10 Things I Wish Someone Had Told Me About Porn

 Roger Barnett thinks we’re doing a disservice to young men by offering them porn as their only real form of sexual education.

I wish someone had sat down with me when I was in my early teens and had a frank chat about pornography and sex. In the absence of genuine information about sex, pornography became a de-facto educational tool, and I assumed what it portrayed was accurate. Needless to say, like many teens, this set me up to get about a hundred things wrong in bed in the future

I’m not anti-porn. Indeed, if we’re talking about sex between consenting adults, I’m decidedly liberal. But porn has its dangers and needs to be framed in some kind of context and coupled with real information. Otherwise, like me, our youth are in for an unpleasant series of surprises when they attempt to copy what they see in porn with their own partners; the real world is far more complicated – and interesting! – than much of what’s on our screens.

Before I divulge my sometimes embarrassingly earned lessons, I need to tackle a pervasive myth: That porn is fundamentally disrespectful towards women, and to enjoy porn is to be a misogynist. I used to assume this was true, and trying to reconcile my love of women with my enjoyment of porn was a challenge. Eventually I was relieved to discover that despite the presence of porn in my life, I didn’t hate women or want to treat my female partners badly. If the misogyny myth wasn’t true for me, then maybe it simply wasn’t true

The alleged link between porn and a hatred of women has never been demonstrated by research. Personally, I believe that if one already hates women (or men), one will find porn that expresses that hatred in a sexualised way. However, if in life you approach people with respect, then you will find that nasty porn is just not to your liking. We live in liberal times, and you have access to an incredible array of stimulus; keep searching until you find something ethical.

So here is what I wish someone had told me:

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1. No two people are the same, and no two people like the same things in bed. Further, what a person likes will change depending on who they’re with, and even at different times with the same partner. In mainstream porn, certain themes emerge, and it’s easy to assume that those recurrent patterns can be transposed onto all partners. It is better to start sex from a perspective of curiosity and a willingness to experiment (and watch the feedback), rather than with an arsenal of moves up your sleeve that might have worked for somebody else.

2. The sex and sexual techniques that are portrayed in pornography are selected based on what will look dynamic on screen, rather than what is enjoyable or what the actors themselves might actually like. This means that big, dramatic, and often hard-core sex scenes take up most of the time in porn, and the less grandiose and subtler things get left out simply because they’re not as cinematic. There’s a place for big, fast, athletic sex, but there’s also a place for slow, intimate acts done with the right attitude. As with all sex, the best way to navigate is to simply run some experiments, and ask for feedback.

3. A lot of heterosexual porn is somewhat stereotyped in terms of gender roles; he will generally be the pursuer, the active one, the one on top, while she will be pursued, more passive, and often be on the bottom. Sticking rigidly to these roles doesn’t work for most people. You’re short-changing yourself if you never switch things around and play with the dynamics, even if only for five minutes here and there, to see what you like.

4. All bodies are beautiful. Pornography (and the fashion and advertising industries, generally), cater almost exclusively to people of a certain shape, and we are led to believe that only these people are sexy. The truth is that what a person is like in bed depends on their relationship to you, and their relationship to their own body. The way they look gives you no information about either of these things – although the way they look at you will give you some hints!

5. Pubic hair is beautiful. Some people get rid of it, others don’t; both have their advantages. Learn to have fun either way, and love your own body either way. Being comfortable in your own body, however it looks, is perhaps the greatest gift you can offer to yourself and those you choose to share your body with.

6. Saying “no” is as much a part of sex as saying “yes”. It’s easy to assume, from watching porn, that a good lover will already know a hundred and one tricks to get any partner off. In reality, sex is a constant and creative series of experiments, some of which work, many of which don’t. There are no standards that work with all people, every time. Asking your partner to do something differently is a sure path to improving sex for the both of you, especially if it’s phrased as a positive request – “can you please try it more like this…?” – rather than simply “that’s not working for me”. Also, it should go without saying that if you don’t want something, you are always and unquestionably entitled to say a nice, clear “no” – both men and women suffer pressure to skip this important step.

7. Something that almost never comes across in pornography is the love – or at least the sense of intimacy – that exists between most partners.  It doesn’t make for easy screenplay, and most porn actors don’t have such feelings for one another. However, in your life, these are the things that will change sex from being a basic physical act, to a deeply moving and gratifying spiritual experience that brings you closer to your self and your partner (if you want it to).

(This point shouldn’t be read as a vote against casual sex with a relative stranger, if that’s what you’re into).

8. In the context of a relationship, sex starts hours, days, weeks before penetration – if penetration happens at all. When creating pornography, directors aren’t aiming to put together hours of tantalising dialogue and witty flirting, or even the unlimited varieties of foreplay that most folks enjoy; they’re pitching to an audience that they believe just wants to see explicit sex and lots of it, and so this is what is often produced. However, in real life, putting that much focus on just the hard-core parts of sex makes for some of the least enjoyable sex you could hope for. The way you and your partners treat each other throughout the day, and the way sex begins, makes a big difference to your enjoyment of sex.

9. The more you watch one particular kind of porn, or one particular body type, the more your brain will wire itself to associate that type of activity or person with sex. This has implications for your love life; be careful you don’t accidentally program yourself for a narrow band of enjoyment, as you might overlook a whole variety of other pleasures.

10. Porn works pretty well if you just want some relief. But again, you’re inadvertently programming yourself for quick, shallow orgasms if this is the extent of how you use it. Why not go the other way? – Set aside a couple of hours, rack up a suite of your favorite porn, and see how long you can hold out for. Soon you’ll be having orgasms you didn’t know were possible, and it will radically improve your love life, not detract from it.

♦◊♦

Good sex is both your right and it’s within your reach – treat it like any other skill that might benefit from some focus now and then. Pornography is not always useful as an educational resource, but nor is it pure evil. Let your own feedback and the feedback from your partner be your ultimate guide, and enjoy!

Originally posted on Equality for Men and Women’s Facebook page.

 

 For more, read Lynn Beisner’s Panda Three Way

 

Image of X on black keyboard courtesy of Shutterstock

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About Roger Barnett

Roger Barnett is a community development facilitator with an interest in psychology. He is as passionate about men's rights as he is about women's rights, and believes that ultimately we need to focus on what we have in common, rather than what we have in difference.
His Facebook page, Equality for Women and Men, can be found at http://www.facebook.com/EqualityForWomenAndMen.

Comments

  1. wellokaythen says:

    Here’s another piece of writing on the GMP that I largely agree with and that I think is extremely necessary. My only issues are with some minor language points that I think overstate the case just a little bit.

    Not all bodies are actually beautiful, certainly not equally beautiful. Any body CAN be beautiful, and no matter what body you have there is probably someone out there who can find it sexy. Same with pubic hair. Not all pubic hair is equally attractive. It’s a nice sentiment, the idea that everyone is beautiful in a unique way, but realistically that’s not quite true.

    Also, there’s already too much equating of sex with penetration. Penetration is not the be-all and end-all of sex, and it’s certainly not universal in porn anyway. (Leaving aside the fact that “penetration” is a very one-sided view of sexuality in the first place. When it comes to intercourse or fellatio, one could just as easily say “envelopment” as “penetration.” If I eat a corndog, I don’t say the corndog is penetrating me.)

    One problem with the prevalence of porn today is that it exists in a society that is otherwise repressed about nudity. For many young men, porn is not only their main source of information about sex, it’s also the only way they ever see any nudity besides their own. As you point out, it’s a distorted look not just at sex but at what most people actually look like.

    • pintsizeddame says:

      “Not all bodies are actually beautiful, certainly not equally beautiful. Any body CAN be beautiful, and no matter what body you have there is probably someone out there who can find it sexy. Same with pubic hair. Not all pubic hair is equally attractive. It’s a nice sentiment, the idea that everyone is beautiful in a unique way, but realistically that’s not quite true.”

      Your statement is entirely subjective.

  2. Delft Quarterbuck says:

    11. Pornography needs to be treated with caution as it can be addictive.

    I was interested to see what this article was going to be about and guessed it would have carried a message like this – I’d be interested to know the proportion of people reading this who would say they were addicted to porn – there has to be lots as it’s a huge part of the online experience as far as I can tell – a co worker told me he was looking up some BMX stuff with his children and got a link to a really unfortunate xxx site – lucky he was there – that wouldn’t have appeared if there was no market for it.

    • Of course there is a market for it, this is a moot point. Additionally, there is child safe software for browsing the web, so the point about your colleague’s children is just sophistry.

      One must consider the definition of addiction:
      noun
      1. the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation CAUSES SEVERE TRAUMA. (source – dictionary.com)

      In my opinion, yes I am sure there are some people with addictive personality disorders who are users and become hooked. So here we have the habit side of the definition, but what about the harm? Unless these people are losing the ability to maintain a relationship or function on a daily basis, they are allowed to do as they please in their spare time.

      Further, I don’t believe the majority do become “hooked” and I am a porn user aged 24 who uses irregularly perhaps once a fortnight, (sometimes more frequently sometimes less), not a great deal for someone who likes to masturbate every day.

      • Quick point about addiction…Addiction is very complicated. I’d trust dictionary.com for the definition of “obfuscate”, but not with the definition of addiction. The Diagnostics and Statistics Manual of Mental Disorders (the DSM) is the de facto place to find definitions about mental illnesses (not dictionary.com). However, even psychiatrists have been arguing over the definition of addiction and even the existence of behavioral addictions, which will be included in the next version, the DSM-V. This argument stems from the fact that most addictions are to substances, like opioid narcotics, and not to behaviors. Over time, and in certain individuals, something addictive produces an intense desire to consume more of the substance despite negative consequences (losing your job, damaging relationships, bad for your health, you feel terrible afterward). It stands to reason that if instead of a substance, there is a behavior, like porn, sex, gambling, shopping, etc, that a person does despite a lot of negative consequences (STDs, debt, shallow relationships, damaged relationships), then for all intents and purposes, it is a behavioral addiction. You may not have physiological withdrawal symptoms, but withdrawal may cause anxiety, depression, apathy, anhedonia, etc.

        • I am familiar with the DSM, the definitions are not too distant from one another. In fact, the DSM is so realistic, it only classes pathological gambling as a behavioural addiction. Where is porn addiction, the re-wiring of the brain etc in the DSM?
          You rerefence behavioural traits “STDs, debt, shallow relationships and damaged relationships” as though they are not naturally occurring?
          When does a habit become causal? How can you empiracally prove causality?
          AND when does the individual take responsibility for their own actions?

          Life needs a sharp dose of caveat emptor (buyers beware), confucius should have councilled “wise man not blame external stimulus for mans flaws. Wise man take responsibility for and accept his own actions.”

          • You bring up good points which reveal the tenuous definition of addiction and other mental illnesses.

            I am not sure what they will explicitly mention in the DSM V with regard to behavioral addictions, i.e. compulsive gambling, shopping, sex, etc. I believe that there is a diagnosis of behavioral addictions “not otherwise specified”. This is basically a catch-all for behavioral addictions (compulsive shopping, internet use, sex, porn, etc). This was likely used to not upset people who say “sex is natural and not addictive”, but also to appease the people who insist that there are countless people whose lives are ruined by sexual addictions. Unfortunately, this ambiguity will be argued and maliciously used for years.

            Wherein lies the truth? Is sex addictive or not? What is a mental illness? Unfortunately, mentall illnesses are often spectrum disorders. Everyone experiences aspects of many things in the DSM, but to varying degrees (hence the use of the term “spectrum”). I feel sad sometimes, does that mean I am depressed? When I start a new relationship, I can’t stop thinking about sex-am I a sex addict? Additionally, although there is a genetic component to addiction, environment is important as well. Both are necessary, but neither are sufficient. People with terrible childhoods do not always become depressed addicts. People whose parents were depressed addicts are not necessarily doomed to the same fate. Yet some things, like genetics and childhood traumas, are correlated with higher incidences of mental illness and addiction.

            There will never be a consensus on what constitutes addiction and mental illness. Your desire for people to take complete responsibility for their actions will never be entirely satisfied. Causality will never be undeniably proven. Ultimately, the proof lies in the pudding, based on the subjective experience of every individual. If someone spends countless hours trying to find new sex partners, ruins their relationships, hates what they are doing, and they can’t stop, then they probably have a sex addiction. Conversely, if someone spends countless hours trying to find new sex partners, and they love it, then they probably don’t have a sex addiction.

            • Some well considered points G. My point was probably not truly in line with my thinking, I think there are innumerate grey areas in this debate. On the whole, I am of the view that the anti-porn camp seem to use extreme examples to showcase the dangers of porn, yet they refuse to see the middle ground. If we gave them an inch they’d take a mile and probably rail for a ban against nudes in art.

              I think it comes from Anglo-Saxon Christian attitudes towards pornography. For them sex and nudity are both pejorative and this has permeated into society’s views on the matter.
              Christians reference pornography as causal to marriage break-up and demonise how it damages men, families and marriage. Ultimately, for the average Joe without a fetish or a mental illness or social difficulties or a number of other things. I just do not buy it.

              I think these people are nuts, they believe in fairy tails and want to dictate to society how we should think read and act. For a man of reason, it is deeply offensive.

              “Jesus cries when you masturbate” is one they use often. I mean really? He watches me masturbate, that’s kind f*cked up!

            • Nick, mostly says:

              There is a good argument to be made that much of what we want to call “behavioral addiction” would be better classified under obsessive and compulsive behavior. The trouble I have with classifying a behavior as “addictive” is in the manifestation of withdrawal symptoms. If those symptoms are lacking I have a hard time calling the behavior addictive.

  3. “I need to tackle a pervasive myth: That porn is fundamentally disrespectful towards women, and to enjoy porn is to be a misogynist.”
    Too true, that’s the biggest myth of all.

    • And a surprisingly common one, among people (okay, most of them women) who believe that they understand ‘what men like about porn.’ It’s funny how often those confident declarations turn out to be completely wrong.

      • Yes I’ve had some mega debates with women like that. I love being told I don’t respect women and being told what porn I watch, especially when the porn they talk about is stuff I NEVER watch. The most common porn I watch comes from couples who make it for fun and women who are solo and run their own sites.

      • The Blurpo says:

        ” And a surprisingly common one, among people (okay, most of them women) who believe that they understand ‘what men like about porn.’ It’s funny how often those confident declarations turn out to be completely wrong. ”

        I really wonder how some women can really belive to understand what guys feels and think around pornography. I get even more surprised, when somebody even try to debate their view. 99% of the complains from the women, in my opinion are total rubbish.
        Its like listening to a man who claims to understand women and know what they want. And then he send a stream of emails and mms of his penis. DUH!

        Usually people who are judgemental have already their own preconcived opinions, and they fight to bitter end for them. In my experience for the majority of time they are not honest, and usually they have another agenda. Then offcourse there are people who are really concerned. But in this case, if they are honest, they better listen to the people they are judging. Because 99% of the time they have no clue what they are talking about. And this is applies for every topic, not only porn.

        • In a society where women ARE consistently treated as though their appearence is their primary indicator of worth, and where is a very rigid and for many (if not nearly all) people completely impossible ideal to reach, (and to which the VAST majority of porn prescribes) it’s not surprising, really, that women jump to “defensive” conclusions.
          Especially because for the great majority of hetero, male porn users, the porn we consume is – even when non-violent, or “not hardcore” – riddled with unhealthy subliminal content, as this article discusses. This has a very negative impact on a lot of women, so it’s not really hard to understand why they jump to conclusions or have negative attitudes towards porn en-mass.
          Nor is it really the end of the world having to explain yourself to somebody, compared to the ramifications of porno misogyny that women actively face in their lives/relationships. It’s really a bit juvenile to be up in arms about, considering; not that having people assume you’re a misogynist isn’t lame.

          • And what of those women who it has been explained to, and still misunderstand it and then assume you to be misogynistic for it? Is that not also bad? It’s good to have conversations about why people look at porn for better understanding but so often the men get ignored at their word, AND THEN quite a few women will actively tell those men what the men are thinking, desire, why they look at porn, etc and make it into something extremely misogynist when it’s far from the reality.

      • Deanna Ogle says:

        Before I understood porn and its use, I got really angry with a boyfriend at the time for looking at it. I was very, “Sorry I don’t look like one of your porn stars.”

        I thought that porn was about the guy wanted to sleep with that actual woman. And while that can be the case, what I figured out once I took the time to understand it was that it is more about arousal and pleasure to the eye (at least for the people in my life).

        It doesn’t really have anything to do with me as a partner. Now, if my partner started watching porn habitually, stopped paying attention to me, and neglected our marriage (or started actively comparing me to one of them, or asked me to get surgery to look more like them, etc.), then that’s a good indicator that something in our relationship took a wrong turn or is unhealthy. But until then, I know (at least in my situation, it might not be in other people’s) that a hot woman or man in porn that he or I watch has no bearing on my sexuality or the sexuality in our relationship.

        When did I figure this out? Once I saw porn that turned me on too. That’s when I was like, “OH. That’s what this is about.”

        I mean, it’s different for everybody, but the men in my life who watch porn are not pigs, are not misogynist, and do not treat me like a piece of meat.

        I know porn and the use of it is HIGHLY subjective and is rather complex. I appreciate the points that the original poster pointed out. I wish someone had told me those too.

        • Omg finally a woman that gets it! Thank-you for commenting. It’s so hard to explain the desire for porn to those who aren’t turned on by it, it’s like trying to describe why cake tastes good or sex feels good to those that can’t orgasm, etc.

          • Nick, mostly says:

            I have a friend who doesn’t like cake. The idea is so foreign to me, I can’t quite fathom it. I mean, it’s cake! But I don’t infer anything else about him from his non-cake-eating proclivities. I don’t even infer that he doesn’t like sweets – it turns out he’s a big fan of crème brûlée and he doesn’t mind cheesecake.

            And that’s where a lot of people commenting here about porn go wrong. If you don’t like porn then don’t watch it. There’s no need to judge those who do watch it, particularly when you don’t know their viewing preferences. There is such a thing as ethical porn made by consenting adults with authentic pleasure in equal measure. But the people making such porn don’t have large advertising budgets: they don’t sponsor booths at conferences, buy web banners on adult-related sites, or use web pop-unders to trick you into viewing their video. If you don’t go looking for it I wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t know it existed.

            MLNP.tv is trying to change that. We’ll see how successful they end up being – after all, they’re competing with “free” and that’s a nearly insurmountable expectation. Google “red cross donuts” to see what I mean.

  4. Fortunately, the current generation is growing up fully wired and plugged in, and should be able to recognize porn as exactly the same as all other forms of media–fictionalized entertainment with only a passing resemblance to real life. And the proliferation of ‘amateur porn’ online should give them a window into more realistic situations too.

  5. I agree that it would be good to discuss porn with our young men and women before they start getting into it (and since many young people are on the internet at a very early age, we need to educate early on, like at age 8 or 9). There are beginning to be good studies showing that pornography (like gambling, drugs, and pleasures of all kinds) can be addictive. My book, Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places: Overcoming Romantic and Sexual Addictions, published in 1988 was one of the first books to look at this topic. I’d also recommend the information on the website: http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/, which has excellent information on what goes on in the brain when we stimulate it continuously with sexual imagery.

    It would be interesting to get a better idea of how many people become addicted to the ubiquitous presence of highly stimulating pornographic images available now on the internet. I know I can include myself in that number. How about you?

    • Porn is alright to help out on lonely nights but I much rather have sex with a living person, my attraction to a lover is about 1000000x more potent than any attraction to the most hottest pornstar in a video.

  6. Joanna Schroeder says:

    Roger, there is a lot of brilliance happening here. I think what resounded for me most is the idea that “no” is as much a part of great sex as “yes”. And I don’t mean that in a “No means No” sort of way. It’s about the way two people, when they come together, form a unique act based upon the yes-es, no-s, pushes, pulls, noises and flushes. For a person to move their partner’s hand away from something that isn’t working is just another way of building the best sex possible, and that’s not something you see in porn. It’s all for the camera, and so that sense of melting into what makes the other happy just simply goes away.

    In porn, the woman’s job is to be pleased, to act pleased, and so I worry about all these young people who will grow up with so much porn accessible to them. The girls may get the false idea that men like wild, aggressive, sex – and that they’ll like it ALL the time with absolutely no boundaries, and the boys may learn that women like a whole bunch of acrobatics that don’t usually lead to pleasure for most women. When one or both partners first says, “no” or “not right now” or “I don’t like that” or “do it like this, instead”, the other may feel really hurt because there’s no foundation for real communication about what works… Because it’s always supposed to work… Like it does in porn.

    • But do you really think there’s an epidemic of people mistaking movies for reality? Because that’s what the “porn is misleading” arguments are saying, that impressionable kids can’t tell the difference. We’re not talking about five-year olds putting on a towel-cape and jumping off roofs to fly like Superman; we’re talking about teenagers who already know that everything they see on a video screen is a slickly produced lie.

      • Joanna Schroeder says:

        I don’t think it’s as literal as “mistaking movies for reality”, however there are many other sources for children to learn about gravity than just watching Superman. They see it and feel it every day, and their parents tell them not to jump off the couch, so most extrapolate that to roofs. They’re taught about it in every other way.

        As far as sexuality, there is so much porn, so readily available to kids at such young ages and there isn’t exactly a lot of other sexual education happening. Not that there ever was much, but now there’s very little balance. Beyond that, because we see so much porn, I think there is less real vulnerability and exploration because everyone thinks they know about sex and are great at it because they’ve seen so much porn. Even “real” porn.

        We’re talking about kids starting at age 12 and younger… Do you really think it has no influence?

        • That’s quite a jump–from “porn isn’t misleading” to “porn has no influence whatsoever.” I’m pretty sure there’s a very wide space in between those positions. My point is that mistaking online videos for real life is not as common a problem as some anti-porn activists claim, and that’s only going to diminish as future generations spend more and more time accustomed to nonstop video entertainment of all stripes.

    • I am hoping that if they do look at porn when young, they look at amateur content of real couples as it’s the closest to reality. I’d hate for them to see some of the more extreme porn though.

      • Nick, mostly says:

        Yeah, imagine your eleven year old Googling “fisting.” It was so much easier when the neighbor’s kid snuck a playboy out for us all to look at, full of wonder and bereft of comprehension of just what we were seeing.

    • Yeah. “Talk to each other” is maybe the single best sex advice you can give. Drop the idea that you’re supposed to know what your partner likes. Drop the idea that sex is supposed to work out by magic. Human beings have evolved language, and we use it for everything else. Use it for sex. Talk about what you like and do not like – before, during, and after.

      And thanks, Roger, for a well balanced piece.

  7. Porn has become the default “sex education” for men because there has been no alternative. But now there is! PassionateU.com and KinkAcademy.com are two sites designed specifically to draw back the fantasy of porn and show men and women, singles and couples how to make sex hot for themselves rather than just watching it in the movies. Adults haven’t had a way to learn about sex in a straight-forward way based on reality, so I’ve worked hard to provide an option where people can learn about expressing a wide variety of sexual interests.

    Porn can be great for visual stimulation & fantasy, but it doesn’t have to be the only way adults see sex.

  8. All this attention to how porn can hurt your sex life, all of this assumes you HAVE a sex life. Sex (like the kind where your partner is literally bouncing with enthusiastic consent for you) is INCREDIBLY rare for a giant chunk of people (especially men). It takes an ENORMOUS amount of time and effort just get laid in the first place at all for some people, encouraging folks to pile on all this “programing your brain” crap and encouraging people to use less of it is pretty glib if you assume people will just “magically get laid” instead if they restrict their porn use.

    If anything, porn is the regular dependable alternative to the rare option for the real thing, why diminish the regular experience only in the hopes that IF you manage to find a partner halfway interested enough in you enough to say yes once, you might have a better time?

    • Well said. One of the main reasons why women and “couples” focus on porn is because they’re far less likely to use it as sex is procured much more easily for those two groups.

      In addition, for women, the always interested male is an extraordinarily important dynamic of power that is summarily lost when ubiquitous porn exists. It’s far more important for society to have males forced to DO something beneficial (and often not for themselves — usually for females or established couples/families) in order to procure sex — porn undercuts this system massively. Hence the idea that porn has some giant deleterious effect on men, and the subsequent promotion by this very magazine.

      Remember that the equivalent version of female porn (of the 50 shades of grey ilk, etc.) that portray men as fantastic, powerful, virile, and totally unreal is not only NOT condemned, but lionized in many circles (i.e. being a NY times best seller). No one is writing on how this sort of chic lit is causing our women to expect their men to be absurd and a similar clarion call to reduce their expectations of men in bed and in life — despite the evidence that it is women who dissolve marriages and possibly relationships more often than men, many times for trivial matters.

    • Excellent point, Ugh. And it bears repeating. “It’s distracting you and hurting your real relationships” is based on the assumption that you HAVE some real relationships, or can get one. Neither assumption is safe to make about anyone.

    • QuantumInc says:

      I agree that it’s stupid and problematic that so many people think you can use interpersonal sex as an alternative to masturbation and pornography. Even if you’re grab the first person who is willing, finding that person is no easy task, even with bars and internet dating. Finding a partner with whom you can have a deep connection is infinitely better but infinitely more difficult than a seemingly infinitely difficult task. Of course most women require a deep connection, or at least trust, before they will consider sex, which is why they could theoretically shack up anytime, but still have so much trouble romantically and sexually.

      Pornography and masturbation is almost always depicted as being an alternative to interpersonal sex, but this is a false dichotomy. Clearly these are radically different experiences, the arousal and orgasm is the only real similarity. To my knowledge, people tend to masturbate more when they have a new partner. Many liberal leaning sex educators advise an-orgasmic women to learn to masturbate before they can orgasm during interpersonal sex. Why are there so many women who think a man could give them an orgasm when they can’t even do it to themselves? I have also read a blog from Liandra Dahl where she complained that her wife is so horny she never gets a chance to masturbate. She believes ones needs both masturbation and interpersonal sex in their life, though masturbation comes first.

      Pornography is simply erotic images meant to help you along your arousal cycle. Mental stimulation, visual erotica, nothing more. It helps with masturbation to have some sexual images reflected on your retinas rather than relying solely on your mind’s eye. Romance novels typically have more actual story, though often that’s filling because passages of literary pornography. 50 shades and Twilight dominate the romance genre not because they have great characters, complex plots, or action, but because the authors understand the inner sexual lives of conservative, insecure, sexually immature, soccer moms. Because they ARE conservative, insecure, sexually immature, soccer moms.

      • maybe that’s why I thought 50 Shades of Grey is absolute dreck. I couldn ‘t even
        finish it. It is just awful, so poorly written and idiotic it’s just laughable. But I’m neither conservative nor a soccer mom.

        I don’t know if women love Christian in 50 Shades b/c he’s into S&M or because he’s a billionaire who flies a helicopter.

    • d'artagnan says:

      Very good point.
      If you are not a man who possesses certain characteristics, your chances for sexual experience can be slim to none. In many cases you will end up in the friend zone because no woman finds you sexually attractive even though you are kind and nice enough for her trust.

      And then you have all these courses and trainers telling men they have to change totally who they are to attract more women. Some people are just as not as charming as nothers no matter what they do.

    • Sex (like the kind where your partner is literally bouncing with enthusiastic consent for you) is INCREDIBLY rare for a giant chunk of people (especially men).

      The phrase ‘enthusiastic consent’ is a bit bothersome. It’s a false assumption that if a woman isn’t screaming and bouncing and nodding with a big grin that she isn’t enjoying herself or that she’s not agreeing to the act. That’s kind of scary. Sometimes (not all the time, of course), great feeling sex isn’t like that, whether it’s within the act itself or the decision to have sex. My most intense and mind-blowing orgasms have come from sex where I can slowly focus on my pleasure and not worry about performing. It’s not that women can’t/won’t perform and embellish (I love seeing my man feel pleased and doing the things he likes me to do)–it’s just that when we don’t, it doesn’t mean that we aren’t having the time of our lives. Ideally, you mix it up. You have fast, loud, bouncy sex some of the time and slow, concentrate-y, intimate sex other times (and a mixture of everything in between). I think the phrase ‘enthusastic consent’ is a bit misleading, especially in terms of rape talk (which is where I’ve heard it the most). There are definitely times when I or my partner will be sitting around and one of us will ask the other something like “hey, wanna squeeze in some sex or something?” And the other one will answer, “sure, why not.” We’ll get down to business and then just go back to whatever we were doing. It’s the same level of consent as when we’re ripping each others’ clothes off, throwing each other down, pulling hair, and waking the neighbors. Adding the qualifier ‘enthusiastic’ makes it seem like there have to be exclamation points, and that if there aren’t, it’s rapey or one person is using the other. Consent is consent. Lack of consent is rape.

      • So often it’s women who are thought to not really enjoy sex, and they do it as a chore. Hell if you read some of the women who comment on this site there is this real undertone that they GIVE sex, they don’t share it, it’s this thing they really don’t care too much about and it’s probably why some women may feel they are just a hole to be fucked vs a human to share sex with.

        For men whose partners aren’t very enthusiastic about sex, have sex rarely, the allure of porn can probably be pretty great since the women in porn are generally interested, enthusiastic, even initiate the sex. For the relationships this happens in, the men most likely do notice she isn’t very interested in sex and it probably feels like she isn’t interested IN HIM, seeing as sex is one of the most important aspects of male intimacy. If my partner rarely wanted sex with me, I would be fucking crushed and want to know why the fires aren’t there. Without knowing why I’d most likely feel rejected, feel she is cold, feel she doesn’t love me, etc.

        • I am the type of woman who initiates sex, and I can tell you from experience that a lotof men don’t like it all that much. It confuses them and causes them anxiety because now they have to “perform” and meet my needs when they are used to being the aggressor and meeting their own needs. I’ve always found this sad and frustrating in many relationships. I’m a pretty sex positive person (despite my other comments here about not liking porn too much) and I’m really enthusiastic about sex. It’s actually difficult to find guys who truly appreciate that and can deal with a woman who loves sex and who has a strong sex drive, Like I said, it’s very sad but I’ve actually had to repress myself somewhat so as not to pester men too much with my desire for sex.

          Just thought I should add a different perspective.

          • Sarah, very good point. Your post exemplifies why drugs like Viagra and Cialis are so popular these days, even amongst young men. Many men feel pressured to perform with women in bed and the psychological anxiety to perform leads to erectile dysfunction.
            Sadly. many men who suffer from this anxiety in having sex with a woman or some type of ED resort to porn as an alternative. With the rampant availability of porn on the internet, many men can just masturbate to porn and not have to worry about “getting it up” or pleasing a woman. The bad thing about Porn is it allows men to have virtual sex rather than pursuing an intimate relationship with a real and being intimate with a real woman.

            • I agree with everything you said cleopas.

            • It’s exactly the same with women’s sex toy use. They even have a term that is used proudly to show that they use them to have “virtual sex rather than pursuing an intimate relationship with a real and being intimate with a real man.”

              In fact, they even proudly call them their B.O.B., battery operated boyfriend, except that they “don’t leave their socks on the floor.”

            • A sex toy that aids in masturbation isn’t the same thing as pornography Eric. While both can be used to reach orgasm, with porn, the person watching it receives all kinds of messages about sexuality, even relationships between men and women. There is a much more deep and visceral pyschological element going on in porn and human sexuality then anything like a sex toy could bring. By the way, men have options to use their own sex toys too. They don’t though for whatever reason. But I think a much more fair comparision is a sex toy to a sex toy. Not a sex toy, one object or device used to reach orgasm to an entire billion dollar world of visual and pyschological human exploration of the complicated net of our sexuality. A net that is often expressed, sometimes very ugly, in pornography.

            • “A sex toy that aids in masturbation isn’t the same thing as pornography Eric.”
               
              They are generally used for the same purpose. They help the viewer/user derive sexual pleasure without the necessity of interaction with another human. The difference being that pornography doesn’t physically touch the person.
               
              “While both can be used to reach orgasm, with porn, the person watching it receives all kinds of messages about sexuality, even relationships between men and women.”
               
              A difference is that sex toys, particularly the phallic types physically objectify, creating a sexual expectation that normal males are unable to achieve. That sends messages as well.
               
              “There is a much more deep and visceral pyschological element going on in porn and human sexuality then anything like a sex toy could bring.”
               
              On your opinion. And sex toys, especially the phallic variety, objectify in ways porn seldom does. They detach the rest of the human being, leaving only the genitals to be used for sex.
               
              “By the way, men have options to use their own sex toys too. They don’t though for whatever reason.”
               
              Correct. They relatively seldom use them. So, they’re irrelevant here. Men use porn whereas women use pornographic books (e.g. 50 Shades) along with sex toys. Why? Because it’s what works for each one.
               
              If you are honest about this campaign, you would equally include sex toys and books such as 50 Shades. Otherwise, it’s clear that your campaign is about attacking men by whatever means necessary.
               
              “But I think a much more fair comparison is a sex toy to a sex toy.”
               
              You yourself just admitted that men don’t use them much. So, there is no comparison. The only rationale comparison would be men’s use of visual porn to women’s use of books/magazines and sex toys. If you want to get rid of the former, you must also campaign to also get rid of the latter.

            • Eric, to a degree they are used for the same purpose. I disagree that using an inanimate object is the same thing as using a visual media that displays interaction between men and women and deeper psychological stories at a much more intricate level then anything an inanimate object could do.

              It would kind of be like saying a spatula, something that you use to scrape cookies off a bake sheet, a tool used to help make cookies, is more of the problem or equal to the problem of the cookie industry that knows how to market and play off human psychology to buy fattening food. That makes very little sense to me.

              You talked about how sex toys for women of the phallic variety create a sexual expectations that normal mans are unable achieve. And I agree with this! If a woman is always using something that vibrates and is huge and does everything but make her breakfast, her body will be trained to respond to that object more then what an average man can provide. Which is part of the reason I don’t use such sex toys. I don’t want to do something that is going to make me unable to relate to men in a healthy manner. I want the real thing! I am often left with the impression regarding porn that it isn’t about men wanting the real thing so much as men at times wanting porn and other times wanting real woman and using both as objects for his ultimate pleasure.

              Conversely, sex toys exist concerning a woman’s vagina. It’s a toy that is meant to mimic a woman’s vagina for men. This is much more comparable to objects a woman might use, much more so then pornographic material itself. Heck, there is an entire other industry of blow up dolls made of women. How many women do you know are sleeping with blow up versions of men? How do you think women should feel that plastic dolls are created to mimic them, usually these blow up dolls like like the epitome of porn-star, but be super hot that men are buying to have sex with? Is that someone how more “connected” because the entire form of some idealized version of woman is being used for gratification? I don’t think so. It doesn’t really matter if it’s a fake penis or vagina or the entire body, real or fake. At the end of the day, it’s all sexual objectification and disconnection.

              Unfortunately, I think men like and enjoy that objectification and disconnection.

              You said: “On your opinion. And sex toys, especially the phallic variety, objectify in ways porn seldom does. They detach the rest of the human being, leaving only the genitals to be used for sex.”

              No, it’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a fact. You will always have a deeper visceral display in a visual media like film or video that actually presents living, breathing human behavior vs any object you may come across. The reality is that pornography displays a deeper more intricate level of human behavior and psychology then any inanimate object ever will. That even includes blow up dolls for men.

              Someone might use a sex toy and fantasize about whatever turns them on, but it doesn’t come close to touching on the product being sold to the masses through a real visual media that displays real living breathing people.

              You said: “Correct. They relatively seldom use them. So, they’re irrelevant here. Men use porn whereas women use pornographic books (e.g. 50 Shades) along with sex toys. Why? Because it’s what works for each one.”

              I don’t think they are irrelevant at all. I think it’s interesting that men don’t use the feeling of a fake vagina to reach orgasm but instead lean toward an intricately psychological model that is sold to them through porn.

              You said: “If you are honest about this campaign, you would equally include sex toys and books such as 50 Shades. Otherwise, it’s clear that your campaign is about attacking men by whatever means necessary.”

              Lol, well please check some of the first few comments to this article and you will see someone else asked me about 50 Shades. I gave my feelings about it there and won’t take the time to repeat that here. It seems that you don’t realize that this article as specific to pornography and men. On topics about 50 Shades, we can talk about that. But that isn’t what this topic is about. But here is a hint about my feelings on that book…I think it’s crap.

              By the way, I love how that book as become an anthem for guys to hug their porn closer to their chests and point their fingers while screaming, “see look there look there women are reading that, leave my porn alone.” 
 
“But I think a much more fair comparison is a sex toy to a sex toy.”


              You said: “You yourself just admitted that men don’t use them much. So, there is no comparison. The only rationale comparison would be men’s use of visual porn to women’s use of books/magazines and sex toys. If you want to get rid of the former, you must also campaign to also get rid of the latter.”

              I agree that men don’t use them much. But why? Why don’t men use sex toys? This would still be the equal comparison. Sex toy to sex toy. Maybe we need to include the men that use blow up dolls in with how women may use their own sex toys. Still, sex toy to sex toy is what would be truly fair.

              Once again, you attempt to deter the topic away from what the actual article is about. Porn! And what one man wished someone had told him about it. This isn’t about what a man wished he was told about women’s books, magazines, sex toys. This is about porn. Why is it so hard for you to talk about this specific to men and porn use? Does this mean I think everything that goes on in the female world is perfect? No. But please, lets not use that conversation to distract from the one that should actually be talked about here in direct relation to what this article is actually about….again…which is pornography and what one man wished someone had told him.

            • “With the rampant availability of porn on the internet, many men can just masturbate to porn and not have to worry about “getting it up” or pleasing a woman.”

              How is that a bad thing? Have you considered that many men (and women) find virtual sex more fun and satisfying than the parade of angry, selfish, and hateful potential ‘partners’ they’ve encountered in real life?

              Frankly, if some women are angry about men turning to porn, maybe they should be asking why porn is preferable to their company.

            • It’s my personal belief that being able to relate to other people makes one a more well rounded person. I know that I have had to develop a lot of growth along the way in learning how to relate to men. It hasn’t been easy. There has been a lot of pain and tears and hard times. But I also know that I have become more caring and a better partner in learning about how to give my partner what he may need that might be seperate from myself. I don’t think I would be a better person if I turned to books or other mediums to live out what I may want while never developing the skills that would help me give another person what they also may want. I also discovered that I liked being able to contribute to a man’s life by meeting his needs, not just mine.

  9. Roger, if porn isn’t fundamentally disrespectful toward women, why would you have to “keep searching until you find something ethical”? Why is it so hard to find porn that actually doesn’t disrespect women? Why do so many of the titles call women disrespectful names or categorize women specifically in ways that it doesn’t categorize men? Why does so much of the material show men jack-hammering women like they are nothing but a walking orifice? If porn isn’t fundamentally disrespectful to women, then how are we defining what is disrespectful to women? That is the real question I would like to know. If how women are depicted in porn isn’t disrespectful, if calling women names and fantasizing about doing your children’s babysitters behind your wife’s back isn’t disrespectful toward women, what is?
    And if porn isn’t disrespectful to women, then perhaps all those TV shows that show men as the bumbling, incompetent father, isn’t disrespectful to men.

    I certainly don’t think that if a man likes porn, that means he hates women. However, I also don’t think the fact that he watches porn means he likes them either.

    I do think the porn industry itself does hate women. And frankly, I am so overwhelmingly defeated on this topic. I have seen the way the conversation on porn has changed. It use to be that men only looked at it once-in-while. Now it doesn’t seem that’s the case anymore.

    I think porn needs to be talked about with young men AND young women. Unfortunately, no one ever thinks to talk to young girls about it. What do you even say to young girls about porn? How do you tell or show a young girl that porn isn’t about her disrespect? Porn simply doesn’t treat men like it treats women. As a woman, it is so painful sometimes to see the way the porn industry treats and showcases women. I just don’t think men get it. And I am loosing faith that men want to get it when they get so much pleasure from porn itself.

    I also think this piece airs a little too much on the politically correct side. Porn isn’t politically correct. Porn isn’t pretty and it’s not equal. It’s often about women being subjected to the whims of what men want to seen done to women while the woman in the movie acts like it’s the best thing that ever happened to her. While there is porn that might showcase men in the reverse role, the majority of porn out there is about making women the object of his gratification. Not for her own real pleasure but for her fake pleasure to his real pleasure.

    Can we stop with the pc talk and talk about the subject and call porn for what it is? Because until we do that, we aren’t going to get down to the nitty gritty reality of the industry and of how people’s sexuality and lives have been shaped through their porn use. And if we tell ourselves only young boys are influenced by it, then we are doing a big disservice to all the men and women out there that are way past the age of their teens years but later developed their own issues with porn. Porn re-wires your brain. That’s not just something that happens in young people. It happens in anyone with any long withstanding habit. And clearly porn has become a long withstanding habit for many.

    • So Erin, then I presume you’re against all forms of chic lit porn that lights up women’s dopamine centers (in precisely the similar way that men’s do with visual porn) which portray men as being unrealistic as well? You on a crusade there too? Something tells men no. And ALL things “re-wire” the brain — having sex with different people “re-wires” the brain as well (particularly against monogamy, which is more pronounced in women) — any qualms about telling men and, yes, women, that they shouldn’t be doing that either? Something once again tells me no.

      Clever spiel, but ultimately baseless feminist dogma — porn doesn’t disrespect women any more than Christian Grey and his large you know what disrespects the average male. It’s a fantasy, and the women acting out their roles (some of whom actually enjoy their profession) do it voluntarily, and often are far more financially secure than the average person. Accept both, or accept neither.

      • Guess what A? I understand your concerns about “chic lit porn”. Believe me, I am no fan of 50 Shades of Grey. I think it’s foolish to be honest. I have seen “news” reports on TV about the popularity of the book where couples were interviewed and the woman gushed over the insipid book and the insipid character “Christen Grey”. I thought the entire thing extremely foolish. I felt sorry for the guys sitting next to their female partner that gushed over some one-dimensional lame character in Christian Grey. Don’t assume that all women like “chic lit porn”. Don’t assume that all women don’t find that kind of material mind numbing, bane, atrocious………

        But this article was written by a man about the 10 things he wished he was told about porn. It was not an article written about the 10 things he wished he was told about “chic lit porn”. If you want to have a discussion about the sexual material or literature that women use, lets have it. Write a piece on it. Send it in to GMP. I will be there with bells on. I will tell you what I find troubling about chic lit porn and I will tell you the ways chic lit porn seems to differ from male porn. But this is *not* what this piece is about. And any pointing to other topics (even if just as important) doesn’t help the conversation here. This article was about pornography men use.

        You recognize the “cleverness” in my points. Yet you purposely ignore addressing them specific to men and the porn they use. that’s not fair. And that doesn’t make for a good discussion regarding this issue. Try talking about the actual subject. Which is porn and the 10 things Roger wished someone had told about as a man who uses porn. Can we please have a sincere discussion about that? Can you please directly address the issues and ideas I presented in it’s relevancy to the actual topic?

    • Quit watching bad porn then. If you can’t find the mass of decent porn out there then seriously, wtf are your searching for? Why is it so easy for me to find lots of videos that don’t degrade women? The closest is the bad titles on some but part of that is a stupid version of dirty talk I ignore. There are plenty that are simply “Hot woman masturbates” “sexy couple fucks” etc that are good.

      “Can we stop with the pc talk and talk about the subject and call porn for what it is? ”
      We are, countless people are talking about it but you are choosing to ignore the vast amount of good porn so you can paint it as harmful to women, dirty, degrading.

      “I also think this piece airs a little too much on the politically correct side. Porn isn’t politically correct. Porn isn’t pretty and it’s not equal. It’s often about women being subjected to the whims of what men want to seen done to women while the woman in the movie acts like it’s the best thing that ever happened to her. While there is porn that might showcase men in the reverse role, the majority of porn out there is about making women the object of his gratification. Not for her own real pleasure but for her fake pleasure to his real pleasure. ”
      Because for so long porn was mostly for men but many companies are realizing a lot of women are now looking at porn and are producing content for women, made by women.

      Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater? Celebrate the good porn, hate the bad porn, but don’t act like it’s so far gone that it can never be recovered. Not everyone is harmed by porn in the ways you claim, yes porn can be addictive but not for everyone.

    • Erin, you are inadvertently making my earlier point for me–you’re assuming that YOUR personal interpretation of porn is the correct one. You’re saying that YOU understand what the appeal of porn is for men, even as real-life, honest-to-goodness actual Y-chromosome men are you telling you otherwise.

      Do you think we’re all lying? or do you think there can be more than one way to look at this issue?

      • I think men love porn because porn doesn’t treat men the same way it treats women. You simply don’t see men put down to nearly the degree you see women put down. You simply don’t see men forced to do positions or acts that hurt them physically or make them have painfilled faces as much as you do with women in porn. You don’t see men called the level and amount of degrading names that get thrown at women regularly. Yes, porn very well may exsist that does just that to me. But it is not the majority and I know it’s not the majority of what the average guy is most likely watching. What the average guy is most likely watching is the stuff that is already mostly out there.

        I think it’s hard for men to seperate themselves from porn because men have identified with it for so long in regards to their sexuality. In most cases, since they were around the age of 10 or 11 or whenever they first saw porn. You don’t start looking at something that young and remain unchanged by it. That’s simply the reality.

        I think porn is an easy issue for men because the fact is that you don’t see nearly the same name calling or objectifcation of men in porn as you do with women. There is a reason men that look like Ron Jeremey can have successful careers in porn and a reason you have to look like Jenna Jaminson to have a successful career in porn. There is a reason that there is no woman with Ron Jeremey’s same looks that has acheived that level of success. t The average guy wants to believe he can be with the young beautiful goregous woman. The average guy seeks to have sexual dominance over women..specially young women. And the rest of women that don’t fit into what men want the most? Who cares about them right? They merely become “fetishes”. Just something “different” to look at because sometimes the same old porn gets boring. They are just “add ons”. Not worthy of anything really.

        What I have experienced is that a lot of men want to ignore the messages they indirectly send to women through the porn use. And a lot of the messages women get from men, based on what they like about porn, it sometimes is really painful and hard to take. It seems like all men really want to do is humilate wome nsometimes and make them secondary under them and that of coures, all guys want to bang 18-25 year olds girls. But if you as a woman think those things suck, men will tell you how horrible you are. Well sorry. But I don’t think it’s great that certain ideals are exemplied in porn. And I am sick and tired of whenever I bring this up, all certain people can say in response is “what about granny porn!” “what about milf porn!” ….what about it? Why is it so favorable that women are made into fetishes based on their age? How many men honestly believe that “granny” or “milf” (which doesn’t even seem to really show older women in it even) outshines the exsistance of how much youth and beauty in women is fetishezied through porn? How do you expect women to deal with these issues ? Think men are great when they make a woman’s worth dependent on her age or breast size? Smile that men apparently need so many different visuals of different women to be satisfied enough with themselves? How do you think it makes women feel that men need all these outrages visuals of so many different women? But I guess that’s what men need and that’s ultimately what is most important. It’s okay to treat women a certain way because men like it. That’s the message porn gives.

        • There is a reason men that look like Ron Jeremey can have successful careers in porn and a reason you have to look like Jenna Jaminson to have a successful career in porn.

          Erin, before the viagra era, Ron was one of the few men that;
          1. had a nine inch plus penis [from memory, about one in a thousand men have a penis that long]. a longer penis make penetration easier to film

          2. and more importantly he could get erect on command, and infront of a film crew[most men can not do either]. A porn actor who can not get hard at will delays filming, and that costs money as the film crew still have to be paid.

          Other average looking porn actors might have been less well endowed, however they too had that rare skill of being able to get hard at will and perform in a sterile filmset setting. A man with model male face and body is no good for porn purposes, if he cant get hard instantly when needed, and gets floppy infront of the working film crew

          • James, come on now, do you really believe those are the only reasons Ron because so successful vs someone like Jenna? I don’t think it’s any big secret that standards for women in porn are a big harder then standards for men.

            Do you really think they put a man like Ron in porn because they thought he would draw women in with his huge penis? I think they did it because he appeals to guys that aren’t that good looking themselves and they can watch this guy sleep with young hot babes. How many women in porn do you know that have large breasts, that have achieved his popularity and look like the female version of him?

            You make it sound like the reason standards are so low for men in porn and so high for women is simply a matter of his penis. I think the reason standards are so low for men and so high for women is because men want to see highly beautiful women that they can pretend want them, an average/regular or even ugly guy. Men like the idea that some old, fat gross dude can sleep with young beautiful women. Because a lot of guys that watch porn come in all different shapes and sizes themselves but they mostly are probably still attracted to the stereotypical ideal of the porn star: thin, white, young, big breasts. And other women? They become nothing but fetishes.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Erin, are you really ignoring that Ron Jeremy is an outlier in the type of men usually cast in mainstream porn flicks? Sure, he can be the “everyman” hero but by and large most of the male porn actors I’ve seen on the covers of videos have been tattooed, muscle-bound guys. (nb: I’ve never seen a porn film starring Jeremy, so I’m going solely by other’s descriptions of him and the cameos he’s done in mainstream films.)

              I’ve recently read two interviews with male porn stars that appear to be outside of the mold in a different way. James Deen and Manuel Ferarra appear to be popular particularly among women, and from the interviews (haven’t seen flicks with them either) it appears to be because they are actually into the women they work with. Deen apparently has a sizable teenage girl following – not sure what to make of that.

              All of which is to say, not all porn is the same, nor are all motivations for watching porn the same. I bet you’d get a lot more takers if your position was simply, “misogynist porn is disgusting.” I for one would agree. Likewise if your position was, “don’t neglect your partner for porn, or bring expectations from porn into your bedroom” you’d have ready agreement from me. But to make sweeping generalizations about what porn is, and why people use it, leads to more disagreement than agreement, more staking out territory rather than finding common ground. I don’t presume to know whether or not this is your intent, I only comment on how it appears from way over here.

            • Actually, Archy and Erin, the trope of an conventionally unattractive man getting with the ‘hot chick’ seems much more common in mainstream media than in porn, so it’s not porn’s fault. Any commercial targeted towards men, coming of age movies, many animes, comedies, etc. It’s sweet, Archy, that you talk about all sorts of people finding love together. But you said that you’re only attracted to 5% of women (as you’ve stated), and your description of them is pretty conventional (young, thin, petite, small breasts). And before you say small breasts are not conventional, take a look at the hottest stars today. A- low C cups are the standard. You also have described yourself as conventionally unattractive and heavy . It just seems like you’re saying, “yay, all types of people get to find loving, sexual partners…but I’m not conventionally attractive but I only want a conventionally attractive woman.” I’m sorry if it seems like I’m getting on your case, as I do find you to have a lot of very interesting things to say, I just hope you understand what I’m saying.

            • When did I say I was only attracted to 5% of women???? It sounds like you haven’t got a fucking clue what I am saying, but hey, it appears none of the women here really do listen to anything I say but simply make judgments about what I say without bothering to read. I am MOST attracted to women my age + or – 5-10 years, petite bodies and smaller breasts, I am still attracted quite a lot to women who aren’t petite or have larger breasts, the petite women are simply my 10 and others are a 9 on the scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the “damn you’re fine”. I am unconventionally heavy, but I DON’T want to be forced to date people my size, I want the opportunity to date a wide range of people, whoever I feel attraction too. Too often I heard that fat people had to date fat people only, white with white, ugly with ugly, etc, I found it extremely limited and the diversity of relationships I saw both in amateur porn (actual couples) but also real life made me realize that love comes for all shapes n sizes.

              God, do you ladies assume men only find one type of woman attractive and everyone else is ugly?? Are you that out of touch with men and so disconnected from reality? Just because people have a “most beautiful” type of women doesn’t mean every other women is ugly, all it means is that some women are knockouts and others are stunning. The woman I like atm, yes she is petite but her looks aren’t all that conventional, I have friends who are younger, more beautiful (a few are models) but I have more attraction to this woman who is about 10 years older than I am, married with kids (sadly:P, but I’m glad she has happiness), has a heart of gold and a personality to match. Looks are just a starting ground.

            • I’ve said I’m not really attracted to the majority of pro porn stars, did you mean that? I don’t find the over-tanned skin (as in not a natural tan like some people have) or fake breasts really appealing. Looks get my initial attention, personality is what wins me over the most, I have quite a few beautiful female friends that I am not really attracted to like I am with a crush for instance, looks alone doesn’t make me get butterflies in my stomach, think of them a lot, etc.

            • Aya, I am not saying it’s porn’s fault. I think it’s common in both industries. I think that mainstream media certainlly appeals to the desire for the average/below average looking guy getting the beauty queen as much as porn does. But I don’t think that it exists in porn only because of mainstream media. I think it exists because a lot of entertainment and CEOs that make those choices, on both a mainstream scale and adult industry scale, are largely men that want to largely appeal to other men.

              Men want to believe someone like Ron can sleep with young hot babes and not women his own age with his own looks because men that look like Ron want to sleep with young hot babes. This says something important.

              But either way, it tells us something about men and the way they tie their own worth to how attractive their partner is.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              I think it’s common in both industries. I think that mainstream media certainlly appeals to the desire for the average/below average looking guy getting the beauty queen as much as porn does.

              I think you must not come into contact with a lot of porn. The guys in most porn videos are far from your average schlub – they represent an ideal that men can’t even reach with surgery: very muscular with abnormally large cocks. That’s why we notice people like James Deen, he doesn’t fit the gym rat mold – although I presume him to have a large cock, are there porn stars that don’t?

              On the other hand, most of the guys in sitcoms are unattractive, often overweight, and married to a very hot wife. If I had to guess, I’d imagine Ray Romano gives more hope of scoring the hot wife than does Ron Jeremy.

            • Like I asked before, several times, and each time it’s been thus ignored by the guys here as far as I can tell so far, why is there no woman in porn, that has reached the level of fame Ron J. has that is equal to his looks? Even if she had really big breasts?

              We disagree about what kind of men dominate the industry phyiscally. I also have no idea what you meant by “they represent an ideal that men can’t even reach with surgery”…men in porn don’t have to live up to the standards pf physical attractiveness that women do in porn. Men do not have to get plastic surgery to the extent women in porn do. Men don’t get plastic surgery to the extent women do in porn. Porn is not made for women for the most part. It is made for men.

              Ray Romano is not a bad looking guy. I actually think he is equal in looks to his wife in that show. I wouldn’t say his wife was so much hotter than him.

              I repeat once again, what woman in porn exists that has reached the same level of popularity someone like Ron has that is his equal in looks? Perhaps she has really big breasts or a butt just like Ron has a really big penis. I don’t know. But what woman do you know of that looks anything close to Ron, that is popular in porn?

            • Nick, mostly says:

              We disagree about what kind of men dominate the industry phyiscally. I also have no idea what you meant by “they represent an ideal that men can’t even reach with surgery”

              When I stumble across commercial porn, the male actors are almost exclusively:
              1) Ripped
              2) Generously endowed
              As far as I know, there is no surgery that can give a man a ripped physique or add three inches to his penis. So the prevalent image of men in porn is an unattainable ideal. It appears that for women what’s necessary is being skinny and perhaps dropping $7-10k on implants – expensive, but not unattainable. That was the distinction I was making.

              I’ve already agreed with you that there are no female Ron Jeremy’s in porn, aside from particular niche genres (such as BBW). At the same time, I’m not entirely sure what your point is. If most of the guys in porn looked like Ron Jeremy that would be one thing; but Ron Jeremy is the exception and not the norm. Do you know of any other guys that are like Ron Jeremy in porn? If they’re so prevalent, surely you must have a handful of examples at the ready. Or perhaps a Google search might turn up a few names. I’m usually very adept at searching for things, but I keep coming up short when I look for them.

            • Ron Jeremy was quite a hunk when he started out, I dunno why you think he is so ugly. Jenna Jamison is the closest that I can think of, but surgery to enhance her attributes exists, surgery for men is quite limited. He has a penis that very very very very very few men have, men in porn are just as limited as women are in pro porn. For the pro industry men usually have to be ripped, which already limits to what, 5-10% of population, and then also have a NATURALLY large penis.

              “Ray Romano is not a bad looking guy. I actually think he is equal in looks to his wife in that show. I wouldn’t say his wife was so much hotter than him. ”
              Oh, so Ray is equal to her, but Ron is somehow ugly? Have you seen Ron Jeremy when he started out? Do you think if he had a 6 inch cock he’d be popular? Hell many porn stars I’ve seen I think are pretty meh, Jenna Jamison doesn’t look all that hot really, but apparently she has to be top-shelf beauty material to be in porn.

            • We completely disagree about the kind of men that crop up in porn. I am not saying that there are no “ripped” men in porn. I am saying that porn does not put the same level of credentials on men that it does women. Lets look at this logically:

              – Porn is made *mostly* for men
              – Most porn focuses on the female’s body and looks
              – Porn is hugely adapted to fit male fantasy first, it doesn’t leave a lot of room open to female fantasy.

              I don’t know a lot of people that largely disagree with me on these points. Sure, there is porn made for women, sure there is porn with bigger women, either way, this does not change the foundation of porn and who is being most catered to and why such an atrocious amount of imbalance exists in a media that men largely dominate, even in their depictions and wishes to see women act and treated.

              Knowing these things, how could one deny the imbalance in representation of power. Now I know that all the men here today reading this article only look at very sweet love making porn that is 100% egalitarian and is so happy and light hearted and the women come in all shapes and sizes and ages and colors. I know that all you guys reading this only like seeing happy good things and that you don’t watch 18 year old pornstar with implants. You’re watching real women…from 20 to 50 right? ANd the women you watch most are women your own age right? Not younger? Because porn is all egalitarian right? This is the point that gets made over and over again right? That no one here likes any kind of stereotypical porn and you all give women an equal opportunity and you just want to see happy women having sex because you want these women to have so many orgasms……..regardless, these truths still exist about the porn industry outside what the guys here may watch.

              But guess what? Working out and getting ripped isn’t unattainable either. Heck, I don’t even think guys in porn have to be anything close to ripped. You make it sound like undergoing surgery for something like breast implants is easy. All women have to do to be in porn is be skinny and drop money on implants? False.

              Getting implants isn’t even “easy”. On top of implants, there is a lot more plastic surgery women are getting to fit the commercial ideal that has become popular to men to fit the image and fantasy men most desires. This includes nose jobs, nips and tucks, chin jobs, cheeks, butts, vaginas…anything you can think of. The thing is, usually only breasts are talked. It’s much harder to tell butt implants from breast implants for whatever reason. And the girl’s previous noses or other shape of her body? Forget it. As for being skinny, what you think all women are naturally skinny? You think a lot of women in porn aren’t also hitting the gym? Maybe they aren’t displaying ripped muscles but you think their gym work outs are easier? Being a woman that has always had to work on my weight I can tell you that for a lot of women, it is not easy to remain the ideal type of “skinny” that men currently like today. I can tell you that there was a time I was working out hard and skipping meals and I was at my skinniest and men liked me more then when I was eating healthy meals and working out moderately. I know that I am not the only woman with this struggle by far. You think eating disorders in porn aren’t all over the place? Come on.

              That doesn’t even touch on the huge amount of ageism that is often in porn. Young women are best right? Now I know all the men here look at all kinds of women with all kinds of bodies and ages, but in the porn world, young women are best no matter what a guys age is. What message do you think this reinforces? Or maybe the message it reinforces simply doesn’t matter because what matters is men need to get off to certain things and real women be damned.

              So don’t say things like “all a woman has to do is drop money on implants and be skinny” and it’s so easy for her. That is so not true. The fact remains that porn is made for men. The fact remains that the woman is usually the object that is focused on. The fact remains that porn is highly competitive for women more so then men because of the sheer volume and appetite men have to see something “new”. Lets stop acting like porn is this wonderful celebration of female sexuality. Porn is a celebration of what men want female sexuality and looks to be. Not who women really are.

              The reason a woman never became as popular as someone like Ron Jeremy, with his looks, even if she had really big breasts in comparison to his big johnson, is because there is a higher pressure for women in porn. Because the way women are represented in porn is so out of balance and heavily dominated by what men want most and first. There is no real room for anything important about women in it.

              And no, surgery for men is not quite limited. Surgery for men is less expected because men are not expected to jump through the hoops women are when it comes to looks. Men can get lots of surgery. They can get penile implants..difficult yet, but it can be done. They can get cheek implants, butt implants, shoulder implants, pec implants, calf implants…there are lots of things men can do, just like women, to manipulate their bodies. But standards for men to conform to such things are not as costly as they are for women.

              Here are some interesting quotes from Tyler Knight – a male pornstar in the business:

              “Looks. The more universal appeal, the greater the potential a woman has to sustain a career. Simple. Be white, blonde, young enough to pass for a goddamn child (teen market)and depending on the trend, open to adding or removing physical enhancements. (Now there’s a surge in ass implants.)
              So, assuming you are not ham-stringed by your appearance, here’s the plan some girls follow, believing it will lead to career longevity.
              1) Dike out: Do girl/girl and solo girl scenes first.
              2) Chug cock: When work slows down for girl/girl, add blowjob scenes.
              3) Get fucked: Then comes boy/girl sex scenes (white men only for now).
              *All the above should be in the teen market, IE: “My First Blowjob”, “Tricked Teens/ Teens 4 Cash” or “Babysitter” titles and shit like that. If you look illegal, you will not be able to stop working. Milk this as long as you can.
              4) Get Fucked in the ass: Eventually the studios, in the constant search for “new pussy”, will cool on you. This is when you do anal scenes.
              *Get a website. Supplement income by shooting and owning your own content. You will not get rich because people will steal your content, but it will offset the loss of income that is on the horizon. Do “privates” on the down low for high-end clientèle that pay $10,000 to fuck you.
              5) You will get very old (27), so the MILF scenes will come. You stave off the loss of income (no one will pay you the high per-scene rate you used to command anymore) by feature dancing at strip clubs. Good money, and if you are smart you would save your chips from this point forward.”
              Tyler Knight

              Now doesn’t that sound like a nice industry toward women? THe appeal of white or teen girls most? Breast and butt plants are plenty? And your old by the time you hit 27? You think men are old by the time they hit 27 in porn? No I don’t think so.

              Let me know if you want me to find more direct quote from people in the industry that talk about how it is for women. I can produce them.

              You know, I was disappointed with the whole porn thing even 10 years ago. But the sheer volume of porn today and the way men embrace it has just brought on a new level of discouragment concerning men for me specifically. I suspect that men will only continue to look at more and more porn. Since that has so far been the general history. Porn is much more a part of a lot of people’s lives. It’s much more accepted. Even by women as well today. But I don’t think this is healthy. I don’t see better sexuality. I don’t see better men for it or better women for it. What I see is a lot of people that have let porn become a big part of their life. And there is something really sad about it all.

            • You do realize when the men are talking about egalitarian porn here they’re talking pretty much about amateur made content, or a few new studios? No one is disagreeing the a lot of PRO industry porn is bad, but that isn’t all porn is. Infact I’d bet the majority of porn being produced today is sexting, but more then 90% of that isn’t being shared online. It’s still porn, and that’s often quite egalitarian in nature, just 2 lovers turning each other on.

              This is what you don’t seem to grasp Erin, pro porn is largely negative, I agree, but pro porn isn’t the only porn in existence and most of the defenders of porn I see talking here are defending GOOD amateur porn, or egalitarian stuff, which isn’t the majority of the pro stuff.

              I truly wouldn’t care if the paid/pro porn industry disappeared tomorrow, I’ll hit the delete button myself, what I don’t want to see is amateur content disappearing. It’s a part of peoples lives, but it doesn’t have to be a bad part. This is why I suggest people making amateur porn even more popular, which seems to be happening, and sticking to the good stuff n boycotting the rest.

              “I don’t see better men for it or better women for it. What I see is a lot of people that have let porn become a big part of their life. And there is something really sad about it all.”
              I don’t think it’s really that big a part in peoples lives really, do you really think porn has that large of an influence over sexuality? is it making people do stuff, or is it simply giving them ideas to try? Are these women speaking up when they don’t want to try this stuff or telling the men that the position changes aren’t working or are they staying silent? Why is it such a huge issue? To me it sounds like a spectacular failure of communication between the couple if this happens so often, if the men aren’t listening then don’t have sex with them n find a man who is willing to listen.

              When Aya talks about men forcing her to deepthroat, I consider that shit rape, or close to it, it’s a serious breach of trust and I hate when people do that. It’s something that should be talked about in sex ed but good luck at that ever happening in a society with so many puritans, they’d scream bloody murder if lil Johnny n Julie came home talking about deepthroats. Maybe that porn needs a disclaimer “These activities should only be undertaken after serious communication with your partner”.

              “I suspect that men will only continue to look at more and more porn.”
              Nah, I don’t think so. I think it’ll reach a peak. The stuff does get boring you know, there are times I go a week without it, just depends how busy my life is. If I had a partner I doubt I’d be looking at it at all unless god forbid we don’t have sex for a year, but I wouldn’t be sticking around unless there’s a damn good reason for that (injury/illness/childbirth). There’s only so much you can really take in of porn anyway, once a day is probably the peak unless you’re completely bored and horny as hell whilst single.

            • Nick, how much of an “outlier” could Ron Jeremy be? He is a household name. I know kids who know who he is. He has wide appeal and is very well known both inside and outside the industry.

              Again, tell me of a female porn actress that has reached his level of fame that looks anything close to what Ron Jeremy looks like, who got by just because she had fantasitcally big *real* breasts? There isn’t such a woman that exists! Because standards for the way women look are higher then standards for the way men look. To the extent that women get plastic surgery to be more of the fantasy and are required too then men ever are or will be. And frankly, I am so sick of hearing guys say “well I don’t expect a real woman to look like that.” No, I guess he doesn’t but he sure enjoys the way it looks on screen nonetheless. Why is his expectations of him not expecting a “real woman” to look like that suppose to be comforting?

              They don’t put the men in porn for women. Unless it’s specific porn specifically tailored for women. Which is still a limited segment of the industry and it will be a sad day if it ever reaches the extent of porn that men already have. Because hey, then women and men can just fantasize their lives away and hook-up with their partners when their internet connects run down.

              But today, most porn still isn’t made for women.

              If someone like James Deen has a large teenage girl following (although I’d like to see some numbers!) then I think that shows how easily young girls are also sucbseptble to letting their sexuality evolve from porn. Do we really want young girls to have a sexuality that evolved from porn anymore then we want young guys too? Especially when the majority of porn comes for a highly masculine form of fantasy first? Lets be honest, porn isn’t egalitarian.

              It is very easy for people to blow off the importance porn in the conversation with people pleasing comments like “misogynists porn is disgusting”. Misogynist porn IS disgusting but I believe most porn is more misogynistic then not. If I believe that, why shouldn’t I express that? You think it’s a generalization to express that? I think it’s a generalization to simply say “misogynistic porn is digusting”. That’s a pretty general, broad, undefined comment. I don’t understand why I am not allowed to say that I think most porn is degrading to women if that is really what I believe is true. Most porn doesn’t exactly showcase women very positively.

              I also would never say something like, “don’t neglect your partner for porn, or bring expectations from porn into your bedroom” because I think there are TONS of men out there already doing just that that probably don’t believe they are. I also think there are even more men that are bringing what they see into the bedroom. Realistically, how couldn’t they? Of course men are bringing that stuff in the bedroom. They bring it in when they ask their partner to dress up or be more like something they saw in porn. You wouldn’t believe how many men have these kind of requests. Today it seems like a lot of men don’t even know how to have sex anymore without the aid of porn to tell them how to do it. They bring it in the bedroom when they are with their partner and ask her to “watch it with him”. They bring it in the bedroom when he is having sex with his partner and a sexy clip from a porn he saw flashes in his mind’s eye. Lets stop lying to ourselves and claiming that people aren’t bringing porn into the bedroom.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Nick, how much of an “outlier” could Ron Jeremy be? He is a household name. I know kids who know who he is. He has wide appeal and is very well known both inside and outside the industry.

              By outlier I mean he is not a representative sample of the men in porn. You don’t see a lot of short, fat guys in porn videos; there’s Ron Jeremy and then there’s, well, I can think of anyone else.

              And frankly, I am so sick of hearing guys say “well I don’t expect a real woman to look like that.” No, I guess he doesn’t but he sure enjoys the way it looks on screen nonetheless.

              Some of those guys may be saying that that type of artificial body doesn’t do anything for them. Some guys may be lying altogether, trying only to appease their partner’s insecurity. I can only speak for myself, and what I’ll say it that I don’t even like makeup. Also, at my age I’ve learned a woman’s comfort in her own body is far more important than how close to the ideal her body looks. It’s not even close.

              It is very easy for people to blow off the importance porn in the conversation with people pleasing comments like “misogynists porn is disgusting”. Misogynist porn IS disgusting but I believe most porn is more misogynistic then not. If I believe that, why shouldn’t I express that? You think it’s a generalization to express that? I think it’s a generalization to simply say “misogynistic porn is digusting”. That’s a pretty general, broad, undefined comment. I don’t understand why I am not allowed to say that I think most porn is degrading to women if that is really what I believe is true. Most porn doesn’t exactly showcase women very positively.

              My point is to say I agree with you that misogynistic porn is disgusting, but I don’t believe most porn to be misogynistic, therefore I don’t believe most porn is disgusting. I also think that type of statement is different than what you made: one is a categorical statement, the other qualitative. Can you think of an example of misogynistic porn that isn’t disgusting? And clearly you know I have no control over what you say (nor would I want it); you’re allowed to say what you want, I was only pointing out where I disagreed with you and why.

            • You said: “By outlier I mean he is not a representative sample of the men in porn. You don’t see a lot of short, fat guys in porn videos; there’s Ron Jeremy and then there’s, well, I can think of anyone else.”

              I am sorry but I hugely disagree that you don’t infact see short, fat, old guys all the time in porn usually having sex with beautiful young women. There is a lot more yielding to men in porn then there is women. Why one may ask? Because people who make porn make it mostely for men. And men largely want to believe that they can look any which way, old, short of fat, and not really have to be accomplished at anything in really understanding women to get beautiful young women to have sex with them. Stressing on the “beautiful young women” part because that is largely what the industry is compromised of over any “fetish” catagory you could come up with.

              Again, even “if” Ron J. Isn’t typical, is there any woman that has reached his level of popularity that looks like the female version of him?

              You said: “Some of those guys may be saying that that type of artificial body doesn’t do anything for them. Some guys may be lying altogether, trying only to appease their partner’s insecurity. I can only speak for myself, and what I’ll say it that I don’t even like makeup. Also, at my age I’ve learned a woman’s comfort in her own body is far more important than how close to the ideal her body looks. It’s not even close.”

              I don’t understand how this addresses the comment you quoted me for saying. A very standard response from men regarding pornography is, “I don’t expect a real woman to look like that.” But he does enjoy the way women look in porn. So I am not sure why a woman should feel “comforted/better” that he doesn’t expect her to look like that even as he enjoys that same look visually through porn. How is it suppose to make her feel better that he has these ideals about women and their sexuality through porn but she is suppose to be confident in her own body and sexuality with him even as he, in his off times, revels in a very masculine fantasy world that actually leaves very little oppurtunity for women to have a real say in how women are depicted.

              You said: “My point is to say I agree with you that misogynistic porn is disgusting, but I don’t believe most porn to be misogynistic, therefore I don’t believe most porn is disgusting. I also think that type of statement is different than what you made: one is a categorical statement, the other qualitative. Can you think of an example of misogynistic porn that isn’t disgusting? And clearly you know I have no control over what you say (nor would I want it); you’re allowed to say what you want, I was only pointing out where I disagreed with you and why.”

              Well Nick, we can walk around saying “hunger is awful” but it doesn’t really fix the root of the problem. We can also walk around saying, “hunger is awful but there are people over here that aren’t hungry so the problem isn’t that bad.” But again, it doesn’t get to the root of the problem. It sure does seem like most porn is degrading to women more times then not. If it’s not calling women names (SOOOOO Much porn does this), then it’s catagorizing women based on anything from their race to their body parts. If it’s not showing women having heavily abusive acts done to them, then it’s most likely stereotyping female sexuality into a narrow ideal men want to be true vs what is really true for real female sexuality.

              I get it. You don’t think most porn is degrading toward women. But I don’t really know any man that believes porn is exactly egalitarian toward women either. There is no room in porn for anything truly feminine. Because the model of woman that is used in porn is one that looks hyper feminine but expresses a more stereotypical hyper-masculine sexuality. Porn isn’t about men wanting to see women be more like themselves. It’s about wanting to see women behave more like men sexually while being an extreme version of femininity. And as a woman, to me, that seems pretty degrading to everything real women are and can be.

              I really don’t think men understand what it’s like for women to see porn and see the way women are often treated and represented in it and just how degrading it is to who women really are. And frankly, I don’t really think a lot of men really care about how women are represented or treated or how their sexuality is shown in porn because it fits into their fantasy.

              And as a woman, what are you suppose to do? You are expected to accept that some days he wants you and some days he wants to watch twin 18 year old sisters give oral to some man that is most likely pushing his penis so far down their throats it’s not even very pleasurable for them but they sure will moan and coo like it is. As a woman, you are expected to be this uber confident being in your sexuality even though men are pretty much rejecting real female sexuality in porn in favor of a more hyper-masculine fantasy ideal. As a woman, you are supppose to ignore the words women are called that mix their sexuality up in shame and excitment at the same time. You are suppose to ignore the ideals that men are seeking or how some days he wants big breasts and the other days he wants little breats and that’s suppose to be a positive that he is treating women like a buffet of treats. Right.

            • “You are suppose to ignore the ideals that men are seeking or how some days he wants big breasts and the other days he wants little breats and that’s suppose to be a positive that he is treating women like a buffet of treats.”
              You’re supposed to look at the same body type, same person every single day for your life, you heard it guys. Never watch a single bit of entertainment that is new, and girls, don’t look at porn, don’t look at romance because your partner may get upset. As a woman, you’re not supposed to do anything. Some women watch it themselves, infact A LOT of women watch porn.

              “As a woman, you are expected to be this uber confident being in your sexuality even though men are pretty much rejecting real female sexuality in porn in favor of a more hyper-masculine fantasy ideal.”
              How large is your broom? The broad sweeping generalizations you make of porn are incredible. Seriously, incredible. Do you even watch porn regularly? If you do look at porn, do you look at the same shit over n over? You are one of the most disconnected from males people I’ve ever met, not only do you routintely ignore what men here are telling you about their porn, you actually have the arrogance to TELL men what they are thinking and then being hurt by what you think men are thinking. Your insecurities, your misreading of men is hurting you over n over with porn, you’re completely missing the mark.

              You see is at a buffet of treats yet humans do this in real life all the time, they find a wide range of people attractive. In one sentence you bemoan the shallow and narrow view of what is attractive in porn, and then in another you actively try to shame men for looking at a wider range. It’s almost like you’re trying to commit some form of emotional manipulation here.

              “You are expected to accept that some days he wants you and some days he wants to watch twin 18 year old sisters give oral to some man that is most likely pushing his penis so far down their throats it’s not even very pleasurable for them but they sure will moan and coo like it is.”
              Says who? Do you think no woman enjoys deepthroat? Or is it because you wouldn’t enjoy it that you are now applying the standard of good sex for you, as the standard for all women? And who says the porn he watchs involves deepthroat? You have an extremely shallow view of what porn is Erin, seriously. Do you honestly think every male is looking at the same shit?

              The first thing you need to do if anything is find out what porn he watchs, then ASK HIM why he likes it without being judgmental. He might actually open up and say why, it’s most likely something that isn’t bad compared to what you have worked yourself up into a ball of anxiety fearing. Zomg he thinks she’s hotter than me, he doesn’t want me anymore, he looks at porn, he must want to have gangbangs with coeds, I can’t look like them, should I dress more slutty for him? And a whole bunch of other insecurities without even asking him? Uh, hello, it’s quite possible to want something in fantasy but not want it in reality. I’ve had the fantasy of being in an orgy, but I have no interest of that in real life. The only thing a woman should do is stop assuming he wants everything he looks at in porn and actually communicate to him, ask him what he finds appealing. Working yourself up over his fantasy is a great way to hurt yourself especially if you don’t bother to find out why he likes it.

              And what’s with this whole focus on how bad it is for men to get tips from porn? Should men stick to missionary only? Does the man’s desires in bed matter at all? Is he allowed to feel enjoyment n pleasure, or is he meant to mold around WHAT SHE WANTS? Yes some men may find out how to try have sex from porn, might want to try a position from porn. I’ve seen positions in porn I’d like to try, I researched them online and apparently they help give the woman more pleasure which is a large part of why I want to try them. I still would have found out about it without porn.

              “And frankly, I don’t really think a lot of men really care about how women are represented or treated or how their sexuality is shown in porn because it fits into their fantasy. ”
              You realize this view borders on misandry right? How many men are we talking? I’ve noticed a major trend in how you speak which really does border on misandry a huge amount, you have a very very negative attitude towards men and porn and generalize badly about. I can understand why you have that view but is it really as bad as you make it sound? Do you speak about this with men you date or are you staying silent n trying to guess what he is thinking? It’s quite possible a lot of men are not thinking anything even remotely like how you think they are thinking. Things like degrading dirty talk will make me mute a video or change to another yet as a man in your view I apparently get off on it.

              Quite frankly I doubt you ever will truly understand why men look at porn, nor will you ever accept it. If you constantly ignore what men here are saying then you’re stuck in your ways and you really don’t want to learn about what men think. You’re too busy telling us how misogynistic we are, how we ignore female sexuality and just wanna see deepthroating (hey I can generalize too!) and telling us how bad porn is, without actually listening to the men who are telling you otherwise. What you say applies for quite a lot of porn yes, but there is a HELL of a lot of porn it doesn’t apply for. I very much get the feeling that nothing we can say will change your mind, that if we look at one type of porn, we’re shallow, if we look at a range of porn it means we are partaking in a buffet of women, there is no winning, it’s just men are dogs, women are innocent lil angels and we men degrade them constantly in porn. That sum it up? Or am I generalizing too much….

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Again, even “if” Ron J. Isn’t typical, is there any woman that has reached his level of popularity that looks like the female version of him?

              Aside from fetish porn (e.g. BBW and other genres) I would agree, there is no female version of Ron Jeremy. But Ron Jeremy seems to be unique. I did your Google test, and aside from Mr. Jeremy himself I didn’t see a short fat guy among the bunch. Excepting James Deen, all of the guys were fairly muscular, just as I recalled seeing on the video covers (back when there were still stores that sold porn DVDs).

              If it’s not calling women names (SOOOOO Much porn does this), then it’s catagorizing women based on anything from their race to their body parts.

              The latter is not unique to women. I would say the only two things that matter about men in porn are their race and cock size. If you’re black, you’re supposed to have an abnormally large cock to fulfill the little white girl’s Mandingo fantasy. Yet another reason why I find commercial porn nauseating.

              I get it. You don’t think most porn is degrading toward women.

              On the contrary. I think most commercial porn is degrading toward women, but also that there is a lot of non-commercial porn out there that isn’t. Rather than writing off porn categorically, I advise people be more selective about their porn, to look for products that are ethically produced. The link I posted to Uncommon Appetites is an example of what I’m talking about, and I am very hopeful that the MLNP site will catch on.

              And as a woman, what are you suppose to do? You are expected to accept that some days he wants you and some days he wants to watch twin 18 year old sisters give oral to some man that is most likely pushing his penis so far down their throats it’s not even very pleasurable for them but they sure will moan and coo like it is.

              I don’t think you should compete with fantasy; I think you should recognize it as such and accept it as no more real than centaur fantasies. I mean, the movie Deep Throat was all about this male fantasy that there exists some woman who can only be pleasured by deep oral. It’s not my fantasy, and I don’t think it’s at all realistic, but I’m not going to judge people on their fantasy lives. If a guy is trying to pressure his girlfriend into doing it to “live out” his fantasy I’d probably think differently.

              As for competing with the women in porn, I suppose that’s one way of looking at it. I think guys would have to go out of their way to find porn that didn’t include young, skinny, white females so I’m not sure how much a guy’s porn preferences speak to his desire for the way a particular woman looks. (I’d suspect the scenarios are more important than anything, but I’m not privy to how other men fantasize about porn.)

              But how is that different during every day life? If your boyfriend notices a hot young thing walk by, and his eyes linger a second or two longer than you think they should, is that similarly threatening? Do you think the only thing that interests men in a woman is how she looks? That if opportunity arose to trade you in for a younger, hotter model he would jump at the opportunity?

            • We have very different perceptions of pornography. There is much more variety in weight and ages among men in porn then there are in women. Men do not have to align to standards of youth or beauty to be in porn.

              You said: “The latter is not unique to women. I would say the only two things that matter about men in porn are their race and cock size. If you’re black, you’re supposed to have an abnormally large cock to fulfill the little white girl’s Mandingo fantasy. Yet another reason why I find commercial porn nauseating.”

              It’s interesting to me that you choose to use the words, “little white girl”. So often we call “men”, men and women “girls”. I think it’s because again, the standards on women to be young, or kicked to the curb when they aren’t is so heavily prevalent in our culture. I have used the word “girl/girls” before to describe women myself. I have been paying attention to just how much we all seem to call grown women “girls” and men “men”. It’s rather intersting.

              I digress though.

              Yes, the level and the amount of name calling that goes on in porn IS unique to women. I don’t deny that maybe sometimes men get called names. But not ANYWHERE near how women are called. There are not movies after movies listed about guys. There are movies after movies listed about how women are four letter names. You make it sound like porn is egalitarian when it isn’t Nick.

              You said: “On the contrary. I think most commercial porn is degrading toward women, but also that there is a lot of non-commercial porn out there that isn’t. Rather than writing off porn categorically, I advise people be more selective about their porn, to look for products that are ethically produced. The link I posted to Uncommon Appetites is an example of what I’m talking about, and I am very hopeful that the MLNP site will catch on.”

              Men have exactly the kind of porn they want. If a large chunk of pornography is degrading to women, that is because that is what men want to see. They don’t want to have to do women right by porn. That is the ugly reality no one wants to really address.

              And now we have generations of young girls and boys growing up on some really seedy stuff.

              You said: “I don’t think you should compete with fantasy; I think you should recognize it as such and accept it as no more real than centaur fantasies. ”

              Probably not but on a human level, it doesn’t stop people from infact competing and comparing themselves. Saying we shouldn’t “compete/compare” and what we actually do are two different things.

              Men are crazy if they think that their partner doesn’t want to be his fantasy. Especially over some other woman that has done absoluetely nothing for him.

              Do you think that the only natural biological thing going on when someone watches porn is being turned on? No. Many other natural biological imperatives are also switched on. As men, you can’t expect to give credence and attention to something and not expect women to say “wait a minute, lets see what this says about him and about me.” That’s simply logical AND biological.

              You said: “I mean, the movie Deep Throat was all about this male fantasy that there exists some woman who can only be pleasured by deep oral. It’s not my fantasy, and I don’t think it’s at all realistic, but I’m not going to judge people on their fantasy lives. If a guy is trying to pressure his girlfriend into doing it to “live out” his fantasy I’d probably think differently.”

              There is a fine line about “pressure”. A man doesn’t have to be nagging his patner to do something to “pressure” her. believe it or not, a lot of men WANT to make their guy happy. But they can’t live up to the material he has been regualrly comsuming since he was a boy. So they are stuck in a hard place. They don’t want to disappoint him and come off as a no-fun prude but they also don’t really like the ideas he gets from his movies. Believe me, I have been there. It’s not a fun place to be. It sucks the fun right out of sex.

              As for the movie, I don’t know much about it but of course, google is our friend and I used it. Apparently the premise of the movie is that the woman in it, her clitoris is located in the back of her throat. I don’t think there is any woman that exists where her clitoris would exist in the back of her throat. But why would you even want that? Why would you prefer that over the way a woman was already designed? I am not trying to put down your fantasy but as a woman, it’s just mind boggling the amount of objectification that is normalized or that I should have to tip toe around so I don’t offend your fantasy. A movie about wanting to actually re-design a woman so that her clitoris is in the back of her throat????It’s almost insinuates that women are barely real people. Maybe you are a better person than me Nick because you don’t judge people for their fantasies. But since fantasies are infact another component of our complexity has human beings, I can’t say that fantasies don’t say something about us on some level, whatever that may be. And I am not saying you don’t see women as people. I am only saying that the premise of that movie makes it sound like women aren’t really even people where their bodies can be redesigned for what best may please a man first. Otherwise, the clitoris would have been fine remaining right where God put it. Can you understand how these things can really seem like women are hugely being objectified? Almost like we aren’t even human beings where our own sexuality is ours? In a movie that is about a woman that has a clitoris in the back of her throat, not because a man wanted to give her pleasure (because wouldn’t it have been fine to keep her clitoris in her vagina?), but because men wanted to see pretend that having sex with a woman’s mouth was where her clit should be? Do you see the dehumanization in that?

              You said: “As for competing with the women in porn, I suppose that’s one way of looking at it. I think guys would have to go out of their way to find porn that didn’t include young, skinny, white females so I’m not sure how much a guy’s porn preferences speak to his desire for the way a particular woman looks. (I’d suspect the scenarios are more important than anything, but I’m not privy to how other men fantasize about porn.)”

              Men have exactly the kind of porn they want. Porn producers make porn that works. That brings in money. They aren’t making porn that men aren’t interested in seeing. They aren’t making so much of one kind of porn because men don’t infact want to see it. What men want is what drives the industry. Otherwise, porn producers would say, “oh gee, this is what they want, my last movie go this much, let me make more of this.”

              You said: “But how is that different during every day life? If your boyfriend notices a hot young thing walk by, and his eyes linger a second or two longer than you think they should, is that similarly threatening? Do you think the only thing that interests men in a woman is how she looks? That if opportunity arose to trade you in for a younger, hotter model he would jump at the opportunity?”

              Of course it’s threatening when my boyfriend notices some “young hot thing” walking by. Why shouldn’t it be? Do I think he is going to leave me and chase her? No. But I do think it still says something. Am I suppose to remain 100% unaffected? Do you think that’s a fair request? Do you think the idea that a man isn’t going to leave his partner while checking young hot things is suppose to make a woman feel good? I’ve seen guys out with their wives and families check me out. It’s so discouraging. Then I see his wife look at me after she noticed he was. Really sucky to not put it too articulately.

              Although a lot of men infact do leave their partners for “young hot things” all the time. And no, I don’t think the only thing that interests a man about a woman is her looks but it is clearly one of the most important things to a man. Otherwise “young hot things” wouldn’t sway him to begin with!

              I’m just tired of men expecting women to be these uber confident super beings that don’t let such things affect them EVEN as HE is being affected by them. He’s allowed to have all kind of visceral responses to all kinds of women but she isn’t allowed to have her own response system to him having this responses. I guess she should just be dead on the inside emotionally about it to make him happy so he can go on oggling everything he wants while she strokes his arm and tells him how wonderful he is. I really don’t know what men expect here. I am just sick of the messages and the tight rope women have to walk. Be confident but understand sometimes he wants to see young hot babes being banged out. Be confident in yourself and don’t buy into beauty stereotypes but when he buys into them that’s okay. Be confident but understand how much men need a million different visuals of other women to sustain a relationship with you. Be confident and don’t let these things bother you even as he is clearly affected by them.

              Women are expected to walk on this tight rope where we excuse and justify every male sexual behavior but we are not allowed to express our ownselves in response to his. We are expected to be so understanding and gracious about so much but rarely to men even try to understand how hard that is. Alot of men don’t even understand what its like living today in this world where you can’t even get away from a lot of the cultural messages society sends you about what you need to look like and be to be “feminine”. All day long you are out in the world in it and when you come home, it’s still in your home because your man most likely is looking at some kind of porn of some kind of babes he wants to do that aren’t you. You can’t even get a break or have a safe place in your own home anymore. Or even in your bedroom! The amount of men that want you to conform to their fantasy has grown with how easily porn has become a part of our society. Expectations have increased and the line between “fantasy” and “reality” are certianly blurred.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              It’s interesting to me that you choose to use the words, “little white girl”.

              Because that is usually part of the trope. Young white naîf encounters monster black cock, her doe eyes wide with fear. We’re supposed to believe she’s 18 and it’s her first time.
              Although there is another trope, which is the cuckhold whose wife is being serviced by a big black cock while he watches.

              The rest of your post doesn’t appear to need a response. You don’t seem to be able to acknowledge where I agree with you, and rather than respond to my few points of contention (still waiting for examples of others that are like Ron Jeremy) you go on a long diatribe against the parts of the porn industry no one here is defending.

              What exactly is your point again?

              My point is simple. Exploitative porn: bad. Ethically produced porn: good. Support the good, work against the bad. That is all.

            • “We have very different perceptions of pornography. There is much more variety in weight and ages among men in porn then there are in women. Men do not have to align to standards of youth or beauty to be in porn.”
              That’s because you aren’t looking at enough porn. Do you mean they have to stick to an ideal to become very popular? Because you can be anythign and be in porn. Pickup a camera, film your sex, upload it. Tada, you’re bodytype is now in porn. By variety do you mean the % distribution of bodytypes? I see all kinds of bodytypes, but young and thin is quite a popular distribution on many sites if that is what you mean. I see plenty of other types of body though, they just aren’t the most popular.

              “It’s interesting to me that you choose to use the words, “little white girl”. So often we call “men”, men and women “girls”. I think it’s because again, the standards on women to be young, or kicked to the curb when they aren’t is so heavily prevalent in our culture. I have used the word “girl/girls” before to describe women myself. I have been paying attention to just how much we all seem to call grown women “girls” and men “men”. It’s rather intersting.”

              I think he’s referring to the stereotype of the mandingo with the college petite body woman. Pay more attention to when people call men “guys”, because it’s very common to see people referred to as guys and girls. There are times where girls is used to try make them sound younger but I think the majority of the time it’s just the neutral guys n girls term. I find boy is more often used to denote a child, whereas girl is ambiguous in referring to a female or a young female, not always meaning young. I say guys n girls a lot and I’m referring purely to gender, not age.

              “Probably not but on a human level, it doesn’t stop people from infact competing and comparing themselves. Saying we shouldn’t “compete/compare” and what we actually do are two different things.

              Men are crazy if they think that their partner doesn’t want to be his fantasy. Especially over some other woman that has done absoluetely nothing for him.”
              I think it’d be a good point actually for women, and men, to be taught at a young age that fantasy doesn’t mean they really want it. One of my fantasies involves superheroes, I haven’t seen any Rogues or Phoenix’s flying around, have you? So yes, women, and men, stop trying to compare yourself to fantasies. Ask your partner what their fantasy is and try to do it if you want but don’t be crushed if you can’t, it still doesn’t mean they actually want it. Or do you assume all the women with rape fantasies really want to be raped? Should their parters rape them as an attempt to give those women the fantasy they want?

              “Do you think that the only natural biological thing going on when someone watches porn is being turned on? No. Many other natural biological imperatives are also switched on. As men, you can’t expect to give credence and attention to something and not expect women to say “wait a minute, lets see what this says about him and about me.” That’s simply logical AND biological.”
              Ever seen someone play a violent video game n laugh? Do you think it says they’re a sick fuck that enjoys violence and is ready to columbine the local highschool?

              “But they can’t live up to the material he has been regualrly comsuming since he was a boy. ”
              How many of those women disbelieve him when he says they are beautiful? I’ve had women disbelieve me when I said they were beautiful, hot, they aren’t willing to trust my word. Yeah there are hot pornstars, but seriously, who gives a shit about them. If I am dating a woman I want my woman, not a pornstar, I think some women are truly underestimating how much other shit matters in a relationship, hell just the bonding process alone puts YOU on a pedestal far higher than the pornstar is on. Do you honestly think he’s there thinking “Man she’s hotter than my gf” ? Ask your guy what he thinks, find out what turns him on, chances are you are at level 1million, pornstar gets locked back at level 100. Does the man sit there thinking all day of the pornstar, or is he thinking of you? Giving you massages, trying to make you happy, etc? I’d say most men don’t really give porn a second thought, and yeah it’s used to help get them off and after that, nothing. Whereas a gf, a love, a wife, is there always in their heart, on their mind a lot, etc. I’d say only rarely would porn be more to the man than their partner is, and that’d be a problem with addiction, which could easily happen with alcohol, drugs, etc. I seriously doubt the majority of men actually expect their fantasy to come true, nor hold their partner up to that fantasy.

              “They don’t want to disappoint him and come off as a no-fun prude but they also don’t really like the ideas he gets from his movies. Believe me, I have been there. It’s not a fun place to be. It sucks the fun right out of sex. ”
              Some women sure, so let him know why. Stop being such a passive doormat, TELL your partner your desires, what you like, what you don’t like, make a damn list and I’m sure there will be overlapping desires which you can both do. Do you know how many men want to make their partner happy? There’s a reason men want to know their partner orgasmed, a small part could be ego, but in most cases it’s because THEY WANT TO PLEASE THEIR PARTNER. Do you know how many men tear themselves apart inside because they aren’t earning $100k a year and expect women would love them more if they gave them more gifts? Yet women routinely say here that they don’t care about that shit. The problem is trying to please your partner based on what you are GUESSING they like instead of truly communicating and finding out what they want. Do you think a guy like me wants a woman to do stuff she hates just to please me? I wanna know what makes her happy, I want us to find overlapping likes and do them together so we both benefit. I find it hard to believe I am a rare guy.

              “I do know that porn use to be a “once-in-awhile” thing. And today, porn is no longer a “once-in-awhile” thing for a lot of people. ”
              Sex was probably a once-in-awhile thing for many, hell lots of stuff we do today use to be once-in-awhile. Doesn’t mean it’s bad.

              As Nick says
              “The rest of your post doesn’t appear to need a response. You don’t seem to be able to acknowledge where I agree with you, and rather than respond to my few points of contention (still waiting for examples of others that are like Ron Jeremy) you go on a long diatribe against the parts of the porn industry no one here is defending.

              What exactly is your point again?”
              Exactly. I don’t see anyone defending this stuff? We’re defending amateur porn and ethical porn, egalitarian stuff, not every bit of porn.

              “Be confident but understand sometimes he wants to see young hot babes being banged out. Be confident in yourself and don’t buy into beauty stereotypes but when he buys into them that’s okay.”
              Of all the romance novel covers I’ve seen, I’ve NEVER seen an overweight guy, they have all been fabio, white, appear to be rich. In nearly every romance movie I’ve seen, the guys have been good looking, male model-like. Should I take from this that women only want hunky fabio-like men who are rich? I’ve seen more diversity in porn actually.

              “The amount of men that want you to conform to their fantasy has grown with how easily porn has become a part of our society. Expectations have increased and the line between “fantasy” and “reality” are certianly blurred.”
              I think this is happenign across the board, ever see how many guys say they can’t complete for romance with romance movies? Feel like nothing they do is good enough? But becareful you aren’t misreading his desires, as I said before, Communication, find out what he likes. No point dreading the worst before speaking to him, some of the stuff I’ve heard women worry n fret about is stuff I wonder if they actually even know their man. STOP TRYING TO MINDREAD MEN is a good start, Erin, Seriously, stop trying because you fail to understand men. ASK THEM. Say “Bob, what is it you like about porn”? Do it in a pleasant voice so you don’t trigger defensiveness cuz no one opens up to someone who’s being angry. You’re free to feel insecure n whatever, but I think it’s better to know exactly what is bad vs guessing and hurting yourself with potentially false-beliefs. The level of beauty I routinely see women comparing themselves to is so extreme that I wonder if women really have a clue what men want. That says a lot.

            • Nick, how much of an “outlier” could Ron Jeremy be? He is a household name. I know kids who know who he is. He was rated one of the top 50 pornstars of all time apparently by the industry itself. It’s said that he’s made around 1,750 porn films.

              Again, tell me of a female porn actress that has reached his level of fame that looks anything close to what Ron Jeremy looks like. Other men have implied that the reason Ron Jeremey exists in the porn world is because of his big penis. But aren’t there women that look simliar to Ron Jeremey with maybe very large breasts? Why have none of them achieved the aclaim that Ron has?

              Standards for the way women look are higher then standards for the way men look. To the extent that women get plastic surgery to be more of the fantasy than men will ever do to achieve the same. Women aren’t generally impressed with fake body parts. For some reason, men are.

              And when this is pointed out, about standards for women phyiscally vs standards for men, the discussion turns into how as a woman, you aren’t suppose to pay attention to these messages men re-enforce through what they are drawn to sexually through porn. Apparently teen porn is one of the most popular porn out today. Not sure what that means for the millions of other women that aren’t teenagers but I’m sure there are a alot of men who are father’s and husbands masturbating to cheerleaders and school girls. I guess that’s just the way it goes though right? Why concern ourselves with such things. Heck, some might even argue about how “natural” that is. Well, no matter how “natural it is (or isn’t), that doesn’t do much to help the women out there that have to deal with their husband’s desire for teenagers, or blonds, or big breasts…or whatever flavor he wants to visually experience like women are candies to be picked out of a box and tossed aside after taking a bite or two out of them. We also apparently aren’t suppose to acknowledge the porn that have made fetishes of women that don’t fit into the more universally appealing women. Because apparently fetishizing other women that don’t fit into mainstream appeal is even sexually healthy to begin with? This is suppose to be a good thing. I’m not really sure how it’s a good thing but it seems the rationlization is that because some man somewhere wants to see something “different”, this is suppose to be sex positive for women that aren’t the mainstream appeal. I haven’t quite figured out that argument yet or why men think this is a positive for women.

              They don’t put the men in porn for women. Unless it’s specific porn specifically tailored for women. Which is still a limited segment of the industry. But perhaps that what people want. Porn for her and porn for him and both couples can have sex when their internet connections go down. Maybe that’s a world that the majority of people want to embrace? I don’t know anymore.

              I do know that porn use to be a “once-in-awhile” thing. And today, porn is no longer a “once-in-awhile” thing for a lot of people.

              If someone like James Deen has a large teenage girl following (although I’d like to see some numbers) then I think that shows how easily young girls are also sucbseptble to letting their sexuality evolve from porn. Do we really want young girls to have a sexuality that evolved from porn anymore then we want young guys too? Especially when the majority of porn comes from a highly masculine form of fantasy first? Lets be honest, porn isn’t egalitarian. It’s not putting out as much female fantasy as male. The women in porn aren’t treated egalitarian. There is a heavily dominated male presence that centers mainly around male needs, male wishes, male fantasy about what they want women to look like and be given whatever mood a man is in for to entertain himself with.

              It is very easy for people to blow off the importance porn in the conversation with people pleasing comments like “misogynists porn is disgusting”. Misogynist porn IS disgusting but I believe most porn is more misogynistic then not. I also recongnize there are varying levels but the undertone of most porn isn’t one where wome nare treated with respect, kindness, fun, pleasure. Even while these women may act in pleasure to whatever act is being bestowed upon them.

              If I believe that, why shouldn’t I express that? Because you don’t believe it? Because it makes you unhappy that I think most porn is highly degrading toward women most of the time? You say that’s a sweeping generalization. But to me, it isnt. It’s a reality I see reflected in the industry with its specefic treatment toward women. Which isn’t equal to it’s treatement of men. Because lets keep in mind, porn is created FIRST for male pleasure. Which is why so much of what actually happens in porn would actually bring a real life woman real pleasure.

              I also would never say something like, “don’t neglect your partner for porn, or bring expectations from porn into your bedroom” because I think there are TONS of men out there already doing just that, that probably don’t believe they are. I also think there are even more men that are bringing what they see into the bedroom. I could very well say that line you wanted me to say. I certainly agree with it. But I believe that that is already happening very often. So me saying that line doesn’t address the problem I think is going on.

              Realistically, how couldn’t someone bring what they see in porn in the bedroom anyway? Of course men are bringing that stuff in the bedroom. As are women. They bring it in when they ask their partner to dress up or be more like something they saw in porn. You wouldn’t believe how many men have these kind of requests. How many men encourage you to be more of the porn fantasy then they encourage you to be yourself sexually. Being myself isn’t as exciting. But when I play up to what men want, that’s when I get positive reinforcement. When I just want to be little ole me, that doesn’t really seem to make men as happy.

              Today it seems like a lot of men don’t even know how to have sex anymore without the aid of porn to tell them how to do it or to tell them what they like. They bring it in the bedroom when they are with their partner and ask her to “watch it with him”. They bring it in the bedroom when he is having sex with his partner and a sexy clip from a porn he saw flashes in his mind’s eye or a sexy woman. Almost every guy here that is reading this I am sure knows what I am talking about.

              Lets stop lying to ourselves and claiming that people aren’t bringing porn into the bedroom. If people were not bringing porn in the bedroom, porn wouldn’t be as pervasive ase it is currently in our culture and in our societies sexuality.

            • “Almost every guy here that is reading this I am sure knows what I am talking about.”
              No. I am sure that you think these men think this way but you’re absolutely terrible at understanding the male brain, so seriously, stop trying, start ASKING US MEN what we think and stop TELLING us what we think. The level of womansplaining you do is incredible!

            • I find you to be perptually condecending toward me Archy. “womensplaing”? That is a really condecending term. I am voicing my opinion, just as you are voicing yours. The fact that I am a woman doesn’t mean I am not intelligent enough to formulate an opinion on this topic based on information I have collected. I am sure there are some things I don’t understand being that I am infact a woman, and not a man. but then again, wouldn’t that be true foroyu as well in your approach to porn? Wouldn’t there also be things you don’t understand as a man regarding how women can think and feel about porn? Have you seen me attempt to deterioate your opinion by saying it’s “mansplaining”.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Standards for the way women look are higher then standards for the way men look. To the extent that women get plastic surgery to be more of the fantasy than men will ever do to achieve the same. Women aren’t generally impressed with fake body parts. For some reason, men are.

              What fake body parts are available to men? Don’t believe the spam messages you get; there is no product or pill or surgery that’s going to increase the length and girth of a guy’s cock. A guy can put in some time at the gym (maybe with the aid of some anabolic steroids perhaps) to get the porn physique, but there’s no amount of money that will buy him 3 more inches.

              I do know that porn use to be a “once-in-awhile” thing. And today, porn is no longer a “once-in-awhile” thing for a lot of people.

              You can thank the Internet for that. Pre-Internet you had to drive to a video store of ill-repute and rent something, risking someone you know seeing you coming or going (inside the store no one recognizes each other).

              Lets be honest, porn isn’t egalitarian. It’s not putting out as much female fantasy as male.

              Is there someone in these comments who has claimed it is?

              I also recongnize there are varying levels but the undertone of most porn isn’t one where wome nare treated with respect, kindness, fun, pleasure. Even while these women may act in pleasure to whatever act is being bestowed upon them.

              First, not all porn is meant to be like this. Take Kink.com which specializes in fetish porn. The scenes they create does nothing for me, but I’m not going to judge people based on their particular kinks. I don’t know why some people are into BDSM, I don’t understand the appeal of Femdom porn, so so the standard I use for judging it is whether it was produced ethically or not.

              If I believe that, why shouldn’t I express that?

              You can express what you want. I get the sense that when someone expresses a counter-opinion, or suggests that your opinion suffers from a deficit of information or is incorrect, that you equate that with trying to silence you. The reason I get this sense is because you’ve said this at least three times recently, and I can’t find a place where I or anyone else has asked you not to state your opinions.

              Because it makes you unhappy that I think most porn is highly degrading toward women most of the time?

              Do you honestly think you have that much power?

              Which is why so much of what actually happens in porn would[n't] actually bring a real life woman real pleasure.

              The primary consumer of porn is men, and therefore the scenes are going to cater to men. But, as has oft been repeated, the positions are not picked based on what will bring pleasure to either actor – they are chosen based on what meets the fantasy they’re depicting and what looks good for the camera.

              Realistically, how couldn’t someone bring what they see in porn in the bedroom anyway?

              I give people more credit than that. I think people are able to separate fantasy from reality. If they weren’t, if they were beholden to their impulses and had no control over their behavior in the bedroom, then what right do we have to judge them for it? No, it’s the very fact that they have a choice over how they behave towards someone that gives us cause for saying something is ethical or not.

              When I just want to be little ole me, that doesn’t really seem to make men as happy.

              Having never had you as a sex partner, I don’t think I’m in a position to judge your experience. Perhaps you can ask those sex partners from your past why they behaved as they did.

              Lets stop lying to ourselves and claiming that people aren’t bringing porn into the bedroom. If people were not bringing porn in the bedroom, porn wouldn’t be as pervasive ase it is currently in our culture and in our societies sexuality.

              Who said people weren’t? I’m sure there are plenty of boys and men who get their sex education from porn (which is a sad comment on our education system here in the US). I mean, there are commenters here who say they aren’t personally doing it, and I take them at their word. I have said I’m not doing it, although I also think it’s a claim that is somewhat not applicable. I don’t actually watch porn that often (perhaps twice a month) but given that it is rather vanilla and ethically produced it’s not far removed from what I suspect most people want in their sexual relationships. If you happened to have looked at one of the videos on the Uncommon Appetites website, did you find anything objectionable? Anything you would be aghast if your boyfriend brought it into the bedroom?

            • You said: “What fake body parts are available to men? Don’t believe the spam messages you get; there is no product or pill or surgery that’s going to increase the length and girth of a guy’s cock. A guy can put in some time at the gym (maybe with the aid of some anabolic steroids perhaps) to get the porn physique, but there’s no amount of money that will buy him 3 more inches.”

              Men CAN get penile implants if they really wanted to. Along with cheek, shoulder, pec, calf, butt implants too. They can have nose jobs, reshape their jawlines and do everything women can do their bodies.

              You said: “You can thank the Internet for that. Pre-Internet you had to drive to a video store of ill-repute and rent something, risking someone you know seeing you coming or going (inside the store no one recognizes each other).”

              No. I “thank” men for that. Internet may be the vehicle that made that possible but men are the ones that have let their behavior and actions change from that vehicle. I also think women are changing from it too. Either way on who I can “thank”, the reality is that men no longer look at porn “once-in-awhile”, is this a world we want to live in? I guess it is for men. But lets not pretend our selves and say that this isn’t/hasn’t changed sexuality.

              You said: “Is there someone in these comments who has claimed it is?”

              Whenever I talk about this subject people, usually men, start talking about how they like all this kind, sweet, loving making porn apparently where all the women come in different shapes and sizes and ages.

              You said: “First, not all porn is meant to be like this. Take Kink.com which specializes in fetish porn. The scenes they create does nothing for me, but I’m not going to judge people based on their particular kinks. I don’t know why some people are into BDSM, I don’t understand the appeal of Femdom porn, so so the standard I use for judging it is whether it was produced ethically or not.”

              You don’t need to judge anyone but we do need to try and understand what these kind things say about us. There is a difference. No one is saying” these people are bad”. But there is a deep psychological reason why people like certain things. Getting to that would uncover a lot I think.

              You said: “You can express what you want. I get the sense that when someone expresses a counter-opinion, or suggests that your opinion suffers from a deficit of information or is incorrect, that you equate that with trying to silence you. The reason I get this sense is because you’ve said this at least three times recently, and I can’t find a place where I or anyone else has asked you not to state your opinions.”

              You have a keen way of twisting things around to suit your own agenda. I am very articulate on this subject and have more then enough knowledge and information to make the intelligent posts I do. It’s the reasons you try so hard to debate with me. So this isn’t about my opinion “suffering from a deficit of information”. This is about a few people simply not liking what I have to say.

              You said: “Do you honestly think you have that much power?”

              It’s not about “power” to me even if it is to you. I don’t even know why you would ask this.

              You said: “The primary consumer of porn is men, and therefore the scenes are going to cater to men. But, as has oft been repeated, the positions are not picked based on what will bring pleasure to either actor – they are chosen based on what meets the fantasy they’re depicting and what looks good for the camera.”

              You seem to toggle back and forth here Nick. You agree that the primary consumer of porn is men. You agree that the scenes cater to men. That means that the fantasy they are meeting caters to men. The male porn actors are doing what men want to do and see. Do you really think a lot of the positions are equally uncomfortable for the men as they are for the woman? Most times I would say not. Very rarely do you see a man grimace or wince in pain from a certain position. Very really do you see him reduced to gagging and coughing in most heterosexual mainstream porn.
              Most porn is made for men. And because of this, there is a very heavy imbalance about what is being created and absorbed by the masses. Which is primarily male fantasy first. You think both young girls and boys growing up on this realize that? No. You think a lot of young girls aren’t going to start develop heavily strong more masculine fantasies and deny parts of their own femininity in favor of it? Of course they will. Because they will think, “this is what sex is suppose to be, this is who I am suppose to be to be sexy to my partner.” And what will boys say? “All right!” Because it strongly caters to what men want first. There is no room for anything real about women in it. And that disproportionately creates an unhealthy balance in sexuality for all of us.

              You said: “I give people more credit than that. I think people are able to separate fantasy from reality. If they weren’t, if they were beholden to their impulses and had no control over their behavior in the bedroom, then what right do we have to judge them for it? No, it’s the very fact that they have a choice over how they behave towards someone that gives us cause for saying something is ethical or not.”

              It’s not a matter of not giving people credit or giving them credit. That’s an over simplification of human behavior in general. Yes, people CAN separate fantasy from reality. This doesn’t stop people from asking their partners to be or do a fantasy, copying it or whatever, and bringing it to tlife. This doesn’t stop people from being turned on by fantasies either. Clearly a part of their brain is able to recognize it as somewhat “real” to them to even be turned on by it.

              We’ve all seen bad action movies right? When something completely stupid and outrageous happens what is the normal reactions? “Oh that could NEVER happen”. And because of that reaction, you are not totally titillated by whatever is being depicted because it is SO far out there. But that doesn’t happen with a lot of porn. Despite us all being able to understand on a logical level that it’s fantasy. It’s real enough to have people respond to it on such a physical level. Much more so then even watching an action scene in a movie since masturbation and desire play key roles here.

              You said: “Having never had you as a sex partner, I don’t think I’m in a position to judge your experience. Perhaps you can ask those sex partners from your past why they behaved as they did.”

              Who says I haven’t already had those conversation?

              You said: “ I don’t actually watch porn that often (perhaps twice a month) but given that it is rather vanilla and ethically produced it’s not far removed from what I suspect most people want in their sexual relationships. If you happened to have looked at one of the videos on the Uncommon Appetites website, did you find anything objectionable? Anything you would be aghast if your boyfriend brought it into the bedroom?”

              How do you know something is ethically produced? Do you do research on every porn movie you watch before watching it?

            • “Men like the idea that some old, fat gross dude can sleep with young beautiful women. ”
              My my, aren’t you a ray of sunshine. And to think of all the bitching you’ve done about how women get objectified, degraded, etc, and now you’re doing it to Ron Jeremy? Dafuq? Why are you judging his looks? Do you think the men watching porn care all that much about the looks of the actor? The only time I ever did was watching amateur porn and realizing that even fat guys get laid too, with a variety of women, that fat n thin, old n young, black n white, blue n green people all have sex with each other and there’s no 1 set rule. Do you think men are unable to understand in pro porn that she is paid to have sex with him? The fantasy you speak of would only really work in amateur porn and unpaid, hell even the comments on amateur porn where the guy is fat and she is thin, decent looking usually have “he must have paid for it” and a bunch of other bullshit. Yet I look around a real relationships and see all combinations of people dating, and that too is reflected in porn.

              “I think the reason standards are so low for men and so high for women is because men want to see highly beautiful women that they can pretend want them, an average/regular or even ugly guy”
              The standards for pro porn are low for men? Bullshit, rarely do you see an average sized penis in a lot of porn and quite frankly most of the men in the videos are also lean or
              cut, with huge dicks. The Ron Jeremy’s are rare and Ron Jeremy was probably thought of as a stud when he started out. The major appeals of Ron Jeremy are his penis size, and the number of women he fucked, it’s novelty. He wasn’t fat when he started out, and when he did start out porn wasn’t marketed much to women so they didn’t put him in to draw in women, they put him in to draw in MEN because he was the epitomy of the stereotypical porn star male, Big dick, fucks lots of women, fullstop. I’d say most often men do not actually SEE the porn star, but they are thinking the male is themselves, hence why Gonzo and the first person views are so damn popular (camera aimed from where the guys head is so you can better imagine it’s you).

              But are you really gonna sit here assuming fat women aren’t in porn? Google BBW, there’s a whole market for obese n super obese women in porn that I’ve never seen obese or super obese men in porn anywhere even close to the number of women shown.

              ” And other women? They become nothing but fetishes.”
              Why do you call them a fetish? Because the stereotypical pornstar isn’t the same as them? Do you think they are so rare that they are a fetish? Every category has an enormous amount of videos, pictures, actors n actresses available.

            • You said: “My my, aren’t you a ray of sunshine.”

              That made me laugh out loud.

              You said: “ And to think of all the bitching you’ve done about how women get objectified, degraded, etc, and now you’re doing it to Ron Jeremy?”

              I see..so I just “bitch”? I’m sorry you look down on my opinion and comments so much that they are just “bitching” to you.

              You said: “Do you think the men watching porn care all that much about the looks of the actor?”

              I don’t. That’s why the men can look certain ways that women can’t. That’s why you will never see a woman Ron’s age or looks achieve the level of success he has, even if she had really big boobs.

              You said: “The only time I ever did was watching amateur porn and realizing that even fat guys get laid too, with a variety of women, that fat n thin, old n young, black n white, blue n green people all have sex with each other and there’s no 1 set rule.”

              There are some pretty stereotypical equations that are pretty well defined in porn about what men like to see *most*. It’s not fat middled aged women with normal bodies.

              You asked: “Do you think men are unable to understand in pro porn that she is paid to have sex with him?”

              Not at all. I think men understand that very much on a logical level. However, when they are masturbating to something, they aren’t simply operating on a purely logical level. they are operating on other levels both emotionally and physically. If they are using positive reinforcement, and masturbation is a positive reinforcement, there are other wires and connections going on in the brain beyond just logic.

              You said: “The fantasy you speak of would only really work in amateur porn and unpaid, hell even the comments on amateur porn where the guy is fat and she is thin, decent looking usually have “he must have paid for it” and a bunch of other bullshit. Yet I look around a real relationships and see all combinations of people dating, and that too is reflected in porn.”

              Apparently teenaged porn is the largest most sought after kind of porn. I don’t think it’s just teenaged boys driving up that number.

              You said : “The Ron Jeremy’s are rare and Ron Jeremy was probably thought of as a stud when he started out. “

              Ron has mad nearly 1,750 porn movies. Maybe the Ron’s are rare, but a female Ron Jeremy is nonexistent.

              You said: “The major appeals of Ron Jeremy are his penis size, and the number of women he fucked, it’s novelty.”

              Ron Jeremy isn’t in porn because of what women wanted to see in penis size. You yourself said when he started out porn wasn’t marketed to women.

              You said: “they put him in to draw in MEN because he was the epitomy of the stereotypical porn star male, Big dick, fucks lots of women, fullstop. “

              We agree that they put him in to draw in men. We disagree that it was because men want to see big dicks. What men want to see is homely guys getting a chance with barely 18 year olds.

              You said: “I’d say most often men do not actually SEE the porn star, but they are thinking the male is themselves, hence why Gonzo and the first person views are so damn popular (camera aimed from where the guys head is so you can better imagine it’s you).”

              I agree. Most men want to picture themselves with the women getting f*cked. Hence the movie focuses on her and her body making her looks more important.
              From my understanding of “Gonzo” porn, it’s actually a pretty degrading form of porn.

              You said : “But are you really gonna sit here assuming fat women aren’t in porn? “

              That’s not what I said at all. I didn’t say fat women didn’t exist in porn. They are usually fetishsized in porn. What I said was, show me an actress with Ron Jeremy’s looks that made it to the level of popularity he has. …..a woman with perhaps really big breasts or a butt just like Ron has a big body part.

              
You said : “Why do you call them a fetish? Because the stereotypical pornstar isn’t the same as them? Do you think they are so rare that they are a fetish? Every category has an enormous amount of videos, pictures, actors n actresses available.”

              Because that’s what they are. They become fetishsized for a particular feature or body part. I don’t think this is sex positive.

              Again, I will repeat, apparently teen porn is one of the most largey sought out kinds of porn.

            • Bitching probably isn’t the right word, I forgot it can also mean complaints that aren’t legitimate. To me it simply means kicking up a stink, but still valid. I forgot the better word for it, making aware of an issue? I don’t actually look down on the comments, though my use of bitching probably sounds otherwise.

              “Ron has mad nearly 1,750 porn movies. Maybe the Ron’s are rare, but a female Ron Jeremy is nonexistent.”
              Only one close I know of is Jenna, but didn’t she quit? Most pro porn I see has women between 18 to about 40, infact I see quite a lot of older women in pro porn but I guess we just look at different porn? There are more younger women but maybe 80:20 split, vs 99:1. The majority of women in porn I see look to be about 20-30.

              “We agree that they put him in to draw in men. We disagree that it was because men want to see big dicks. What men want to see is homely guys getting a chance with barely 18 year olds.”
              Penis size is a factor in porn, it’s extremely rare to find a penis under 8inchs in a lot of porn, but I do think they might be showing smaller penis’s as it’s being known more of men’s insecurity. I have an average size penis and it was a godsend to actually see an average penis in porn, and before you ask the porn I saw it in had a wide range of women and was both amateur and pro.

              “From my understanding of “Gonzo” porn, it’s actually a pretty degrading form of porn.”
              Some is, some isn’t. Bangbus is degrading as hell, but others are just trying to capture the girlfriend experience, ie just sex with your partner without trying to degrade. A lot of amateur porn is gonzo as usually someone has to hold the camera, it’s quite interesting to see the female point of view and even makes it easier to see oral sex performed on a female (which is hard to see since nothing sticks out much :P

              A quick google seems to show Jenna Jamison has has 110 films, Ron Jeremy though has over 2000 I think? I don’t think any other male stars have had over 100, it seems like a very rare thing and just a novelty. If you can find quite a few male stars that are continuously getting popularity then I might agree with your point, but one star doesn’treally say much when there are probably a a few hundred thousand, maybe million porn stars by now. In my viewing of porn I’ve probably seen at least 3000+ male n females in the thumbnails for porn on the utube style sites, I know of sites that have at least 100 stars and I think SuicideGirls (no, not violent, they’re “alternative”, tattoos, piercings) has over 500-1000.

              “Again, I will repeat, apparently teen porn is one of the most largey sought out kinds of porn.”
              The one constant I see in teen porn is that they’re thin, athletic body usually. It makes me wonder if most men are watching it because these women are young, or because they’re thin. The bikini model style thin I mean, not runway model style, maybe the word is toned? I’m not sure all teen porn is really of teens though, to me many actually look 20-25 but that could simply be mislabeling of the videos I usually see in the utube style sites. This could be a reflection on the society we have with seems to be fatphobic and age phobic, I think to truly change the tastes in porn we have to change society’s tastes itself. That would include diversifying what is advertised as beautiful in magazines, movies, even porn itself. Some of the worst judging of beauty I’ve seen comes from women and I do wonder if that has an effect on the men, if men are looking to women to know what is beatiful.

              Some beauty I do feel is pretty hard-coded to the brain but I think it’s more flexible than people give it credit. What I found interesting was a poll asking women and men to rate what they think men find attractive, women thought men wanted women who were thinner than what the men really wanted. Where does this idea come from though? Can women accurately gauge what men are attracted to? Is this playing a role in their insecurities towards porn? I’m sure there are a lot of legitimate concerns with porn as you say but is there another layer also hurting women where they are thinking the men are even more shallow than they really are?

              I’ve looked at teen porn, 18, 19, but that’s usually in the utube sites where I’m looking at 18-30’s, I’ll admit it’s pretty much physical only as I am MOST attracted to the fit and toned body type, I do look at other body types though. Interesting enough the thing that most draws me into clicking on a video is the eyes, smile, I have no idea why but it’s a large part of what I am attracted to. Considering porn makes it incredibly hard to have any emotional element, I usually only get a physical attraction to go from and that’s why porn will NEVER ever compete with a real woman. I can’t find out much about their personality, feel an emotional connection, it’s purely lust based. Maybe this is something women find harder to understand than men, hell I barely understand it myself, but it is nice to see sex and especially sex with people you are attracted to. Part of the whole teen porn thing could be some form of escape, to try remember the past if life is too stressful, but I dunno. My attraction to teen porn is mostly physical and I don’t see 18 as 18, but I see it in an age range, young adult which is what I am, middle aged after 30’s, then older adults 50+. So my attraction to teen porn is really just my age range porn, 18-30’s, not specifically and only 18 if that makes sense.

              I can tell you though I am attracted to a much wider range of women offline, than I am in porn, I dunno why, maybe it takes a lot to turn me on with porn alone, but it really isn’t very reflective of what I truly want. I’ve looked at orgies, but they aren’t appealing in real life, looked at public sex but isn’t appealing in real life, I’ve fantasized about being in war n finding love but no way do I ever ever wanna be in a war. I dunno how to explain it so you’d understand but fantasy, or what I look at in porn, isn’t always what I want offline. A woman shouldn’t compare herself to my fantasy, I don’t even live up to my fantasy, my fantasies are exactly that, Just fantasy, not actual desires, it’s sexy to roleplay, fantasize, but the only fantasy I want to be a reality is having a gf that I can go on dates with, do stuff together, cuddle, be affectionate, but also have a healthy sex life with.

            • Do you really think they put a man like Ron in porn because they thought he would draw women in with his huge penis?
              No Ron got into porn because his penis fits the idea that a man has to be really hung into be considered sexually attractive to women. Now this should not be confused with the idea that his huge penis would attract women to be in porno flicks with him exactly.

              In most porn guys are usually relegated to being just faceless cocks that are there to bang. Because seriously in most porn flicks it’s pretty rare that you even get the guy’s name in the credits. Just as a quick thought check try to think of as many male porn star names as you can and then try to think of as many female porn star names as you can.

              I think they did it because he appeals to guys that aren’t that good looking themselves and they can watch this guy sleep with young hot babes.
              Nope. If that were the case there would be more men like him in porn that could fit the idea of the “everyday man that is not super hot”. But even among the few guys that actually do become a common name Ron Jeremy isn’t that conventionally attractive.

              As has been pointed out (if not here then at least in past porn posts here) the standards of being attractive in terms of being a porn star are higher for women because they are simply put the main attraction. Most porn watchers are men that are interested in attractive women. There is not as much of a complex, “He’s a regular looking guy like me.” reasoning as you’re implying (although I bet it does happen to some degree with some men that watch porn). Most of the guys in porn are basically stand ins so that the guys that are watching can imagine themselves doing that stuff (hence the popularity of POV porn where the perspective from the guy holding the camera so it looks like the watcher is “in the scene”).

              Ron Jeremy isn’t there because porn makers thought his cock would draw in women to act in movies with him. It’s because the porn makers think the guys watching the movies will want to imagine themselves having sex with a woman with a huge cock. And since penis size is a random occurrence that could be literally any man with a huge cock and his attractiveness wouldn’t matter one bit. Make no mistake if Jeremy wan’t packing no one would know his name.

              Reminds me of a special I saw a few months ago about a man that had the largest known penis in the world. It was a guy in New York whose penis when erect clocked in about 14 inches. The only reason he is not in porn is because he doesn’t want to be in porn. But that doesn’t stop porn producers from constantly trying to get in contact with him to make offers. He’s not what you would call conventionally attractive in the least bit. Are you saying that if he didn’t have such a large cock porn producers would still be after him because he looks like an everyday man?

            • 
You said: “No Ron got into porn because his penis fits the idea that a man has to be really hung into be considered sexually attractive to women.”

              But below you agree that porn is made largely for men Danny, not for women. If you believe that, this above doesn’t make much sense.

              You said: “In most porn guys are usually relegated to being just faceless cocks that are there to bang. Because seriously in most porn flicks it’s pretty rare that you even get the guy’s name in the credits.”

              That’s because guys, who porn movies are mostly made for, don’t want to have to compete with other guys, even in a movie. So the images of the guy is limited so the man watching the movie can more easily put himself with the woman being sexed up.

              You said: “Nope. If that were the case there would be more men like him in porn that could fit the idea of the “everyday man that is not super hot”.
              And there is.

              You said: “As has been pointed out (if not here then at least in past porn posts here) the standards of being attractive in terms of being a porn star are higher for women because they are simply put the main attraction. Most porn watchers are men that are interested in attractive women.”

              Exactly. the standards are higher for women because porn is created for and by men. The standards and expectations will always be higher on women in this regard no matter how many “fat porn women exists too” get thrown out there.

              And this is one reason why porn creates concern for women that are pitted against ideals they simply can’t meet. Even if they wanted to do be what their man apparently really wants.

              You said: “Most of the guys in porn are basically stand ins so that the guys that are watching can imagine themselves doing that stuff (hence the popularity of POV porn where the perspective from the guy holding the camera so it looks like the watcher is “in the scene”).”

              Exactly. And yet men wonder why these things are concerning for women. Or why women question what is going through men’s heads when it comes to porn.

              You said: “Ron Jeremy isn’t there because porn makers thought his cock would draw in women to act in movies with him. It’s because the porn makers think the guys watching the movies will want to imagine themselves having sex with a woman with a huge cock. “

              I agree! Not only someone with a huge cock, but someone that isn’t even all that attractive sleeping with attractive young women. It feeds into male fantasy and ego.

            • we are actually saying a lot of the same things. although I get the impression you think these are positive things while I don’t.

            • But below you agree that porn is made largely for men Danny, not for women. If you believe that, this above doesn’t make much sense.
              Well as I said it’s an “idea” that women want large penises. Yes there are plenty of women that say that is not the case but at the same time the idea gets reinforced by women (not too different from having men who don’t embrace the ill treatment of women in some porn while there are other men who do embrace the ill treatment of women in some porn).

              That’s because guys, who porn movies are mostly made for, don’t want to have to compete with other guys, even in a movie. So the images of the guy is limited so the man watching the movie can more easily put himself with the woman being sexed up.
              I can agree with that. But please don’t take that to mean that these guys are all just taking the easy way out. A lot of these guys have been out in the dating world, competed against other men, and have lost out. For such guys it’s not, “I’m not even going to try I’m just going to go to the porn.”, but “I’ve been trying and failing for a long time, I’ll take this bit of comfort where I can get it.”

              And this is one reason why porn creates concern for women that are pitted against ideals they simply can’t meet. Even if they wanted to do be what their man apparently really wants.
              And bear in mind that as I said a lot of those guys are going to porn because they have already pitted against other guys and have seen that they are up against odds they cannot meet.

              I agree! Not only someone with a huge cock, but someone that isn’t even all that attractive sleeping with attractive young women. It feeds into male fantasy and ego.
              And you know what else feeds male that male fantasy? Women that actually tell men what amounts to “size matters”.

              We can’t pretend that this “male fantasy” is something men concocted all on their own with no imput from women whatsoever.

              we are actually saying a lot of the same things. although I get the impression you think these are positive things while I don’t.
              I’m interested into getting to the root of them and talking about them while you seem to be interested in demonizing them (the ideas and the men) as soon as they appear.

            • You said: “Well as I said it’s an “idea” that women want large penises. Yes there are plenty of women that say that is not the case but at the same time the idea gets reinforced by women (not too different from having men who don’t embrace the ill treatment of women in some porn while there are other men who do embrace the ill treatment of women in some porn).”

              I am sorry but a woman who says she perfers a big penis is the same as a man that says he likes big breasts. It is not the same thing as men choosing to embrace or not embrace ill treatment of women in porn.

              BUt considering the fact that porn is largely made FOR men BY other men, how are women to be blamed for what shows up in it? I really don’t get that. Porn is heavily influenced by male desire first and most! And it’s women’s fault if there are a lot of big penises in the adult flims???

              You said: “I can agree with that. But please don’t take that to mean that these guys are all just taking the easy way out. A lot of these guys have been out in the dating world, competed against other men, and have lost out. For such guys it’s not, “I’m not even going to try I’m just going to go to the porn.”, but “I’ve been trying and failing for a long time, I’ll take this bit of comfort where I can get it.””

              I understand that. I do. I understand there are a lot of lonely men out there that use porn as some kind of “comfort”. But I also think that is still taking the easy way out.

              You said: “And you know what else feeds male that male fantasy? Women that actually tell men what amounts to “size matters”.

              We can’t pretend that this “male fantasy” is something men concocted all on their own with no imput from women whatsoever.”

              In porn? Yes, I think the majority of it is primarily male fantasy concocted by men. In my personal experience, men seem more obsessed with size of things than women. You see it in the way a lot of me obsess over women’s body parts and you can see it more clearly in things like porn that are still mostly heavily influenced by male desire and opinion first. I know there are men that don’t obsess over body parts. I am not saying *all* men do this. But in general, men have a history of being concerned with size both regarding women and themselves in a manner that makes our sexual organs having to be bigger then perhaps they were orginally designed for.

              You said: “I’m interested into getting to the root of them and talking about them while you seem to be interested in demonizing them (the ideas and the men) as soon as they appear.”

              I don’t think I have demonized men at all. I never said men that watch porn are bad or anything like that! And I think this comment directed toward me is very unfair.

              I simply don’t believe how men interact with porn is exactly the most healthest. But that doesn’t mean I think men are bad.

            • “I don’t think I have demonized men at all. I never said men that watch porn are bad or anything like that! And I think this comment directed toward me is very unfair.”

              You’ve demonized men and porn a lot in your comments, why do you think I’ve been calling you out for it? Take notice when multiple men are saying you’re demonizing. Remember the part on why men don’t open up to women about porn? Because of experiences like this. You’ve actually stated what men think, don’t you see how your comments can be seen as demonizing? Maybe you’ve been meaning to say more that it’s your personal belief or feelings, but some comments are ambiguous and it really does appear like you think you know what men think, and you’re telling us what we think, and it’s very very very negative.


              Hey I get why it’s fun for guys to be drooling over hot pornstars while “making love” to their own partners. He gets the best of both worlds. And she gets it reinfornced to her that she isn’t good enough for him but she should be all willing and happy to please him sexually even as he devides his attention between her and porn. I guess this is what a lot of guys want sex to be about now-a-days maybe? Because since real women don’t look like the women men really want, what could be wrong with looking at porn to make it more fun while using your partner’s body parts to finish the job. The best of both worlds I guess? Is that what men are saying?”

              You portray women as these innocent people who men use for sex, how bad it is for women to deal with porn whilst men can justify all their negativity because male desire trumps all. How is that not demonizing men?

            • And it’s women’s fault if there are a lot of big penises in the adult flims???
              I didn’t say it was there fault but if you want to talk about what has influence then yes I would say that women are adding to that influence. If you want to call that “fault” that’s up to you.

              I understand that. I do. I understand there are a lot of lonely men out there that use porn as some kind of “comfort”. But I also think that is still taking the easy way out.
              So watching porn as a comfort after striking out in the world of dating/relationships/sex is taking the easy way out? (Quick hypothetical: Would you also say that women that read romance novels are also “taking the easy way out”?) That is a part of why a lot of guys hide their watching when it’s for this reason. They came up up empty when trying to connect with other people and they are told its all their fault and when they go for some sort of alternative in search of comfort they are told they copping out.

              I don’t think I have demonized men at all. I never said men that watch porn are bad or anything like that! And I think this comment directed toward me is very unfair.
              You are regularly asking why guys egage in watching and even in the face of multiple guys (and I think a few women too) saying why they do it yes it does seem like you are focused on bringing it back to “but that harms women” it SEEMS like you are more interested in just calling the watching of such porn bad rather than wanting to know why guys watch it. That is what I meant when I said demonize and yes I do think that is a fair comment to direct towards you. If you don’t agree on the fairness of that we’ll just disagree then.

              I simply don’t believe how men interact with porn is exactly the most healthest. But that doesn’t mean I think men are bad.
              If that’s the case then I would think you’d be interested in the causes of that not very healthy interaction. I’ve been trying to offer one possible cause.

            • I simply don’t see this discussion going anywhere. Both of you think I am not listening to you and I am not left with the impression you are listening to me either.

              You both appear to be very sensitive to the idea of deominizing men yet you don’t seem to offer that same sensitivity in reponse to how women are demonized in porn as well or your personal demonizations of me. Women are suppose to be understanding and all smiles that men just seem to need porn no matter what the porn is doing to depict female bodies or sexuality. It’s apparently women’s fault that big penises exist in porn, although previously Danny admit that porn is mainly made for men, it’s women’s fault that they are debased in porn and apparently it’s women’s fault that men are lonely. What’s a poor man to do I guess right?

              Porn is here to stay so no matter what I say, it doesn’t really matter. It’s not like porn is going to go away. Men will always have and want porn. And real women will be accepted to accept it and even conform to it because that’s really what men want. And they will be told by their partners such fun lines like, “don’t worry hunny, I don’t expect you to look like that.”

        • “I think men love porn because porn doesn’t treat men the same way it treats women. You simply don’t see men put down to nearly the degree you see women put down. You simply don’t see men forced to do positions or acts that hurt them physically or make them have painfilled faces as much as you do with women in porn. You don’t see men called the level and amount of degrading names that get thrown at women regularly. Yes, porn very well may exsist that does just that to me. But it is not the majority and I know it’s not the majority of what the average guy is most likely watching. What the average guy is most likely watching is the stuff that is already mostly out there.”

          You seriously haven’t got a single clue as to why men watch porn, I seriously can’t believe how disconnected from reality you really are. You’ve had countless men tell you why they look at porn, myself included, yet still bury your head in the sand singing la la la, I, a woman, know what men think better than men.

          Do you just look for the most extreme porn n compare it to everything? The shit you talk about, I haven’t seen much, if any for years. Yet I as a man watching porn view women as lesser in your eyes, I degrade them, I want to dominate them n treat them like shit apparently. Get a clue Erin, the message YOU are sending to men that look at porn is that we’re beasts who don’t care about women, you are TELLING us what kinda porn we look at, you are telling us what we think, desire, feel, that we wanna dominate whilst missing the most important part of porn and why it’s desirable.

          WE like to see sex, we like to see women who are happy, willing, hell even initiating sex with men, we like to see a range of women because we’re not attracted to one thing.

          “There is a reason men that look like Ron Jeremey can have successful careers in porn and a reason you have to look like Jenna Jaminson to have a successful career in porn.”
          Yes, it’s called having a HUGE DICK much larger than the average male. It’s a novelty thing, do you think he’d get a successful career if it were 4 inchs?

          “What I have experienced is that a lot of men want to ignore the messages they indirectly send to women through the porn use. And a lot of the messages women get from men, based on what they like about porn, it sometimes is really painful and hard to take. It seems like all men really want to do is humilate wome nsometimes and make them secondary under them and that of coures, all guys want to bang 18-25 year olds girls. ”

          You wouldn’t believe how many messages many women take wrongly about porn usage, and sit there assuming to know what men want, what men think, what men desire. It’s offensive as hell just as if I was telling women what they think when they read 50 shades of porn, I can guess but I’m not gonna tell them what they are thinking.

          “Think men are great when they make a woman’s worth dependent on her age or breast size? Smile that men apparently need so many different visuals of different women to be satisfied enough with themselves?”

          No one can win with you can they, if they’re young it hurts you because of their youth n beauty, if they are old then they are a fetish, maybe everyone is attracted to different types, ages, sizes, personalities of women and they want to seek those they like? Porn could have 20 years of the most egalitarian nature and you would still probably find something to hate about it.
          I get it, there is a lot of bad porn, I hate it too and don’t watch it, But there is a LOT of good porn too. You’re blanket statements over what men watch, what men want are becoming sickening, seriously, you really need to start to learn what men actually want instead of what you think they want because I’ve never seen someone so wrong about men in my life. SOME men are like the way you think, but A LOT OF MEN are not.

          “How many men honestly believe that “granny” or “milf” (which doesn’t even seem to really show older women in it even) outshines the exsistance of how much youth and beauty in women is fetishezied through porn? ”
          Porn follows popular themes of what is beautiful, wanna know who pushes the youth is beauty ideal a lot, probably the most? Women’s magazines, women’s entertainment, the most photoshopped and digitally retouched images of women come from media made FOR women. Yes there is a lot of porn of the 18-25 market, and that is partly because society itself pushes that market as the most beautiful, it’s a cycle that reinforces each other, women are doing a hell of a lot to push youth n beauty to near godlike status. Change those attitudes and you’ll probably find porn itself changes to match along with it. Or do you think men don’t pay attention when we here some women constantly talking smack over another woman’s looks and how that can affect our own view of what is beautiful? Porn is one aspect of society, society itself needs a change of view to diversify beauty but even then do you honestly think men only find that age range attractive? Maybe a lot of porn use is for fantasy about women we’ll never have, but don’t assume it’s women we actually want. Many of my fantasies I DO NOT WANT TO BE REAL EVER.

          Seriously ladies, gents, stop comparing yourselves to fantasies, if you’re taking messages from porn then do you take the message your partner wants to be James Bond with his life in danger constantly? Or when he plays games, do you take it as a sign he wants to kill people? Or is it because you’re insecure already and it’s just feeding your insecurity because you’re looking for it? There are probably a million messages you can take from someone looking at porn, the only constant one is the desire to see nudity n sex. Some fantasies will be desireable in reality, and some won’t.

          “It seems like all men really want to do is humilate wome nsometimes and make them secondary under them and that of coures, all guys want to bang 18-25 year olds girls. But if you as a woman think those things suck, men will tell you how horrible you are. ”
          I think they suck, I don’t think you’re horrible, I don’t think it’s bad to say you feel those things are horrible. What I think isn’t good is telling men that is what THEY want, what THEY desire. I don’t care if you say you feel that is what men want, I’ll probably try to tell you I don’t want that and prove you wrong, I’ll empathize n feel bad that porn like that exists because I really do hate that shit, but what stirs me up is when you directly state that is what men want. I can understand why you feel that way but truly I hope you can expand your mind on the subject and see the diversity in porn, even if you still hate it try to understand the basic desire of porn being the desire to see nudity and sex, no overriding desire to see humiliation, degradation, just nudity n sex.

          My watching n supporting of some porn, doesn’t mean I support all porn. Just as you watching The Notebook doesn’t mean you support some extreme hate KKK film, can you understand that?

          • Actually you’re quite clearly womansplaining about men’s experiences, desires, porn usage, etc. If that helps clear up why it’s so annoying.

          • You said: “Do you just look for the most extreme porn n compare it to everything? The shit you talk about, I haven’t seen much, if any for years. Yet I as a man watching porn view women as lesser in your eyes, I degrade them, I want to dominate them n treat them like shit apparently. Get a clue Erin, the message YOU are sending to men that look at porn is that we’re beasts who don’t care about women…”

            Not at all. All I have to do is “google” the word “porn” and click on the very first link and see degrading porn. It’s not hard to find. You don’t have to dig through a bunch of porn to find it. Most porn is largely degrading more then it isn’t. I have even heard other men say the same. Or say that they would never treat a woman how they see them treated in porn.
            I don’t think the issue is as black and white as you think I think it is. I don’t think you are a beast that doesn’t care about women. But porn certainly depicts men as just that, being beasts that are there to get their jollies first. And the women are portrayed as insatiable sex dolls. I do think porn degrades women. I’m not sure why you find that so offensive if I believe porn is degrading to women.

            You said: “WE like to see sex, we like to see women who are happy, willing, hell even initiating sex with men, we like to see a range of women because we’re not attracted to one thing.”

            Yes, I do think a part of porn is about seeing happy, willing, sexually available women having sex. However, it’s all on male terms. Male desires. Male pleasure first. The woman is suppose to this 100% happy, willing and sexually available playmate dynamite that just LOVES everything that is happening to her even if what is happening to her wouldn’t even bring a real woman pleasure. Porn is mostly on male terms. It’s not about seeing happy, willing women in their own sexuality. It’s about seeing happy, willing women as a performance for his male pleasure first. she just LOVES sex so much and she just LOVES everything he is doing to her even if what he is doing isn’t really that pleasurable in real life for a real woman. That’s the problem. that’s the disconnect. Porn isn’t about creating an environment for a woman to be herself sexually. Its about creating an environment where the porn actress is a caricature of herself. One that is completely dedicated to his sexual fulfillment and loves that role without any other needs, emotionally or even physically of her own. Her moans are for his heightened pleasure, her reactions are for his heightened pleasure, her body is for his heightened pleasure. Everything about her is really for the man’s heightened pleasure. Not because men want to celebrate female sexuality but because men want to celebrate male sexuality and women having a never ending appetite for the kind of sex men want through porn. Which is generally completely devoid of real intimacy, connection and sometimes even real pleasure for the woman. It’s certainly devoid of any of what her needs may be physically or emotionally.

            You said : “No one can win with you can they, if they’re young it hurts you because of their youth n beauty, if they are old then they are a fetish, maybe everyone is attracted to different types, ages, sizes, personalities of women and they want to seek those they like? “

            It’s not about what hurts me. It’s about what the industry largely represents and how it represents different kind of women. Women that don’t fit the stereotypical ideal of beauty become fetishes. The industry is largely made up of young and beautiful women. Do you think that sends a positive message to women?

            You said: “Porn could have 20 years of the most egalitarian nature and you would still probably find something to hate about it.”

            But it doesn’t, does it. Porn does not have anything egalitarian about it right?

            You said: “Porn follows popular themes of what is beautiful, wanna know who pushes the youth is beauty ideal a lot, probably the most? Women’s magazines, women’s entertainment, the most photoshopped and digitally retouched images of women come from media made FOR women. “

            Oh don’t worry! I have my issues with that industry too. But that is NOT what this subject is about.

            You said : “Change those attitudes and you’ll probably find porn itself changes to match along with it. Or do you think men don’t pay attention when we here some women constantly talking smack over another woman’s looks and how that can affect our own view of what is beautiful? “

            Oh, I understand now. It’s women’s fault that men like the things they like.

            You said: “Porn is one aspect of society, society itself needs a change of view to diversify beauty but even then do you honestly think men only find that age range attractive?”

            I think men of all ages spend the most time probably looking at a very limited age group of women. I don’t think most 40 year old men are looking at porn of 40 year old women. I think a lot of men from 18-40+ are probably looking at the same 18-25 year old women. But their wives and gfs are suppose to smile and act like this is a wonderful thing.

            You said: “I don’t care if you say you feel that is what men want, I’ll probably try to tell you I don’t want that and prove you wrong, I’ll empathize n feel bad that porn like that exists because I really do hate that shit, but what stirs me up is when you directly state that is what men want. I can understand why you feel that way but truly I hope you can expand your mind on the subject and see the diversity in porn, even if you still hate it try to understand the basic desire of porn being the desire to see nudity and sex, no overriding desire to see humiliation, degradation, just nudity n sex.”

            And I hope you can expand your mind and see that there really isn’t all that much diversity in porn.

            You said: “My watching n supporting of some porn, doesn’t mean I support all porn. Just as you watching The Notebook doesn’t mean you support some extreme hate KKK film, can you understand that?”

            I think it’s very easy for men to blow porn off because men don’t get treated nearly the same way in porn that women do. I think it’s easy for men to accept porn because porn is largely about male pleasure first.

            But I have had this conversation with men before Archy. And I have asked them to show me what they consider not degrading to women regarding porn. And when they showed me something they didn’t consider degrading to women, it broke my heart because it seemed SO degrading. I don’t think men get what it’s like and I don’t think they understand what it feels like to see women represented and treated the way they are in ALOT of porn because porn simply doesn’t treat men nearly the same way nearly as much . And that is the reality. And because men get sexual pleasure from porn, that is ultimately what is important to them.

            If women had a multi-billion dollar industry that was all about women exploiting men purely for money, I think men would finally see how it felt to be so marginlized and misrepresented. If in this industry/media, the women weren’t have sex with the men but hwere mearly using them for the money, and the men were protrayed ad LOVING giving their money to these women even at his expense, if these men were called names, slapped around, or simply just target for how big his wallet was, I think men would begin to understand how it felt to see your gender represented in porn. But there is no such industry that exists.

            In general, men don’t want to be used for money and women don’t want to be used for sex. So if you made an industry out either of these in which the other gender caters completely to the other gender’s fantasy, you will see a lot of ugly stuff.

            • “But it doesn’t, does it. Porn does not have anything egalitarian about it right?”
              Depends what you watch! Some is egal, some isn’t. Overall? Probably male focused with a shifting trend towards egalitarian.

              “Not at all. All I have to do is “google” the word “porn” and click on the very first link and see degrading porn. ”
              Define degrading in this case. First link I found was pornhub, looks mostly pro porn. Lot’s of 3some’s on the front page, the descriptions of the videos I find degrading for some. I wouldn’t say all is degrading, the majority doesn’t appear to be degrading but our definitions of degrading could be different. One video focuses purely on her pleasure if that helps. Every male shown appears to be of a cut body, and good looking. Every female appears to be the same as well, some with fakebreasts, some without.

              Amateur porn in google is showing me far more egalitarian content, and a wider variety of body types too. This is what I mostly watch, which is why I don’t see anywhere near the degrading content you probably see. Pro porn has quite a lot of degrading content as I’ve said, but pro porn isn’t all porn, does that make sense?

              “However, it’s all on male terms. Male desires. Male pleasure first. The woman is suppose to this 100% happy, willing and sexually available playmate dynamite that just LOVES everything that is happening to her even if what is happening to her wouldn’t even bring a real woman pleasure. Porn is mostly on male terms.”
              You say it’s ALL on male terms, then it’s mostly on male terms, I find this confusing…In amateur couple porn it seems to be on everyones terms the most, the couple appears to have worked it out and it’s far more egalitarian, hence why I watch it. I do still look at videos with just a blowjob in them, or just her recieving oral, depends on my mood. I also watch videos of sensual massage that leads to sex, they’re quite sexy.

              “Porn isn’t about creating an environment for a woman to be herself sexually. Its about creating an environment where the porn actress is a caricature of herself. One that is completely dedicated to his sexual fulfillment and loves that role without any other needs, emotionally or even physically of her own. Her moans are for his heightened pleasure, her reactions are for his heightened pleasure, her body is for his heightened pleasure. Everything about her is really for the man’s heightened pleasure. Not because men want to celebrate female sexuality but because men want to celebrate male sexuality and women having a never ending appetite for the kind of sex men want through porn. Which is generally completely devoid of real intimacy, connection and sometimes even real pleasure for the woman. It’s certainly devoid of any of what her needs may be physically or emotionally. ”

              If you view it from that angle then of course you’ll see it as degrading. I agree that pro porn largely has that view, amateur porn though has a lot of the stuff missing from it. The moans are often real, both male n female get pleasure, there is intimacy and real pleasure, hence why I like it. Why do you keep saying men don’t want to celebrate female sexuality? I want to celebrate it, I want to share it, I want both male n female to get off, get full pleasure. I like hearing moans yeah, but I like hearing them because I want to know she’s feeling pleasure too, it’s a turn on to know she’s being turned on. Fake moans aren’t a turn on, if she’s moaning and doesn’t look like she’s feeling pleasure then ughh.

              “It’s not about what hurts me. It’s about what the industry largely represents and how it represents different kind of women. Women that don’t fit the stereotypical ideal of beauty become fetishes. The industry is largely made up of young and beautiful women. Do you think that sends a positive message to women? ”

              Are you mainly against the pro paid-for industry, or ALL porn? I hate most of the pro paid-for industry for many of the things you say, hence why I like amateur because it’s often far different. When I say porn, I mean ALL porn, including user created content. The majority of porn today is probably sexting, 1 in 5 by the age of what 18 have sexted, lots of adults sext, I’ve sexted, that’s porn. The pro industry isn’t the entirety of porn, it’s just the most easily accessed porn due to it’s size, online presence and distribution.

              “Oh, I understand now. It’s women’s fault that men like the things they like. ”
              Could partly be a reason, still unsure of it. I do think women influence what is seen as beautiful by men.

              “I think men of all ages spend the most time probably looking at a very limited age group of women. I don’t think most 40 year old men are looking at porn of 40 year old women. I think a lot of men from 18-40+ are probably looking at the same 18-25 year old women. But their wives and gfs are suppose to smile and act like this is a wonderful thing. ”
              That is a problem indeed. I think both porn and the rest of society needs to diversify what is beautiful. I’ve seen porn with older women in it and have found it quite sexy, can’t speak for other men though. The woman I am most attracted to at the moment is about 10 years my senior….

              “And I hope you can expand your mind and see that there really isn’t all that much diversity in porn.”
              Porn is HUGE, yeah there are a lot of stereotypes, but there is a hell of a lot of porn in a whole range of body shapes, sizes, ages, looks, etc. I can easily find porn of any type of body shape, size, age, look, but yes you have to use search engines to find it as the most popular stuff is quite limited in range.

              “But I have had this conversation with men before Archy. And I have asked them to show me what they consider not degrading to women regarding porn. And when they showed me something they didn’t consider degrading to women, it broke my heart because it seemed SO degrading. I don’t think men get what it’s like and I don’t think they understand what it feels like to see women represented and treated the way they are in ALOT of porn because porn simply doesn’t treat men nearly the same way nearly as much . And that is the reality. And because men get sexual pleasure from porn, that is ultimately what is important to them.”
              Could be right, can you give some examples?

              “If women had a multi-billion dollar industry that was all about women exploiting men purely for money, I think men would finally see how it felt to be so marginlized and misrepresented. If in this industry/media, the women weren’t have sex with the men but hwere mearly using them for the money, and the men were protrayed ad LOVING giving their money to these women even at his expense, if these men were called names, slapped around, or simply just target for how big his wallet was, I think men would begin to understand how it felt to see your gender represented in porn. But there is no such industry that exists. ”
              So is it the industry as a whole itself that represents the degradation, not really just the video on it’s own? If I watch a video of a guy n girl have sex, they both give each other oral, both have intercourse, both orgasm, camera focuses on both, both similar in looks, weight, age, etc, would you consider it degrading? I guess that is probably why there is a disconnect between what men say and what women think. Is it possible though to enjoy individual bits of porn, without even liking the industry? To be completely female positive, sex positive, enjoy certain porn, without women feeling degraded?

        • So… If men viewing porn aren’t being stimulated by all the alleged “objectification and degredation” (which apparently only you and a few other select women can see), then the men aren’t doing anything wrong, are they? YOU”RE the one who should stop looking at porn if all you see is degradation and abuse in it.

          Your interpretations and reactions = not our problem, or anyone else’s.

    • QuantumInc says:

      I can’t help but think of the feminist porn awards, hosted by Goodforher.com, which mostly sells vibrators. Most of the things getting awards goes to material that is at least somewhat gender-bending, but one of them went to a little site called “Art of the Blowjob” which features a busty red head sucking off a guy. Yes, I know, but if watch a video and compare it to a typical porn video there is a huge difference, and it’s not the penis (which is actually kinda small). This is what a blowjob looks like when the people involved actually love each other. They’ve been together for years before the website was started, and they got together as a couple and decided to show the world when a loving blow-job with artistic (although low-budget) cinematography looks like, and again it is a lot different from “mainstream” porn.

      To be fair there are a handful of companies that make most of the porn out there, and certainly most of the porn you might stumble upon on the internet, and for the most part these companies, “the porn industry” do have some problems with misogyny. There are whole websites with names like “Abused Teens” and so on, and guess which websites put out more advertisements?

      • Yeah there are some fucked up titles n productions.

        The art of the blowjob looks interesting, a lot of the amateur content I see is couple-produced and is from that perspective which is why it’s so appealing to me. Real girlfriends/wives and boyfriends/husbands turning each other on, both caring about the others pleasure, it’s as close as I can feel to being in a relationship whilst single and that is the major appeal of it. Not all of us desire “abused teens”.

      • My question is, why does porn infact have problems with misogyny? And why do people want to ignore that because a few low-key videos that might showing a “loving couple”. Why are so many people drawn more to the misogyny then the loving stuff? This is why I think there is a dark underbelly people don’t want to touch on yet. Maybe when porn use gets so out of control , which I personally think as already happened, maybe people will start to want to go where they try not to. But there is a reason so much hate for women porn exists. The reason is that is what the majority of porn consumers want to see. Porn producers don’t make porn that people don’t want to see. And if that kind of porn exists, and men are the largest consumers of porn, give women some respect and acknowledge that something isn’t right in Denmark. And don’t make it seem like women should love porn because you saw one clip of “granny sex” vs the thousand of clips of young girls getting their throats violated to the point where she is clearly in pain.

        • I am still waiting for someone to answer and directly respond to my original post. I thought it was a good one. I want to know to Roger, if porn doesn’t degrade women, then what does? And if porn doesn’t degrade women, then clearly shows, commericials and sitcoms about men that are idiot fathers and the likes of that surely aren’t degrading men either right?

          • J P McMahon says:

            Erin, You seem to be suggesting that the mere existence of porn degrades women. I have been to several museums and civil war battle sites that had real Confederate battle flags on display. Are they degrading to African American people by being in that display case? No one is forced to go there to look at them. I think porn is the same thing. If some guy is forwarding some nasty stuff to your computer without your consent, or an intimate friend is trying to get you to watch things you don’t want to watch, THEY might be trying to degrade YOU with porn. The idea that all women are being degraded by porn, is no more true than that men are being degraded by war and action movies which show men getting their asses kicked, ripped apart in various bloody ways, and blown up real good. Interestingly, guys love that kind of movie. No one has to watch them. Want to see women really degraded? Go to a country, I don’t have to name any because you know where they are, where women are forced by religious based law to be less than second class citizens or even human beings. Interestingly, porn is not as ubiquitous in those places as it is here.

          • Erin, the positions, treatment, camera angles etc that women do in het porn. Men do in gay porn[not just feminine bottoms, but masculine bottoms too], does that mean that gay porn degrades men?

          • Erin, you are courageous to take this on in the internet porn-soaked world that we live in. Porn is degrading to women because the female arousal and orgasms are always faked. I have yet to see a porn scene in which a woman had the engorged labia/vulva that would indicate real arousal. I know what that looks like because I’ve seen my own. The faking that female porn actors display is what real live men now expect in the bedroom.

            Show me a porn video that focuses solely on female arousal. It will never happen because it would be pretty boring to watch a guy’s head in between a woman’s legs for 20 minutes. Or a guy using a vibrator on a woman for that long. And nothing else. No penetration, no blow jobs, nada. When 50% of the videos are like that, I’ll buy in that porn is not degrading to women or destructive to real sex lives.

            For the record, I used to be a very pro-porn “sex positive” married woman. Unfortunately, my porn loving (now ex-) husband could not differentiate between the real and the fake. Now I’m porn-free and if I can’t find a man who is willing to be the same, I’ll stick with masturbation, thanks.

            Flame me all you want porn lovers, I’ve said all I have to say.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              I’m not going to flame you, I just feel really sorry for you. But in case you haven’t become too embittered, perhaps I can shine a ray of hope.

              1) I’ve seen porn videos with real female orgasms, but that’s probably because I don’t care for the fake stuff. They are out there, but you’re not likely to find one from one of the commercial studios.

              2) Do you really want to see a video that focuses solely on female arousal? Okay, you did ask for it: uncommonappetites.blogspot.com/2011/06/introducing-violet.html

              3) 50% of the videos? Why not just go to 100% of the videos if you’re going to set up unrealistic standards like that.

              4) Way to generalize from personal experience. You married the wrong guy; I’m glad you’re rid of him. But if you’re saying that every guy who watches porn is de facto like your ex, then you won’t mind if I likewise draw unsubstantiated conclusions about you, right?

              (btw, it doesn’t take every woman 20 minutes to get off from cunnilingus, but there are guys who are more than happy to put in the time)

            • “I know what that looks like because I’ve seen my own. ”
              Because your vulva is the same as everyone elses right?

              “Porn is degrading to women because the female arousal and orgasms are always faked.”
              Watch amateur porn of real women having real orgasms then? Look up Abby Winters, I believe that studio has a lot of real orgasms.

              “For the record, I used to be a very pro-porn “sex positive” married woman. Unfortunately, my porn loving (now ex-) husband could not differentiate between the real and the fake. Now I’m porn-free and if I can’t find a man who is willing to be the same, I’ll stick with masturbation, thanks.”
              I’m sorry you lost a husband like that, do you assume every man that looks at porn will be the same?

            • By that logic, war movies are degrading to military veterans because all the injuries, suffering, and death are faked. Got anything better?

            • Do you masturbate to military war veteran movies that are suffering from injuries and suffering Copyleft?

              I think almost everyone can agree that the goal of protraying a military veteran and the goal of a porn movie are two different things.

            • So, you agree that the complaint “porn is not an accurate portrayal of real life” is meaningless noise? Good; I agree.

            • I can’t really agree with anything you just said Copyleft, because I don’t undrestand it. Please don’t feed words into my mouth.

            • Kate, that is actually an increasing problem for people. From my own experiences, I have experienced how porn has shaped male sexuality. And from my experiences, it’s made a lot of men more selfish and less intuned with themselves much less with women. It’s strange because I am 31 and I grew up not having the internet around all the time. When I was in high school, it just started to come about and it was AOL dial-up. But in a very short and fast 10 years, I have seen how the conversations surrounding porn have changed and how it’s affected men by my own personal interactions with men. There was a time when porn wasn’t as important to men. There was a time when it was a magazine maybe once a month. There was a time when men said things like, “I only look at it once-in-awhile”. I can’t even remember the last time I heard a guy say that. Porn is now important to a lot of men and a part of their every day life in a way that the world simply has never experienced before. This isn’t just a problem for young boys growing up in an over media saturated world. It’s a problem for young and older alike. And it’s increasingly becoming more of a problem for women as well. Which is really sad since most porn is so heaviliy dominated in male fantasy, it seems a lot more women are more eager to adopt male fantasy then they are to figure out what they like on their own.

          • SOME porn degrades women, SOME porn degrades men, a lot doesn’t. It depends a lot on what you watch! Tell me what is degrading in Abby Winters movies?

            • I love when people say things like, “some porn degrades women, some porn degrades men.” Making it seem like porn is this egalitarian force with equal parts degradement of both genders. But that’s not really the truth in my opinion. Men are not as degraded in porn as women are. Not as often. Although I do think that porn can also degrade men.

              I think perhaps our ideas about what is degrading might also be different. I think it’s very easy for men to not really take into account the ways women are depicted that a woman herself might consider degrading. I think it can be hard for some men to understand why certain things are degrading to women in porn when they are enjoying the material they are viewing as well.

            • Sex before marriage is degrading to some people. Oral sex is degrading to some people, degradation and what we find offensive I guess is subjective. What you find degrading I might not consider degrading at all, I know there are some people I’ve known who find the idea of porn degrading, hell showing cleavage is degrading to them.

              You probably see more of what is degrading to women, and men can see more of what is degrading to men, that could mean porn is fairly equally degrading but we both see mostly our own genders degradation. I don’t think the working conditions for some production sets are great for either gender, it’s pretty damn hard to actually stay hard and perform like those guys do, and very often they’re simply an object, a penis, their role is to be the fill-in penis for guys to be in “his place”. I guess it depends on your views of what is degrading?

        • The amateur and “pro amateur” (pro companies trying to act amateur, gonzo angles) show a huge amount of couple based videos, there are plenty of pro movies trying to do the whole couples experience. I dislike much of the pro industry though as I can’t stand fakeness.

          Why does some porn have problems with misogyny? Find me a medium free of misogyny and misandry. It has a problem because some people are misogynist and like that stuff, some like to fantasize about it and quite frankly I’m guessing because there probably wasn’t a lot of variety in the pro industry and the misogynist shit was advertising, distributed more so it found more popularity. Most porn these days from what I can tell is produced direct for the internet and has a hugeeee variety of genres. It’s so diversified n big that you could never watch more than 0.001% in your lifetime I think. The genres vary a lot but they all have one thing in common, sex and/or nudity. It’s so big that you need categories just to sort through the mass of videos, hell you need search terms to find what you’re looking for. There’s no shortage of loving couple porn, most is amateur, a lot of the pro stuff though seems to be a whole bunch of stupid stories to be honest such as frat house, 3somes, the delivery man, and other situations that rarely ever happen (it’s fantasy afterall).

          “And if that kind of porn exists, and men are the largest consumers of porn, give women some respect and acknowledge that something isn’t right in Denmark.”
          Actually I believe it’s become about 50:50 in porn consumption, but yes there are a lot of people supporting bad porn, but there are also a lot of people supporting good porn. 5-10 years ago though I would have agreed with you far more, but I am witnessing a big change in porn content as every day people are producing their own. Many pro porn companies seem to pump out a lot of misogynist shit, but a lot of home/amateur people are producing good content and it’s popularity is rising.

          They say 1 in 5 people by the age of 18 are sexting, guess what, they’re producing porn, that’s a whole lot of porn being produced and do you think even 1/4 of that is misogynist?

        • Nick, mostly says:

          And why do people want to ignore that because a few low-key videos that might showing a “loving couple”.

          Erin, the fastest growing segment of the online pornography market is “amateur” videos hosted on tube sites for user-generated content. It’s more than a “few low-key videos” and they’re not difficult to find. Perhaps you’d be interested in Cindy Gallup’s project, MLNP.tv, which is committed to creating exactly the type of porn I imagine you wouldn’t find objectionable.

          You might also consider why it’s important for a woman to have an orgasm in porn videos. I mean, if it was all about using and degrading her, isn’t her pleasure entirely beside the point? Sure, the fantasy may be that he doesn’t have to work hard to get her off, but don’t neglect that the fantasy includes getting her off. I don’t see that as any different than the fantasy of a rich, powerful man rejecting his lascivious lifestyle to commit to a young woman who has nothing to offer but sexual naïveté and earnestness tinted with vulnerability. Neither are reflective of reality, but that’s not the point.

          You appear to have a very strong opinion that is strongly held, so I doubt anything a few internet commenter might write will dissuade you of it. Instead I would encourage you to read A Billion Wicked Thoughts to see what people are actually searching for, not what you assume them to desire. The researchers actually crunched the data (once again, stoking my envy!) and the results are a bit different than the cultural narrative with which we are all familiar.

          Btw, what exactly does it mean for an argument to be “PC” or “un-PC?” Can you label an argument as “PC” in good faith, or is it always used as a pejorative, a type of “ad hominem” against the argument itself? Does calling one’s own opinion “un-PC” gain it some credence, as if it were a brave act of truth-telling? I’m curious why it’s a term you frequently use in describing your arguments; is it important that you use that term or has it simply something of a rhetorical habit?

          • Nick, what does “amateur” exactly mean though? It seems that all it means are people having sex that don’t have the fancy set or camera work. It doesn’t necessarily mean “average people” having sex. I am sure that porn companies produce “amateur” porn of the stereotypes I talked about but just make it look amateur.

            To me, I get the impression that a number of you guys are saying, “Hey, this porn exists, the porn I think is positive, so the porn industry is A-Okay”. Just because there are people who are well fed in America, doesn’t mean there isn’t a world issue both in and out of America concerning hunger and how people use or abuse or waste food.

            I think the reason that it’s important to see the woman in the video have an orgasms, is still connected to male ego. Men feel even more good about themselves if they make a woman orgasm. But it’s not some aulterisitc move. It’s because it feeds his ego.

            You might want to consider that what is actually done to women in porn has very little to do with actually what gets women off and it muddy’s the waters further. Do men actually want to see what gets women off or do men only want to do what they want to do to a woman while she moans like it as the best thing in her life? If men wanted to really see things that really got women off, porn would be much different. SO it’s not really about getting her off. It’s about her acting like she is getting off to feed the fantasy of his ego.

            Here is a link you might find interesting Nick. Stephen Snyder, MD tackles the book A Billion Wicked thoughts himself. He even says, “Nevertheless, the authors’ work has important implications for the field of sex therapy.   Particularly in our current era — which might without too much exaggeration be called “The Age of Porn.”

            http://www.sexualityresource.com/the-strange-new-science-behind-a-billion-wicked-thoughts/

            But guess what Nick, based on that very book, “youth” apparently was the most popular sexual category searched. I don’t know but your comments made it seem like the research found unusual things. To me, it just seems to reinforce the points I was making.

            I use the term “un-pc” because I find that men become especially PC in their talks about porn. In ways that they probably aren’t practicing in the privacy of their own homes when no one is looking. I don’t think we’ve gotten to a point where men are being turly honest about their porn use. What they are looking at or how much they are looking at it.

            Despite the fact that the majority of porn is often about male pleasure and power over the female, it’s funny how often men like to talk about how egalitarian porn is when we all know it’s not. Whenever this topic comes up, a large chunk of men are so ready to say “I only look at the most respectful, sweet, kind love making porn. I despise degrading hardcore porn.” Yet, actual viewing habits contradict that. It appears that all men only look at the most respectful porn. Yet so much porn clearly doesn’t center around anything so kind and sweet.

            • “I think the reason that it’s important to see the woman in the video have an orgasms, is still connected to male ego. Men feel even more good about themselves if they make a woman orgasm. But it’s not some aulterisitc move. It’s because it feeds his ego.”

              That’s a very jaded view you have there…Do you honestly think most men don’t care about a woman’s pleasure for her own sake?

              “Whenever this topic comes up, a large chunk of men are so ready to say “I only look at the most respectful, sweet, kind love making porn. I despise degrading hardcore porn.” Yet, actual viewing habits contradict that. It appears that all men only look at the most respectful porn. Yet so much porn clearly doesn’t center around anything so kind and sweet.”

              Could be that a large chunk of men are not the majority, could be that they see the porn differently than you do, could be that you’re looking at the wrong data?

              “I use the term “un-pc” because I find that men become especially PC in their talks about porn. In ways that they probably aren’t practicing in the privacy of their own homes when no one is looking. I don’t think we’ve gotten to a point where men are being turly honest about their porn use. What they are looking at or how much they are looking at it. ”
              Because so many women have already made up their mind, they will mind-read men and TELL men what they think whilst actively ignoring what men say. There’s no point telling women about our fantasies when you don’t believe them, just as you did in saying actual porn habits are different and telling us we aren’t being honest with you, we’re lying to show it’s PC.

              “Despite the fact that the majority of porn is often about male pleasure and power over the female, it’s funny how often men like to talk about how egalitarian porn is when we all know it’s not. ”
              We’re saying a lot of porn is, a lot isn’t but a lot IS. You say “when we all know it’s not.”, yet you have more people telling you different. When you say we, you really mean you and a few other women, it doesn’t include me, or nick, or others who are disagreeing with you. It’s basically “let’s face it, we (and by we I mean my opinion is right, your’s is wrong)”. You are TELLING us what WE look at, What WE think, when you are a female, you don’t seem to regularly look at porn, so how can you possibly even begin to understand what we do, think, feel? Especially when you yourself don’t think men are being honest about their porn usage? You have this view of what porn is, yet others are telling you different and you’re ignoring them whilst stating what THEY do/think/feel. Can you see how that is offensive?

            • Nick, mostly says:

              But guess what Nick, based on that very book, “youth” apparently was the most popular sexual category searched. I don’t know but your comments made it seem like the research found unusual things. To me, it just seems to reinforce the points I was making.
              ….
              Whenever this topic comes up, a large chunk of men are so ready to say “I only look at the most respectful, sweet, kind love making porn. I despise degrading hardcore porn.” Yet, actual viewing habits contradict that.

              Your argument was that most men are consuming degrading, violent porn. It turns out most men are actually consuming fairly vanilla porn, albeit skewed to a younger age actress. How does that reinforce your points?

            • No, my argument wasn’t just that men were consuming degrading violent porn. I never said, “my arguement is just about violent degrading porn.” I have also talked about how women are catagorized like “treats” for the picking and that the disproportionate amount of youth obession in porn is also a way women can be degraded. Real women. From young women to older women alike. Because it is on the premise that age and looks are the most important things about women. This is another form of degradation although more subtle then something violently degrading.

            • And let me add that the same amount of ageism doesn’t happen to men in porn that it does to women. The message? Women worth is dependent on their age. Men can be any age and be worthwhile and women can’t.

              Sadly, even younger women get older at some point and that means a new crop of young women need to come in to keep the men entertained. Us women sure must be disappointments to men with our aging and all. But at least you got all those young hot babes to oggle after and your faithful partner can smile beside you as she dries up into some whethered old bag that you probably wouldn’t look twice at if you weren’t already her husband/boyfriend.

            • I should clarify that I don’t mean “you” specifically. I am speaking in general terms.

        • “My question is, why does porn infact have problems with misogyny? ”

          Short answer: It doesn’t. You do. Your interpretation, your impression of “all porn everywhere,” is 100% your issue to deal with. Nobody has any obligation to make the world safe, friendly, and inoffensive to you and your personal standards.

          • I’ll remember that next time a guy as an issue with the way men are represented in media themselves. Such as all those sitcoms that make the father/husband out to be some kind of idiot.

          • It helps to try diversify at least. There are legitimate gripes Erin and others have brought up, I don’t agree with them being ALL or nearly always like that, but I do agree there is a hell of a lot of badly made porn. I skip over so many videos because of it, I cringe seeing the descriptions people make and think those people need to goto a class on how to respect women before being allowed to see them naked. It pisses me off a lot to see the degrading talk about people in the adult entertainment industry or sex industry.

    • Nick, mostly says:

      Roger, if porn isn’t fundamentally disrespectful toward women, why would you have to “keep searching until you find something ethical”? Why is it so hard to find porn that actually doesn’t disrespect women?

      Because porn isn’t marketed the same way other goods and services are marketed.

      • I don’t understand Nick. Porn is so easy to find. You google “porn” and bam, there it is. It’s not like you have to search through intricate webs of searches to find porn. It seemed to me that what Roger was saying was that you had to search through a lot of porn to find something “ethical”. Whatever “ethical” means to Roger in this case.

        • Nick, mostly says:

          Porn isn’t marketed the same as other goods and services. If I want grass-fed beef and free-range eggs, I know there is a Whole Foods that specializes in that, or the “organic” section of my local grocer. There are radio ads and billboards promoting such. Even if you’ve never had an interest in cage free, hormone free chickens you probably know where you can find some.

          The same is not true of pornography. If you want a specific type, ethically produced in this example, you need to do a bit more legwork. The people producing such pornography are typically couples or small studios without large advertising budgets. You’re not likely to have a window popup in your browser advertising ethical porn – the traditional, intrusive ways porn is advertised aren’t exactly compatible with the “ethical” message. So if you search for “porn” like you might search for “eggs” your top hits aren’t going to be for the free range stuff.

          • You aren’t answering my question. Roger made this point in his article: “That porn is fundamentally disrespectful towards women, and to enjoy porn is to be a misogynist. I used to assume this was true, and trying to reconcile my love of women with my enjoyment of porn was a challenge. Eventually I was relieved to discover that despite the presence of porn in my life, I didn’t hate women or want to treat my female partners badly. If the misogyny myth wasn’t true for me, then maybe it simply wasn’t true.”

            Yet Roger also talks about how he has to search through a fair amount of porn to find something “ethical”. We however don’t really know what Roger’s idea of “ethical” really is. But Roger believes it to be ethical. Why would Roger have to search so hard to find ethical porn, per his own idea of what ethical means, if porn wasn’t inherently degrading toward women? This is the question that no one is answering.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Why would Roger have to search so hard to find ethical porn, per his own idea of what ethical means, if porn wasn’t inherently degrading toward women?

              There is nothing “inherent” in porn. Porn is an art form. It can be degrading or it can be celebratory. It can be morally bankrupt or ethically responsible. The majority of porn is undoubtedly the former – produced by unscrupulous individuals who place profit over people, who use up so many actors until they have nothing left to offer and then turn them out. We are right to oppose them. But that doesn’t mean porn the art form is inherently degrading. This is the core of what I’ve been trying to impress upon you in this discussion – that porn is degrading only because the people who make it are depraved. In the hands of decent human beings porn can be something that debases neither the participants nor the viewers.

              This is the question that no one is answering.

              You aren’t understanding my answer. I’ll take the blame for not explaining it well enough, and try one more time.

              It is exceedingly easy to find the crap out there because they are pushing it in your face. If you search for “porn” the companies that come up are the ones who spend time and effort and money to make sure they are what you see first. They’re the ones who will install a virus in your browser to pop up their sites. Those are the companies who are driven by profit, not principle.

              The couple in Brooklyn making home-made videos because they enjoy and want to share their sexuality? They’re not advertising, they’re not hiring SEO experts to improve their page rank, they’re not paying affiliates to push people to their site. They’re just making their videos and posting them for others to stumble across. This is how most of the ethical porn out there is made today and you more or less have to know where it is. This is what Cindy Gallop is trying to change; she’s trying to make it easier to find ethically made pornography.

              That said, I’m wondering how hard Roger tried. If you search for “ethical porn” you get tons of sites discussing what would make porn “ethical,” some of which link to examples. It isn’t that hard to find; it only appears to be so compared to how ridiculously easy it is to find the crap.

            • Lots of bad porn can simply be popular in the search engines, what is popular or just heavily advertised is probably often bad to women but it doesn’t mean all porn is bad to women, which is what we’re all trying to say. Porn is just an artform and can be abused like any other.

  10. Well if people want to talk about the how and why behind why men watch a lot of porn let’s do so.

    Front and center a lot of men do it because the closest approximation to real intimacy they are getting in their lives. Now ideally this real intimacy would go beyond the physical (or at least the genital stimulation until climax portion of physical intimacy) but it often doesn’t because when you’re watching a video late at night there isn’t much that can be done for the empty space next to you after you’re finished.

    Does porn rewire its watchers? Possibly but then I wonder how did they become susceptible to the rewiring in the first place.

    • FlyingKal says:

      Good sex is both your right and it’s within your reach

      Well, not everybody has the same reach…

    • Front and center a lot of men do it because the closest approximation to real intimacy they are getting in their lives.

      AMEN, brother. It’s no coincidence that every possible avenue of sexual pleasure for men is so closely scrutinized and routinely condemned by our puritanical society–often with the open agreement and collaboration of some feminists!

      • Copyleft, why does a woman have to be “some feminist” if she doesn’t like porn? Can’t someone not like porn and have ideas independent from feminism or “puritanical society”? If you ask me, while we have routes in a puritanical society, our society seems increasing hedonistic more than anything else. Everyone is told “if it feels good, do it!”, “if if feels good, nothing is wrong with it”, “if it feels good, don’t let someone else shame you if you like it!”. That’s more of the cultural messages we receive now then anything purtaining to the puritanical. Of coures, women have to toggle between being sexy as long as they are “sluts”. Men do love sluts though because men love calling women sluts in porn. But no man really respect a slut. Funny how much we shame women for sexuality. Even in highly sexual material that uses name calling to dually shame women for their “slutish” ways even as a mainly male audience enjoys their sexuality.

        • “Men do love sluts though because men love calling women sluts in porn.”
          I watch porn muted, and hate any negative talk. The women I watch are not sluts in my eyes, they’re women having sex. I think anyone that thinks of them as a slut needs a solid metaphorical kick in the ass n needs to respect them. I hate people especially who will enjoy watching these women perform but don’t respect them, they’re doing you a favour, you should be fucking thankful you get to see something amazing and respect them. You don’t have to agree with their career choice or follow their footsteps but give them some damn respect! It pisses me off to no end and people calling them sluts shouldn’t even be allowed to watch them unless they pass a “respect people” class.

          “But no man really respect a slut. ”
          Say what? I hate the word slut. I get aggro at people that disrespect sex workers, strippers, porn stars, call them sluts etc. I’ve had friends I’ve gotten aggro at who have disrespected strippers, why disrespect them? What are they doing that is soooo bad? They’re stripping for money? Good for them, I hope they make heaps.

          The ONLY thing that worries me with “slutty” behaviour is the STD risk, fidelity, and possibly insecurity at being able to compare but quite frankly if the STD test is clean, she stays faithful, and she realizes I don’t have too much experience then I doubt I’d really care. As for friends it doesn’t bother me at all, why would it. I’d most likely care about what others say about her, but a “slut” can be anything from someone revealing too much, someone who talks friendly to another woman’s bf, to someone that sleeps around. Hell nearly every woman has probably been called a slut, so what is a slut to you?

          “Even in highly sexual material that uses name calling to dually shame women for their “slutish” ways even as a mainly male audience enjoys their sexuality.”
          They need to stop it, start using positive words. Beautiful woman blows man vs slut blows man, something nice, hell polite. The audience also is pretty close to 50:50 male/female these days I think, or at least a large amount of women are now regularly looking at porn.

        • “But no man really respect a slut.”

          Again with the mind-reading. Erin, you really need to get over this notion that you already know how men and think and feel about everything… especially when actual, living, breathing men are telling you differently!

    • Danny, most men begin looking at porn at pretty young ages. Not when they are 20+ and lonely because they aren’t in a relationship. Neither is porn something only lonely men watch. Plenty of men in relationships still look at porn. I DO understand why men look at porn. I don’t think men are “bad people” or hate women because they look. But I think the issues is a lot more complicated then men only turning to porn because they are lonely. And I think that while men don’t hate women just because they look at porn, there is still a lot of hate and meanness for women showcased in porn that men still respond to physically.

      • Do you think the men are turned on by the meanness, or that the meanness is there but the men are focused solely on the sex most of the time?

        There is one aspect I could see where maybe quite a lot of men want to feel in control, dominant, where she does what he wants BUT she WANTS to do it, she actually feels good about it. I’ve known a few women like that in life where they want a dominant partner, it turns them on to be told what to do in the bedroom, they get off from pleasing and the best partner for them would be someone who is dominant but also understands her needs and isn’t abusive with it. I feel this tendency myself a little bit but I am more a 50:50 person, I’d like a woman to do what I say but I also would do what she says in the bedroom, a mutual pleasure, if she isn’t happy or pleased I’d be annoyed and feel like I failed and I’d try work with her to find out how to make us both benefit. I want to share my sexuality, not dominate and take it all for myself. Some of the hottest porn I’ve seen is where the woman takes control, initiates, and they both get off.

        The meanness you describe makes me angry and I switch to other porn, there is some seriously degrading stuff out there and I personally don’t agree with it. Although apparently some people do like to be degraded, I don’t know why, but they like it, enjoy it, turns them on, they benefit from it, so I’m not sure I can say it’s totally bad but I definitely wouldn’t want it to be mainstream. Some could say being whipped is degrading yet the pain turns some people on, I don’t get anything from it though except that cringing feeling and wondering wtf is going on in their heads but eh, if they consent and want that then good luck to them. That’s more the BDSM n fetish stuff though, some of the extreme porn is really disturbing and I find it very hard to believe it’s beneficial to anyone and never ever wanna see it mainstream, and luckily it doesn’t seem to be too popular.

        • Yes, I think there are men that are turned on by the meanness. I think these men can be regular men out and about in the real world. Men that have loving wives/gfs or families even. Men that are nice and kind but enjoy seeing women treated a certain way behind closed doors.

          What people want to do in the privacy of their own bedroom is their business Archy. But the difference that comes in for me is a very public medium like porn and how it protrays male and female sexuality. I see nothing wrong with you wanting to dominate your partner in your own bedroom if that is what she wants too. However, there are certain ramifications when you see these things displayed in media and kicked up about 10 notches to make the fantasy even more strong.

      • Nick, mostly says:

        Have you read B.F. Skinner’s utopian novel Walden Two? One of the interesting ideas he presents in that novel is sexual “play” between adolescents.

        I think you’re drawing the wrong conclusion in the question of “puritanical” vs “hedonistic.” First, let’s be clear, hedonism isn’t promoted by society. We may call the relatively liberal sexual license “hedonism,” but it’s not the same thing. And a Nike slogan does not a cultural attitude make.

        Instead, look at the battle over sex education. Look at the fights about public nudity. It’s not a question of one winning out over the other; we’re constantly bombarded with conflicting messages about sexuality, none of which present it in a healthy manner. The message we send to kids is pretty much, “don’t do this thing that everyone is really obsessed about doing, because you’ll DIE!!!” It’s no wonder we’re conflicted about sex.

      • Danny, most men begin looking at porn at pretty young ages. Not when they are 20+ and lonely because they aren’t in a relationship.
        None of which has anything to do with why guys would go to porn once they reach their 20s and are lonely. Please don’t think that just because a guy is lonely and watching porn as a replacement for (physical intimacy) doesn’t mean that he just discovered it after he got that old and felt lonely.

        That’s like saying that since a person committed suicide with a gun in their 20s it indicates that he/she didn’t know guns existed until they reached that age and became suicidal.

        Neither is porn something only lonely men watch. Plenty of men in relationships still look at porn.
        I agreed….which is I why never said lonely men make 100% of porn watchers.

        I DO understand why men look at porn. I don’t think men are “bad people” or hate women because they look. But I think the issues is a lot more complicated then men only turning to porn because they are lonely.
        Really? So as a person that has quite literally never been in that position and as far I know from talking to you here can never be in that position (that of a lonely man) you understand why men look at porn to the point that you are sure that it’s more complicated than that?

        Well in some cases I think you’re right. But thankfully I have enough lived experience to know that loneliness actually is a reason that at least some men watch porn.

        And I think that while men don’t hate women just because they look at porn, there is still a lot of hate and meanness for women showcased in porn that men still respond to physically.
        True. But I thought this was a conversation about why men watch porn. I offered an answer and you seem to have decided that it’s not valid.

        Thanks.

        • You said: “None of which has anything to do with why guys would go to porn once they reach their 20s and are lonely. Please don’t think that just because a guy is lonely and watching porn as a replacement for (physical intimacy) doesn’t mean that he just discovered it after he got that old and felt lonely.”

          I know! That’s what I am saying. Men aren’t only looking at porn because they reached a certain age and are lonlely. Most men start a relationship with porn very early in their young lives.

          You said : “Really? So as a person that has quite literally never been in that position and as far I know from talking to you here can never be in that position (that of a lonely man) you understand why men look at porn to the point that you are sure that it’s more complicated than that?”

          Are you kidding me? I never been lonely or wanted man companionship? Give me a break. I never experienced rejection either right? Or if I have experienced rejection is was much less than the rejection you experienced too right? Have you ever been in the position of being a lonely woman Danny?

          You said: “True. But I thought this was a conversation about why men watch porn. I offered an answer and you seem to have decided that it’s not valid.

          Thanks.”

          I didn’t say it wasn’t valid. I said that that wasn’t the only reason men watched porn.

          • Are you kidding me?
            No I’m not.

            I never been lonely or wanted man companionship?
            Not the same as being a lonely man, which is what I said.

            Give me a break. I never experienced rejection either right?
            Sure I’ll give you the break but I never said you have never experienced rejection.

            Or if I have experienced rejection is was much less than the rejection you experienced too right?
            No just different.

            Have you ever been in the position of being a lonely woman Danny?
            No. But from the things that have been said in these posts (not just this one but pretty much most of the posts around here at GMP about sex, dating, relationships, etc…) there are differences between male loneliness and female loneliness.

            How about this. Maybe we are talking about two different sets of men that watch porn for different reasons?

            • You said: “Not the same as being a lonely man, which is what I said.”

              Help me understand then. Is being a lonely man more painful?

              You said: “No just different.”

              How so?

            • No being a lonely man isn’t more painful than being a lonely woman. It’s different from being a lonely woman. (I don’t think that can even be measured and even if it could it would be pointless to do so, just as pointless as the general “do men or women have it worse” arguing when it comes to overall gender oppression.) Now as for how so here is what I’m thinking.

              Even if we just limit the loneliness to sexual fulfillment look at the way that men and women are treated differently when it comes to sex.

              Men are “allowed” (more like expected or demanded) to want sex as sex is treated like an essential part of being a man.

              Women are “allowed” (more like expected or demanded) to not want sex as sex is treated like the antithesis of being a woman.

              This plays out in the diffent types of sexual shaming that men and women face. Women being slut shamed for daring to have active sex drives, men being virgin shamed for daring to not have active sex drives. Although I think it is worth noting that when women are shamed over wanting sex they are at least still acknowledged as women. The “wrong kind” of women mind you, but women nonetheless. On the other hand when men are shamed over not wanting sex their very manhood is called into question.

              I think we see this difference play out in the male focus of porn. Believe it or not when it comes to watching porn as a substitute for an active sex life with women (heterosexual presumption here) it’s not a point of pride. It’s a point of shame. Oh if a guy is watching porn in addition to having lots of sex with women its cool. But a guy that is watching porn in place of having lots of sex with women is failure of a man. Now this mostly relates to guys that aren’t in relationships, not men who watch porn in general.

              Now with the sexual shaming the women face it makes sense that porn doesn’t cater too much towards women. Women aren’t supposed to be intersested in sex so why cater porn towards them? (Yes I know that’s bull but that is the “conventional wisdom” of it.)

              Now when talking about relationships in general and not just sexual relationships things get really tricky. When a desire for a relationship interects with gender we see that “allownces” flip a bit. A woman that wants to meet a guy and have a nice relationship with romantic dinners, long walks on the beach, someone to talk to and share her day with is “allowed” to openly desire those things because “that’s what women want” (again I know it’s bull to try to apply this universally to women, just pointing out what the “conventional wisdom” says). For a man on the other hand we’re not “allowed” such desires (as in we aren’t supposed to want that stuff, no said “conventional wisdom” says that we just want a trophy wife to have sex with and have our babies).

              The TLDR of it, the differences between the lonely man and lonely woman are the challenges each faces when it comes to the things they desire in relation to the expectations (nigh demands) that each faces when it comes to those things. One side doesn’t have it worse than the other but there are differences including the gendered differences in wanting sex and the gendered differences in wanting a partner to share one’s life with. (This is why that “Who has the power in dating?” post bothered me so much. It wasn’t just saying, “guys your bad experiences with women don’t represent the way all women act and also bear in mind that women are facing challanges too.” it was more like “guys your bad experiences with women didn’t happen because those guys over there didn’t face those experiences or overcame those experiences and women have bad experiences.” It wan’t even acknowledging the things guys face but instead was trying to tell us they don’t happen because there are guys that didn’t have those experiences or overcame them and they don’t happen because women have bad experiences.)

  11. As a person most would describe as a “porn director”, I cannot begin to describe how refreshing it is to read a well written and objective article such as this. Thanks, Roger.

    I would however beg to differ that porn is only “big, fast, athletic sex”. Whilst no one would argue that the vast majority of it is, it’s a generalisation akin to describing mainstream movies as “American crap with no plot and bad dialogue”.

    Having worked with a number of married and/or engaged couples, I believe it’s also possible to capture moments of genuine intimacy on screen, despite the explicit nature of content.

    Nevertheless, I think you’ve hit the nail on the had with the article and I take my hat off to you, sir.

    I’m not usually one for “spamming” comments, but I genuinely would love to hear yours or your readers opinions on our own work. The following link is on Vimeo, so it’s safe-for-work (well, depending on where you work….). In the context of Roger’s article, let us know what you think, guys. Have a great day. https://vimeo.com/48207390

  12. The Blurpo says:

    Porn its just fiction, nothing more, nothing less. Yes to much of it can be unhealthy and addictive, but almost everything is. Internet is also addictive, so is TV, so is youtube, so are games, drinking, gambling, reading, sex, food, smoking ect. To much of everything is unhealthy.
    There are good porn and bad porn outhere, just like there are good and bad movies, good and bad books, good and bad food, good and bad sex, good and bad music ect. The trick lays in finding what you like, not following the masses. Some may like Bono, some go crazy for Britney Spears others for none of them. Degustibus.

  13. Roger, firstly a tip of the trilby to you sir, it is rare that someone attacks this issue with the sharp arrow of reason. However, I don’t think you are giving today’s younger generation enough credit, every piece of media coming at today’s younger generation is sensationalized, and most learn to take it with a pinch of salt. Additionally, discussions about sex are far more liberal in the modern family, when sex was more taboo, people were more inclined to misunderstand the nature of sex. Now, with the rise of neo-feminism, I can sit around with girls and talk about what they do and don’t like in bed.

    At the end of the day, one must realise, that although hard-core demonstrates a often misogynistic display of sex, just because some mean copy it in the bedroom doesn’t mean it is causal. Perhaps for some men it has always been that way.

    Lastly, Nathan I like the trailer, edited very well! Thanks dude.
    Ladies and gentleman another example that adult entertainment is not all bad, the new genre of cinematic erotica is heading in a different direction, which we must applaud. I personally want to see into more peoples bedrooms! :))

    Carlos

    • How about people just have more sex between themselves then more people watching more sex of other people have sex lol? Wouldn’t that actually be better? Why such encouragement of people watching more sex when they could be having it?

      • I agree, I’d rather be having sex than watching it. Maybe make porn with my partner that we can both enjoy but I think I’d be too busy with her. What turns me on the most is a partner naked and seeing, hearing, n feeling her pleasure. Porn can’t hold a candle to that, it’s just something I personally use to make the nights a bit less lonely when I am single. My desire for porn drops away when I am into someone or seeing someone.

        But for some I guess it could be quite hot to watch porn together? Good luck to them I guess.

      • J P McMahon says:

        Erin, If your avatar is a real picture of you, then you appear to be a very attractive person. You may be assuming, like many good looking people do, that everyone has access to a partner for some zesty physical activities. That is not the case. Imagine looks as money. Some folks out there could buy a brand new Porsche and drive it off the lot. They could also get a Honda, or even a Prius, or a used pick up truck. But other folks can’t even afford a 500 dollar hoopty mobile. Don’t assume that because someone is in a lower league, that there are plenty of possible partners in that league with them. Watching other people have sex on video, or even work a stripper pole, is the best that some people can do.

        • J P, a tiny, half-inch picture of my face doesn’t do justice in telling my sotry. You are not the first person to make a comment about my “picture”, as if that should have any baring on my opinion. I don’t want to get into how wrong you are about me but don’t think you know a person’s experiences or a person just because you see a small segment of them in a tiny window.

          I understand that there are men out there that are lonely and don’t know how to relate to women. I understand why they turn to porn. I get it, really I do. I just don’t think it’s “healthy”. Would these men be better off spending time looking at porn or going to resources that could actually each them how to get a real partner in their live? Even if she doesn’t look like the women in porn?

          • J P McMahon says:

            Erin, Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Those “resources” that are available that can help a man find a “real partner”. Run those by me. Do you mean the commercial services that try to find you a mate through the internet? I have a recent post on the GMP on that BS. On this site and in real life, every time I see the idea that maybe friends could try to hook a brother or sister up like in the old days, it gets played as “I don’t do that. Go to match.com or facebook.” Easy out, but technology is supposed to make things easy, isn’t it?
            And as far as looking at porn being “unhealthy” , I would like to hear about a healthier way to deal with crawling into an empty bed night, after night, after night. Praying? Another hobby? My guy friends that find themselves alone every night have the same advice. “Drink more.”
            And I’m sorry I brought up your picture. But other than your posts, it is all I know about you, and really I don’t even know that because it could just be a random picture of someone else. If you don’t want it to be part of the discussion, get rid of it.

            • I shouldn’t have to get rid of my picture to avoid assumptions about who I am or what life experiences I might have. Neither should anyone else that has included a picture of themselves. And lots of people at GMP have included a picture to put a face with their name. Not so people could use their picture as judgement about their experiences. People are always much more dimensional then that right? Why box yourself in by assuming you know someone by a picture?

              Sites like GMP is a good start. GMP seems to bring a level of conversation that other sites populated by men just doens’t. But these avenues can come in many forms. Internet, books, mentors that reflect the kind of relationship that man might be looking for. Whether they brothers, fathers, uncles, grandfathers. It’s been my experience that men simply don’t talk about these things. I could be wrong, but for the men in my family, it’s true.

              If men spent more time seeking out material, or writing material about how to have real relationships with women, the kind of relationships they may really want, and they spent less time looking at porn, these men that struggle in their relationships with women just might have more success. But it doesn’t exactly seem very benefical to spend time looking at something like porn because you don’t have the relationship you may want. It might fix the short term problem for you, but after the porn is turned off, that man is basically back at square one right? He is still single. He is sill lonely. He will be horny another day only to watch porn again.

              I think there are many more healthier ways men can deal with such things. If he is into praying..sure! I know men who do just that. I have had men tell me about how they saw how porn was affecting them and they filled their life up with other stuff. Exercise, hobbies, friends, family……There are many things that can be done. POrn is not men’s only answer to lack of sexual or emotional intimacy.

              Further, how does a man’s lack of relationships jutisfy using a meduim that is more times then not, pretty dreadful to women? I certainly feel for men that are lonely. Women get lonely too! Heck, I hated dated for nearly 2-3 years. I didn’t have men beating down my door. But I didn’t turn to material that was about getting off on all the things I could shallow want a man for either.

              Men have other options, if they really want them.

            • “If men spent more time seeking out material, or writing material about how to have real relationships with women, the kind of relationships they may really want, and they spent less time looking at porn, these men that struggle in their relationships with women just might have more success.”
              Why do you assume they aren’t looking at both? I read material on how to find women, be attentiveness to their needs, how to make a decent boyfriend but it doesn’t exactly help when it’s hard to find a single woman here, let alone one I could date (as in a 10-15 year age range, most women I meet are 50+). Porn simply helps pass the time, I’ve learned quite a bit of what some women want from the comment sections of the GMP, even your own comments have helped educate me.

              “Men have other options, if they really want them.”
              There is a sense of privilege in saying that, explain to me how a disabled man has options when very few women find him attractive? How many unemployed men will make an attractive partner? What options are there for men who are aspergers or find it incredibly difficult to pickup on social cues? I’m sure there are options for everyone, but some of the options take years to produce results, and some people don’t really have many options. Not everyone is able bodied, have a job, etc and thus often get ruled out for dating or even sex. There doesn’t appear to be any shortage of men looking to seek education, just look at how popular the PUA material is, hell many use that because it’s often the only stuff that seems to work.

              There are men who live in areas where they outnumber women 5:1, like mining areas in Australia, their option is to move but that also harms their career. So for those guys it’s probably going to be better to look at porn n pass the time until they either earn enough in those areas to set themselves up elsewhere, or magically women start flocking to those places.

              I don’t think you grasp just how difficult it can be for men to find dates, just look at the thread about who has power in a relationship and the countless men telling stories of being rejected constantly, or how men have to send a huge amount of messages to get enough contact for a date, or the men who can’t get any replies anyway…

              Your advice, whilst it may help men getting dates, is as useful as telling single women to get into the gym, get a new style, haircut, etc in order to attract a man. Granted a lot of single men could probably use a makeover, a bit more confidence, etc but what about those who’ve done all that and still get no luck? Do they deserve to use porn?

            • Archy, I’m glad you read other material to try to understand women. I just find that a lot of men don’t seek out that kind of information as nearly as much as they seek out sexual titillation. I see a lot of men that know what they like sexually but know very little about what they like about women and what characteristics they would like her to have to make a good partner for him.

              I feel a bit humbled that my comments have helped you. We always fight and disagree so that was a bit of a shock.

              I certainly understand why men use porn. I understand that men get lonely. I understand that a disabled man, a man with asperges or a man even without a job are going to have more difficultly dating. I suspect a disabled woman, a woman with asperges would also have difficulty dating. I certainly understand why a man would turn to porn as an outlet. But I still don’t think porn is healthy. The desire for sex, love, companionship certainly are healthy. Using something to try and fill those needs is totally understandable. But that doesn’t mean I think it’s the greatest way to go about it. And it doesn’t mean I can say porn is a great thing. And while I recognize and understand these type of men have a hard time with women, there are tons of men out there that don’t have those troubles, that have a loving wife or gf, that still turn to porn too.

              I’m not sure PUA material is good stuff. i never found most of that stuff very sex/relationship positive to be honest.

              As for my advice, I am not giving advice about men changing their appearance. I am giving advice about men changing their mentality or how they go about interacting with women. To me, it’s a little different then advising a woman to go to the gym.

              I understand that men get lonely. I just don’t understand how that justifies the adult entertainment industry and the way it chooses to depict female sexuality and women in general. There is a lot of stuff that women are pitted against in that industry. Things that men may not “demand” but things that men certainly ask for or ask their partners to be more like or simply like themselves. It’s not easy seeing a whole industry that is largely based on male fantasy where the large chunk of male fantasy centers around a limited pool of women making any other woman that doesn’t fit into that pool a “fetish”. It’s not easy seeing how easily we call women names that shame their sexuality or show women being slapped around and treated violently. It’s not easy seeing how popular teen porn is for men. It’s not easy being a woman and doing your best to fight against the standards that the mainstream places on you and as you try to fight against these ideals, see your guy buy into them through other women. It’s not easy being told you need to ignore these messages and be this super confident human beings even in the face of your man repeatidly seeking out visual images of all these other kind of women that fit whatever mood he is in that day. I could go on but you get it, I’m sure. So what does a woman do ? She realize that no matter what she does, there will always be another woman he wants to see or masturbate to or enjoy even if your doing all kinds of “new” things with him and trying to be a sexually fun partner. She is sexually “one of the harem”. Nothing special. Just something different for the times when he doesn’t want to watch a sexy pornstar..or heck..maybe he wants to watch a sexy pornstar but use your body to get off.

            • I look at porn to help get me off basically. I don’t really give it too much thought. I appreciate extremely that men n women do that stuff on camera as it helps a lot with masturbation, it does give me some ideas which I have looked up in sex guides to see if it’s legit and if it is I’d try, and by legit I mean actually does help both mine and her pleasure.

              “And while I recognize and understand these type of men have a hard time with women, there are tons of men out there that don’t have those troubles, that have a loving wife or gf, that still turn to porn too.”
              I don’t understand fully why someone does the latter if they have a willing partner, some might be addicted, some might be assholes, some might just be polyamarous, some might just like the extra fantasy and then take that energy back into the bedroom, but one overlooked part is some will have wives who think they are loving, caring, but who really are blind to their partners desires. By that I mean those who either can’t or won’t have enough sex with their partner, once a month type stuff, these men might feel completely rejected n hurt, porn can be seen as a way to get off and feel some form of intimacy without cheating. Relationships are very complex beasts, I’m sure there are many women feeling unloved too. One reason I’ve heard is they use porn because they don’t wanna bother their partner at 3am who is asleep, I can see how that would work but only if the partner is ok with it.

              If my partner didn’t want me lookign at porn, I’d discuss it with her first to ensure it’s not a misunderstanding, and if she still didn’t want me to then I probably wouldn’t. I hope for my sake I find a partner with a high sex drive though:P I can’t see why I would look at porn though if I had a willing partner, whenever I have a crush or feel in love my desire to see other women plummets like a rock. I’d rather see my love…

              “I understand that men get lonely. I just don’t understand how that justifies the adult entertainment industry and the way it chooses to depict female sexuality and women in general. There is a lot of stuff that women are pitted against in that industry. Things that men may not “demand” but things that men certainly ask for or ask their partners to be more like or simply like themselves.”
              I don’t think it justifies anything really, especially the bad stuff in porn. I think it’s completely fine though for single people to look at GOOD porn. I’ve actually done stuff with a friend overseas on webcam and it was 100x better than porn, I guess I could we were porn to each other, sexting? Helping each other get off as we’re both single. I guess I am a pornstar to her, but it was a mutual thing, neither of us were degraded.

              “It’s not easy seeing a whole industry that is largely based on male fantasy where the large chunk of male fantasy centers around a limited pool of women making any other woman that doesn’t fit into that pool a “fetish”. It’s not easy seeing how easily we call women names that shame their sexuality or show women being slapped around and treated violently. It’s not easy seeing how popular teen porn is for men. It’s not easy being a woman and doing your best to fight against the standards that the mainstream places on you and as you try to fight against these ideals, see your guy buy into them through other women. ”
              I agree, I hate the slapping etc but then again if it’s BDSM then they like it. I don’t understand how or why they like it but I guess we all differ in what we like.

              The whole teen porn thing, I have a feeling media as a whole has quite a bit of blame here. Older teenagers are portrayed as the ideal beauty, I feel it’s mostly physical in nature. From 18ish to 25 the human body is still very taught skin, gravity hasn’t had much of an effect, usually the skin is still ok but after that aging kicks in and is sped up by that awful pasttime of tanning so if you’re looking for the hottest bodies then yeah teen or early 20’s, “college” porn is the best bet. That said I have seen plenty of women in their 30’s, 40’s who look fantastic, they are 10-20years older than me and I think they’re beautiful. I prefer to see women around my age or within 5-10 years though as older than that it doesn’t feel like they’re of a similar maturity range to me? I dunno how to describe it, the age difference gets too big and they’re of a different generation, feels like there isn’t much of a connection there. It becomes very distracting and near impossible to fantasize about having a gf with such an age gap.

              “She is sexually “one of the harem”. Nothing special. Just something different for the times when he doesn’t want to watch a sexy pornstar..or heck..maybe he wants to watch a sexy pornstar but use your body to get off.”

              It’s possible he wants to get off looking at porn, but not USE your body to get off. People still can love even when they are attracted to others, they probably aren’t very monogymous though. I dunno why it happens, it’s not a justified reason btw, just that it does happen. As I said relationships are complex, he himself could feel completely rejected by her and she might not even realize it. It’s why people need to communicate n find out why he looks at it, or why she looks at it. Sometimes it’s just a case of it feels great, and not knowing exactly why we look. Maybe some primal urge? It can be hard to explain the attraction of porn to those who don’t get turned on by it, it could very well be the males version of adding a vibrator to sex even. It’s additional stimuli, a vibrator is physically stimulating, porn can be visually stimulating. Seeing the act of sex itself is a major turn on, maybe a couple could wire up a camera that doesn’t record but just live-views to a tv and they can act out a fantasy of them being their own pornstars?

              I hope that helps illustrate a bit of why a man would look at porn. Give me an option to have a loving wife OR porn, and I’d choose the loving wife. Porn is like using one sense, like reaching 2nd gear of the sex drive without using the other 3 gears, in the majority of men porn could never compete with a partner.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              How about men in relationships? I was just perusing a website with people in sexless marriages. For more than a few of them, porn takes the edge off, keeps the bitterness and resentment at bay. It allows them to stay married and raising the kids even though their spouse is no longer interested in them.

              Perhaps those guys should avail themselves of the “leaving” option since the “talking” and “counseling” and “wait and see” and “do more chores” and “be more attentive” options all turned out to be duds.

            • I don’t really know the answer to that one Nick. Sexless marraiges are certainly an issue. There is probably alot going on in a relationship that is sexless that we wouldn’t be able to qaulify all the reasons. From a woman being tired and run down from the day to day chores and probably not feeling very sexy at the end of the day to perhaps women that don’t even want to have sex wit htheir husbands for other reasons. Of course, there are men too that opt out of having sex wit htheir partners too. This isn’t just something women do. Alot of men choose porn over their partner too. I have read a lot of stuff on women dealing with just that problem. Women that were making active attempts to make things more exciting but their partners just weren’t interested in her.

              I am not sure the greatest answer is to look at porn to keep bitterness at bay to raise kids. But I don’t know what the answer is. It’s certainly a complicated problem.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Well if you come up with any good ideas please do share, because there are millions of people out there who are struggling with just that problem. For them marriage doesn’t provide access to monogamous sex, loving or otherwise, it provides them with access to celibacy.

            • I already said I don’t have all the answers Nick. What good ideas are you looking for me to come up with? Regardless of what intimacy problems a couple maybe having, this still doesn’t do much to address the content of porn and what men are attracted to. Of coures people turn to porn for all kinds of reasons, but no matter what those reasons are, this doesn’t change the underlying base of what most porn is made up of.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              No one has any good answers. I certainly don’t pretend to. That’s why I’m not going to pass judgement on those people in such relationships who turn to porn, anymore than I am going to judge those people who aren’t in relationships who turn to porn. I don’t have a better answer for them.

              What I will advise those people, however, is to choose their porn ethically.

            • It’s not a matter of passing judgement Nick. It’s not a matter of saying, “you’re a bad person because you look at porn!”. No one here has said that.

              It’s about understanding why so much porn exists that is infact abusive toward women. It’s about understanding what is going on with men that so many men turn to porn to begin with. Sometimes over spending time doing other thigns or even getting to know how to really relate to a real woman. It’s about understanding how sexuality has changed because of all the porn that is now available. This is really the Age of Porn. It’s almost like people want porn more then they want real sex..or they want porn just as much as they want real sex. It’s so strange. We seem more interested in watching other people have sex then doing it ourselves. And we justify these things because men have needs or men are lonely or frustrated or a hundred things men can feel. But we don’t stop to consider how these things impact relationships or men or women on a deeper pyschological level.

              I remember a conversation I had with a guy one time that joked and thought it was funny that time spent working on his music and art is now time spent looking a porn when he gets a free chance. He thought it was funny. How many people stopped doing things they loved in favor of looking at porn? To me that conversation held a lot of significance because it showed me how easily led men are by pornography. I wonder how many men forgo time spent with family, working on household projects, learning a new skill or any other activitiy for a few moments alone with some women he barely knows that he downloaded on his screen to suit whatever mood and flavor he currently wanted to entertain himself with.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              If you want to look at the big picture then please look at the big picture (keep in mind though that my “passing judgement” comment was about this subset of porn viewers, those who are in sexless relationships or are unable to find relationships).

              Why would someone choose porn over sex with a real live woman?
              Why is porn so prevalent today?
              Why do we even look at porn?

              I find it useful to note that other great apes look at porn as well; they are particularly drawn to pictures of “high status” apes. There’s also the question of the role female copulatory vocalization and sperm competition play in our sexual behavior. Might it be possible our “nature” really is tuned to be aroused by others copulating? That the reason women are able to be multi-orgasmic is because they might have a succession of copulatory parters rather than a single one? I mentioned the cave paintings – is that a result of the culture of the time or representative of some inherent interest in depictions of sexual behavior? Why is porn arousing? Why do we have emotional responses to depictions of behavior, both written and portrayed on screen?

              We can keep going as deep as you want and we’ll keep uncovering more questions than answers. That’s why I prefer to focus on how to make things better rather than trying to stem the tide that is pervasive access to and use of pornography. How can we make it so ethical porn is the norm, rather than exploitative (if that’s at all possible)? How can we teach young people about sex as a pleasurable activity, and how to engage in it with mutuality? Clearly our “sex as disaster preparedness” approach to sex education is failing us here. We’re not teaching kids how to engage with each other respectfully, how sexuality can lead to shared pleasure. Until we start doing that, they will continue to get their sex instruction from porn and the cycle will continue.

            • I know that there are many people that have sexless relationships and are unable to find relationships. I also know that a lot of men with loving partners also still look at porn too. I don’t think it’s fair to disqualify those examples in favor of presenting an image that men only look at porn because they are forced to through lack of attention/touch.

              Nick: “Why would someone choose porn over sex with a real live woman?
Why is porn so prevalent today?
Why do we even look at porn?”

              I would like to know the answer to all of these.

              Nick: “Might it be possible our “nature” really is tuned to be aroused by others copulating?”

              I wouldn’t say we are specifically made to be turned on by others having sex so much as sex itself being such a turn on that seeing how other people do it can be a turn on. But this doesn’t explain why there is so much porn out there and what people have made much more common place. This doesn’t explain how men and women behave in regards to porn and other people and deeper pyschologies.

              Nick: “That the reason women are able to be multi-orgasmic is because they might have a succession of copulatory parters rather than a single one? “

              So a woman’s ability to have multiple orgasms is because she will have multple partners? I was under the impression that multiple orgasms happened in succession of one another right away. I don’t think multiple orgasms means having an orgasm in one hour with one man and having another with another man an hour later.

              Nick: “I mentioned the cave paintings – is that a result of the culture of the time or representative of some inherent interest in depictions of sexual behavior? Why is porn arousing? Why do we have emotional responses to depictions of behavior, both written and portrayed on screen?”

              You can’t compare cave drawings to the culture of porn today. You are doing a grave injustice to the complexities we deal with today that had nothing to do with what happened back in the day by reducing it to a matter of cave drawings.

              Nick: “We can keep going as deep as you want and we’ll keep uncovering more questions than answers.”

              Good. Because when you start uncovering questions then you can figure out answers even if it takes awhile.

              Nick: “That’s why I prefer to focus on how to make things better rather than trying to stem the tide that is pervasive access to and use of pornography. “

              I think what I see here in general are people that want to ignore the treatment of women in favor of acting like porn is all positive and light.
              I see a disproportionate amount of ignoring the bad in favor of promoting what you specifically have catagorized as “good”. Whatever “good” means.

              But I don’t think things are never going to be “better”. Men have exactly the kind of porn they want. Men had billions of years to make porn better and still haven’t accomplished that. If men wanted “better” more healthy depictions of sex between men and women, they would already have it. But largely, porn is always going to be made on the back of female objectification. And lets say for the sake of argument that porn is ‘healthy”, does that fix the problem or create new ones?

              Nick: “How can we make it so ethical porn is the norm, rather than exploitative (if that’s at all possible)?”

              How about we teach people to interact with one another more instead of always resorting to a voyeuristic passive tendency to watch others? Why are you so eager to promote porn in general rather then promote real sexuality and bonding between two people where they are taking and active role in their sexuality, not a passive one? How about we ask ourselves why porn is so popular, in combination with questioning the content. Why have so many men increasingly grown and attached their sexuality porn in today’s world? Do these men use it as a crutch and if so, how much and how many men are using it a crutch to support them through their everyday lives? Why is porn such a crutch for men to begin with?

            • Nick, mostly says:

              I think what I see here in general are people that want to ignore the treatment of women in favor of acting like porn is all positive and light.
              I see a disproportionate amount of ignoring the bad in favor of promoting what you specifically have catagorized as “good”. Whatever “good” means.

              I take great pains to use quotes and links to back up my assertions, and if I claim someone is acting a certain way I am damned well going to provide the quotes to prove it.

              So I’d like to see the quotes please. Who is ignoring the bad? Who thinks “porn is all positive and light?” Who wrote that? Who made those assertions here?

              There are things we disagree on. I don’t believe all porn subjugates women; it sounds like you do. I don’t believe all porn should be opposed; it sounds like you do. I believe there is ethically made porn out there; I’m not sure if you do.

              But if you are suggesting that I think that exploitative, misogynistic porn is “all positive and light” or that I don’t care about it, back it up. Show where I’ve written that. Or is this another one of your baseless generalizations that you make so freely, facts and reality be damned?

            • “Why would someone choose porn over sex with a real live woman?”
              Addiction, or they are scared of women, or feel they aren’t worth of a woman, take your pick. I think you may underestimate how hard it can be to get a partner, especially for unattractive people or those with issues.
              In a relationship it can be because: They don’t want to disturb their sleeping partner for sex, they have a sexless marriage/relationship, they’re addicted, the love was lost between them.

              For me I don’t choose to do it, I just find it hard to socialize, find it very hard to find women my age to socialize with, find it extremely hard to find women who are even single, let alone compatible or attractive to me. Nearly ever woman I meet now is married, or dating. Small towns with fuck all nightlife suck. I am also very shy with meeting new people, especially women, so it’s even more difficult especially as I have no job currently and that is an automatic dismissal for a lot of Australian women. I am under no illusions, it’ll be hard to get a date until I am working and also work on my confidence AND find out how to actually find single women here.
              “Why is porn so prevalent today?”
              The internet made it free, easily available, and attitudes towards sex have changed.

              “Why do we even look at porn?”
              Because it’s very stimulating to see nudity and sex and helps considerably with masturbation.

            • “how does a man’s lack of relationships jutisfy using a meduim that is more times then not, pretty dreadful to women?”

              Citation needed AGAIN. Seriously–how many times does it need to be pointed out that this notion of ALL porn (or even the vast maority of it) revolving around the humiliation and degradation of women is wrong, wrong, wrong???

              This is YOUR personal interpretation of porn, Erin; it’s not reality, and you’re rejecting the comments of everyone who tries to point out your mistake. To use 60s lingo, this is a “hangup” of yours.

            • Copyleft, I am fully aware that porn will bother me on a level it won’t bother men. Men get pleasure from porn. Porn caters to mainly male desires and fantasy. There is rarely anything in porn that is offensive to men because it is trying to cater to men.

              But no, the “hangup” isn’t mine. The reality is that a huge amount of porn exists that is demeaning to women. Now I know all the guys on this board only watch the most softeness, wonderful, egalitarian product out there where all the women are treated with nothing respect because they made sure to research each video they watch to know how ethically it was produced. They know that the woman consented to have the video up there even I’m sure right? Because we know no man would ever make a sex tape with a woman and then post it without her knowing right?

              But the fact remains that porn is heavily objectifying and abusive to women because a lot of men somewhere want to see just that. And it’s okay to stereotype women based on age and body type and race because it’s a wonderful thing that men like tos ee women stereotyped based on these features.

            • “Men have other options, if they really want them.”
              You know Erin even when I disagree with you I feel there is still some mutual understanding going on.

              This remark makes me wonder just how much understanding you have.

              That entire comment is screaming, “The only reason men are this way is because they are not trying hard enough or they are doing the wrong things..”

              I thought you were trying to have a conversation with guys who watch porn for understanding but your comments seem to be slowly turning from that into a desire to only hear from guys who experiences reflect the conclusions you have already drawn.

              Do those guys exist? Yes there are guys out there that probably watch porn and fit your observations and thoughts to a T. But you really sound like you are having trouble with guys whose actual experiences don’t mirror what you’ve already come up with.

              This is an odd contrast to the “Who Has Power In Dating” post where you (and a few other women) were reminding us on a regular basis that you got how we felt. Maybe you do when it comes to dating but from what I can tell of your comments here you aren’t quite getting it when it comes guys watching porn. Or at least you only seem to be able to “get it” when it fits the narrow scope of what you observe.

            • I agree, burying the head in the sand because MANY guys are commenting and saying their experience is quite different to the one she is trying to tell us actually exists. It’s the classic womansplaining, trying to tell us our own experience as if we do not know it. It’s annoying. I can understand if she was asking if that is our experience, but she’s actually telling us what we think, what we like, what we do. I haven’t seen someone misunderstand men SO BADLY in a very very long time, even with men telling her their experience. What is it about it all that is so difficult to comprehend?

            • Perhaps you should consider how your comments could also apply from my vantage point as well Danny. I think we BOTH feel that the other one isn’t really listening. But I don’t deserve to be personally attacked for it.

            • Oh I can agree that you don’t deserve to be personally attacked for it which is why I’m not personally attacking you for it.

            • “This remark makes me wonder just how much understanding you have.”

              Sounds like a personal attack to me Danny.

            • No more personal that the times you’ve told me that I’m not listening to you or telling me that I don’t care what you say because you aren’t agreeing with me.

  14. J P McMahon says:

    “Good sex is both your right and it’s within your reach-” Is this statement referring to being in certain rural Nevada counties, and having your Mastercard clear the cash register in a trailer park cat house? Because otherwise I don’t know how the author could make that statement. I think you could get an argument from a lot of people posting on, and running this site, that this doesn’t even apply to you if you are MARRIED. When you start talking about “rights” in terms of a service or physical object that everyone should morally have access to, health care and housing come to mind, society is obligated to provide that service or object. A lot of men, decent, law abiding, hard working men, turn to porn because they have not had the opportunity to have “good sex” or any sex for YEARS. How is society going to defend their RIGHT to “good sex”? How is it “within their reach”, unless they are reaching for the “Carpetmunching #12″ DVD? I wonder how “Good sex is both your right and it’s within your reach.” would work as a pick up line in a bar?

    • wellokaythen says:

      I wouldn’t go so far as to say one has an inherent “right to good sex,” at least not as a kind of entitlement. I’d say every person has a basic right to try to build his or her best sex life, sort of a “pursuit of happiness” kind of deal. Within certain limits, of course. Like all rights, this right is bordered by everyone else’s rights. It’s a right as long as it is exercised consensually. No one is entitled to good sex, but everyone has the right to try. (And by ‘good sex,’ I mean sexual pleasure whether it’s with a partner or not.)

      I’m libertarian (or libertine) enough that I generally think people should be allowed to risk addiction if the activity harms no one else or restricts no one else’s rights. You ought to have the option of watching porn all day, as long as you then accept the consequences of that.

      • J P McMahon says:

        w, Very nice response to my post. I basically agree with everything you stated there, although I can’t say that I would rate any sexual pleasure that I’ve had without a partner as “good sex”, anymore than I would rate grabbing a McDonald’s double cheese burger at lunch because it was cheap, quick, and the only thing available as a “good meal”. But I guess that is life in all of it’s unfairness and inequality. Some of us get a cold bologna sandwich, and others get Chateau Briand.

  15. Regarding there being no effective sex education, they used to have these things called parents . . .

    • Tell us more… what were they like? (I’ve heard stories.) 8^)

      • Parents are those people that never got sex education themselves.

        • Parents are those things that received so little sex education themselves that when their own child started asking basic questions at a young age, the mom answered to the best of her ability . . . and then told her child “let’s go downtown to the Public Library and find some good books for your age because this is too important a thing for me to get it wrong.”

          (That was in the early 70’s. Google had not yet been born. I somehow had enough sense to to think it would be better to admit I didn’t have all the answers than risk screwing up another generation.)

        • Those are patents that didn’t have parents themselves. Actual parents educate their children on life and interpersonal relationships, to include sex.

  16. I wish I understood the appeal of porn because it is so ubiquitous and I know the men in my life have probably watched 1,000’s of hours of it. And I don’t get it. I’ve tried to like it and it just doesn’t arouse me. At best it’s boring to me and a bit gross. (or very gross) At worst, it fills me with anxiety because I think, whoa, if this is what men want, I’m in trouble. I’m not hot enough, I’m not athletic enough, and frankly a lot of what is depicted in porn is not stuff I would enjoy doing. I want to have hot sex, yes, but fir me the hottest sex is intimate, erotic, sensual, and emotional. There are times when I’ve had amazing sexual experiences where I’ve felt so excited and so full of loving feelings that I almost started crying. It was that powerful. Porn shows me a universe where sexuality is detached, cold, harsh, empty of feeling and even cruel. I find it scary, to be honest. I can’t relate to it. It seems utterly soulless.

    • If it helps, in porn, I don’t know them and thus it takes a very hot woman to get me really turned on. I can be turned on to a wide variety of women but lets just say randomly average woman gives 50%, hot woman gives 60%. A real life woman gives me 2000%, a real life hot woman gives me 2500% turned on. I have also been turned on by things I wouldn’t wanna try in real life, so there is this fantasy vs reality aspect that muddies up the waters and I don’t think it’s a good idea for women to try 100% imitate porn or pornstars. Most of what turns me on is just the act of sex itself, or detail of the vulva (I haven’t had many experiences with a vulva so it’s quite interesting I guess).

      “I want to have hot sex, yes, but fir me the hottest sex is intimate, erotic, sensual, and emotional. ”
      This barely does anything for me when I SEE it, foreplay, etc, doesn’t really do it for me to see. I like seeing a woman strip and then have sex as when I masturbate I am already fantasizing about massaging them, foreplay, and other intimate acts apart from all out sex. There’s also this element that I can’t feel the connection from just porn so it gets a bit boring to watch the sensual act, however offline I do like the touching, kissing, caressing, intimate erotic acts, teasing, and you also have those emotional feelings, sense of warmth n comfort, etc.

      It also depends on the type of porn you watch, I’ve seen a video of a man massaging a woman with oils, it was very erotic, I imagined myself doing that with a partner. I also saw the same stars do the reversal, she massaged him and imagined I was getting that from a partner, I can occasionally get into that but it actually makes me feel even more lonely, and really romantic stuff leaves me feeling vulnerable n depressed even more because I don’t have a partner currently. Pure sex alone I can just jerk off and it generally feels ok without depressing me.

      How do I explain what the naked female body does to a man who see’s it? Do you know what it’s like to go from flaccid to erect in 5 seconds just by seeing the glimpse of a breast of someone you find attractive? To be turned on by visual stimulation so much that you start to blueball? If you can’t understand that then maybe that is why you can’t understand the appeal of porn. I guess it’s similar to how I can’t understand the appeal of text, I feel text is cold, disconnected, empty of feeling, I can’t see their body language, their pleasure, I can’t hear their pleasure and enjoyment, it’s absolutely amazing to see a woman orgasm and see her legs shake, pelvis rise, vulva tighten n loosen, her eyes close and a lil moan. It’s hard to describe that feeling I get when I see it, it’s like someone lit up all of my fires and my desire for sex n intimacy shoot to a level so high. But it’s something that doesn’t even compare to the level I feel with a real person, and that is why women shouldn’t be comparing themselves to porn because the difference between seeing a random unknown person in a video, compared to someone we know live in the flesh is unfathomable. It takes me a lot to be turned on by videos n images, but very little offline.

      Don’t beat yourself up about not looking like porn stars, you’d be surprised how many porn stars I find ugly even. Some of the hottest women I’ve ever seen are women that some others don’t find much appeal in, hell redheads with freckles drive me wild for some reason yet I hear n see so much dislike towards them by some others. I had a redheaded woman tell me she appreciated my comments once, I guess she didn’t think anyone liked redheads? What one man likes isn’t the same as another, there are popular themes but even then not everyone likes that. I am not really that attracted to the majority of the “pro industry porn stars”, most pro porn actually bores me. I much rather see amateur content, I see more realistic portrayals of women there and they’re much more like the women I see regularly that I am attracted to.

      “Porn shows me a universe where sexuality is detached, cold, harsh, empty of feeling and even cruel. I find it scary, to be honest. I can’t relate to it. It seems utterly soulless.”
      Try amateur porn, real couples, much more of a soul there.

    • And you will never understand it if you limit yourself to understanding only the things you personally enjoy, or by your insecurities, or by what you perceive to be the motives of others.

      If you really want to understand, and I think you do, then you have to rid yourself, at least momentarily, of the things that trap your understanding.

      I say the above with good intent Sarah.

      I find that the popularity of porn with straight men comes down to: good aid for masturbation, the continuous depiction of women who really desire fucking and sucking and the ability to role play with submissive and dominant and other taboo sexual themes. Shit does exist, but it’s not what clogs up the internet.

      • The willingness to have sex is a major turn on. Those guys in the video appear to be desired a lot, and many men I would guess rarely feel desired, especially sexually. It often portrays the women as initiating the sex as well which is another turn on.

        • I would suggest that this (not ‘humiliation and abuse of women’) is the REAL major appeal of porn for the vast majority of men. Not that there are many women willing to listen to such a concept, or even ask the question, let alone consider its implications. After all, since when did men have feelings other than lust and hate, right?

        • But it’s not just about a woman willing to have sex Archy. Usually the woman is SO highly ravenous for sex she is displaying nymphomanic tendencies. She is completely insatible and dependent on the man for her sexual fulfillment. A fulfillment that is usually met by doing some very unrealistic and sometimes even realistically unpleasurable acts for her. POrn isn’t just about seeing willing women.

          If the humilation and abuse isn’t the REAL appeal for the majority of men, then why does it appear to exist in the vast majority of porn?

          And frankly, if you want to be angry at anything for depicting men as only being able to express lust and hate, you should be angry at porn since it does often reduce male sexuality down to complicated levels of both.

          • “But it’s not just about a woman willing to have sex Archy. Usually the woman is SO highly ravenous for sex she is displaying nymphomanic tendencies. She is completely insatible and dependent on the man for her sexual fulfillment. A fulfillment that is usually met by doing some very unrealistic and sometimes even realistically unpleasurable acts for her. Porn isn’t just about seeing willing women. ”
            The fantasy would still be to be with a willing woman, just one who is VERY willing. Do women not get that aroused for their partners that they want to literally fuck his brains out? If they don’t then maybe women don’t understand why it’s a fantasy, because I know full well what it feels like to be so turned on that I myself display nympho tendencies, I am insatiable, and dependent on her for sexual fulfillment. None of that is bad, why would it be? We depend on each other to sexually arouse and pleasure us, sharing that together is what makes it great. The unrealistic acts however are a problem, I agree there.

            “If the humilation and abuse isn’t the REAL appeal for the majority of men, then why does it appear to exist in the vast majority of porn? ”
            I don’t see any humiliation or abuse in the vast majority of porn. Are you referring to facials? That’s the only thing possibly considered humiliating I could think of in the majority of pro porn I’ve seen but even then it’s not always a degrading act. And no I don’t think it’s a humiliating act, but hey maybe I’m weird, I’m totally fine with a woman cumming on my face if she can or burying my head in the juices. Humiliation requires intent and I don’t see that intent in the majority of pro porn I’ve seen, the closest would be facials which are a strange thing but that’s partly probably to do with a fantasy accepting his fluid and being happy. If it were intended to be humiliating then wouldn’t the actress be showing very negative emotions?

            I have seen degrading stuff in porn, the women who were crying from pain, being slapped about, talked down to, the throat gagging stuff and other stuff I consider violent. I can understand a few women may actually enjoy that stuff but I doubt the majority would, I can’t see the appeal in it but I’ve seen some women actually defend it. I don’t wanna see it, and hope it becomes extremely rare if it isn’t already. Can’t say I’ve seen much of it in pro porn but I do know there are fetish sites with it.

            • “The fantasy would still be to be with a willing woman, just one who is VERY willing. Do women not get that aroused for their partners that they want to literally fuck his brains out? If they don’t then maybe women don’t understand why it’s a fantasy, because I know full well what it feels like to be so turned on that I myself display nympho tendencies, I am insatiable, and dependent on her for sexual fulfillment. None of that is bad, why would it be? We depend on each other to sexually arouse and pleasure us, sharing that together is what makes it great. The unrealistic acts however are a problem, I agree there.”

              You know Archy, you’ve repeatedly attacked me for making generalities but you fail to take a look at the generalities you make. Me? I don’t think generalities are bad but you do yet apparently it’s okay for you to make them when it suits you.

              We clearly disagree. You think it’s great that women are depicted the way they are in porn, I simply don’t.

              “I don’t see any humiliation or abuse in the vast majority of porn.”

              And I don’t see a lot of positive displays of sexuality, especially for women in it either.

              “I have seen degrading stuff in porn, the women who were crying from pain, being slapped about, talked down to, the throat gagging stuff and other stuff I consider violent. I can understand a few women may actually enjoy that stuff but I doubt the majority would, I can’t see the appeal in it but I’ve seen some women actually defend it. I don’t wanna see it, and hope it becomes extremely rare if it isn’t already. Can’t say I’ve seen much of it in pro porn but I do know there are fetish sites with it.”

              That stuff won’t ever become extremely rare. A portion of the population, a significant portion want to see that. And young boys and girls that are growing up with the internet at their fingers tips will be even more accepting of abusive acts toward women sexually. Their little boyfriends will want to “try new things” with them. And these girls mostly likely will thing that that is what their sexuality is suppose to be and conform to them. Maybe they even achieve orgasm together. But does that mean what is happening is healthy?

              A woman doesn’t have to just be having extreme versions of abuse heeped on her for it to be degrading. She doesn’t just have to be crying or being slapped around or gagged..although these things are so normalized today in our conversations that there isn’t one person reading this that doesn’t infact know that these forms of porn exist. Yet, people will argue how this stuff isn’t common. Yet none of us are stunned by talking of bringing a woman to tears or gagging her. Funny that.

            • “You know Archy, you’ve repeatedly attacked me for making generalities but you fail to take a look at the generalities you make. Me? I don’t think generalities are bad but you do yet apparently it’s okay for you to make them when it suits you. ”
              Where is the generalization in that? I’m asking a question in it, not making a generalized statement. Hence why I say IF and MAYBE, because I am ASKING, trying to find out if women share this same fantasy.

              “We clearly disagree. You think it’s great that women are depicted the way they are in porn, I simply don’t. ”
              Depends on the porn, some porn yes, others no.

              “And I don’t see a lot of positive displays of sexuality, especially for women in it either. ”
              A lot of porn is pretty mediocre, but of course again it depends what you look at.

              “Their little boyfriends will want to “try new things” with them. And these girls mostly likely will thing that that is what their sexuality is suppose to be and conform to them. Maybe they even achieve orgasm together. But does that mean what is happening is healthy? ”
              Of course! Because women always do what men want, and never make their own mind up. Women have no agency and always do what the man says, like good little slaves right? Cmon now, do you honestly expect me to believe every woman bends herself to pleasing a man every time, or that men never do this as well? Do you think in ten years we’ll see hardcore anal beign accepted by every woman or something? Women need to speak up to what is ok and what isn’t, same with men, they may try acts they see in porn but I doubt the majority of women are going to put themselves through acts they truly find degrading in this day n age. Give women more credit huh? Do you not notice how offensive it is to women to speak like women have no agency and will do whatever a man wants? I’ve never heard a woman say they enjoy or do degrading acts, especially stuff that causes them to cry, willingly. I’m sure some do but I doubt it’ll be the majority.

              “Yet none of us are stunned by talking of bringing a woman to tears or gagging her. Funny that.”
              Speak for yourself, I was shocked as shit that it was even allowed in porn. But then I see people willingly doing shocking stuff to themselves in the various BDSM fields, so I am unsure of what to think. If I saw someone make a girl cry whilst having sex I’m likely to want to take a baseball bat to them for it. What’s degrading to you might be fine to them, who is right? All I know is I don’t want my partner crying unless it’s because she’s so damn happy that she’s reached some sexual nirvana. The porn you talk about as normalized is shit most guys I know think is terrible and don’t look at. Do you ever think that maybe your idea of what is normalized, what you think men look at is completely wrong?

          • “If the humilation and abuse isn’t the REAL appeal for the majority of men, then why does it appear to exist in the vast majority of porn?”

            Sigh… once again: Because it DOESN’T. It exists in your personal view, your filter, your conscious decision of how you’re going to interpret all the porn you encounter. YOU see degradation and abuse everywhere you look, because you’ve decided that’s what porn must be ‘all about.’

            Your personal interpretation is not matched by the interpretations of others, or by reality.

            • Of coures it exists Copyleft. We all know it does. Except there are a number of men here that are defensive about their own porn use and think that they look at porn that is wonderful and eglatarian, as they personally define it for themselves, that the other porn shouldn’t matter or even be discussed. A lot of the guys here are going on about how wonderful and fair porn is and how they only look at the most nicest stuff. They might say, “oh and yeah that porn exists but I don’t look at!” , then quickly go back to talking about how wonderful porn is for them and for women. But porn isn’t wonderful women because most porn isn’t about making what women like. It’s about making what men like and women adopting more of a masculine view of sexuality then just being themselves. Since porn is so heavily dominated by a masculine of sexuality, and since so many men are seeing things in porn they want to do, there is a huge imbalance between men adn women about sexuality with very little room for actual, real, honest, sincere, joyful, mutual pleasure that is fair to both a woman just as much as a man.

              I really think a lot of men would know what I was talking about if there was an industry that women LOVED and in this industry women weren’t having sex with men but using them for their money. And in this industry/media, the men were protrayed as LOVING being used for their money. Sometimes these men were called low life names. Sometimes these guys where slapped and hit or had stuff shoved into their holes. Sometimes the women just took their money then kicked them out. But these men LOVE it. At least, they are protrayed as loving it. They aer protrayed as happy and fullfilled for being used for their money. I can see women saying things like, “It’s okay hunny, it’s just my fantasy.” “I just like men with a lot of money, I don’t expect you to be successful enough to earn thatkind of money. ” Perhaps these men’s daughters and granddaughters were also looking at this material. How respected would men feel? My guess is not very respected.

              Women don’t want to be used for sex and men don’t want to be used for money. Yet women are repeatidly used for sex through porn.

            • Let me clarify: Some porn does indeed involve the humiliation and degradation of women. Some involves the humiliation and degradation of men, too, because for some men that’s a fantasy they enjoy.

              Your conclusion that “what men like is degradation and humiliation of women” is what’s wrong. Your followup conclusion that “that’s why porn is all about degrading women” is therefore wrong too.

              Really, the mistake you’re making–and continuing to make–is that you think you understand what “men” think and feel, when you clearly do not. You’ve decided that men fantasize about degrading and abusing women… and when men tell you that’s not the case, you decide they’re being defensive or dishonest. Again: YOUR hangup. Not our problem.

            • Copyleft: “Let me clarify: Some porn does indeed involve the humiliation and degradation of women. Some involves the humiliation and degradation of men, too, because for some men that’s a fantasy they enjoy.”

              This is what annoys me about this discussion. When it’s pointed out that a lot of porn humilates and degrades women, someone at some point is bound to come back and say that it happens to men too. This argument is used, I suspect, to deny the seriousness of pointing out how it happens to women.

              I don’t disagree that humilation and degradation happens to men too. But it does not happen in equal parts as it does to women. This is a fact. So when I here someone say things like, “it happens to men too”, I see a disconnect in their evaluation about how porn treats women vs how they treat men. Yes, we know that there is porn that humilates men. But this is not nearly as vast as the way women are humilated and objectified. This is the simple reality. Porn is NOT some egalitarian construct that equally degrades women just as much as men. Men are usually shown in a position of power. So when I hear people say, “degradation happens to men too”, I can’t help but think that they are trying to cover how women are degraded in porn and how often they are in favor of trying to turn people’s eyes to a smaller smaller subset of porn that may show men being humilated. Further, even this porn that is made about men being humilated is rarely created for women themselves. It is generally made for other men.

              “Your conclusion that “what men like is degradation and humiliation of women” is what’s wrong. Your followup conclusion that “that’s why porn is all about degrading women” is therefore wrong too.”

              Alot of men do like degrading and humilating porn of women. These movies don’t always have to be about hitting women or calling them desrespectful names. It can be something along the lines of how women are catagorized like flavors for men to pick. It can come out in the pervalance to support certain stereotypes about women’s beauty and bodies and expectations that women are expected to live up to that their own partner are buying into. There are studies that talk about how men are much more negative about their own partners after viewing porn.

              Copyleft: “Really, the mistake you’re making–and continuing to make–is that you think you understand what “men” think and feel, when you clearly do not. You’ve decided that men fantasize about degrading and abusing women… and when men tell you that’s not the case, you decide they’re being defensive or dishonest. Again: YOUR hangup. Not our problem.”

              This is exactly what I was talking about. When are expected to be understanding toward men’s sexual nature. We are expected to:

              Accept when our partners want to go to strip clubs, “once in awhile”.
              Accept that our partners want to bang the family babysitter or cheerleaders or school girls.
              Accept that men want x amount of different women to visually masturbate too because he needs variety.
              Accept that we are not his fantasy, neither are we anything cloes to being beautiful to him in favor of having all these visuals of other women to feed off of.
              Accept that men sex is very important to him and to be sensitve to what he likes. Even if what he likes is about banging teenagers while you are a 25+ year old woman.

              We are told to be sensitive to men. be kind. Address these issues without judgement and with vulnerability. But men are not expected to do the same in kind toward wome nregarding this issue. Instead, a lot of men will say things like, “that’s your problem,” “you are too sensitive”, “you are just insecure”, “you don’t understand what it’s like to be me a man.”, “life is eaiser for you so you don’t get it.”..and variations of those things.

            • “They might say, “oh and yeah that porn exists but I don’t look at!” , then quickly go back to talking about how wonderful porn is for them and for women. ”
              See this is why you’re causing men to be defensive, because you’re misinterpreting their position. They’re saying SOME PORN is egalitarian and good to women. Seriously Erin, what comments are you looking at saying all porn is egalitarian and wonderful?! You fail to understand this simple concept that the men are talking about SOME PORN, and you are generalizing ALL PORN. When Danny and I are saying you aren’t listening, this is probably why.

              “But porn isn’t wonderful women because most porn isn’t about making what women like.”
              Generalization. Becuase most porn to you is bad, no porn can be good. The men who comment are saying some porn is good, you are reading them as saying “porn is good”, YOU ARE MISREADING THEM and generalizing like crazy.

              “At least, they are protrayed as loving it. They aer protrayed as happy and fullfilled for being used for their money. I can see women saying things like, “It’s okay hunny, it’s just my fantasy.” “I just like men with a lot of money, I don’t expect you to be successful enough to earn thatkind of money. ” Perhaps these men’s daughters and granddaughters were also looking at this material. How respected would men feel? My guess is not very respected.”

              Would these men also be like you seem to be and completely misread the women and what they say? Would they read comment after comment by women who say they want ethical porn, look at egalitarian porn, and think to themselves “Hmm, porn is degrading” “Men like porn, thus men like seeing women degraded”. Would they assume the porn their women are looking at is the degrading type or would they actually ask the woman what they look at?

              The men here that I see understand your point, they’re just disagreeing that all porn is like that, they’re taking offense to you telling them what men like. Of course you won’t feel respected if you can’t open your eyes to men telling you they respect women, you appear to be doing that just ignoring these men and reinforcing your belief of porn being bad for people and sexuality when plenty of people are telling you different.

              “Really, the mistake you’re making–and continuing to make–is that you think you understand what “men” think and feel, when you clearly do not. You’ve decided that men fantasize about degrading and abusing women… and when men tell you that’s not the case, you decide they’re being defensive or dishonest. Again: YOUR hangup. Not our problem.”
              It’s womansplaining.

  17. Ladies, do you think porn can be something that you have playing on a screen while you and your partner are engaged in your normal sexual activities? It can heighten his pleasure. You might even start to enjoy it yourself. Think of it as kind of a present for him. You’re going to get the benefits. Think of it as a sex toy. You don’t look like the women in the porn movies? Well, I’m guessing that your partner probably doesn’t look like the men either.

    • I can’t think of a worse situation then being intimate with my man while he wants to watch porn of other women getting sexed up. Why don’t I heighten his pleasure? I would wonder. Why does he need a video to do it? Why doesn’t he want to focus on us and what we can bring each other? Why should I be subject to his heightened pleasure through other women just so I can do all the work that finally gets him off? that seems like a very disconnected way to have sex. And a very selfish one. And one I am not intersted in. i am not looking to have sex with someone that wants to watch porn stars because I don’t look like one but wants all the benefits of my touch to get him off. That pretty much confirms the fears Sarah above talked about that a lot of guys responded to by writing off her concerns. And I feel the same way Sarah does. What men want are pornstars and women that look like that. Or at least, they seem to need visuals of different women to be appeased sexually. No one woman can compete with that. Why should she even bother trying?

      And further, in my sexual experiences, I experienced a lot of men that started to do “porn” like moves. When I was younger, men didn’t do that stuff. Now I see men that are trying to mimic porn. They don’t even ask you if you like something. They just do it “to you” and expect you to moan like a pornstar. It’s so strange and disconnected. I know a lot of men here don’t think men are affected by porn. But I date normal guys and they are heavily influenced by porn and it comes out in their sexual performance. I think Sarah’s fears are valid even if other men here don’t. it’s a common thing women are forced to deal with and a common thing a lot of men try to write off because ultiamtely, men want porn. And that’s utlmately the goal. The goal isn’t about connecting more with real woman, but finding ways to explain porn use so that porn can still be a big part of his life.

      • Yeah I kind of agree, if a guy prefers to watch porn stars then he should go do that, what does he need me for?

        I’m probably not as negative about porn as you are Erin but I admit it makes me uncomfortable. I don’t think watching porn automatically means that a guy hates women or wants to hurt women in his real life, but that kind of porn is extremely popular and do I believe that it must speak to a dark part of the male psyche. I don’t think someone can enjoy porn where women are being abused and not feel a lot of unconscious hostility toward women. (I realize not all guys like that kind of porn.) I suppose if you go read some Freud, he had a lot to say about that subject. It’s probably human nature to hate what you don’t have, and the truth is, most guys will never have the opportunity of having sex with porn star quality women or with women who act like porn stars, and maybe they resent that. People like the vicarious thrill of violence and of doing things you can’t do in real life to the people you don’t like or who make your life difficult. People watch the Sopranos and fantasize about being a mob boss who could have people whacked. That kind of thing.

        The truth is, fantasies are often ugly. We all have horrible things deep in our minds that we probably shouldn’t dwell on too much. Porn brings the depths of the male mind into the light and it’s not always pretty. (I’m speaking of the majority of porn that caters exclusively to male fantasies.) Women have plenty in our minds that’s not so nice either. People are a mixed bag I guess … We are basically smart chimps with all the good and bad that entails (chimps can be sweet and affectionate, and other times they can literally tear your face off). That’s what porn makes me think of … It’s like watching a nature documentary of horny monkeys going at it.

        On the porn issue, I waffle between feeling like “why do guys have to like this so much? Why?”, as I said in my earlier comment, and trying to understand that guys are just different than me and what I find disturbing and disconnected and offputting about porn, they think is a turn on for whatever reason. I can’t change them. Honestly, I wouldn’t want some of my fantasies put on a screen – I’m not even comfortable sharing my fantasies with my boyfriend. Some things are too personal. Porn strips away all the privacy and pretense about what goes on in people’s sexual minds and shows that monkey side in all its glory, or otherwise.

        • Honestly, I wouldn’t want some of my fantasies put on a screen – I’m not even comfortable sharing my fantasies with my boyfriend.
          I was going to ask you and Erin, how is using porn as Shirlhock described [as an erotic stimulant] different than roleplaying or sharing fantasies while in bed.
          But from your sentence above I understand now. It is a privacy issue for you, even fantasies are private. Perhaps Erin too does not share fantasies with partner

          • Why have sex at all James if a man wants to watch porn anyway? If a man needs porn to heighten his desire for his partner, maybe he isn’t with the right person.

            Do you think it’s fun to be with a man and watch him get turned on by other really beautiful women and then use you inbtweeen peeks at the movie on screeen?Seems to me that the video/movie isn’t the only toy being used here. That perhaps the real life woman is also a toy in a way because she is only one half of the whole of the sexual experience too. She isn’t the one really turning him on right? He is being turned on by the images in the video of other women. Other women that Shirlhock described probably look a lot better then a man’s own partner right? Since he really apparently needs the visual of other women to “heighten” his desire for the actual real life person he is sleeping with. LOoks like the guy in the equation gets two toys. One toy to watch and the other toy to use to complete his pleasure.

            It’s not a privacy issue for me. I don’t undesrtand why any man would think it would be fun for him to be watching other women have sex while his partner was suppose to do what? Blow him while he drooled over other pornstars? How is that suppose to be a good thing? Because at the end of it he orgasms? And that is what? The only part of sex with someone? The final result?

            When you share your fantasies with someone, you are simply talking about what you like with an intimacy between the two of you. When you are looking at visuals of other people, you have to consider the other people and what your partner is focusing on with those other people. You are bringing other people in.

            Hey I get why it’s fun for guys to be drooling over hot pornstars while “making love” to their own partners. He gets the best of both worlds. And she gets it reinfornced to her that she isn’t good enough for him but she should be all willing and happy to please him sexually even as he devides his attention between her and porn. I guess this is what a lot of guys want sex to be about now-a-days maybe? Because since real women don’t look like the women men really want, what could be wrong with looking at porn to make it more fun while using your partner’s body parts to finish the job. The best of both worlds I guess? Is that what men are saying?

            • “The best of both worlds I guess? Is that what men are saying?”
              Some men maybe, others probably not. The only person I see talking about women as body parts is you, I suspect every man commenting here see’s woman as whole beings whereas you are seeing them as body parts whilst men jerk off to porn. The view you talk about with people and porn usage is quite literally one of the most degrading views I’ve ever heard of, I can understand that some men may think like this but truly how many? Do you think the majority of men looking at porn whilst having sex with their partner, only see her as a receptacle for his penis?! Do women who look at porn during sex just want the hot males in porn whilst using his cock to finish the job?

        • For all the people trying to say men n women are the same, I have to wonder if it’s true. There must be a reason men are so visually stimulated. As you have noticed fantasy and reality are very different, I’ve had fantasies about being James Bond, but who would want to be that really? Looking over your shoulder? Love of your life gets murdered, what a miserable fucking life.

          It could be that men are just more visually stimulated fullstop so porn may not do much for the average woman, but for the average man it could turn him on a lot. I see a lot of women like reading romance novels, erotica, etc, but that shit does nothing for me, nada, zilch, zip, hell reading about romance just makes me feel lonely n depressed because I can’t share my love with someone.

          I am actually starting to believe quite a few of you women are reading far more into men’s porn usage than really is there, I believe the majority of it is very simple, visually stimulated, and quite frankly for quite a while all I could find was shitty misogynist porn and I watched because I had nothing else. It wasn’t until about 5 years ago that I learned of amateur porn, or the wide variety of porn out there and ever since I stick to amateur solo or couples. I have no interest in seeing women abused, it turns me off, my interest is solely in seeing men n women have fun, hot, erotic sex and seeing real amateur couples makes it even better as they have this connection you can’t fake.

          Do you ladies engage in any material of fantasy for romance, erotica, sex? Do you use sex toys? One can easily feel left out or feel they are not enough if their partner is using a vibrator, but often it’s explained that it’s simply adding to the pleasure, maybe porn is similar in that a vibrator stimulates the nerves, porn stimulates the visual arousal system? They may not actually be looking at the man n woman in the video n thinking how hot they are during sex with their partner, they might JUST be seeing sex if you can understand that. Watching sex itself can be very very hot. It’s hard to explain though if you don’t get the same arousal, it’s not all about how hot they are, much of it is just the fact they’re fucking, seeing penis in vagina, or finger, or licking, fucking, sucking, all combos, 2 people enjoying a pleasurable act together especially when both are so into it. For some they might like to feel the dominant one in bed for the fantasy, others might wanna be submissive, I think many want equal 50:50 share where both give n receive.

          The problem is assuming what people want in fantasy is anyway what they want in reality, last night in a game I killed 100 animals n humans, in reality I fucking hate needless death and regularly rescue frogs n other animals if they get in the house cuz I don’t want them to die. Fantasy =/= Reality.

        • Sarah said: “I’m probably not as negative about porn as you are Erin but I admit it makes me uncomfortable. I don’t think watching porn automatically means that a guy hates women or wants to hurt women in his real life, but that kind of porn is extremely popular and do I believe that it must speak to a dark part of the male psyche. I don’t think someone can enjoy porn where women are being abused and not feel a lot of unconscious hostility toward women. (I realize not all guys like that kind of porn.”

          I am pretty negative about porn. It’s such a difficult issue. And one that has become even more diificult since it’s everywhere and a lot of guys seem to talk about it like it’s the most normal healthy thing in the world. I think we are confusing “sex” being normal and healthy and “porn”. Porn isn’t sex, even if it depicts sex.

          I am totally with you on the part I qouted above. I wish more men were open to talking about those scarey dark places that some men go to in their porn world. It’s a scarey thing as a woman to see how much hate there is for your gender in combination with expectations placed on your body and actions that just aren’t anything cloes to real. And it’s sad for me when men say things like, “we don’t expect you to look like pornstars, but boy do we like those pornstars.” Or make suggestions about “watching porn together” of these incredibly perfect looking women because you both know you don’t look like them but he sure wants to enjoy them.

          You also mentioned why people like something like The Sopranos. At least with The Sopranos, they probably aren’t masturbating to it. So the masturbating part really does change things and floods the brain with all kind of re-wiring and chemcials in ways that simply watching something and enjoying it probably wouldn’t.

          • Those chemicals are released in all pleasurable activities. I feel you are focusing way too much on the brain re-wiring and assuming these men are being reprogrammed by porn somehow, this might be true for some men but I’d say the majority have always found porn itself to be good, and that it really doesn’t change them all that much if at all. The only thing porn did for me really is make me think hmm, that might be fun to try, I’ll ask my partner if she wants to try the reverse cowgirl, but I’ve had the same thoughts from reading guides about sex positions.

            Maybe some people see too much into porn usage, see stuff that probably isn’t there for most people? What about video games though, plenty of enjoyment n dopamine released with those, does it mean they want to kill people? I was so happy when I did a headshot from 1000meters, excited, thrilled, some might think it’s because I killed the person but really it’s because it’s extremely hard to do in the game and it was a sense of accomplishment. The only person to know what is going on inside a man’s brain during his porn usage, is the man himself.

            Do you ever ask yourself why many men don’t open up about their fantasies? You have proven so often on here that you completely misunderstand men and why they look at porn, why would they want to open up to you only to be misinterpreted and demonized, act as if they want to degrade women, etc? If you assume the men hate women because they watch porn, a medium which does have a lot of misogyny then why would he open up to you? You’ve already made up your mind, you don’t seem open at all to learning or understanding why men look at porn, you continually make statements of what men think, what men do, why men look at porn, you’re womansplaining and quite frankly your opinions aren’t rare at all. It’s no wonder men find it hard to open up to women about the fantasies, especially when some can’t seem to understand the simple fact that fantasy isn’t a reflection of what they want in reality in all cases!

            • Well like I said, I think we ALL feel a certain amount of hostility towards others that we know we can’t express in reality, and probably don’t want to. Why do so many people enjoy the fantasy of being a mob boss? Because it’s a thrilling power trip. I think the desire to watch women degraded in porn (to the extent someone likes that kind of porn) comes from the same place in the psyche, so in that sense it is a symptom of misogyny i.e. “hatred of women.” but that doesn’t mean a guy who likes to see women degraded in porn hates all women all the time, or that he would ever really try to act that way toward women in reality. But there’s no point denying that the desire is there, because that’s why that kind of porn is exciting. Also, in many cases men probably don’t see it as degrading the way women do, they just see it as a fantasy of being surrounded by women who have no needs, desires, or wants of their own and who are completely subservient to male needs, who they can please or abuse however they see fit. Again, that does not mean that men really want that from women in reality, in fact it would probably be creepy in reality. Just like women who read 50 Shades of Grey don’t really want to be in a relationship with a borderline sociopathic control freak with kinky sexual tastes.

              This is why personally I think it’s often risky to be too open about one’s sexual fantasies. It is too,easy to misinterpret and may end up upsetting the other person. So say what if one of my fantasies involves having wild sex with a guy with a ginormous penis. If I tell my partner about it, I should probably leave out the ginormous dick part, or he’s going to feel insecure. All I’m saying is you should be judicious about what fantasies you reveal. Porn is unfiltered which is why I think many women find it upsetting.

            • Thing is the fantasies only apply to some, yet too often many women will think ALL men like the degrading stuff. Not only that but they seem to regularly misunderstand what the men desire from porn, their own insecurities cloud their vision and they start to try guess what the man is thinking, get it wrong, and beat themselves up over assumptions men are misogynists, want to degrade women etc, meanwhile the men are probably thinking “yay, boobies” and not anywhere near as bad as what many women most likely assume.

            • It sounds like your are downplaying the way women can feel and think about the subject because you think the way you approach the subject is better. It’s like you are reducing the way women view the subject because you think the way you view it is the “right” way. I don’t think that’s fair.

            • You said: “Those chemicals are released in all pleasurable activities. I feel you are focusing way too much on the brain re-wiring and assuming these men are being reprogrammed by porn somehow, this might be true for some men but I’d say the majority have always found porn itself to be good, and that it really doesn’t change them all that much if at all. “

              It’s true for “human beings” Archy! There are some good articles on this website that attack this issue from a medical standpoint and show the way that porn re-wires the brain. If a man has been viewing porn since he was a little boy, and most men have, you can’t not think that some parts of his brain haven’t been re-wired!

              You said: “Do you ever ask yourself why many men don’t open up about their fantasies? You have proven so often on here that you completely misunderstand men and why they look at porn, why would they want to open up to you only to be misinterpreted and demonized, act as if they want to degrade women, etc?”

              I guess you understand women so much better that your comments toward me are completely valid right? You’re just so much better at understanding women and men that your points are the “right ones”. Congrats on being such a better more well rounded person who apparently gets women and men so much better that your comments are so equal and fair to both sides.

              You said: “If you assume the men hate women because they watch porn, a medium which does have a lot of misogyny then why would he open up to you?”

              I NEVER said that I “assume” that men hate women because they watch porn. I actually agree with Sarah on some of the points she made about this. It’s not such a black and white issue. I don’t think men are “bad” or hate women if they like porn. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t think there also isn’t something going on that is really a scary and hurtful thing to witness as a woman that men INFACT do like about porn! Oh but I guess I am suppose to keep those thoughts to myself because hey, “it’s just fantasy” right so it’s okay. I guess I am suppose to just ignore all the issues I see with porn and the way men use it because of all the equal, kind, sweet love making porn you personally like.

              You said: “You’ve already made up your mind, you don’t seem open at all to learning or understanding why men look at porn…”

              Right back at ya.

              You said: “It’s no wonder men find it hard to open up to women about the fantasies, especially when some can’t seem to understand the simple fact that fantasy isn’t a reflection of what they want in reality in all cases!”

              Yeah I get it..it’s all women’s fault. Poor men. They don’t do anything to contribute to this issue. How dare women be bothered by the way they are protrayed in porn! It’s women’s fault that men don’t open up. It’s women’s fault that men have to turn to porn in the first place. It’s women’s fault that women are projected the way they are.

            • “I guess you understand women so much better that your comments toward me are completely valid right? You’re just so much better at understanding women and men that your points are the “right ones”. Congrats on being such a better more well rounded person who apparently gets women and men so much better that your comments are so equal and fair to both sides. ”

              I believe I understand men better, seeing as I am a man, and have talked about sex and other topics with men quite a lot, I am a man who looks at porn thus have first hand knowledge on what at least one man thinks of during porn. You’re a woman, you can know to a point but unless you were also once a man I doubt you could truly grasp the level of understanding just as I wouldn’t be able to understand a woman anywhere close to the level you can. Even so, neither of us can mindread people and assume what they think when they look at porn, we can guess but that’s it. You I believe have crossed into telling men what they think in some of your comments hence why I believe you completely misunderstand them, I as a man do not experience much of what you say men think or do.

              “Oh but I guess I am suppose to keep those thoughts to myself because hey, “it’s just fantasy” right so it’s okay. I guess I am suppose to just ignore all the issues I see with porn and the way men use it because of all the equal, kind, sweet love making porn you personally like. ”
              You can speak your mind all you want, I am only saying that acting one way can make men silent.

              “You said: “You’ve already made up your mind, you don’t seem open at all to learning or understanding why men look at porn…”

              Right back at ya. ”
              I am constantly learning why men and women look at porn, my mind isn’t made up at all, it’s always evolving, I don’t try to say how men or women think as you have. So it’s not really something you can throw back at me…

              “You said: “It’s no wonder men find it hard to open up to women about the fantasies, especially when some can’t seem to understand the simple fact that fantasy isn’t a reflection of what they want in reality in all cases!”

              Yeah I get it..it’s all women’s fault. Poor men. They don’t do anything to contribute to this issue. How dare women be bothered by the way they are portrayed in porn! It’s women’s fault that men don’t open up. It’s women’s fault that men have to turn to porn in the first place. It’s women’s fault that women are projected the way they are.”
              Of course, read into my comment whatever you will. I was saying that men do have a real barrier to opening up to women when some women completely misunderstand them, and then go on to to state what those men are thinking. Would you open up to someone like that who tells you what you think, desire? Not simply saying I think maybe they feel that way, but literally stating it? Both men n women share blame for the pitfalls of porn usage, have I ever stated otherwise?

            • Actually, when men claim up or lie about their sexual fantasies and desires, it’s usually because a women in their lives has ‘trained’ them to do so by punishing honesty and openness. Sometimes all it takes is a “Gee, your opinion makes me sad and depressed” to teach men that it’s better to lie to you.

            • For sure Copyleft, if a man does anything, usually it’s a woman’s fault why he did it.

              If a woman does infact feel sad and depressed about a response he gives, what should she do instead? Hide it? Not be hoenst with him? Because her honesty is hurful to him? So he is allowed to be honest but what is she suppose to do? Suck it up and shut up? And if she is honest about how she feels it’s her fault if he lies to her to save her feelings? What is the answer here if a woman is sad and depressed in response to something he says? What do you suggest she do? Ignore her own feelings in favor of his? I would really be interested in knowing what you think she should do.

            • Gross generalization, not surprising considering the source.

              What I’m getting at is focused on this particular topic, on this particular forum. The goal here is for MEN to expore and discuss issues that matter to MEN (see the title?). If women keep showing up and condemning men for voicing their honest opinions, the purpose of the site is defeated. If women find our comments enlightening, great; if they find them sad and depressing, that’s too bad. But the conversation is still going to happen.

            • How is it it’s okay for you to both put me down and generalize and that’s acceptable in your book but you think it’s okay to “call me out” for what you perceive to be “gross generalizations. You don’t get to say things like “not surprising considering the source” in your attempts to passively aggressively put me down. That’s wrong Copyleft. You also have made your fair share of generalizations. When you said, ” Actually, when men claim up or lie about their sexual fantasies and desires, it’s usually because a women in their lives has ‘trained’ them to do so by punishing honesty and openness”, you realize that is a generalization right???

              The purpose of this website is to have a discussion about men that go beyond the typical discussion about men that you will find on sites like Askmen and other silly male-fluff websites. The purpose of this website is for men to talk about issues that affect them AND consider others outside of themselves that they have daily relationships that are part of their lives. Whether that be their parents, kids or women. I think it’s great that men want to explore issues that affect them. But if all you want to do is a man is explore issues that affect you and not think about how your actiosn affect others that may or may not be men, then you are missing a big chunk of what makes this site so special.

              As for who is condeming who, it doesn’t get past me that you completely and 100% purposely condemned me when you said “not surprising considering the source”, but that was okay right? It’s okay for you to take shots like that right?

              If you want to be fully hoenst with women, great. You should be. But you also must be willing to accept their fully honest response in return. If you are looking to have only one sided discussions where you get to talk about everything you feel and think and if you only want people, especially women to nodd their heads and agree with everything you say, then you are going to miss out on a big chunk of human interaction.

              It is not fair to manipulate women into not having their own honest thoughts and common in response to yours by telling women they make you lie because they will voice concerns of saddness or disappointment. If a woman feels saddness or disappointment what do you want her to do? I asked a legit question and you ignored it. Do you want women not to give voice to what they are feeling? Do you want them to only accept what men say and deny how those things make them feel? Are women suppose to pretend they don’t think and feel things just so men don’t lie to them?

              You aren’t being fair Copyleft. If a man lies to a woman because he is afraid of his reaction, no one did that but HIM. She didn’t force him to do anything. Take responsibility for the choices YOU as a man make and stop blaming women. If a man is honest with a woman and she respondes by saying that she is sad and depressed about that response, talk to her like a human being and explore those feelings with her. Don’t berate her and tell her that she is only training me nto lie to her because she was hoenst about what she thought about his comments. It seems that you don’t want honesty from women. You don’t really want to know what they are thinking and feeling. You only want them to listen to what you are thinking and feeling and nodd their head and agree with it. So you tell me Copyleft, if a man is being honest about something and in response a woman is saddened and disappointed, what would you ideally like her to do? Not express those things? Not be hoenst with him in return? Keep those things locked down so that he is free to express everything he wants while she isn’t free to do the same?

            • Not that anyone asked, but I want both to say what’s on their mind.
              “If a woman does infact feel sad and depressed about a response he gives, what should she do instead?”
              Give a response, but try avoid painting all men like that is what I’d like. My problem comes from when an individual male replies, and a woman comes in and blasts men as a group instead of that lone male. The demonization part comes when the good parts are overlooked n the bad parts are clung to like they’re the only thing that exists. I’m glad women and men speak up about what bothers them, I just hope they also see not everyone is the same and whilst some men are misogynist, others are not. These debates can often cause a very anti-porn stance to come out in some people, and the level of pain or degradation they feel can also feel like they condemn anyone that looks at the material. The ones looking at ethical porn for instance can often get swept up into the generalization of all porn is bad which is a common narrative.

              Basically try avoid generalizations, or at least stating what people do is a good start. What you feel is one thing, and we will listen and reply, what you say we do though is a different story and that’s the part I see sometimes in your comments that feels like demonization. You probably don’t mean to do it though, but it does feel like you don’t listen but want us to listen at times and I’m sure you feel the same way about some of us too. Obviously communication is being mixed up a bit here, but do continue to speak your mind as you’re welcome to reply and I’ll do my best to listen. We may not agree though on everything, and that’s ok.

              You’ve helped illustrate stuff I wasn’t paying attention to much, and it’s made me hate the pro porn industry even more because it affects women like yourself, I hope other men listen and at least change what porn they look at to more ethical stuff. I hope they also communicate with their partner about their porn usage, and vice versa, understanding each other better is sorely needed. One thing that actually stuck out was the changing of positions regularly I’ve seen some people talk about, how that can be annoying, being as sex education is fairly limited I think it’d be a good idea for men and women to read actual sex guides vs relying purely on porn. Porn gave me a few ideas to try but I also look at sex guides to ensure it’s not just something that looks good for the camera, as I truly want both my partner and I to feel good.

              Tl;dr Express everything but don’t demonize, your voice is still appreciated.

            • “Those chemicals are released in all pleasurable activities. I feel you are focusing way too much on the brain re-wiring and assuming these men are being reprogrammed by porn somehow, this might be true for some men but I’d say the majority have always found porn itself to be good, and that it really doesn’t change them all that much if at all.”

              Archy, brain re-wiring is true for human beings! We are SO easily adapted to the material we regularly consume. It’s the reason that Amish people live very muted lives cut off from modern convience. Brain re-wiring happens in pretty much all people to some degree. It even happens in women and IS happening in women since women are more accepting of masculine dominated porn and adopting fantasies that are in general, have an imbalance of male desire/pleasure first. Which is great for men but women are loosing something in themselves by this imbalance.

            • “It even happens in women and IS happening in women since women are more accepting of masculine dominated porn and adopting fantasies that are in general, have an imbalance of male desire/pleasure first. Which is great for men but women are loosing something in themselves by this imbalance.”
              It’s up to women to demand and consume the porn they want, also men to demand more equal porn. Women do have agency you know, they too can select porn that is egalitarian in nature, if women are accepting that kind of porn then doesn’t that also mean they like putting male pleasure first? It’s similar logic to how you say a lot of men are choosing porn which is degrading right…?

          • Nick, mostly says:

            I wish more men were open to talking about those scarey dark places that some men go to in their porn world.

            I would totally be open to talking about that, if I ever went to any of those scary dark places. But that stuff has never been appealing to me, so I’ve never had to grapple with my preferences being in conflict with my idealism.
            I imagine it would be like women who have rape fantasies. I mean, rape is a terrible thing and obviously she doesn’t really want to be raped. Yet still the fantasy persists and is highly arousing for some women. How one resolves that conflict I don’t know, but I would guess it requires drawing a sharp distinction between fantasy life and real life.

            • Lies, you’re a man, of course you have those dark fantasies. God, some of the women here really are scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to guess what us men are thinking huh? At least she is saying only some men have it, kudos for that, but others are pretty much implying ALL of us men have those dark places.

              How much is confirmation bias tainting their view of porn? If you seek out bad porn, you’ll find it. Do you ladies actually try to find good porn?

            • Isn’t “good” porn the stuff I watch and “bad” porn the stuff that doesn’t turn me on?

              I’ve certainly been with women who were turned on by the idea of being “forced” or “raped” or “taken” or whatever the pc phrase is. They didn’t have much trouble getting the point across and I didn’t have much trouble enjoying the fantasy. It’s not a terribly “dark” thing at all. No more so, anyway, than a roller coaster or bungee jump or sky diving. Less so, I’d say, in the sense that sky diving and bungees carry more than an illusion of danger and some actual non-trivial risk.

            • I would argue that rspe fantasies, or any fantasy of humiliation or abuse, whether one is the perpetrator or recipient, do come from a “dark place” in the sense that all of our violent, sadistic impulses come from the aggressive chimp side of our nature. That doesn’t mean it’s bad or wrong, just that we should be aware of it. Why do people like watch car crashes in auto races or a guy getting his face beat to a pulp in boxing? Why do people like violent movies? because, as humans, we like violence and danger and the idea of being able to do something taboo.

              It bugs me when men claim that even though they may like abusive porn sometimes, it doesn’t reflect any underlying hostility toward women. I just can’t believe that; if you think about it, it makes no psychological sense. But that doesn’t mean they are bad people or hate women all the time. That’s where I differ from Erin, I try to understand it as simply an aspect of human nature we all share. Women have violent fantasies for a variety of reasons (i.e. liking the feeling of being the object of someone else’s overwhelming lust, being excited by the sense of danger), men’s reasons are complicated too. I admit it bothers me and I’m not sure I ‘d want to be in a relationship with someone who liked the degrading or abusive kinds of porn but that’s just me. I don’t think all porn is bad even though it generally expresses male fantasies of power and control.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Well, it makes sense if you look at our psychology in simplistic terms, but in fact our brain is comprised of competing systems and motivations, and there isn’t any simple modus ponens explanation for our behavior.

              There are many reasons for rape fantasies, and not all of them have to do with violence. I’ve heard explanations ranging from being the object of desire, as you recount, to being able to have sex without agency (you can’t be slut-shamed if you’re taken by force).

              And then there are those of us who simply aren’t attracted to violence. Perhaps we were passed-over when they were handing out the brutish chimpanzee genes. :)

            • “It bugs me when men claim that even though they may like abusive porn sometimes, it doesn’t reflect any underlying hostility toward women. ”
              Which men? Are they watching the porn because of hostility to women, or are they watching it because that’s how they think being dominant is? Is it because they find aggression sexy in fantasy? It doesn’t mean they have to be hostile at all towards women as a whole, or even any woman, could simply be they want rough sex with a bit of pain, nipple clamps or whatever the F floats their boat. Although that depends if you include the guy inflicting pain and guy recieving pain stuff as abusive or what? Doesn’t do anything except make me look for a different video as I don’t find pain sexy but some seem to get off on it, so maybe what’s abusive in our eyes is actually a huge turn on to some men and women. There are videos where men get kicked in the nuts for pleasure, I dunno how in F’s name that is even remotely sexy but someone obviously likes it. If the people involved consented to it fully, would watching it mean you hate women/men? It’s controlled violence but applied in a manner mostly meant for sexual arousal and not like torture, etc. I’m sure some do hate women though, I hope they get past their issues n meet some decent women who change their mind!

            • Well, guys in comment threads like this one, or maybe not this one specifically, but in other discussions I’ve read.

              The authorof the article says that liking porn doesn’t mean he hates women and I agree with that. He doesn’t say what kind of porn he likes, just that non-degrading stuff is out there. I’ll take him at his word that he doesn’t get turned out by degradation or abuse.

              But, what about all the guys who DO like seeing porn where women are degraded or abused? I have read comments from guys (not here) who argue that liking that kind of porn means nothing and it doesn’t reflect any feelings they have about women, that’s what bugs me. OF COURSE it means something. ALL out fantasies meam something, it may not mean that that they are stark raging misogynists, it may not mean anything aout how they treat women in their lives. I liked watching the Sopranos but that doesn’t mean I want to chase a guy down with my car and run him over because he owes me money (to take an example from the first episode). But yeah I’d say it reflects an underlying enjoyment of violence, along with an enjoyment of the great acting, witty dialogue and fully realized characters. My argument is that we all have complex impulses and some of those impulses are violent and not very nice.

              I don’t like abusive porn, I don’t like slasher films either. I know people who love slasher films and I think those people are a bit twisted. But I also know people who see a slasher film once and a great while, like myself, and it’s no big deal. Sometimes we all have strange urges to be grossed out, disgusted, or frightened for some inexplicable reason.

              There was an article in Slate.com yesterday about a woman who is a dominatrix and she talked about how it’s an outlet for her anger. She talked about once punching a boyfriend in the face and another time she got angry at her boyfriend and she grabbed a whip. The scene she’s part of sounded pretty dark to me. But she impressed me as self-aware, actually. She admits she’s angry and doesn’t pretend otherwise.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Sarah, I don’t think you have any support for your argument that what someone likes in their sexuality is caused by what they like outside of their sexuality. Instead, all you’ve presented is an argument from incredulity.

              I like pain, but it doesn’t turn me on at all. I know a woman who likes to be spanked during sex, but doesn’t consider it “violence” and is against violence in every aspect of her non-sexual life. You have simply asserted that because she likes this one form of violence, it is connected to some other deep-rooted like of violence, an assertion that you’ve provided no evidence for and an assertion that has very little explanatory power for other kinks and fetishes. Are you speaking only from personal experience and anecdote?

            • Sarah, they might simply want to dominate or abuse one woman, vs all women. Humans are strange, fantasies are even stranger, It may not actually be the abusing woman part that turns them on, but simply the abuse itself and that women are just who they are attracted to, if they were gay they’d maybe like abuse against men porn. But these are only guesses as I have no real idea why they would wanna look, it’s a huge turnoff to me, the closest I’d try is maybe let a partner tie me up, or tie a partner up (but in a way that they can easily pull it loose) but even that feels odd to me and icky, I ONLY ever want consenting sex and that’s all that turns me on. Abusive porn is more likely going to make me want to get the abuser arrested, or get the abused away from them.

            • I’m not saying it’s “bad” to like whatever you happen to like. But if a guy really gets turned on by watching abusive or degrading porn, well yeah I thank that comes from somewhere. I can’t say exactly where it comes from for any particular person, I’m not a mind reader. But it means SOMETHING – that’s all I’m saying. It’s not devoid of meaning psychologically. You can’t say that. Everything we do and feel has meaning and relevance to us in some way. But, does it mean someone is a bad person for being turned on by violence or degredation? No. But if I found out my boyfriend really liked “abused teen” porn for example, I’d probably conclude he had some repressed anger issues toward women. What importance that has to who is as a person is a different question. Personally there are certain things that would be a deal breaker for me and abusive porn might be a deal breaker but it would depend on the context.

              I’m not talking about light “erotic spanking” BTW. I consider that something that is mildly aggressive at most. You are throwing that example out there to undermine what I’m saying even though clearly that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the issue of why do some guys get sexually aroused by the idea of seeing women seriously hurt or abused.

              Also, again, where our sexual tastes come from and what they mean is very individual, I can’t say what it is,psychologically that causes some people to enjoy being hurt or abused. again, my point is only that it means something psychologically. It has some resonance with that person for whatever reason.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Who said anything about “light?” And what makes one thing “violent” behavior and another thing “light erotic” behavior? But here is the problem I’m having with this exchange: you claim to know men’s motivations in general and my motivations in particular, such as when you wrote:

              You are throwing that example out there to undermine what I’m saying even though clearly that’s not what I’m talking about.

              Is that so? My intent was to undermine your point with something non-germaine? What makes you so certain?

              I’m not saying that there isn’t a reason for our desires – I’m saying that there are many and various reasons that may give rise to a single observable behavior. So my friend likes to be spanked, hard, during sex. Why? Because she was spanked as a child? Because she’s into pain, and spanking is more “acceptable” than flogging? Because she has an underlying attraction to violence? I don’t know, and neither do you. The difference between us is that you’re claiming to know, and I’m asking you how it is you’ve arrived at that knowledge.

              You’ll probably say that you don’t claim to know; in fact, you’ve written as much above.

              I can’t say exactly where it comes from for any particular person, I’m not a mind reader.

              And yet, at the very same time, in addition to reading my mind about my motivation for including the example, you write

              But if I found out my boyfriend really liked “abused teen” porn for example, I’d probably conclude he had some repressed anger issues toward women.

              There is a way you can know why your boyfriend liked that porn: you could ask him. Your comments heretofore have been conjecture about what porn people like, and why they like it, and yet you’ve discounted the one way you could affirm or disprove your assumptions – asking men. I bet if you asked your boyfriend without judgement or reproach, if you gave him a safe place to be vulnerable, he’d likely tell you. It’s probably easier to jump to conclusions though; conversation can be difficult.

            • @Nick, look, you keep deliberately misconstruing what I’m saying. All I’m saying is that liking abusive porn has psychological relevance. I can’t say why any particular person likes it but I find it extremely relevant whereas you think it means nothing. I would argue that if a guy likes “abused teen” porn yet claims it means nothing to him, he lacks self awareness. What it means in particular I can’t say, except that I would probably suspect it was a sign of underlying issues although I don’t know what issues. Maybe he’s angry because the women he finds most attractive don’t like him. Maybe he feels sexually powerless and wants to hurt vulnerable young women for revenge. Maybe he gets aroused by the idea of making women cry because it’s a power trip, the way boys sometimes like to make their sisters cry (and visa versa). I don’t know! But I would never just brush it off as being completely unrelated to who he is. I’d say it’s an important piece of information which would require further exploration to understand.

              We will just have to agree to disagree.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              I’m not arguing in bad faith not am I trying to misconstrue what you’re saying, deliberately or through carelessness. I’m reading what you’ve written and giving you my understanding of what you’ve written. That’s why I take pains to quote what you’ve written – to call attention to where you’ve written something and how I’ve interpreted it.

              So in that light, you’ve just written

              I can’t say why any particular person likes it but I find it extremely relevant whereas you think it means nothing.

              I would challenge you to find anything I’ve written where I’ve said it means nothing. I’ve looked back and I can’t even see where I might have given that impression. Instead I simply will reassert that I don’t know why people are attracted to the things they are, that there can be multiple reasons – and yes, some can be and likely are negative – but that best way to gain an understanding about why any one person likes something is to ask them.

              So what do we disagree about? My assertion above or something else?

            • Sarah said: It bugs me when men claim that even though they may like abusive porn sometimes, it doesn’t reflect any underlying hostility toward women. I just can’t believe that; if you think about it, it makes no psychological sense. But that doesn’t mean they are bad people or hate women all the time. That’s where I differ from Erin, I try to understand it as simply an aspect of human nature we all share. Women have violent fantasies for a variety of reasons (i.e. liking the feeling of being the object of someone else’s overwhelming lust, being excited by the sense of danger), men’s reasons are complicated too. I admit it bothers me and I’m not sure I ‘d want to be in a relationship with someone who liked the degrading or abusive kinds of porn but that’s just me. I don’t think all porn is bad even though it generally expresses male fantasies of power and control.”

              Actually Sarah, we agree more on this than we disagree.

          • I want to thank Erin, Sarah, and all the others who are sharing their thoughts and feelings here. I commented early on to the article and have been reading the posts. This is the reason that Good Men Project is so important. Where else could we have a serious discussion about controversial topics that impact men, women, children, and all our relationships? I hope we all can appreciate the power of this kind of dialogue in the world. Men and women are different and pornography is one of the places where these differences come out. We haven’t even talked about “female pornography” with such literature as “Romance Novels.” They feed women’s fantasies and show a very unrealistic view of men. But they say something important about our desires, needs, hopes, and dreams. Let’s continue to share our hearts and souls as well as our thoughts and perceptions.

  18. Porn is way easier than sex with another person. I’m a relatively unemotional person and other people’s emotions usually are draining to me. And prostitutes are expensive and illegal so that leaves the simplest way as porn.

    In my teens and twenties I had an active normal sex life but too many women became emotionally attached even after they said they could handle FWB. After that I became celibate and just had friends and even without sex several of them wanted to be in relationships.

    So I just decided to have lesbian friends or female friends who thought I was physically unattractive and that is working out fine. And since self pleasure causes none of those entanglements, two days a week I masturbate to porn to get sexual relief and save myself the trouble of dating and getting romantically involved.

  19. Fascinating post, Roger.

    Discussing one’s sexual likes and dislikes in the context of what your mate has just done in bed can prove a slippery slope requiring the most delicate of handling. Finding a way to say you didn’t enjoy that without actually saying you “didn’t enjoy that” is a necessity.

    Handled poorly, sexual discussions can quickly degenerate into accusations and bruised feelings.

    (Perhaps this tension about sexual matters speaks to deeper problems within the relationship—I won’t argue that point.)

    I’d say this, though, if a relationship ever becomes contentious as regards sexual discussion you can probably kiss goodbye most of the naturalness and spontaneity in your sex life forever.

  20. Roger Barnett says:

    Thank you to everyone who has posted comments about this article. You have done so with intelligence, passion, care, and much input from your own personal experience, which can be a big ask in a public forum. In doing so, you have raised at least as many interesting and important points as anything that the original opener.
    I appreciate the appreciation, it’s been very touching – thank you. I also appreciate the points of disagreement, especially those of you that have spoken against the trend of the discussion. Diversity of perspective is crucial.

    Several people have called me on my unconscious assumption, or assertion, that everyone has the right to have good sex. You’re right – that’s not true. Not all of us have access to sex with other people and, for those that do, not all of us have the luxury of a communicative, enthusiastic approach to sex in relationships like the dynamic I allude to.
    I am reminded that sometimes porn isn’t a happy addition to a happy sex-life; porn is the sex-life. I’m sorry that I momentarily forgot this.

    It’s true that addiction (however we define it) to porn is a problem for some. It’s also true that we need to be very careful about how young people’s access to porn is managed – I guess that’s one of the drivers for me behind this thread, that we need to tackle this stuff directly, consciously, and openly.

    I declare that for me, the mistakes I learned from porn were literal; I didn’t know what I didn’t know.

    Nathan, thank you for reminding us that some of you are attempting to portray delightfully complex human conditions!

    Erin, you raise about 6000 interesting points – thank you.
    I agree with you about much. It might not seem like this to you, but you and I have some very similar values, and much of what motivates you to write is what motivates me.
    There is porn out there that is horribly misogynistic. There is a lot of porn that is awfully stereotyped. Much porn is conceptualised, financed, performed, filmed, edited, and marketed by people who shouldn’t be playing the role of educator, and who probably don’t even realise that’s what they’re doing.
    I’m against all of it.
    However, reading what you’ve written, it’s like you believe that literally any film of a man and a woman having some form of sex is automatically derogatory (but only to the women). I disagree with you here.
    To take the example of ‘jack-hammering’… Personally, I think that kind of activity is over-rated, stereotypical condition, at best occasionally enjoyable as part of a more diverse sex life, and it’s tiring (which means that the sex act is likely to be short)! But it’s not misogynistic per se, unless you think that all sex is. And the fact that others (the jack-hammer-er and the jack-hammer-ee) enjoy that sort of thing far more than I do, and good for them!
    The situation is different if the act is accompanied by hatred-filled dialogue (etc.). But I’m not sure how much of all the porn that’s out there falls into that category; to the extent that accurate data is available, there seems to be a trend that traditional mainstream porn is on its way out, and amateur are ‘reality’ porn is now far more popular (and I’m also aware that almost a third of internet porn is being watched by women). It saddens me that so much misogynistic porn is still around, and still being made… but then, it also saddens me that our analysis of gender politics and sexuality so thoroughly rips men to shreds. I’m not sure who, if anyone, wins, overall.
    Since you specifically draw my attention to it: Some porn degrades women. Some doesn’t. I’m sorry if it hasn’t come across, but I had hoped to highlight where I stand on the difference between the two, and try and play a role in educating young people – boys, in particular – that if the first porn they find happens to be degrading to women, that they shouldn’t stop there.
    However, if you are of the belief that all porn is degrading, then we’re not in agreement.
    One last thing: You ask for an honest, un-politically correct debate about porn. Trust me, I have given it my best shot. Many people here have; you’re one of them. Thanks.

    • You said: “It saddens me that so much misogynistic porn is still around, and still being made… but then, it also saddens me that our analysis of gender politics and sexuality so thoroughly rips men to shreds. I’m not sure who, if anyone, wins, overall.”

      And it saddens me how much porn rips real woman’s sexuality to shreds, real women’s bodies, real women’s feelings and needs in favor of a largely dominated male industry that caters to mostly male desires and whims, even in the porn that you probably don’t personally consider degrading. But we don’t ever stop to consider how porn rips apart real feminity or women. Simply because it brings men pleasure.

      • “And it saddens me how much porn rips real woman’s sexuality to shreds, real women’s bodies, real women’s feelings and needs in favor of a largely dominated male industry that caters to mostly male desires and whims, even in the porn that you probably don’t personally consider degrading. But we don’t ever stop to consider how porn rips apart real feminity or women. Simply because it brings men pleasure.”
        What complete n utter bullshit. Porn has been the subject of thought policing for decades. It’s been studied in depth, a lot of literature is written on how harmful it can be, how it rips apart femininity or women, you really expect me to believe that just because it brings men pleasure that it is free from criticism n reflection? Who is WE in all of this? I dunno about you but I was considering how harmful it could be to women back as far as probably high-school, where my anger toward bad porn was born, where I started to seek out better material and do what I can to raise my own respect for both men n women. I purposely seek out porn that doesn’t rip apart femininity. Don’t speak for us all…

        • I spoke from a very honest place Archy. There is nothing in my comments there that is “bullshit”. I believe, truly believe that porn rips apart real woman’s feminity and sexuality. And I undesrtand that men don’t want to be ripped apart for their sexuality but neither do women. Yet everyday in the land of porn, there is proof of how real women and their real feminity and sexuality is being stolen in favor of an over fantasized ideal that is largely domianted by male desire first and most.

          I also get the impression that too many today are currently tying in their own sexuality with porn too much. It seems like a lot of men heavily connect their sexuality to porn instead of seeing porn as something seperate from themselves. So much that when I make comments about how degrading porn is toward women, I think men feel like I’m saying *he* is degrading toward women. I get the impression that men are not seperating themselves from porn and I think this problem as only increased with the amount of porn men today are currently viewing. Which if we are honest, is at a much higher level then any other point in history. Men love their porn and they are looking at it more then ever , more often.

          • I meant bullshit to porn not being debated, not that some women don’t feel ripped apart. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear enough.

            “So much that when I make comments about how degrading porn is toward women, I think men feel like I’m saying *he* is degrading toward women.”
            Part of why they’re specifically reacting to you is because your generalizations actually do include them, and the womansplaining parts have been demeaning themselves. There are things in your comments which wander from speaking of personal opinion to speaking fact, so it’s obvious why men (especially me) are getting defensive and annoyed. I don’t think any of us are disagreeing there is a lot of bad porn, the parts that are striking nerves are the parts that you aren’t just asking or guessing but you are literally demonizing men, where you as a woman are telling us men what we think, do, like in porn.

            “I believe, truly believe that porn rips apart real woman’s feminity and sexuality.”
            Do you think this is all or just most porn? Is there porn that can actually celebrate women? I find it hard to believe Camille Crimson’s porn rips apart women’ femininity and sexuality.

            “Which if we are honest, is at a much higher level then any other point in history. Men love their porn and they are looking at it more then ever , more often.”
            Access to porn + a culture that accepts sexuality being more open is finally upon us, if the internet were in roman days I guarantee porn use would have been high too. Hookup culture is also at one of it’s highest points too in history from what I know, sexuality is becoming more unrestricted. Do you want to go back to previous times? where masturbation was seen as a sin and men were circumcised to stop it? Where it was impure? Female sexuality itself is at an all time high, women are much more free to express their sexuality than before, I think it’s even celebrated more. Yeah there is a lot of degrading shit around, but there is also a lot of great stuff around. In the next decade I think the degrading stuff will drop in ratio with the good stuff, especially as more ethical porn is produced and more women take charge in making porn.

            “Yet everyday in the land of porn, there is proof of how real women and their real feminity and sexuality is being stolen in favor of an over fantasized ideal that is largely domianted by male desire first and most. ”
            There is also proof that women’s sexuality and femininity is celebrated, just depends what you watch.

            Porn isn’t going away, condemn the bad stuff but celebrate the good stuff, the medium is going through changes as amateur content is skyrocketing. Attitudes towards sex itself are changing, and hopefully for the better, the time you speak of when porn wasn’t used much was also a time when women had far less rights, were stuck even more so in gender roles, sexuality was oppressed. Was it really a better time? I think these days women’s sexuality is celebrated a fucktonne more than before when it was still the puritan based bullshit. If anythign men are far more egalitarian today than before, and I do think porn is changing and adapting to that. Of the porn views who have commented here at least, they are indicating a desire to look for ethical porn, that says something at least?

            The desire to look at porn will probably always exist, it’s better to talk about porn and acknowledge the good porn at least and direct people towards that than to simply deem it all degrading and throw it out. That is my point, I hope you will at least ask men n women to look at ethical porn where they can and to boycott the bad stuff.

  21. Sarah:
    But, what about all the guys who DO like seeing porn where women are degraded or abused? I have read comments from guys (not here) who argue that liking that kind of porn means nothing and it doesn’t reflect any feelings they have about women, that’s what bugs me. OF COURSE it means something.
    I’ll be the first to agree that to the guys that are into that stuff it does mean something. In fact I wager that something plays a big role in why a lot of guys don’t do that kind of stuff.

    There was an article in Slate.com yesterday about a woman who is a dominatrix and she talked about how it’s an outlet for her anger. She talked about once punching a boyfriend in the face and another time she got angry at her boyfriend and she grabbed a whip. The scene she’s part of sounded pretty dark to me. But she impressed me as self-aware, actually. She admits she’s angry and doesn’t pretend otherwise.
    So what would you say about a man who made the exact same confession about doing the same to girlfriends?

    I’m sure you wouldn’t make such an accusation but there is no way in hell that a guy would be able to make a similar confession about punching girlfriends in the without being called everything from a woman hater to misogynist to abuser to beater and calls to have him brought up on charges.

    You want to know why there are men out there that dark impulses but don’t admit them? Because unlike with women men and masculinity are tied to violence in such a way that nearly any male expression of violence and/or anger is assumed to be bad from the get go.

    This woman you speak of here it’s great that she acknowledges her anger but do you know what guys face when they try to do the same? We get lumped in with the worst of the bunch. They wouldn’t want a guy to just say that he hit a girlfriend and they damn sure wouldn’t find him to be self-aware and impressive. No the only way that would happen is if the guy were in the crash of a guilt trip where he is compelled to find some way to “make things right” or even get into one of those crowds that are working doing something about violence against women.

    We aren’t allowed to be angry and be self aware of it without being regarded as monsters. No we have to be on the edge suicide, or begging forgiveness, or vowing to “help women”, or some other form of atonement. Well I’ll say that such allowance is SLOWLY coming but for the most part an angry man is a bad man.

    • “There was an article in Slate.com yesterday about a woman who is a dominatrix and she talked about how it’s an outlet for her anger. She talked about once punching a boyfriend in the face and another time she got angry at her boyfriend and she grabbed a whip. The scene she’s part of sounded pretty dark to me. But she impressed me as self-aware, actually. She admits she’s angry and doesn’t pretend otherwise.”
      Punch a man in the face, she must be so self-aware! Is this girlpower to you Sarah? The way you made it sound….is odd. Abuse is abuse…

      Female privilege #99581-I can hit a man publicly and most likely NOT be in danger of getting my head smacked in by onlookers or arrested by police, infact they will probably support me and think of it as GRRLLLPOWER.

    • Well I thought she was self aware, not that she was admirable in any way! She admits she is angry which many males in her situation would not. Instead, they would emphasize that it’s all a consensual fantasy and claim they weren’t actually angry at women. But she’s like, yeah, I’m angry, and I’m even abusive at times to men because I’m angry. Again, I don’t find that admirable, but she’s honest about it, that was what I was pointing out. Actually the article felt kind a creepy to me, I’m glad I don’t have any urges to be part of that kind of scene.

      • Fair enough that don’t find her impressive, my bad on the misread.

        Instead, they would emphasize that it’s all a consensual fantasy and claim they weren’t actually angry at women.
        And do you know why they do that? Because men are already stigmatized as violent so when it comes to a man committing violence he is more likely to be condemned than a woman. While the woman you speak of has a strike against her for being into what seems to be kink if this were a man he would start off with two strikes, being into kink and being a man.

        Despite the gender of role of men calling for anger (because it’s not just “allowed” it’s expected if not demanded of us) if we admit our anger in some context other than asking for help or begging forgiveness we are labeled bad.

        Men are stuck in a double bind of we are supposed to be angry but when we are we are scolded for it. And when it comes to emotional health in general a lot of men face this double bind. When your choices are hide it or be scolded for is it any wonder that a lot of men choose to hide it?

        In short that woman has the female privilege of being able to openly and honestly say that she is angry and that she has hit people over it without being relentlessly scolded for it. She doesn’t have to worry about having the Duluth Model shoved up her ass and down her throat as being the reasons for why she is angry and expresses that anger through violence. In fact there is a good chance that people will make even more excuses for her than would be made for a violent man in a similar situation.

        I’ll try to make a bit of an analogy. I think you were in the comments in the “Who Has The Power In Dating?” post weren’t you? Remember that a big part of those comments was about the expectations behind the approach? I’m sure you also remember some of the women there fought against the idea that “women have it easy since they aren’t the that are expected to approach guys.”? Doesn’t seem right to try to end it at that and not go into why women aren’t expected to approach (much less what bad things that can happen when they do approach). That’s what I’m trying to say here.

        Men have been shut down emotionally to the point of simply not having many healthy outlets for even emtions that don’t stand as much of a chance of being as destructive as anger. I think it’s unfair to not take that into account when saying it’s a good thing a woman admits her anger and then cut guys off at “they wouldn’t admit it and would try to cover it up instead”.

        • I hear you, it’s a bind. I think what I am running into here intellectually is trying to understand for myself “why do some men (and women) like this kind of porn that I find so demeaning and disturbing, are they angry? What is it?” and some guys insist they aren’t angry, but then you are saying even if they were angry, they couldn’t admit it. I am honestly trying to understand it without going off onto a shrill and judgmental anti-porn stance, but some of the stuff out there does scare me and it bothers me that’s it’s popular. I guess I am trying to see it as an aspect of human nature that is maybe not so nice, but may reflect urges toward violence that we all have, as I’ve said in earlier comments.

          • “why do some men (and women) like this kind of porn that I find so demeaning and disturbing, are they angry? What is it?”
            I think one possible explanation for it (no matter how badly some folks want to pretend it doesn’t happen) is that (at least with guys) they get to a point of emptiness and loneliness that they eventually conclude “why should I care about other people when no one cares about me?”.

            Once that happens it’s not a giant leap to see how they would embrace things that others call demeaning. And I think there is some anger in that loneliness as well. (Some becomes lonely and then they become bitter and angry, you can see this even in children’s cartoons.)

            I guess I am trying to see it as an aspect of human nature that is maybe not so nice, but may reflect urges toward violence that we all have, as I’ve said in earlier comments.
            Possible. But bear in mind that once you add gender roles, individual experiences, and individual responses those urges towards violence and that human nature can shift drastically. Even among a single group of young boys that are friends and start watching porn at a young age you can end up with a mixture how they think of sex and relationships later in life.

            • Fabulous comments. The men not admitting the anger is the problem, so true, good point. What I find, and yes I’m a therapist, sue me!!!…is that the men are projecting onto the woman in the porn, that she is their caregiver (we all do this, I call it MOTHERFUCKING) and these men most likely did NOT get their needs met as an infant, or a child, and are screaming out in rage and want to punish their caregiver. However, the fact that these men, nor society, have any insight, or even a dialogue, about the increased violence against women is astounding. It’s like the pink elephant in the world. It’s ruling our entire society, and we hear nothing. To say it’s merely a “fantasy” is an emotional bypass. If women increasingly in large numbers got turned on by 10 year-old boys being brutalized by old men or women, men would FREAK OUT…or if your girlfriend masturbated to puppies getting kicked in the face…that wouldn’t fuck you up? “Hey honey, it’s just a fantasy.” What also depresses me that men’s instinct to dominate women is stronger than his instinct to protect her, which is a huge let down for me, anyway. Women see porn and instinctually want to help other women, from the man. Yes, I get mad against this abuse towards women, but I have compassion. If I could hug all these men, I would. At the end of the day all children with unmet needs. It’s the cycle of abuse. Now THEY have the power. Only the truly powerless, daydream of hurting someone who is physically weaker than them. Sexually bullies. Bullies are insecure!. Be well. I’m glad we are having this dialogue. Cheers to all:)

            • The Blurpo says:

              PeggyD, the best and actually the only way, is to ask the guys the why’s on porn. Otherwise, frankly its just intellectual masturbation akin to daydreaming. And what you describe, it doesent sound like porn but more like slasher movies.

              Read Danny, read Archy and others, there have been tons of explanation both in this topik and similar. And frankly im getting a bit tired of women jumping in and pointing fingers.

              Personally? I think that blaming others and coming with harsh judgement, followed by closure on the topik is more a common female behaviour. Also some guys do this, just look at the topiks concerning feminism (a point I made in another post of mine who got ignored) I see similar reactions from guys, exactly the same kind when women comment on porn. But it seems more prevalent in my experience, this kind of behaviour from women. I wonder why? is that a defensive mechanism? is that a cultural thingy? is that a communication style? I dont know.

              But summa summarum, ask the guys. Dont over think it, just ask, and take the answers for granted.

            • “If women increasingly in large numbers got turned on by 10 year-old boys being brutalized by old men or women, men would FREAK OUT”
              Wtf, are you trying to suggest there is a large number of men being turned on by child porn and it’s increasing? I’d say they’re a minority, a very smallll minority.

              The big problem are those anti-porn crusaders who try to state porn is so harmful to women, and then guys say they don’t look at violent porn only to be disbelieved and told they’re in denial. I’ve seen a lot of porn and the majority has been non-violent, there is also a huge shift to amateur porn which is now the dominant form of porn produced (sexting for instance). I’ve been told I look at rape porn because all porn is rape, that I’m degrading women etc and all this horrible shit even though the porn I watch is egalitarian couples having fun, or solo women who run their own business on webcam sites.

    • @Danny, I don’t find her impressive at all. She actually sounds like someone with major issues. That was my point, sorry if I didn’t make it well.

  22. It’s also possible that fantasies behave like release valves, and only when this gismo somehow corrodes, that issues creep in. It’s also possible that we need to fantasize with submission, to keep our empathy skills sharp. Like dreams – those free-running, unencumbered by physical bodies, free-falling obsessed episodes of nightly unconsciousness – their purposes could be to manage some human weakness on an erasable whiteboard. Or maybe not. Just to say that there are alternate ways of seeing it as a feature rather than a bug, unless it becomes a bug, to which the porn hounds on this thread seem to be conceding willingly.

  23. stephaniecleveland says:

    Question. What if my problem with your sexual use of women via porn stems not from the fact that I assume it makes you hate all women, but from the fundamental dynamic of men being able to buy sexual access to women in the first place, and from the fact that many, many (I would even say the majority of) women in the sex industry are there because they were victims of child sex abuse, they were taken advantage of by pornographers when they were young and naive and thought being in porn would be totally different, they get addicted to drugs, etc. Weather or not you give your own female partner the right to refuse brutal, body punishing sex in bed with you, it makes me feel really angry and sad as a woman that you think it’s okay for some women to be treated like that in pornography (and so much porn is connected these days–the same woman you see in a relatively soft-core feature film could be reduced to gang bang scenes, ATMs, having multiple men ejaculate on her, in a few years, when she’s considered used up and has to take more and more extreme jobs just to get work–the fact that you think it’s okay for “some” women to be treated like that by men feels, in and of itself, misogynist–and as a woman, I feel like I can’t have equality in a society where a certain class of women can be bought and sold and treated like fuck objects or masturbatory tools you pick up and put away, once you’re done jerking it. I don’t understand why men can’t masturbate without using women like that–surely men can come up with their own fantasies that are more egalitarian, and don’t involve capitalist consumption of mass-marketed porn. I grew up in a home with a father who used porn throughout my childhood, and though he still loved me and treated me well as his daughter, his use of pornography still impacted me. I learned that I could never expect to have a man’s love all to myself, or expect a partner not to use other women sexually from time to time. To me, that feels terrible. I think porn gives men an unfair advantage when it comes to sex–what you get in exchange for sex should be sex with another person–if you have to use money to manipulate a woman into getting fucked on camera for you, that’s coercion and it feels pretty terrible to me as a woman, weather or not men think I have a right to that hurt. If you listen to women who’ve exited the industry as well, they will tell you how unsafe it is, how they faked every orgasm and really hated it–it’s all a lie about women that you’re watching, and I believe that does affect your sexual soul as a man. I myself am not religious, but if you’d like to hear two ex porn stars talk about their negative experiences in the sex industry, I think this is a telling clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRZZAuPyG7I&list=FLHc_Kx_iveSKLTwffDF3jaQ&feature=mh_lolz
    Sexism isn’t always just conscious things like saying to yourself, “I hate women!”–I don’t think there are many men in the world who would admit to sexism that blatant–often it’s more subtle, and I think, though it might feel tough, if you really care about ALL women, looking at why you feel entitled to buy sexual access to women via porn would be a pro-feminist thing for you to do as a man. I believe that men can care, and change, and stop their porn use.

    • Nick, mostly says:

      Do you make a distinction between “commercial” porn and user-generated content, such as that found on the MLNP project by Cindy Gallop? That is, are you against all depictions of sexual activities between adults, or only those where you feel the consent is ill-informed or perhaps less than enthusiastic?

      • stephaniecleveland says:

        God, I have written you a lengthy response twice now, and this stupid page keeps refreshing the contents and deleting it at the last minute. I can’t access that site because it says “we’re beta darling, invitation only!” which turns me off in and of itself, but for the record, I’m a radical feminist who is proudly antiporn, and no, that does not mean I am against TRUE (let me stress that since the term is so misused these days, true!) erotica–which I’d define as explicit sexual material that depicts sex as being about mutuality, tenderness, gentleness, egalitarianism, and respect, particularly for women (and yes, I realize two that in a world where the average boy in the US downloads his first hard core porn at age 11, most guys out there can no longer respond to sex like that.” My definition of pornography is the same as MacKinnon and Dworkin’s, which defines porn as a form of sex discrimination, and states that pornography is “the graphic sexually explicit subordination of women, whether in pictures or in words, that also includes one or more of the following: 1 women are presented as sexual objects who enjoy pain or humiliation [whether or not the woman consented to be portrayed in that way or is over 18 or the porn was made by a woman doesn’t make a difference to me and honestly, I think the notion of women having the freedom to consent to that type of portrayal in a male dominant society in which we are groomed to base our self-esteem on whether or not men find us sexually attractive, are under tons of pressure to be the “cool girlfriend” who lets our boyfriend film us during sex and acts like it doesn’t hurt that he’s looking at other women getting fucked on video, even while he’s supposed to be in a committed relationship with us–I think the notion that women have the same kind of freedom to give consent that men do betrays overt male privilege–still in the US the only fields in which women out earn our male peers working in the same field are modelling and prostitution–that says something about the pressure we are under to sell sex. If a woman wants to film herself having sex, I think one needs to be careful about putting that on the internet–let’s say she gave consent to have a man tie her up and be rough with her–okay, some other woman’s boyfriend will now watch that, get the idea in his head that it would be cool to try out on his girlfriend, start pressuring her, and if she doesn’t want to do it, even if he respects her choice, now she’ll have this nagging doubt in her head about whether or not he would like her more if she did, the fact that he’s still probably using those videos when he’s alone, maybe even replaying them in his head while he’s having sex with her…it all feels pretty overwhelming and terrible, not to mention the fact that MAINSTREAM porn, the best selling stuff that most men use, is nightmarishly violent now–and the women in it are REAL PEOPLE–I can’t believe the guy who wrote this wanted to be sure we know he’s not anti-THAT. Men seem more concerned with finding some sort of less overtly violent porn that women will give the okay to, rather than opposing an industry that destroys so many women’s lives (and also, that is simply false that there has been no research showing that porn use impacts men’s treatment of women outside pornography–there have been studies that have shown, for example, that even repeated exposure to soft core porn made men less able to recognize acts of violence against women, less likely to believe a rape victim, etc. This man may not feel impacted himself, but he is not all men out there. I want to post this before I get erased again, thanks!

        • First off
          PLEASE USE PARAGRAPHS
          “I’m a radical feminist who is proudly antiporn, and no, that does not mean I am against TRUE (let me stress that since the term is so misused these days, true!) erotica–which I’d define as explicit sexual material that depicts sex as being about mutuality, tenderness, gentleness, egalitarianism, and respect, particularly for women”

          I watch mostly amateur porn. It’s a mix of “solo”, women who basically masturbate, and couples who usually go oral sex on each other, sometimes it’s a 69 or she get’s it first, then him, then they move on to PIV, he orgasms, she orgasms or he continues with oral till she does. There’s no dirty talk that is negative (eg calling her a slut), just good ol sex where it’s a real couple trying to get each other off n share in their pleasure. Would you define that as good porn? or erotica?

          “Men seem more concerned with finding some sort of less overtly violent porn that women will give the okay to, rather than opposing an industry that destroys so many women’s lives”
          I don’t pay for porn, I look at utube style sites which have ads for running costs. There is a lot of piracy in porn now doing damage but I see quite a huge amount of amateur content being created which is mostly the erotica? you talk about, egalitarian in nature, etc. I’m not sure how else I could oppose the pro porn inudstry apart from not funding it? I hate seeing violence in porn, all I care about seeing is sex in a fun and pleasurable way, I want to see all people in the video be happy, consenting, and enjoy their sex. I use it mostly to fantasize about life with a gf as I am currently single, it’ll most likely get shelved once I am in another relationship as I’d rather be with her.

          I understand you’re anti-porn, I agree with quite a lot you have to say, I am anti-some porn, but completely pro-good porn. I think we need to celebrate the good porn and make it the easiest to find whilst getting rid of bad porn or at least giving warnings about it’s content. I think most porn viewers simply want to see sex and considering how many I see talk about amateur porn I think the pro industry needs to wakeup and realize that many of us want to see good porn, not degrading filth. That said there are quite a few companies now I believe who are making good porn, abbywinters is a production company you might like.

        • Nick, mostly says:

          Sorry, forgot that it’s still in beta. Cindy Gallop gave a short TED talk about her vision of redefining porn. She agree with you about the deleterious effects of commercial porn on young people, but her solution isn’t to throw out the entire industry but rather to redefine it. One of the couples contributing videos to the project have put up some trailers on their blog: Uncommon Appetites. I wonder if this type of pornography might still be objectionable to you.

          There are a few things worth noting about some of your other objections. First, there is a strong correlation between access to pornography and a decrease in sexual assault. We find this both longitudinally as well as comparatively among the states. Second, while violent themes may be pervasive among commercial porn, commercial porn is losing ground rapidly whereas amateur porn (true amateur, not the commercial stuff by the same name) is the fastest growing segment of the market. Finally, what studios market and what people search for don’t necessarily overlap as much as you would think. The book A Billion Wicked Thoughts catalogs what people actually are looking for on the internet. There’s also one other key point made by the book that shouldn’t be lost on us. We have “no consensus on which sexual interests are normal, abnormal, or pathological. Scientists can’t even agree on the purpose of the female orgasm, whether there is such a thing as having too much sex, or whether sexual fantasies are innocent or dangerous.”

          So when you say “mainstream porn” you should realize that not only is it not what you think, but the definition is rapidly shifting as people have increasing access to what interests them, not what studios think should interest them.

          Incidentally, it’s not “pressure to sell sex” that leads to the price discrepancy, it’s the scarcity of sex and the willingness of the male buyers that raises the price. Don’t think for a second that women don’t also benefit from this arrangement; the more that sex is a “rare commodity” the more erotic capital women in general have, not just those selling sex for money. Women therefore have a vested interest in ensuring other women keep the price of sex high, which may account for why they engage in “slut shaming” as often as men. I’m not saying it’s a good thing, only that it’s not one-sided and there is considerable complexity to the interaction.

          • I’ve seen women commenting on the GMP basically showing anger that men have “easy access to sex” with porn, that they don’t “need” a woman, the comments looked like women were actually threatened by it. It did appear to look like the women were worried their erotic capital was losing value. It can appear in some cases at least, men want more sex, women want it more restricted. Do these women in particular feel like sex is their only drawcard?

        • Quite a bit of your rationalization is old school circular thinking radical feminism Stephanie – the notion that women cannot give meaningful consent due to the ubiquitous forces of patriarchy and male domination, requires a state of false consciousness for those that do provide consent, placing many forms of sexuality into the category of rapey – satisfying the premise of domination.

          That my forced desire to sexually please my partner renders me incapable of making willful decisions is a moral landscape that belongs back in the 70’s

          • stephaniecleveland says:

            Despite being in my thirties, you’re dead right–I’m an old school radical feminist. I don’t deny women their “agency” (and the academic speak works my nerves, as it does for many working class women outside the pomo university world)–patriarchy denies women our agency. Pretending male dominance isn’t alive and well and shaping everything about our sexual choices and what we learn to respond to seems a waste of time to me, but certainly it’ll make you more popular with most men out there. This sentence is feels convoluted and I have a hard time deciphering the last part of it: “the notion that women cannot give meaningful consent due to the ubiquitous forces of patriarchy and male domination, requires a state of false consciousness for those that do provide consent, placing many forms of sexuality into the category of rapey – satisfying the premise of domination.” I will say, I hope you don’t think it’s a feminist thing for you to do to tell me where I and my opinions belong. Didn’t say women can’t make decisions–what I SAID was that our decisions about sex don’t take place in a perfect world–they are shaped in this world, a world where, as this discussion powerfully shows, a woman gets attacked and made fun of if she dares to even suggest that men stop using pornography. Men did fine without porn (and the etimology of the word is “the graphic depiction of whores”–I’m really not sure how any man could expect me to want to reclaim some of that as “good porn” given that history). I appreciate Erin’s comments on here. Beyond that, all this feels really overwhelming and hateful to me, and makes me feel depressed about how much more willing to fight for their “right” to use women as masturbatory tools most of the men on here seem, than to fight for women’s equality. Look at this: “When I buy porn I don’t buy “sexual access” to them. I buy their pictures. Which are infinitely inferior to access to a real woman who’s that enthusiastic about sex.

            Nevertheless, I suppose I buy those pictures because a picture better than nothing and is sometimes preferable to a woman who’s not willing and enthusiastic about sex. I think the gripe has something to do with men being able to sidestep women’s ability to dictate men’s access to sex–even if that access is just a marginally better masturbation experience.

            If women want men to lay off the porn, be better in bed. More willing, more enthusiastic, more fun.”–This is exactly what I’m saying about pornography giving men an unfair advantage. If women don’t want to do something in bed, men get to use their economic and social power to ensure that there is always SOME CLASS of women somewhere who will do what they want. Nowadays, we’re expected to be “enthusiastic” about having dick rammed way down our throats or getting fucked in the ass, and you basically have two choices–work yourself into a mindset of learning to experience your own subordination as sexual, or spend a hell of a lot of time alone. Why don’t you tell “some guy” where he and his mindset belong? Easier to knock me–another woman with about the same social standing as you–down than to take on the men, isn’t it. Women would have a lot more leverage for getting the sex we want, which, yep, in my case is a hell of a lot gentler and more equal than what most men seem to value–if we didn’t have to contend with men’s ability to get a woman to do whatever they want via pornography. And, yeah, like Erin says, I have many women friends who’s bf’s have pushed these scenarios on them in the bedroom. Why should a man feel entitled to get whatever he wants from women? I’m sick of adapting my sexuality to men’s just to be considered “more fun in bed”–what about what’s more fun for me as a feminist woman? In this culture, if a woman is considered too fat, old, ugly or unattractive to get a guy, tough, she has to deal with it. Men should have to do the same, and they did perfectly fine for centuries without pornography. This guy seriously thinks women have all this power over men and are running the show–total sexism, and total obliviousness. I am seriously scared and sad beyond belief if all this is supposed to be what passes for being a “good man”…This discussion feels too scary and depressing for me to continue with anymore, Thanks again to Erin for his comments and not making me defend a different take on porn all on my own. I’m done.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              In this culture, if a woman is considered too fat, old, ugly or unattractive to get a guy, tough, she has to deal with it. Men should have to do the same, and they did perfectly fine for centuries without pornography.

              Because unattractive men have such an easy time of it…
              Also, you should get your history right. Pornography has been around for millennia. Most of those cave paintings they’ve found? Porn.

              I’m done.

              It was good to have your voice while it lasted. Please come back again sometime.

            • Thanks for catching this Nick.

              This is just what I mean when I (and others) talk about how women deny the experiences of men.

              And apprently we are supposed to believe that porn went from totally nonexistent to all over the place in the last 50 or so years….

              In this culture, if a woman is considered too fat, old, ugly or unattractive to get a guy, tough, she has to deal with it. Men should have to do the same,
              So does that mean that along with this whole “deal with it” we should be get rid of all those romance novels, fanfictions, and other sexual materials that cater to women? Or let me guess those things are somehow “different”?

            • stephaniecleveland says:

              Why should I come back? So you can ridicule me some more? This site just feels like a bunch of men complaining about how tough life is for them and how easy women have it, which is about like white folks complaining about how life is so easy if you’re black–it’s absurd? You’re comparing CAVE PAINTINGS to a multi billion dollar industry that profits off of depicting sex as “Man does to woman” and destroys so many women’s lives. Please, please, go find some pics of cave paintings in an anthropology book or a photo of the Venus of Willendorf and masturbate away!!! Jack it all day long if that makes you happy; even if porn has warped your fantasies to such an extend that they’re about degrading women, still, at least you wouldn’t be using actual, real women–because that’s hurting people. Masturbate. And if you get tired of being alone, get off your lazy ass and go find a woman and if you want to see her naked and get turned on in her presence, well damn! WORK FOR THAT SHIT. You are not entitled to an endless parade of women. God, male privilege is such a pain to deal with! When have I ever said I disapproved of men masturbating? I masturbate at least three times a week, and it pisses the shit out of me that so many men equate sex with porn I would be THRILLED if that’s what men were using, cave paintings–but we both know it’s not (and yes, it still would bother me for other guys to see me with my a guys dick in my mouth via amateur porn–bottom line, you don’t know why the girl did that with her boyfriend, and again, women are under tons of pressure to have sex on men’s terms, men’s way). Sex feels way sexier to me when it’s private, and healthier, I don’t want other guys seeing what I do with a lover privately, and I feel there’s less and less space in this world for women like me. Read some Bob Jensen, John Kinsella, Russ Funk, Rich Leader–there are men in the world who’ve rejected porn because it hurts women, and they wanted a deeper, more pro-feminist sex life for themselves too. Last thing, I fucking HATE romance novels–that is trite, cliched shit that bores the hell out of me (porn is the same, it makes my clitoris shrivel down to nothing, and makes me feel scared of men as well as bored–the penis is always like this symbol of power in every scrap of porn I’ve ever seen); can you get rid of shit like 50 shades of grey for me though? Seriously, take the romance fiction, I don’t need it. I have a mind of my own. Could you stop using porn if you wanted to even? Anyway, again, I feel really attacked by the men on here, and it depresses me that men are so hooked on this stuff. I really have to be done because this conversation makes me feel tired and worn out and lonely as a woman. Lonely women and men have it hard, yes–it wouldn’t make me feel better to exploit and humiliate some young dudes on camera for money though, really, I’d just like to have a loving, loyal, non-macho, non porn using partner, and porn is a damned poor substitute for that!

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Wow, from “scared and sad” to such vitriol. I’m not sure why you feel ridiculed, but that certainly wasn’t my intent. I’m also quite baffled as to why you feel “attacked.” Because I disagreed with some of what you wrote? Should I feel “attacked” because you disagree with me? You’ve gotta help us out here – who is attacking you? What did they say that you felt was an attack?

              Here’s the thing, though. My response about the cave paintings was to your comment that pornography has only been around for “centuries.” Indeed, the earliest examples of human created art that we know of depict pornographic scenes. They leave those out of the text books, but you can find them online if you search. My point is that there was no golden age pre-pornography; porn has been with us always.

              And surely you must know about the recent research on porn and relationships. Actually, there wasn’t any research because they couldn’t find a control group – all men had looked at porn. My advice to you, not that it was solicited, is to believe your partner when he tells you he doesn’t use porn, and not to go snooping. If you search, you’ll find that even the anti-porn crusaders get caught out using porn (hey, kinda like the anti-gay crusaders get caught with rent boys).

              And not to get all “feminist cred” on you and everything, but not only have I read all of those authors you list, including the earlier authors you referenced, but also a whole lot more. I’ve listened to Katherine Wilson’s speeches. I’ve attended presentations given by Gail Dines. I watched countless hours of videos critiquing and defending the pornography industry. Heck, I even married a feminist, one who went to one of the seven sisters colleges, whose mother is a feminist, whose aunt runs a lesbian-feminist collective. And I, myself, count myself as a feminist.

              I agree with a lot of what the anti-porn crusaders say. I think there are quite a few unsavory elements in the porn industry. I believe there is a lot of exploitation occurring. I believe there are a lot of women making ill-informed choices, or choices out of desperation or to fuel addictions. I believe a lot of porn depicts sexuality in unhealthy ways.

              Where I break with them and you is that I don’t believe the answer is to condemn the entire art form. I don’t say “all porn is evil always.” Instead, I ask myself, “what would porn look like if it met my ethical standards?” And I determined that it would have five key qualities:

              1) Profit would not be the driving motivation for producing it
              2) All persons involved will have given authentic consent
              3) It would depict authentic pleasure
              4) All persons are treated with dignity and respect
              5) The persons have real bodies unencumbered by saline and silicone

              I think such a thing exists; what’s more, I think I’ve actually found some that fits all five criteria. Here’s the test I would pose to you: what would “ethical porn” look like for you? You don’t have to want to see such porn, only imagine its existence. If there is no such thing, if porn can never be ethical, then it’s a sign your position is closer to dogmatic thought than it is a result of rational analysis. And let’s be clear about one thing here: people don’t know about the etymology of the word pornography, let alone have it in mind when they watch it. Do you think one of my favorite websites, Cabin Porn, had prostitutes in mind when they named the website? Normal people (and I don’t count myself among that set) don’t use words with their etymologies in mind.

              I’m finding your critiques of the commenters here to be off the mark. I count only three men who have replied to you – myself, Danny, and Archy – and I don’t see an attack among the responses. I see agreement on some points, and disagreement on others, and yet you claim we are attacking you. If you see a comment from one of us that represents an attack please point it out. Use the blockquote tag to quote it. You use it like this:

              <blockquote>This is a quote of something someone else wrote</blockquote>

              and it works like this:

              This is a quote of something someone else wrote

              I use this all the time to highlight something I’m responding to or a particular point of contention. I will often write things like, “I agree with you except when you say here…” and then use that blockquote tag to quote the section I disagree with. Is that what you consider an attack? That truly would be a curious take on discourse that I’ve yet to encounter.

            • “This site just feels like a bunch of men complaining about how tough life is for them and how easy women have it, which is about like white folks complaining about how life is so easy if you’re black–it’s absurd?”

              Comparing men vs women to blacks vs whites is a true sign of ignorance. You can’t compare them, the oppression to a minority was much different to the oppression towards pretty much 50% of the population. Then you have to consider that men were actually oppressed by things like conscription whereas people were never opressed for being white. Maybe it’s absurd because very few people actually bother to study how bad men’s lives are, they just often assume men are in power so men get it great. Radfems especially that I have seen have been so blinded by their viewing of women as oppressed that they never truly understand how bad men can have their life. Hell I’ve never met one that knows in a 1 year period that men n women were raped at the same rate as the CDC stats show.

              “And if you get tired of being alone, get off your lazy ass and go find a woman and if you want to see her naked and get turned on in her presence, well damn! WORK FOR THAT SHIT. You are not entitled to an endless parade of women. God, male privilege is such a pain to deal with!”
              Go find a woman? Do you think it’s truly that easy for everyone to find a partner? My friend with disabilities and body deformation would love to know what he can do short of getting a new body to make himself attractive to women. A woman telling a man to go get a partner as if every man has a decent chance of finding one, and you call us entitled? Newsflash, some men try and try hard but still fail.

              “and yes, it still would bother me for other guys to see me with my a guys dick in my mouth via amateur porn–bottom line, you don’t know why the girl did that with her boyfriend, and again, women are under tons of pressure to have sex on men’s terms, men’s way”
              Yes because women are poor innocent angels and the big bad men oppress them n force them to be their sexual slaves, women can never decide to make porn because she wants to, it’s always because they were abused and act out their abuse right? You have one of the most misogynist views I’ve ever seen, it’s like women are children in your world, completely n utterly incapable of rational and adult-level thought or decision-making.

              “Lonely women and men have it hard, yes–it wouldn’t make me feel better to exploit and humiliate some young dudes on camera for money though, really, I’d just like to have a loving, loyal, non-macho, non porn using partner, and porn is a damned poor substitute for that!”
              A lot of men would love a partner, I’d love a partner but it’s actually quite hard to find one. The way you frame it as men using women though says quite a lot, do you really think most men want to use women? Do I use women when I look at amateur porn?

              I can understand you have a lot of pain surrounding porn, but do you really think the majority of females feel the same way as you?

            • Yeah, I am really in agreement with StephanieC here. A couple cave drawing on the wall from yester-year is nothing like the medium we have today. I don’t fault people’s curiosity in sex. It just seems like voyerism is what people want their sexuality to be, it seems like there is a passiveness in sexuality today that didn’t exist before as much because people are using more visual mediums to self please. We are in a golden age of porn. A few short 20-30 years ago men were NOT THIS involved with porn. Today? I suspect that a lot of men are looking at a lot more porn then they ever had in history. It’s so available and he doens’t have to be accountable to anyone to pick it up. It’s fairly obvious to see the shift in the way men utilize porn today.

              I am also in agreement with Stephanie about the level of attacking that is going on in this subject. There are a few posters that feel it’s their right to repeatidly label other people here. This is a very passionate subject but if we don’t start really listening to one another and leave off the labeling, we aren’g going to get very far. There are many things I have been told I am in regards to this subject that I thought really demeaning to me and I’ve done my best to ignore those comments. But at a certain point, it gets ridiculous.

              I, like Stephanie, am left with a lot of the same impressions concerning male privilage and that it is running strong here right now.

            • “I am also in agreement with Stephanie about the level of attacking that is going on in this subject. There are a few posters that feel it’s their right to repeatidly label other people here.”
              Who is attacking who? Do you mean me when I say you are womansplaining? If so I am trying to point out the arrogance in assuming what men think, feel or do, everytime I’ve seen men do this they’ve often been blasted as misogynist. You may not mean to do it but that is how it’s coming across, it doesn’t mean you can’t voice your opinion but it does very much sound at times like you are stating for a fact what men are doing, thinking, feeling, vs stating your opinion.

              “We are in a golden age of porn. ”
              Internet has made access of porn quite easy, so yeah we probably are. Human sexuality is extremely powerful and that is evident in how many people are making their own porn, it’s not necessarily a bad thing but we do need education to avoid the issues that can arise from it. Education on how to have good sex is sorely needed, the only education I got officially on the matter was how to avoid STI’s and how babies are made, how do we learn about sex? Porn, guide books or websites, and friends are the only way we are educated.

              Why do you keep going on about males looking at porn though? A LOT of women are looking at it, they WANT to look at it, do so for their own pleasure, why this focus on males and male privilege? It sounds almost like you think only men are looking at it and using it? You do realize a lot of women use it right? And not because men are forcing them to?

              I don’t agree with much of what Stephanie has said, she seems to think women are children without the intelligence to make their own decisions from what I can tell, that society is forcing women at gunpoint to think one way yet men are afforded free will even though they too have social pressures as women do. Maybe I misunderstand her but that’s the impression I get, that women haven’t got agency and to me that is misogynistic and treats like like children. Maybe I believe women are stronger than that? More intelligent than that? She is free to tell me otherwise, I am trying my best to understand her thoughts.

              “There are many things I have been told I am in regards to this subject that I thought really demeaning to me and I’ve done my best to ignore those comments.”
              You do realize you’ve said some extremely demeaning stuff that men have been calling you out on right? Hell it’s why I called you out on the womansplaining. What comments in particular are you referring to? We’re not going to rollover n just let comments that are close to bigotry slide, just as I don’t expect you or others to do. It’s possible there is a major miscommunication going on but ignoring the comments won’t help clear the air up.

            • First off – don’t insinuate that my beliefs are born from my need to be more popular with men. Please strike this thought from any further conversations you wish to have between us. I do not “pretend” my beliefs.

              I’ve read a ton of Dworkin and Mackinnon (people you’ve quoted) and their work references exactly the message I conveyed in my post above. It’s their position that meaningful consent cannot exist in a culture of porn and male domination – not mine. Their position necessitates a state of false consciousness for any woman who makes decisions contrary to their world view.

              This is a conversation – not an attack, no one is making fun of you. That you wish to categorize it as such is very odd to me. I don’t know why you would get depressed when sharing your ideas with people who have different viewpoints.

            • I like how someone against the removal of female agency, a radfem, takes away your agency by suggesting you’re trying to be popular with the boys….

              Anyone who thinks meaninful consent isn’t possible in our western worlds for women really needs a wakeup call to reality. What’s with this whole view of women being the innocent lil flowers, men being the super-oppressors who force women into bed every time? It’s fucking disgusting, and misandrous AND misogynist all in one.

            • stephaniecleveland says:

              I get depressed when i feel totally alone. Pretty human, normal reaction. Again, I don’t get why you feel more like critiquing me as another woman rather than some of the outlandishly woman-hating shit men have said on here. We live in a patriarchal culture, and that shapes our desires and choices, women and men’s, yours and mine. I’m being called a misogynist by men, spoken too very condescendingly while you get their respect. Must feel good for you. Doesn’t for me though. I don’t think the desire to be popular with men is a conscious choice always, and I have done all sorts of things for male approval in my life. Misogyny is an internalized thing, not just the stuff you’re aware of. These men treat you with a great deal of respect. It feels good to be supported and agreed with, bad to be ostracized, alone, argued down. For you to act like my responding in that way is abnormal also feels hurtful. Enjoy these men, they clearly like you. I think it’s a form of sexism to expect me to be detached about an issue–namely pornography and men’s porn use–that has hurt and continues to hurt me deeply. Not every woman is able to experience it without pain the way you are. Goodbye.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              Way to go out on a melodramatic note. I share Elisa’s opinion that you characterizing others engaging with you as an attack is very odd. For myself, I’ve always felt that if my beliefs wither and fade under outside critique then they weren’t worth holding in the first place. If, on the other hand, they hold up against questioning then they’re all the stronger for it. It’s an attitude I had hoped is learned by freshman year in college, but perhaps that hope is unfounded.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              I swear I typed two esses there, elissa. Sorry about that.

            • Ok Stephanie – this exchange seems to be causing you undue stress, and I do get that you may be feeling like a lone ranger on here. This place can be pretty diverse.

              No worries Nick. I have a similar issue with my keyboard – I need to strike the “s” key twice to get one “s” to publish on the internet. I’ve narrowed down the cause to my eating crumbly things over the keyboard.

            • I keep seeing this… women coming to this site and declaring that men’s honest thoughts and opinions are “depressing and hateful and make me sad.”

              Should this be considered a shaming tactic? an attempt to get men to shut up and not express their views? Or is it just the usual entitlement attitude of “I’m not happy with what you said, so you’d damn well better do something about it”?

            • In my opinion, thise women, are people who somehow are bein hurt by porn or taught that porn is bad. I know tons of women who also watch porn or are not offended by it. So the position of some of the users on this site, is not universally applicable to all women. There are also guys who claim they dont watch porn and are opposed to it, but again their position are not applicable to all guys.

              The analogy I make is the opposition lot of men (and women) have against feminism (who seems to be a cursed topik on this site, just like porn). Just look at the reaction of the guys and compare it to the reaction of the women opposing porn. Basically the same.

              The only difference I see, is that guys at least are more willing to engage in a open discussion than women. Women on the other hand are more prone to throw hash judgements, without discussing. It may be cultural.

            • “women coming to this site and declaring that men’s honest thoughts and opinions are “depressing and hateful and make me sad. Should this be considered a shaming tactic?”

              The “hateful” part, yes. The “makes me sad” part, no. That’s just women expressing their experience. When something makes you sad and depressed, it makes you sad and depressed. It doesn’t mean that the world has to change for you. Some empathy and understanding would be *nice* but it’s not a guarantee. Say, my hypothetical son chose to go to the army. It would make me sad and depressed, and I think I deserve to be able to express that. It’s still his decision, but it would make me feel so much better if he at least took into account how I felt. He doesn’t have to change his mind, but he shouldn’t think I’m a terrible person or an entitled b*tch for feeling something that I can’t help feeling and expressing it.

            • “Doesn’t for me though. I don’t think the desire to be popular with men is a conscious choice always, and I have done all sorts of things for male approval in my life”
              You’re denying her agency, how is that not misogynistic? You’re ignoring what she is saying, you’re womansplaining her to boot. You’re TELLING HER THAT HER EXPERIENCE IS DIFFERENT TO WHAT SHE IS SAYING.

              “Enjoy these men, they clearly like you. ”
              You’re being sexist to her. How can you not see that?! It’s plainly obvious like the sky is blue.

              “We live in a patriarchal culture, and that shapes our desires and choices, women and men’s, yours and mine. I’m being called a misogynist by men, spoken too very condescendingly while you get their respect.”
              Because you’re being extremely sexist, to both men and women. Do you walk up to bees nests and slap them, then complain when they sting you? I find it disgusting how you’re dismissing Elissa’s opinion as not her own and just an attempt to get in with the men. It seriously is probably the most misogynist comment here.

            • ” If women don’t want to do something in bed, men get to use their economic and social power to ensure that there is always SOME CLASS of women somewhere who will do what they want.”
              Wow, really? you’re choosing this argument? Women have done this since time began, women use their dating power to find a partner who will behave how they want to get sex. Both men n women can goto a sex worker, both men and women can look at porn, yet you focus only on the men? Why? Do you think women rarely look at porn?

              “Nowadays, we’re expected to be “enthusiastic” about having dick rammed way down our throats or getting fucked in the ass, and you basically have two choices–work yourself into a mindset of learning to experience your own subordination as sexual, or spend a hell of a lot of time alone.”
              By who? I look at porn a lot and don’t expect women to be enthusastic about that, I’m not enthusiastic about that. How about you start asking men what they find sexy, get to know why they look at porn, it’s probably not as bad as you think.

              Here you can start with me. I look at porn because I am single and I like to see videos where I can fantasize about being with a woman. I don’t get much sex, I guess you can call me both sex and intimacy starved, so it’s even more of a drawcard for me. The porn I look at is mostly egalitarian where possible, I do look at some porn which is only one partner getting oral (both male n female. I also look at solo women masturbating, and also engage in webcam to webcam/sexting occasionally with a good friend.

              “Women would have a lot more leverage for getting the sex we want, which, yep, in my case is a hell of a lot gentler and more equal than what most men seem to value–if we didn’t have to contend with men’s ability to get a woman to do whatever they want via pornography.”
              So basically, you’re a misandrist right? You see men more negatively than you see women? You think women’s sexuality is morally superior than men’s. Is this common with radical feminists because I consider it bigotry and have seen similar comments by radfems.

              “I’m sick of adapting my sexuality to men’s just to be considered “more fun in bed”–what about what’s more fun for me as a feminist woman?”
              A lot of men make compromises for their partners, do you think men get exactly what they want? Let them know what you want, it’s up to each person in a relationship to say what they want so they can both work out a happy middleground. How many men do you think are sick of having to adapt themselves to fit women’s view of sexuality? Why should a woman be entitled to get what she wants? This argument swings both ways and you have to remember these are individuals commenting here. Some want lots of sex, some want only a lil bit, some like oral, some don’t. A person who is fun to me in bed isn’t going to be fun to everyone else, the key is to find someone we’re compatible with.

              ” I am seriously scared and sad beyond belief if all this is supposed to be what passes for being a “good man”…This discussion feels too scary and depressing for me to continue with anymore, Thanks again to Erin for his comments and not making me defend a different take on porn all on my own. I’m done.”

              You generalize badly about porn, is it no wonder you can’t see the benefits of porn? Erin is a female by the way, nice job at actually reading her comments.

              ” This guy seriously thinks women have all this power over men and are running the show–total sexism, and total obliviousness.”
              Total sexism like how men have power over women under patriarchy? Or can’t women have power in your worldview? I see plenty of women have power in dating, even use sex as a weapon of control and abuse. If you want to see women having power then take a look at any relationship with a woman withholding sex and intimacy for a man, and the effect it has on him.

              When you hear a man likes porn, do you automatically assume he’s into gaggers, hard anal sex, and degradation of women? If your answer to this is yes then congratulations on not understanding men.

            • I figured Erin was a woman. I can’t even find her comments on her, reading through a lot of yours and other guys, I get hung up. No I don’t think all men who use pornography are into overt violence, but Playboy was degrading enough to make me feel terrible as a little girl.

            • Can’t say I really looked at playboy, if I did it was just basically “look, boobies”, I was too young to be turned on by it. My porn started with internet porn and even then I was going for amateur porn as I felt the pro porn stuff felt too fake, too disconnected from reality. I only ever wanted to basically imagine being with a gf as I was single for a long time.

            • Nowadays, we’re expected to be “enthusiastic” about having dick rammed way down our throats or getting fucked in the ass, and you basically have two choices–work yourself into a mindset of learning to experience your own subordination as sexual, or spend a hell of a lot of time alone.

              I actually kind of agree with you, here, Stephanie (although I’m a porn watcher myself.) I remember when I was 19, and first started having sex, my boyfriend jammed his dick down my throat without asking (after we’d had a big dinner), and I threw up all over him. I felt humiliated (luckily, he was a very nice guy and we had a good laugh about it later), but I couldn’t help feeling that something was wrong with me because I couldn’t immediately play the part of the porn star. Because something went wrong and I was no longer the fantasy he probably wanted. I’ve also had several experiences where a guy just tried to jam it up my ass with no lube, preparation, warning, communication (and I have a very small asshole, so it was very painful). I’m all about ‘good, giving, game’ ala Dan Savage. I’m 110% game for these things (love oral, learning to enjoy anal), but it won’t always be as seamless as in porn. Having to do a little work to get myself comfortable for new or uncomfortable experiences doesn’t mean that I’m not enthusiastic. And sometimes, I just want to be able focus on my pleasure instead of putting on a show for you. I’m definitely game for a show. I’m definitely game for rough (often times, I even need it). But sometimes, just let me relax and have an amazing orgasm. Just let me enjoy myself. It IS about you, but it’s not ALL about you. We’ll have some porn sex and I’ll love it. But occasionally, I’ll want some Boyz II Men sex (I’ll make love to you, like you want me to, and I’ll hold you tight, baby all through the night). Are you game for that too? Or should I look elsewhere?

              It seems a bit manipulative to blame the woman. “Hey babe, you don’t have the right to feel uncomfortable or inadequate about this because you’re not able to excitedly do everything I want you to. If you could just do it and be 22 your whole life, we wouldn’t have to deal with this, jeez.”

            • I’m really sorry that happened to you Aya.That sounds awful, I’m so sorry. I would like to believe there are still some guys in the world who wouldn’t want to do that to a woman, who still like just being close and gentle, but I don’t know anymore. Linda Marciano who was in deep throat got away from the guy who made porn of her and was able to find a husband who loved her I guess, even though she ultimately committed suicide…nobody cares about that though, people just talk about what a classic that film was now and giving blowjobs has become pretty much mandatory for all straight women I feel like. If you don’t want to deep throat it, some other woman will…it’s just all this pressure.

            • My partner deepthroated me, but I’m not really that long, average size. I left it up to her, kept asking if she was ok and she was fine with it. I’m probably not long enough to be uncomfy so I guess that helped, but I didn’t force her into it. I did rest my hand on her head for a little bit but I was stroking her hair n scalp, she did the action itself. EVERYTHING we did we talked about first, “You can kiss me if you want”, “You can touch this if you want”. I left the ball in her court, I told her I was ok with whatever and it was up to her whether she wanted to try stuff or not.

            • Yeah, Archy. The importance here is consent and that’s how you do it. Deep throating is by no means ‘degrading.’ It can be extremely sexy. It’s just a matter of doing it in a way that makes both parties comfortable. It’s not one sided either. There could also be things that she might want to try that you’re not comfortable with (like that woman in another thread who requested a threesome, but her partner didn’t feel comfortable), and you’re allowed to say no too.

            • I remember when I was 19, and first started having sex, my boyfriend jammed his dick down my throat without asking (after we’d had a big dinner), and I threw up all over him.
              I’m so you were put through such terrible treatment. And as a guy and porn watcher yes that is terrible treatment and speaks to just what Erin has been talking about when it comes to some of the guys that get unhealthy beliefs about sex from porn.

              It’s one thing to see it in porn and want to bring it up in the actual bedroom but to just do it, that’s a fucking line one should never cross.

            • It’s one thing to see it in porn and want to bring it up in the actual bedroom but to just do it, that’s a fucking line one should never cross.

              Danny, you are right on point. A lot of the people who do get sex education from porn really aren’t bad people, though. They just don’t KNOW. They haven’t had the experience or access to any real education about sex. And it’s not all men either. I’ve been having sex with a man who has watched his fair share of porn. He had spent a lot of years being single and needed the release. Yet, he’s also had experience with women in general, and is a very giving lover. He knows how to read cues, to listen to requests, to actually ask about the crazier things, and laugh when things don’t go seamlessly like in a production. His years of watching porn didn’t seem to affect him. When we do watch porn together, he makes SURE that I know, without a doubt, that I am far more beautiful to him than any girl we saw. And he doesn’t *need* it to enhance pleasure. He can get hard and cum just fine with only me. It’s more of an “added spice” occasionally than a compulsion. Even though the relationship itself is a mess, the sex life is great and frequent (at LEAST once a day at this point)–in large part because he makes me feel like the sexiest woman in the world.

              Yet, I still see porn causing problems with other men. One of my friends (we’re close enough to talk about this kind of thing) told me how he ruined things with a girl because he couldn’t orgasm without porn. He said she was beautiful, did nothing wrong, but he was just so used to the porn dynamic and his own hand. A potential partner who watches a lot of it started telling me what he wanted to do to me. Now some of it might have been natural fantasy, but some of it was VERY obviously machismo and telling me what he would THINK I need to hear. That he was ‘the man’ and would throw me around and last for 4 hours, do stuff I can’t even say here, make me scream, and shove things into me without asking. He made it feel like sex would be him showing off and performing rather than a mutual, fun experience. It was just too much pressure put on me (and thinking he got a lot of it from porn just reminded me that I’d never be perfectly lit), so I lost interest in having sex with him.

              It’s different for every person.

            • I meant to italicize your quote, Danny, but forgot. -_-

            • No problem. I’ll respond once I get home from work and can think.

            • A lot of the people who do get sex education from porn really aren’t bad people, though. They just don’t KNOW. They haven’t had the experience or access to any real education about sex.
              True indeed. With the two guys you mention.

              One of my friends (we’re close enough to talk about this kind of thing) told me how he ruined things with a girl because he couldn’t orgasm without porn. He said she was beautiful, did nothing wrong, but he was just so used to the porn dynamic and his own hand.
              Here’s the thing. It would be easy to just point at him and say it’s because of the porn and manage to not mention what you say about not having any access to real experience or education. This guys would be written off as just another “loser” that masturbated to porn to the point that he doesn’t know what to do when with a real woman and act as if he was always that way.

              Sexual experience with multiple people is supposed to be a multi-way street. Meaning that for your friend there short of actually meeting sex partners the only way he would gain any experience would be to become a rapist (which I’m sure most of us even in the tossing back and forth of comments can agree is wrong).

              Well it doesn’t seem like that is really being taken into account when people point to guys like that and say that the reason he isn’t connecting with others when it comes to sex is because he is buried himself in his porn, when in a lot of cases its the other way around and he buried himself in his porn because he wasn’t meeting and connecting with others.

              I think there is a problem of people being too quick to want to swoop in and pass judgement on guys like that without really trying to understand their situation. Oh they’ll repeat, “I get it. I really do.” until they are blue in the face but in the end I’m not sure they do since they seem to get the situation reversed as I showed in the paragraph above.

              So yeah it would be real easy and quick to say that he ruined his time with that woman because of his porn watching but that leaves the question of what were his alternatives in a world that is pressuring him to be all about the sex (and I think this is a crucial difference between men and women when it comes to sex, yes women have challenges and difficulties but one thing women aren’t facing like men is the idea that going out and having lots of sex is a defining part of being a woman, in fact I understand that it’s actually the opposite problem from women where wanting to have sex is a mark against one’s womanhood) and in his reality he’s not meeting any sex partners.

              As for your second guy.

              He made it feel like sex would be him showing off and performing rather than a mutual, fun experience.
              Chances are that is how he understood it to be. I know it’s not the same as what is expected of women but there is “performance” pressure for guys as well when it comes to sex.

              Some actual education would do them both some good. But so far it seems that instead of education there is too much of a rush to just call these guys bad or accuse them of taking on bad ideas or harming women or embracing ideas that harm women or however they want to say it.

              Yes it’s different for every person.

              Oh and thanks for being able to say that these things are harmful to men without wrapping it in a bow of “it hurts women primarily…………..and somewhere down the line it affects men too……some…..”.

            • Aya, I have had simliar experiences to you with men just doing things to your body without asking you if you would even enjoy them. I see a lot of heavily influence in some men’s sexual actions that I do think come from porn. It sometimes feels like men don’t want you to be a human being but this thing they do things too to masturbate in or on. I think that porn disconnects in general so it doesnt’ surprise me that men fall victim to behaving this way sometimes.

              I also sometimes wonder just how okay men really are with you not wanting to do the things they want to do. They may say it’s okay but I am sure sometimes they are disappointed that you don’t want to be and do all the crazy things they want you to do that they’ve seen in porn. They might not force you to do these things, they might talk to you about doing these things, but if they really want to do them, as a woman, a part of you can feel like your disappointing them. Who wants to feel like they are disappointing their partner? It’s just so over whelming all the things you are suppose to contend with as a woman and all the expectations on what you need to be or do to make it “fun”.

              Aya: “And it’s not all men either. I’ve been having sex with a man who has watched his fair share of porn. He had spent a lot of years being single and needed the release. Yet, he’s also had experience with women in general, and is a very giving lover. He knows how to read cues, to listen to requests, to actually ask about the crazier things, and laugh when things don’t go seamlessly like in a production. His years of watching porn didn’t seem to affect him. When we do watch porn together, he makes SURE that I know, without a doubt, that I am far more beautiful to him than any girl we saw. And he doesn’t *need* it to enhance pleasure. He can get hard and cum just fine with only me. It’s more of an “added spice” occasionally than a compulsion. Even though the relationship itself is a mess, the sex life is great and frequent (at LEAST once a day at this point)–in large part because he makes me feel like the sexiest woman in the world.”

              I personally think that alot of men give women lip service about teling them how beautiful they are or stuff a long this lines. Not because they really think that but because they are trying to perform for her and give her compliments he thinks she wants to here. I know that this line of thinking is cynical but rarely do I think men think their own partner is truly more beautiful then the milliosn of options they are looking at regularly through porn. There are always going to be other women he sees he likes more. But somehow, as a woman, you’re suppose to ignore that. I just don’t know how men expect you to ignore that. Or take him for his word when he is seeking out all kinds of visuals of different tpes of women that are nothing cloes to what you are. Especially if the visuals he is seeking out are of younger women with perfect bodies which is stil one of the most pervelant forms of porn out there. I know it’s cynical of me but I sometimes think men just shower their partner with compliments because he wants to keep the peace with her AND still enjoy his pornography at the same time. To me, I sense a lack insincerity with men concerning their porn use and how they see their real partners. There are studies done that talk about how much more negative men are toward their own partner after viewing porn. They criticsize her more and judge her more harshly. I can totally see why this would happen. And I think this happens more then we want to admit to ourselves, both men AND women.

            • “I personally think that alot of men give women lip service about teling them how beautiful they are or stuff a long this lines. ”
              Wow, some women really do want to be the special woman that no one else is more beautiful than? Just how entitled do you feel to be the most beautiful woman on Earth?

              There is ALWAYS going to be a more physically attractive person than you. You will age, your looks will fade, but attraction isn’t all about looks. Believe it or not but men are also attracted to personalities and I dare say most people in love think their lover is the most beautiful person anyway.

              What is with the NEED to be seen as perfect to your partner? All I’m seeing is this entitled feeling some women have where they expect to be the most beautiful woman on Earth to their partner, to be special, to be irreplaceable. Well sorry but no one is like that. Love is a powerful bond yes, it’s hard to think people can be replaced but people do love more than once, it’s possible you may both live happily ever after together or you may split n find new love. You don’t have to be the most beautiful woman to be special to someone! A man who finds another woman more physically attractive doesn’t mean he wants her, nor does it mean she is overall more attractive than you, especially when he is in love with you.

              This study you keep talking about, LINK IT. Does it say EVERY man is like that, or just some? Because unless more than 50% + do it then it’s only true for a minority of men.

              “I sense a lack insincerity with men concerning their porn use and how they see their real partners”

              Might be true for some, but not all. Why such a focus on one part of attraction anyway? Don’t you value more than your looks?

            • “Wow, some women really do want to be the special woman that no one else is more beautiful than? Just how entitled do you feel to be the most beautiful woman on Earth?”

              I never said that a woman wanted to be the most beautiful woman on Earth. I said she wanted to be the most beautiful woman to her man. She doesn’t ask the whole world to think she is gorgeous. Why is that “entitled”? Telling a woman she is simply entitled because she wants to be the most beautiful woman to her man is like telling a man he is entitled because blow jobs turn him on. Being beautiful to her man turns her on. But she is somehow evil for wanting that I guess.

              I think it’s really unfair that men get to judge women and their femininity by their looks but women are not allowed to feel beautiful and feminine in a man’s appreciation of her looks. I think it’s really unfair that we demand women experience a higher evolution of self acceptance when men don’t even know how to accept women for wh othe yreally are in real life for their real bodies and their real sexuality. I think it’s crappy that we tell women that they are “shallow” for worrying about their looks but we justify men looking at 18 year old twins with implants making out with each other.

              Archy: “There is ALWAYS going to be a more physically attractive person than you.”

              I never said different. There will also be many men that purposely seek out visuals of other much more physically attractive women then their own partners because their partner isn’t good enough for them alone.

              Archy: “You will age, your looks will fade, but attraction isn’t all about looks. Believe it or not but men are also attracted to personalities and I dare say most people in love think their lover is the most beautiful person anyway.”

              I will remember that as I get older and my looks fade and my man is telling me how attracted he is for my “personality” after I catch him watching 18-25 year old young women with nice little bodies in pornography.

              Archy: “What is with the NEED to be seen as perfect to your partner?”

              Huh? I never said that.

              Archy: “ All I’m seeing is this entitled feeling some women have where they expect to be the most beautiful woman on Earth to their partner, to be special, to be irreplaceable. Well sorry but no one is like that. “

              Okay. Got the message loud and clear. A woman isn’t special, irreplaceable or beautiful to her partner. He will always find other women more beautiful and just as special and possible interchangeable to take her place. Message received.

              Archy: “Love is a powerful bond yes, it’s hard to think people can be replaced but people do love more than once, it’s possible you may both live happily ever after together or you may split n find new love.”

              Oh okay. So women should stop wanting to feel special and close to their partner because hey..one day they may break up and hey, people can love more then one person. I will start stuffing those feelings I have to want to be special to one man down very deep so that none of my needs regarding that are ever met because hey, men need porn.

              Archy: “You don’t have to be the most beautiful woman to be special to someone! A man who finds another woman more physically attractive doesn’t mean he wants her, nor does it mean she is overall more attractive than you, especially when he is in love with you.”

              It just means that sometimes he wants to masturbate to her and imagine himself with her for a short time when your sick or on the rag. *thumbs up sign*

              Archy: “This study you keep talking about, LINK IT. Does it say EVERY man is like that, or just some? Because unless more than 50% + do it then it’s only true for a minority of men.”

              How about you start linking scientific data for your comments. Or am I on the only one that is held up to that standard while you get to say whatever you want with no scientific facts to back it up?

              Archy: “Might be true for some, but not all. Why such a focus on one part of attraction anyway? Don’t you value more than your looks?”

              Yeah you know what Arch. You are right. I don’t value myself more then my looks. You are so much a better man then I am woman because you just love and appreciate women so much and all the variety they offer you in their looks .But you aren’t shallow for wanting to experience such a wide variety of different looks in women. However I am shallow because A) I want to be beautiful to my man B) I want to be special to my man C) I don’t want to settle for being told how shallow I am for wondering and questioning how men view women through porn yet he is a kind well rounded individual that simply love sand appecriates so many different types of women he just needs to look at so much variety in looks in women because he values women so much.

            • “I think it’s really unfair that men get to judge women and their femininity by their looks but women are not allowed to feel beautiful and feminine in a man’s appreciation of her looks. I think it’s really unfair that we demand women experience a higher evolution of self acceptance when men don’t even know how to accept women for wh othe yreally are in real life for their real bodies and their real sexuality. I think it’s crappy that we tell women that they are “shallow” for worrying about their looks but we justify men looking at 18 year old twins with implants making out with each other.”
              Generalize some more why don’t you, of course you’re going to feel inadequate if you compare yourself to extremely beautiful women on your looks alone. Very few women win the genetic lotto + have the lifestyle that supports being in that super-hot category of people. But do you think a guy or girl looking at porn of those super hotties ONLY finds them attractive? It’s purely physical attraction at play, it can’t compare to things like love, or a combination of being physically and mentally attracted to someone.

              “I said she wanted to be the most beautiful woman to her man.”
              That’s where the feelings of love play a part, they boost her beauty A LOT. It’s the only way to keep that feeling of your partner being the most beautiful, and it’s not because of their looks. Human’s aren’t that shallow on the whole. If you also mean only have eyes for your partner, well humans vary there with polygamy, etc. I know that being in love makes me far less attracted to others and I have no desire to be with others, but that’s not based on her looks at all.

              Do you see why it’s pointless to compare your beauty to the pornstar? Those feelings of love are what make her the most beautiful, but if you went solely on physical attraction without those feelings of love then yeah lil miss perfect 18 probably beats a lot of women in looks. Does it make lil miss more beatiful than his partner? No. Hence why I said the 170 190 and 2000 or whatever attraction level. It’s the sum of a persons attraction, that emotional attraction + physical, the bonding chemicals or whatever magic happens is far far far far greater than physical attraction to lil miss 18 perfect body. Hence why I find it absolutely pointless to compare yourself to her. If she is there, a friend to him, where he could grow all of the other attraction n love etc then yeah I’d be worried but even then most people tend to be monogymous and still she wouldn’t compare. But our values probably differ, I don’t care if my partner masturbates to porn even if the guy is superhot, but if she doesn’t find me attractive then I’ll worry.

              “I will remember that as I get older and my looks fade and my man is telling me how attracted he is for my “personality” after I catch him watching 18-25 year old young women with nice little bodies in pornography.”
              That’s up to you both to solve, but still it doesn’t make you ugly. Many variables at play, is he choosing porn more than you? Is it interfering with your relationship? Are you a few years older or a decade or two than those in the video? I do understand how that is concerning, I also understand not everyone finds that concerning so hence it’s up to the couple to work out.

              “Okay. Got the message loud and clear. A woman isn’t special, irreplaceable or beautiful to her partner. He will always find other women more beautiful and just as special and possible interchangeable to take her place. Message received.”
              Granted, what I said came out wrong. Each love is special, irreplaceable, unique, but you can love again is more of what I mean to say. The woman I loved is unique, extremely special, at the time she was the most beautiful but who knows, I may fall in love again and feel that for another, but they will be beautiful in a different way. I don’t believe in there being only one true love, someone so special that you could never ever feel that again for someone else. Does that make more sense? The entitlement I was describing felt more like these women were feeling they were the very best and never ever could someone feel that way for another. To be the most beautiful, most special in someones life. Yeah it works out that way for some, they’ll stay together for ever but shit happens too, death, breakups, feelings change, it’s nice to think we’re irreplaceable as a partner, as someones one and only desire. Does that make more sense? Basically I mean we don’t have one love in our heart and if that get’s used up then no more falling in love again.

              “Oh okay. So women should stop wanting to feel special and close to their partner because hey..one day they may break up and hey, people can love more then one person. I will start stuffing those feelings I have to want to be special to one man down very deep so that none of my needs regarding that are ever met because hey, men need porn.”
              I’ve explained it in the worst possible way, and re-reading it I am pretty clueless as to why I even worded that comment that way, it sounds pretty damn disgusting so I apologize for the terrible explanation. I’ll try clarify.

              Nothing wrong with wanting to feel special and close to their partner, I’m saying you may not be someones only love if something does happen. But what I find troubling is the need to have everyone else be a zero on attraction, that’s the entitlement I meant, I dunno how to describe it better. It’s like expecting someone to disable their sex drive when you aren’t around and never be aroused by the sight of someone else. Our values here probably differ, my partner can look at porn if she wants but no more than that, and not porn of people she knows. Basically no cheating, but fantasize about strangers if she wants, I don’t care all that much. Fantasies and truly desiring are 2 different things, if that makes sense. The old, “you can look but don’t touch”? An expectation to be ONLY EVER turned on by your partner, to me it feels like entitlement, but I can understand why it is desirable.

              “It just means that sometimes he wants to masturbate to her and imagine himself with her for a short time when your sick or on the rag. *thumbs up sign*”
              I guess. It’ll bother some people but others are ok with it. You in particular don’t have to put up with it, and this is only some men we’re talking about (and women).

              “How about you start linking scientific data for your comments. Or am I on the only one that is held up to that standard while you get to say whatever you want with no scientific facts to back it up?”
              You make a wild claim of men being less attracted, so yeah you better link the study if you want me to take you seriously. If I make a statement like that, ask me for the study and I will link it. But do you see me saying studies show women do X? Pretty much the only time I mention studies on here is the abuse data and I’ve linked many many studies for those.

              “Yeah you know what Arch. You are right. I don’t value myself more then my looks. You are so much a better man then I am woman because you just love and appreciate women so much and all the variety they offer you in their looks .But you aren’t shallow for wanting to experience such a wide variety of different looks in women. However I am shallow because A) I want to be beautiful to my man B) I want to be special to my man C) I don’t want to settle for being told how shallow I am for wondering and questioning how men view women through porn yet he is a kind well rounded individual that simply love sand appecriates so many different types of women he just needs to look at so much variety in looks in women because he values women so much.”
              Oh quit playing the victim. Where did I say I was a better man? You’re putting words into my mouth and not debating in good faith here. Nearly everything you talk about on this topic has to do with looks to the point you grossly generalize about what men want, what they like, and you even have the gall to tell me what they think.

              I try to be sincere about my porn use, but quite frankly women like yourself make me want to keep it to myself. You misread my comments and others here, misunderstand us, generalize heavily, state facts without any evidence and then demonize us. Take a wild guess why men are reluctant to open up about their porn use, this issue is getting very heated and there isn’t much point in discussing it anymore. When you start putting words into my mouth so heavily I can’t see any more point to this discussion, if I have done the same to you than I apologize and please call me out on it so I can adjust my behavior. All I can say is everyone is different, talk with your partner and work it out from there. What I like, what I want, the stuff I’d do in a relationship will only be acceptable to some women, others will hate me for it, just as I’d hate them for some stuff yet other women would be ok for me. Porn use isn’t a big issue for me, and I doubt I’d wanna look at it anyway, some couples are ok with it, some aren’t. Try not to judge men from what you think they want in porn, try listen to what they want instead of telling us. You haven’t got a clue what I want from porn, that much is obvious.

            • “Generalize some more why don’t you….”

              I will, thank you. I have never shied away from the fact that I sometimes make generalizations. That’s how I talk about topics. It’s not going to change no matter how often you try to shame me for it.

              “..of course you’re going to feel inadequate if you compare yourself to extremely beautiful women on your looks alone. Very few women win the genetic lotto + have the lifestyle that supports being in that super-hot category of people. But do you think a guy or girl looking at porn of those super hotties ONLY finds them attractive? It’s purely physical attraction at play, it can’t compare to things like love, or a combination of being physically and mentally attracted to someone.”

              And yet, despite men having partners they are mentally and physically attached to, a lot of men still look at other women and porn. So apparently it’s not really a matter of mental and physical attraction being “better”. Because if it was, once a man had that, he wouldn’t look at porn. But many men in relationships still do.

              Regardless of al that, I said my piece on this already above. There is something you fundamentally may not understand about women and their own sets of needs in a relationship.

              “Do you see why it’s pointless to compare your beauty to the pornstar? Those feelings of love are what make her the most beautiful, but if you went solely on physical attraction without those feelings of love then yeah lil miss perfect 18 probably beats a lot of women in looks.”

              You aren’t going to rationalize away the fact that women will infact compare themselves to what men are attracted to! It is a way to factor in how you fit into it and a way to figure out your own sexuality.

              You consistently defend men’s attraction to other women and even younger hotter women. Yet you leave no room to understand where that puts a woman.

              Is it pointless to compare yourself to other women? No. It’s natural. And it’s a natural reaction when you see your partner looking at other women and you are trying to figure out where that puts you. Stop acting like what women do when they compare is “wrong” and “pointless” but what men do when they lust after other women is “right” and “okay”.

              If men are so much in favor of little miss perfect 18 year old, then that’s what he should go for! He shouldn’t settle for someone that isn’t what he really wants and then seek that out through other mediums to meet whatever desire or need he really wants from women. He doesn’t have to hurt his own partner this way. He has a choice. Unfortunately, even 18 year olds get older but he can always dump her when she gets too old and go for the next new 18 year old. At least he isn’t pretending anything. At least he doesn’t have to rate women in numbers about who is better then the other.

              “Does it make lil miss more beatiful than his partner? No. Hence why I said the 170 190 and 2000 or whatever attraction level. “

              I don’t get why it’s okay for you to compare women to the extent you get to label them with numbers of their physical worth to you but women aren’t suppose to compare themselves to each other because it’s pointless in your opinion. So basically you comparing women is okay but women comparing themselves to other women isn’t okay. Do you see how wrong and unfair that is for you to say?

              You said that younger women beat out other women. Why do you get to label women with numbers anyway? Why are you so special that you get to tell women their physical worth through a numbering scale? How about you and every man on this site start disclosing your early incomes and bank accounts and the women here can start labling you guys with numbers based on how we perceive your worth financially as potential partners. Would you and the other guys here feel good about that? Lets start dishing numbers of your worth based on your paychecks.
              “Hence why I find it absolutely pointless to compare yourself to her. If she is there, a friend to him, where he could grow all of the other attraction n love etc then yeah I’d be worried but even then most people tend to be monogymous and still she wouldn’t compare. But our values probably differ, I don’t care if my partner masturbates to porn even if the guy is superhot, but if she doesn’t find me attractive then I’ll worry.”

              Yes, you think it’s pointless for women to compare themselves to other women but it’s perfectly okay for you and other men to make comparisons about women’s looks against one another. Hence why it’s okay for you to number women based on what you think is their physical worth to you.

              Most porn is made for men and male fantasies exclusively over women. Of course you don’t care if a woman masturbates to porn. Most porn is made for men. The woman is usually the object in the movie. Even if there are shots of the guy, the woman is usually the object.

              “The entitlement I was describing felt more like these women were feeling they were the very best and never ever could someone feel that way for another. To be the most beautiful, most special in someones life. Yeah it works out that way for some, they’ll stay together for ever but shit happens too, death, breakups, feelings change, it’s nice to think we’re irreplaceable as a partner, as someones one and only desire. Does that make more sense? Basically I mean we don’t have one love in our heart and if that get’s used up then no more falling in love again.”

              I never said we had “one love in our heart”. I said that most women want to feel like the most special and beautiful woman to her man. I was not talking about all the variables about the ins and outs of why people break up. That wasn’t germane to my conversation. Women fundamentally want to be very beautiful to their partners.

              “But what I find troubling is the need to have everyone else be a zero on attraction, that’s the entitlement I meant, I dunno how to describe it better. It’s like expecting someone to disable their sex drive when you aren’t around and never be aroused by the sight of someone else. “

              Again, I never said someone wasn’t not suppose to be ever attracted to someone else every again.

              “You make a wild claim of men being less attracted, so yeah you better link the study if you want me to take you seriously.”

              It wasn’t a “wild claim” and I feel like you are putting me down.

              “If I make a statement like that, ask me for the study and I will link it.”

              You make statements like that all the time. I just don’t demand you scientifically back everything up.

              Nearly everything you talk about on this topic has to do with looks to the point you grossly generalize about what men want, what they like, and you even have the gall to tell me what they think”

              You think your generalizations are okay but mine aren’t.

              I try to be sincere about my porn use, but quite frankly women like yourself make me want to keep it to myself.

              Would you prefer I hide what I really think and feel about this subject so that you feel more confident in expressing yourself?

              Men like yourself make me not want to be vulnerable and open with men at all myself. I guess we are even.
              It sounds like you only want to be able to express your real and true feelings and opinions but you don’t want the same , at least from me, in return.

              “You misread my comments and others here, misunderstand us, generalize heavily, state facts without any evidence and then demonize us. “

              You have also misread comments, misunderstood, generalized and stated facts without any evidence and demonized me.

              Take a wild guess why men are reluctant to open up about their porn use, this issue is getting very heated and there isn’t much point in discussing it anymore.

              It’s all women’s fault why men don’t open up about their porn use. Next time a man tells me how much hotter 18 year olds are I will smile and tell him what a wonderful man he is right before a spread my legs. Would that be a better reaction?

              It seems to me that while a lot of guys, like yourself, want to be honest about your thoughts and feelings on porn and share them, you don’t seem to want to deal with honesty in return even if all the thoughts and feelings aren’t completely positive.

              “Try not to judge men from what you think they want in porn, try listen to what they want instead of telling us. You haven’t got a clue what I want from porn, that much is obvious.
              Read more at “

              It is hard not to judge men when you see very clear signals about what they like shown in porn Archy. And when those signals often surround their desires about what men are wishing women are or doing to please them.

              I also find it difficult that you are telling me that I shouldn’t judge men but you have been very vocal about the ways men judge women. Such as your judgement of me about me being the reason you don’t want to be open about porn. Or the millions of other judgements you’ve made of me. Or the judgements men make when they begin numbering women’s looks by the quality of her face and body according to him. Those are all judgments! It appears to me that you think your judgements are okay to make but mine aren’t. Men don’t want to be judged for their porn use but they are judging and cataloging women by their bodies through porn. That’s not fair.

            • I’ve suggested this before, but why don’t you and Archy just argue this offline? It is obviously very personal to both of you and the same arguments come up again and again here on the threads. I’m not sure that there is a reconciliation possible without personal communication.

            • “And yet, despite men having partners they are mentally and physically attached to, a lot of men still look at other women and porn. So apparently it’s not really a matter of mental and physical attraction being “better”. Because if it was, once a man had that, he wouldn’t look at porn. But many men in relationships still do. ”
              This is a tough one to answer, I have a feeling that many humans are more poly than monogymous. But I see members of both sexes still looking at porn, and members of the sex they’re attracted to even on the street. I think some don’t see the looking as a big deal but it depends on their partner, 2 people that enjoy porn can look but don’t touch and get along fine.

              “You consistently defend men’s attraction to other women and even younger hotter women. Yet you leave no room to understand where that puts a woman. ”
              I’m not trying to defend it, especially attraction to younger women, trying to explain why it happens for some men. I think people should be most attracted to their partner but I find it difficult to pass judgment on those with more polygymous tendancies hence why it’s important for the couple to work it out. If one partner hates it though, they need to work out how to fix it and I don’t think it’s good to look at porn if your partner hates it.

              “You aren’t going to rationalize away the fact that women will infact compare themselves to what men are attracted to! It is a way to factor in how you fit into it and a way to figure out your own sexuality. ”
              It’s not a great guide to go from though, what I find sexy in porn actually differs a bit to what I find sexy in real life and the women who I would approach for a relationship. I have fantasized about much older women, but I wouldn’t date them as I want someone my own age to try find love, build a family, grow old together with and not have a huge age gap to deal with. You can get an idea of what I find sexy in porn, or even maybe just a sexual sense from what porn I watch, but it’s not a perfect guide. What do you do if your partner likes furies? The animal-human hybrid cartoon porn pictures, or fantasizes about vampires? You can maybe play dressup for fantasy but do you feel bad about yourself because you aren’t a vampire? What if he gets off to gay porn but is a straight male? What about women who fantasize about rape, should their men feel bad because they don’t rape them or even consider raping them? Fantasy is not reality, some things carry through to the real world but not all of it does.

              “Is it pointless to compare yourself to other women? No. It’s natural. And it’s a natural reaction when you see your partner looking at other women and you are trying to figure out where that puts you. Stop acting like what women do when they compare is “wrong” and “pointless” but what men do when they lust after other women is “right” and “okay”. ”
              I dunno if it’s right or wrong, I think it’s fairly normal considering how many men and women do it. But be careful with comparing yourself to porn is basically all I can say now, you may be right in what you guess or you may be horribly wrong. You sound like you’re very monogymous, which is perfectly fine, you need to find someone similar to you. I think there is a problem with let’s say there is a scale, 0 – 100, 0 being polygymous, 100 being monogymous, a 90 marries a 20, the 20 looks at others, the 90 feels jealous and hurt (which is also normal), so what should they do? Either they compromise n try head to acceptance of the 20 becoming a 50 or higher, and the 90 lowers down a bit to be more accepting of the poly behaviour. Or they split up, or they stay together n have a bunch of arguments n feel bad. Sexual compatibility here matters a lot, so maybe those people who are upset with their partners porn use are unlucky and aren’t fully compatible. They need to work out what is ok and what isn’t.

              “If men are so much in favor of little miss perfect 18 year old, then that’s what he should go for! He shouldn’t settle for someone that isn’t what he really wants and then seek that out through other mediums to meet whatever desire or need he really wants from women. He doesn’t have to hurt his own partner this way. He has a choice. Unfortunately, even 18 year olds get older but he can always dump her when she gets too old and go for the next new 18 year old. At least he isn’t pretending anything. At least he doesn’t have to rate women in numbers about who is better then the other. ”
              Thing is he may only want them in fantasy, or may only be attracted to them in a sexual way, whereas they have a full range of attraction (physical n mental) for women his age. Again you’re focusing purely on the looks n age here, people can look, fantasize, masturbate to people they have no intention of dating or who they aren’t even compatible with for dating. Lust can be very shallow that way, but he can also be extremely attracted to women his age, or older. Not all men are in favour of little miss perfect 18 year old, that was only one example for ONE MAN not all men or the majority of men.

              “I don’t get why it’s okay for you to compare women to the extent you get to label them with numbers of their physical worth to you but women aren’t suppose to compare themselves to each other because it’s pointless in your opinion. So basically you comparing women is okay but women comparing themselves to other women isn’t okay. Do you see how wrong and unfair that is for you to say?”
              I am trying to explain attraction, it’s very very difficult! Comparing is useful sometimes, in this case simply to explain why someone can be physically attracted to supermodels whilst their overall attraction to their partner is a huge amount more. I didn’t say it’s pointless to compare yourself to other women overall, I meant pointless to compare to women in porn, do you understand the difference? I understand why people compare, I do it myself, I compare myself to men a lot, but to compare myself to the men in a medium for fantasy I don’t feel is very good as it’s only comparing 1 system of attraction that may or may not be representative of her feelings to the men she meets or me. She may get off to rape fantasies, but have no attraction to rapists. Maybe she likes SEEING huge penisis from an aesthetic meets sexual point of view, but doesn’t like them as they’re too big for her. Not everything we fantasize about is what we want in reality, I dunno how many times I have to say that for it to sink in. Comparing yourself to fantasy is only gonna hurt you, I’m not saying it’s wrong to do so, but it’s pointless. Fantasy reachs closer to perfection because it’s not limited by reality, but pretty much everyone understands it’s fantasy and that it won’t happen.

              “You said that younger women beat out other women. Why do you get to label women with numbers anyway? Why are you so special that you get to tell women their physical worth through a numbering scale? How about you and every man on this site start disclosing your early incomes and bank accounts and the women here can start labling you guys with numbers based on how we perceive your worth financially as potential partners. Would you and the other guys here feel good about that? Lets start dishing numbers of your worth based on your paychecks. ”
              It depends upon the person of course and what they find attractive, I also said little miss perfect 18, not just miss 18, meaning the women who are at the peak of beauty in our current culture which favours youthful skin, perfectly toned bodies, etc. By the way, the numbers are subjective, IT DEPENDS UPON THE PERSON. 100 to one person is 500 to another. I hate using numbers but I don’t know any other way to try explain attraction, I can say moderately attractive, very attracted, but that’s just another scale of attraction. What do you want me to do? Lie about attraction? Say that physical looks mean nothing? SOME men like older women, some like younger women, some like the same, some like a mix, it’s impossible to judge all men and women the same. I am not attracted to every woman, that doesn’t mean her worth is lower as there will be other guys attracted to her, the numbers are simply to describe a person’s attraction. There are some women who are high on physical attraction to quite a lot of people, the conventionally beautiful women.

              Many women already do compare men on finances, would you date a man without a job? Are you attracted to men who have no money of their own and are dependant? The men you date, do you feel they are more attractive than other men you meet? Would you date a man who is super obese or had something that made him physically unattractive to you?

              “Most porn is made for men and male fantasies exclusively over women. Of course you don’t care if a woman masturbates to porn. Most porn is made for men. The woman is usually the object in the movie. Even if there are shots of the guy, the woman is usually the object. ”
              Stop assuming what I care about.

              “It wasn’t a “wild claim” and I feel like you are putting me down.”
              Why?

              “You make statements like that all the time. I just don’t demand you scientifically back everything up.”
              I asked for the study to back it up, feel free to ask for what data I use.

              “Take a wild guess why men are reluctant to open up about their porn use, this issue is getting very heated and there isn’t much point in discussing it anymore.

              “It sounds like you only want to be able to express your real and true feelings and opinions but you don’t want the same , at least from me, in return.”
              When did I say that? I’m saying that if you go about it in the way you do quite often, don’t be surprised if they stop opening up. When you say stuff like how “porn shames everything about what real women are.” you simply generalize negatively and shame the man. You may not think generalizing is bad, but you have multiple commenters here telling you that you’re demonizing or misunderstanding them whilst also generalizing, don’t you see it’s harming the communication? And yes if I am doing it, point it out, I am trying to reduce my own generalizations which is hard when you live in a society that uses them heavily.

              It’s all women’s fault why men don’t open up about their porn use. Next time a man tells me how much hotter 18 year olds are I will smile and tell him what a wonderful man he is right before a spread my legs. Would that be a better reaction? ”
              See, you go straight to the “it’s all the women’s fault” bullshit when I didn’t say that at all. Incase you didn’t notice, what makes me want to keep quiet are the reactions of some women who will literally try demonize me over it, others have thanked me for opening up but the demonizations still make me feel more guarded about it. This plays more importance in a relationship if the partner is one of those men or women that demonize it, it will shame the other partner and they will keep quiet. At least on here other women are thanking me and giving me indication that there is some point to talking about it.
              “You have also misread comments, misunderstood, generalized and stated facts without any evidence and demonized me. ”
              Point it out and I’ll try to change my tune, which I am doing. You have to realize that I am not talking universally about men, and often I am only talking about individual men, which is why I am surprised when you think I am talking about most or all men and when you say “it’s all women’s fault” stuff I truly wonder if you have understood me or if I am completely shit at communicating my point. I am trying desperately here to explain it, but it’s very difficult because attraction is extremely difficult to explain. There are so many variables at play!

              “I also find it difficult that you are telling me that I shouldn’t judge men but you have been very vocal about the ways men judge women. Such as your judgement of me about me being the reason you don’t want to be open about porn. Or the millions of other judgements you’ve made of me. Or the judgements men make when they begin numbering women’s looks by the quality of her face and body according to him. Those are all judgments! It appears to me that you think your judgements are okay to make but mine aren’t. Men don’t want to be judged for their porn use but they are judging and cataloging women by their bodies through porn. That’s not fair.”
              Ok I’ll reword it, try not to judge men negatively from what you think they want from porn, try listen what they want instead of telling us. I didn’t say don’t judge men fullstop. I’m saying find out what men want, then judge from that. I’ve already said I don’t like judging women based on numbers, I don’t like when people call others a 6 or a 10, I used numbers to try say what an individual persons attraction is like. We all feel varying levels of attraction for others, the difference is when you call them a 6 and others do it you’re labeling their worth based on their looks alone. What I am saying is pretty much trying to describe the arousal state in numerical form, like an engine with it’s RPM, trying to say that solely relying on physical attraction alone only gets that engine to lets say 1000rpm, yet add in mental attraction, love, etc and you have that engine redlining at 8000. Not that the woman herself is a 200!

              “I’ve suggested this before, but why don’t you and Archy just argue this offline? It is obviously very personal to both of you and the same arguments come up again and again here on the threads. I’m not sure that there is a reconciliation possible without personal communication.”
              I don’t think there is a reconciliation possible, so I’m gonna try remove myself from the convo. We’re trying to explain extremely complex systems to each other and it’s probably impossible to explain.

            • “In this culture, if a woman is considered too fat, old, ugly or unattractive to get a guy, tough, she has to deal with it. Men should have to do the same, and they did perfectly fine for centuries without pornography.”
              Number 1 selling book in the UK was a porn novel for women. Your point is pretty null n voided considering how much fantasy material exists for women and considering how many women now look at porn. Those “fat, old, ugly women” can also buy vibrators, and sex toys that give more pleasure than male based ones I’d say, should they NOT be allowed to buy them? Show women be banned from looking at porn?

              And speaking as a fat man, why do you think I look at porn? Fat women are just as capable of finding material for masturbation as I am, hell they can use a vibrator whilst I have to use my hand.

              Do you even know any fat men n what they go through or do you just assume women get it worse?

            • women do what we think will make men love us Archy.

            • “women do what we think will make men love us Archy.”
              Some do, and some men do the same. I know of many men that tirelessly devote themselves to their partner. You do realize men do a lot to try get women to love them, just as women do the same? We’re not actually all that different?

            • Nobody likes bad sex, but I don’t think bad sex is unique to this era. I have mixed feelings about porn, as I’ve said in earlier comments. However, I started haing sex before the Internet age (I’m 45) and there was bad sex and selfish lovers back then too. We used to complain about “wham bam thank you ma’am” sex. Now maybe the complaints are about overly athletic, disconnected, porn-y sex. But the underlying issues are the same. I’ve learned over the years that, yes, some guys are just selfish in bed. But most guys desperately want to please their partner, they just don’t know how. The solution to the first kind of person is to dump him. The solution to the second kind of person is to teach him what you like.

              Also, we can argue all we like about male social and economic power but at the end of the day, women still have the power to say “no.” If you don’t like rough anal or having a dick shoved down your throat, then don’t do it! If a guy cares about you, he will work with you to have sex that pleases both of you. Yes it’s important to be “good giving and game” but that doesn’t include doing things you really hate, in my book. There are MILLIONS of decent guys out there who would never dream of forcing a woman to engage in sexual activities she doesn’t like. Seriously. Most guys I’ve had sex with wanted to please me more than anything.

            • It would make me feel really happy if a man would stop using pornography for me. I feel traumatized by it. I can’t do it, I’ve tried to force myself to watch it before at very low periods in my life, and it just makes me wish I was dead. I don’t think men understand how forbidden a woman is from admitting that she hates pornography nowadays, but I hate it, and it is not the same for women as for men. Most men in porn or hideous and what’s eroticized for women is being weak and passive and fucked and pathetic–for men, it’s being hard and strong and tough. I don’t think men would love it the way they do if they had to see themselves that way, having dick shoved in their mouth by strangers and their face all twisted out of shape. You don’t see men made to look weak and pathetic. I hate the woman’s role in it. I feel like I’m so different from other women, if there are really men who want to please me during sex, why do men treat me like I’m some horrible monster for just asking him to stop using porn? It would feel like the greatest gift in the world to me, I can’t even explain what it would mean for me. I’m a survivor of sex abuse that involved porn and I just can’t handle it, and I don’t know why men get so angry at that, that I have a special need. I don’t need a guy to be rich or perfect or any of that–just please, don’t use pornography, I hate it, it makes me feel terrible about being female. Why is that such a terrible thing to want, for a man to stop using porn? I don’t want to learn to like it rough–ever. I hate sucking dick, I hate anal sex, and I DO want sex to be about my pleasure. I’m tired of serving men. Pornography just makes me feel hopeless inside, and I feel like it makes men more disconnected than they ever were, you don’t know what it’s like for young women. None of these men on here care. And for every study they cite that porn reduces sexual assault (not for the women in it it doesn’t, that’s for sure!) I could site studies that say the exact opposite. After Deep Throat, instances of throat rape increased dramatically. I just can’t deal with all this anymore, it’s a waste of time. These men don’t care and sometimes I feel like no men care, and it just makes me feel too hopeless for words.

            • ” you don’t know what it’s like for young women. ”

              Some women also like porn. I think some people see what they want to see. For some porn is hopelesly antiwoman and yet there women who watch also porn. So IMO its a emotive problem, not rational.

              “None of these men on here care.”

              Not true, lots of guys here care and the majority if not all guys, want to make the woman happy. Just because we dont agree, doesent mean we dont care.

            • Who says we don’t care? We just don’t agree with your view of what porn is. I’m sorry you went through something so traumatic but do you really expect us to give it up because sometimes bad shit happens? If someone was abused during a movie at the cinema, would you expect movies to be banned?

              You don’t have to date a person who looks at porn, but don’t expect everyone else to follow your worldview because of your past and what you see as a medium that is only ever bad. There is good in that medium…

            • Really, you’ve always had the power to say no? Not every woman is as lucky as you.

            • Unless you are in an abusive relationship where your life is in danger, you always have the power to say no. And even if your life is in danger, there are resources to help. But, I assume we are not talking about those kind of extreme circumstances. You seem to be referring to ordinary male-female power dynamics where you feel women are being pressured into sexual activities they don’t like because of the influence of porn. I believe most women have the power to say “no” to relationships, and to say “no” within relationships. Maybe in some cases a woman feels her options aren’t good (being alone, losing a man’s financial support, or whatever) but they are still options. I consider myself a feminist but I do not believe women should be viewed as helpless victims.

    • “What if my problem with your sexual use of women via porn stems not from the fact that I assume it makes you hate all women, but from the fundamental dynamic of men being able to buy sexual access to women in the first place, and from the fact that many, many (I would even say the majority of) women in the sex industry are there because they were victims of child sex abuse, they were taken advantage of by pornographers when they were young and naive and thought being in porn would be totally different, they get addicted to drugs, etc. ”

      I hear the victims of sexual abuse line a lot but quite frankly it sounds like you don’t afford these women their own agency? Does CSA make it impossible for women to make informed decisions for themselves? Yes it’s evil for anyone to take advantage of people but do you think that happens always? Or do these women actively choose this career for whatever reason? Maybe I am naive but I trust the women to make their own choices.

      • When I buy porn I don’t buy “sexual access” to them. I buy their pictures. Which are infinitely inferior to access to a real woman who’s that enthusiastic about sex.

        Nevertheless, I suppose I buy those pictures because a picture better than nothing and is sometimes preferable to a woman who’s not willing and enthusiastic about sex. I think the gripe has something to do with men being able to sidestep women’s ability to dictate men’s access to sex–even if that access is just a marginally better masturbation experience.

        If women want men to lay off the porn, be better in bed. More willing, more enthusiastic, more fun.

      • stephaniecleveland says:

        Archy, I think sometimes abuse survivors choose situations that replicate the abuse. Even if a pattern is devastating to you and you’d like something better, if it’s all you really know, sometimes you keep on reproducing it–and that’s particularly true for women, most of whom are literally obsessed with trying not to displease men. One of my first responses to abuse was to go through a 2 year period of severe anorexia. I definitely chose to starve myself–my food intake was something I had control over, and in a sick way, that made me feel powerful. But I’m glad people who cared about me decided to deny me my agency and get me out of that pattern, even though, again, it was something I’d actively chosen. I think many men are naive about what brings women in pornography in front of the camera, and what happens to them afterwards. I remember an interview with a john I read once, where he was asked about the women he used, “Do you ever think about that fact that she’s a real human being?” to which he responded, “Yeah, but you have to push that thought out of your mind, otherwise, you can’t do it.” Porn is nothing but prostitution on film, and honestly, I’d rather a guy I was with cheat on me with a real woman than use it–at least in that case he’d have to interact with her as a real human being in order to get sex from her or to get to see sex done to her. Pornography doesn’t set up a fair balance between women and men, and in order to justify using it, men will resort to all sorts of sexist arguments about how women are really running the show, should have been better in bed, deserved to have their partner use porn because they weren’t pleasing enough in some way…it’s just misogyny, all that, and I think it proves that porn use does impact men’s view of women and men’s behavior (we accept that commercials influence people’s choices and desires for god’s sake! How could pornography not do the same?). Okay, now I’m really done.

        • Do you ever watch porn? I watch pretty much only amateur content by couples who make their own porn, the pleasure is usually equally distributed, they have oral with each other and have sex, or just oral together, etc. I also watch solo “webcam” live shows by women who do it as a source of income. I’ve also mutually masturbated with a friend on our webcams. Do you expect me to believe the majority of those people were abused and are acting it out?

          I can understand your concern for pro porn, I share the same concerns over the working conditions, but do you include amateur porn in it?

    • Stephanie and Erin, I respect your opinions but that’s all they are. They are no more valid than those who totally disagree with you. And, your arguments are unlikely to change many minds on this subject and convince men to stop viewing porn anymore than it will stop women from using phallic sex toys.

      • I don’t think anything I have to say will stop men from looking at porn Eric. Porn is here to stay. Men win, don’t worry. But I am not going to pretend I think it’s great and positive for men or women and our relationships.

        The fact is porn doesn’t treat men like it treats women. So I think it’s easier for men to accept because it centers around male fantasy first.

        • And what are us women suppose to do? We are suppose to accept that men want all these other visuals of other women but we are suppose to also be totally confident and vulnerable with our men even in the face of him routinally seeking out material that is all about enjoying the sexuality of other women on a regular basis. We are suppose to remain unaffected by his porn use even as he is affected by it.

          I am not suppose to question what this means and what this says or not feel confused about what that means for my place in his life. I’m not suppose to question what he is thinking. I guess I am suppose to just think that he is wonderful no matter what and just accept that 18 year olds in porn with implants are always going to beat me out on some level. Oh but that’s right..i must remain confident and be willing to be vulnerable with him even as he strikes right at the heart of things that are very vulnerable for a lot of women.

    • level playing field says:

      Porn doesn’t give men an unfair advantage with regard to sex. It helps level the playing field, evening out the effect of testosterone, or whatever other biological factors give (most) men a relatively higher sex drive than their partners.

      But, go on rambling about sex needing to be more egalitarian and less capitalistic. In most relationships, the man is paid in scrip and their partner runs the company store.

  24. Women are suppose to be understanding and all smiles that men just seem to need porn no matter what the porn is doing to depict female bodies or sexuality.
    If you think that is what Archy and I are trying to say then yes, you are not listening to us.

    It’s apparently women’s fault that big penises exist in porn, although previously Danny admit that porn is mainly made for men, it’s women’s fault that they are debased in porn and apparently it’s women’s fault that men are lonely. What’s a poor man to do I guess right?
    Funny. After saying that porn is made mainly for men when it came to “fault” I think I said, “I didn’t say it was there fault but if you want to talk about what has influence then yes I would say that women are adding to that influence.” And I don’t recall ever saying that women were at fault for men being lonely. I have said that that loneliness is probably a source of why men embrace unhealthy sexual ideas about women. But I don’t think I said it was women’s fault.

    Actually I would like for those “poor men” to have options but I don’t want it to come at the cost of the idea that women should be obligated to have sex with said lonely guys in order to keep them from embracing dangerous ideas about sex and women.

    You say that we think you aren’t listening to us and then you say stuff like this.

    I can’t speak for Archy but I wouldn’t blame him for seeing your words as portrayal of you not listening.

    • I agree 100%. Words are being twisted or misunderstood. I’ve never said all porn was good for instance, or that all porn was egalitarian, I dunno where she came up with that?

      No one NEEDS porn but it can be very beneficial to a person, it can also be very negative to another. No one needs games or other forms of entertainment, nor art, nor english, nor science, nor a car, etc. They are desires. The only thing we need is intimacy, sex, love, in order to have happiness and the lack of those can be quite detrimental to one’s mental health. I know full well as I spent the majority of a decade alone 95% of the time, barely saw friends let alone had lovers, it’s soul crushing that loneliness and porn helped ease it.

      • I think part of what Erin is getting at is that men get REALLY defensive about their porn. Say, a wife knows her husband has been watching porn that day featuring ‘teens.’ She naturally feels inadequate and sad. This doesn’t make her a man-hating feme-nazi or someone trying to control your every move. She just doesn’t feel good enough. Is that so wrong? Later that night, he wants to have sex. The sex is unenjoyable because the whole time she’s wondering if he’s thinking of his teens. Why isn’t she good enough? Why isn’t there a pill to make her stay 22 forever? Maybe she’s been busy with work and kids and can’t always be at his beck and call for sex, wearing full makeup, spending the rest of the time at the gym, and knowing and being comfortable with every position and sex act. And then, you hear the same guys who watch porn disrespecting women who do it. They’d never want THEIR partner to be in porn. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. Sometimes, if a woman dares to say these things, she’s pounced upon like she’s some crazy, controlling prude. Women aren’t made of steel. I know, suck it up. But is it that terrible to have some empathy? Archy and Danny–this is not directed towards you, as you both do have empathy and explain yourselves really well. Archy, I’m really glad that porn is there to have helped you through your loneliness. I can completely understand how that helps elevate your mood.

        • That sums it up Aya. It seems that when it comes to porn, women are expected to be made of steel. I like that explanation. We aren’t suppose to have any feelings toward it. We aren’t suppose to be bothered by reenforced messages about our beauty or youth or lack of. We aren’t suppose to be bothered by the idea that men find us and our sexuality less exciting as we get older. We are suppose to be these uber confident super human beings that don’t let anything affect us. Yet we need to be REALLY sensitive and understanding about why he needs porn and why he needs porn of 18 year olds or all kinds of women. When you talk to him about the topic, men are always saying, “be sensitive and gentle”. Yet when women get talked to about this subject it’s more like “suck it up, men like porn, it’s natural, men like 22 year olds and if you aren’t 22 year old anymore that’s your problem.” There is such a lack of really relating to one another here.

          • “We aren’t suppose to be bothered by the idea that men find us and our sexuality less exciting as we get older. ”
            Depends on the man though, I see quite a lot of comments about men enjoying sex with 30+ year old women who’s are reaching their sexual peak. I’ve had friends around 25 who told me they were with 35+ year old women, the women to them weren’t as attractive physically as younger women but they were cougars in bed and their sexuality was very attractive.

            I think life itself with many people getting bogged down by kids, housework, etc that get in the way of romance is having an effect of keeping a stereotype of older peoples sexuality being less thrilling as younger, this could be an issue for couples to look into.

            “Yet we need to be REALLY sensitive and understanding about why he needs porn and why he needs porn of 18 year olds or all kinds of women. When you talk to him about the topic, men are always saying, “be sensitive and gentle”. Yet when women get talked to about this subject it’s more like “suck it up, men like porn, it’s natural, men like 22 year olds and if you aren’t 22 year old anymore that’s your problem.” There is such a lack of really relating to one another here.”
            What I see are men saying they all like different things, not to sweep them up into a generalization and demonize them, which is what many of the men taking issue with your comments are trying to say. When we men open up we cop quite a bit of hate at times, it’s not easy to speak about hence why we want sensitivity. Just the fact I look at porn makes some women assume that because the majority of porn THEY see is degrading, it means that I am jerking off to women being slapped around, talked down to, etc. Then we get told what we are actually thinking, literally women including yourself have told us we must be thinking this, like this in a woman, etc when we say otherwise yet we are being ignored.

            I’m sure some men will tell you to suck it up, but I’m not telling you to do that. It’s up to you and your partner to work out what is acceptable for your relationship. I am trying to suggest that for some men, such as men like me, what we look at and what we want aren’t the same and comparing yourself to the porn I look at is a bad idea. Is it natural to like porn? Probably, seems a hell of a lot of men n women like it, doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for every relationship though. You bring up good points about the degrading aspects of the pro industry, or usage in relationships where one objects to it. I want you to keep speaking up about it, but I also want you to listen as I am listening to you, I’ll try my best to hear you out and hopefully you do the same.

            What’s making us defensive I think is there seems to be this hyperfocus on how bad porn can be, but not much focus on how it can be good. We see the good side, I’m not sure you can see the good side, I feel you see it as something that has too much bad stuff and not worth saving. When men are saying they are feeling demonized by someones comment, they need to understand why that might be. Just as we men need to understand why you feel demonized as a prude, which I’m guessing is what you feel at the moment, feeling like people are telling you to shutup about your feelings? What I feel like is many women ask us about porn, ignore the good parts, focus on the bad or conflate all of us as supporting this terrible industry that does horrible shit to women and making us out to be demons even if they don’t realize.

            • “Depends on the man though, I see quite a lot of comments about men enjoying sex with 30+ year old women who’s are reaching their sexual peak. I’ve had friends around 25 who told me they were with 35+ year old women, the women to them weren’t as attractive physically as younger women but they were cougars in bed and their sexuality was very attractive.”

              Do you and other men consider 30 old Archy? To the point that it’s suppose to be a compliment that men can even or “still” enjoy sex with 30+ year old women? I guess I don’t see how your comments are all that positive to women.

              I also think talking about 25 year old guys having sex with older women isn’t so much a testament to older women’s attractiveness as it is these guys just wanting to have sex and new experience with anyone. I doubt these younger guys would seriously consider having relationships with these older women. I also dislike cataloging women and calling them “cougars”. I don’t think this is a very sex positive term to be honest. Why does every woman that sleeps with an older guy have to be a cougar?

              “What I see are men saying they all like different things, not to sweep them up into a generalization and demonize them, which is what many of the men taking issue with your comments are trying to say. “

              Men like different things on a much smaller scale compared to what is vastly popular. I think you are demonizing women and the issues they can struggle with that are real realities for them on back of accusing them of being demonizing toward men. The reality is that here are A LOT of men out there that are looking at mainly young women in porn. That is the biggest chunk of women out there. But I guess because a small segment of “older woman porn” exists , which is actually sometimes simply 25 year olds that are given MILF status because of their advanced years in the porn business, is suppose to make women feel what…good? Like men really do like us ?

              “When we men open up we cop quite a bit of hate at times, it’s not easy to speak about hence why we want sensitivity.”

              I get that. I don’t want to deny men sensitivity. I would just like to see men offer some sensitivity in return. Rarely are men given the advice to be sensitive to women about these things. It’s always about women having to learn to understand how much her man needs to see so much variety in other women and sometimes needs to see younger women with perfect bodies. It’s about women having to be sensitive to him and understanding him and I simply don’t see most men trying to understand or be sensitive in return. It usually comes down to how men simply need porn and women need to understand that.

              I have read forums where guys that heavily used porn talk about their experiences of not looking at porn anymore. They talked about how normal women started to excited them again. And not just really “hot” girls on the street. How they could be turned on by a hard nipple poking through a shirt or something very simple. They talked about how it was like when they were young teenagers again because they were excited by simple unrestricted things. Yet when they used porn, they were much more critical of women and found less women attractive. Heck, they could see a woman in public and remain completely unaffected even if she was attractive. I wonder how many men are walking around in that kind of state. Numb to real women because they have a lot of time and access to material that caters to their fancies. I suspect it’s more men then not. I suspect it’s more men then men would ever want to admit. I bet if all the guys here stopped looking at porn for a couple weeks, they would see their sexuality change. They would respond to things different and discover their sexuality even more so then repeat porn use. Are any men up to that challenge? Going without porn for several weeks and seeking how it affects them? Is it even possible anymore for men to go without porn?

              “Just the fact I look at porn makes some women assume that because the majority of porn THEY see is degrading, it means that I am jerking off to women being slapped around, talked down to, etc. “

              I don’t think demeaning porn is just about women being slapped around and talked down to. The way women are stereotypes and catagorized is pretty demeaning to me as well.

              I hope you aren’t referring to me though. I don’t really care what you specifically look at. I talk about this topic in general terms because I see general themes in men’s behaviors and attitudes toward women and toward porn. I also suspect we have a different idea about what is degrading and what is truly egalitarian. You use amateur porn a lot as a way to say that it’s a segment of the industry that is really positive and wonderful. I don’t think something being amateur porn means it’s necessarily positive, healthy or egalitarian. Heck, you don’t even know if both parties KNOW that that video is even being posted. We don’t know if this couple decided to make a video for themselves then one or the other posted it. I bet there are TONS of videos posted that appear amateur that a man took and posted without his partners consent. This doesn’t even touch on the fact that it being amateur doesn’t mean the content is completely fair and wonderful and positive.

              “Then we get told what we are actually thinking, literally women including yourself have told us we must be thinking this, like this in a woman, etc when we say otherwise yet we are being ignored.”

              It’s not about telling you what you are thinking. It’s about women also having valid opinions and voices and having had valid experiences with men that represent their views.

              “I’m sure some men will tell you to suck it up, but I’m not telling you to do that. It’s up to you and your partner to work out what is acceptable for your relationship.”

              You seem to want me to think porn is wonderful because *you* think amateur porn is.

              “I am trying to suggest that for some men, such as men like me, what we look at and what we want aren’t the same and comparing yourself to the porn I look at is a bad idea. Is it natural to like porn? Probably, seems a hell of a lot of men n women like it, doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for every relationship though.”

              And isn’t it natural to look at what a medium specifically designed for male fantasy and not gather information about what men like and who men want women to be? Is it natural for some women to say “gee, I don’t know if I like this” ? Or How do I fit into this? Or, “well gosh, I’m not 22 anymore but he sure does like 22 year olds I’m not even sure if I want him to see my body.” Isn’t it natural to compare? YES YES YES. Lots of things are “natural”.

              Stop expecting women to be super human beings that don’t take information away from what men show they like. Stop demanding women be above such things while men enjoy them.

              “You bring up good points about the degrading aspects of the pro industry, or usage in relationships where one objects to it. I want you to keep speaking up about it, but I also want you to listen as I am listening to you, I’ll try my best to hear you out and hopefully you do the same.”

              Will that be before or after you tell me how much I hate men.

              “What’s making us defensive I think is there seems to be this hyperfocus on how bad porn can be, but not much focus on how it can be good. “

              It’s not a hyperfocus for me about how awful porn is toward women. Fine. It’s a hyperfocus for you. That doesn’t mean that’s true for me. And you are not the only one that feels defensive. Especially when I try to be very honest about my own take here and I get labeled six ways till Sunday for it and told that my thoughts and who I am is hateful….or “boarderline” hateful to get around actually calling me hateful.

              “We see the good side, I’m not sure you can see the good side, I feel you see it as something that has too much bad stuff and not worth saving. “

              I see a world where porn has become way too important in men’s lives. I see a world where it’s becoming increasingly important to women too. I see the way sexuality has changed for that. I don’t think any of this is good.

              People seem to want the answer to be, “more porn”. I think that’s the last thing we need. Is porn making people happier? Maybe for a few short moments but in the grand scheme of things, I think it just messes with human pysche.

              No one wants to be honest about how much porn has become a regular part of life and some people seem to be advocating for even more porn. It’s surreal. Do we need more porn? Are men so bored with real women that sometimes they need to escape toward fantasy women? Is a man’s peeking at some off beat porn really suppose to make women feel empowered?

              Porn use to be this once-in-awhile thing where you had to actually leave your home to get it. That’s not the way people are interacting with porn anymore and if you don’t think that’s affecting human sexuality then I don’t think you are being realistic.

              “When men are saying they are feeling demonized by someones comment, they need to understand why that might be. Just as we men need to understand why you feel demonized as a prude, which I’m guessing is what you feel at the moment, feeling like people are telling you to shutup about your feelings?”

              I don’t feel demonized as a prude. I have said nothing about my personal sexuality here. I am a very sexual person but I don’t feel the need to advertise that. I do feel demonized as some kind of man hater especially by you.

              “What I feel like is many women ask us about porn, ignore the good parts, focus on the bad or conflate all of us as supporting this terrible industry that does horrible shit to women and making us out to be demons even if they don’t realize.”

              We don’t see the “good parts” the same way.

            • “Do you and other men consider 30 old Archy? To the point that it’s suppose to be a compliment that men can even or “still” enjoy sex with 30+ year old women? I guess I don’t see how your comments are all that positive to women.”
              No, a different age bracket, I go by decades usually. 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, women in 30’s are often married with kids or have at least had 5+ more years of life experience than a 25 year old. What I consider “old” is 50+ which is the age my attraction drops off currently. The reason I said it is because I’m trying to say some men do find older women attractive, even when younger. Not every male is the same, I’m pretty sure I had friends who were around 22 and were sleeping with 35+ year old women, might have been 40+ but I can’t quite remember, I know it was at least a decade or more.

              “Why does every woman that sleeps with an older guy have to be a cougar?”
              You mean man that sleeps with older woman? I dunno why they call them cougars, I think it’s mainly for women old enough to be their mother though and the young guys are called toy boys. I think most people prefer to date their own age, some men also date younger, and some women date older men too.

              “Men like different things on a much smaller scale compared to what is vastly popular. I think you are demonizing women and the issues they can struggle with that are real realities for them on back of accusing them of being demonizing toward men”
              I’m not saying you’re demonizing men about the legitimate issues, it’s specifically about broad sweeping generalizations you make whislt simultaneously not listening to not just me, but Danny, Nick, and a few others, and then also womansplaining us. Other women have brought up issues and guess what, I haven’t said they were demonizing, why do you think that is? Because they didn’t do what you have been doing.

              “I get that. I don’t want to deny men sensitivity. I would just like to see men offer some sensitivity in return. Rarely are men given the advice to be sensitive to women about these things. It’s always about women having to learn to understand how much her man needs to see so much variety in other women and sometimes needs to see younger women with perfect bodies. It’s about women having to be sensitive to him and understanding him and I simply don’t see most men trying to understand or be sensitive in return. It usually comes down to how men simply need porn and women need to understand that. ”

              Well I hope you realize I am trying to be as sensitive as possible, quite a few others seem to be as well though I see one or two that are saying “woman up” basically which I don’t agree with.

              “I wonder how many men are walking around in that kind of state. Numb to real women because they have a lot of time and access to material that caters to their fancies. I suspect it’s more men then not.”
              Are these guys masturbating still without porn? I look at porn heavily and still get heavily turned on by nipples poking through shirts, hell someone I like a lot recently wore a skirt and it was extremely distracting. Stopping masturbation for a few days can make me get an initial hornyness increase, and the first orgasm after a few days feels better but it’s unrelated to porn usage for me.

              I’ve been without porn for a few weeks, I noticed no real difference. Some men will be like me and not have much difference, others will have a big difference, some men are addicted, others are not. I haven’t really looked at porn in a week or 2, although I have been doing cam2cam with someone if that counts. Before that I was lookign at porn once a day, but that cam2cam friend was still extremely attractive to me, just as many women offline are. I can go without porn, it’s just boring without it when I am single. I still masturbate without porn too at times, and it’s alright, just not really as thrilling. I find women to be beautiful and sexy, I find watching sex to be sexy, it’s just additional visual stimulation to me, although the cam2cam stuff is a whole different story, it’s a mutual thing, fun, and easily beats porn. It’s currently the closest I get to typical intimacy with another person.

              “Is it even possible anymore for men to go without porn?”
              Sure, but unless they have a partner it gets a bit boring. Go without tv, or books, or whatever entertains you for a week, it’s a bit like that. I often go a few days without porn though, depends how horny I am and my desire to destress (I use orgasms to help lower my anxiety from my anxiety disorder down as they are very effective).

              “I hope you aren’t referring to me though. I don’t really care what you specifically look at.”
              No, this one is for the extreme anti-porn crusaders.

              “I don’t think something being amateur porn means it’s necessarily positive, healthy or egalitarian. Heck, you don’t even know if both parties KNOW that that video is even being posted. We don’t know if this couple decided to make a video for themselves then one or the other posted it. I bet there are TONS of videos posted that appear amateur that a man took and posted without his partners consent.”
              That is one fear I have of the content but I try to ensure it is just the typical voyeuristic couple? There are online cam sites where couples have sex with people watching where that seems to be fully consenting. There are sites where the couple can also upload their content to. It’s not neccessarily positive, but it’s the best chance and it’s where I see the majority of egalitarian content. I don’t mean to imply ALL amateur stuff is egalitarian, but I do believe a large portion originates that way. Even videos that are stolen, the original video itself for the couple can be egalitarian but then it changes to degrading them both by being posted. If I send my partner a pic of my dick, it’s porn, if we both fuck on our camera, it can be egalitarian, ethical, etc. I think the majority of porn being produced right now though is probably sexting, stuff that isn’t meant for public consumption, I think most of that is egalitarian too so porn itself isn’t neccessarily bad, porn can have a lot of good but it depends on what is done with it and how it is produced.

              “You seem to want me to think porn is wonderful because *you* think amateur porn is. ”
              I don’t want you to think porn is wonderful, I want you to see that SOME porn can be wonderful, but it also depends on who you are. If you don’t like porn then you probably won’t see it as wonderful, I just hope you can at least see that SOME porn IS good to some people. That’s all I’ve ever wanted to hear, to see good porn acknowledged and not thrown out with the bathwater.

              “And isn’t it natural to look at what a medium specifically designed for male fantasy and not gather information about what men like and who men want women to be?”
              To a certain extent, fantasy isn’t a 100% complete picture on reality. You’re better off looking at data from online dating, or seeing who men approach, have crushes on, date, marry etc and comparing to that. What do you do if your man likes looking at gay porn but isn’t actually gay? Do women who like rape fantasies want to date rapists? See how fantasy isn’t 100% perfect to compare to?

              “Will that be before or after you tell me how much I hate men.”
              When did I say you hate men?

              “It’s not a hyperfocus for me about how awful porn is toward women. Fine. It’s a hyperfocus for you. That doesn’t mean that’s true for me. And you are not the only one that feels defensive. Especially when I try to be very honest about my own take here and I get labeled six ways till Sunday for it and told that my thoughts and who I am is hateful….or “boarderline” hateful to get around actually calling me hateful. ”
              You’re not the only one I am talking about, you’re not the center of my universe on the GMP. I’ve told you time n time again why you’re getting labelled badly and it’s got nothing to do with you trying to give your honest feelings, it’s the womansplaining, asking us what we like, then ignoring what we say that is ruffling the feathers. It’s the generalizations that aren’t just you stating opinion, but you appear to be stating them as fact. Your communication style is stirring up the men, ask yourself why.

              “I see a world where porn has become way too important in men’s lives. I see a world where it’s becoming increasingly important to women too. I see the way sexuality has changed for that. I don’t think any of this is good. ”
              Nothing in porn is good? Not a single thing? Or do you simply mean just the over-reliance on porn?

              “No one wants to be honest about how much porn has become a regular part of life and some people seem to be advocating for even more porn. It’s surreal. Do we need more porn? Are men so bored with real women that sometimes they need to escape toward fantasy women? Is a man’s peeking at some off beat porn really suppose to make women feel empowered? ”
              A lot of guys here are being honest about it, I’m being honest about it. There you go again generalizing and ignoring us, and you wonder why we get annoyed. I advocate for more GOOD porn, less bad porn. Are men bored with real women? Some maybe, some aren’t. Do you not grasp that a lot of men find it difficult to find a partner and thus use porn as a way to fill in the lonliness? Some men use it for this reason, some men use it in relationships as additional stimulus like a vibrator, some use it because they’re in sexless relationships, some use it because they’re addicted, some use it instead of their partners cuz they’re assholes. And no women aren’t meant to feel empowered by men looking at bad porn (if that is what you meant?).

              “We don’t see the “good parts” the same way.”
              Do you see ANY good parts? even a single thing?

              “I do feel demonized as some kind of man hater especially by you. ”
              I don’t think you’re a man-hater. Your generalizations and womansplaining are annoying as hell, but it’s probably your communication style, I’m not quite sure exactly what you believe anymore but I don’t think you are someone that hates men. You’ve had multiple people tell you that your comments come across as dismissing us, demonizing us, telling us what we think, I’ve pointed this out numerous times yet you still haven’t acknowledged it. I don’t think you’re debating in good faith, and it sounds like you’re either misunderstanding me, or playing foul thinking I am trying to demonize you as a man hater when all I have been trying to do is point out how you’re coming across badly. Believe it or not I think you have some good stuff to say but not one but 3-5 guys seem to have issue with what you’re saying, it’s time to open your eyes Erin and figure out why you are sounding that way. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person, or a man hater, it just means you need to pay more attention to what these guys and I are saying when we talk to you and try figure out how to say your opinion without sounding like you’re telling us what men think. Currently it’s patronizing, and I find it sad because it’s making it difficult to have a decent conversation. There is a reason Danny said this:
              “Archy and Danny–this is not directed towards you, as you both do have empathy and explain yourselves really well. Archy, I’m really glad that porn is there to have helped you through your loneliness. I can completely understand how that helps elevate your mood.
              Try telling that to Erin.”

        • Archy and Danny–this is not directed towards you, as you both do have empathy and explain yourselves really well. Archy, I’m really glad that porn is there to have helped you through your loneliness. I can completely understand how that helps elevate your mood.
          Try telling that to Erin.

        • One thing I could say, I dunno how this will be taken, but for purely visual alone stimulation, often it takes a far more beautiful woman to turn me on, then it does face to face. Porn does have that disconnected feeling and so I am relying pretty much on physical looks alone whereas offline there are other things going on, even just the fact that it’s reality, the bonding chemicals etc that actually make women more attractive. Trying to get a clue of what I like from porn isn’t going to work much, at best you may see what one of my attraction mechanisms likes but what about the rest? It’s fantasy, and in fantasy why not look at the best of the best, it doesn’t compare to having a real life woman next to you.

          I am exaggerating a bit here as the porn stars I look at aren’t actually 10’s, I dunno how you’d number them but they range from attractive to supermodel, but what I’m trying to say is there are other things at play offline that you don’t get in porn. You will not be the most physically attractive person ever to exist, your body will change, that’s life and most men know this. Thing is the only attractive thing going for the porn stars to the individual guy is mainly their looks, it’s all the guy can really get from a video, maybe a bit of attraction to voice or mannerisms, bit of personality but absolutely nothing compared to a person next to you.

          We aren’t all supermodels, you will not be a supermodel most likely, guys might like looking at supermodels in porn but seriously? Do you think most of us are really that shallow to think you aren’t beautiful if we’re dating you? The woman I loved was fairly decent in looks but when I fell in love with her, EVERYONE else became uglier, she was my 10, my supermodel, because not all of a man’s attraction is based off his visual stimulation system. I would choose her every time to Heidi Klum, how do you quantify that feeling I get when I thought of her? What I fantasize and what I really want are 2 different things at times, I like to fantasize sometimes about being James Bond, a super hero, or some form of hero and having one or more in bed with me but I also fantasize about being in a relationship with a gf I love. Only one of those I actually want, the relationship, although superhero might be ok except my love would always be at risk from my enemies of course which would fucking suck.

          The guys looking at teens or early 20’s? I dunno how to explain it, they’re often the most beautiful women I see (there are older women I do find beautiful), in porn I am more attracted to my age and + or – a decade or so, similar to real life. I find the women around the 20 – 25 to probably be the most attractive physically, but personality wise I prefer 25+. Porn is pretty much solely physical attraction, so ladies you may be comparing yourself to people who can never compete with you. How many attractions are there? There is physical, personality, that undefinable one that causes butterflies, thinking of them all day, the spark, women in porn can be one of those attractions but even then it still can’t compare to reality. I can see how it makes women question their own beauty especially as they get older, but I don’t think it means older women aren’t beautiful, just that younger women are probably more physically attractive. I have no idea if that is mostly because of society and expectations, or biology, or a mix of both, so I can’t really give a clue why, all I know is for me personally the 20’s seem the most attractive but I’m also in my 20’s. It may change in the next decade or when I get old enough to be their father, who knows. Either way I am still attracted to women my age and older even quite a lot, just that women around my age or younger are a bit more PHYSICALLY attractive to me, whereas women my age or older are more attractive to me in personality and life.

          Now some people use vibrators, should a man thing that his penis is not enough or is it simply extra stimulation? That’s the question here, yes porn has another woman but he’s not going to have any of the attachment he feels for you to her, it’s someone who simply triggers that visual stimulation, a beautiful body, or just the act of sex itself. It’s hard to get much more from porn than that I guess. Hell just seeing the vulva puts me into overdrive… A vibrator will trigger pleasure from your nerves, porn can trigger pleasure from that visual system. I haven’t watched porn whilst being with another women, I have seen porn at a different time and I didn’t think of that during sex with her. Porn earlier on in the night can get him arroused, get him off and he goes about his business. A romance novel, or porn, or 50 shades of grey, or a vibrator can do the same for a woman.

          Is it a fact of the guy/girl not being enough? I have no idea how to answer that, I think it comes down to the couple. For me personally I don’t particularly care if she looks at porn, long as she brings me some good sex after and not forgo sex with me to look at porn. If I’m away in town, or sick, or something, if I can’t please her then she can look at it if she wants. Would I care if she looked at it during sex? Dunno, depends if she focuses on the porn more than me. Would I feel like I am inadequate if she got out a vibrator? No, I view it as adding more pleasure. If she could only orgasm with porn or a vibrator, I would be worried then but I realize sexual dysfunction can make it hard to deal with. My experience of sex I had sexual dysfunction due to pills, i had to masturbate at the end to orgasm, it was frustrating and annoying as hell but I can understand that sometimes our bodies don’t obey like we want then too. I told her over n over that the pills did it, I didn’t want her feeling like she failed.

          I think it’s up to the individual couple to find their barriers, desires, likes, etc. If my partner didn’t want me looking at porn I probably wouldn’t, I can’t see myself looking at it unless we are in a sexless part of the relationship, but I’d be trying to fix that first.

          “Archy and Danny–this is not directed towards you, as you both do have empathy and explain yourselves really well.”
          I find it hard to open up about it, sometimes I feel like some shallow monster when I talk about porn as it’s mostly a physical thing. It’s hard to explain being only turned on physically, or the attraction of porn when many women don’t seem to get a similar feeling to the men. The women who do look at porn seem to fully understand it though and I think they realize it’s not as bad as other women see it, they don’t seem to think of it as cheating for instance or try to compare themselves to women in porn. It’s also hard to explain the desire to look at porn n masturbate, but as I am not in a relationship pretty much all of my knowledge comes from being single n lonely so I can only guess as to why married men for instance look at porn.

          “Archy, I’m really glad that porn is there to have helped you through your loneliness. I can completely understand how that helps elevate your mood.”
          Thank-you, I do like romance movies too as they trigger that happy lovey dovey feeling but that feeling usually leaves me feeling very vulnerable and lonely, more so than the porn, hence why I tend to avoid it. I LOVE being in the lovey dovey feeling, more so than the horny feeling, I get a bounce in my step and feel great. Combine the 2 and it’s extacy….

          • I think porn does cause a lot of insecurity forbecause because we have been taught since childhood that our looks are everything. If you grow up as an average or less attractive woman (as I did) or as you get older and realize you are no longer in that most desirable age bracket, it can be really hard on the self esteem. Also, being desired is a big turn on for me, so if I suspect that a man is not really attracted to my imperfect body or if he is thinking about younger, more attractive bodies while he’s with me, it’s going to kill my desire for sex with him. Maybe it’s irrational but sexuality is not rational. That’s why I can’t watch porn while haing sex, it is actually a major turn OFF for me. At the same time I recognize that men like porn and like looking at attractive women so I can’t stop them, I just don’t want to be reminded of it all the time.

            I guess one way to explain it would be what if you knew your girlfriend really liked guys with big penises and you are below average. She is quite open about her love of big penises and likes looking at pictures of big penises. But when you tell her feel insecure about it, she tells you “don’t worry, it’s just a fantasy, I lIke you for other reasons. I know you have a small pensis but I like you for your personality!”. That would probably be upsetting, wouldn’t it?

            This is where, as I think I said in an earlier comment, I think it is important sometimes not to be too open about one’s fantasies, simply out of consideration for the other person’s feelings. Porn is so prevalent now and so “out there,” it can feel like a constant blow to one’s self worth and value as a woman. Women know we are imperfect physically, especially if we aren’t 10’s or aren’t in the 20-25 age bracket, yet we are still sexual beings who want to be loved and desired.

            I think much of the appeal of “50 Shades of Grey” is not the kinky sex but simply that Christian is so incredibly smitten with the main character. There is an amusing review in a recent issue of the New Yorker which talks about 50 Shades in the context of Naomi Wolf’s new book about the vagina (which honestly sounds like quite a silly read). Naomi Wolf apparently describes how women (allegedly) need our men to worship the divine energy of our vaginas and the reviewer points out that’s essentially what Christian does in 50 Shades, interspersed with a little spanking and bondage. I read 50 Shades (it’s awful, BTW) and I think the reviewer is definitely onto something there.

            I won’t go so far as Naomi Wolf with regard to the Goddess in my pussy :-) but I think being the object of desire is important to many women’s sexual feelings, and porn undermines this which is why it feels upsetting to many (not all) women. I’m not being judgmental about men who like porn but just trying to explain the female reaction.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              I think all you say is true. I’ve often wondered how close I am to the “typical porn viewer.” I don’t watch it that often (once or twice a month), never while having sex, and the participants aren’t “models” in that they have average bodies where boobs don’t defy gravity and penises aren’t longer than my forearm.

              But I understand this link between desire and feeling sexually expressive, and I think many men want the same thing. When a sexual partner doesn’t express desire for you, it feels very much like they’re doing you a solid. “Thanks for fixing the dishwasher. Here, have some pussy; just let me know when you’re finished with it.” Sometimes perfunctory sex can relieve stress and tension, but most of the time it just leaves you a little dead inside.

            • “Also, being desired is a big turn on for me, so if I suspect that a man is not really attracted to my imperfect body or if he is thinking about younger, more attractive bodies while he’s with me, it’s going to kill my desire for sex with him.”
              I think something to realize is that the attraction he feels to younger women may only be a bit higher than that to older women, but it depends on the man. You can feel attraction level 1000 for your partner, level 200 for a young woman in porn, level 170 for an older woman. It’s hard to quantify though the attraction, especially for video or imagery alone which only relies on visual attraction mainly. The feelings of love, bonding etc can make an average girl much more beautiful to a man, or woman. A random person with a similar body to me for example might not be very attractive to my partner, but the bonding, love, etc can make me far more attractive and even more attractive than those with better physical looks. It’s like when I was in love, I watched the Miss Universe and thought my love was hotter, actually more physically beatiful especially as soon as I saw her face it brings this feeling of joy n happiness that the best supermodels can’t match. Her eyes especially became the most beautiful to me, her smile, her body, everything was miles ahead of anyone else.

              “At the same time I recognize that men like porn and like looking at attractive women so I can’t stop them, I just don’t want to be reminded of it all the time.”
              I can understand that. I think I’d only ever look at porn during sex if my partner wanted to watch it, but even then I feel it might be distracting. Maybe the odd glimpse here n there could add extra spice but I dunno…I think mirrors around the bed would be sexier, get to see my parter and I going at it from different angles.

              “I guess one way to explain it would be what if you knew your girlfriend really liked guys with big penises and you are below average. She is quite open about her love of big penises and likes looking at pictures of big penises. But when you tell her feel insecure about it, she tells you “don’t worry, it’s just a fantasy, I lIke you for other reasons. I know you have a small pensis but I like you for your personality!”. That would probably be upsetting, wouldn’t it? ”
              Probably but even then I’d have to accept it, but I’d also be wondering if she likes them for the look, or how it feels, is it just fantasy like how some women have rape fantasies, maybe she likes a big cock in theory/fantasy but in reality it hurts her, I think fantasies are so complex that I shouldn’t dwell on my partners fantasy as I know even my fantasies differ from reality at times. I like seeing 3somes, but I’m not sure I’d like to be in one for instance, and when I was in love the desire to even try one was very low, if non-existant. I dunno how that would go down as the way it looks is sexy but the feelings arising during it might make me jealous, or maybe my partner would be jealous, who knows, it’s tricky…I think if I knew I could get her off successfully, that she still found me attractive I would be able to ignore the whole big cock fetish. The only worry I would have is not being able to satisfy her but it doesn’t mean I couldn’t satisfy her.

              I feel insecure about my looks but if my partner wanted to watch porn which had good looking guys, I dunno if it’d bother me. I think it’d depend on if she is constantly looking at other men who are attractive, more so than me, and showing me that she wants someone else. If it’s more that she looks at me 90% of the time and has a quick look here n there at others I dunno if I’d care. It might actually be good, if she gets additional arousal, as long as she comes n uses it on me when we have sex. If I’m sick or away and she wants to masturbate to porn, go ahead, I dunno why but I don’t think I’d really care, I guess it’s disconnected, a feeling of just being fantasy and not a sign she wants to cheat to me. I don’t place my whole worth on my looks, I know my personality, etc to her would be beautiful and others can’t match that. I’m not realy worried about physical attraction to others, I’m more worried about mental attraction, if she starts to grow attached to someone else, or truly want to fuck someone else (not including a 3some I guess). I dunno how open I am as a partner though…

              “This is where, as I think I said in an earlier comment, I think it is important sometimes not to be too open about one’s fantasies, simply out of consideration for the other person’s feelings. Porn is so prevalent now and so “out there,” it can feel like a constant blow to one’s self worth and value as a woman. Women know we are imperfect physically, especially if we aren’t 10′s or aren’t in the 20-25 age bracket, yet we are still sexual beings who want to be loved and desired.”

              I think the big problem here is that women themselves are placing too much importance on looks, I swear it seems like women care more about physical beauty than men do. The problem is women putting their value so much in how they look, but I guess it’s similar to men putting their value in their bank account and how insecure they’d feel if their partner fantasized heavily about guys earning more. I don’t think women realize that a lot of guys don’t care all that much that their partner isn’t a 10, and there is far more to attraction than physical looks. For example I do value looks to some extent but a heart of gold is worth more, I’m not gonna fall for a supermodel who doesn’t have a great personality. At most I may want casual sex with her, just a physical lustful relationship, but a women who is older, isn’t as good looking with a great personality will win hands down. So when women get insecure their guy is looking at porn, maybe they need to realize that the guys is looking at it with only one of a few attraction systems going, hence why it’s often said to be just animal urges, women would do good to remind themelves that personality actually does mean a huge amount to many guys.

              You won’t ever be the best looking woman, but you can definitely be the best person for your guy, you will still be physically attractive to most husbands/bf’s, and your personality will be the best he knows, he’ll be thinking of you when you aren’t around, or when he’s at work, not the pornstar with the hot young body. Hell most men probably be think their love first and foremost when horny, and the majority of time probably only you. Some may look at porn n jerk off if you aren’t around, but I’d say you enter his mind a hell of a lot and there are times where I myself will be watching porn and all I see on screen is penetration, 2 bodies, but one body is me, the other is my crush/love/whoever I like. I dunno what you’d call it, superimposing? It’s probably not politically correct but I do have it happen. So when a guy looks at porn, don’t assume he’s ONLY seeing the actress or thinking of banging her, a lot of the time your man could simply be looking at the sex itself and his imagination has you and him going at it. That’s why it’s not a great idea to try mind-read him, or compare yourself to the pornstar. Yeah I do look at beautiful women in porn at times simply for their beauty but I also look at women who closley resemble someone I like and think of them. Haven’t looked at porn in a relationship though so I can only give suggestions of what may happen with men and porn who have a partner.

              “I won’t go so far as Naomi Wolf with regard to the Goddess in my pussy :-) but I think being the object of desire is important to many women’s sexual feelings, and porn undermines this which is why it feels upsetting to many (not all) women. I’m not being judgmental about men who like porn but just trying to explain the female reaction.”

              I do hope these women realize that similarly their men should be worried when women look at romance movies, novels etc, even 50 shades of grey. They fantasize about being desired which is what men fantasize about too, it seems often women feel desired from romance, men feel desired from sex. I hear more women showing insecurity over porn, vs men over women looking at romance though, so are women more insecure or just more vocal about it?

              I hate the term object of desire, women to me at not objects, I prefer the woman of desire, to be yearned for. I realize many women want to be the special person only desired by their partner, similar to men, porn is a tricky issue to deal with as I can see both sides of the fence have legitimate reasons to feel that way. I guess I can still feel desired whilst my partner looks at porn, or reads romance novels, how my partner treats me would be the indicator. If she’s giving me kisses n cuddles n wanting to fuck my brains out and telling me, I will feel desired, even if she occasionally looks at porn. If she looks at porn more than she wants me though, I’d feel less desired similar to some women are feeling. I still think the best thing to combat this is a mix of him making sure she feels desired, working out what is acceptable in their relationship for fantasy material (porn, romance novels, even sex toys need to be discussed), and both of them to truly find more about themselves to feel good about than just their looks, or sexuality. Placing all your eggs in one basket and feeling desired only by sexuality, or your looks is a great way to becoming insecure as looks fade, sexuality varies with life (eg having kids put a damper on it).

              With my partners I try to make them know I value them for more than just their looks, there is also a hugeeeeee amount of value, more than their looks, from just that feeling of love which is so hard to describe with words, you can only really show it by actions.

            • Archy: “I think the big problem here is that women themselves are placing too much importance on looks, I swear it seems like women care more about physical beauty than men do. ”

              Yeah, that’s why you said in the beginning of your post that men are more attracted to younger woman and actually attached numbers regarding a man’s attraction to a younger woman vs an older one? Because women care more about physical beauty then men do?

              How come it’s okay for men to rate women on scales from 1-10, how come it’s okay for you to place numbers on your or another guy’s level of attraction to a younger woman vs an older, but it’s not okay for women to take away the messages you are giving us about our youth or beauty? Do you know how unfair it is for you to sit there and tell women they care too much about their physical beauty while you talk about how men like younger women more or how much men find other women more beautiful then their own partners? But women are the shallow ones because we worry about the impact or beauty or are fading beauty has on men. Oh but we are suppose to smile and think me nare so wonderful adn special as he jerks off to 18 year olds with perfect bodies and we are the selfish ones for taking away certain messages men are clearly sending to women about their worth. Thanks alot. Thanks alot for all that new pressure that we have to deal with.

            • “Yeah, that’s why you said in the beginning of your post that men are more attracted to younger woman and actually attached numbers regarding a man’s attraction to a younger woman vs an older one? Because women care more about physical beauty then men do?”
              Huh? I thought we were talking about one male? When I said “You can feel attraction level 1000 for your partner, level 200 for a young woman in porn, level 170 for an older woman.” I didn’t mean all men, just this man in particular. It also has variables of his age, the age he is attracted to, eg to me an older women is 40+ and yes I am less attracted to 40+ year olds as they’re old enough to be my mother. But as I said it’s hard to quantify attraction, but in this particular case I meant that someone can be a BIT more attracted to younger women in general, but their attraction for their partner can be incomparible and much greater.

              “How come it’s okay for men to rate women on scales from 1-10, how come it’s okay for you to place numbers on your or another guy’s level of attraction to a younger woman vs an older, but it’s not okay for women to take away the messages you are giving us about our youth or beauty?”
              I don’t actually like putting numbers on attractiveness because I find it pointless, I only did it to try explain a point. This is one individual male I was talking about, you can’t start taking messages away from that as representative of all men.

              “Do you know how unfair it is for you to sit there and tell women they care too much about their physical beauty while you talk about how men like younger women more or how much men find other women more beautiful then their own partners? But women are the shallow ones because we worry about the impact or beauty or are fading beauty has on men.”
              Do you know how unfair and quite frankly stupid it is to expect to be seen as the most physically attractive person ever to your partner is? Not to mention entitled?

              “Oh but we are suppose to smile and think me nare so wonderful adn special as he jerks off to 18 year olds with perfect bodies and we are the selfish ones for taking away certain messages men are clearly sending to women about their worth. Thanks alot. Thanks alot for all that new pressure that we have to deal with.”
              Sure, beat yourself up some more whilst you misunderstand my point, not to mention fail at reading what I said. It varies person to person, relationship to relationship. You’ve proven time n time again that you haven’t understood men who are talking here, multiple guys have said that, so I really am starting to doubt the messages you’re getting from guys is really what they’re sending, and starting to think it’s more about your own insecurities, biases, etc that are feeding a negative cycle. Where did I say it was ok for people to rate others with numbers? I didn’t say it was good or bad, I said nothing about it.

              Placing this huge amount of importance on your looks accomplishes what? Do you have no other traits about yourself that are decent? YOU WILL NEVER BE PERFECT, NO ONE IS PERFECT. Looks fade, it’s a fact of life, if your particular partner is looking at much younger women with perfect bodies and it bothers you then talk to him/her about it, it’s something the couple has to work out.

              Is your entire self worth only your looks? All I hear is talk about looks and it really looks like you only think physical attraction matters, meanwhile I’m trying to tell you there is more to attraction than physical. Does the existance of these perfect 18 year olds make you ugly? Nearly everything I hear from women worried about attraction to males revolves around looks, physical attributes, nearly every complaint I hear from men about women has to do with personality issues. So yeah, I do believe women place way way too much importance on looks without realizing how important personality-based attraction is to men. You wanna compare yourself to porn? Porn is purely lust, what message can you take from it? Porn can’t compete with a partner for most people. Do you want to be the most beautiful woman to him physically? Well love can probably make that happen regardless of your actual looks, you can be more beautiful to him physically and in personality than those perfect 18’s. You can’t quantify love, at most I can give an estimate of what physical attraction is like but how the hell do you explain the feeling of love?

              Half the problem is this huge importance on looks, pay more attention to a man’s attraction to other attributes. Your skin will grow old, your looks will fade, but that doesn’t make you ugly in his eyes, it doesn’t make you any less valued, doesn’t make you less beautiful. Yeah some 18 year old perfect swimsuit body may look better from the physical aspect only, but hey? Who the hell is perfect? Accept that you won’t be the most beautiful with physical looks alone and realize that if you’re dating someone, you’re already physically beautiful.

              Everyone worries about their attractiveness, but what I am finding shallow is this hyperfocus many women seem to have with looks. Of course you’re going to have pressure if you focus that hard on looks alone, there comes a point when you need to just accept that looks fade but it doesn’t mean you’re ugly now. Looks don’t keep men around, relying purely on looks will maybe get you a casual relationship but hell if you have a shitty personality then who’s gonna wanna be with you (not you, but the general you)?

              Everyone varies in what they like, trying to be the ideal beauty is a quest for failure, you won’t float everyones boat. Be yourself, love yourself, and hopefully you’ll find a partner that see’s the beauty of you and you both live happily ever after. I can understand the messages you get can be overwhelming and make you feel less attractive but you gotta keep in mind that physical attraction isn’t the only attraction system at work, and the existence of prettier women doesn’t make you ugly. It took me a long time to figure this out, I’m not trying to dismiss your pain here, I’m trying to give you a tip to live a happier life. Focusing on looks is a sure-fire way to make yourself feel like shit as you grow older, and men don’t fall in love simply because of looks.

              Men are not these beasts that only feel lust and it’s time more women realized that, which is what these comment threads often reduce them down to be. Women’s worth is more than skin-deep, pretty much every guy I know seems to understand this, but fewer women I know understand it. The only guys I know that only care about looks are guys that are only interested in 1 night stands, casual sex ONLY, etc.

              I am completely and utterly unsure of how to help you understand men better, I’ve tried, others have tried, but when you’re misunderstanding me so much and then feeling more pressure over it, it becomes extremely frustrating. I seriously and honestly believe that you are misunderstanding what we men are saying, I truly do believe you’re focusing way way too much on physical beauty and missing the bigger picture. You continuously come back to the youth and beauty statements, meanwhile I and other guys are talking about things we like in porn that have nothing to do with looks. I don’t particular see any other women talking or asking about stuff not relating to youth or looks (I may have missed it), so yeah I do honestly feel some women are pretty damn clueless to men, men’s sexuality, and what men like in porn. There are some that might understand but I don’t think they’re the majority. Yeah I am generalizing here a bit, it’s just a personal belief and I could be completely wrong but I am not convinced that either gender really understands the other’s sexuality.

              Do you know how unfair it is to expect a partner to never find another woman as physically beautiful as you are? Maybe I am misunderstanding you bigtime here so lemme know if I am wrong. But I am at a complete loss to try explain it in a way you will understand, but maybe our values just differ so much that I don’t see porn nor fantasies about others as a big deal as long as they remain fantasies and I still am their number one fantasy. I dunno how to help you reduce the pressure you feel, but all I can say is this ALL varies person to person and I am sure there will be men similar to you who you will be great with. There are 7billion people, and all of them have individual tastes, desires, etc.

            • Thank you for calling me stupid and entitled. Not to mention insecure, biased and basically shallow.

              Thank you for undermining me as a person and my comments while making it seem like you know everything and got it all right and that everyone should listen to you.

              I get it perfectly Archy. You and other men are allowed to place a high importance on women’s looks. To the point that you qualify women based on numbers or are very vocal about how much men in general like younger women. Men are allowed to judge our bodies and pick us based on what our bodies offer. You can sort through a billion porn videos and find exactly the thing you want from a woman in that video. But when women talk about the issues this presents for them and the questions they have concerning their looks and sexuality and how that factors into what men are desiring, all the sudden we are just insecure and shallow. Apparently men are allowed to be shallow and objectify women based on their looks. But when women are confronted with dealing with how men see their beauty, we are just shallow and we are less understanding of something than you apparently are. All you have done is tell me how wrong I am and how right you are. And you’ve done it with harsh criticisms and name calling and completely tactless and insensitive comments about beauty, looks and how apparently women aren’t suppose to have any questions concerning it while men are allowed to objectify women all day long. That isn’t fair. Maybe you are the one that doesn’t “get it” Archy. Did you ever stop to think about that? Maybe you are the one that doesn’t understand women very well. Did you ever stop to think about that?

              I see this same justification all the time. Men want the privilege to set the terms of what is physically beautiful in women. They want the privilege to have entire media dedicated to the appeal of the way a woman looks and using that woman’s looks for his own personal pleasure. They want to be able to dictate women’s worth based on their age or rate them on scales. Yet when women talk about the relationship they have with their looks or they have sincere heartfelt issues or questions about the way they see men act regarding women’s looks, all you can do is tell me (and women like me) that I/we are shallow. But you? Apparently you aren’t shallow.

              You haven’t reduced any pressure I feel. All you’ve done is make me feel more frustrated and pressured and like I should be ashamed and that I am apparently shallow and stupid and entitled. Thanks a whole lot.

            • GMP Moderator says:

              Erin and Archy, please refrain from rehashing this argument over and over again on the boards and in articles similar to this one. If you would like to discuss the benefits and detriments of porn, please take it offline and discuss there.

            • Women can think of their value in their looks all they want, all I’m saying is it’s pointless to compare your looks to a fantasy medium that may or may not represent what he wants. I don’t understand how you find this so difficult to understand, it’s as stupid as thinking he’s a serial killer for playing GTA.

              I wasn’t talking at all about women’s worth, I was talking about a single man’s attraction level to various women, not every man’s. I don’t think you’ll ever understand what I am talking about because you’re reading something else in my comments that are not there. You’re completely misunderstanding what I am saying, there’s no point to this argument anymore and the moderator is saying stop so it’s time to stop.

            • LOL!

        • “And then, you hear the same guys who watch porn disrespecting women who do it. They’d never want THEIR partner to be in porn. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. Sometimes, if a woman dares to say these things, she’s pounced upon like she’s some crazy, controlling prude. ”
          I hate the guys that pull that shit, if you can’t respect the women in porn then don’t look at them! I can understand not wanting your partner to be in porn, but don’t disrespect the pornstars. Could I date a pornstar? Solo based porn probably, but with others I dunno, I’d probably get too jealous and be worried about STI’s, etc. But then I am someone that doesn’t want an open relationship either, I still respect those who have open relationships though. I am probably monogymous, I’d possibly try a 3some but even that might feel awkward. I’m not sure how well it’d go down with people I know, I’d probably be telling them to quit being such judgmental lil shits, I already bark at people who say stuff about strippers. I’ve heard people goto strippers, then talk shit about them which realllllly fires me up. I mean why go see them if they’re that bad to you? Only people that should get the opportunity to see others naked are those who have 100% respect for them as people and not people that look at them like meat or look down upon them as dirty.

          I can definitely be friends with porn stars, strippers, sex workers, whatever, only people I’d stay away from would be predatory people, like bad lawyers, rapists, violent people, etc. I don’t see anything wrong with people who have a career in the adult entertainment industry or sex industry, there are plenty of industries people look up to that are actually morally corrupt such as dirty bankers, etc.

  25. “Part of why they’re specifically reacting to you is because your generalizations actually do include them, and the womansplaining parts have been demeaning themselves.”

    I feel really demeaned when you tell me my opinion is a matter of “womansplaining”. As if my having certain thoughts is only because I am a woman. Is it possible for you to stop using this phrase? It’s not a very positive one. We are all human beings and we don’t have “mansplaining” or “womansplainging” opinions.

    “There are things in your comments which wander from speaking of personal opinion to speaking fact, so it’s obvious why men (especially me) are getting defensive and annoyed. “

    You do the same thing! Our opinions are a combination of personal opinion and what we think are facts. This is not offensive to me. I am not sure why it’s offensive to you when I do it but it’s okay when you do it.

    “Do you think this is all or just most porn? Is there porn that can actually celebrate women? I find it hard to believe Camille Crimson’s porn rips apart women’ femininity and sexuality.”

    As I’ve said before, most porn isn’t very celebratory of women at all. Just male fantasy. I don’t even know who “Camille Crimson” is.

    “Access to porn + a culture that accepts sexuality being more open is finally upon us, if the internet were in roman days I guarantee porn use would have been high too.”

    Access to porn and more porn isn’t about acceptance of sexuality. I am also not very interested in what would have been in Roman days. I am interested in how much porn men and increasingly women are using. We seem to enjoy voyerism much more then actual real life sex in our culture.

    “Hookup culture is also at one of it’s highest points too in history from what I know, sexuality is becoming more unrestricted. Do you want to go back to previous times? “

    I want a time to evolve where human approach to sexuality is actually healthy and not one reeked in prudishness and not one reeked in aggresive hookup sex and not one where people are more interested in watching porn and “learning” from it hen exploring their sexuality on heir own independent of porn.

    “In the next decade I think the degrading stuff will drop in ratio with the good stuff, especially as more ethical porn is produced and more women take charge in making porn.”

    I still have no clue what “ehtical” porn even means or how every man that watches “ethical” porn knows it’s “ethical”. If this was going to happen, why hasn’t it happened already? Men have had bilions of years of porn right? Why isn’t it by now already “fair”? I don’t really think men will ever want something fair. If it’s not about calling women names, then it’s about uphodling stereotypes women are expected to live up to and men with daughters looking at women/girls young enough to be their daughters.

    “There is also proof that women’s sexuality and femininity is celebrated, just depends what you watch.”

    Not if old stereotypes are always alive and well in porn. Such as the ideas that white, thin, young , big breasts women are best. And yes, this stereotype still pervades. But it’s fantasy so its suppose to be okay. Oh but that’s right ladies! Don’t be affected by this even as your man is. You must be stronger then that while he can revel around in it.

    “Porn isn’t going away, condemn the bad stuff but celebrate the good stuff, the medium is going through changes as amateur content is skyrocketing. “

    How about I celebrate real sexuality between two people and not videos? Is that okay? Or is that no longer okay anymore to encourage people to have actual human connections?

    Also, when did “amateur” become defined as “healthy” or “good” content? Who is determining that? You? Who says that because something isn’t filmed in an expensive studio that it’s a healthy representation of sex? Who says that people even know they are being posted having sex all the time? Who said “amateur” meant “healthy”

    “Attitudes towards sex itself are changing, and hopefully for the better, the time you speak of when porn wasn’t used much was also a time when women had far less rights, were stuck even more so in gender roles, sexuality was oppressed. Was it really a better time?”

    Oh I see..because women have more rights we should be happy with what we get today???????????

    “If anythign men are far more egalitarian today than before, and I do think porn is changing and adapting to that. Of the porn views who have commented here at least, they are indicating a desire to look for ethical porn, that says something at least?”

    I don’t even know what ethical porn is or how you know that all the porn you look at is ethical. I do know that a lot of porn out there exists treating women like they are worthless or making women’s worth dependent on their age or bodies. The woman is usually the one focused on because she is the object used for masturbation.

    “The desire to look at porn will probably always exist, it’s better to talk about porn and acknowledge the good porn at least and direct people towards that than to simply deem it all degrading and throw it out. That is my point, I hope you will at least ask men n women to look at ethical porn where they can and to boycott the bad stuff.”

    I would ask people to put down the porn for a change and re-learn how to be just one on one with someone and not having a need to turn to all these outside outlets to self regulate themselves. It scares me how much men specifically have let porn take over their lives.

    • “Part of why they’re specifically reacting to you is because your generalizations actually do include them, and the womansplaining parts have been demeaning themselves.”

      “I feel really demeaned when you tell me my opinion is a matter of “womansplaining”. As if my having certain thoughts is only because I am a woman. Is it possible for you to stop using this phrase? It’s not a very positive one. We are all human beings and we don’t have “mansplaining” or “womansplainging” opinions. ”

      Ugh, are you really having this much trouble understanding it? THERE is a huge difference between saying “I think men think of old women as x, and young women as y” vs saying “MEN think of old women as x, and young women as y”. When you ask what men think, they reply, then you ignore that and state specifically what men think about when they look at porn, you aren’t stating an opinion that you think men look at porn, you’re stating a fact without ever being able to truly know what one man thinks, let alone all men. I dunno how to explain this any further to you, and weren’t you someone who agreed with the mansplaining article? Fine, take gender out of it, You’re ‘splaining to us men, telling us our own experience. I don’t mean the times you say you think men do this, I mean when you specifically state it. You’re free to say your opinion all you want, just don’t ‘splain to us. If I am doing it, call me out on it because I don’t intend to do it.

      “You do the same thing! Our opinions are a combination of personal opinion and what we think are facts. This is not offensive to me. I am not sure why it’s offensive to you when I do it but it’s okay when you do it. ”
      Call me out on it, I specifically try to state much of it as opinion vs fact. The only stuff I state as fact is stuff I can usually backup.

      “We seem to enjoy voyerism much more then actual real life sex in our culture.”
      Go ask every guy here if they prefer porn or real life sex. I dunno how you could even think such a thing, Nearly everyone will say they prefer real sex and I’ll gladly state that as fact because if I am wrong then you can shoot me.

      “I want a time to evolve where human approach to sexuality is actually healthy and not one reeked in prudishness and not one reeked in aggresive hookup sex and not one where people are more interested in watching porn and “learning” from it hen exploring their sexuality on heir own independent of porn. ”
      Advocate for high quality sex education, that’s the only way you will get porn out of sex lives to the extent I believe you want. People need access to the actual how-to guides for having sex, and they need it in highschool. Porn only teachs because it’s the only material that is so popular and does so at the age of learning of sexuality (post-puberty). If teens don’t get access to the how-to, curiosity is probably going to lead them to the industry built on showing sex. They need a healthy outlet for their sexuality, some porn can fulfill that of course but other stuff is bad for them.

      “I still have no clue what “ehtical” porn even means or how every man that watches “ethical” porn knows it’s “ethical”. If this was going to happen, why hasn’t it happened already? ”
      NOT ALL MEN ARE THE SAME FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME

      “I don’t really think men will ever want something fair.”
      If I said I don’t really think men will ever want something fair, what would you call me? Do you mean some men, all men, most men? What is “men”?

      “How about I celebrate real sexuality between two people and not videos? Is that okay? Or is that no longer okay anymore to encourage people to have actual human connections? ”
      Of course it’s ok, why wouldn’t it be?

      “Also, when did “amateur” become defined as “healthy” or “good” content? Who is determining that? You? Who says that because something isn’t filmed in an expensive studio that it’s a healthy representation of sex? Who says that people even know they are being posted having sex all the time? Who said “amateur” meant “healthy””
      It has a higher chance of being healthy if you had bothered to ever actually read my comments. A couple having sex at home on their camera is a much more realistic portrayal of human sexuality than a paid-for production.

      “Oh I see..because women have more rights we should be happy with what we get today???????????”
      I’d say happier, but hey, misread what I said some more.

      “I don’t even know what ethical porn is or how you know that all the porn you look at is ethical. I do know that a lot of porn out there exists treating women like they are worthless or making women’s worth dependent on their age or bodies. The woman is usually the one focused on because she is the object used for masturbation.”
      I don’t think you want to learn what it is so I’m not goign to waste my time saying it. Google it, or go ask Camille in this thread ht tp://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-good-life-how-to-receive-a-blowjob-respectfully/

      “I would ask people to put down the porn for a change and re-learn how to be just one on one with someone and not having a need to turn to all these outside outlets to self regulate themselves. It scares me how much men specifically have let porn take over their lives.”
      Send a woman my way and I’d be glad to. Why only the men? Does it scare you how much women have let it take over their lives? I mean women that actually enjoy porn like “the men” do? Go tell my disabled friend who finds it extremely difficult to get women’s attention, who’s never had a date to put the porn down. Or, how about you date him? I can understand you telling married men, etc to put the porn down, but what about single people who have been knocked back time n time again?

  26. This article is harmful. The hardcore porn industry is completely disrespectful and denigrating to women ins general, and to the women it employs. Porn adversely affects every man that uses it, no matter if he admits it or not. It reduces something God created to be special, unique, beautiful, valuable, to something that is mundane, ugly, and everyday.

    • Most of us would love it if sex was everyday!

    • I’m not sure what you mean – God did create porn or at least facilitated it. Surely our creator should have anticipated that by putting up nice blank cave walls that we would be destined to draw genitals on them, no?

      • God gave people free will. He doesn’t want people to have a relationship with him simply because he forced them too and took that choice away from them. He gives us a lot of room for a lot of choices. What we do with it is ultimately our choice. I also don’t think that it’s a simple matter of “drawing genitals” in a clinical way that is offensive to God. But more of how we may not fully respect our bodies by giving credence to what feels good for us first rather then thinking of others or the consequences or implications of how we are treating others and even ourselves.

        • Nick, mostly says:

          Wait, how is it you people know the mind of God?

          • Clearly no one entirely knows the mind of God but all we can do is go off how we interpret his teachings based on the information we have. It’s not all suppose to be mapped out to perfection. There is a little element of “faith” God quite enjoys. :)

        • Which god? Porn is sinful to some, but ok to others. God also apparently hates homosexuality too and says that is a sin in some religions, and that women should obey their husbands as he is the head of the household. No sex till marriage, yadda yadda.

          If god is all knowing, and all powerful, surely his/her mind-power is so great that he can see into the future and know the interactions of every molecule, thought n process in the universe? Even the bigbang would need to be created, everything would be put into place in the right order so that billions of years later humans evolve and he’d know how they would evolve, how they would evolve their culture n finally how religion is born. Or he created the world in 6000 years, atom by atom, and the same principle remains. If he is the creator, did he just close his eyes n jumble up everything or did he specifically place each atom in a specific position? If he did the latter than there is no such thing as free will because the environment, and all interactions are fully known by him and due to being specifically placed it means he’s setup a mega domino set and knows exactly how it will play out, to his design.

          Free will can only exist if he is not all knowing, and isn’t able to comprehend the interaction of all elements, atoms, etc. So either he is not all knowing, or he engineered us to be sinful then guilts us for our apparently freewill, or there is no god. Which is it? Quite frankly I believe if he does exist then I don’t think he can be all knowing as some say otherwise freewill doesn’t exist and we’re simply reacting to the sum of our environment, learning, our instincts n biology, on a pre-set course that he already knows what will happen. We have the illusion of free will in that theory, but we’re still slaves to a designed future if it’s true.

          • Which God hates homosexuality? I am not really sure what God’s position is on homosexuality. Sometimes people take Bible passages out of context.

            But yes, the Bible does talk about how women should obey their husbands. However, this is not because God desires a servant/master relationship. He also gives instructions to men in the Bible about how to be good husbands. The advice he gives both men and women do come down to respecting one another in the unique way a man or woman experiences respect.

            I won’t pretend that I have God or regilion all figured out. If I did, it would defeat the purpose of having faith. But I know that God gave humanity free will because he gave Adam and Eve free will. He gave then enough knowledge to not touch one thing and he gave them free will to make that choice for themselves. Just because God is all knowing, beyond anything human beings can grasp, doesn’t mean he didn’t give human beings free will. Free will can perfectly exist in the presence of an all knowing God. I don’t pretend to have anything close to the same amount of understanding and comprehension as God. And when I don’t have clear cut answers, I give them up to God in those cases. But that is just how I practice religion. I don’t demand that you or other people accept or adopt the way I see it. Religion is a very personal thing and a journey that is unique to an individual.

            • Considering atoms, etc only move in a set pattern, and react to their environment, if this universe was created by an all knowing god then he’d know fully how everything interacts and know every single choice that will be made. I can’t see how logically he can be that powerful if he gave them free will, he would have to create a mental block surrounding the actions of humans or purposely block out parts of his design in his mind so he can’t predict the future. Something seems amiss to me and that always caught my eye about the theory of him being all powerful. You’d have to close your mind and design away to ensure you don’t design in future choices if you also designed their environment.

            • I don’t pretend that I have the whole world figured out Archy. Clearly religion is also a matter of faith. It is not fully explained by science. It never will be. Heck, even some things that are explained by science are still not fully understood. Even some things that are explained by science sometimes years later come out that they weren’t true at all. Science isn’t infallible. Human understanding of the world isn’t infallible.

              I do know a few truths that I live my life by personally:

              God is real
              God is all knowing
              God created human beings to have free will

              My little human mind can’t not even begin to comprehend all the ways God operates. For me, it would be egotistical to pretend that it could.

              Perhaps God does know how everything little thing will end up. Doesn’t mean he didn’t give us free will. Angels have free will too. Which is why Lucifer fell to his decent. It’s also why Adam and Eve disobeyed God. These examples show that free will exists in the same world that was created by God.

              I understand the conundrum you are having. I am not saying i got it all figured out. All I am saying is that I believe in God, I have faith in him and I know that I have free will to choose a relationship with God or not.

              I do not request you think the same thing I think or believe. Whatever you may believe we are still both human beings and we are equals. But you are not going to change my perception on these topics even if you believe you are using science to do so.

            • I think anything is possible, hence I am agnostic, not atheist. I have no idea if a god or god’s exist or not, if they do I want a fusion power plant!

            • Nick, mostly says:

              It should be noted that atheist doesn’t mean “believes there are no gods,” it means “doesn’t have a belief that there is a god.” It may seem like a semantic difference, but that difference leads to a lot of acrimony and misunderstanding.

              Don’t kid yourself, you’re an atheist just like Erin is. Neither you nor Erin lose any sleep in not believing in Vishnu, or Odin, or Zeus. Neither of you wonder whether you should be following Baal, whether Quetzalcoatl will grant you wisdom, or if Ishkur will spare you trouble on your journey. With respect to the hundreds of known gods, neither of you give a second thought to dismissing them. Your lack of belief in those gods is what makes you an atheist with respect to those gods. Of course, Erin has faith that one of those many gods, Ēl Shaddāi, does exist whereas it sounds like you do not.

              There is a term “positive atheism” (also known as “strong atheism”) that asserts that no gods exist. I would hazard a guess that for the many gods I listed above, both you and Erin are positive atheists. With respect to Yahweh, however, Erin has unwarranted belief (otherwise known as “faith”) whereas you lack belief. That would make you a strong atheist for some number of gods, and a negative atheist for some other number of gods while Erin is a strong atheist for all gods except one, for which she is a theist.

            • Nick, I respect your right to set the terms of your faith or non-faith for yourself and label yourself or not label yourself whatever title you’d like to use to express that facet of your life. However, when you begin labeling others and attaching titles to them as if it’s “truth”, in essence, dictating the terms by which I (and Archy) practice certain parts of our lives, acting like you know who I am or what I am about in combination with that, you become insulting and condesending. Don’t ever again dictate to me what my belief system is or attach labels on me that I have not agreed to because of what you have decided is your understanding of religion in general. You are clearly a well read and smart man. You throw around book titles and drop names like Santa throws around candy at a New York Jets football game. But you don’t know everything and you don’t know me. And the terms you’ve set for reglion are not the terms I have set for religion.

              No. I am not an atheist. However, if you want to give yourself the title of atheist, that is up to you. Don’t ever again tell me what I am or what I believe.

            • Hi 5 Erin for standing up for your beliefs.

              I recently read some of the Sumarian faith (Anunnaki and friends) and how the movie Prometheus was based on it. I gotta say the Sumarian setup was pretty interesting, but I find the most fascinating beliefs were the roman and greek gods (zeus, etc). I don’t believe in those faiths, but I gotta hand it to them for creativity if it isn’t the actual gods if they do exist.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              That’s funny, coming from someone who’s shown no hesitance in telling others what they believe, and what their motivations are.

              You seem to be all in a huff and yet I don’t think you’ve actually understood what I’ve said. I didn’t say you’re an atheist, full stop. I said you’re an atheist with respect to the gods I listed, and the many hundreds of gods I didn’t, but that you’re a theist when it comes to Yahweh, the God of the bible.

              For the latter part of my assertion I’ve only repeated what you’ve written yourself. You’ve self-identified as a Christian. So, are you a theist concerning Yahweh or are you not?

              For the former part, I’ve made two assumptions. First, I’ve made the assumption that you do not believe in the gods I listed. For example, you do not believe that Zeus is a real god, or that there is a good probability that Zeus is real. Am I incorrect on this account or do you not have a belief in any of those other gods?
              Second, I’ve made an assumption that because you identify as Christian, you believe Yahweh is the one, true god. That necessarily excludes a belief in any and all other gods from existing.

              Again, the definition of “atheist” is not having a belief in god. With respect to Yahweh, you are not an atheist, you are a theist. With respect to all of the other so-called gods, you don’t have a belief in them therefore you’re an atheist with respect to all those other gods.

              Please explain to me why this is a controversial statement? Do you disagree with any of those statements about your belief? Are you a Christian that believes there might be or are gods other than Yahweh? Because that’s the only way in which what I’ve asserted might be inaccurate.

            • From Wiki:
              “Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.”

              “Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable. Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the difference between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that humanity does not currently possess the requisite knowledge and/or reason to provide sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.”

              “Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists. In a more specific sense, theism is a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God and God’s relationship to the universe. Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism. The use of the word theism to indicate this classical form of monotheism began during the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century in order to distinguish it from the then-emerging deism which contended that God, though transcendent and supreme, did not intervene in the natural world and could be known rationally but not via revelation.”

              You can’t be atheist to one god but theist to another? From these definitions as I understand it, Erin is simply a theist and I am simply an agnostic. Someone who believes in at least one god is a theist, it’s impossible to be athiest if you believe in ANY god.

            • All I am asking is that you not define my religious beliefs for me. I don’t think that’s a terrible thing to ask. I think most people wouldn’t enjoy someone else characterizing their own personal beliefs. I respect your right to assuage your own religion in your life anyway you choose and choose the terms that you believe best fit your beliefs or yourself.

              And yes, I do understand what you are saying. I don’t think you really understand the true definition of atheism anyway. I also am not interested in answering to you for my religious beliefs either way.

              By the way, where have I told others what they believe or what their motivations are? I have certainly made generalities on a general basis. But when have I ever said, “Nick believes “x” so I will call him “z””?

              There is one thing you have gotten right. You’ve made assumptions. You think because you’re well read that you can dictate the terms of who other people are.

              Sometimes when people are too invested in intellectual pursuits, they sometimes loose sight of other things in translation.

            • Thanks Archy. :) I wanted to stick up for you too since Nick’s comments where in regards to you too a bit but I didn’t want to speak for you since that might not be fair either.

              I always found Greek mythology very interesting myself. It was part of the reason I took four years of Latin in school. The history and mythology is really interesting stuff.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              If one of my students had used that Wiki entry to define those terms they would have gotten a C- at best.

              When we use the word “atheist” without any qualifier, you can assume it to mean that someone doesn’t have a belief in any gods. However that’s not how I used the term.

              When we go down the list of gods, we definitely have positions on each of them. Some gods we think are possible, others fanciful. We don’t say, “well, I’m not entirely sure if the FSM exists or not. I need some more data. I’m agnostic about the existence of FSM.” No, we know that the FSM was a creation of Bobby Henderson. How then do we describe our belief in FSM? Do we say we’re agnostic about FSM because we might be agnostic about Jehovah? No, we clearly hold one belief about FSM, and another about Jehovah. That’s all I’m saying.

              This idea of “atheist” and “theist” being about a particular deity – specifically the god of Abraham – is a simply an example of how we view the world from our Western lens. Is a Hindu a theist, atheist, agnostic, or other? If you go by Wikipedia, perhaps all of the above? Or none of the above? It simply makes no sense to have these terms as overarching categories.

              Now you may be agnostic about a few gods. You may think there is insufficient evidence to believe or not believe in Allah, or Siddartha. But that doesn’t mean you’re agnostic about all of the hundred of gods that have been proposed.

              And yet, simply stating a fact that should be so plain as to be unremarkable is yet so controversial. I’m curious why that is.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              I also am not interested in answering to you for my religious beliefs either way.

              I don’t need an answer, I have it already.

              Is it not curious though that what I’ve written isn’t untrue, and yet you still have such a visceral reaction to it?

              Oh, and as for your question:

              By the way, where have I told others what they believe or what their motivations are?

              It looks like you’ve already answered it.

              You think because you’re well read that you can dictate the terms of who other people are.

              This isn’t the first time either; you frequently write like that. Perhaps to you that is simply a rhetorical style, but that’s not how it comes across. One would think from the reactions to your comments you would have realized that by now, particularly when others have explicitly told you so. One would apparently be mistaken.

            • “I always found Greek mythology very interesting myself. It was part of the reason I took four years of Latin in school. The history and mythology is really interesting stuff.”
              Thanks. It’s one of my favourite genres for movies n games.

            • I’m sorry Nick, but did Archy sign up for your class and that’s why you are telling him what his “grade” would be?

              Unfortunately for you Nick, no one here is your student and I doubt Archy is any more interested in your “grades” than I am. Have fun molding the minds of impressionable young people.

              At the end of the day, you clearly want the power to be able to dictate toward others what they believe in and attach labels to them. Really I get it. You’ve read a lot of books. Kudos to you. I look forward to see more book and author name dropping in your posts in the future. Perhaps I can work in some grading structure of my own. Clearly you can not respect my request to not label or define my personal beliefs. For that, I wouldn’t even give you a C.

              By the way Nick, it’s just a fact that you obviously believe that because you are well read, that you can dictate the terms of who other people are. This is exactly what you’ve showcased in this thread and in others.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              I’m sorry Nick, but did Archy sign up for your class and that’s why you are telling him what his “grade” would be?

              To be clear, that was a comment on the Wikipedia entry, not Archy.

              At the end of the day, you clearly want the power to be able to dictate toward others what they believe in and attach labels to them.

              Yes, that’s exactly what I want. Bwah ha ha ha ha! Fear me, mere mortals, for I have the power to label a belief!

              Clearly you can not respect my request to not label or define my personal beliefs.

              Clearly I am missing where, after you made your request, I then ignored it. Can you quote that please? My eyesight is failing me at such a late hour, and I can’t find where, in the comments I’ve made subsequent to your demand, I continued to assert you’re a theist with respect to Yahweh or a Christian.

            • “To be clear, that was a comment on the Wikipedia entry, not Archy.”

              You said that if one of your students had used *that* Wiki entry, *they* would have gotten a C- at best. You said *they* would have received the grade. I don’t see how your comment is simply related to Wiki and not related to the person that used it.

              “Yes, that’s exactly what I want. Bwah ha ha ha ha! Fear me, mere mortals, for I have the power to label a belief!”

              Lol, I have to admit I laughed sincerely at that even if I still disagree with you.

              “Clearly I am missing where, after you made your request, I then ignored it. Can you quote that please? My eyesight is failing me at such a late hour, and I can’t find where, in the comments I’ve made subsequent to your demand, I continued to assert you’re a theist with respect to Yahweh or a Christian.”

              You continue to re-enforce over simplified concepts of religion and belief systems.

              Were you raised Jewish?

              You clearly believe me to be portionally an “atheist”. I would be fine if you had said, ” I believe that people can be portionally atheists if they deny the existance of other gods. ” Fine. That’s what you believe.

              But when you say things like this: ““Don’t kid yourself, you’re an atheist just like Erin. Neither you nor Erin lose any sleep in not believing in Vishnu, Odin, Zeus…”, it’s so offensive and dictating the terms which others choose to live their life.

              What kind of statement is “Niether you nore Erin lose any sleep in not believing in..” other gods anyway? LIke you do lose sleep over this? LIke if we don’t lose sleep over it it means we don’t give other religions respect? Statements about what people do or don’t lose sleep over sound rather antagonistic.

              You go on to talk about how we don’t give a second thought to dismissing them and my “unwarrented” beliefs. Who the heck are you to qualify what I am dismissive of or not? Who are you to say what warrants my beliefs or doesn’t? How do you know what my religious journey as been and what questions I’ve struggled with?

            • GMP Moderator says:

              Please keep the subject on topic. Any other arguments can be taken offline.

  27. What I don´t like about porn is that is makes (at least in my case) girls feel insecure. Like my boyfriend watches porn, he told me about that. Just thinking about him pleasuring himself watching other girls makes me feel really uncomfortable, cuz you know… 100% shaved bodies, no scars (cuz they use make up), no spots, strecth marks… it makes me feel that when we have sex, it´s like he´s not used to seeing my spots and stretch marks, and visually, a girl without those is considered “prettiered”. I know lots of girls have this problem. Boys in relationships watching porn and having an orgasm while watching some other girl instead of us. Yes, some of us don´t really like to “share” and it´s just some girl issue.

  28. Is there a significance to exchanging the “”Z” on the typewriter / keyboard with a “W”?

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