Doctor NerdLove explains that what makes a “bad boy” so appealing isn’t his badness, it’s something even nice guys can do, too.
If there is one thing that men, especially nerdy, geekier men—men more prone to be Nice Guys and White Knights—will complain about when it comes to their dating problems, it’s that women don’t like “nice” men. No, frustrating the millions of men who heard “I wish I could meet a nice guy like you”1 and took it too much to heart is the way that the “bad boy” seems to win women’s hearts and loins.
There is no dating cliche older or more lingering than the appeal of the “bad boy”. One of the most defining characteristics of known rake Lord Byron is that he was famously “mad, bad and dangerous to know”.
Narcissistic. Drug abuser. Self-destructive.Unable to keep it in his pants. Perpetually running out of money. All he needed was to be in a band to get “bad boyfriend” yahtzee.
It’s a subject that I have talked about before: the idea that all women love assholes and that this is programmed into them genetically; after all, assholes are often more “alpha” than the Nice Guys who complain about them, therefore it is their inevitable destiny to fall for them… usually on their backs. Therefore the key to being more attractive is to be “bad”.
It’s a short-sighted solution that builds on a collection of mistaken assumptions reinforced by confirmation bias and poor understanding of human sexuality and evolutionary psychology… but it’s not entirely wrong.
In fact, the appeal of the “bad boy” is something that psychologists and sociologists have been interested in for quite some time. And it seems as though they may have found some interesting answers.
♦◊♦
I Told You I’m A Psycho…
It is unquestionable that men and women with certain negative traits personality traits seem to be more popular. We all remember the Queen Bee at the top of the high-school pecking order; the most popular girl in school, enforcing her will through manipulation and cruelty. Similarly, it seemed as though the douchiest of jocks were inevitably the Big Men on Campus. We can’t stand them… so why do assholes seem so popular?
Well, it turns out that three personality traits known as the “dark triad” are actually associated with being able to enhance a person’s physical attractiveness.
Although admittedly it sounds a lot like the McGuffin that Gannondorf steals in every installment of Legend of Zelda.
The so-called “Dark Triad” consists of three separate but overlapping personality traits - perceived as having similar underlying commonalities:
- Narcissism - defined as an overly developed sense of self-worth and entitlement matched with intense egotism.
- Machiavellianism – defined by the person’s reliance on manipulation to get what he or she desires without regard to others as well as a cynical dismissal of morality as “for other people”.
- Psychopathy – a loaded term; it doesn’t refer to a violent maniac, but to someone defined by reckless thrill-seeking, selfishness, lack of remorse and affect and a certain level of superficial charm
Scientists have known for a while that narcissism—for example—actually has direct correlation with initial popularity. In fact, a study conducted in 2010 by Mitja Back and Boris Egloff of Johannes Gutenberg—University of Mainz found that, upon first meeting them, people thought that narcissistic individuals were “flashier”, “more confident” and more immediately likable.
What made things interesting is a new study, conducted in 2012 by Nick Holtzman and Michael Strube of Washington University in St. Louis found that individuals whose personality types conformed to the dark triad were perceived as being physically more attractive than people who didn’t have darker personality aspects.
To test this idea, Holtzman and Strube invited 111 college students to participate in a study. The students – more women than men – were photographed in their usual clothes, then given grey, featureless sweatsuits to change into. Anyone wearing make-up was asked to remove it while anyone with long hair was asked to pull it into a ponytail. The idea was to take as neutral and natural a photo of the participants as possible as a control. Students were asked to answer a questionaire and rate themselves on a personality scale. To help counterbalance any errors introduced by self-reporting, Strube and Holtzman alsointerviewed acquaintances of the subjects about their personalities. From these results, the subjects were rated and scored with relation to dark triad personality types.
The photos of the subjects—both the dressed up and neutral shots—were then shown to strangers, who were asked to rate them in terms of physical attractiveness. Those who scored higher on the dark triad were consistently found to be more attractive by strangers than those who rated lower… but only when they were dressed up. When all of the subjects were wearing the sweat-suits and showing their more natural look, the influence of the dark triad personality type disappeared.
Heeeeyooooo… I got my haaaaaalo….
As it turns out, those individuals who ranked higher on the dark triad scale were better at making a better presenting themselves and knowing how to make themselves look better. Just as with the earlier narcissism study, those with darker personality traits were better able to cultivate their sense of style. They tend to wear edgier, more stylish clothes that make them stand out more2, wear a more fashionable hair style, have more confident body language and smiled more.
In short: they know how to make a better first impression than other people do. By knowing how to display themselves to their best advantage, they made themselves look better. By doing so, they take advantage of a phenomenon known as the “halo effect”: because they are perceived as being more physically attractive, we automatically assume that they’re also better people – kinder, smarter, more trustworthy, etc.
As a result: the more psychopathic or narcissistic you are, the better you are at conning people into thinking you’re actually a good person.
Y’know. Deep down.
Possibly very deep down.
So clearly the key to success in dating is to learn to become a functioning sociopath, right?
Wrong.
Also, There Are Downsides…
One thing that the Black-Etjoff study found is that the those people with dark triad personalities may make for great initial impressions but lousy long-term ones. In fact, their personal popularity tends to drop the more people get to know the real person behind the flash and smoke.
Y’see, the dark triad personality types are pre-disposed to short-term goals and thinking; they focus on immediate goals (“How do I get her in bed?”) and less on long term ones (“How do I get her to go out with me again?”) which hinders them in the long term… including financially. They’re much more likely to go for the immediate (and smaller) reward than for planning for a future (and bigger) one. They’re prone to stealing partners from others and are more likely to have substance-abuse issues and are known for having lowered standards—sometimes drastically—for sexual partners. The dark triad also has a correlation with excessive agression towards others, bullying behavior and racist attitudes.
It’s almost impossible to keep the charade up for very long; inevitably people will start seeing the man behind the mask and start realizing that he’s actually pretty damn repulsive.
This makes it rather difficult to maintain relationships for very long. Even if you’re willing to sacrifice the long term relationship on the altar of more frequent, no-commitment sex, people talk and social circles are smaller than you’d think. It doesn’t take very long for a reputation for being an asshole to spread and effectively limit your available dating pool. Similarly, this is not behavior that ages well; time and gravity make fools of us all eventually and what can seem charmingly rakish at 20 quickly becomes boorish at 3o and just embarrassing at 40.
Finding Your Creamy Bastard Center
It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to women, it’s that traits that women find attractive are frequently found in assholes and narcissists.
This, in case you haven’t been paying attention, means that you can cultivate these traits to your own advantage without the negative aspects that come with them.
A person’s physical attractiveness isn’t binary; it can be affected by something as minor as overhead lighting vs. indirect lighting. Simple changes in posture can alter people’s perception of a person’s attractiveness. Even people who are considered conventionally beautiful often benefit from some external help.
Never underestimate the power of foundation and blush.
The people with high dark triad scores knew how to make a better first impression by crafting their look to their best advantage.
You can do this too.
Find Your Archetype:
Start by figuring out what your sexy stereotype is. Are you a rocker or a business tycoon? Do you aspire to be a modern dandy like Andre 3000 or are you more of a Mod? Find a base line look that’s congruent with your identity and use this as the foundation for everything else.
Cultivate Your Style:
Be willing to stand out and make a statement. Cultivate a style in line with your archetype and make it your own. This means that you have to be willing to take some risks and break out of clothes that—while psychologically comfortable—cause you to blend in with the herd. You may feel like you’re playing dress-up at first, but the more you try, the more natural you will find that it becomes.
Make Sure Your Clothes Fit Right:
Seriously, I can’t emphasize this enough. Clothes that are too baggy or too small make you look bad. Period.
Use Confident Body Language:
Narcissists, psychopaths and Machiavellians aren’t shrinking violets; they stand up tall and take up space. They want people know that they’re there. Everything about them screams “confidence”—their body language most of all. Even if you’re not feeling confident, adopting confident body language—standing up straight, letting your limbs relax, moving deliberately and with purpose—will help you fake it. Even more importantly, using more confident body language will make you feel more confident… and confidence is sexy.
SMILE.
For fuck’s sake, smile. A big, genuine smile that reaches your eyes. A friendly smile makes you much more attractive than a blank affect or trying to look “serious”. Part of George Clooney’s appeal is that grin—equal parts friendliness and mischief that promises stories you’ll be telling for years to come.
“Bad boys” may be attractive at the first glance, but only because they know how to sell themselves up front. They have to; they have no long game and they know it. The more skilled you become at creating an immediate positive impression in others the more of a leg up that you’ll have over those bad boys. You’ll soon find that you’re having levels of success that they could only dream of.
Not only will you have the style to make that great first impression… but you’ll have the substance to back it up.
- And ignored the silent “…who I would be interested in fucking.” [↩]
- known as peacocking in PUA circles [↩]
Originally appeared at Paging Doctor NerdLove
Lead photo courtesy of Flickr/Marco Raaphorst
All other photos courtesy of Paging Doctor NerdLove
About Harris O'Malley
Oh how do I love this article, let me count the ways
on a psychological level I know these people who speak about. You hit the issue head on—especially so of the Dark Triad personality type that after a while appears to be …just a cocky, arrogant you know what. But, all in all we (women) fall for this type. What a shame! I’ve done it too! Thanks for the good read.
“Bad boys” may be attractive at the first glance, but only because they know how to sell themselves up front. They have to; they have no long game and they know it.
Or, they don’t have any long game because they don’t have to…?
Exactly. It is only a matter of willingness, rather than ability.
Bad boys get both options. They get to have their fun AND they have long term relationships and make families too. Just like every ordinary woman gets both options.
So, basically what you are saying is that the attractive “bad boys” aren’t all that bad, per se.
They are just psychopathic or narcissistic instead.
Yeah, that make all the sense now…
It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to women, it’s that traits that women find attractive are frequently found in assholes and narcissists.
Staying away from women that fail to recognize this would be helpful to guys that are trying to find their own groove as well. Because honestly some women just cannot or will not see the difference. Don’t get hung up on them.
“those individuals who ranked higher on the dark triad scale were better at making a better presenting themselves and knowing how to make themselves look better…. In short: they know how to make a better first impression.”
Agreed. But I notice that Dr. Nerdlove kinda zoomed past the obvious consequence: the first impression is the only chance that ANY of us, nice or nasty, ever get.
“People with dark triad personalities may make for great initial impressions but lousy long-term ones. In fact, their personal popularity tends to drop the more people get to know the real person behind the flash and smoke.”
And in order for her to get to know you, you had to make a positive first impression. The “dark triad” guys get that opportunity–the guys who didn’t never get a chance to show their better qualities that make for better long-term relationships, because they got eliminated at Step One.
“It’s almost impossible to keep the charade up for very long.”
But they keep it up just long enough to win the initial battle, after which there’s no competition… because the guys who AREN’T manipulative, selfish, narcissists have already been eliminated. First impression = ONLY impression.
This makes it rather difficult to maintain relationships for very long.
Read more at http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-appeal-of-bad-boys/#TdpJRD7Kbs9qqOKK.99
many bells and whistles are going off due to the correctness of this response.
I had many girls be interested in me or really be into me after prolonged exposure (coworkers, classmates (college), just happened to be in the same social circle). Once these women got to (shock!) actually know me, and not just judge me on a first impression they actually started to like me and find me attractive.
Let me now count the number of women who liked me at first meeting me, easy, two. Two out of the several dozens of women I tried to talk to actually were interested in me after a first impression. When I was “Internet” dating (Match and Yahoo Personals) I went out of quite few dates. Let me now count the number of second dates I ever had from that. ZERO.
Short of kidnapping and locking these women up how was I supposed to make any type of long-term impression with these women? If we aren’t talking about coworkers or classmates than all that matters is the first impression! I knew my wife nine years before we even started dating, and she’s the first to admit the first time she met me she thought I was unattractive and not very interesting. Nine years after meeting someone probably isn’t going to happen for most people. Please let me know how there is any downside to the “dark triad”. They get what they want at the beginning and that’s all that matters because the momentum carries them into relationships anyway.
The way I see it, guys should simply avoid the types of women who fall for bad boys or bad boy traits.
Those women are either immature, insecure, or extremely shallow.
It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to women, it’s that traits that women find attractive are frequently found in assholes and narcissists.
Now there is one of the greatest apologetics for questionable female behavior if I’ve ever seen one.
Let’s turn this around, shall we?
“Men aren’t inherently attracted to young, hot 10′s. It’s just that certain traits men find attractive are often found in young, hot women.”
Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it?
Yes.
There’s a difference, though. As a man you CAN take steps to work on your confidence, smile more, buy new clothes, and figure out who you are. As a woman, there is literally nothing you can do to stay 18 forever. There is no science for that. Nothing you can do.
You know damn well you dont need to be an 18 yr old to attract men.
Im sure my 49 yr old mom can get laid easier than me (a 26 yr old guy)
Pray tell, then, what do you do to work on your confidence when every time you say “Hi” to someone they look straight through you as if you didn’t exist, and then walk over to stand in the crowd around that loud-mouth “jock” over there loving nothing more than the sound of his own voice…
I’m not actually sure it sounds that ridiculous.
Sometime between the ages of 21 and 26 I stopped finding 18 years old attractive, no matter how conventionally “hot” they were. At a certain point, having a “perfect 10″ body shape just wasn’t going to make up for the immaturity that inherently comes with being 18.
Looking at some of the other replies, notably Sarah’s, it seems like women might go through a similar process: dating the guys at 21 that they wouldn’t consider by 27.
In some sense it’s not fair because society still stereotypes men as willing to go for 18 year olds no matter what, and that deserves discussion, but is also means that the statement “Men aren’t inherently attracted to young, hot 10′s” is completely true.
Women like to perpetuate this BS basically. They get a lot of sympathy for it. They love to PRETEND they are more forgiving to men on their looks. They love to pretend fat women have it worse than fat men in the dating/sexual scene. Its the other way round in reality
They look at stick thin youthful models parading on their TV screens and like to beleive that men in real world, also dont want anything less than that. Nothing is far from reality.
I’d actually say the statement works with the same exact words and the genders replaced:
“It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to [men], it’s that traits that [men] find attractive are frequently found in [bitches] and narcissists.”
I’ve seen many a dating book titled “Why Men Love Bitches” and the like. The men I know don’t like bitches, but there are very few conventionally attractive bitchy women I know that have any trouble finding dates. It’s the same for conventionally attractive assholes. Can we just agree that there are a whole lot of people out there we would never want to date because they fall for assholes/bitches? I wouldn’t be interested in a man that fell for that type of woman, so it’s not even worth lamenting over it. So I don’t know why men lament over the fact that they’ve lost a chance with the sort of woman who dates assholes. You’re probably better off for it, I think.
Sorry to break this to you but, people continue to be attracted to bad boys because of those traits even after they get to know them more.
People wish the attraction of a bad boy didn’t last, but they go on to have a girlfriend, get married and even have kids.
I said this in the casual sex thread but I like the stereotypical bad boy for a one night stand because of all those qualities. When all I am looking for is a quick no strings attached hook up I want that arrogant narcissist. I don’t want to peel off the layers to get to know someone in that context. I don’t particularly care about who they are on the inside. The less work the better for me for a one night stand.
For a relationship I’m more likely to go for the nice guy. Because I have time to peel back layers. In fact typically I don’t even consider a bad boy for a relationship if that’s how he first presents to me. When I feel like I’m open to a relationship I will go looking for nice guys. I hit on them. I work on getting to know them and conversations. Do the dating thing. It’s really hard to find where nice guys congregate honestly (I don’t do the bar scene that much and we don’t have stuff like coffee shops etc. where I live).
But I’ll own. I do go for the bad boy for the strictly casual stuff.
Thank you for owning this. It’s very refreshing to see this openly discussed. I think it’s great that you point out that some women are looking for different things in different situations. The same person may be attracted to different kinds of things at different times.
And then you complain that the sex was unsatisfying because he only focused on himself, and go out telling other men that they should focus more on the woman, because that would lead to more casual sex.
I’ve never complained that the sex was unsatisfying. For a one night stand the sex is, for me, usually quite satisfying because realistically in a one night stand situation I’m focusing on me. He can focus on him. In a relationship that would get old but I’m not looking for a relationship with the bad boy. Just a few hours of his time.
Well, if we assume that Dr. Anonymous used the general you, he does have a point: I’ve read several articles which boiled down to “Men, you want more women to be up for casual sex? Stop being seflish in bed!!One!Eleven!”
Except that there may be a chicken/egg problem: Did female preferences kick the nice guys out of the casual sex game, or did women who dig nice guys get frustrated with the casual sex game after meating one bad boy too much?
Glad that you’re owning it, but un-glad that this means that nice guys are pretty much out of the casual sex game, if this is attitude is common amongst women (which I guess it is, at least among those women who are into casual sex).
I don’t know if I’m that nice of a guy (but I mostly try to be friendly towards the people I interact with), and I’m certainly not long term relationship material, but if I were both of these things, I would feel less than flattered, probably even insulted, to learn that I was the kind of guy my partner would never have a one night stand with because of my lack of bad boy-ishness. I’d get the impression that my partner considers me to be boring but stable, kind of like a nutritional broccoli compared to the delicious juicy bad boy steaks.
The way you worded makes me wonder whether you regularly go from long term relationships (with nice men) to phases of wild one night stands (with bad boys), or whether you just consider a long term relationship for some time in the future, when you will make sure that the guy is no bad boy. Actually, I’m wondering about a lot of aspects of your sex life that are none of my business, apologies.
I don’t typically hop from a relationship to sleeping around. I also go through periods of no sex and work on other stuff in my life. I’ve been busy with my career and college for the last while primarily where I couldn’t give a long term relationship or really any partner the attention that is deserved. Instead of being neglectful and trying to have it all so to speak I decided to focus on other stuff for awhile which has lent itself nicely to casual relationships. There have been some interludes between stints in college and at one point where a job mellowed out where I did go looking for a LTR but then got busy again. In my younger days I was more into open relationships and swinging relationships which also melded well with the one night stand world. Over the years I’ve examined at length what I look for in different situations instead of repeatedly trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
I have a few reasons why I don’t like to do casual sexual relationships with nice guys (and it hasn’t been for lack of trying). Where I am lots of the nice guys tend to also be the shy guys. I have limited time on my hands and just as a practical thing not enough time to try to work the shy guy out of a shell. Lots of nice guys want me to know them as a person before sex (just like lots of nice women do I found… I have this same problem with nice women). While that works for a relationship I don’t really want to have these heart to hearts with people that are just going to be a one night stand. Lots of nice guys where I am (this may not be the universal rule hence why I qualify it) have a propensity to get attached. I’m not having casual sex to cause pain to people and having to tell someone who genuinely gets attached that really they were only fun for a night sucks. The dark triad people tend to not get attached, they don’t want to know me or me to know them beyond some surface stuff, are charismatic and don’t need to be shaken out of a shell. They just make a nice neat package deal for casual sex. But boy do they suck at relationships.
And it’s not that nice guys are like broccoli so much as really the bad boys suck for relationships. And they really aren’t that great in the long term sex department either. A night of narcissistic sex between two strangers is great. A relationship full of it not so much. The sex I have during a casual encounter is not the same sex I have in a relationship (not that the relationship lacks passion but it’s different I give more and ask less in the relationship confines… totally doesn’t work with a bad boy). A nice guy is just as able to have a back bone and an edge and some dark triad traits but he is not a through and through that bad boy person. It’s not the extent of his personality in my experience. I gravitate to the nice guy for relationship for their multiple dimensions that I have the time to get to know instead of the one dimension of the bad boy.
I think this is interesting — I’ve never intentionally sought out casual sex or one night stands, or at least not since my early college days where I had a couple drunken, guilt-filled hookups. If I did decide that I wanted to find a guy for a one night stand, what qualities would I look for? I suppose I’d want a guy who was very attractive, who could show me a good time without a lot of hassle and not cause me any complications later. So I see where you are coming from. This is really no different that pickup artists who study how to target (a) the most physically attractive women (because why have casual sex with a homely woman, no matter how great a person she is, right? And (b) who are open to casual encounters (because you don’t want to waste time or have drama later when she feels attached).
I just gotta ask: Are narcissistic macho posturing and sexual prowess in bed really that positively correlated, in women’s experience?
I mean, I would have thought that a polite man who shows that he delights in giving pleasure to women would generally be a better lover, no matter if for one hour or for six months, than a jerk who wears his egotism on his sleeve. And wouldn’t cause anymore hassle than that drunken dude not waking up next to you next morning …
Also, looking for casual sex partners based on nothing but looks and the apparent ease of getting rid of them seems like a stupid concept to me, or at least an alien one: If someone has a personality that I find totally grating, I don’t want to spend any time with them, no matter how hot they look, no matter what they would do with me in bed (and, again, I doubt any strong correlation between sexy looks and actual sexual skills).
well the thing is, I don’t look for casual encounters so I’m mostly speculating. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I did date several bad boy brooding musicians in my 20′s, but after that, I’ve tended to be in relationships with shyer, nerdier types of guys. I am, myself, a huge geek. This is the thing. Sex with a shy, insecure guy can be amazing — eventually. But my experience, it takes some patience to work through someone’s sexual insecurity, hangups and bad past experiences. My relationship with my current boyfriend took a long time to get started. He didn’t try to initiate sex anything physical until had been hanging out casually for 2 months. I actually had concluded he had no physical attraction for me and we were just friends. However, I was willing to make it romantic and see what happened. It was another 6 weeks before we had sex and it took about 3 months of regular sex before he could really relax and enjoy himself. We had to talk a lot about his sexual issues and some of his baggage from past relationships. Like a lot of guys with his personality type, he overthinks and intellectualizes everything. Today, we have absolutely amazing sex but it was a lot of effort to get there. He is an incredibly giving and unselfish lover and I love it. But the fact is, a lot of women would have given up on him and I have no doubt that’s a large part of his problems with women in the past. It was a lot of effort for me. He is actually a very physically attractive guy — 6’3″, built like a football player, great head of hair in his 40′s, beautiful eyes. Women flirt with him all the time. But he’d be tough to have a one night stand with. He’d miss all the signals and he wouldn’t know how to react. I bet women have tried to get him
in bed and he didn’t even know it.
Thanks for your reply. I think it would make a difference to me if I were a nice guy who got into a relationship with someone who follows your philosophy that you actually made experiences when trying to hook up with nice men that showed you that it would only work in the long run.
In other words: Hearing “Getting people like you to have casual sex is complex, and I only go for casual sex when I don’t have the time/energy for complexity in sexual matters” would make me feel like the game of go compared to bad boys being something more like Yahtzee. Far better
@Kat…
I guess it kind of begs the question: Why would a nice man really want to be bothered with you at all. After all, you did not have the time to invest in him, so why should he invest his time in you?
The reason these men are sexually awkward is because of a lack of sexual experience. But, I guess because women want what they want, when they want it, and feel entitled to such, they have no time for such men.
But, when they feel their shelf life is nearing an end, they have all the patience in the world for these nice boys. Honestly, even after marriage women like yourself still have little patience or desire for the nice boys. Just ask the hoards of unhappy married men who are in sexless marriages suffering torment.
I know that is the way it is. But, I think it is really horrible.
As I’ve said on other threads here, people constantly say that women get older and “figure it out” and are no longer interested in “bad boys”. This is very false. Women who love “bad boys” actually never figure it out. What happens is they age out of the age that the Alpha bad boys want. The women find out that once they are late 20s and 30s the “bad boys” (who they really are attracted to) are now dating the latest crop of 18-25 year olds.
After that the women marry a “nice guy” and eventually become totally bored with them. They are cold to them sexually (because there’s no bad boy excitement), and eventually there is a divorce.
These type of women don’t “figure it out” they just get too old for their beloved “bad boys” to want them anymore.
@elementary_watson
“I’d get the impression that my partner considers me to be boring but stable, kind of like a nutritional broccoli compared to the delicious juicy bad boy steaks.”
Yes, this is EXACTLY how these women see it. But of course they “love” you. So, even in the relationship they still do focus on themselves sexually. You are an afterthought. You will get sex only when she wants it (which will be infrequently). And the sex is going to be uninspired and lack enthusiasm.
@Kat…
Thanks for being open and honest. Very very rare for women, in general.
As I have learned the hard way in life, there are men whom women just want to screw. And there are men whom women want relationships and marriage. Usually, they are opposites.
I am not criticizing this state of affairs. This is just the way it is. Oh well.
I am a high status male but not a bad boy. Never been a womanizer…..Married 17 years and it was sexless and shitty.
My only criticism is that women such as yourself admittedly want a nice guy for a relationship or marriage. Fine. OK. But, why is that women such as yourself are uninspired to perform sexually for these nice guys as you did for the bad boys?
I just honestly wished a lot of women would stick to marrying the guys they REALLY want to fuck instead of getting the nice guys and treating them like shit sexually.
JMO.
Aren’t you lucky you have the choice of casual sex or a relationship, or neither, as you like. We men wish we did, too.
Inherently we have good and bad traits; it is how it’s used that comes across that defines the term. The difference is how morals are carried. The reason why we are so interested in bad boys/girls is their ability to get away with non-conformity while tending to look conformed to society. That is what makes them appealing. However, once you delve inside and they are figured out, they are like Superman hit with Kryptonite.
Appearance is nothing as it goes away with time.
I had dated both nice and bad boys before, and I lean towards long term goals since I am one myself- I prefer nerds especially ones that have glasses, to me they are the biggest teddy bears- but again it’s the personality inside that matters most.
I do occasionally get to meet a bad boy who would try and seduce me. I think bad boys are the ones that have less happiness and confidence in themselves as to why they end up being seduced instead. And it’s very hard to leave as they tend to be clingy or raving mad at me afterwards.
Well Marifosque, you’re correct… non-conformity is an issue w/ the attraction to bad boys
let’s even take this further and go back to James Dean—the one pic where he’s shown looking like a bad boy, women in those days loved it. Or even further back was the bad boy “Cowboy” which the Marlboro Man falls into this category. Women were able to escape the hands of the good guy, but fantasized about the bad guy from the images that were shown. I’m sure this had something to do with it.
Sometimes I think the attraction to “bad boys” is not so much being drawn to what they do but being repulsed by the things they don’t do but other men do. It’s partly the fact that cocky behavior suggests that the man will NOT behave in some other ways that are real turnoffs. It’s being drawn to a lack of negatives maybe as much as being drawn to a positive.
For example, the cocky narcissist or psychopath will probably not overwhelm you with whining about his life. He won’t look for you to fix his life or become his mother. When you’re done with him, you can count on him to move on without lingering or smothering you. It may be really hard to hurt his feelings. Sensitivity may be attractive, but oversensitivity usually isn’t. If you’re looking for a relationship with no strings attached, the ‘bad boy’ is probably tailor-made for you, because he probably is looking for the same thing.
There is often a feeling of authenticity with men who are assholes and don’t seem to care that they are. They could be manipulative liars, but they are more likely to be “what you see is what you get.” If you’re looking for a wolf, it’s better to find one in wolf’s clothing than one in sheep’s clothing.
Then again, never underestimate people’s desire to fix a man, rehabilitate him, or make him worthy of someone else’s love. That may also be part of the attraction to bad boys.
“For example, the cocky narcissist or psychopath will probably not overwhelm you with whining about his life. He won’t look for you to fix his life or become his mother”
I hear you have never met a narcissist. A narcissist will be totally absorbed with their failures and how it is always the fault of someone else that they failed.
To my mind there are different kinds of narcissists. There’s the moody, emotional black pit narcissist who will spend everyone’s attention rehashing his morose feelings. That sounds like the kind you mentioned. Then there’s the kind that I was thinking of, the cocky narcissist who appears to have very few feelings whatsoever, who is incapable of devoting any time to anything that sounds to him like whining. He’s too busy trying to get everything he wants out of other people to waste time on self-examination.
I have dated nice guys and bad boys. My college boyfriend was very clingy, and after we broke up, he became obsessed with our breakup and practically stalked me for several years. That scarec me for awhile. I went through a phase in my 20′s where I only dated brooding musician types. Talk about narcissists! but at least I never had to worry that a breakup would crush them. However, their self involvement got tiring.
Bad boys can be exciting but they are horrible in relationships. I got sick of the drama and the insensitivity, the drinking, the temper tantrums, the craziness. The thing with bad boys, they are never boring. The best partner is a good boy with a little bit of a bad side, just for fun.
I can see how Dr NerdLove weighs his words carefully, sugar coats them, before talking.
Feminists, and women generally, acknowledge the appeal of badboys, very reluctantly and grudgingly, if at all.
It is therefore atleast refreshing to see a pro-feminist dating expert not only acknowledging this reality but actually encouraging men to adopt the traits of bad boys.
Although I agree there are some inaccuracies in this article.
@ Sarah “The best partner is a good boy with a little bit of a bad side, just for fun.”
Thing is you don’t determine what a guy does with his bad side, there are gonna be times when you’ll see his “bad side” as a negative and a positive.
@wellokaythen “There is often a feeling of authenticity with men who are assholes and don’t seem to care that they are. They could be manipulative liars, but they are more likely to be “what you see is what you get.” If you’re looking for a wolf, it’s better to find one in wolf’s clothing than one in sheep’s clothing.”
Society wants honesty at certain times but also wants discretion at certain times.
For every woman who’s asked for honesty, there’s a guy who’s been honest and received shame and ridicule because of it.
The bad boy doesn’t care if people aren’t ok with his honesty at certain times.
They don’t care what people think, and that’s a trait every man should adopt if he wants to be successful with woman.
“The thing with bad boys, they are never boring.”
Yes, the very common female belief that every minute of life is supposed to be a huge life changing adventure. When I had a Match profile I remember that nearly all women’s profiles talked about trips, adventures, outings, and not a lot about real life. It seems they expected life to be a never ending vacation. Of course the regular or “nice guy” is grounded in real life so they don’t bring any adventure to the table.
Two stories:
My first girlfriend in college told me I was the first “nice guy” she had ever dated. One and a half years in she starts complaining that I’m boring and starts cheating on me. Because I was a “nice guy” sap (and because she was my first GF every) I forgave her, but she eventually cheated again, once again saying I didn’t do anything exciting for her and I was boring. The last guy she cheated with brought her lots of adventure. He fought with her in public, followed her around town, got her pregnant, ended up punching her brother in the hospital the night she gave birth, and then moved away to another city never to be seen again saying “I’m not responsible for that kid”. I’m very happy she found all the fun and adventure I was never able to give her.
Had a friend in college who was also a really good guy. Was with his GF for three years when she eventually tells him “you’re boring” and breaks up with him. Of course she had already met a “bad boy” where she worked and started dating him. He gets her pregnant and even at one point shoved her out of a moving car while pregnant. Of course she stayed with him. Adventure!
American women’s love of “bad boys” comes down to the unrealistic expectations they have for how “real life” is supposed to go. I think all this biology talk is a just trying to legitimize the childish view of life many woman have.
Yes, the very common female belief that every minute of life is supposed to be a huge life changing adventure…American women’s love of “bad boys” comes down to the unrealistic expectations they have for how “real life” is supposed to go. I think all this biology talk is a just trying to legitimize the childish view of life many woman have.
I’ve never really thought about it that way, but now that you say it, that makes perfect sense.
I once heard a story from some guy on another blog about a how a young woman his friend knew was set up on a date by her parents with a guy. Even though he was a perfectly decent guy, she wasn’t “feeling him” and flat-out rejected him. She eventually ended up with him because her mom pressured him to give him a chance. She ended up marrying him, and is now in a happy marriage.
As described by that commenter, it seems that many young women have unrealistic views about life and romance, and will completely ignore an otherwise good guy is he doesn’t have some kind of “swept off my feet” quality.
It’s as if women expect their dating lives to be something out of an exciting romance novel.
*if he*
*pressured her*
Argh, forgive my typos!
By “bad boys are never boring”, I meant that they are unpredictable and therefore interesting, at least initially. After awhile, you realize that the patterns start to repeat (often destructively). The moodiness isn’t depth, it’s bipolar disorder. Skipping work because you partied all night doesn’t make you a free spirit, it makes you irresponsible. Having emotional meltdowns just means you probably need therapy to work through your childhood issues. The thing is, bad boys (and girls) create emotional drama that can be mistaken for an exciting zest for life.
My SO and I have talked about this, or I should say she’s talked and said more than I think she knows. We’ve had this conversation twice. Both times there’s been some contextual prompt like a TV show or news of some male celebrity being…..bad.
She described the appeal of “bad boys” and her description was like Kat’s above. She had a series of flings with men she described as exciting, almost like thrill rides. She tried making a marriage work with one, and I suspect that experience and age and serendipity led her to me.
Each time this brief talk ended the same way. Looking at me tenderly but a bit quizzically, she said we probably wouldn’t been attracted to each other when we were younger. I didn’t speak or change expressions and just looked at her and the irony of her assumption about my feelings. A few seconds passed in silence, and she then said, “No, we were different then.”
Neither time did I correct her. She seems to need to believe that what she said was as true for me as it was for her, and I suppose I need her to believe it too. Me, the gently spinning carousel she truly loves, turning in the shadow of a kick ass roller coaster.
@Adrian…
“I suspect that experience and age and serendipity led her to me.”
What’s really hideous about this you are essentially a default guy for her. In essence, you have acknowledged that you are a second class citizen.
Once a woman has been on that “kick ass roller coaster” they never forget the thrill. That why they never bring the enthusiasm for sex to men who are like “gently spinning carousel.”
Don’t kid yourself!
Sometimes it takes a while to realize what you truly want. As an inexperienced 19 year old, I had ideas, but it does take growing pains, experience, and life to figure out who and what fits you. There are people and situations I would have never considered when younger but would now–not any weird bad boy thing, but just a more open view of the world. I used to scoff and turn my head up at jocks and frat boy types. Now I know that they’re people too, who could have many layers. Heck, I didn’t even know what I wanted my major to be at 19. Not only that, but there are relationships that never would have worked when we were younger. I wasn’t ready in college for the kind of relationship that I’m ready for now. I would have been too immature and confused. I would have seen the grass as always greener. And likely, the guy would have too. I’ve seen young, inexperienced “nice guys” do just this. And to relish any type of female attention so much that they’re willing to hurt their partner.
And then you complain that the sex was unsatisfying because he only focused on himself, and go out telling other men that they should focus more on the woman, because that would lead to more ca
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hdEXA1ceaA
The PUA’s have their own explanation about why women are attracted to the bad boys. It seems when men (or most of them) enjoy being the rescuer, women love being the fixer.
That’s pretty much the size of it: part looks, part confidence. You need that to even get your foot in the door, so to speak: nice isn’t even a factor until that point.
It’s really the same the other way. How many guys go looking for a “nice” girlfriend among the insecure and homely chicks? Only really insecure, homely guys.
@Evie….
Believe it or not, I really like homely women. So long as they have not let themselves go, I find them very attractive. Also, they are more honest, loyal, and caring.
I have never been a man who cared to go after “hot” women. Most of these women have slept with tons of men. I will pass. No interest whatsoever.
One of my FWB is a very conservative and homely dressing woman. She wears no make up and has a very simple hair style. But to me she is attractive and pretty. She loves sex and we are great sex partners and friends. She is very intelligent (a pharmacist) and loves to read…
I would much rather have this woman any day than these so called hot high mileage women.
It’s really the same the other way. How many guys go looking for a “nice” girlfriend among the insecure and homely chicks? Only really insecure, homely guys.
Not really.
As long as a woman is somewhat good looking, most guys are going to at least give her a chance. Maybe later on they’ll decide that her bad personality isn’t worth it, but she’ll at least have a chance.
If a guy has any kind of shyness of insecurity, he will forever be lonely, even if he’s good looking.
My intern is a young female engineering student who is very bright and attractive. I noticed the other day that she seemed a bit less upbeat than usual. Late in the day she came to my office and asked me for some advice about men (shock). She is 22 and I am 47 so I told her I couldn’t possibly relate to any issues she might be having in her personal life and wasn’t certain it was appropriate for us to discuss personal matters. She was very upset and asked (anyway) what was wrong with her and men. That she had a string of unsuccessful relationships I asked about the types of men that she was interested in and she described exactly the type of man mentioned in the article as being “dark triad”. I work with many types of men like this and I can certainly confirm that these men are often quite successful at getting what they want. The downside to these types are also as mentioned in the article, they usually are unable to commit long term to anything. I advised her, as I have my own adult daughters, that in the past, when those characteristics in a male were desirable as the female would have an inherent interest in mating with a male who could protect her and her children. That was a long time ago. Today, in the modern world, men who are well grounded in their careers and have long term goals are the ones that will provide long term stability. I am sure that was difficult for her understand considering her generation is one of instant gratification.
i remember the whole madonna/whore thing that people slinged on men. That this is a sexual dysfunction.
Can we say the same thing about Nice guys/bad boys?
That women se average men as so disposable that they that a man have to be so far out tére to even get noticed as a sexual being?
How do women see normal men? Why do they have such harsh distinctions, and why can’t we call it objectification?
Nothing, NOTHING, makes me more suspicious of a woman who tells me she doesn’t like women because “there’s just too much drama”. It’s the very first clue that that woman is a drama queen. I’ve had all-female friends my whole life, and NEVER have I had drama. Ever. I am 23. UNBELIEVABLE I KNOW. It’s because I make friends with people who are not dramatic. Because I ACTUALLY hate drama.
It struck me as interesting that some women like these type of men because “they keep things interesting/exciting”. It’s the same for men who date drama queens. You attract what you exude. So what’s odd to me is that we’re all standing around complaining about those women dating those men. So what? Do you WANT to date women who love drama? God, if I found out a man was attracted to drama queens, I’d be running the other way so fast. He’s fully entitled to his preferences, but that’s not what I would want.
To me, it’s people complaining that they can’t attract people who would probably be a bad fit anyway. I don’t complain about the men I don’t like who aren’t attracted to me. Maybe as a woman I have a different perspective on this.
Also, I think it’s funny when everyone’s shocked women are as shallow as men. We are not goddesses, people. We crap, fart, burp, and judge people just as harshly as men. Is it really shocking that women will date someone on looks alone? That they’ll turn men down because he’s got a mole in the wrong place? I hope one day we’ll stop expecting women to be awesome loving creatures and starting having super low expectations of them. It’ll make my life easier. Maybe then I can leave my house with unshaved legs and people won’t care, cuz women are hairy and gross naturally, amirite?
Also, I think it’s funny when everyone’s shocked women are as shallow as men. We are not goddesses, people. We crap, fart, burp, and judge people just as harshly as men. Is it really shocking that women will date someone on looks alone? That they’ll turn men down because he’s got a mole in the wrong place?
I completely agree.
Pass the memo to Nerdlove.
The reason why his articles always generate such heated reactions from men is because he always operates under the presumption that women are in fact goddesses. Or the next best thing.
There’s no such thing as women being shallow, creep shaming a guy because of his looks alone, etc. All of that is in men’s heads, and if they fail with women, they only have themselves to blame.
Sometimes I understand where he comes from, because both genders heap all this bitterness onto one another, explaining behavior as a “man” thing or a “woman” thing. “Well, women just like assholes!” and “Men just want sex”. Once we start talking about genders as collectives, that’s when tempers start flaring. Because not all women like assholes and not all men want sex. A large majority might like/want those things, true. But the reason these articles come into existence is because of the assumptions. I think NerdLove is trying to fix the assumptions and stereotypes. I just think it could be done in a much shorter, concise way.
Everyone has the potential to be an asshole. Everyone. No one is entitled to treat you better than the next guy because you’re nice, because you’ve got nice clothes, because you offer sex on the first date, because you’re rich. People get mad at women for not being nice, women get mad at men for not being nice. But no one HAS to treat you well or indulge your desires. Their behavior is their responsibility, not yours. If they want to be assholes, then they can assholes. The sooner you know it, the less time you waste with them. Women can be shallow jerks. If people start realizing this, they’ll be less angry when they realize that a woman is a shallow jerk. They’ll be able to move on.
Feminism to me is the idea that women are people. Often crappy, jerkish people. Just like men. Equality, yo. It’s awesome.
@Wanda:
To me, it’s people complaining that they can’t attract people who would probably be a bad fit anyway. I don’t complain about the men I don’t like who aren’t attracted to me. Maybe as a woman I have a different perspective on this.
Read the posts by signature Kat above. She seems to have less of a problem swinging between the different types of men she at the moment sees fit to date and engage in different activities, including but not limited to intimate ones
So yes, probably you and (many?) other woman have a different perspective on this, since most everybody seems to steep men more firmly into the one camp or the other.
I respect where Kat is coming from, but as someone who has absolutely no interest in casual sex, I cannot understand that particular outlook. I would not be able to swing from one type to another, as I cannot stand narcissists and assholes, even if they’re pretty. Then again, I rarely ever meet men like that. I don’t hang out in the venues that attract these types (bars, clubs, etc.). Many women have very different views. All the praise Kat gets for “being honest” seems off to me. So I’m not being honest when I insist looks don’t really matter to me? It’s not a matter of me being a liar and Kat being honest. She is self-aware and so am I. A lot of women aren’t. Self-awareness is more important in this than anything, not so much honesty. Know what you like and own up to it, not for brownie points but because you know it’s true.
Wanda: I didn’t mean to imply that you were less honest about your personal feelings than Kat, I’m really sorry if I came across like that.
I was just trying to say that Kat had a different view that yours, and her view was one that a lot of “disregarded” men could recognize, so reading hers could maybe give an insight to what these men are feeling.
Also: Because not all women like assholes and not all men want sex. A large majority might like/want those things, true.
I think a lot of people make a mistake if they jump to the conclusion that a man don’t want sex just because he’s a considerate and generous person. It’s rarely a binary situation like that..
Oh no, I don’t think you implied that I was being dishonest at all. I just have found that that seems to be the overall “tone” to some of these conversations on GMP, that women are lying when they say they don’t go for good looking assholes. Some women may be lying; some may be telling the truth.
Also, it sounds like I’m saying not all men want sex when in fact I mean not all men JUST want sex. I assume most men want sex at some point, aha, just like most women. And honestly, I think there are a lot of good guys that get laid tons and are proud of that. Good for them, if they can have all the sex they want and be honest, decent people at the same time. I wish all “players” could do the same. We just tend to discuss the stereotype of the asshole guy who goes trolling for sex, since that’s often the stereotype we push against.
And I think a lot of the issues here is bot really about the guys that women chose to have casual sex with. I think it’s more about that a lot of women entering longterm committed (monogamous) relationships with men that they are not really (sexually) attracted to, and seemingly taking for granted that the man shares her feelings and expectations.
Well, this explains the first two dates. What isn’t covered is the relationships that go on with everybody, sometimes including the woman in question, agreeing the guy’s an asshole.
Whole ‘nother thing.
Like I said above, it doesn’t matter if you have a “dark triad” personality because just by getting the first few dates it doesn’t matter. Momentum carries you through to the part where everyone already knows you have a bad personality. Women in particular won’t want to give up on a relationship where they’ve already “given” the guy sex because they won’t want to admit that they were used by a bad guy.