Pornography, Robert Jensen writes, can dramatically decrease a man’s capacity for empathy.
Usually I address my writing about pornography to men, who are the majority of the consumers of sexually explicit material. But after a recent conversation with a female friend, I was reminded of how often women who raise concerns about the sexism of pornography are discounted as being overly sensitive, prudish, or unable to see things objectively. Since I’m a man, you can be assured, of course, that I am not overly sensitive or prudish, and that I’m completely objective.
So, if you are a woman who is struggling to get your husband/boyfriend/partner to understand your concerns about pornography, I suggest you send this essay to him with a note at the top that says, “It’s not just women who think pornography is sexist.” Then add a note at the bottom that says, “You shouldn’t have had to hear it from a man to take me seriously.”
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First, to be clear: Everything I know about pornography I learned from women or discovered because of the feminism I learned from women. From the feminist anti-pornography movement that emerged in the 1970s and ‘80s, I learned to critique the system of male dominance and my own place in it. So, there is little that is original in this essay, but much that is important to keep saying.
When I present the radical feminist critique of pornography in public, I am often approached afterward by women with some version of this question:
“My husband/boyfriend/partner wants me to do [fill in the blank with a sex practice that causes pain, discomfort, or distress for the woman]. I love him, and I want to be a good partner. Should I do it?”
The “it” can be anything, but common requests include ejaculating on her face, anal sex, a threesome with another man or woman, rough sex, or roleplaying that feels inauthentic to her. Again, not all women reject those practices, but for many they are unwanted.
The answer to the question, “Should I do it?” is simple: No one has an obligation to another person, no matter what level of commitment in a relationship, to participate in any sexual activity that causes pain, discomfort, or distress. People can discuss desires honestly and be open to sexual exploration, yet be clear about what crosses the line and is not acceptable.
Because I’m a man, women sometimes assume I can also provide a simple answer to their next question, “Why does he want to do that to me?” There is a simple, though not pleasant, answer rooted in feminism: In patriarchy, men are socialized to understand sex in the context of men’s domination and women’s submission. The majority of the pornography that saturates our hyper-mediated lives presents not images of “just sex,” but sex in the context of male dominance. And over the past two decades, as pornography has become more easily accessible online and the sexual acts in pornography have become more extreme, women increasingly report that men ask them to participate in sex acts that come directly from the conventional male-supremacist pornographic script, with little recognition by men of the potential for pain, discomfort, or distress in their women partners.
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The third, and most challenging, question is: “Why can’t he understand why I don’t want that?” The strength of sexual desire plays a role, but here the answer is really about the absence of empathy, the lack of an ability to imagine what another human being might be feeling. Pornography has always presented women as objectified bodies for male sexual pleasure, but each year pornography does that with more overt cruelty toward women. The “gonzo” genre of pornography, where the industry pushes the culture’s limits with the most intense sexual degradation, encourages men to see women as vehicles for their sexual pleasure, even depicting women as eager to participate in their own degradation.
After more than two decades of work on this subject, I have no doubt of one truth about contemporary pornography: It is one way that men’s capacity for empathy can be dramatically diminished.
To make this point in talks to college and community audiences, I often suggest that, “Pornography is what the end of the world looks like.” By that I don’t mean that pornography is going to bring about the end of the world, nor do I mean that of all the social problems we face, pornography is the most threatening. Instead, I mean that pornography encourages men to abandon empathy, and a world without empathy is a world without hope.
This is why pornography matters beyond its effects in our private lives. Empathy is not itself a strategy for progressive social change, but it is difficult to imagine people being motivated to work for progressive social change if they have no capacity for empathy. Politics is more than empathy, but empathy matters. Empathy is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the work that challenges the domination/subordination dynamic of existing hierarchies, and transcending that dynamic is crucial if there is to be a just and sustainable future.
For women who want to communicate their need for sexual integrity to partners, and for men who want to transcend the pornographic imagination and empathize with their partners, the feminist critique offers a critique of male dominance and a vision of equality that can help. Instead of turning away from the unpleasant realities about how pornography is made, rather than ignoring the inhumanity of the images, rather than minimizing the effects of men’s use of pornography—we should face ourselves and face the culture we are creating.
As long as we turn away from that task, the pornographers will continue to profit. We need ask what their profits cost us all.
—Photo Clownhouse III/Flickr
I think pornography is too strong a force for some, especially introverted young single people. Lumping all pornography together and saying it is bad seems a bit like a witch hunt; I believe there may be a middle road. For example, the website Make Love Not Porn shows pornographic videos of real couples having sex, and the couples supposedly show more empathy and intimacy in their sexual interactions. There are also a few major pornographic production companies trying to make videos with actors/actresses whose interactions are more empathetic/intimate (e.g., Wow Girls). I think that saying all pornography as bad is… Read more »
Hi, now that the world is at the end, I have the duty to reveal things about porn. One of the first things I have to tell you is that porn makes you go blind. My grandpa used to say it, the minute I grabbed it’s magazine box under the bed. Man, the old man got so pissed off that he’d kick my ass. Other thing to say about porn is that it delays your spiritual evolution. I know it because when I see it I get cramps and spirituality goes byebye… what I mean is that I say a… Read more »
If you are ” a woman who is struggling to get your husband/boyfriend/partner to understand your concerns about pornography, I suggest you make a deal with him that you will get rid of your sex toy collection if he stops watching porn. That might not convince him but at least you won’t be a hypocrite in asking him to do something you’re not willing to do.
Eric, no problem. I get the impression that women are less attached to their sex toys then a lot of men seem to be toward porn. But that’s just my opinion.
Frankly, I think there’s a huge difference in men that are old enough that porn wasn’t mainstream and acceptable like it has become in the past 10 years or so and men who “grew up” feeling like porn is an acceptable part of life. I think that in the majority of cases, men who look at porn aren’t really that much different than men who don’t. I think it’s insulting to most men to assume they somehow see porn scenarios and think everyday women should be and will accept being treated this way. But men who are younger and less… Read more »
If porn was produced in a society in which men and women were truly equals, it probably wouldn’t be so rife with fetishized abuse. In case anyone still hasn’t noticed, we do not live in a society in which men and women are equals. Women’s bodies are treated as decorations and only two countries that I know of have bothered to do anything about it (thanks, Denmark and Norway!) As a sex-positive feminist, it really saddens me that it’s hard for me to take other sex-positive feminists at face value. How many of us have simply adopted the dominant message/norm?… Read more »
Sometimes I’m suspicious of the “don’t like” faction here (Jensen – some of the commenters.) Most of porn is degrading, no argument there. But some like Jensen I think are building on a childhood foundation of what’s “dirty” etc. This gets intellectualized as anti-sexism, but the shame-language betrays its roots. Our society has done incredible injury to children around sex.
The previous post says it perfectly. Good job, heluva, you fell directly into the grave propaganda has been digging for you. There is no gray area, only black and white. However, that doesn’t mean black and white can’t be decided upon on an individual basis. Plenty of females I know don’t mind at all if their boyfriend/husband watching porn, goes to strip clubs, etc. Hell, are we forgetting a whole movement of people dubbed swingers? It is a damn good thing we don’t all like the same things because there would be insane competition for mates. My point is that… Read more »
I agree Alyssa, I have no idea why men or women stay in monogamous relationships with partners who refuse to be GGG or negotiate with them at all to ensure that his/her sexual needs are being met. I certainly have no tolerance for it.
Oh, no. Another anti-porn crusader telling us male behavior is wrong! Why can’t a man be more like a woman? Vomit.
What seems sadly evident in these comments is how far we drift from what the topic of the article is about, which, I believe is that we seem to be losing the state of empathy with each other. Everyone should have a chair at the table, the big, Round Table. Everyone then gets to express their perspectives, with attentive respect to one another, and the council of humanity ponders all things said. There are two equal parts of humanity, male and female. What seems to be happening in our society, is a extreme polarity between the two, with masculinity being… Read more »
Thank you. I think that you and I are the only two people here who actually read it and understood what he said.
My complaint is that there’s no actual evidence of this claimed loss of empathy. Anyone can make a random claim but it’s worthless without evidence.
Regarding evidence here’s a SciAm article that’s relevant and doesn’t indicate any problems.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-sunny-side-of-smut
This article took a complex topic and turned it into a simplistic treatise based on personal experience and entirely unsupported by factual evidence.
Are there sexist stereotypes in porn? Yes. Is this inherently the fault of porn or due to something else? Who knows, wasn’t investigated or discussed.
Some guys pressure women and get ideas from watching porn. Is this also an inherent fault of porn, a reflection of societal prejudices or due to other facts? No idea, but apparently porn dramatically decreases empathy. BTW who said that and what study did they do to prove the hypothesis?
Unimpressed.
Actually I think that political correctness is what the end of the world looks like. It’ll be like 1984 with Playstations.
Jensen and Tim Wise, especially in their writing about race, make class less important than race/gender. My belief is that oppression stems from disguised class relations more than any other factor. Rigid moralism by people who profit off of it in spades is annoying.
I don’t know Henry. Before you have classes you have race and gender. It’s a more raw discrimination then class if you ask me. And I see less people profiting from rigid moralism then I see people profiting from extreme exploitation of others.
I think the original emphasis on class made race and gender important for the first time. The Egyptians and others made competition among the powerless important. The Indo-Eurpoeans (the first horse users) did this too. They had the first highly patriarchal religion. Soon Judaism (the first patriarchal religion with a sole male god) went them one better. Everything feminine (or non-Jewish) was wrong.
And what about the significant percentage of women who also enjoy porn?
Don’t get me wrong. 50% of porn is degrading to women and I don’t personally enjoy that. But there is a lot of porn that celebrates the human body and portrays loving intimate relationships.
Nearly all “straight” porn is degrading to women. Don’t pretend it’s halfsies: you and I both know that’s being way too generous.
Frankly, I think porn is a tool that could be used for good, but the producers are lazy and the actors and actresses are often too rigid: have you seen Mia and Tristan in “the Art of Sex”? Watch it. THAT is porn that I honestly think is amazing.
Gay and lesbian porn have the same themes Marie so you are just hetro-male phobic.
And FFS, feminists go out and change the world, start up porn studios, create things, replace all the stuff that men have made. Do it, instead of nagging men and complaining.
I don’t think it’s condusive to the topic to say things like “gay and lesbian porn does it too!” implying that it’s wrong to talk about the unique situation that is hetro male interested porn. While this site is open to all genders and does address certain gay and lesbian issues, for the most part it seems to me that it has more of a hetro following. i also do not think the answer to porn is more porn. Even when created by women. Men are not going to start watching movies made for women by women and your going… Read more »
I don’t know about that Erin. I have found and disseminated porn I found and liked that was not at all typical of standard porn. My male friends thanked me for it and told me how hard it had been for them to locate good porn. My favorite stuff isn’t easy to find by typing terms into Google or Bing. It’s not easy to find and the Internet is flooded with crap.
Men have the porn they want. Porn makers aren’t making porn that no one is buying or looking at. That would make no sense at all.
Yes and no. The fact is, the internet is allowing for a lot more variety and fetish porn to be available. The market is following what viewers want. That said, men do appreciate good porn and are receptive to it.
I generally agree with Jensen’s article. It’s concise, well-written and courageous. I have often wondered if The Good Men Project is pro-pornography or takes a wimpy “it’s such a complex issue” stance. But Jensen’s article shows that at least some people in The Good Men Project are willing to acknolwedge that pornography perpetuates male dominance. Some people thought Jensen’s analysis was too black-and-white but sometimes, the truth is black-and-white. Pornography degrades women and is a huge sexual turn off. I know so many women who didn’t want to have sex with their partners anymore because of pornography. A friend told… Read more »
Same is true of women who conclude that their husbands can’t make them come nore are the romantic enough once the get used to a sex toy with 10 controls who reads steamy unrealistic romance novels and magazines.
Alright, because I am a “do-it-herself” kind of girl, here’s a blog post on this topic by sex-positive feminist, Liandra Dahl: I was listening to the JJJ, an Australian radio station the other day and I heard Gail Dines, pre-eminent anti-porn feminist proclaiming all the horrors that porn causes for the women who love the men who love it. In her own words Dine’s said “men are asking their partners for ejaculation on the face, group sex and anal sex” and I immediately thought “So?”. First off what is the harm in asking? Secondly, I have asked for all those… Read more »
I think that there can be great erotica. For example, I can think of scenes where someone gives another a great bout of cunnilingus or a blowjob for minutes on end, slowly. The participants are clearly aroused, and the scene is artfully photographed. I think the degradation stuff is clearly a signifier for compensation for powerlessness, and reflects on the degradation of women and men in modernity, which is increasing all the time now. It’s a miracle that some good erotica is mixed in with this stuff. I think the way out is not to blame one or another gender,… Read more »
As I pointed out, you don’t see near the same level of critcism from feminists who criticize men for porn use when women do essentially the same things. Instead they are congratulated by these same feminists. Which shows that their criticism is more about negative feelings toward men than genuine abhorrance of the behavior.
When will we see an article from feminists that deals with this same issue with respect to women’s use of steamy books, magazines, etc. and sex toys (outside the presence of their partner) for sexual satisfaction? Somehow the female version of this very same issue is glorified as women embracing their independence, not needing a man for sexual pleasure and satisfaction. Why do feminists consider it good when women do it bad horrific when do the same thing? There doesn’t seem to be a valid (non-prejudiced / unbiased) reason for this as I’ve asked this question several times here without… Read more »
We wont see that article because the soft core porn/chick lit genre is dubbed the “bodice ripper”, and as the name indicates, it’s mainly about women being “convinced” and “ravaged” and basically succumbing to “soft rape”…..all the things feminists apparently find horrifying as real life prospects but acceptable as wank fodder….go figure
As for not needing a man for pleasure….maybe women dont….but we sure do buy a lot of c*ck shaped sex toys dont we?
If women, OR men, are feeling pressure from their partner to do something that they aren’t willing to do, and the pressuring partner continues to apply the pressure……it’s a problem of communication, not pornography ffs. The OP only cites some acts that are in general considered taboo – anal, cumming on a face, 3somes, ‘rough’ sex and role play. AND, the OP only discusses when women feel pressured, nary a word about when a man does. Further, the OP basically states that if men can ‘transcend’ porn, they’ll be better human beings…..wtf? Im a woman who likes porn….do I also… Read more »
I wish I could give you more than one thumbs up.
Lol….ty
Natasha
Society expects men to want sex all the time. So society is forcing men to have have sex, women get angry when men say no. Its actually debatable whether men ever have consensual sex in this society, far more so than it is for women, whos consent is endlessly agonized over, a mans consent with a woman never gets a mention.
“Its actually debatable whether men ever have consensual sex in this society, far more so than it is for women, whos consent is endlessly agonized over, a mans consent with a woman never gets a mention.”
Actually, I get this as a concept…men are always expected to be “ready” and when/if you’re not, then there must be something wrong with you….but if a woman is always “ready” she’s a whore….as a species, we are a complete sexual mess.
You just won this post. It seems that when it comes to porn as soon as you mention men and porn all the possibilities go out the door and it becomes a matter of “what’s wrong with him for liking that stuff?”.
And really the end of the world? I wonder if the folks that go “ugh” over the idea of a “boy crisis”/”war on men”/etc… are as off put by this?
We are put off by it. D.H. Lawrence, in works like “The Man Who Died” and “Lady Chatterley’s Lover” couldn’t come up wih prose as demagogically purple as Jensen’s little ‘end of the world’ screed.
Again, he didn’t say porn was ending the world, just that the lack of empathy shown in it is what he thinks the end of the world would be like: who cares if it hurts someone else so long as you’re satisfied. It’s a comment on the dog-eat-dog mentality that’s also dragged up as an “end of society as we know it” talk
Asking is great, but no one should feel pressured to do anything they don’t like. Sometimes people need encouragement to try something new, but if they say they have tried it and didn’t like it, or if the idea of the requested activity really bothers them, then I think you either have to respect that or look for someone else.
Unless Dan Savage showed up while I wasn’t paying attention, nobody here has said anything different.
(Okay, that was unfair. Still, I think we need a middle ground between “good, giving and game” and “that’s horrible, and you’re horrible for wanting it.”)
Wow. This conversation is so played out and tired at this point.
Then don’t join in DaddyFiles. Sheesh. I hate when people clearly read articles then whine about how “played out” it is. You don’t like It? There are plenty of other articles for you to read on here.
Erin some people do tire of the never ending shaming of man, masculinity and male sexuality on this site. Its just as well that some men come here to stand up for themselves.
(Aaron I know you are a writer here and not an MRA)
Personally Trev, if you really want to talk about “shaming”, then look at all the ways porn shames men and women for their real sexuality. If you *really* want to talk about “shaming”, lets talk about all the names we find in porn that describe women in completely negative terms. Why don’t guys ever seem to want to talk about that? If you *really* want to talk about shaming, lets talk about the projection of male dominance over women in porn. Are we really going to say that porn encourages good healthy relationships with women? That it’s sensitive to women’s… Read more »
I appreciate the comments, and the obvious passion behind them. “Why don’t guys ever seem to want to talk about [negative words about women in porn]?” Well, let’s talk about it. From what I’ve seen, porn hasn’t invented any language (with the possible exception of “milf” – not sure where that came from exactly). The derogatory language is used as it is used within our larger cultural setting. Porn is a microcosm of our culture, it reflects and focuses only those attitudes towards sexuality because all it deals with is sexuality. So words like “bitch” and “cunt” and “whore” are… Read more »
Good job Tomio!
“Is it the end of the world (as the article claims)?”
… he didn’t say it was the end of the world, actually, he clarified that the kind of lack-of-empathy that is shown in porn is how he sees what the end of the world, or society, would look comparatively as far as the lack of emotional connection or empathy for fellow-human.
Tomio, you talked about how porn didn’t invent the words used. Actually, porn *has* invented some quite color language and ways to describe mainly women. Some really vile, disgusting ways. I can think of one word particularly that I don’t even want to say, but the general idea was that a woman’s body was completely nothing but relatable to how a person would throw something away in a garbage can. Further, you seem to be insinuating that because porn didn’t invent all the bad language used, then it’s okay that porn does use such language and that men are excited… Read more »
Well Erin, you’ve inspired me. I’m gonna start watching more porn so I can find this degrading behavior towards women. I’m visiting PornHub, which according to the authors of A Billion Wicked Thoughts is the most popular porn site for men. I’ll watch the first thing that pops up on home page for next few days. Tonight I watched my first one. It was of a very attractive dark-haired woman with natural breasts giving head to a man with a nice, 7-8 inch cock. She deep-throated him a few times and gagged a bit…but, you know, I understand that happens… Read more »
Jeni, other then the fact that I personally find something a little suspicious in your response to my post driving you to watch a porno for the very first time ever, despite being able to off handily site a popular porn site based on a book you read titled “A Billion Wicked Thoughts”, despite being a regular commenter (if you are the same Jeni) on porn related topics, I’m okay with not everyone agreeing with me. But I have to say the way you described the porno was more like two people having friendly tea and crumpets. And in my… Read more »
Erin, it’s not my first time watching porn. I’ve watched porn on PornHub and Youporn before…just not in a number of months. I just finished reading A Billion Wicked Thoughts (I read a lot about sex as it is one of my passions in life) so it was at hand. They have some great tables, etc. illustrating their research. The video I just described was not one of my favorites but it was one featured on their landing page. I could start searching for terms I like such as gangbangs, DP, and female ejaculation. That might make it more interesting… Read more »
Oh okay, I thought you were saying that was the first time you watched porn. Most guys don’t even dispute with me that a lot of porn out there is not kind to women. They just will say things like “it’s fantasy”. So because it’s fantasy, these negative projections of women are apparently aokay. I’ve also done the same experiment..Googled “porn” to see what came up and I personally couldn’t really see one positve example. *shrug*. It’s no big secret we have different ideas on this so I think we are going to have to slide our Joan of Arc… Read more »
In other words, Erin, you’ve decided porn is wrong, ergo it is damaging, instead of establishing that it’s damaging, ergo it’s wrong. I guess I should concede Plato was right about the Sophists after all. By the by, I’d venture to say most men who view porn actually **don’t** want women of your ilk to like it and wouldn’t care about what uou think about it, if it weren’t for your febrile public moralizing about it. We men know we’ll never be good enough for you. What would be the point of trying? Life is far too short to expend… Read more »
S Gallo, it was interesting to me that you said, “we men know we’ll never be good enough for you.” It’s a raw open comment. And it’s directness gets to the heart of the matter. How both men and women don’t feel they meet expectations placed on them by the opposite gender. Don’t you think that there are regular women everywhere coming to the same conclusion when faced with the kind of images men perceive to be turn ons about women? These women are getting older and going through the daily drudgery that sometimes is life and they see their… Read more »
Erin
Its not that I don’t want to talk about shaming full stop. I just don’t want to be constantly assaulted with feminist issues on a mens publication when I know full well that equality is its a one way street with feminists, all take and no give. On the other hand if you were talking about repealing VAWA and replacing it services that men and their children could use too and shared parenting, instead of supporting discriminatory laws, I have more time for it.
Right Erin. If men are so much as allowed to look at sexual images of highly attractive women, that by implication is “shaming” women. I swear, Erin, for all the verbosity of your postings, they all boil down to one thing: allowing men to have sexual options or even their own inner sexual life independent of a partner is a terrible thing for women. It is massive insecurity translated into sexual politics. You have the right to your fears and insecurities if you wish to cling to them. However, I think that men should not feel under any moral obligation… Read more »
Iamcuriousblue, I think there is even a bit of shaming women in things like Cosmo. They backhandily try to sell the image that it’s there for it’s female readers, that it gets them, inbetween selling images of youthful 25 year olds promoting anti-wrinkle creams and clothes. Are all images of highly attractive women “shaming” toward women? No. But with a product like porn, how can you not see the shame placed on women through it? The women in porn are the fantasy, they are over the top, and they are often described in terms of just their body parts or… Read more »
The radical movements of the 60s-70s could have ended puritanism. Actually they did for a while among young people on the coasts. Unfortunately, these movements were hijacked by radical feminism (people like Dworkin and McKinnon.) While much feminism is appropriately sex-positive, the radical feminist point of view is sex negative and essentialist about gender. Men = bad; women = good. Jensen (yes, I read his book on porn, and his book on race) reifies gender in a bad way. I agree that much of porn as we know it does emphasize facial ejaculation, disporportionate amounts of anal intercourse, bukkake, gang… Read more »
It looks as if GMP felt the need to put this up in the name of “balance” to the more porn-positive articles that have been posted here as of late. But what this adds to the discussion is not so clear. Like so much of Jensen’s writing, this is merely a series of strong assertions posing as an argument, underpinned by a more or less fundamentalist adherence to the ideology of antiporn radical feminism. If your sexuality stands outside of that set of ideological proscriptions, Jensen claims, your very capacity for empathy will die. In his capacity for hyperbole, Jensen… Read more »
Radical feminist critiques are usually pretty laughable, and the critique of pornography is no different. The more rigorous social sciences (economics, sociology, psychology) recognize that making a claim such as “pornography decreases men’s capacity for empathy,” needs to be backed up with hard empirical data including statistical analysis to demonstrate that correlation is not being confused with causation. But in the silly world of Gender Studies, we need not bother with proof! The claim alone is proof enough! The fact that there is an ongoing correlation both across time (1980s to today) and across countries (comparing Japan to its neighbors)… Read more »
Excuse me? In Japan sexual assault is so common on trains that they have to have PSA’s about it. One disturbing trend is that some men there are so unable to form relationships with women that they have started sleeping with pillows with anime characters on them. Adultery is a norm and accepted once a wife has had a baby. Rape is uncommon because of cultural ideas about shame, not because of lots of porn. If the claim about porn and a provable correlation with reuctions in rape can be borne out then that’s great. Japan is really not the… Read more »
The end of the world? Is it simply impossible to have an intelligent discussion on pornography and male sexuality (which is what pornography is generally about) without resorting to absolute denial, hyperbole, and hysteria? Let’s stay with the genre of gonzo porn. Is it the cause of desensitization or a symptom of it? Isn’t there a general level of desensitization necessary to enjoy (and especially get off) on gonzo porn in the first place? Beyond that, communication is absolutely vital if the kind of equality you talk about is to be reached. So it simply isn’t wrong for a man… Read more »
It is pretty well established that even mainstream porn has this same emphasis of the male sexual experience to nth degree with women depicted as enthusiastic participants. By way of image and action it devalues women, and not just ordinary women, women or girls that are represented in our society as ideals. Many coupled consume this porn and then hide it from their partners or refuse to even discuss it with them, vehemently clinging to it as a “right”. This devalues the partner even more than the women in the porn. Man retains his control of the sexual world. That’s… Read more »
Hey pssstt – I like it when a man goes down on me. By your nonsensical edict, this act would be degrading to men. And anal sex is pleasurable.
You’re missing my point. I like it when a man goes down one me. I love giving head. These things done in a reciprocal and equitable fashion are fantastic. But that’s not the way they are depicted in mainstream porn. You are hard pressed to find cunnilingus. Anal sex is great too. It’s just disproportionately shown. I’m not trying to talk about your sex life here.
Sorry, but you can’t say: Oh and I can tell you why oral or anal is seen as degrading to women. We have VAGINAS that give us pleasure when penetrated. Obviously having a penis thrust into the throat only gives the man pleasure. Anal is the same way for a lot of women. They just don’t like the idea of having something shoved up their assholes. Weird. and then claim you are only talking about how it is shown in porn. You ARE talking about people’s sex lives here, you just don’t seem to have the guts to be honest… Read more »
…The first sentance says “porn” how is that about your sex life?
Please look at the part I blockquoted. Then look at the sentence immediately preceding: “Oh and I can tell you why oral or anal is seen as degrading to women. We have VAGINAS that give us pleasure when penetrated.”
THAT is what is commonly known as a change of subject or segue.
I was offended when you depicted women in a sexually submissive position (“pleasure when penetrated”). Penetration is a violent term. I prefer the phrase, “Vaginas give us pleasure when we engulf them in the penis.”
Sorry, but I must have missed something. How is “pleasure when penetrated” a violent term. Penetrated, without some form of adverb to qualify the type of action (as in,”forcefully penetrated, violently penetrated”), is not of itself a violent term. And by the way? “When we engulf them in the penis” doesn’t even make sense. Although I do see the potential for humor in the term 🙂
Blame capitalism. Supply and demand. What the customer demands, the customer gets, even if it is in ridiculous proportions. Facials, believe it or not, get old. As does anal, as does everything else. That said, I’m largely in agreement with the article’s author. However, I don’t think that porn destroys empathy. It sure hasn’t for me. I would never do to woman what she doesn’t want done. That said, I expect a GGG partner, namely one who is good giving and game. Everyone has their limits, but if you’re a dead fish (even a hot dead fish) and only do… Read more »
Hmmm… Rereading my statement, I see I made an error. I don’t agree with the author, even though it was somehow compelling at first. Really, I suppose I should have my lover comment. She can tell you if I’m empathetic or not. I suspect I’m biased. She could also tell you if I’m a good lover or not, notwithstanding the 20 odd years of porn consumption.
I got your point all too well – see the comment below from Tomio. No need for me to repeat the obvious.
“I’m not trying to talk about [someone’s sex life] here.” Neither is porn talking about how sex ought to be for anyone else. But since you, jesuscrunk, evidently seem to think porn does, you should know that Jensen is right: lots of men and not a few women ask for things that are depicted in porn (which I can hardly think invented any of these acts). And, save for the moral defectives among us, they take ‘no’ for an answer. If you’re point is that no one should ever ask anyone to do these things—it certainly seems to be Jensen’s,… Read more »
OK, so you like it in the pooper, what do you want? Congratulations? Not every woman does and I respect that.
Hey, how about you don’t ignore the entire rest of the conversation? A blanket statement was made that women don’t like anal or oral because they have vaginas and she was making a reply to that proving it to be a sweeping generalization that is patently false.
BEST COMMENT. Absolutely cannot stand the lone couple of chicks who always love to come to articles on porn’s general degradation to parade around the fact that OMG BUT THEY LOOOVE TO DO XYZ.
So desperate for validation.
Nicole,
Did you really just throw a catty put-down at a female poster in the comments section of an article about feminist perspectives?
Wow.
And all I get is vehement disagreement on this (and other sites like this) when I say women slut shame other women far more than men slut shame women…..
*megalithic eyeroll*
Women provide the cultural template for slut shaming. They might (maybe) use the word less than men (not sure about that,) but it is prompted by women’s culture. It comes from the desire to restrict sex markets and keep the “price” of sex high. The guy who doesn’t like older men’s sex talk on another thread is implicitly trying to raise the sexual value of younger men.
Yeah that wasn’t slut shaming. I honestly don’t care what you like or don’t like. I just cannot stand when there is always a small handful of women that practically trip over themselves in a rush to affirm that since THEY don’t feel objectified, then the point is illegitimate.
It’s the same mentality of women who go to great lengths to assure people that they “aren’t feminists” because they would hate for guys to be turned off by the idea that they were.
Nope – jesuscrunk dismissed elissa’s sexual tastes as something that aren’t pleasurable to women. Elissa then chided jesuscrunk for attempting to speak for her. No one is “tripping over” anything, unless jesuscrunk worded her/his original post incorrectly.
I understand that you are speaking for yourself, and I appreciate it. However, I am a man who likes to be penetrated anally and orally. I don’t believe the experience of either is that dissimilar from what a woman would experience…and neither uses my PENIS which is the primary means of direct sexual pleasure for a man. Maybe if anal sex were viewed as something other than “shoving something up their ass” then there could be a conversation. But I won’t be sarcastic and judgmental about what you do or don’t enjoy. It’s your life and you must live it… Read more »
I’ve tried anal sex, and I find it to be unpleasant in the extreme. It’s painful and it creates a mess. There is nothing erotic for me about the feeling of passing a large, constipated stool. I could eat a low fiber diet have the same experience. I realize some women like anal sex but personally, I don’t. I’ve had men pester me for anal sex and I find that annoying. why would they want to do something that gives me no pleasure and is even painful to me? I had one boyfriend who constantly acted like I was denying… Read more »
I appreciate your response, Jill. And I appreciate your experience. Mine is quite the opposite, but that’s what makes humanity wonderful…it’s diversity. And I have known several women who enjoyed it…or at least that is what they said when it was discussed. The issue of anal being a central part of sexuality is interesting to me as well. I know if I were not able to be penetrated that I would feel something is missing from my sex life. If my partner were unable to be penetrated, I would feel the same way…but I would also try to understand why… Read more »
Jill,
You can talk with me. I love anal sex! It’s my second favorite way to orgasm…sometimes it seriously vies for first.
Well, I gotta say, I don’t get that at all, but different strokes for different folks.
Absolutely Jill – different folks use different strokes
There are an abundance of pleasurable nerve endings in the anal region and rectum, and let us not forget that anal sex also includes finger(s), and my personal favorite – anilingus
That’s French for eat my butt -:)
Hmmm, sounds a little unsanitary. I hate to sound like an uptight prude (because really, I’m not) but I have a strong aversion to fecal smells and substances whether smeared on myself or others. And yes I’ve heard of enemas, but I’ve yet to meet a man who is worth giving myself an enema. 🙂 Anyhoo, as I said, I’ve tried it anal sex, and the pleasurable nerve sensations of which you speak just aren’t there for me. I know that there are women (lie yourselves) who enjoy it but the message I guess I’d like men to get is… Read more »
My first wife liked it, and I didn’t at all (as the penetrator.) It doesn’t feel right to me, even with a lubricant.
Yeah, I’ve had male partners who just aren’t into it. It happens.
Thumbs up, Jill! Hard limits are hard limits. And you are very right that it does not make you a prude or uptight (I think the fact you can actually talk about it sensibly proves that) if you do not enjoy it…and I thank you for saying that the reverse is true, as well. Just for the record…if everything is clean, there is no fecal smell or substance whatsoever. That would be a huge turn-off for me, as well. (I will include the caveat that there is always a risk of smell or substance, even if someone does work for… Read more »
A pretty good compromise seems to be slow anal intercourse in the “T” position with the man giving a clitoral massage at the same time. I personally like that better doing the vagina, though.
jesuscrunk said… “Oh and I can tell you why oral or anal is seen as degrading to women. We have VAGINAS that give us pleasure when penetrated.” Many feminists would argue that PIV sex is degrading to women because not all woman receive please from it. I could also link to you an articles about why the would “penetrate” in considered violent. My point being that you point is contradictory and lacking as it excludes that men can perform oral sex as well. Sex is not a zero sum game only masturbation. “Obviously having a penis thrust into the throat… Read more »
You know, I would like to see some sex-positive feminists write articles here. I am annoyed that more space is given to sex-negative feminists in this magazine than sex-positive ones. Grrrr! Now, I am not going to claim that internet porn is all good or that it has zero negative impact on society. It does. However, I am tired of hearing that because pornography features practices that not all women want to partake in that it is inherently bad or male dominant. That just isn’t the case. Furthermore, it pathologizes the men who make the requests and women who happen… Read more »
Honestly, I think this is due to the focus on men. Jensen admits in the article that as an anti-porn/radfem-allied man he gets a lot of gender-focused attention and respect (much like anti-feminists women do). Sex positive men, on the other hand, are viewed as nothing special; I’ve often seen it implied that men don’t need sex positive feminism because we’re already catered to, but that only works for men whose sexualities are perfectly aligned with current norms.
Bob laughs all the way to the bank, too. He did a recent piece about how some working class guy he knows is more radical than the rest of us will ever be. Well, Bob, it took me thirty years to get a PhD (at UT, Austin. In sociology.) I wasn’t in school the whole time, either. I worked as a vocational nurse in psychiatry for years. I was an orderly in a nursing home before that. I think the “privilege” orientation Bob takes toward race and gender issues is pure bourgeois posturing.
He does seem to think of the ‘unprivileged’, as the PC corps defines them, as specimens to be collected and pinned on a board to study, for use later as objects to refer to during pontification in front of an audience. I’m glad to see he at leasts throws a token kudos at a worker. Speaking of porn, it’s no different than the way Anais Nin collected Henry Miller and June Mansfield Smith Miller as toys to play with when things got dull at the house in Vincennes.
“Rooting your critique of porn in 70’s feminism means, I believe, that there is a heavy dose of Dworkin mixed in- and her view of male sexuality is as degrading and objectifying as any view of female sexuality has been.”
Can you please qualify this statement with concrete examples? I’m doing research and coming up with a very different picture of Dworkin, so I’m trying to look at different viewpoints here. Thanks, Tonio.
Sorry, somehow this got posted in the wrong place. It belongs up under Tonio’s first comment….will repost it there.
“Rooting your critique of porn in 70′s feminism means, I believe, that there is a heavy dose of Dworkin mixed in- and her view of male sexuality is as degrading and objectifying as any view of female sexuality has been.”
Can you please qualify this statement with concrete examples? I’m doing research and coming up with a very different picture of Dworkin, so I’m trying to look at different viewpoints here. Thanks, Tonio.
Hi Lili,
Dworkin’s memoir is quite moving. I’ve forgotten the title. I read it years ago. But her public utterances are extremely sexist– in fact, they can be called “gender fascist.” I’ve heard these directly– at a Take Back the Night March in 1980.
Hank
From Our Blood: For men I suspect that this transformation begins in the place they most dread — that is, in a limp penis. I think that men will have to give up their precious erections and begin to make love as women do together. and Under patriarchy, every woman’s son is her betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman. Note the totalitarian nature of her pronouncement. EVERY man is like this. Every single one. From Intercourse: Violation is a synonym for intercourse. At the same time, the penetration is taken to be a use, not… Read more »
You don’t have to attribute to Dworkin attitudes she didn’t have to accept that she did great damage to polemic as a form of argumentation.
Well, I don’t actually KNOW what she thought…so I have to go on the written record. And it’s pretty damning from my perspective. Although I think she did some fabulous work in general, there’s a limit.
In Jensen’s book, he gives kudos to Dworkin. Pretty much like giving kudos to Hitler in my mind. The thing many feminists don’t acknowledge is that most women have benefitted from “patriarchy.” (Some have called patriarchy the female reproductive strategy made flesh.) There is, I think, a material basis to feminism, however. Some women are excluded from marriage markets and must fend for themselves economically. (Dworkin is spectacularly unattractive, for example.) I’d support their demands for salary parity, but the proposed reform of male culture, especially these days when there is more actual parity, is nonsense. MacKinnon was more of… Read more »
“But I would hazard a guess that most women can’t explain why they find oral sex or anal sex or whatever to be degrading…so how is it the problem of the men in their lives for not understanding either?” If they have a religious upbringing: their ancestors said it’s reprehensible behaviour and their god, whom they dedicate their entire existence to, said that it’s a disgusting form of abuse and that it may challenge their ability to reach a better afterlife. They understand it as degrading. Or, perhaps they had a boyfriend who pressured them into oral sex when they… Read more »
Hmmmm…you know, I’m thinking that if one person in a relationship doesn’t like specific sex acts because of their religion or upbringing and the other person does maybe the two people are just not compatible for a long-term relationship. Sexual compatibility is important for long-term, monogamous relationships. People who enjoy anal sex don’t find it uncomfortable. They find it pleasurable. Anal sex is a bit of a process though. It often requires some prep work and can be painful if sufficient care is not taken. I have also found that sometimes the shape/size of the penis can influence the pleasure/pain… Read more »
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it comes across as if these “empathy-less” men are saying something more like “I’d like to try this; would you be interested?” rather than “as my partner, you must do this for me.” At any rate, this piece seems to equate the two and suggests that men with non-normative sexual interests have an obligation to keep that to themselves.
That’s a matter in how they communicate it, then. The empathy part comes in with knowing your partner, and knowing what they’ve known all of their lives… depending on your age, some people born and raised in some eras were see something as simple as a blow job/eating out as an act of total degradation and can reduce a person to tears if they think that their partner wants them to do something that they’ve only ever known as a bad thing. If any form of religion is added to the mix, there’s a strong element of fear of punishment… Read more »
The thing is, though, it’s not clear to me that we’re *not* talking about baby steps. That’s what I was trying to figure out from this – to what extent “why can’t he understand why I don’t want that?” means “I’ve tried explaining to him, but he just doesn’t seem to comprehend it” and to what extent it means “he should just know without me having to explain it.” The former is obviously an empathy deficit; I don’t believe the latter necessarily is. I’m all about communication (and I’m lucky enough to have a partner who is too); I believe… Read more »