culture of porn and male domination – not mine. Their position necessitates a state of false consciousness for any woman who makes decisions contrary to their world… Read more »
I like how someone against the removal of female agency, a radfem, takes away your agency by suggesting you’re trying to be popular with the boys….
Anyone who thinks meaninful consent isn’t possible in our western worlds for women really needs a wakeup call to reality. What’s with this whole view of women being the innocent lil flowers, men being the super-oppressors who force women into bed every time? It’s fucking disgusting, and misandrous AND misogynist all in one.
I get depressed when i feel totally alone. Pretty human, normal reaction. Again, I don’t get why you feel more like critiquing me as another woman rather than some of the outlandishly woman-hating shit men have said on here. We live in a patriarchal culture, and that shapes our desires and choices, women and men’s, yours and mine. I’m being called a misogynist by men, spoken too very condescendingly while you get their respect. Must feel good for you. Doesn’t for me though. I don’t think the desire to be popular with men is a conscious choice always, and I… Read more »
Way to go out on a melodramatic note. I share Elisa’s opinion that you characterizing others engaging with you as an attack is very odd. For myself, I’ve always felt that if my beliefs wither and fade under outside critique then they weren’t worth holding in the first place. If, on the other hand, they hold up against questioning then they’re all the stronger for it. It’s an attitude I had hoped is learned by freshman year in college, but perhaps that hope is unfounded.
I swear I typed two esses there, elissa. Sorry about that.
Ok Stephanie – this exchange seems to be causing you undue stress, and I do get that you may be feeling like a lone ranger on here. This place can be pretty diverse.
No worries Nick. I have a similar issue with my keyboard – I need to strike the “s” key twice to get one “s” to publish on the internet. I’ve narrowed down the cause to my eating crumbly things over the keyboard.
I keep seeing this… women coming to this site and declaring that men’s honest thoughts and opinions are “depressing and hateful and make me sad.”
Should this be considered a shaming tactic? an attempt to get men to shut up and not express their views? Or is it just the usual entitlement attitude of “I’m not happy with what you said, so you’d damn well better do something about it”?
In my opinion, thise women, are people who somehow are bein hurt by porn or taught that porn is bad. I know tons of women who also watch porn or are not offended by it. So the position of some of the users on this site, is not universally applicable to all women. There are also guys who claim they dont watch porn and are opposed to it, but again their position are not applicable to all guys. The analogy I make is the opposition lot of men (and women) have against feminism (who seems to be a cursed topik… Read more »
“women coming to this site and declaring that men’s honest thoughts and opinions are “depressing and hateful and make me sad. Should this be considered a shaming tactic?” The “hateful” part, yes. The “makes me sad” part, no. That’s just women expressing their experience. When something makes you sad and depressed, it makes you sad and depressed. It doesn’t mean that the world has to change for you. Some empathy and understanding would be *nice* but it’s not a guarantee. Say, my hypothetical son chose to go to the army. It would make me sad and depressed, and I think… Read more »
“Doesn’t for me though. I don’t think the desire to be popular with men is a conscious choice always, and I have done all sorts of things for male approval in my life” You’re denying her agency, how is that not misogynistic? You’re ignoring what she is saying, you’re womansplaining her to boot. You’re TELLING HER THAT HER EXPERIENCE IS DIFFERENT TO WHAT SHE IS SAYING. “Enjoy these men, they clearly like you. ” You’re being sexist to her. How can you not see that?! It’s plainly obvious like the sky is blue. “We live in a patriarchal culture, and… Read more »
” If women don’t want to do something in bed, men get to use their economic and social power to ensure that there is always SOME CLASS of women somewhere who will do what they want.” Wow, really? you’re choosing this argument? Women have done this since time began, women use their dating power to find a partner who will behave how they want to get sex. Both men n women can goto a sex worker, both men and women can look at porn, yet you focus only on the men? Why? Do you think women rarely look at porn?… Read more »
I figured Erin was a woman. I can’t even find her comments on her, reading through a lot of yours and other guys, I get hung up. No I don’t think all men who use pornography are into overt violence, but Playboy was degrading enough to make me feel terrible as a little girl.
Can’t say I really looked at playboy, if I did it was just basically “look, boobies”, I was too young to be turned on by it. My porn started with internet porn and even then I was going for amateur porn as I felt the pro porn stuff felt too fake, too disconnected from reality. I only ever wanted to basically imagine being with a gf as I was single for a long time.
Nowadays, we’re expected to be “enthusiastic” about having dick rammed way down our throats or getting fucked in the ass, and you basically have two choices–work yourself into a mindset of learning to experience your own subordination as sexual, or spend a hell of a lot of time alone. I actually kind of agree with you, here, Stephanie (although I’m a porn watcher myself.) I remember when I was 19, and first started having sex, my boyfriend jammed his dick down my throat without asking (after we’d had a big dinner), and I threw up all over him. I felt… Read more »
I’m really sorry that happened to you Aya.That sounds awful, I’m so sorry. I would like to believe there are still some guys in the world who wouldn’t want to do that to a woman, who still like just being close and gentle, but I don’t know anymore. Linda Marciano who was in deep throat got away from the guy who made porn of her and was able to find a husband who loved her I guess, even though she ultimately committed suicide…nobody cares about that though, people just talk about what a classic that film was now and giving… Read more »
My partner deepthroated me, but I’m not really that long, average size. I left it up to her, kept asking if she was ok and she was fine with it. I’m probably not long enough to be uncomfy so I guess that helped, but I didn’t force her into it. I did rest my hand on her head for a little bit but I was stroking her hair n scalp, she did the action itself. EVERYTHING we did we talked about first, “You can kiss me if you want”, “You can touch this if you want”. I left the ball… Read more »
Yeah, Archy. The importance here is consent and that’s how you do it. Deep throating is by no means ‘degrading.’ It can be extremely sexy. It’s just a matter of doing it in a way that makes both parties comfortable. It’s not one sided either. There could also be things that she might want to try that you’re not comfortable with (like that woman in another thread who requested a threesome, but her partner didn’t feel comfortable), and you’re allowed to say no too.
I remember when I was 19, and first started having sex, my boyfriend jammed his dick down my throat without asking (after we’d had a big dinner), and I threw up all over him. I’m so you were put through such terrible treatment. And as a guy and porn watcher yes that is terrible treatment and speaks to just what Erin has been talking about when it comes to some of the guys that get unhealthy beliefs about sex from porn. It’s one thing to see it in porn and want to bring it up in the actual bedroom but… Read more »
It’s one thing to see it in porn and want to bring it up in the actual bedroom but to just do it, that’s a fucking line one should never cross. Danny, you are right on point. A lot of the people who do get sex education from porn really aren’t bad people, though. They just don’t KNOW. They haven’t had the experience or access to any real education about sex. And it’s not all men either. I’ve been having sex with a man who has watched his fair share of porn. He had spent a lot of years being… Read more »
I meant to italicize your quote, Danny, but forgot. -_-
No problem. I’ll respond once I get home from work and can think.
A lot of the people who do get sex education from porn really aren’t bad people, though. They just don’t KNOW. They haven’t had the experience or access to any real education about sex. True indeed. With the two guys you mention. One of my friends (we’re close enough to talk about this kind of thing) told me how he ruined things with a girl because he couldn’t orgasm without porn. He said she was beautiful, did nothing wrong, but he was just so used to the porn dynamic and his own hand. Here’s the thing. It would be easy… Read more »
Aya, I have had simliar experiences to you with men just doing things to your body without asking you if you would even enjoy them. I see a lot of heavily influence in some men’s sexual actions that I do think come from porn. It sometimes feels like men don’t want you to be a human being but this thing they do things too to masturbate in or on. I think that porn disconnects in general so it doesnt’ surprise me that men fall victim to behaving this way sometimes. I also sometimes wonder just how okay men really are… Read more »
“I personally think that alot of men give women lip service about teling them how beautiful they are or stuff a long this lines. ” Wow, some women really do want to be the special woman that no one else is more beautiful than? Just how entitled do you feel to be the most beautiful woman on Earth? There is ALWAYS going to be a more physically attractive person than you. You will age, your looks will fade, but attraction isn’t all about looks. Believe it or not but men are also attracted to personalities and I dare say most… Read more »
“Wow, some women really do want to be the special woman that no one else is more beautiful than? Just how entitled do you feel to be the most beautiful woman on Earth?” I never said that a woman wanted to be the most beautiful woman on Earth. I said she wanted to be the most beautiful woman to her man. She doesn’t ask the whole world to think she is gorgeous. Why is that “entitled”? Telling a woman she is simply entitled because she wants to be the most beautiful woman to her man is like telling a man… Read more »
“I think it’s really unfair that men get to judge women and their femininity by their looks but women are not allowed to feel beautiful and feminine in a man’s appreciation of her looks. I think it’s really unfair that we demand women experience a higher evolution of self acceptance when men don’t even know how to accept women for wh othe yreally are in real life for their real bodies and their real sexuality. I think it’s crappy that we tell women that they are “shallow” for worrying about their looks but we justify men looking at 18 year… Read more »
“Generalize some more why don’t you….” I will, thank you. I have never shied away from the fact that I sometimes make generalizations. That’s how I talk about topics. It’s not going to change no matter how often you try to shame me for it. “..of course you’re going to feel inadequate if you compare yourself to extremely beautiful women on your looks alone. Very few women win the genetic lotto + have the lifestyle that supports being in that super-hot category of people. But do you think a guy or girl looking at porn of those super hotties ONLY… Read more »
I’ve suggested this before, but why don’t you and Archy just argue this offline? It is obviously very personal to both of you and the same arguments come up again and again here on the threads. I’m not sure that there is a reconciliation possible without personal communication.
“And yet, despite men having partners they are mentally and physically attached to, a lot of men still look at other women and porn. So apparently it’s not really a matter of mental and physical attraction being “better”. Because if it was, once a man had that, he wouldn’t look at porn. But many men in relationships still do. ” This is a tough one to answer, I have a feeling that many humans are more poly than monogymous. But I see members of both sexes still looking at porn, and members of the sex they’re attracted to even on… Read more »
“In this culture, if a woman is considered too fat, old, ugly or unattractive to get a guy, tough, she has to deal with it. Men should have to do the same, and they did perfectly fine for centuries without pornography.” Number 1 selling book in the UK was a porn novel for women. Your point is pretty null n voided considering how much fantasy material exists for women and considering how many women now look at porn. Those “fat, old, ugly women” can also buy vibrators, and sex toys that give more pleasure than male based ones I’d say,… Read more »
women do what we think will make men love us Archy.
“women do what we think will make men love us Archy.”
Some do, and some men do the same. I know of many men that tirelessly devote themselves to their partner. You do realize men do a lot to try get women to love them, just as women do the same? We’re not actually all that different?
Nobody likes bad sex, but I don’t think bad sex is unique to this era. I have mixed feelings about porn, as I’ve said in earlier comments. However, I started haing sex before the Internet age (I’m 45) and there was bad sex and selfish lovers back then too. We used to complain about “wham bam thank you ma’am” sex. Now maybe the complaints are about overly athletic, disconnected, porn-y sex. But the underlying issues are the same. I’ve learned over the years that, yes, some guys are just selfish in bed. But most guys desperately want to please their… Read more »
It would make me feel really happy if a man would stop using pornography for me. I feel traumatized by it. I can’t do it, I’ve tried to force myself to watch it before at very low periods in my life, and it just makes me wish I was dead. I don’t think men understand how forbidden a woman is from admitting that she hates pornography nowadays, but I hate it, and it is not the same for women as for men. Most men in porn or hideous and what’s eroticized for women is being weak and passive and fucked… Read more »
” you don’t know what it’s like for young women. ”
Some women also like porn. I think some people see what they want to see. For some porn is hopelesly antiwoman and yet there women who watch also porn. So IMO its a emotive problem, not rational.
“None of these men on here care.”
Not true, lots of guys here care and the majority if not all guys, want to make the woman happy. Just because we dont agree, doesent mean we dont care.
Who says we don’t care? We just don’t agree with your view of what porn is. I’m sorry you went through something so traumatic but do you really expect us to give it up because sometimes bad shit happens? If someone was abused during a movie at the cinema, would you expect movies to be banned?
You don’t have to date a person who looks at porn, but don’t expect everyone else to follow your worldview because of your past and what you see as a medium that is only ever bad. There is good in that medium…
Really, you’ve always had the power to say no? Not every woman is as lucky as you.
Unless you are in an abusive relationship where your life is in danger, you always have the power to say no. And even if your life is in danger, there are resources to help. But, I assume we are not talking about those kind of extreme circumstances. You seem to be referring to ordinary male-female power dynamics where you feel women are being pressured into sexual activities they don’t like because of the influence of porn. I believe most women have the power to say “no” to relationships, and to say “no” within relationships. Maybe in some cases a woman… Read more »
“What if my problem with your sexual use of women via porn stems not from the fact that I assume it makes you hate all women, but from the fundamental dynamic of men being able to buy sexual access to women in the first place, and from the fact that many, many (I would even say the majority of) women in the sex industry are there because they were victims of child sex abuse, they were taken advantage of by pornographers when they were young and naive and thought being in porn would be totally different, they get addicted to… Read more »
When I buy porn I don’t buy “sexual access” to them. I buy their pictures. Which are infinitely inferior to access to a real woman who’s that enthusiastic about sex. Nevertheless, I suppose I buy those pictures because a picture better than nothing and is sometimes preferable to a woman who’s not willing and enthusiastic about sex. I think the gripe has something to do with men being able to sidestep women’s ability to dictate men’s access to sex–even if that access is just a marginally better masturbation experience. If women want men to lay off the porn, be better… Read more »
Archy, I think sometimes abuse survivors choose situations that replicate the abuse. Even if a pattern is devastating to you and you’d like something better, if it’s all you really know, sometimes you keep on reproducing it–and that’s particularly true for women, most of whom are literally obsessed with trying not to displease men. One of my first responses to abuse was to go through a 2 year period of severe anorexia. I definitely chose to starve myself–my food intake was something I had control over, and in a sick way, that made me feel powerful. But I’m glad people… Read more »
Do you ever watch porn? I watch pretty much only amateur content by couples who make their own porn, the pleasure is usually equally distributed, they have oral with each other and have sex, or just oral together, etc. I also watch solo “webcam” live shows by women who do it as a source of income. I’ve also mutually masturbated with a friend on our webcams. Do you expect me to believe the majority of those people were abused and are acting it out? I can understand your concern for pro porn, I share the same concerns over the working… Read more »
Stephanie and Erin, I respect your opinions but that’s all they are. They are no more valid than those who totally disagree with you. And, your arguments are unlikely to change many minds on this subject and convince men to stop viewing porn anymore than it will stop women from using phallic sex toys.
I don’t think anything I have to say will stop men from looking at porn Eric. Porn is here to stay. Men win, don’t worry. But I am not going to pretend I think it’s great and positive for men or women and our relationships.
The fact is porn doesn’t treat men like it treats women. So I think it’s easier for men to accept because it centers around male fantasy first.
And what are us women suppose to do? We are suppose to accept that men want all these other visuals of other women but we are suppose to also be totally confident and vulnerable with our men even in the face of him routinally seeking out material that is all about enjoying the sexuality of other women on a regular basis. We are suppose to remain unaffected by his porn use even as he is affected by it. I am not suppose to question what this means and what this says or not feel confused about what that means for… Read more »
Porn doesn’t give men an unfair advantage with regard to sex. It helps level the playing field, evening out the effect of testosterone, or whatever other biological factors give (most) men a relatively higher sex drive than their partners.
But, go on rambling about sex needing to be more egalitarian and less capitalistic. In most relationships, the man is paid in scrip and their partner runs the company store.
It’s also possible that fantasies behave like release valves, and only when this gismo somehow corrodes, that issues creep in. It’s also possible that we need to fantasize with submission, to keep our empathy skills sharp. Like dreams – those free-running, unencumbered by physical bodies, free-falling obsessed episodes of nightly unconsciousness – their purposes could be to manage some human weakness on an erasable whiteboard. Or maybe not. Just to say that there are alternate ways of seeing it as a feature rather than a bug, unless it becomes a bug, to which the porn hounds on this thread seem… Read more »
Sarah: But, what about all the guys who DO like seeing porn where women are degraded or abused? I have read comments from guys (not here) who argue that liking that kind of porn means nothing and it doesn’t reflect any feelings they have about women, that’s what bugs me. OF COURSE it means something. I’ll be the first to agree that to the guys that are into that stuff it does mean something. In fact I wager that something plays a big role in why a lot of guys don’t do that kind of stuff. There was an article… Read more »
“There was an article in Slate.com yesterday about a woman who is a dominatrix and she talked about how it’s an outlet for her anger. She talked about once punching a boyfriend in the face and another time she got angry at her boyfriend and she grabbed a whip. The scene she’s part of sounded pretty dark to me. But she impressed me as self-aware, actually. She admits she’s angry and doesn’t pretend otherwise.” Punch a man in the face, she must be so self-aware! Is this girlpower to you Sarah? The way you made it sound….is odd. Abuse is… Read more »
Well I thought she was self aware, not that she was admirable in any way! She admits she is angry which many males in her situation would not. Instead, they would emphasize that it’s all a consensual fantasy and claim they weren’t actually angry at women. But she’s like, yeah, I’m angry, and I’m even abusive at times to men because I’m angry. Again, I don’t find that admirable, but she’s honest about it, that was what I was pointing out. Actually the article felt kind a creepy to me, I’m glad I don’t have any urges to be part… Read more »
Fair enough that don’t find her impressive, my bad on the misread. Instead, they would emphasize that it’s all a consensual fantasy and claim they weren’t actually angry at women. And do you know why they do that? Because men are already stigmatized as violent so when it comes to a man committing violence he is more likely to be condemned than a woman. While the woman you speak of has a strike against her for being into what seems to be kink if this were a man he would start off with two strikes, being into kink and being… Read more »
I hear you, it’s a bind. I think what I am running into here intellectually is trying to understand for myself “why do some men (and women) like this kind of porn that I find so demeaning and disturbing, are they angry? What is it?” and some guys insist they aren’t angry, but then you are saying even if they were angry, they couldn’t admit it. I am honestly trying to understand it without going off onto a shrill and judgmental anti-porn stance, but some of the stuff out there does scare me and it bothers me that’s it’s popular.… Read more »
“why do some men (and women) like this kind of porn that I find so demeaning and disturbing, are they angry? What is it?” I think one possible explanation for it (no matter how badly some folks want to pretend it doesn’t happen) is that (at least with guys) they get to a point of emptiness and loneliness that they eventually conclude “why should I care about other people when no one cares about me?”. Once that happens it’s not a giant leap to see how they would embrace things that others call demeaning. And I think there is some… Read more »
Fabulous comments. The men not admitting the anger is the problem, so true, good point. What I find, and yes I’m a therapist, sue me!!!…is that the men are projecting onto the woman in the porn, that she is their caregiver (we all do this, I call it MOTHERFUCKING) and these men most likely did NOT get their needs met as an infant, or a child, and are screaming out in rage and want to punish their caregiver. However, the fact that these men, nor society, have any insight, or even a dialogue, about the increased violence against women is… Read more »
PeggyD, the best and actually the only way, is to ask the guys the why’s on porn. Otherwise, frankly its just intellectual masturbation akin to daydreaming. And what you describe, it doesent sound like porn but more like slasher movies. Read Danny, read Archy and others, there have been tons of explanation both in this topik and similar. And frankly im getting a bit tired of women jumping in and pointing fingers. Personally? I think that blaming others and coming with harsh judgement, followed by closure on the topik is more a common female behaviour. Also some guys do this,… Read more »
“If women increasingly in large numbers got turned on by 10 year-old boys being brutalized by old men or women, men would FREAK OUT” Wtf, are you trying to suggest there is a large number of men being turned on by child porn and it’s increasing? I’d say they’re a minority, a very smallll minority. The big problem are those anti-porn crusaders who try to state porn is so harmful to women, and then guys say they don’t look at violent porn only to be disbelieved and told they’re in denial. I’ve seen a lot of porn and the majority… Read more »
@Danny, I don’t find her impressive at all. She actually sounds like someone with major issues. That was my point, sorry if I didn’t make it well.
Thank you to everyone who has posted comments about this article. You have done so with intelligence, passion, care, and much input from your own personal experience, which can be a big ask in a public forum. In doing so, you have raised at least as many interesting and important points as anything that the original opener. I appreciate the appreciation, it’s been very touching – thank you. I also appreciate the points of disagreement, especially those of you that have spoken against the trend of the discussion. Diversity of perspective is crucial. Several people have called me on my… Read more »
You said: “It saddens me that so much misogynistic porn is still around, and still being made… but then, it also saddens me that our analysis of gender politics and sexuality so thoroughly rips men to shreds. I’m not sure who, if anyone, wins, overall.” And it saddens me how much porn rips real woman’s sexuality to shreds, real women’s bodies, real women’s feelings and needs in favor of a largely dominated male industry that caters to mostly male desires and whims, even in the porn that you probably don’t personally consider degrading. But we don’t ever stop to consider… Read more »
“And it saddens me how much porn rips real woman’s sexuality to shreds, real women’s bodies, real women’s feelings and needs in favor of a largely dominated male industry that caters to mostly male desires and whims, even in the porn that you probably don’t personally consider degrading. But we don’t ever stop to consider how porn rips apart real feminity or women. Simply because it brings men pleasure.” What complete n utter bullshit. Porn has been the subject of thought policing for decades. It’s been studied in depth, a lot of literature is written on how harmful it can… Read more »
I spoke from a very honest place Archy. There is nothing in my comments there that is “bullshit”. I believe, truly believe that porn rips apart real woman’s feminity and sexuality. And I undesrtand that men don’t want to be ripped apart for their sexuality but neither do women. Yet everyday in the land of porn, there is proof of how real women and their real feminity and sexuality is being stolen in favor of an over fantasized ideal that is largely domianted by male desire first and most. I also get the impression that too many today are currently… Read more »
I meant bullshit to porn not being debated, not that some women don’t feel ripped apart. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear enough. “So much that when I make comments about how degrading porn is toward women, I think men feel like I’m saying *he* is degrading toward women.” Part of why they’re specifically reacting to you is because your generalizations actually do include them, and the womansplaining parts have been demeaning themselves. There are things in your comments which wander from speaking of personal opinion to speaking fact, so it’s obvious why men (especially me) are getting defensive… Read more »
Fascinating post, Roger. Discussing one’s sexual likes and dislikes in the context of what your mate has just done in bed can prove a slippery slope requiring the most delicate of handling. Finding a way to say you didn’t enjoy that without actually saying you “didn’t enjoy that” is a necessity. Handled poorly, sexual discussions can quickly degenerate into accusations and bruised feelings. (Perhaps this tension about sexual matters speaks to deeper problems within the relationship—I won’t argue that point.) I’d say this, though, if a relationship ever becomes contentious as regards sexual discussion you can probably kiss goodbye most… Read more »
Porn is way easier than sex with another person. I’m a relatively unemotional person and other people’s emotions usually are draining to me. And prostitutes are expensive and illegal so that leaves the simplest way as porn. In my teens and twenties I had an active normal sex life but too many women became emotionally attached even after they said they could handle FWB. After that I became celibate and just had friends and even without sex several of them wanted to be in relationships. So I just decided to have lesbian friends or female friends who thought I was… Read more »
Sounds like a plan, Doc. Enjoy!
Ladies, do you think porn can be something that you have playing on a screen while you and your partner are engaged in your normal sexual activities? It can heighten his pleasure. You might even start to enjoy it yourself. Think of it as kind of a present for him. You’re going to get the benefits. Think of it as a sex toy. You don’t look like the women in the porn movies? Well, I’m guessing that your partner probably doesn’t look like the men either.
I can’t think of a worse situation then being intimate with my man while he wants to watch porn of other women getting sexed up. Why don’t I heighten his pleasure? I would wonder. Why does he need a video to do it? Why doesn’t he want to focus on us and what we can bring each other? Why should I be subject to his heightened pleasure through other women just so I can do all the work that finally gets him off? that seems like a very disconnected way to have sex. And a very selfish one. And one… Read more »
Yeah I kind of agree, if a guy prefers to watch porn stars then he should go do that, what does he need me for? I’m probably not as negative about porn as you are Erin but I admit it makes me uncomfortable. I don’t think watching porn automatically means that a guy hates women or wants to hurt women in his real life, but that kind of porn is extremely popular and do I believe that it must speak to a dark part of the male psyche. I don’t think someone can enjoy porn where women are being abused… Read more »
Honestly, I wouldn’t want some of my fantasies put on a screen – I’m not even comfortable sharing my fantasies with my boyfriend.
I was going to ask you and Erin, how is using porn as Shirlhock described [as an erotic stimulant] different than roleplaying or sharing fantasies while in bed.
But from your sentence above I understand now. It is a privacy issue for you, even fantasies are private. Perhaps Erin too does not share fantasies with partner
Why have sex at all James if a man wants to watch porn anyway? If a man needs porn to heighten his desire for his partner, maybe he isn’t with the right person. Do you think it’s fun to be with a man and watch him get turned on by other really beautiful women and then use you inbtweeen peeks at the movie on screeen?Seems to me that the video/movie isn’t the only toy being used here. That perhaps the real life woman is also a toy in a way because she is only one half of the whole of… Read more »
“The best of both worlds I guess? Is that what men are saying?” Some men maybe, others probably not. The only person I see talking about women as body parts is you, I suspect every man commenting here see’s woman as whole beings whereas you are seeing them as body parts whilst men jerk off to porn. The view you talk about with people and porn usage is quite literally one of the most degrading views I’ve ever heard of, I can understand that some men may think like this but truly how many? Do you think the majority of… Read more »
For all the people trying to say men n women are the same, I have to wonder if it’s true. There must be a reason men are so visually stimulated. As you have noticed fantasy and reality are very different, I’ve had fantasies about being James Bond, but who would want to be that really? Looking over your shoulder? Love of your life gets murdered, what a miserable fucking life. It could be that men are just more visually stimulated fullstop so porn may not do much for the average woman, but for the average man it could turn him… Read more »
Sarah said: “I’m probably not as negative about porn as you are Erin but I admit it makes me uncomfortable. I don’t think watching porn automatically means that a guy hates women or wants to hurt women in his real life, but that kind of porn is extremely popular and do I believe that it must speak to a dark part of the male psyche. I don’t think someone can enjoy porn where women are being abused and not feel a lot of unconscious hostility toward women. (I realize not all guys like that kind of porn.” I am pretty… Read more »
Those chemicals are released in all pleasurable activities. I feel you are focusing way too much on the brain re-wiring and assuming these men are being reprogrammed by porn somehow, this might be true for some men but I’d say the majority have always found porn itself to be good, and that it really doesn’t change them all that much if at all. The only thing porn did for me really is make me think hmm, that might be fun to try, I’ll ask my partner if she wants to try the reverse cowgirl, but I’ve had the same thoughts… Read more »
Well like I said, I think we ALL feel a certain amount of hostility towards others that we know we can’t express in reality, and probably don’t want to. Why do so many people enjoy the fantasy of being a mob boss? Because it’s a thrilling power trip. I think the desire to watch women degraded in porn (to the extent someone likes that kind of porn) comes from the same place in the psyche, so in that sense it is a symptom of misogyny i.e. “hatred of women.” but that doesn’t mean a guy who likes to see women… Read more »
Thing is the fantasies only apply to some, yet too often many women will think ALL men like the degrading stuff. Not only that but they seem to regularly misunderstand what the men desire from porn, their own insecurities cloud their vision and they start to try guess what the man is thinking, get it wrong, and beat themselves up over assumptions men are misogynists, want to degrade women etc, meanwhile the men are probably thinking “yay, boobies” and not anywhere near as bad as what many women most likely assume.
It sounds like your are downplaying the way women can feel and think about the subject because you think the way you approach the subject is better. It’s like you are reducing the way women view the subject because you think the way you view it is the “right” way. I don’t think that’s fair.
You said: “Those chemicals are released in all pleasurable activities. I feel you are focusing way too much on the brain re-wiring and assuming these men are being reprogrammed by porn somehow, this might be true for some men but I’d say the majority have always found porn itself to be good, and that it really doesn’t change them all that much if at all. “ It’s true for “human beings” Archy! There are some good articles on this website that attack this issue from a medical standpoint and show the way that porn re-wires the brain. If a man… Read more »
“I guess you understand women so much better that your comments toward me are completely valid right? You’re just so much better at understanding women and men that your points are the “right ones”. Congrats on being such a better more well rounded person who apparently gets women and men so much better that your comments are so equal and fair to both sides. ” I believe I understand men better, seeing as I am a man, and have talked about sex and other topics with men quite a lot, I am a man who looks at porn thus have… Read more »
Actually, when men claim up or lie about their sexual fantasies and desires, it’s usually because a women in their lives has ‘trained’ them to do so by punishing honesty and openness. Sometimes all it takes is a “Gee, your opinion makes me sad and depressed” to teach men that it’s better to lie to you.
For sure Copyleft, if a man does anything, usually it’s a woman’s fault why he did it. If a woman does infact feel sad and depressed about a response he gives, what should she do instead? Hide it? Not be hoenst with him? Because her honesty is hurful to him? So he is allowed to be honest but what is she suppose to do? Suck it up and shut up? And if she is honest about how she feels it’s her fault if he lies to her to save her feelings? What is the answer here if a woman is… Read more »
Gross generalization, not surprising considering the source.
What I’m getting at is focused on this particular topic, on this particular forum. The goal here is for MEN to expore and discuss issues that matter to MEN (see the title?). If women keep showing up and condemning men for voicing their honest opinions, the purpose of the site is defeated. If women find our comments enlightening, great; if they find them sad and depressing, that’s too bad. But the conversation is still going to happen.
How is it it’s okay for you to both put me down and generalize and that’s acceptable in your book but you think it’s okay to “call me out” for what you perceive to be “gross generalizations. You don’t get to say things like “not surprising considering the source” in your attempts to passively aggressively put me down. That’s wrong Copyleft. You also have made your fair share of generalizations. When you said, ” Actually, when men claim up or lie about their sexual fantasies and desires, it’s usually because a women in their lives has ‘trained’ them to do… Read more »
Not that anyone asked, but I want both to say what’s on their mind. “If a woman does infact feel sad and depressed about a response he gives, what should she do instead?” Give a response, but try avoid painting all men like that is what I’d like. My problem comes from when an individual male replies, and a woman comes in and blasts men as a group instead of that lone male. The demonization part comes when the good parts are overlooked n the bad parts are clung to like they’re the only thing that exists. I’m glad women… Read more »
“Those chemicals are released in all pleasurable activities. I feel you are focusing way too much on the brain re-wiring and assuming these men are being reprogrammed by porn somehow, this might be true for some men but I’d say the majority have always found porn itself to be good, and that it really doesn’t change them all that much if at all.” Archy, brain re-wiring is true for human beings! We are SO easily adapted to the material we regularly consume. It’s the reason that Amish people live very muted lives cut off from modern convience. Brain re-wiring happens… Read more »
“It even happens in women and IS happening in women since women are more accepting of masculine dominated porn and adopting fantasies that are in general, have an imbalance of male desire/pleasure first. Which is great for men but women are loosing something in themselves by this imbalance.” It’s up to women to demand and consume the porn they want, also men to demand more equal porn. Women do have agency you know, they too can select porn that is egalitarian in nature, if women are accepting that kind of porn then doesn’t that also mean they like putting male… Read more »
I wish more men were open to talking about those scarey dark places that some men go to in their porn world. I would totally be open to talking about that, if I ever went to any of those scary dark places. But that stuff has never been appealing to me, so I’ve never had to grapple with my preferences being in conflict with my idealism. I imagine it would be like women who have rape fantasies. I mean, rape is a terrible thing and obviously she doesn’t really want to be raped. Yet still the fantasy persists and is… Read more »
Lies, you’re a man, of course you have those dark fantasies. God, some of the women here really are scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to guess what us men are thinking huh? At least she is saying only some men have it, kudos for that, but others are pretty much implying ALL of us men have those dark places.
How much is confirmation bias tainting their view of porn? If you seek out bad porn, you’ll find it. Do you ladies actually try to find good porn?
Isn’t “good” porn the stuff I watch and “bad” porn the stuff that doesn’t turn me on? I’ve certainly been with women who were turned on by the idea of being “forced” or “raped” or “taken” or whatever the pc phrase is. They didn’t have much trouble getting the point across and I didn’t have much trouble enjoying the fantasy. It’s not a terribly “dark” thing at all. No more so, anyway, than a roller coaster or bungee jump or sky diving. Less so, I’d say, in the sense that sky diving and bungees carry more than an illusion of… Read more »
I would argue that rspe fantasies, or any fantasy of humiliation or abuse, whether one is the perpetrator or recipient, do come from a “dark place” in the sense that all of our violent, sadistic impulses come from the aggressive chimp side of our nature. That doesn’t mean it’s bad or wrong, just that we should be aware of it. Why do people like watch car crashes in auto races or a guy getting his face beat to a pulp in boxing? Why do people like violent movies? because, as humans, we like violence and danger and the idea of… Read more »
Well, it makes sense if you look at our psychology in simplistic terms, but in fact our brain is comprised of competing systems and motivations, and there isn’t any simple modus ponens explanation for our behavior. There are many reasons for rape fantasies, and not all of them have to do with violence. I’ve heard explanations ranging from being the object of desire, as you recount, to being able to have sex without agency (you can’t be slut-shamed if you’re taken by force). And then there are those of us who simply aren’t attracted to violence. Perhaps we were passed-over… Read more »
“It bugs me when men claim that even though they may like abusive porn sometimes, it doesn’t reflect any underlying hostility toward women. ” Which men? Are they watching the porn because of hostility to women, or are they watching it because that’s how they think being dominant is? Is it because they find aggression sexy in fantasy? It doesn’t mean they have to be hostile at all towards women as a whole, or even any woman, could simply be they want rough sex with a bit of pain, nipple clamps or whatever the F floats their boat. Although that… Read more »
Well, guys in comment threads like this one, or maybe not this one specifically, but in other discussions I’ve read. The authorof the article says that liking porn doesn’t mean he hates women and I agree with that. He doesn’t say what kind of porn he likes, just that non-degrading stuff is out there. I’ll take him at his word that he doesn’t get turned out by degradation or abuse. But, what about all the guys who DO like seeing porn where women are degraded or abused? I have read comments from guys (not here) who argue that liking that… Read more »
Sarah, I don’t think you have any support for your argument that what someone likes in their sexuality is caused by what they like outside of their sexuality. Instead, all you’ve presented is an argument from incredulity. I like pain, but it doesn’t turn me on at all. I know a woman who likes to be spanked during sex, but doesn’t consider it “violence” and is against violence in every aspect of her non-sexual life. You have simply asserted that because she likes this one form of violence, it is connected to some other deep-rooted like of violence, an assertion… Read more »
Sarah, they might simply want to dominate or abuse one woman, vs all women. Humans are strange, fantasies are even stranger, It may not actually be the abusing woman part that turns them on, but simply the abuse itself and that women are just who they are attracted to, if they were gay they’d maybe like abuse against men porn. But these are only guesses as I have no real idea why they would wanna look, it’s a huge turnoff to me, the closest I’d try is maybe let a partner tie me up, or tie a partner up (but… Read more »
I’m not saying it’s “bad” to like whatever you happen to like. But if a guy really gets turned on by watching abusive or degrading porn, well yeah I thank that comes from somewhere. I can’t say exactly where it comes from for any particular person, I’m not a mind reader. But it means SOMETHING – that’s all I’m saying. It’s not devoid of meaning psychologically. You can’t say that. Everything we do and feel has meaning and relevance to us in some way. But, does it mean someone is a bad person for being turned on by violence or… Read more »
Who said anything about “light?” And what makes one thing “violent” behavior and another thing “light erotic” behavior? But here is the problem I’m having with this exchange: you claim to know men’s motivations in general and my motivations in particular, such as when you wrote: You are throwing that example out there to undermine what I’m saying even though clearly that’s not what I’m talking about. Is that so? My intent was to undermine your point with something non-germaine? What makes you so certain? I’m not saying that there isn’t a reason for our desires – I’m saying that… Read more »
@Nick Pavlidis, look, you keep deliberately misconstruing what I’m saying. All I’m saying is that liking abusive porn has psychological relevance. I can’t say why any particular person likes it but I find it extremely relevant whereas you think it means nothing. I would argue that if a guy likes “abused teen” porn yet claims it means nothing to him, he lacks self awareness. What it means in particular I can’t say, except that I would probably suspect it was a sign of underlying issues although I don’t know what issues. Maybe he’s angry because the women he finds most… Read more »
I’m not arguing in bad faith not am I trying to misconstrue what you’re saying, deliberately or through carelessness. I’m reading what you’ve written and giving you my understanding of what you’ve written. That’s why I take pains to quote what you’ve written – to call attention to where you’ve written something and how I’ve interpreted it. So in that light, you’ve just written I can’t say why any particular person likes it but I find it extremely relevant whereas you think it means nothing. I would challenge you to find anything I’ve written where I’ve said it means nothing.… Read more »
Sarah said: It bugs me when men claim that even though they may like abusive porn sometimes, it doesn’t reflect any underlying hostility toward women. I just can’t believe that; if you think about it, it makes no psychological sense. But that doesn’t mean they are bad people or hate women all the time. That’s where I differ from Erin, I try to understand it as simply an aspect of human nature we all share. Women have violent fantasies for a variety of reasons (i.e. liking the feeling of being the object of someone else’s overwhelming lust, being excited by… Read more »
I want to thank Erin, Sarah, and all the others who are sharing their thoughts and feelings here. I commented early on to the article and have been reading the posts. This is the reason that Good Men Project is so important. Where else could we have a serious discussion about controversial topics that impact men, women, children, and all our relationships? I hope we all can appreciate the power of this kind of dialogue in the world. Men and women are different and pornography is one of the places where these differences come out. We haven’t even talked about… Read more »
I wish I understood the appeal of porn because it is so ubiquitous and I know the men in my life have probably watched 1,000’s of hours of it. And I don’t get it. I’ve tried to like it and it just doesn’t arouse me. At best it’s boring to me and a bit gross. (or very gross) At worst, it fills me with anxiety because I think, whoa, if this is what men want, I’m in trouble. I’m not hot enough, I’m not athletic enough, and frankly a lot of what is depicted in porn is not stuff I… Read more »
If it helps, in porn, I don’t know them and thus it takes a very hot woman to get me really turned on. I can be turned on to a wide variety of women but lets just say randomly average woman gives 50%, hot woman gives 60%. A real life woman gives me 2000%, a real life hot woman gives me 2500% turned on. I have also been turned on by things I wouldn’t wanna try in real life, so there is this fantasy vs reality aspect that muddies up the waters and I don’t think it’s a good idea… Read more »
And you will never understand it if you limit yourself to understanding only the things you personally enjoy, or by your insecurities, or by what you perceive to be the motives of others. If you really want to understand, and I think you do, then you have to rid yourself, at least momentarily, of the things that trap your understanding. I say the above with good intent Sarah. I find that the popularity of porn with straight men comes down to: good aid for masturbation, the continuous depiction of women who really desire fucking and sucking and the ability to… Read more »
The willingness to have sex is a major turn on. Those guys in the video appear to be desired a lot, and many men I would guess rarely feel desired, especially sexually. It often portrays the women as initiating the sex as well which is another turn on.
I would suggest that this (not ‘humiliation and abuse of women’) is the REAL major appeal of porn for the vast majority of men. Not that there are many women willing to listen to such a concept, or even ask the question, let alone consider its implications. After all, since when did men have feelings other than lust and hate, right?
But it’s not just about a woman willing to have sex Archy. Usually the woman is SO highly ravenous for sex she is displaying nymphomanic tendencies. She is completely insatible and dependent on the man for her sexual fulfillment. A fulfillment that is usually met by doing some very unrealistic and sometimes even realistically unpleasurable acts for her. POrn isn’t just about seeing willing women. If the humilation and abuse isn’t the REAL appeal for the majority of men, then why does it appear to exist in the vast majority of porn? And frankly, if you want to be angry… Read more »
“But it’s not just about a woman willing to have sex Archy. Usually the woman is SO highly ravenous for sex she is displaying nymphomanic tendencies. She is completely insatible and dependent on the man for her sexual fulfillment. A fulfillment that is usually met by doing some very unrealistic and sometimes even realistically unpleasurable acts for her. Porn isn’t just about seeing willing women. ” The fantasy would still be to be with a willing woman, just one who is VERY willing. Do women not get that aroused for their partners that they want to literally fuck his brains… Read more »
“The fantasy would still be to be with a willing woman, just one who is VERY willing. Do women not get that aroused for their partners that they want to literally fuck his brains out? If they don’t then maybe women don’t understand why it’s a fantasy, because I know full well what it feels like to be so turned on that I myself display nympho tendencies, I am insatiable, and dependent on her for sexual fulfillment. None of that is bad, why would it be? We depend on each other to sexually arouse and pleasure us, sharing that together… Read more »
“You know Archy, you’ve repeatedly attacked me for making generalities but you fail to take a look at the generalities you make. Me? I don’t think generalities are bad but you do yet apparently it’s okay for you to make them when it suits you. ” Where is the generalization in that? I’m asking a question in it, not making a generalized statement. Hence why I say IF and MAYBE, because I am ASKING, trying to find out if women share this same fantasy. “We clearly disagree. You think it’s great that women are depicted the way they are in… Read more »
“If the humilation and abuse isn’t the REAL appeal for the majority of men, then why does it appear to exist in the vast majority of porn?”
Sigh… once again: Because it DOESN’T. It exists in your personal view, your filter, your conscious decision of how you’re going to interpret all the porn you encounter. YOU see degradation and abuse everywhere you look, because you’ve decided that’s what porn must be ‘all about.’
Your personal interpretation is not matched by the interpretations of others, or by reality.
Of coures it exists Copyleft. We all know it does. Except there are a number of men here that are defensive about their own porn use and think that they look at porn that is wonderful and eglatarian, as they personally define it for themselves, that the other porn shouldn’t matter or even be discussed. A lot of the guys here are going on about how wonderful and fair porn is and how they only look at the most nicest stuff. They might say, “oh and yeah that porn exists but I don’t look at!” , then quickly go back… Read more »
Let me clarify: Some porn does indeed involve the humiliation and degradation of women. Some involves the humiliation and degradation of men, too, because for some men that’s a fantasy they enjoy. Your conclusion that “what men like is degradation and humiliation of women” is what’s wrong. Your followup conclusion that “that’s why porn is all about degrading women” is therefore wrong too. Really, the mistake you’re making–and continuing to make–is that you think you understand what “men” think and feel, when you clearly do not. You’ve decided that men fantasize about degrading and abusing women… and when men tell… Read more »
Copyleft: “Let me clarify: Some porn does indeed involve the humiliation and degradation of women. Some involves the humiliation and degradation of men, too, because for some men that’s a fantasy they enjoy.” This is what annoys me about this discussion. When it’s pointed out that a lot of porn humilates and degrades women, someone at some point is bound to come back and say that it happens to men too. This argument is used, I suspect, to deny the seriousness of pointing out how it happens to women. I don’t disagree that humilation and degradation happens to men too.… Read more »
“They might say, “oh and yeah that porn exists but I don’t look at!” , then quickly go back to talking about how wonderful porn is for them and for women. ” See this is why you’re causing men to be defensive, because you’re misinterpreting their position. They’re saying SOME PORN is egalitarian and good to women. Seriously Erin, what comments are you looking at saying all porn is egalitarian and wonderful?! You fail to understand this simple concept that the men are talking about SOME PORN, and you are generalizing ALL PORN. When Danny and I are saying you… Read more »
Regarding there being no effective sex education, they used to have these things called parents . . .
Tell us more… what were they like? (I’ve heard stories.) 8^)
Parents are those people that never got sex education themselves.
Parents are those things that received so little sex education themselves that when their own child started asking basic questions at a young age, the mom answered to the best of her ability . . . and then told her child “let’s go downtown to the Public Library and find some good books for your age because this is too important a thing for me to get it wrong.” (That was in the early 70’s. Google had not yet been born. I somehow had enough sense to to think it would be better to admit I didn’t have all the… Read more »
Those are patents that didn’t have parents themselves. Actual parents educate their children on life and interpersonal relationships, to include sex.
“Good sex is both your right and it’s within your reach-” Is this statement referring to being in certain rural Nevada counties, and having your Mastercard clear the cash register in a trailer park cat house? Because otherwise I don’t know how the author could make that statement. I think you could get an argument from a lot of people posting on, and running this site, that this doesn’t even apply to you if you are MARRIED. When you start talking about “rights” in terms of a service or physical object that everyone should morally have access to, health care… Read more »
I wouldn’t go so far as to say one has an inherent “right to good sex,” at least not as a kind of entitlement. I’d say every person has a basic right to try to build his or her best sex life, sort of a “pursuit of happiness” kind of deal. Within certain limits, of course. Like all rights, this right is bordered by everyone else’s rights. It’s a right as long as it is exercised consensually. No one is entitled to good sex, but everyone has the right to try. (And by ‘good sex,’ I mean sexual pleasure whether… Read more »
w, Very nice response to my post. I basically agree with everything you stated there, although I can’t say that I would rate any sexual pleasure that I’ve had without a partner as “good sex”, anymore than I would rate grabbing a McDonald’s double cheese burger at lunch because it was cheap, quick, and the only thing available as a “good meal”. But I guess that is life in all of it’s unfairness and inequality. Some of us get a cold bologna sandwich, and others get Chateau Briand.
Roger, firstly a tip of the trilby to you sir, it is rare that someone attacks this issue with the sharp arrow of reason. However, I don’t think you are giving today’s younger generation enough credit, every piece of media coming at today’s younger generation is sensationalized, and most learn to take it with a pinch of salt. Additionally, discussions about sex are far more liberal in the modern family, when sex was more taboo, people were more inclined to misunderstand the nature of sex. Now, with the rise of neo-feminism, I can sit around with girls and talk about… Read more »
How about people just have more sex between themselves then more people watching more sex of other people have sex lol? Wouldn’t that actually be better? Why such encouragement of people watching more sex when they could be having it?
I agree, I’d rather be having sex than watching it. Maybe make porn with my partner that we can both enjoy but I think I’d be too busy with her. What turns me on the most is a partner naked and seeing, hearing, n feeling her pleasure. Porn can’t hold a candle to that, it’s just something I personally use to make the nights a bit less lonely when I am single. My desire for porn drops away when I am into someone or seeing someone. But for some I guess it could be quite hot to watch porn together?… Read more »
Erin, If your avatar is a real picture of you, then you appear to be a very attractive person. You may be assuming, like many good looking people do, that everyone has access to a partner for some zesty physical activities. That is not the case. Imagine looks as money. Some folks out there could buy a brand new Porsche and drive it off the lot. They could also get a Honda, or even a Prius, or a used pick up truck. But other folks can’t even afford a 500 dollar hoopty mobile. Don’t assume that because someone is in… Read more »
J P, a tiny, half-inch picture of my face doesn’t do justice in telling my sotry. You are not the first person to make a comment about my “picture”, as if that should have any baring on my opinion. I don’t want to get into how wrong you are about me but don’t think you know a person’s experiences or a person just because you see a small segment of them in a tiny window. I understand that there are men out there that are lonely and don’t know how to relate to women. I understand why they turn to… Read more »
Erin, Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Those “resources” that are available that can help a man find a “real partner”. Run those by me. Do you mean the commercial services that try to find you a mate through the internet? I have a recent post on the GMP on that BS. On this site and in real life, every time I see the idea that maybe friends could try to hook a brother or sister up like in the old days, it gets played as “I don’t do that. Go to match.com or facebook.” Easy out, but technology is supposed… Read more »
I shouldn’t have to get rid of my picture to avoid assumptions about who I am or what life experiences I might have. Neither should anyone else that has included a picture of themselves. And lots of people at GMP have included a picture to put a face with their name. Not so people could use their picture as judgement about their experiences. People are always much more dimensional then that right? Why box yourself in by assuming you know someone by a picture? Sites like GMP is a good start. GMP seems to bring a level of conversation that… Read more »
“If men spent more time seeking out material, or writing material about how to have real relationships with women, the kind of relationships they may really want, and they spent less time looking at porn, these men that struggle in their relationships with women just might have more success.” Why do you assume they aren’t looking at both? I read material on how to find women, be attentiveness to their needs, how to make a decent boyfriend but it doesn’t exactly help when it’s hard to find a single woman here, let alone one I could date (as in a… Read more »
Archy, I’m glad you read other material to try to understand women. I just find that a lot of men don’t seek out that kind of information as nearly as much as they seek out sexual titillation. I see a lot of men that know what they like sexually but know very little about what they like about women and what characteristics they would like her to have to make a good partner for him. I feel a bit humbled that my comments have helped you. We always fight and disagree so that was a bit of a shock. I… Read more »
I look at porn to help get me off basically. I don’t really give it too much thought. I appreciate extremely that men n women do that stuff on camera as it helps a lot with masturbation, it does give me some ideas which I have looked up in sex guides to see if it’s legit and if it is I’d try, and by legit I mean actually does help both mine and her pleasure. “And while I recognize and understand these type of men have a hard time with women, there are tons of men out there that don’t… Read more »
How about men in relationships? I was just perusing a website with people in sexless marriages. For more than a few of them, porn takes the edge off, keeps the bitterness and resentment at bay. It allows them to stay married and raising the kids even though their spouse is no longer interested in them.
Perhaps those guys should avail themselves of the “leaving” option since the “talking” and “counseling” and “wait and see” and “do more chores” and “be more attentive” options all turned out to be duds.
I don’t really know the answer to that one Nick. Sexless marraiges are certainly an issue. There is probably alot going on in a relationship that is sexless that we wouldn’t be able to qaulify all the reasons. From a woman being tired and run down from the day to day chores and probably not feeling very sexy at the end of the day to perhaps women that don’t even want to have sex wit htheir husbands for other reasons. Of course, there are men too that opt out of having sex wit htheir partners too. This isn’t just something… Read more »
Well if you come up with any good ideas please do share, because there are millions of people out there who are struggling with just that problem. For them marriage doesn’t provide access to monogamous sex, loving or otherwise, it provides them with access to celibacy.
I already said I don’t have all the answers Nick. What good ideas are you looking for me to come up with? Regardless of what intimacy problems a couple maybe having, this still doesn’t do much to address the content of porn and what men are attracted to. Of coures people turn to porn for all kinds of reasons, but no matter what those reasons are, this doesn’t change the underlying base of what most porn is made up of.
No one has any good answers. I certainly don’t pretend to. That’s why I’m not going to pass judgement on those people in such relationships who turn to porn, anymore than I am going to judge those people who aren’t in relationships who turn to porn. I don’t have a better answer for them.
What I will advise those people, however, is to choose their porn ethically.
It’s not a matter of passing judgement Nick. It’s not a matter of saying, “you’re a bad person because you look at porn!”. No one here has said that. It’s about understanding why so much porn exists that is infact abusive toward women. It’s about understanding what is going on with men that so many men turn to porn to begin with. Sometimes over spending time doing other thigns or even getting to know how to really relate to a real woman. It’s about understanding how sexuality has changed because of all the porn that is now available. This is… Read more »
If you want to look at the big picture then please look at the big picture (keep in mind though that my “passing judgement” comment was about this subset of porn viewers, those who are in sexless relationships or are unable to find relationships). Why would someone choose porn over sex with a real live woman? Why is porn so prevalent today? Why do we even look at porn? I find it useful to note that other great apes look at porn as well; they are particularly drawn to pictures of “high status” apes. There’s also the question of the… Read more »
I know that there are many people that have sexless relationships and are unable to find relationships. I also know that a lot of men with loving partners also still look at porn too. I don’t think it’s fair to disqualify those examples in favor of presenting an image that men only look at porn because they are forced to through lack of attention/touch. Nick: “Why would someone choose porn over sex with a real live woman? Why is porn so prevalent today? Why do we even look at porn?” I would like to know the answer to all of these. Nick:… Read more »
I think what I see here in general are people that want to ignore the treatment of women in favor of acting like porn is all positive and light. I see a disproportionate amount of ignoring the bad in favor of promoting what you specifically have catagorized as “good”. Whatever “good” means. I take great pains to use quotes and links to back up my assertions, and if I claim someone is acting a certain way I am damned well going to provide the quotes to prove it. So I’d like to see the quotes please. Who is ignoring the… Read more »
“Why would someone choose porn over sex with a real live woman?” Addiction, or they are scared of women, or feel they aren’t worth of a woman, take your pick. I think you may underestimate how hard it can be to get a partner, especially for unattractive people or those with issues. In a relationship it can be because: They don’t want to disturb their sleeping partner for sex, they have a sexless marriage/relationship, they’re addicted, the love was lost between them. For me I don’t choose to do it, I just find it hard to socialize, find it very… Read more »
“how does a man’s lack of relationships jutisfy using a meduim that is more times then not, pretty dreadful to women?”
Citation needed AGAIN. Seriously–how many times does it need to be pointed out that this notion of ALL porn (or even the vast maority of it) revolving around the humiliation and degradation of women is wrong, wrong, wrong???
This is YOUR personal interpretation of porn, Erin; it’s not reality, and you’re rejecting the comments of everyone who tries to point out your mistake. To use 60s lingo, this is a “hangup” of yours.
Copyleft, I am fully aware that porn will bother me on a level it won’t bother men. Men get pleasure from porn. Porn caters to mainly male desires and fantasy. There is rarely anything in porn that is offensive to men because it is trying to cater to men. But no, the “hangup” isn’t mine. The reality is that a huge amount of porn exists that is demeaning to women. Now I know all the guys on this board only watch the most softeness, wonderful, egalitarian product out there where all the women are treated with nothing respect because they… Read more »
“Men have other options, if they really want them.” You know Erin even when I disagree with you I feel there is still some mutual understanding going on. This remark makes me wonder just how much understanding you have. That entire comment is screaming, “The only reason men are this way is because they are not trying hard enough or they are doing the wrong things..” I thought you were trying to have a conversation with guys who watch porn for understanding but your comments seem to be slowly turning from that into a desire to only hear from guys… Read more »
I agree, burying the head in the sand because MANY guys are commenting and saying their experience is quite different to the one she is trying to tell us actually exists. It’s the classic womansplaining, trying to tell us our own experience as if we do not know it. It’s annoying. I can understand if she was asking if that is our experience, but she’s actually telling us what we think, what we like, what we do. I haven’t seen someone misunderstand men SO BADLY in a very very long time, even with men telling her their experience. What is… Read more »
Perhaps you should consider how your comments could also apply from my vantage point as well Danny. I think we BOTH feel that the other one isn’t really listening. But I don’t deserve to be personally attacked for it.
Oh I can agree that you don’t deserve to be personally attacked for it which is why I’m not personally attacking you for it.
“This remark makes me wonder just how much understanding you have.”
Sounds like a personal attack to me Danny.
No more personal that the times you’ve told me that I’m not listening to you or telling me that I don’t care what you say because you aren’t agreeing with me.
Porn its just fiction, nothing more, nothing less. Yes to much of it can be unhealthy and addictive, but almost everything is. Internet is also addictive, so is TV, so is youtube, so are games, drinking, gambling, reading, sex, food, smoking ect. To much of everything is unhealthy. There are good porn and bad porn outhere, just like there are good and bad movies, good and bad books, good and bad food, good and bad sex, good and bad music ect. The trick lays in finding what you like, not following the masses. Some may like Bono, some go crazy… Read more »
As a person most would describe as a “porn director”, I cannot begin to describe how refreshing it is to read a well written and objective article such as this. Thanks, Roger. I would however beg to differ that porn is only “big, fast, athletic sex”. Whilst no one would argue that the vast majority of it is, it’s a generalisation akin to describing mainstream movies as “American crap with no plot and bad dialogue”. Having worked with a number of married and/or engaged couples, I believe it’s also possible to capture moments of genuine intimacy on screen, despite the… Read more »
Well if people want to talk about the how and why behind why men watch a lot of porn let’s do so. Front and center a lot of men do it because the closest approximation to real intimacy they are getting in their lives. Now ideally this real intimacy would go beyond the physical (or at least the genital stimulation until climax portion of physical intimacy) but it often doesn’t because when you’re watching a video late at night there isn’t much that can be done for the empty space next to you after you’re finished. Does porn rewire its… Read more »
Good sex is both your right and it’s within your reach
Well, not everybody has the same reach…
Front and center a lot of men do it because the closest approximation to real intimacy they are getting in their lives.
AMEN, brother. It’s no coincidence that every possible avenue of sexual pleasure for men is so closely scrutinized and routinely condemned by our puritanical society–often with the open agreement and collaboration of some feminists!
Copyleft, why does a woman have to be “some feminist” if she doesn’t like porn? Can’t someone not like porn and have ideas independent from feminism or “puritanical society”? If you ask me, while we have routes in a puritanical society, our society seems increasing hedonistic more than anything else. Everyone is told “if it feels good, do it!”, “if if feels good, nothing is wrong with it”, “if it feels good, don’t let someone else shame you if you like it!”. That’s more of the cultural messages we receive now then anything purtaining to the puritanical. Of coures, women… Read more »
“Men do love sluts though because men love calling women sluts in porn.” I watch porn muted, and hate any negative talk. The women I watch are not sluts in my eyes, they’re women having sex. I think anyone that thinks of them as a slut needs a solid metaphorical kick in the ass n needs to respect them. I hate people especially who will enjoy watching these women perform but don’t respect them, they’re doing you a favour, you should be fucking thankful you get to see something amazing and respect them. You don’t have to agree with their… Read more »
“But no man really respect a slut.”
Again with the mind-reading. Erin, you really need to get over this notion that you already know how men and think and feel about everything… especially when actual, living, breathing men are telling you differently!
Danny, most men begin looking at porn at pretty young ages. Not when they are 20+ and lonely because they aren’t in a relationship. Neither is porn something only lonely men watch. Plenty of men in relationships still look at porn. I DO understand why men look at porn. I don’t think men are “bad people” or hate women because they look. But I think the issues is a lot more complicated then men only turning to porn because they are lonely. And I think that while men don’t hate women just because they look at porn, there is still… Read more »
Do you think the men are turned on by the meanness, or that the meanness is there but the men are focused solely on the sex most of the time? There is one aspect I could see where maybe quite a lot of men want to feel in control, dominant, where she does what he wants BUT she WANTS to do it, she actually feels good about it. I’ve known a few women like that in life where they want a dominant partner, it turns them on to be told what to do in the bedroom, they get off from… Read more »
Yes, I think there are men that are turned on by the meanness. I think these men can be regular men out and about in the real world. Men that have loving wives/gfs or families even. Men that are nice and kind but enjoy seeing women treated a certain way behind closed doors. What people want to do in the privacy of their own bedroom is their business Archy. But the difference that comes in for me is a very public medium like porn and how it protrays male and female sexuality. I see nothing wrong with you wanting to… Read more »
Have you read B.F. Skinner’s utopian novel Walden Two? One of the interesting ideas he presents in that novel is sexual “play” between adolescents. I think you’re drawing the wrong conclusion in the question of “puritanical” vs “hedonistic.” First, let’s be clear, hedonism isn’t promoted by society. We may call the relatively liberal sexual license “hedonism,” but it’s not the same thing. And a Nike slogan does not a cultural attitude make. Instead, look at the battle over sex education. Look at the fights about public nudity. It’s not a question of one winning out over the other; we’re constantly… Read more »
Danny, most men begin looking at porn at pretty young ages. Not when they are 20+ and lonely because they aren’t in a relationship. None of which has anything to do with why guys would go to porn once they reach their 20s and are lonely. Please don’t think that just because a guy is lonely and watching porn as a replacement for (physical intimacy) doesn’t mean that he just discovered it after he got that old and felt lonely. That’s like saying that since a person committed suicide with a gun in their 20s it indicates that he/she didn’t… Read more »
You said: “None of which has anything to do with why guys would go to porn once they reach their 20s and are lonely. Please don’t think that just because a guy is lonely and watching porn as a replacement for (physical intimacy) doesn’t mean that he just discovered it after he got that old and felt lonely.” I know! That’s what I am saying. Men aren’t only looking at porn because they reached a certain age and are lonlely. Most men start a relationship with porn very early in their young lives. You said : “Really? So as a… Read more »
Are you kidding me? No I’m not. I never been lonely or wanted man companionship? Not the same as being a lonely man, which is what I said. Give me a break. I never experienced rejection either right? Sure I’ll give you the break but I never said you have never experienced rejection. Or if I have experienced rejection is was much less than the rejection you experienced too right? No just different. Have you ever been in the position of being a lonely woman Danny? No. But from the things that have been said in these posts (not just… Read more »
You said: “Not the same as being a lonely man, which is what I said.”
Help me understand then. Is being a lonely man more painful?
You said: “No just different.”
How so?
No being a lonely man isn’t more painful than being a lonely woman. It’s different from being a lonely woman. (I don’t think that can even be measured and even if it could it would be pointless to do so, just as pointless as the general “do men or women have it worse” arguing when it comes to overall gender oppression.) Now as for how so here is what I’m thinking. Even if we just limit the loneliness to sexual fulfillment look at the way that men and women are treated differently when it comes to sex. Men are “allowed”… Read more »
Roger, if porn isn’t fundamentally disrespectful toward women, why would you have to “keep searching until you find something ethical”? Why is it so hard to find porn that actually doesn’t disrespect women? Why do so many of the titles call women disrespectful names or categorize women specifically in ways that it doesn’t categorize men? Why does so much of the material show men jack-hammering women like they are nothing but a walking orifice? If porn isn’t fundamentally disrespectful to women, then how are we defining what is disrespectful to women? That is the real question I would like to… Read more »
So Erin, then I presume you’re against all forms of chic lit porn that lights up women’s dopamine centers (in precisely the similar way that men’s do with visual porn) which portray men as being unrealistic as well? You on a crusade there too? Something tells men no. And ALL things “re-wire” the brain — having sex with different people “re-wires” the brain as well (particularly against monogamy, which is more pronounced in women) — any qualms about telling men and, yes, women, that they shouldn’t be doing that either? Something once again tells me no. Clever spiel, but ultimately… Read more »
Guess what A? I understand your concerns about “chic lit porn”. Believe me, I am no fan of 50 Shades of Grey. I think it’s foolish to be honest. I have seen “news” reports on TV about the popularity of the book where couples were interviewed and the woman gushed over the insipid book and the insipid character “Christen Grey”. I thought the entire thing extremely foolish. I felt sorry for the guys sitting next to their female partner that gushed over some one-dimensional lame character in Christian Grey. Don’t assume that all women like “chic lit porn”. Don’t assume… Read more »
Quit watching bad porn then. If you can’t find the mass of decent porn out there then seriously, wtf are your searching for? Why is it so easy for me to find lots of videos that don’t degrade women? The closest is the bad titles on some but part of that is a stupid version of dirty talk I ignore. There are plenty that are simply “Hot woman masturbates” “sexy couple fucks” etc that are good. “Can we stop with the pc talk and talk about the subject and call porn for what it is? ” We are, countless people… Read more »
Erin, you are inadvertently making my earlier point for me–you’re assuming that YOUR personal interpretation of porn is the correct one. You’re saying that YOU understand what the appeal of porn is for men, even as real-life, honest-to-goodness actual Y-chromosome men are you telling you otherwise.
Do you think we’re all lying? or do you think there can be more than one way to look at this issue?
I think men love porn because porn doesn’t treat men the same way it treats women. You simply don’t see men put down to nearly the degree you see women put down. You simply don’t see men forced to do positions or acts that hurt them physically or make them have painfilled faces as much as you do with women in porn. You don’t see men called the level and amount of degrading names that get thrown at women regularly. Yes, porn very well may exsist that does just that to me. But it is not the majority and I… Read more »
There is a reason men that look like Ron Jeremey can have successful careers in porn and a reason you have to look like Jenna Jaminson to have a successful career in porn. Erin, before the viagra era, Ron was one of the few men that; 1. had a nine inch plus penis [from memory, about one in a thousand men have a penis that long]. a longer penis make penetration easier to film 2. and more importantly he could get erect on command, and infront of a film crew[most men can not do either]. A porn actor who can… Read more »
James, come on now, do you really believe those are the only reasons Ron because so successful vs someone like Jenna? I don’t think it’s any big secret that standards for women in porn are a big harder then standards for men. Do you really think they put a man like Ron in porn because they thought he would draw women in with his huge penis? I think they did it because he appeals to guys that aren’t that good looking themselves and they can watch this guy sleep with young hot babes. How many women in porn do you… Read more »
Erin, are you really ignoring that Ron Jeremy is an outlier in the type of men usually cast in mainstream porn flicks? Sure, he can be the “everyman” hero but by and large most of the male porn actors I’ve seen on the covers of videos have been tattooed, muscle-bound guys. (nb: I’ve never seen a porn film starring Jeremy, so I’m going solely by other’s descriptions of him and the cameos he’s done in mainstream films.) I’ve recently read two interviews with male porn stars that appear to be outside of the mold in a different way. James Deen… Read more »
Actually, Archy and Erin, the trope of an conventionally unattractive man getting with the ‘hot chick’ seems much more common in mainstream media than in porn, so it’s not porn’s fault. Any commercial targeted towards men, coming of age movies, many animes, comedies, etc. It’s sweet, Archy, that you talk about all sorts of people finding love together. But you said that you’re only attracted to 5% of women (as you’ve stated), and your description of them is pretty conventional (young, thin, petite, small breasts). And before you say small breasts are not conventional, take a look at the hottest… Read more »
When did I say I was only attracted to 5% of women???? It sounds like you haven’t got a fucking clue what I am saying, but hey, it appears none of the women here really do listen to anything I say but simply make judgments about what I say without bothering to read. I am MOST attracted to women my age + or – 5-10 years, petite bodies and smaller breasts, I am still attracted quite a lot to women who aren’t petite or have larger breasts, the petite women are simply my 10 and others are a 9 on… Read more »
I’ve said I’m not really attracted to the majority of pro porn stars, did you mean that? I don’t find the over-tanned skin (as in not a natural tan like some people have) or fake breasts really appealing. Looks get my initial attention, personality is what wins me over the most, I have quite a few beautiful female friends that I am not really attracted to like I am with a crush for instance, looks alone doesn’t make me get butterflies in my stomach, think of them a lot, etc.
Aya, I am not saying it’s porn’s fault. I think it’s common in both industries. I think that mainstream media certainlly appeals to the desire for the average/below average looking guy getting the beauty queen as much as porn does. But I don’t think that it exists in porn only because of mainstream media. I think it exists because a lot of entertainment and CEOs that make those choices, on both a mainstream scale and adult industry scale, are largely men that want to largely appeal to other men. Men want to believe someone like Ron can sleep with young… Read more »
I think it’s common in both industries. I think that mainstream media certainlly appeals to the desire for the average/below average looking guy getting the beauty queen as much as porn does. I think you must not come into contact with a lot of porn. The guys in most porn videos are far from your average schlub – they represent an ideal that men can’t even reach with surgery: very muscular with abnormally large cocks. That’s why we notice people like James Deen, he doesn’t fit the gym rat mold – although I presume him to have a large cock,… Read more »
Like I asked before, several times, and each time it’s been thus ignored by the guys here as far as I can tell so far, why is there no woman in porn, that has reached the level of fame Ron J. has that is equal to his looks? Even if she had really big breasts? We disagree about what kind of men dominate the industry phyiscally. I also have no idea what you meant by “they represent an ideal that men can’t even reach with surgery”…men in porn don’t have to live up to the standards pf physical attractiveness that… Read more »
We disagree about what kind of men dominate the industry phyiscally. I also have no idea what you meant by “they represent an ideal that men can’t even reach with surgery” When I stumble across commercial porn, the male actors are almost exclusively: 1) Ripped 2) Generously endowed As far as I know, there is no surgery that can give a man a ripped physique or add three inches to his penis. So the prevalent image of men in porn is an unattainable ideal. It appears that for women what’s necessary is being skinny and perhaps dropping $7-10k on implants… Read more »
Ron Jeremy was quite a hunk when he started out, I dunno why you think he is so ugly. Jenna Jamison is the closest that I can think of, but surgery to enhance her attributes exists, surgery for men is quite limited. He has a penis that very very very very very few men have, men in porn are just as limited as women are in pro porn. For the pro industry men usually have to be ripped, which already limits to what, 5-10% of population, and then also have a NATURALLY large penis. “Ray Romano is not a bad… Read more »
We completely disagree about the kind of men that crop up in porn. I am not saying that there are no “ripped” men in porn. I am saying that porn does not put the same level of credentials on men that it does women. Lets look at this logically: – Porn is made *mostly* for men – Most porn focuses on the female’s body and looks – Porn is hugely adapted to fit male fantasy first, it doesn’t leave a lot of room open to female fantasy. I don’t know a lot of people that largely disagree with me on… Read more »
You do realize when the men are talking about egalitarian porn here they’re talking pretty much about amateur made content, or a few new studios? No one is disagreeing the a lot of PRO industry porn is bad, but that isn’t all porn is. Infact I’d bet the majority of porn being produced today is sexting, but more then 90% of that isn’t being shared online. It’s still porn, and that’s often quite egalitarian in nature, just 2 lovers turning each other on. This is what you don’t seem to grasp Erin, pro porn is largely negative, I agree, but… Read more »
Nick, how much of an “outlier” could Ron Jeremy be? He is a household name. I know kids who know who he is. He has wide appeal and is very well known both inside and outside the industry. Again, tell me of a female porn actress that has reached his level of fame that looks anything close to what Ron Jeremy looks like, who got by just because she had fantasitcally big *real* breasts? There isn’t such a woman that exists! Because standards for the way women look are higher then standards for the way men look. To the extent… Read more »
Nick, how much of an “outlier” could Ron Jeremy be? He is a household name. I know kids who know who he is. He has wide appeal and is very well known both inside and outside the industry. By outlier I mean he is not a representative sample of the men in porn. You don’t see a lot of short, fat guys in porn videos; there’s Ron Jeremy and then there’s, well, I can think of anyone else. And frankly, I am so sick of hearing guys say “well I don’t expect a real woman to look like that.” No,… Read more »
You said: “By outlier I mean he is not a representative sample of the men in porn. You don’t see a lot of short, fat guys in porn videos; there’s Ron Jeremy and then there’s, well, I can think of anyone else.” I am sorry but I hugely disagree that you don’t infact see short, fat, old guys all the time in porn usually having sex with beautiful young women. There is a lot more yielding to men in porn then there is women. Why one may ask? Because people who make porn make it mostely for men. And men… Read more »
“You are suppose to ignore the ideals that men are seeking or how some days he wants big breasts and the other days he wants little breats and that’s suppose to be a positive that he is treating women like a buffet of treats.” You’re supposed to look at the same body type, same person every single day for your life, you heard it guys. Never watch a single bit of entertainment that is new, and girls, don’t look at porn, don’t look at romance because your partner may get upset. As a woman, you’re not supposed to do anything.… Read more »
Again, even “if” Ron J. Isn’t typical, is there any woman that has reached his level of popularity that looks like the female version of him? Aside from fetish porn (e.g. BBW and other genres) I would agree, there is no female version of Ron Jeremy. But Ron Jeremy seems to be unique. I did your Google test, and aside from Mr. Jeremy himself I didn’t see a short fat guy among the bunch. Excepting James Deen, all of the guys were fairly muscular, just as I recalled seeing on the video covers (back when there were still stores that… Read more »
We have very different perceptions of pornography. There is much more variety in weight and ages among men in porn then there are in women. Men do not have to align to standards of youth or beauty to be in porn. You said: “The latter is not unique to women. I would say the only two things that matter about men in porn are their race and cock size. If you’re black, you’re supposed to have an abnormally large cock to fulfill the little white girl’s Mandingo fantasy. Yet another reason why I find commercial porn nauseating.” It’s interesting to… Read more »
It’s interesting to me that you choose to use the words, “little white girl”. Because that is usually part of the trope. Young white naîf encounters monster black cock, her doe eyes wide with fear. We’re supposed to believe she’s 18 and it’s her first time. Although there is another trope, which is the cuckhold whose wife is being serviced by a big black cock while he watches. The rest of your post doesn’t appear to need a response. You don’t seem to be able to acknowledge where I agree with you, and rather than respond to my few points… Read more »
“We have very different perceptions of pornography. There is much more variety in weight and ages among men in porn then there are in women. Men do not have to align to standards of youth or beauty to be in porn.” That’s because you aren’t looking at enough porn. Do you mean they have to stick to an ideal to become very popular? Because you can be anythign and be in porn. Pickup a camera, film your sex, upload it. Tada, you’re bodytype is now in porn. By variety do you mean the % distribution of bodytypes? I see all… Read more »
Nick, how much of an “outlier” could Ron Jeremy be? He is a household name. I know kids who know who he is. He was rated one of the top 50 pornstars of all time apparently by the industry itself. It’s said that he’s made around 1,750 porn films. Again, tell me of a female porn actress that has reached his level of fame that looks anything close to what Ron Jeremy looks like. Other men have implied that the reason Ron Jeremey exists in the porn world is because of his big penis. But aren’t there women that look… Read more »
“Almost every guy here that is reading this I am sure knows what I am talking about.”
No. I am sure that you think these men think this way but you’re absolutely terrible at understanding the male brain, so seriously, stop trying, start ASKING US MEN what we think and stop TELLING us what we think. The level of womansplaining you do is incredible!
I find you to be perptually condecending toward me Archy. “womensplaing”? That is a really condecending term. I am voicing my opinion, just as you are voicing yours. The fact that I am a woman doesn’t mean I am not intelligent enough to formulate an opinion on this topic based on information I have collected. I am sure there are some things I don’t understand being that I am infact a woman, and not a man. but then again, wouldn’t that be true foroyu as well in your approach to porn? Wouldn’t there also be things you don’t understand as… Read more »
Standards for the way women look are higher then standards for the way men look. To the extent that women get plastic surgery to be more of the fantasy than men will ever do to achieve the same. Women aren’t generally impressed with fake body parts. For some reason, men are. What fake body parts are available to men? Don’t believe the spam messages you get; there is no product or pill or surgery that’s going to increase the length and girth of a guy’s cock. A guy can put in some time at the gym (maybe with the aid… Read more »
You said: “What fake body parts are available to men? Don’t believe the spam messages you get; there is no product or pill or surgery that’s going to increase the length and girth of a guy’s cock. A guy can put in some time at the gym (maybe with the aid of some anabolic steroids perhaps) to get the porn physique, but there’s no amount of money that will buy him 3 more inches.” Men CAN get penile implants if they really wanted to. Along with cheek, shoulder, pec, calf, butt implants too. They can have nose jobs, reshape their… Read more »
“Men like the idea that some old, fat gross dude can sleep with young beautiful women. ” My my, aren’t you a ray of sunshine. And to think of all the bitching you’ve done about how women get objectified, degraded, etc, and now you’re doing it to Ron Jeremy? Dafuq? Why are you judging his looks? Do you think the men watching porn care all that much about the looks of the actor? The only time I ever did was watching amateur porn and realizing that even fat guys get laid too, with a variety of women, that fat n… Read more »
You said: “My my, aren’t you a ray of sunshine.” That made me laugh out loud. You said: “ And to think of all the bitching you’ve done about how women get objectified, degraded, etc, and now you’re doing it to Ron Jeremy?” I see..so I just “bitch”? I’m sorry you look down on my opinion and comments so much that they are just “bitching” to you. You said: “Do you think the men watching porn care all that much about the looks of the actor?” I don’t. That’s why the men can look certain ways that women can’t. That’s… Read more »
Bitching probably isn’t the right word, I forgot it can also mean complaints that aren’t legitimate. To me it simply means kicking up a stink, but still valid. I forgot the better word for it, making aware of an issue? I don’t actually look down on the comments, though my use of bitching probably sounds otherwise. “Ron has mad nearly 1,750 porn movies. Maybe the Ron’s are rare, but a female Ron Jeremy is nonexistent.” Only one close I know of is Jenna, but didn’t she quit? Most pro porn I see has women between 18 to about 40, infact… Read more »
Do you really think they put a man like Ron in porn because they thought he would draw women in with his huge penis? No Ron got into porn because his penis fits the idea that a man has to be really hung into be considered sexually attractive to women. Now this should not be confused with the idea that his huge penis would attract women to be in porno flicks with him exactly. In most porn guys are usually relegated to being just faceless cocks that are there to bang. Because seriously in most porn flicks it’s pretty rare… Read more »
You said: “No Ron got into porn because his penis fits the idea that a man has to be really hung into be considered sexually attractive to women.” But below you agree that porn is made largely for men Danny, not for women. If you believe that, this above doesn’t make much sense. You said: “In most porn guys are usually relegated to being just faceless cocks that are there to bang. Because seriously in most porn flicks it’s pretty rare that you even get the guy’s name in the credits.” That’s because guys, who porn movies are mostly made… Read more »
we are actually saying a lot of the same things. although I get the impression you think these are positive things while I don’t.
But below you agree that porn is made largely for men Danny, not for women. If you believe that, this above doesn’t make much sense. Well as I said it’s an “idea” that women want large penises. Yes there are plenty of women that say that is not the case but at the same time the idea gets reinforced by women (not too different from having men who don’t embrace the ill treatment of women in some porn while there are other men who do embrace the ill treatment of women in some porn). That’s because guys, who porn movies… Read more »
You said: “Well as I said it’s an “idea” that women want large penises. Yes there are plenty of women that say that is not the case but at the same time the idea gets reinforced by women (not too different from having men who don’t embrace the ill treatment of women in some porn while there are other men who do embrace the ill treatment of women in some porn).” I am sorry but a woman who says she perfers a big penis is the same as a man that says he likes big breasts. It is not the… Read more »
“I don’t think I have demonized men at all. I never said men that watch porn are bad or anything like that! And I think this comment directed toward me is very unfair.” You’ve demonized men and porn a lot in your comments, why do you think I’ve been calling you out for it? Take notice when multiple men are saying you’re demonizing. Remember the part on why men don’t open up to women about porn? Because of experiences like this. You’ve actually stated what men think, don’t you see how your comments can be seen as demonizing? Maybe you’ve… Read more »
And it’s women’s fault if there are a lot of big penises in the adult flims??? I didn’t say it was there fault but if you want to talk about what has influence then yes I would say that women are adding to that influence. If you want to call that “fault” that’s up to you. I understand that. I do. I understand there are a lot of lonely men out there that use porn as some kind of “comfort”. But I also think that is still taking the easy way out. So watching porn as a comfort after striking… Read more »
I simply don’t see this discussion going anywhere. Both of you think I am not listening to you and I am not left with the impression you are listening to me either. You both appear to be very sensitive to the idea of deominizing men yet you don’t seem to offer that same sensitivity in reponse to how women are demonized in porn as well or your personal demonizations of me. Women are suppose to be understanding and all smiles that men just seem to need porn no matter what the porn is doing to depict female bodies or sexuality.… Read more »
“I think men love porn because porn doesn’t treat men the same way it treats women. You simply don’t see men put down to nearly the degree you see women put down. You simply don’t see men forced to do positions or acts that hurt them physically or make them have painfilled faces as much as you do with women in porn. You don’t see men called the level and amount of degrading names that get thrown at women regularly. Yes, porn very well may exsist that does just that to me. But it is not the majority and I… Read more »
Actually you’re quite clearly womansplaining about men’s experiences, desires, porn usage, etc. If that helps clear up why it’s so annoying.
You said: “Do you just look for the most extreme porn n compare it to everything? The shit you talk about, I haven’t seen much, if any for years. Yet I as a man watching porn view women as lesser in your eyes, I degrade them, I want to dominate them n treat them like shit apparently. Get a clue Erin, the message YOU are sending to men that look at porn is that we’re beasts who don’t care about women…” Not at all. All I have to do is “google” the word “porn” and click on the very first… Read more »
“But it doesn’t, does it. Porn does not have anything egalitarian about it right?” Depends what you watch! Some is egal, some isn’t. Overall? Probably male focused with a shifting trend towards egalitarian. “Not at all. All I have to do is “google” the word “porn” and click on the very first link and see degrading porn. ” Define degrading in this case. First link I found was pornhub, looks mostly pro porn. Lot’s of 3some’s on the front page, the descriptions of the videos I find degrading for some. I wouldn’t say all is degrading, the majority doesn’t appear… Read more »
So… If men viewing porn aren’t being stimulated by all the alleged “objectification and degredation” (which apparently only you and a few other select women can see), then the men aren’t doing anything wrong, are they? YOU”RE the one who should stop looking at porn if all you see is degradation and abuse in it.
Your interpretations and reactions = not our problem, or anyone else’s.
I can’t help but think of the feminist porn awards, hosted by Goodforher.com, which mostly sells vibrators. Most of the things getting awards goes to material that is at least somewhat gender-bending, but one of them went to a little site called “Art of the Blowjob” which features a busty red head sucking off a guy. Yes, I know, but if watch a video and compare it to a typical porn video there is a huge difference, and it’s not the penis (which is actually kinda small). This is what a blowjob looks like when the people involved actually love… Read more »
Yeah there are some fucked up titles n productions.
The art of the blowjob looks interesting, a lot of the amateur content I see is couple-produced and is from that perspective which is why it’s so appealing to me. Real girlfriends/wives and boyfriends/husbands turning each other on, both caring about the others pleasure, it’s as close as I can feel to being in a relationship whilst single and that is the major appeal of it. Not all of us desire “abused teens”.
My question is, why does porn infact have problems with misogyny? And why do people want to ignore that because a few low-key videos that might showing a “loving couple”. Why are so many people drawn more to the misogyny then the loving stuff? This is why I think there is a dark underbelly people don’t want to touch on yet. Maybe when porn use gets so out of control , which I personally think as already happened, maybe people will start to want to go where they try not to. But there is a reason so much hate for… Read more »
I am still waiting for someone to answer and directly respond to my original post. I thought it was a good one. I want to know to Roger, if porn doesn’t degrade women, then what does? And if porn doesn’t degrade women, then clearly shows, commericials and sitcoms about men that are idiot fathers and the likes of that surely aren’t degrading men either right?
Erin, You seem to be suggesting that the mere existence of porn degrades women. I have been to several museums and civil war battle sites that had real Confederate battle flags on display. Are they degrading to African American people by being in that display case? No one is forced to go there to look at them. I think porn is the same thing. If some guy is forwarding some nasty stuff to your computer without your consent, or an intimate friend is trying to get you to watch things you don’t want to watch, THEY might be trying to… Read more »
Erin, the positions, treatment, camera angles etc that women do in het porn. Men do in gay porn[not just feminine bottoms, but masculine bottoms too], does that mean that gay porn degrades men?
I don’t see why it wouldn’t degrade men too James.
Erin, you are courageous to take this on in the internet porn-soaked world that we live in. Porn is degrading to women because the female arousal and orgasms are always faked. I have yet to see a porn scene in which a woman had the engorged labia/vulva that would indicate real arousal. I know what that looks like because I’ve seen my own. The faking that female porn actors display is what real live men now expect in the bedroom. Show me a porn video that focuses solely on female arousal. It will never happen because it would be pretty… Read more »
I’m not going to flame you, I just feel really sorry for you. But in case you haven’t become too embittered, perhaps I can shine a ray of hope. 1) I’ve seen porn videos with real female orgasms, but that’s probably because I don’t care for the fake stuff. They are out there, but you’re not likely to find one from one of the commercial studios. 2) Do you really want to see a video that focuses solely on female arousal? Okay, you did ask for it: uncommonappetites.blogspot.com/2011/06/introducing-violet.html 3) 50% of the videos? Why not just go to 100% of… Read more »
“I know what that looks like because I’ve seen my own. ” Because your vulva is the same as everyone elses right? “Porn is degrading to women because the female arousal and orgasms are always faked.” Watch amateur porn of real women having real orgasms then? Look up Abby Winters, I believe that studio has a lot of real orgasms. “For the record, I used to be a very pro-porn “sex positive” married woman. Unfortunately, my porn loving (now ex-) husband could not differentiate between the real and the fake. Now I’m porn-free and if I can’t find a man… Read more »
By that logic, war movies are degrading to military veterans because all the injuries, suffering, and death are faked. Got anything better?
Do you masturbate to military war veteran movies that are suffering from injuries and suffering Copyleft?
I think almost everyone can agree that the goal of protraying a military veteran and the goal of a porn movie are two different things.
So, you agree that the complaint “porn is not an accurate portrayal of real life” is meaningless noise? Good; I agree.
I can’t really agree with anything you just said Copyleft, because I don’t undrestand it. Please don’t feed words into my mouth.
Kate, that is actually an increasing problem for people. From my own experiences, I have experienced how porn has shaped male sexuality. And from my experiences, it’s made a lot of men more selfish and less intuned with themselves much less with women. It’s strange because I am 31 and I grew up not having the internet around all the time. When I was in high school, it just started to come about and it was AOL dial-up. But in a very short and fast 10 years, I have seen how the conversations surrounding porn have changed and how it’s… Read more »
SOME porn degrades women, SOME porn degrades men, a lot doesn’t. It depends a lot on what you watch! Tell me what is degrading in Abby Winters movies?
I love when people say things like, “some porn degrades women, some porn degrades men.” Making it seem like porn is this egalitarian force with equal parts degradement of both genders. But that’s not really the truth in my opinion. Men are not as degraded in porn as women are. Not as often. Although I do think that porn can also degrade men. I think perhaps our ideas about what is degrading might also be different. I think it’s very easy for men to not really take into account the ways women are depicted that a woman herself might consider… Read more »
Sex before marriage is degrading to some people. Oral sex is degrading to some people, degradation and what we find offensive I guess is subjective. What you find degrading I might not consider degrading at all, I know there are some people I’ve known who find the idea of porn degrading, hell showing cleavage is degrading to them. You probably see more of what is degrading to women, and men can see more of what is degrading to men, that could mean porn is fairly equally degrading but we both see mostly our own genders degradation. I don’t think the… Read more »
The amateur and “pro amateur” (pro companies trying to act amateur, gonzo angles) show a huge amount of couple based videos, there are plenty of pro movies trying to do the whole couples experience. I dislike much of the pro industry though as I can’t stand fakeness. Why does some porn have problems with misogyny? Find me a medium free of misogyny and misandry. It has a problem because some people are misogynist and like that stuff, some like to fantasize about it and quite frankly I’m guessing because there probably wasn’t a lot of variety in the pro industry… Read more »
And why do people want to ignore that because a few low-key videos that might showing a “loving couple”. Erin, the fastest growing segment of the online pornography market is “amateur” videos hosted on tube sites for user-generated content. It’s more than a “few low-key videos” and they’re not difficult to find. Perhaps you’d be interested in Cindy Gallup’s project, MLNP.tv, which is committed to creating exactly the type of porn I imagine you wouldn’t find objectionable. You might also consider why it’s important for a woman to have an orgasm in porn videos. I mean, if it was all… Read more »
Nick, what does “amateur” exactly mean though? It seems that all it means are people having sex that don’t have the fancy set or camera work. It doesn’t necessarily mean “average people” having sex. I am sure that porn companies produce “amateur” porn of the stereotypes I talked about but just make it look amateur. To me, I get the impression that a number of you guys are saying, “Hey, this porn exists, the porn I think is positive, so the porn industry is A-Okay”. Just because there are people who are well fed in America, doesn’t mean there isn’t… Read more »
“I think the reason that it’s important to see the woman in the video have an orgasms, is still connected to male ego. Men feel even more good about themselves if they make a woman orgasm. But it’s not some aulterisitc move. It’s because it feeds his ego.” That’s a very jaded view you have there…Do you honestly think most men don’t care about a woman’s pleasure for her own sake? “Whenever this topic comes up, a large chunk of men are so ready to say “I only look at the most respectful, sweet, kind love making porn. I despise… Read more »
But guess what Nick, based on that very book, “youth” apparently was the most popular sexual category searched. I don’t know but your comments made it seem like the research found unusual things. To me, it just seems to reinforce the points I was making. …. Whenever this topic comes up, a large chunk of men are so ready to say “I only look at the most respectful, sweet, kind love making porn. I despise degrading hardcore porn.” Yet, actual viewing habits contradict that. Your argument was that most men are consuming degrading, violent porn. It turns out most men… Read more »
No, my argument wasn’t just that men were consuming degrading violent porn. I never said, “my arguement is just about violent degrading porn.” I have also talked about how women are catagorized like “treats” for the picking and that the disproportionate amount of youth obession in porn is also a way women can be degraded. Real women. From young women to older women alike. Because it is on the premise that age and looks are the most important things about women. This is another form of degradation although more subtle then something violently degrading.
And let me add that the same amount of ageism doesn’t happen to men in porn that it does to women. The message? Women worth is dependent on their age. Men can be any age and be worthwhile and women can’t. Sadly, even younger women get older at some point and that means a new crop of young women need to come in to keep the men entertained. Us women sure must be disappointments to men with our aging and all. But at least you got all those young hot babes to oggle after and your faithful partner can smile… Read more »
I should clarify that I don’t mean “you” specifically. I am speaking in general terms.
“My question is, why does porn infact have problems with misogyny? ”
Short answer: It doesn’t. You do. Your interpretation, your impression of “all porn everywhere,” is 100% your issue to deal with. Nobody has any obligation to make the world safe, friendly, and inoffensive to you and your personal standards.
I’ll remember that next time a guy as an issue with the way men are represented in media themselves. Such as all those sitcoms that make the father/husband out to be some kind of idiot.
Shorter form to remember for future discussions: “Being offended doesn’t make you right.”
It helps to try diversify at least. There are legitimate gripes Erin and others have brought up, I don’t agree with them being ALL or nearly always like that, but I do agree there is a hell of a lot of badly made porn. I skip over so many videos because of it, I cringe seeing the descriptions people make and think those people need to goto a class on how to respect women before being allowed to see them naked. It pisses me off a lot to see the degrading talk about people in the adult entertainment industry or… Read more »
Because porn isn’t marketed the same way other goods and services are marketed.
I don’t understand Nick. Porn is so easy to find. You google “porn” and bam, there it is. It’s not like you have to search through intricate webs of searches to find porn. It seemed to me that what Roger was saying was that you had to search through a lot of porn to find something “ethical”. Whatever “ethical” means to Roger in this case.
Porn isn’t marketed the same as other goods and services. If I want grass-fed beef and free-range eggs, I know there is a Whole Foods that specializes in that, or the “organic” section of my local grocer. There are radio ads and billboards promoting such. Even if you’ve never had an interest in cage free, hormone free chickens you probably know where you can find some. The same is not true of pornography. If you want a specific type, ethically produced in this example, you need to do a bit more legwork. The people producing such pornography are typically couples… Read more »
You aren’t answering my question. Roger made this point in his article: “That porn is fundamentally disrespectful towards women, and to enjoy porn is to be a misogynist. I used to assume this was true, and trying to reconcile my love of women with my enjoyment of porn was a challenge. Eventually I was relieved to discover that despite the presence of porn in my life, I didn’t hate women or want to treat my female partners badly. If the misogyny myth wasn’t true for me, then maybe it simply wasn’t true.” Yet Roger also talks about how he has… Read more »
Why would Roger have to search so hard to find ethical porn, per his own idea of what ethical means, if porn wasn’t inherently degrading toward women? There is nothing “inherent” in porn. Porn is an art form. It can be degrading or it can be celebratory. It can be morally bankrupt or ethically responsible. The majority of porn is undoubtedly the former – produced by unscrupulous individuals who place profit over people, who use up so many actors until they have nothing left to offer and then turn them out. We are right to oppose them. But that doesn’t… Read more »
Lots of bad porn can simply be popular in the search engines, what is popular or just heavily advertised is probably often bad to women but it doesn’t mean all porn is bad to women, which is what we’re all trying to say. Porn is just an artform and can be abused like any other.
All this attention to how porn can hurt your sex life, all of this assumes you HAVE a sex life. Sex (like the kind where your partner is literally bouncing with enthusiastic consent for you) is INCREDIBLY rare for a giant chunk of people (especially men). It takes an ENORMOUS amount of time and effort just get laid in the first place at all for some people, encouraging folks to pile on all this “programing your brain” crap and encouraging people to use less of it is pretty glib if you assume people will just “magically get laid” instead if… Read more »
Well said. One of the main reasons why women and “couples” focus on porn is because they’re far less likely to use it as sex is procured much more easily for those two groups. In addition, for women, the always interested male is an extraordinarily important dynamic of power that is summarily lost when ubiquitous porn exists. It’s far more important for society to have males forced to DO something beneficial (and often not for themselves — usually for females or established couples/families) in order to procure sex — porn undercuts this system massively. Hence the idea that porn has… Read more »
Excellent point, Ugh. And it bears repeating. “It’s distracting you and hurting your real relationships” is based on the assumption that you HAVE some real relationships, or can get one. Neither assumption is safe to make about anyone.
I agree that it’s stupid and problematic that so many people think you can use interpersonal sex as an alternative to masturbation and pornography. Even if you’re grab the first person who is willing, finding that person is no easy task, even with bars and internet dating. Finding a partner with whom you can have a deep connection is infinitely better but infinitely more difficult than a seemingly infinitely difficult task. Of course most women require a deep connection, or at least trust, before they will consider sex, which is why they could theoretically shack up anytime, but still have… Read more »
maybe that’s why I thought 50 Shades of Grey is absolute dreck. I couldn ‘t even
finish it. It is just awful, so poorly written and idiotic it’s just laughable. But I’m neither conservative nor a soccer mom.
I don’t know if women love Christian in 50 Shades b/c he’s into S&M or because he’s a billionaire who flies a helicopter.
Very good point.
If you are not a man who possesses certain characteristics, your chances for sexual experience can be slim to none. In many cases you will end up in the friend zone because no woman finds you sexually attractive even though you are kind and nice enough for her trust.
And then you have all these courses and trainers telling men they have to change totally who they are to attract more women. Some people are just as not as charming as nothers no matter what they do.
Sex (like the kind where your partner is literally bouncing with enthusiastic consent for you) is INCREDIBLY rare for a giant chunk of people (especially men). The phrase ‘enthusiastic consent’ is a bit bothersome. It’s a false assumption that if a woman isn’t screaming and bouncing and nodding with a big grin that she isn’t enjoying herself or that she’s not agreeing to the act. That’s kind of scary. Sometimes (not all the time, of course), great feeling sex isn’t like that, whether it’s within the act itself or the decision to have sex. My most intense and mind-blowing orgasms… Read more »
So often it’s women who are thought to not really enjoy sex, and they do it as a chore. Hell if you read some of the women who comment on this site there is this real undertone that they GIVE sex, they don’t share it, it’s this thing they really don’t care too much about and it’s probably why some women may feel they are just a hole to be fucked vs a human to share sex with. For men whose partners aren’t very enthusiastic about sex, have sex rarely, the allure of porn can probably be pretty great since… Read more »
I am the type of woman who initiates sex, and I can tell you from experience that a lotof men don’t like it all that much. It confuses them and causes them anxiety because now they have to “perform” and meet my needs when they are used to being the aggressor and meeting their own needs. I’ve always found this sad and frustrating in many relationships. I’m a pretty sex positive person (despite my other comments here about not liking porn too much) and I’m really enthusiastic about sex. It’s actually difficult to find guys who truly appreciate that and… Read more »
Sarah, very good point. Your post exemplifies why drugs like Viagra and Cialis are so popular these days, even amongst young men. Many men feel pressured to perform with women in bed and the psychological anxiety to perform leads to erectile dysfunction. Sadly. many men who suffer from this anxiety in having sex with a woman or some type of ED resort to porn as an alternative. With the rampant availability of porn on the internet, many men can just masturbate to porn and not have to worry about “getting it up” or pleasing a woman. The bad thing about… Read more »
I agree with everything you said cleopas.
It’s exactly the same with women’s sex toy use. They even have a term that is used proudly to show that they use them to have “virtual sex rather than pursuing an intimate relationship with a real and being intimate with a real man.”
In fact, they even proudly call them their B.O.B., battery operated boyfriend, except that they “don’t leave their socks on the floor.”
A sex toy that aids in masturbation isn’t the same thing as pornography Eric. While both can be used to reach orgasm, with porn, the person watching it receives all kinds of messages about sexuality, even relationships between men and women. There is a much more deep and visceral pyschological element going on in porn and human sexuality then anything like a sex toy could bring. By the way, men have options to use their own sex toys too. They don’t though for whatever reason. But I think a much more fair comparision is a sex toy to a sex… Read more »
“A sex toy that aids in masturbation isn’t the same thing as pornography Eric.” They are generally used for the same purpose. They help the viewer/user derive sexual pleasure without the necessity of interaction with another human. The difference being that pornography doesn’t physically touch the person. “While both can be used to reach orgasm, with porn, the person watching it receives all kinds of messages about sexuality, even relationships between men and women.” A difference is that sex toys, particularly the phallic types physically objectify, creating a sexual expectation that normal males are unable to achieve.… Read more »
Eric, to a degree they are used for the same purpose. I disagree that using an inanimate object is the same thing as using a visual media that displays interaction between men and women and deeper psychological stories at a much more intricate level then anything an inanimate object could do. It would kind of be like saying a spatula, something that you use to scrape cookies off a bake sheet, a tool used to help make cookies, is more of the problem or equal to the problem of the cookie industry that knows how to market and play off… Read more »
“With the rampant availability of porn on the internet, many men can just masturbate to porn and not have to worry about “getting it up” or pleasing a woman.”
How is that a bad thing? Have you considered that many men (and women) find virtual sex more fun and satisfying than the parade of angry, selfish, and hateful potential ‘partners’ they’ve encountered in real life?
Frankly, if some women are angry about men turning to porn, maybe they should be asking why porn is preferable to their company.
It’s my personal belief that being able to relate to other people makes one a more well rounded person. I know that I have had to develop a lot of growth along the way in learning how to relate to men. It hasn’t been easy. There has been a lot of pain and tears and hard times. But I also know that I have become more caring and a better partner in learning about how to give my partner what he may need that might be seperate from myself. I don’t think I would be a better person if I… Read more »
Porn has become the default “sex education” for men because there has been no alternative. But now there is! PassionateU.com and KinkAcademy.com are two sites designed specifically to draw back the fantasy of porn and show men and women, singles and couples how to make sex hot for themselves rather than just watching it in the movies. Adults haven’t had a way to learn about sex in a straight-forward way based on reality, so I’ve worked hard to provide an option where people can learn about expressing a wide variety of sexual interests. Porn can be great for visual stimulation… Read more »
Roger, there is a lot of brilliance happening here. I think what resounded for me most is the idea that “no” is as much a part of great sex as “yes”. And I don’t mean that in a “No means No” sort of way. It’s about the way two people, when they come together, form a unique act based upon the yes-es, no-s, pushes, pulls, noises and flushes. For a person to move their partner’s hand away from something that isn’t working is just another way of building the best sex possible, and that’s not something you see in porn.… Read more »
But do you really think there’s an epidemic of people mistaking movies for reality? Because that’s what the “porn is misleading” arguments are saying, that impressionable kids can’t tell the difference. We’re not talking about five-year olds putting on a towel-cape and jumping off roofs to fly like Superman; we’re talking about teenagers who already know that everything they see on a video screen is a slickly produced lie.
I don’t think it’s as literal as “mistaking movies for reality”, however there are many other sources for children to learn about gravity than just watching Superman. They see it and feel it every day, and their parents tell them not to jump off the couch, so most extrapolate that to roofs. They’re taught about it in every other way. As far as sexuality, there is so much porn, so readily available to kids at such young ages and there isn’t exactly a lot of other sexual education happening. Not that there ever was much, but now there’s very little… Read more »
That’s quite a jump–from “porn isn’t misleading” to “porn has no influence whatsoever.” I’m pretty sure there’s a very wide space in between those positions. My point is that mistaking online videos for real life is not as common a problem as some anti-porn activists claim, and that’s only going to diminish as future generations spend more and more time accustomed to nonstop video entertainment of all stripes.
I am hoping that if they do look at porn when young, they look at amateur content of real couples as it’s the closest to reality. I’d hate for them to see some of the more extreme porn though.
Yeah, imagine your eleven year old Googling “fisting.” It was so much easier when the neighbor’s kid snuck a playboy out for us all to look at, full of wonder and bereft of comprehension of just what we were seeing.
The extreme stuff is exactly what they see first. When they Google ‘porn’ they don’t get amateur ‘real’ stuff. I’ve checked.
Yeah. “Talk to each other” is maybe the single best sex advice you can give. Drop the idea that you’re supposed to know what your partner likes. Drop the idea that sex is supposed to work out by magic. Human beings have evolved language, and we use it for everything else. Use it for sex. Talk about what you like and do not like – before, during, and after.
And thanks, Roger, for a well balanced piece.
I agree that it would be good to discuss porn with our young men and women before they start getting into it (and since many young people are on the internet at a very early age, we need to educate early on, like at age 8 or 9). There are beginning to be good studies showing that pornography (like gambling, drugs, and pleasures of all kinds) can be addictive. My book, Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places: Overcoming Romantic and Sexual Addictions, published in 1988 was one of the first books to look at this topic. I’d also… Read more »
Porn is alright to help out on lonely nights but I much rather have sex with a living person, my attraction to a lover is about 1000000x more potent than any attraction to the most hottest pornstar in a video.
Fortunately, the current generation is growing up fully wired and plugged in, and should be able to recognize porn as exactly the same as all other forms of media–fictionalized entertainment with only a passing resemblance to real life. And the proliferation of ‘amateur porn’ online should give them a window into more realistic situations too.