Mike Dunn calls for the equality of gender and expectation as adaptation to today’s progressive dating landscape.
Upon finishing The Atlantic’s November cover story “All the Single Ladies,” I found myself focusing on the words “deadbeat,” “player,” and “good man.” I don’t disagree with Bolick about what women are facing in the changing landscape of relationships between men and women. After five consecutive years in low-sex-ratio-societies (two in the Peace Corps and over three in Washington, D.C., what I think may count as extreme examples) I am more than familiar with the players and deadbeats that women are confronted with, and agree with her completely.
It did bother me to think that women arrive later in life
at the top of the staircase, finally ready to start [their] lives, only to discover a cavernous room at the tail end of a party, most of the men gone already, some having never shown up—and those who remain are leering by the cheese table, or are, you know, the ones you don’t want to go out with.
As a result I found myself thinking a lot about the “good man” in her article. Was it really possible that all the good men are taken early on and so don’t count in the longer discussion of coupling in later years?
It is easy to grasp Bolick’s definition of players and deadbeats. She devotes a paragraph each to describe her own personal experience with players (four examples given) and deadbeats (two examples, though she states they were the majority). These personal anecdotes move her discussion forward:
If dating and mating is in fact a marketplace—and of course it is—today we’re contending with a new “dating gap,” where marriage-minded women are increasingly confronted with either deadbeats or players. For evidence, we don’t need to look to the past, or abroad—we have two examples right in front of us: the African American community, and the college campus.
These two examples of descriptors account for approximately a quarter of her article. Yet, I don’t think this a new phenomenon for men. I think there have always been players and deadbeats. Greater gender parity and moving away, slowly, from a patriarchal perspective are putting these men under greater scrutiny. Today’s women, rightly so, are less forgiving and accepting of the players and deadbeats as the dynamics of interpersonal relationships change.
♦◊♦
If there are players and deadbeats then there has to be a flip side to the coin of equal significance and impact worth exploring. I would accept the argument that good men are rarer than their counterparts, but they are out there. Or so I hope. If not, then Bolick is right when she jokingly states that “[all] capitalist men are pigs!” It is, however, difficult to assess from Bolick’s article who or what the “good man” is or what he represents. She mentions the words “good man” twice and “good men” once, and between these short examples she seems to construct two very different definitions for the same thing.
The first example she gives of a good man is a traditional definition. Good men are the “shrinking pool of what are traditionally considered to be ‘marriageable’ men—those who are better educated and earn more than [women] do.” The perception in this definition is that men are the “bread winners” and, as a result, women “marry-up” in their relationships. But, these traditional perceptions are quickly becoming outdated. They already are, really.
There is an obvious shift in relationship dynamics between men and women, but it is not one easily accepted as a result of tradition or ideology. Bolick herself addresses this dynamic shift elegantly when she asks, “Now that [women] can pursue [their] own status and security, and are therefore liberated from needing men the way [they] once did, [they] are free to like them more, or at least more idiosyncratically, which is how love ought to be, isn’t it?”
Which leads me to the second definition of the good man. My personal perception: a good man is someone who is honest, caring, and loyal. If he has a wife, he’s a dutiful husband; if he has children, he’s a sacrificing father. In the second instance where she uses the words “good man,” Bolick’s definition is essentially her description of Allan. She describes him early on as “an exceptional person, intelligent, good-looking, loyal, kind.”
The article is littered with personal anecdotes about players and deadbeats, but really only one about a good man: Allan. It’s easy to dismiss the good man in Bolick’s account because the only example has a perceived happy ending. Allan doesn’t need to cope with being single in a changing world. He doesn’t need to look for some kind of peace, perspective, or place where being single is OK as marriageable hours tick away. But that is Allan’s story. It is not the story of good men, many of who are struggling with the same issues as Bolick herself. Good men navigating a dating scene of women players and women deadbeats. Good men who feel similar, traditional pressures as women to marry and settle down. Good men who try to cope with being single later and later into their adult lives. The severity or stress of these pressures may not equal that placed on women, but that doesn’t make them any less real or any less poignant.
♦◊♦
Bolick has “too many ex-boyfriends to count.” Naturally, the reader infers that she has played the field, so to speak, and come across multiple different types of men. Should Bolick then be considered “a player,” especially considering that most of “the deadbeats” she describes seem commitment-minded? It’s difficult to assume, of course. The assumption’s either fair or unfair. Certainly a lot depends on how she communicated her own intentions to those men. Ultimately, it may not matter—whether the subject is a woman or a man.
Bolick herself states much later that the problem with Allan was that she wanted two conflicting states of being: autonomy and intimacy. That is a definition of a “player,” who “plays the field” finding intimacy where he or she can while remaining autonomous, strictly non-monogamous, in the process. The men she describes as players—what were their perspectives of her? In my mind, Bolick, in her own article, is at times player, deadbeat, and good woman.
My own story is no different. It’s actually incredibly similar. I was with a woman for the better part of four years, and will only ever say the greatest things about her. She was and is a phenomenal woman. But, I decided that I wasn’t ready to settle, that something was missing, that I was conflicted between wanting intimacy and autonomy. I can similarly say that I have too many ex-girlfriends to count. There were times when I was simply looking for that intimacy and staying fiercely autonomous and was certainly a player. Some of those women were good women, really good women. But it wasn’t the right time. I was selfish, and wanted to be. Some of those women were also deadbeats. Some of them were players themselves. And who was I in their eyes? A heartless player? A good catch who wasn’t interested? A deadbeat getting played? Honestly, like Bolick, I was—I am—all the above.
I think all men and women in today’s dating dynamic have the capability to be in varying degrees the good man, the good woman, the player, and the deadbeat. Times change, as do perspectives, needs, and wants. All of these are constantly in flux. Someone who is a player one year might be a deadbeat the next year. Someone who is ready to settle down one year may find him- or herself in a completely different state of mind the next. Meeting the right person at the right time is no easy feat, after all. According to Bolick, it may not even be possible.
Which brings me back to my original question: is it really possible that all good men are taken early on, that none are left by the time when get to Bolick’s age? I don’t think the answer is as simple as to be about good men or good women. Overall, I think Bolick is mostly correct in her observations. I found her points on the changing gender dynamic to be astute, and her exploration of being single (particularly later in adult life) in the changing landscape of relationships was incredibly thoughtful. I only diverge with her on one thing: who is available for a relationship later in one’s life. Not all the men are deadbeats. They’re not all players. And, absolutely, they’re not all good. But the same is true of the women. When a man tries to settle down in his later years, he may play the field and, like Bolick, be disappointed with the selection.
♦◊♦
It makes sense that the dating scene is at odds with itself because more and more of the working population are attacking their lives individualistically. They’re developing their professional life prior to taking a compromising approach with a partner. Furthermore, social spheres tend to dwindle as people age—friends from college, graduate school, clubs, even happy hours lose touch, contacts and networks drop off. And, as gender parity takes more hold, and while we haven’t fully let go of outdated traditional perspectives, it makes sense that men and women are at odds about whom they want and when they want them. We all just need to adapt to the changing landscape. We need to know that, as we grow older and have less social spheres to peruse, we may just find the “right” partner in a bar; we may have to redefine marriage, and its necessity, through a cultural lens; we have to know that anyone we may meet and give a chance may be a good man or good woman, and that they’re not may be because the timing wasn’t right.
Simply, it’s not about there being no good men or good women left when older singles are ready to settle down. Depending on when people meet one another, what they’re priorities are at that time, what perspectives or definitions they’re holding then—everything has to do with who we view as a good, marriageable partner. We can all be players and deadbeats, and we can all be “good.” But the nurse practitioner, the investment banker, the book publisher, the Navy SEAL—whoever it is, whatever he or she does, sadly, but most likely, it’s just not the right one at the right time.
Most likely, these changes will all be for the better in the long run. Currently, we are in the middle of growing pains. And it’s frustrating. Frustrating to think that there are good women out there saying there are no good men left, that there are good men saying the same thing about women. So what do we do? “Find a room of one’s own, for each of us. A place where single [people] can live and thrive as themselves.” I place a strong emphasis in my life on being comfortable in my own skin and on my own … I just hate to think that I may never get to share that room with someone special, where we can live and thrive together.
—Photo bp6316/Flickr
It’s actually a cool and helpful piece of info. I am glad that you just shared this useful info with us. Please keep us informed like this. Thanks for sharing.
Ok, the post monster got my post again. I’ll rewrite the short version: When I met my ex, he was unemployed and while we were dating, he could only get casual work at best. He was slightly below average looking. Looks and money didn’t matter to me. Nor did the fact that he’d use drugs briefly after his mum died but got out of that scene before we started dating. What DID matter, is he seemed like a nice, caring, loving, loyal, faithful partner. I had no idea he had a long history of abusing and cheating on women before… Read more »
While on the topic of honesty and fear in dating – more women have std’s than men.
What about disclosure before hand? In many states this is felony. It should be in all.
I would take an ugly girl over a dishonest one – for better chances of safety and she might appreciate the attention.
And why is that? who gives women the majority of STDs? strangely enough, it’s MEN. All of the women I know with STDs are married women who married as virgins and were given STDs by cheating promiscuous husbands. The jerks I know, remain STD free because they deliberately target women with little or no sexual experience. Men like my ex who “deflowered” at least a dozen women. I’m sorry John but it’s pretty offensive towards women to say you’d take an ugly girl because she might appreciate the attention. That’s pretty cruel. Truth is, an ugly girl probably won’t appreciate… Read more »
And yet you married this man. Now according to the theory of the ‘nice guy’, women can sense that a man is an asshole and thus avoid him. This is used to explain why some men never get any attention from women, and since you married this man he can’t be an asshole since you gave him attention. Had he been an asshole you would have sensed it and avoided him.
Warnning! Bad joke comming…
My Papy use ta say, Son…
“Being with a Career Women is like being accepted into a prestigious university
Ya gotta lie to get in,
They’re expensive as all ta be dammed,
& you’re always being threatened with expulsion fur not keeping up with everybody else…”
Wait Dad if they’re so Bad Why Marry them….?
Because Son, you’ll get to loose WaAay Cooler Stuff in the divorce then you could’ve gotten on your own.
I just want to point out that not all feminists are:
a) female
b) full of venom
c) man-hating
d) filled with a sense of entitlement
And I think the sense of entitlement Copyleft is referring to is not by any means reserved to one gender. Whatever your personal experiences are, there are just as many men as women who have unrealistically high expectations in a potential mate. I think the problem may also lie in our (fairly recent) societal expectation that marriage be a continual romance as well as a partnership.
Of course you’re right, Beth. Obviously not all feminists are in that misandric category–just the most outspoken and prominent ones.
And no, entitlement is not reserved to one gender; but all too often it’s socially EXCUSED in one gender and condemned in the other.
Do you realise the early history of feminism is very different from today?
Not all people who believe in feminism (where feminism = equality for females), believe in the male-hating crap that some women push as feminism.
I find it ironic that many of the early feminists were pro-family, anti-abortion, and pro-manliness.
There are a good deal of women like myself who would love to call themselves feminists because we believe in equality of the sexes, but are also disgusted by the man-haters out there who have hijacked “feminism”.
Not all feminists are like these man-hating freaks.
@Beth Kong “And I think the sense of entitlement Copyleft is referring to is not by any means reserved to one gender. Whatever your personal experiences are, there are just as many men as women who have unrealistically high expectations in a potential mate. I think the problem may also lie in our (fairly recent) societal expectation that marriage be a continual romance as well as a partnership.” When was the last time you saw a man seriously going to the media and accusing everyone else for being at fault for his inability to attract a mate? The last time… Read more »
Typo: living in his PARENTS basement.
Jill says: “I’ve read quite a few things by PUA’s, and it always surprises me that they spend so much time and energy denigrating women they don’t find attractive (older women, women who are less than perfect 10′s, etc)” I think the rage you’re sensing is at less than attractive women that act as if they are a 10. I agree that what they are saying is crass, but it’s not (to my mind anyway) directed at all aged or unattractive women, but just those who still act like they deserve a superhuman top-tier elite man, even though they are… Read more »
I’m not defending their statements, or their crassness but I can definitely understand the anger these comments come from. Men have been told for the past 30 years that what women want are hard-working, no drama, respectful men. The reality is that a good portion (if not a majority) of younger women PARTICULARLY beautiful women, eat up: drama, manipulation, undependability (i.e. break dates), cruelty. Look at one of the most heralded romantic movies: Romancing the Stone. Michael Douglas’s character doesn’t cut the female author a break one single time for being a woman. In point of fact, he treats her… Read more »
Well, all I can do is disagree with you. If that has been your experience with women, I think that’s very sad. Maybe your description is accurate for a subset of young women age 18-23 who hang out in clubs and party a lot. The women I know are not like what you describe; even the women I hung out with in college are not like what you describe. Most of my friends got married to their college sweethearts and all of those guys are on the shy/geeky side (I was in an honors program so maybe that was a… Read more »
Jill, they are not really just generalizations, and this is speaking more based on research than my own experiences. There is some evidence that women (particularly young beautiful women) prefer jerks. https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:wdRK66Fztt8J:www.bradley.edu/academics/las/psy/facstaff/schmitt/documents/Jonason-Schmitt-2009-DarkTriad-STM.pdf+dark+triad+traits&hl=nl&gl=nl&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESheV-07ImpU5B6rK6txSZaKoAjr4c98U-sBA34EzjsumvTX6FeWoGnTfHHFuvF7etTE47A86luwST03GMWAvCjlwWwY2m4ORdyPfiEDHXoqR1cNjPruoXFbfKIsyS40wD5ptcmu&sig=AHIEtbRR1UjHzk4-3jxnmpXpl6IV7wz3Qg Clearly PUA is SO SUCCESSFUL because women DO prefer jerks. You can’t have that (women prefer jerks) be one of the main premises of a dating system and have it SUCCEED without it being true. If I were WRONG then PUA would be an utter failure. Correct? Consider it this way. Women KNOW what men like. They like beauty. So if I were to tell you that men… Read more »
John, I’ll agree with you on one point (only) if you admit it applies to both sexes. I did everything for now-ex husband. Treated him like a king. Did all the housework, cooked, cleaned, worked three part time jobs equivalent to full time) while studying full time, came home and gave him sex at least once a day, bought him everything he wanted, while his household contribution was working a few hours on the weekend and spending the rest of his time playing playstation with his mates. The only time I ever said no was when I found out he’d… Read more »
J, I was with a man like that except we had no kids and he didn’t do drugs. I never said no to him, but that didn’t stop him. A man is gonna do what he’s gonna do regardless of how he is treated. This has always been true, but men are more under heat now because women have more $$$ and dont have to put up with it as much anymore. I think that never saying no to a man is one of the worst things you can do. He’s having sex, he’s happy, why does he have to… Read more »
If men know that these supposedly good looking and particularly younger women, are all skanks into drama and manipulation, why do they continue to chase them? Why do they constantly ignore kind, caring, loving women, many of whom are also intelligent and hard working, simply because these women are only average, or God-forbid, less than average, in looks? I was a victim of this and have seen it happen to woman after woman – women who are an 11 out of 10 in personality and values, women who are highly intelligent, have good jobs, etc, who constantly get rejected by… Read more »
J: Regarding your question: Firstly, many men DO NOT know that (a great many) women particularly beautiful women think with their libidos just like men. That is why you still see men who marry beautiful women thinking he is what she wants (high-earning dutiful caring, but buckles like a belt to all of her narcissistic demands) and they are divorced 2-5 years later. PUA is really a fledgling group (at least from my view as a gen xer. It’s probably more prominent among 20-something men). MOST MEN don’t know these things. Back to your question: a woman’s job does NOT… Read more »
I’m sorry John but looks and attraction are definitely not the same thing. There is far more to physical attraction than simply looks. My first husband was ugly when I met him and even more butt ugly now, but he is charming and draws women right in. When I was good looking (an 8-9), I never had guys hitting on me because I had low self esteem – these days, I’d put my looks at around a 5, but guys ( and lesbians too) hit on my constantly. Even my fiancee can’t pretend I am mega hot, but he’s incredibly… Read more »
John, O really? Most women I know say it’s the man who is hornier. I used to think I was as horny as a man, but that’s because I really didn’t know how horny they really are. The average man is just consumed by lust. This is helpful to women bc it’s easier to get dinners, jewelry, etc out of them. A man will drop a perfectly fine girl cuz the sex isn’t right. Hmm…. Women do get lustful, but it’s mostly after a handful of alpha males (like the firefighters in one story). Whereas a man just lusts after… Read more »
Interesting point, John. Female entitlement and privilege are really out of control lately in the U.S., and anyone who dares to question or challenge it earns a hefty amount of venom, tout suite.
Arrrrgghhh! just had a long post eaten by the refresh monster.
I agree that this is a very valid reality (women’s excessive self-esteem) which never gets talked about.
John, there is a big flaw in what you are saying which is that if men don’t want to date unattractive women, why are they angry at those women for having an excessively high opinion of their own “dating market value”? Are they chasing after unattractive women and getting rejected? I doubt it. So, really, what you are saying does not explain the anger that PUA’s express towards unattractive women. No self-respecting PUA or wannabe PUA would date an unattractive women, from what I understand. Those women are simply non-entities to PUA’s. From what I have read on PUA blogs,… Read more »
To Jill: John, there is a big flaw in what you are saying which is that if men don’t want to date unattractive women, why are they angry at those women for having an excessively high opinion of their own “dating market value”? As regards why PUA boardminders would highlight and link articles (such as the MTG guy getting attacked by the woman on her blog) I would say that it is to specifically PINPOINT like a laser 1) that women are hound-dogs too and 2) prove that american women suffer from excessive self-esteem. Thus leading into negs and other… Read more »
But again, it should be a total non-issue because the PUA’s aren’t after unattractive women with undeservedly high self-esteem, they are after beautiful women who, presumably, actually have high market value so their view of their value is justifued.
and, actually, this whole discussion seems a little off because in my experience, most women are really hard on themselves and frequently feel ugly (even beautiful women)
Jill the same question goes right back to you. Why are you so occupied with what PUAs think and do? After all, bitter loser men like the PUAs (and this I am taking from the jezebel rundown of the subject) aren’t attractive to women at all, so the PUAs will just go extinct in not very long time. “and, actually, this whole discussion seems a little off because in my experience, most women are really hard on themselves and frequently feel ugly (even beautiful women)” So tell me again. Why do I read fat-positive obese feminists screaming their heads off… Read more »
I have actually never met a woman I would describe as a fat positive obese feminist — every woman I know feels stressed out about her body. Maybe you and I move in different social circles.
Or you don’t want to see what women do and don’t do.
No, I think mate, if Jill is anything like me, Jill and I genuinely move in very different circles to people like you. The majority of my female friends are both genuine Christians (so have strong morals and try to live by them) AND are highly educated and highly intelligent, and as a result, most are also highly paid. And when it comes to their looks, there is a range, but most are pretty – not model-hot, but definitely pretty. They are not looking for a man who is hot and rich. All they are looking for is a guy… Read more »
I have the address of my ex-wife. WOuld you like it?
@Jill
“I have actually never met a woman I would describe as a fat positive obese feminist — every woman I know feels stressed out about her body. Maybe you and I move in different social circles.”
Have you ever read on shakesville?
As I mentioned I think boardminders bring it up to show that even 4’s think they are a 7. So, if a man wants to date a 6 or 7 (who will most likely think she is a 9) then you have to act like you’re the hottest thing since sliced bread and knock her off of her pedestal HARD. I think the posters probably get mad because the linked stories remind them of how flighty many women have been in their life. I have seen many women get pretty riled up over stories of street harassment on this websight.… Read more »
Fundamentally, you seem disillusioned by the idea that women can have preferences and options — just like men. You don’t want to be with a woman who isn’t attractive to you, why should I, as a woman, be expected to choose a man I’m not attracted to? It’s a tough world. not that things aren’t F-ed up, I agree with you on that. But maybe you should be encouraging both men and women to make sensible relationship choices, instead of perpetuating a double standard that it’s okay for men to be hound dogs and pick women for superficial qualities, while… Read more »
Hi Jill, I don’t believe I have been perpetuating a one-sided approach to relationships–at least I hope not. Some personal things: My wife of eight years I would say is a 6.5 or so in beauty for her age. The upshot is the reason I married her is because of ALL of her. Her quirks, idiosyncracies, her redeeming qualities. The last week of August I was laid off. The following week I injured myself and tore my ACL. Basically, other than my unemployment she is supporting me–and I love her for it. I didn’t choose her solely based on attraction,… Read more »
Well Said.
I had a VERY selfish wife, and now she is gone. So much for the whole life partner thing. I am going to get back to enjoying my house and shop for new corvette, lose the weight I gained dating her, and rebuild my bank account.
I am sure there are good women out there, but they are hard to find. If it is worth having, it is worth searching / waiting.
BINGO. @JILL
Although we are living in a modern era, we forget where we came from. There is something to traditional dating and courtship. Make things simple again and don’t over-complicate everything. I work with a old-fashioned offline matchmaker in San Francisco (Amy) at a company called Linx Dating. Yeah there is an informational website but what makes this company super special is that she hand selects the good guys and good girls who are selective and simply won’t settle. I have met some great guys through Amy Andersen and suggest checking out her blog too for really good dating advice.
Doesn’t it all just come down to timing and the individuals involved? One man’s (or woman’s) trash is another man’s (or woman’s) treasure and all that? I’m in a relationship right now, with one of those “good men.” But I feel stifled and held back and, generally, like I have to be the grown-up all the time, while he lives in the land of band T-shirts with holes and plastic furniture. None of that makes him less of a “good man.” And his “good man” status makes me no more fulfilled, at the moment. Just because he’s a “good man”… Read more »
Thanks, Mike, for a male perspective on the problem that plagues both sexes. It’s good to be reminded now and again that there are just as many wandering single men as us wandering single women, trying to find good partners for the long haul.
If by ‘good man’ a woman means ‘my wage-slave and mobile AMT’ then I hope the number of good men is shrinking. Women no longer have cause to make demands of men, they have equality, they can work for their own support, own their own house, car and superannuation. Men need no longer feel they are expected to support women. So, women need to change their offer – what positive influences does a relationship with a woman bring to a man’s life? if you consider the hazards associated with marriage, and that men can do everything a woman can do… Read more »
typo I meant ATM*
Well said, Trans. Porn is cheap; who needs women?
You both are going to Die of heart attacks at 44….
I’m going to die of a heart attack because I don’t accept outdated gender roles? Who’d have though it. I don’t gauge my life based upon whether I’m married or have children; happiness is a place to live, friends, employment and free time. If I meet the right women for me then that is great but it is no tragedy if I do not.
lol mate, I think budmin might mean the porn will give you a heart attack 😉
But you’re right Trans in that relationship status doesn’t matter. Happiness doesn’t rely on having a partner and it’s annoying to see people think they can only be “complete” if they have a partner. It’s sad.
Look I don’t have any children and I rather save my money then pay for another Boyfriend job interview, but if we are being honest about what’s going on with Men
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=childlessness-may-increase
Full disclosure of all outcomes…
Note that the study only looked at MARRIED men, with infertility (a medical condition) cited as one major contributing factor.
I don’t think single and voluntarily childfree men have much to worry about in that area.
@copyleft,
At least you are honest.
Can somebody please explain to me why this is a male problem?
She will just have to suck it up and learn to live alone, just the same level of sympathy that the 30-year old male virgin gets from people like Amanda Marcotte.
And what is so wrong with a 30 year old virgin? My fiancee is one. He just has morals, doesn’t do sex outside of marriage and wanted to make sure she met the right girl before marrying her.
I know of many 30 year old virgins who are fantastic blokes and are awesome catches that will make whoever their future wife is, very happy.
I was one – well – 27 – and thought I met the right one. Married her 18 mo later and now she is gone. Guess I was wrong. I am glad you found a good man. Now, hook his friends up on a double date with you too and a cute girlfriend
lol all his good friends have been married for years…
In all seriousness though, I don’t have cute girlfriends. I have smart, kind, caring, compassionate, loyal and hard working girlfriends, but they are either average in looks, or they are beautiful but overweight and most guys I’ve found don’t think a girl is beautiful if she is overweight. Thankfully some guys do see the beauty in bigger girls, but it’s a shame that they are a minority.
It’s presented as a male problem because, to certain breed of radical feminists, ALL of women’s problems are the fault of men. Thus, the “lack of good men” is a male problem because men are generally awful and need to change.
The possibility that she’s not seeing many romantic possibilities because SHE doesn’t have much to offer… well, that simply never occurs to writers like Bolick. It must be men’s fault–somehow.
There’s fault by both genders. Women rape men AND men rape women. We who have experienced having sex against our will, that alone causes us to constantly play the blame game.The shit has happened, now we are stuck with dealing with the After Effects from either side while the media’s ignorantly blinded to the fact that in order for that foolishness to change, help the pedophile too but most importantly the victim that they may become Victorious in their struggle to change to the so-called norm
8of10 says:
“Can somebody please explain to me why this is a male problem?
She will just have to suck it up and learn to live alone, just the same level of sympathy that the 30-year old male virgin gets from people like Amanda Marcotte.”
Or her other option is to marry a man less educated and less high earning then herself. I notice that a lot of women (particularly a lot of FEMINIST women) don’t have much interest in changing gender norms when they are talking about their own lives.
I married a man who was far less educated than myself. During our marriage, he never managed to keep a job, lasting a few months at best – the only job that lasted longer was one working a few hours three nights a week, and even then he managed to lose that one. When we got married, on a looks scale, I was 8-9, he was lucky if he was a 5, probably closer to a 3. I’ll be honest – over time, due to medical issues, when we divorced I’d dropped down to around a 5 – he’s around… Read more »
Women that shallow aren’t very interesting.
Jill, I would be curious as to your response to MY post since I am essentially talking about the same thing, just from the woman’s point of view. The example of the “brutally handsome” guy that I use in my post is a natural alpha who doesn’t NEED PUA philosophy or techniques. All he needs is a shower and a decent haircut to have as much interaction of any kind with just about any woman that he wants. Ms. Bolling obviously goes for this kind of guy, as evidenced by the fact that she went out with FOUR “players”. If… Read more »
Yes, I think looks matter to women, although maybe not as much as looks matter to men. I think a lot of women are looking for a man who is the “whole package” (a combination of good looks, smarts, success, and other so-called alpha male qualities) whereas men are perhaps more focused solely in looks, but I agree, women can be pretty shallow in their choices as well.
Jill, Consider how much more money and time women spend on THEIR looks vs. the amount of money and time that straight men spend on theirs, and then tell me that looks matter more to men.
firstly, SOME women spend so much time on their looks because they know that it’s all most men care about.
Secondly, that’s an unfair stereotype. Most women I know spend very little time on their looks – no makeup, don’t shave their legs/underarms etc. I personally don’t bother with makeup unless for special occasions although I do shave when my fiancee is in town. But regardless of how long my friends do or don’t spend on their looks, the majority of their straight partners spend a lot more time.
I meant that, when picking a partner, women (as a general rule) care less about how men look, than men care about how women look.
Jill, Thanks for your reply! I have to respectfully disagree with you though. I’m glad that your female friends have the sense not to spend their hard earned dough on so many potions, powders, and treatments, but there is no comparable multi-billion dollar industry for straight men. Compare the services and products sold in a salon, versus a barbershop, and there is NO comparison. The amount of money that women in general spend on clothing is much greater than that spent by men, and the clothes are a lot more expensive to boot. Beauty pageants for straight men? No such… Read more »
No, I disagree, actually he says that women in their late 30’s-40’s are “chronic complainers,” have too much baggage, are usually not attractive, are not the intellectual equals of men, and basically are unhappy because they didn’t use their vaginas effectively to snag a man (or keep him, I guess) when they still had market value. He claims women don’t mature intellectually or emotionally as they age. He seems to say that any man in his 30’s-50’s who would date a woman over the age of 30 must be a pathetic and desperate loser. As a 44-year-old woman, I find… Read more »
Sorry, I mean to reply to r(Evoluzione), above.
Ask yourself why they might hate women, seeing as it’s for a culture of picking up women and having casual sex quite a lot, I’d hazard a guess that many of them have been burned in love and are bitter over it. Seen just as many women burned n bitter like an overcooked fish. There are quite a lot of men though who are shy as hell and need help in engaging conversation with women, they use PUA material because it seems to work. If it didn’t work, then it wouldn’t be used. So it seems some women are rewarding… Read more »
I agree, PUA has some useful advice about how to interact wirh women. It’s not the advice that offends me — even stuff like “negging” can be used in a way that is light and funny rather than mean and hurtful. If it is done in a hurtful way, it probably won’t work. It’s the underlying hostility to women that bothers me in PUA writings and blogs, the many derogatory assumptions that PUA’s make about women, and the idea that women are virtually non-sentient automatons who can be easily manipulated by pressing X, Y or Z emotional buttons. There is… Read more »
“—and those who remain are leering by the cheese table, or are, you know, the ones you don’t want to go out with.” And why doesn’t Bollick want to go out with these guys? Simple, it’s the way that they LOOK. Their personality, intelligence, and moral character have nothing to do with why she wouldn’t consider them as a love interest. And that is this root cause of this whole dilemma, which I was surprised to find nowhere in this discourse. The “ leagues” thing where men and women are sorted into a hierarchy by appearance? Absolutely true, especially with… Read more »
I find the article to be total rubbish. I have never been a player or a deadbeat. Yet in the four years of being single between losing my first husband and finding my second husband-to-be, I did not find a single guy who even made it to getting a first date (other than the wonderful man I’m marrying). And both now, and before I became single again, I have always loved to play cupid and find partners for my friends, and have always kept an eye out for nice single men for many wonderful single female friends. The reality is,… Read more »
“Don’t get me wrong – there aren’t very many nice single women either. But my experience over and over, is most guys don’t care if a girl is a bitch as long as she looks hot. A good woman is hard to find, a good man? is beyond rare.” Reminds me of most girls not caring if a guy is a jerk if he’s rolling in cash. But that’s a generalization and there’s no proof of either. You’re a woman, of course you will see more good women because you know better what a good woman is. It’s the same… Read more »
Ok, this site keeps crashing every time I try to post a long answer so I’ll go for shorter. If you read my posts, you’d see I HAVE a fiancee now. I have found the one rose among the thorns. If you knew anything about religion, you’d know that those who genuinely follow certain religions, christianity being one of them, you cannot be a genuine christian and be with a partner who is not. Faith doesn’t make a person good, nor does lack of faith make a person bad, but in my experience of getting to know (as friends to… Read more »
Should have typed, I didn’t like those kind of guys when I was in my 20’s, but I did end up dating some of them, short term (I realize that sounded imconsistent)
You will find excellent counterpoint analysis to some of the more conventional thoughts on this subject, from a thoughtful, masculine, rationalist point of view here:
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/the-mature-man/
Mike (OP), your thoughts on this article would be appreciated.
wow, the author of that article really seems to hate women. Why so much anger at “older” women? If you don’t like them, don’t date them. Or maybe it should be like Logan’s Run and all women should be shot on their 30th birthdays? Honestly, this whole discussion including the original Atlantic article seems totally outside my own experience. I am 44 and not married, but in a happy relationship. I know women who are single and others who are married. I know women who are divorced. Everyone has their struggles and their successes. We don’t sit around and moan… Read more »
Jill, where’s the hate? My reading of his words finds no hate, no ad-hominem attacks, no slanderous phrasing–nothing like that. He even says older women can be hot and engaging. If there’s no hate in the article, and there isn’t, then you must be using the ‘hate’ card as a way to shame men into identifying with the feminine agenda. Which is exactly what Rollo described. Irony? Yes. Surprising? No. Try engaging intellectually. Come at him, me, us men in general, as equals, instead of with emotion and shaming tactics. Guess what? “You question women, thus you must hate them”… Read more »
Low sex ratio societies = “playa” men
High sex ratio societies = “mensch” men
Low sex ratio societies (which we’re becoming) are characterized, however by more female-set norms, hence much of the criticism here (plus the writhings of Hugo.) High sex ratio societies are more patriarchal. Women are treated better in high sex ratio societies. Hence in low sex ratio societies they may go to feminist rallies during the day, and date an immature twerp at night.
Dunn relates that he spent five years in “low sex-ratio societies”, by which he means women outnumbered men, the situation Kate Bolick found herself in. Single men and women are not distributed evenly over the surface of the earth, yet the situation of men who live and work in communities where there are few available women gets little attention in the pages of Atlantic, or GMP for that matter. Such situations are all too often treated as humorous by people who don’t have to live in them. Maybe Dunn and Bolick should take a trip to one of those areas… Read more »
Exactly. Kate Bollick, (and any other womenz who need a man to ‘wife up’) get thee to Summit County, Colorado, where there are 175 single men for every 100 single woman. Prolly one of the most whacked out gender ratios anywhere in the US. You will be treated like the hot commodity that you believe you are, because the ladies are rare, and there are many many dudes. Bros. Lotsa Sausage up in there. Oh, but I forgot, it’s COLD up there. (whine, grumble) Like, snow and ice and stuff. (whine, moan) and all the boys up there spend all… Read more »
Why don’t you join one of the many theater groups and programs around the country, then? Lots of cooter everywhere. The ratios (especially when you have to bring homosexual men into the equation) are ridiculously in the favor of straight men. But no. It’s too girly and gay. Too many weird costumes and words to memorize…and stuff (whine, moan). Too feminine. How am I supposed to show off how big, burly, and bro-like I am without my snowboard (I’m a skiier, so I had to put in that one last jab 🙂 )?
Actually, I’m involved with a couple of modern dance companies, as an advisor on fitness. You’re right, this field is parched for the drink of liquid refreshment that is heterosexual masculinity. I’m literally hounded with dozens of lithe, young dancers–“cooter,” as you said. Quality, it is. Yes, it is tough, hazardous duty. But I will take one (or a few) for Team Bro on this one.
That’s really cool, and sounds like a lot of fun, actually, and I’m glad you’re enjoying it. I thought you were complaining that you were in a place with a high male to female ratio. I’m not into (or too familiar with) Prada, Bros, or modern dance, so I’m a bit out of my element on this one. Tap that bass! I’m referring to your fishing as well as…ass. ^.^
Aya, I don’t live in Summit County. When I did, I still found no problem dating. I visit there often.
“Tap that bass! I’m referring to your fishing as well as…ass. ^.^”
Cute! I like your sass.
Mrs. Bolick forgot something very important- successful men oftentimes are not looking for a woman her age. They may be 35,45 but they are looking at women 18 and up. Men who are very successful a lot of times are not looking for their mirror image, they want someone to complement them. Similarly, it seems like some very successful women have house husbands. I’m sure their are men, just not looking for her. If we’re looking at so called equality, count me out. I’ll live my life happily the my dogs and get a career. I have noticed that white… Read more »
Alice, you again seem to have the curious notion that ANY relationship should inevitably lead to either marriage or separation. Why is that? Surely you concede that that a one-size-fits-all model isn’t compatible with reality.
Copyleft,
I understand that not every relationship is going to lead to that, but I wouldn’t waste my time. If I am going to deal with men, the relationship has to go somewhere, otherwise I’m fine on my own. I’m not the kind of girl who’d let a man waste 3,4,5 years of my time.
I guess it’s also cuz I know that if a man is really smitten, he’s gonna propose. And when they do, they usually move pretty quickly.
Ya. I never understood this concept of everything has to lead somewhere. Ultimately everything leads to death. You will die Alice and then your relationship will end. Why is your time wasted if you don’t get married. Under your logic why is men’s time not wasted if they don’t get married.
I have had fantastic relationships with women that never led to marriage. I never felt like my time was wasted. I just felt incredibly lucky.
The men get what they want, so they are OK. But like I said, if I am going to go through the hassle of being with a man, I’d like it to lead somewhere. And lets be real, a lot of times when a man wont commit he just not that into a woman. For example, I dated a guy who was with a girl on and off for 10 years, and proposed to me in 6 months. Why should I waste my time on someone who will hump n dump me for years and years? And lets face it,… Read more »
Why should men waste their time on someone that values an expensive ceremony so much that she doesn’t view any relationship that doesn’t lead to marriage as valid? The assumptions men simply want to hump n dump you because they don’t propose is as childish as men assuming women just want men to pay because of the actions of the few. If the guy doesn’t want to marry you after 10 years, either marriage doesn’t matter to him, or the problem is YOU as much as him. And since you want marriage so much, did you accept the proposal? Or… Read more »
Well said, Jun, but Alice is firmly in the “men are selfish” camp and won’t listen to any other viewpoint.
More and more women in middle age are find that MEN are now the one saying “Relationships are too much of a hassle; why should I waste my time on you?” And believe me, revenge is sweeeeet.
This article is very even sided, I don’t where people are getting the idea that it’s not, either way. Bolick’s original article seemed far more against women than this one. She completely didn’t take into account that women can, and often enjoy being players and that many don’t *need* marriage as much as she does. And when men do it too, it’s also fine. Who says marriage is necessary? Women no longer need to get married at 18 to get out of their dad’s houses. Many men are perfectly happy being bachelors. Not everyone is ready for or wants marriage… Read more »
I also think that her uses of “deadbeat” and “player” were far too simplistic and somewhat insulting. As Dunn says, most men are at different points of their lives deadbeats, players, and good men. What constitutes a deadbeat in this economy anyways? A guy could have a great education but have lost his job due to layoffs and fallen on hard times. He could also have been a player in his early 20s, then got the lifestyle out of his system/gotten bored with it, and decided to wan to get married. He could have been a guy pining for love… Read more »
“We can’t all be put into these neat categories of ‘player,’ ‘deadbeat,’ ‘good man,’ or ‘woman.’ ”
Exactly. I contain multitudes.
Today’s progressive dating landscape????? If that were true, most dating experts would tell couples to share expenses throughout their dating relationship, they would tell both women and men to approach each other, they would advocate a single standard of sexual ethics and so on. However, most dating experts strongly advocate The Rules. Annie Gleason, Nina Atwood and a huge majority of dating experts and relationship coaches tell the women not to ask a man out until the relationship is established (whatever that means), they tell the man to always pay, they tell the women not to have sex on the… Read more »
If it’s any comfort to you, men are equally disgusted with such archaic and dishonest advice. Equality means that women should shoulder half the burden if they want an equal share of the freedoms and benefits. That means no retreating into the “take care of me, I’m a special and pampered princess” role when dating.
Maybe you should look up some _male_ dating experts for a different perspective.
I concur with previous comments about this being a balanced article. You covered a lot of ground, and with sensitivity and thought. Which is to say, no one was offended except for the screeching feminists who would be offended by anything less than total prostration at their feet, a la Schwyzer. His last couple articles take shots at guys who date younger women, and at the same time, glorify older women who date younger men. The original Atlantic article, and your article here, go a long way to explain why Schwyzer is full of the male bovine post-digestive metabolites; the… Read more »
Please apologize for your “screeching feminists” comment. Very abusive.
Certainly, my comment was not more abusive than the sarcastic ‘male privelege’ commenter for whom my mention was meant for. “Very abusive” is hyperbole.
“The general consensus in my rather large circle of mid-30′s + men, some of whom are single, married, divorced, or widowed, is that if a woman isn’t married by 30, or at the latest, 35, then there’s something in her makeup, like Bollick’s, that is not amenable to marriage, else she would have been by now. It’s not for a lack of offers” Your circle of men has a male chauvinistic double standard. They never said that if a man isn’t married by 30, or at the least, 35, then there is something in HIS makeup that is not amenable… Read more »
“Your circle of men has a male chauvinistic double standard. They never said that if a man isn’t married by 30, or at the least, 35, then there is something in HIS makeup that is not amenable to marriage, else he would have been by now.” Au contraire, my dear Kate. The men in question have all either been married & divorced, or, in my case, made the attempt & got engaged. In almost every case, the woman involved pulled a Kate Bollick, and called things off. This squares with the divorce statistics on the books–70%+ of divorces are initiated… Read more »
revolutionize,
Thank you, this is what i was getting at. Kate probably isnt marriage material unless she’s going to marry down.
I’ll keep it real and say that if I were a successful 35 year old man I would go nowhere near Kate. I think sometimes women confuse being successful with being wife material.
I usually counsel my female friends that if a man in his late thirties of later has never been married, he’s not a good bet. Too many have retained their basketball buddies, are used to the dating scene (which is basically pathology), or are players.
So what if he’s been married & divorced, or engaged but broke off the engagement?
Also, from the looks of your avatar, you are a baby boomer; if so, your experiences are less than relevant here due to the vast social change that has ensued since you were in your dating years.
What a bunch of rubbish stereotypes. At 29, I was single and could count the number of boyfriends I had on one hand. Admittedly I had been married for 8 years and was therefore off the table during that time, but I was single again… I don’t get the point of men or women who date lots – if a man isn’t marriage material, then simply don’t date him in the first place. And a man in his 30s who has never been married can definitely be marriage material. My wonderful fiancee not only has not been married, but he’s… Read more »