The Appeal of “Bad Boys”

 Doctor NerdLove explains that what makes a “bad boy” so appealing isn’t his badness, it’s something even nice guys can do, too.

If there is one thing that men, especially nerdy, geekier men—men more prone to be Nice Guys and White Knights—will complain about when it comes to their dating problems, it’s that women don’t like “nice” men. No, frustrating the millions of men who heard “I wish I could meet a nice guy like you”1 and took it too much to heart is the way that the “bad boy” seems to win women’s hearts and loins.

There is no dating cliche older or more lingering than the appeal of the “bad boy”. One of the most defining characteristics of known rake Lord Byron is that he was famously “mad, bad and dangerous to know”.

Narcissistic. Drug abuser. Self-destructive.Unable to keep it in his pants. Perpetually running out of money. All he needed was to be in a band to get “bad boyfriend” yahtzee.

It’s a subject that I have talked about before: the idea that all women love assholes and that this is programmed into them genetically; after all, assholes are often more “alpha” than the Nice Guys who complain about them, therefore it is their inevitable destiny to fall for them… usually on their backs. Therefore the key to being more attractive is to be “bad”.

It’s a short-sighted solution that builds on a collection of mistaken assumptions reinforced by confirmation bias and poor understanding of human sexuality and evolutionary psychology… but it’s not entirely wrong.

In fact, the appeal of the “bad boy” is something that psychologists and sociologists have been interested in for quite some time. And it seems as though they may have found some interesting answers.

♦◊♦

I Told You I’m A Psycho…

It is unquestionable that men and women with certain negative traits personality traits seem to be more popular. We all remember the Queen Bee at the top of the high-school pecking order; the most popular girl in school, enforcing her will through manipulation and cruelty. Similarly, it seemed as though the douchiest of jocks were inevitably the Big Men on Campus. We can’t stand them… so why do assholes seem so popular?

Well, it turns out that three personality traits known as the “dark triad” are actually associated with being able to enhance a person’s physical attractiveness.

Although admittedly it sounds a lot like the McGuffin that Gannondorf steals in every installment of Legend of Zelda.

The so-called “Dark Triad” consists of three separate but overlapping personality traits – perceived as having similar underlying commonalities:

  1. Narcissism – defined as an overly developed sense of self-worth and entitlement matched with intense egotism.
  2. Machiavellianism – defined by the person’s reliance on manipulation to get what he or she desires without regard to others as well as a cynical dismissal of morality as “for other people”.
  3. Psychopathy – a loaded term; it doesn’t refer to a violent maniac, but to someone defined by reckless thrill-seeking, selfishness, lack of remorse and affect and a certain level of superficial charm

Scientists have known for a while that narcissism—for example—actually has direct correlation with initial popularity. In fact, a study conducted in 2010 by Mitja Back and Boris Egloff of Johannes Gutenberg—University of Mainz found that, upon first meeting them, people thought that narcissistic individuals were “flashier”, “more confident” and more immediately likable.
What made things interesting is a new study, conducted in 2012 by Nick Holtzman and Michael Strube of Washington University in St. Louis found that individuals whose personality types conformed to the dark triad were perceived as being physically more attractive than people who didn’t have darker personality aspects.

To test this idea, Holtzman and Strube invited 111 college students to participate in a study. The students – more women than men – were photographed in their usual clothes, then given grey, featureless sweatsuits to change into. Anyone wearing make-up was asked to remove it while anyone with long hair was asked to pull it into a ponytail. The idea was to take as neutral and natural a photo of the participants as possible as a control. Students were asked to answer a questionaire and rate themselves on a personality scale. To help counterbalance any errors introduced by self-reporting, Strube and Holtzman alsointerviewed acquaintances of the subjects about their personalities. From these results, the subjects were rated and scored with relation to dark triad personality types.

The photos of the subjects—both the dressed up and neutral shots—were then shown to strangers, who were asked to rate them in terms of physical attractiveness. Those who scored higher on the dark triad were consistently found to be more attractive by strangers than those who rated lower… but only when they were dressed up. When all of the subjects were wearing the sweat-suits and showing their more natural look, the influence of the dark triad personality type disappeared.

Heeeeyooooo… I got my haaaaaalo….

As it turns out, those individuals who ranked higher on the dark triad scale were better at making a better presenting themselves and knowing how to make themselves look better. Just as with the earlier narcissism study, those with darker personality traits were better able to cultivate their sense of style. They tend to wear edgier, more stylish clothes that make them stand out more2, wear a more fashionable hair style, have more confident body language and smiled more.

In short: they know how to make a better first impression than other people do. By knowing how to display themselves to their best advantage, they made themselves look better. By doing so, they take advantage of a phenomenon known as the “halo effect”: because they are perceived as being more physically attractive, we automatically assume that they’re also better people – kinder, smarter, more trustworthy, etc.

As a result: the more psychopathic or narcissistic you are, the better you are at conning people into thinking you’re actually a good person.
Y’know. Deep down.

Possibly very deep down.

So clearly the key to success in dating is to learn to become a functioning sociopath, right?
Wrong.

 

Also, There Are Downsides…

One thing that the Black-Etjoff study found is that the those people with dark triad personalities may make for great initial impressions but lousy long-term ones. In fact, their personal popularity tends to drop the more people get to know the real person behind the flash and smoke.

Y’see, the dark triad personality types are pre-disposed to short-term goals and thinking; they focus on immediate goals (“How do I get her in bed?”) and less on long term ones (“How do I get her to go out with me again?”) which hinders them in the long term… including financially. They’re much more likely to go for the immediate (and smaller) reward than for planning for a future (and bigger) one. They’re prone to stealing partners from others and are more likely to have substance-abuse issues and are known for having lowered standards—sometimes drastically—for sexual partners. The dark triad also has a correlation with excessive agression towards others, bullying behavior and racist attitudes.

It’s almost impossible to keep the charade up for very long; inevitably people will start seeing the man behind the mask and start realizing that he’s actually pretty damn repulsive.

This makes it rather difficult to maintain relationships for very long. Even if you’re willing to sacrifice the long term relationship on the altar of more frequent, no-commitment sex, people talk and social circles are smaller than you’d think. It doesn’t take very long for a reputation for being an asshole to spread and effectively limit your available dating pool.  Similarly, this is not behavior that ages well; time and gravity make fools of us all eventually and what can seem charmingly rakish at 20 quickly becomes boorish at 3o and just embarrassing at 40.

 

Finding Your Creamy Bastard Center

It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to women, it’s that traits that women find attractive are frequently found in assholes and narcissists.

This, in case you haven’t been paying attention, means that you can cultivate these traits to your own advantage without the negative aspects that come with them.

A person’s physical attractiveness isn’t binary; it can be affected by something as minor as overhead lighting vs. indirect lighting. Simple changes in posture can alter people’s perception of a person’s attractiveness. Even people who are considered conventionally beautiful often benefit from some external help.

Never underestimate the power of foundation and blush.

The people with high dark triad scores knew how to make a better first impression by crafting their look to their best advantage.

You can do this too.

 

Find Your Archetype:

Start by figuring out what your sexy stereotype is. Are you a rocker or a business tycoon? Do you aspire to be a modern dandy like Andre 3000 or are you more of a Mod? Find a base line look that’s congruent with your identity and use this as the foundation for everything else.

Cultivate Your Style:

Be willing to stand out and make a statement. Cultivate a style in line with your archetype and make it your own. This means that you have to be willing to take some risks and break out of clothes that—while psychologically comfortable—cause you to blend in with the herd. You may feel like you’re playing dress-up at first, but the more you try, the more natural you will find that it becomes.

Make Sure Your Clothes Fit Right:

Seriously, I can’t emphasize this enough. Clothes that are too baggy or too small make you look bad. Period.

Use Confident Body Language:

Narcissists, psychopaths and Machiavellians aren’t shrinking violets; they stand up tall and take up space. They want people know that they’re there. Everything about them screams “confidence”—their body language most of all. Even if you’re not feeling confident, adopting confident body language—standing up straight, letting your limbs relax, moving deliberately and with purpose—will help you fake it. Even more importantly, using more confident body language will make you feel more confident… and confidence is sexy.

SMILE.

For fuck’s sake, smile. A big, genuine smile that reaches your eyes. A friendly smile makes you much more attractive than a blank affect or trying to look “serious”. Part of George Clooney’s appeal is that grin—equal parts friendliness and mischief that promises stories you’ll be telling for years to come.

“Bad boys” may be attractive at the first glance, but only because they know how to sell themselves up front. They have to; they have no long game and they know it. The more skilled you become at creating an immediate positive impression in others the more of a leg up that you’ll have over those bad boys. You’ll soon find that you’re having levels of success that they could only dream of.

Not only will you have the style to make that great first impression… but you’ll have the substance to back it up.

 

  1. And ignored the silent “…who I would be interested in fucking.” []
  2. known as peacocking in PUA circles []

Originally appeared at Paging Doctor NerdLove

 

 

Lead photo courtesy of Flickr/Marco Raaphorst

All other photos courtesy of Paging Doctor NerdLove

NOW TRENDING ON GMP TV

Super Villain or Not, Parenting Paranoia Ensues
The Garbage Man Explains Happiness
How To Not Suck At Dating

Premium Membership, The Good Men Project

About Harris O'Malley

Harris O'Malley provides geek dating advice at his blog Paging Dr. NerdLove, as well as writing the occasional guest review for Spill.com and appearing on the podcast The League of Extremely Ordinary Gentlemen. He can be found dispensing snark and advice on Facebook and Twitter (@DrNerdLove.)

Dr. NerdLove is not really a doctor.

Comments

  1. Oh how do I love this article, let me count the ways :) on a psychological level I know these people who speak about. You hit the issue head on—especially so of the Dark Triad personality type that after a while appears to be …just a cocky, arrogant you know what. But, all in all we (women) fall for this type. What a shame! I’ve done it too! Thanks for the good read.

  2. “Bad boys” may be attractive at the first glance, but only because they know how to sell themselves up front. They have to; they have no long game and they know it.

    Or, they don’t have any long game because they don’t have to…?

    • Exactly. It is only a matter of willingness, rather than ability.

      Bad boys get both options. They get to have their fun AND they have long term relationships and make families too. Just like every ordinary woman gets both options.

  3. So, basically what you are saying is that the attractive “bad boys” aren’t all that bad, per se.
    They are just psychopathic or narcissistic instead.
    Yeah, that make all the sense now…


  4. It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to women, it’s that traits that women find attractive are frequently found in assholes and narcissists.

    Staying away from women that fail to recognize this would be helpful to guys that are trying to find their own groove as well. Because honestly some women just cannot or will not see the difference. Don’t get hung up on them.

  5. “those individuals who ranked higher on the dark triad scale were better at making a better presenting themselves and knowing how to make themselves look better…. In short: they know how to make a better first impression.”

    Agreed. But I notice that Dr. Nerdlove kinda zoomed past the obvious consequence: the first impression is the only chance that ANY of us, nice or nasty, ever get.

    “People with dark triad personalities may make for great initial impressions but lousy long-term ones. In fact, their personal popularity tends to drop the more people get to know the real person behind the flash and smoke.”

    And in order for her to get to know you, you had to make a positive first impression. The “dark triad” guys get that opportunity–the guys who didn’t never get a chance to show their better qualities that make for better long-term relationships, because they got eliminated at Step One.

    “It’s almost impossible to keep the charade up for very long.”

    But they keep it up just long enough to win the initial battle, after which there’s no competition… because the guys who AREN’T manipulative, selfish, narcissists have already been eliminated. First impression = ONLY impression.

    This makes it rather difficult to maintain relationships for very long.

    Read more at http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-appeal-of-bad-boys/#TdpJRD7Kbs9qqOKK.99

    • many bells and whistles are going off due to the correctness of this response.

      I had many girls be interested in me or really be into me after prolonged exposure (coworkers, classmates (college), just happened to be in the same social circle). Once these women got to (shock!) actually know me, and not just judge me on a first impression they actually started to like me and find me attractive.

      Let me now count the number of women who liked me at first meeting me, easy, two. Two out of the several dozens of women I tried to talk to actually were interested in me after a first impression. When I was “Internet” dating (Match and Yahoo Personals) I went out of quite few dates. Let me now count the number of second dates I ever had from that. ZERO.

      Short of kidnapping and locking these women up how was I supposed to make any type of long-term impression with these women? If we aren’t talking about coworkers or classmates than all that matters is the first impression! I knew my wife nine years before we even started dating, and she’s the first to admit the first time she met me she thought I was unattractive and not very interesting. Nine years after meeting someone probably isn’t going to happen for most people. Please let me know how there is any downside to the “dark triad”. They get what they want at the beginning and that’s all that matters because the momentum carries them into relationships anyway.

  6. Bay Area Guy says:

    The way I see it, guys should simply avoid the types of women who fall for bad boys or bad boy traits.

    Those women are either immature, insecure, or extremely shallow.

    It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to women, it’s that traits that women find attractive are frequently found in assholes and narcissists.

    Now there is one of the greatest apologetics for questionable female behavior if I’ve ever seen one.

    Let’s turn this around, shall we?

    “Men aren’t inherently attracted to young, hot 10’s. It’s just that certain traits men find attractive are often found in young, hot women.”

    Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it?

    • Yes.

      • There’s a difference, though. As a man you CAN take steps to work on your confidence, smile more, buy new clothes, and figure out who you are. As a woman, there is literally nothing you can do to stay 18 forever. There is no science for that. Nothing you can do.

        • You know damn well you dont need to be an 18 yr old to attract men.
          Im sure my 49 yr old mom can get laid easier than me (a 26 yr old guy)

        • Pray tell, then, what do you do to work on your confidence when every time you say “Hi” to someone they look straight through you as if you didn’t exist, and then walk over to stand in the crowd around that loud-mouth “jock” over there loving nothing more than the sound of his own voice…

    • I’m not actually sure it sounds that ridiculous.

      Sometime between the ages of 21 and 26 I stopped finding 18 years old attractive, no matter how conventionally “hot” they were. At a certain point, having a “perfect 10″ body shape just wasn’t going to make up for the immaturity that inherently comes with being 18.

      Looking at some of the other replies, notably Sarah’s, it seems like women might go through a similar process: dating the guys at 21 that they wouldn’t consider by 27.

      In some sense it’s not fair because society still stereotypes men as willing to go for 18 year olds no matter what, and that deserves discussion, but is also means that the statement “Men aren’t inherently attracted to young, hot 10’s” is completely true.

      • Women like to perpetuate this BS basically. They get a lot of sympathy for it. They love to PRETEND they are more forgiving to men on their looks. They love to pretend fat women have it worse than fat men in the dating/sexual scene. Its the other way round in reality

        They look at stick thin youthful models parading on their TV screens and like to beleive that men in real world, also dont want anything less than that. Nothing is far from reality.

    • I’d actually say the statement works with the same exact words and the genders replaced:

      “It’s like I’ve said before: it’s not a question of bad behavior or that being “bad” is inherently attractive to [men], it’s that traits that [men] find attractive are frequently found in [bitches] and narcissists.”

      I’ve seen many a dating book titled “Why Men Love Bitches” and the like. The men I know don’t like bitches, but there are very few conventionally attractive bitchy women I know that have any trouble finding dates. It’s the same for conventionally attractive assholes. Can we just agree that there are a whole lot of people out there we would never want to date because they fall for assholes/bitches? I wouldn’t be interested in a man that fell for that type of woman, so it’s not even worth lamenting over it. So I don’t know why men lament over the fact that they’ve lost a chance with the sort of woman who dates assholes. You’re probably better off for it, I think.

  7. Sorry to break this to you but, people continue to be attracted to bad boys because of those traits even after they get to know them more.
    People wish the attraction of a bad boy didn’t last, but they go on to have a girlfriend, get married and even have kids.

  8. I said this in the casual sex thread but I like the stereotypical bad boy for a one night stand because of all those qualities. When all I am looking for is a quick no strings attached hook up I want that arrogant narcissist. I don’t want to peel off the layers to get to know someone in that context. I don’t particularly care about who they are on the inside. The less work the better for me for a one night stand.

    For a relationship I’m more likely to go for the nice guy. Because I have time to peel back layers. In fact typically I don’t even consider a bad boy for a relationship if that’s how he first presents to me. When I feel like I’m open to a relationship I will go looking for nice guys. I hit on them. I work on getting to know them and conversations. Do the dating thing. It’s really hard to find where nice guys congregate honestly (I don’t do the bar scene that much and we don’t have stuff like coffee shops etc. where I live).

    But I’ll own. I do go for the bad boy for the strictly casual stuff.

    • wellokaythen says:

      Thank you for owning this. It’s very refreshing to see this openly discussed. I think it’s great that you point out that some women are looking for different things in different situations. The same person may be attracted to different kinds of things at different times.

    • Dr. Anonymous says:

      And then you complain that the sex was unsatisfying because he only focused on himself, and go out telling other men that they should focus more on the woman, because that would lead to more casual sex.

      • I’ve never complained that the sex was unsatisfying. For a one night stand the sex is, for me, usually quite satisfying because realistically in a one night stand situation I’m focusing on me. He can focus on him. In a relationship that would get old but I’m not looking for a relationship with the bad boy. Just a few hours of his time.

        • elementary_watson says:

          Well, if we assume that Dr. Anonymous used the general you, he does have a point: I’ve read several articles which boiled down to “Men, you want more women to be up for casual sex? Stop being seflish in bed!!One!Eleven!”

          Except that there may be a chicken/egg problem: Did female preferences kick the nice guys out of the casual sex game, or did women who dig nice guys get frustrated with the casual sex game after meating one bad boy too much?

    • elementary_watson says:

      Glad that you’re owning it, but un-glad that this means that nice guys are pretty much out of the casual sex game, if this is attitude is common amongst women (which I guess it is, at least among those women who are into casual sex).

      I don’t know if I’m that nice of a guy (but I mostly try to be friendly towards the people I interact with), and I’m certainly not long term relationship material, but if I were both of these things, I would feel less than flattered, probably even insulted, to learn that I was the kind of guy my partner would never have a one night stand with because of my lack of bad boy-ishness. I’d get the impression that my partner considers me to be boring but stable, kind of like a nutritional broccoli compared to the delicious juicy bad boy steaks.

      The way you worded makes me wonder whether you regularly go from long term relationships (with nice men) to phases of wild one night stands (with bad boys), or whether you just consider a long term relationship for some time in the future, when you will make sure that the guy is no bad boy. Actually, I’m wondering about a lot of aspects of your sex life that are none of my business, apologies.

      • I don’t typically hop from a relationship to sleeping around. I also go through periods of no sex and work on other stuff in my life. I’ve been busy with my career and college for the last while primarily where I couldn’t give a long term relationship or really any partner the attention that is deserved. Instead of being neglectful and trying to have it all so to speak I decided to focus on other stuff for awhile which has lent itself nicely to casual relationships. There have been some interludes between stints in college and at one point where a job mellowed out where I did go looking for a LTR but then got busy again. In my younger days I was more into open relationships and swinging relationships which also melded well with the one night stand world. Over the years I’ve examined at length what I look for in different situations instead of repeatedly trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

        I have a few reasons why I don’t like to do casual sexual relationships with nice guys (and it hasn’t been for lack of trying). Where I am lots of the nice guys tend to also be the shy guys. I have limited time on my hands and just as a practical thing not enough time to try to work the shy guy out of a shell. Lots of nice guys want me to know them as a person before sex (just like lots of nice women do I found… I have this same problem with nice women). While that works for a relationship I don’t really want to have these heart to hearts with people that are just going to be a one night stand. Lots of nice guys where I am (this may not be the universal rule hence why I qualify it) have a propensity to get attached. I’m not having casual sex to cause pain to people and having to tell someone who genuinely gets attached that really they were only fun for a night sucks. The dark triad people tend to not get attached, they don’t want to know me or me to know them beyond some surface stuff, are charismatic and don’t need to be shaken out of a shell. They just make a nice neat package deal for casual sex. But boy do they suck at relationships.

        And it’s not that nice guys are like broccoli so much as really the bad boys suck for relationships. And they really aren’t that great in the long term sex department either. A night of narcissistic sex between two strangers is great. A relationship full of it not so much. The sex I have during a casual encounter is not the same sex I have in a relationship (not that the relationship lacks passion but it’s different I give more and ask less in the relationship confines… totally doesn’t work with a bad boy). A nice guy is just as able to have a back bone and an edge and some dark triad traits but he is not a through and through that bad boy person. It’s not the extent of his personality in my experience. I gravitate to the nice guy for relationship for their multiple dimensions that I have the time to get to know instead of the one dimension of the bad boy.

        • I think this is interesting — I’ve never intentionally sought out casual sex or one night stands, or at least not since my early college days where I had a couple drunken, guilt-filled hookups. If I did decide that I wanted to find a guy for a one night stand, what qualities would I look for? I suppose I’d want a guy who was very attractive, who could show me a good time without a lot of hassle and not cause me any complications later. So I see where you are coming from. This is really no different that pickup artists who study how to target (a) the most physically attractive women (because why have casual sex with a homely woman, no matter how great a person she is, right? And (b) who are open to casual encounters (because you don’t want to waste time or have drama later when she feels attached).

          • elementary_watson says:

            I suppose I’d want a guy who was very attractive, who could show me a good time without a lot of hassle and not cause me any complications later.

            I just gotta ask: Are narcissistic macho posturing and sexual prowess in bed really that positively correlated, in women’s experience?

            I mean, I would have thought that a polite man who shows that he delights in giving pleasure to women would generally be a better lover, no matter if for one hour or for six months, than a jerk who wears his egotism on his sleeve. And wouldn’t cause anymore hassle than that drunken dude not waking up next to you next morning …

            Also, looking for casual sex partners based on nothing but looks and the apparent ease of getting rid of them seems like a stupid concept to me, or at least an alien one: If someone has a personality that I find totally grating, I don’t want to spend any time with them, no matter how hot they look, no matter what they would do with me in bed (and, again, I doubt any strong correlation between sexy looks and actual sexual skills).

            • well the thing is, I don’t look for casual encounters so I’m mostly speculating. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I did date several bad boy brooding musicians in my 20’s, but after that, I’ve tended to be in relationships with shyer, nerdier types of guys. I am, myself, a huge geek. This is the thing. Sex with a shy, insecure guy can be amazing — eventually. But my experience, it takes some patience to work through someone’s sexual insecurity, hangups and bad past experiences. My relationship with my current boyfriend took a long time to get started. He didn’t try to initiate sex anything physical until had been hanging out casually for 2 months. I actually had concluded he had no physical attraction for me and we were just friends. However, I was willing to make it romantic and see what happened. It was another 6 weeks before we had sex and it took about 3 months of regular sex before he could really relax and enjoy himself. We had to talk a lot about his sexual issues and some of his baggage from past relationships. Like a lot of guys with his personality type, he overthinks and intellectualizes everything. Today, we have absolutely amazing sex but it was a lot of effort to get there. He is an incredibly giving and unselfish lover and I love it. But the fact is, a lot of women would have given up on him and I have no doubt that’s a large part of his problems with women in the past. It was a lot of effort for me. He is actually a very physically attractive guy — 6’3″, built like a football player, great head of hair in his 40’s, beautiful eyes. Women flirt with him all the time. But he’d be tough to have a one night stand with. He’d miss all the signals and he wouldn’t know how to react. I bet women have tried to get him
              in bed and he didn’t even know it.

        • elementary_watson says:

          Thanks for your reply. I think it would make a difference to me if I were a nice guy who got into a relationship with someone who follows your philosophy that you actually made experiences when trying to hook up with nice men that showed you that it would only work in the long run.

          In other words: Hearing “Getting people like you to have casual sex is complex, and I only go for casual sex when I don’t have the time/energy for complexity in sexual matters” would make me feel like the game of go compared to bad boys being something more like Yahtzee. Far better :)

        • @Kat…

          I guess it kind of begs the question: Why would a nice man really want to be bothered with you at all. After all, you did not have the time to invest in him, so why should he invest his time in you?

          The reason these men are sexually awkward is because of a lack of sexual experience. But, I guess because women want what they want, when they want it, and feel entitled to such, they have no time for such men.

          But, when they feel their shelf life is nearing an end, they have all the patience in the world for these nice boys. Honestly, even after marriage women like yourself still have little patience or desire for the nice boys. Just ask the hoards of unhappy married men who are in sexless marriages suffering torment.

          I know that is the way it is. But, I think it is really horrible.

          • As I’ve said on other threads here, people constantly say that women get older and “figure it out” and are no longer interested in “bad boys”. This is very false. Women who love “bad boys” actually never figure it out. What happens is they age out of the age that the Alpha bad boys want. The women find out that once they are late 20s and 30s the “bad boys” (who they really are attracted to) are now dating the latest crop of 18-25 year olds.

            After that the women marry a “nice guy” and eventually become totally bored with them. They are cold to them sexually (because there’s no bad boy excitement), and eventually there is a divorce.

            These type of women don’t “figure it out” they just get too old for their beloved “bad boys” to want them anymore.

      • @elementary_watson

        “I’d get the impression that my partner considers me to be boring but stable, kind of like a nutritional broccoli compared to the delicious juicy bad boy steaks.”

        Yes, this is EXACTLY how these women see it. But of course they “love” you. So, even in the relationship they still do focus on themselves sexually. You are an afterthought. You will get sex only when she wants it (which will be infrequently). And the sex is going to be uninspired and lack enthusiasm.

    • @Kat…

      Thanks for being open and honest. Very very rare for women, in general.

      As I have learned the hard way in life, there are men whom women just want to screw. And there are men whom women want relationships and marriage. Usually, they are opposites.

      I am not criticizing this state of affairs. This is just the way it is. Oh well.

      I am a high status male but not a bad boy. Never been a womanizer…..Married 17 years and it was sexless and shitty.

      My only criticism is that women such as yourself admittedly want a nice guy for a relationship or marriage. Fine. OK. But, why is that women such as yourself are uninspired to perform sexually for these nice guys as you did for the bad boys?

      I just honestly wished a lot of women would stick to marrying the guys they REALLY want to fuck instead of getting the nice guys and treating them like shit sexually.

      JMO.

    • Aren’t you lucky you have the choice of casual sex or a relationship, or neither, as you like. We men wish we did, too.

  9. Inherently we have good and bad traits; it is how it’s used that comes across that defines the term. The difference is how morals are carried. The reason why we are so interested in bad boys/girls is their ability to get away with non-conformity while tending to look conformed to society. That is what makes them appealing. However, once you delve inside and they are figured out, they are like Superman hit with Kryptonite.

    Appearance is nothing as it goes away with time.

    I had dated both nice and bad boys before, and I lean towards long term goals since I am one myself- I prefer nerds especially ones that have glasses, to me they are the biggest teddy bears- but again it’s the personality inside that matters most.
    I do occasionally get to meet a bad boy who would try and seduce me. I think bad boys are the ones that have less happiness and confidence in themselves as to why they end up being seduced instead. And it’s very hard to leave as they tend to be clingy or raving mad at me afterwards.

    • Well Marifosque, you’re correct… non-conformity is an issue w/ the attraction to bad boys :) let’s even take this further and go back to James Dean—the one pic where he’s shown looking like a bad boy, women in those days loved it. Or even further back was the bad boy “Cowboy” which the Marlboro Man falls into this category. Women were able to escape the hands of the good guy, but fantasized about the bad guy from the images that were shown. I’m sure this had something to do with it.

  10. wellokaythen says:

    Sometimes I think the attraction to “bad boys” is not so much being drawn to what they do but being repulsed by the things they don’t do but other men do. It’s partly the fact that cocky behavior suggests that the man will NOT behave in some other ways that are real turnoffs. It’s being drawn to a lack of negatives maybe as much as being drawn to a positive.

    For example, the cocky narcissist or psychopath will probably not overwhelm you with whining about his life. He won’t look for you to fix his life or become his mother. When you’re done with him, you can count on him to move on without lingering or smothering you. It may be really hard to hurt his feelings. Sensitivity may be attractive, but oversensitivity usually isn’t. If you’re looking for a relationship with no strings attached, the ‘bad boy’ is probably tailor-made for you, because he probably is looking for the same thing.

    There is often a feeling of authenticity with men who are assholes and don’t seem to care that they are. They could be manipulative liars, but they are more likely to be “what you see is what you get.” If you’re looking for a wolf, it’s better to find one in wolf’s clothing than one in sheep’s clothing.

    Then again, never underestimate people’s desire to fix a man, rehabilitate him, or make him worthy of someone else’s love. That may also be part of the attraction to bad boys.

    • Dr. Anonymous says:

      “For example, the cocky narcissist or psychopath will probably not overwhelm you with whining about his life. He won’t look for you to fix his life or become his mother”

      I hear you have never met a narcissist. A narcissist will be totally absorbed with their failures and how it is always the fault of someone else that they failed.

      • wellokaythen says:

        To my mind there are different kinds of narcissists. There’s the moody, emotional black pit narcissist who will spend everyone’s attention rehashing his morose feelings. That sounds like the kind you mentioned. Then there’s the kind that I was thinking of, the cocky narcissist who appears to have very few feelings whatsoever, who is incapable of devoting any time to anything that sounds to him like whining. He’s too busy trying to get everything he wants out of other people to waste time on self-examination.

  11. I have dated nice guys and bad boys. My college boyfriend was very clingy, and after we broke up, he became obsessed with our breakup and practically stalked me for several years. That scarec me for awhile. I went through a phase in my 20’s where I only dated brooding musician types. Talk about narcissists! but at least I never had to worry that a breakup would crush them. However, their self involvement got tiring.

    Bad boys can be exciting but they are horrible in relationships. I got sick of the drama and the insensitivity, the drinking, the temper tantrums, the craziness. The thing with bad boys, they are never boring. The best partner is a good boy with a little bit of a bad side, just for fun.

    • I can see how Dr NerdLove weighs his words carefully, sugar coats them, before talking.

      • Feminists, and women generally, acknowledge the appeal of badboys, very reluctantly and grudgingly, if at all.

        It is therefore atleast refreshing to see a pro-feminist dating expert not only acknowledging this reality but actually encouraging men to adopt the traits of bad boys.

        Although I agree there are some inaccuracies in this article.

    • @ Sarah “The best partner is a good boy with a little bit of a bad side, just for fun.”

      Thing is you don’t determine what a guy does with his bad side, there are gonna be times when you’ll see his “bad side” as a negative and a positive.

      @wellokaythen “There is often a feeling of authenticity with men who are assholes and don’t seem to care that they are. They could be manipulative liars, but they are more likely to be “what you see is what you get.” If you’re looking for a wolf, it’s better to find one in wolf’s clothing than one in sheep’s clothing.”

      Society wants honesty at certain times but also wants discretion at certain times.

      For every woman who’s asked for honesty, there’s a guy who’s been honest and received shame and ridicule because of it.
      The bad boy doesn’t care if people aren’t ok with his honesty at certain times.
      They don’t care what people think, and that’s a trait every man should adopt if he wants to be successful with woman.

    • “The thing with bad boys, they are never boring.”

      Yes, the very common female belief that every minute of life is supposed to be a huge life changing adventure. When I had a Match profile I remember that nearly all women’s profiles talked about trips, adventures, outings, and not a lot about real life. It seems they expected life to be a never ending vacation. Of course the regular or “nice guy” is grounded in real life so they don’t bring any adventure to the table.

      Two stories:
      My first girlfriend in college told me I was the first “nice guy” she had ever dated. One and a half years in she starts complaining that I’m boring and starts cheating on me. Because I was a “nice guy” sap (and because she was my first GF every) I forgave her, but she eventually cheated again, once again saying I didn’t do anything exciting for her and I was boring. The last guy she cheated with brought her lots of adventure. He fought with her in public, followed her around town, got her pregnant, ended up punching her brother in the hospital the night she gave birth, and then moved away to another city never to be seen again saying “I’m not responsible for that kid”. I’m very happy she found all the fun and adventure I was never able to give her.
      Had a friend in college who was also a really good guy. Was with his GF for three years when she eventually tells him “you’re boring” and breaks up with him. Of course she had already met a “bad boy” where she worked and started dating him. He gets her pregnant and even at one point shoved her out of a moving car while pregnant. Of course she stayed with him. Adventure!

      American women’s love of “bad boys” comes down to the unrealistic expectations they have for how “real life” is supposed to go. I think all this biology talk is a just trying to legitimize the childish view of life many woman have.

      • Bay Area Guy says:

        Yes, the very common female belief that every minute of life is supposed to be a huge life changing adventure…American women’s love of “bad boys” comes down to the unrealistic expectations they have for how “real life” is supposed to go. I think all this biology talk is a just trying to legitimize the childish view of life many woman have.

        I’ve never really thought about it that way, but now that you say it, that makes perfect sense.

        I once heard a story from some guy on another blog about a how a young woman his friend knew was set up on a date by her parents with a guy. Even though he was a perfectly decent guy, she wasn’t “feeling him” and flat-out rejected him. She eventually ended up with him because her mom pressured him to give him a chance. She ended up marrying him, and is now in a happy marriage.

        As described by that commenter, it seems that many young women have unrealistic views about life and romance, and will completely ignore an otherwise good guy is he doesn’t have some kind of “swept off my feet” quality.

        It’s as if women expect their dating lives to be something out of an exciting romance novel.

      • By “bad boys are never boring”, I meant that they are unpredictable and therefore interesting, at least initially. After awhile, you realize that the patterns start to repeat (often destructively). The moodiness isn’t depth, it’s bipolar disorder. Skipping work because you partied all night doesn’t make you a free spirit, it makes you irresponsible. Having emotional meltdowns just means you probably need therapy to work through your childhood issues. The thing is, bad boys (and girls) create emotional drama that can be mistaken for an exciting zest for life.

  12. My SO and I have talked about this, or I should say she’s talked and said more than I think she knows. We’ve had this conversation twice. Both times there’s been some contextual prompt like a TV show or news of some male celebrity being…..bad.

    She described the appeal of “bad boys” and her description was like Kat’s above. She had a series of flings with men she described as exciting, almost like thrill rides. She tried making a marriage work with one, and I suspect that experience and age and serendipity led her to me.

    Each time this brief talk ended the same way. Looking at me tenderly but a bit quizzically, she said we probably wouldn’t been attracted to each other when we were younger. I didn’t speak or change expressions and just looked at her and the irony of her assumption about my feelings. A few seconds passed in silence, and she then said, “No, we were different then.”

    Neither time did I correct her. She seems to need to believe that what she said was as true for me as it was for her, and I suppose I need her to believe it too. Me, the gently spinning carousel she truly loves, turning in the shadow of a kick ass roller coaster.

    • @Adrian…

      “I suspect that experience and age and serendipity led her to me.”

      What’s really hideous about this you are essentially a default guy for her. In essence, you have acknowledged that you are a second class citizen.

      Once a woman has been on that “kick ass roller coaster” they never forget the thrill. That why they never bring the enthusiasm for sex to men who are like “gently spinning carousel.”

      Don’t kid yourself!

    • Sometimes it takes a while to realize what you truly want. As an inexperienced 19 year old, I had ideas, but it does take growing pains, experience, and life to figure out who and what fits you. There are people and situations I would have never considered when younger but would now–not any weird bad boy thing, but just a more open view of the world. I used to scoff and turn my head up at jocks and frat boy types. Now I know that they’re people too, who could have many layers. Heck, I didn’t even know what I wanted my major to be at 19. Not only that, but there are relationships that never would have worked when we were younger. I wasn’t ready in college for the kind of relationship that I’m ready for now. I would have been too immature and confused. I would have seen the grass as always greener. And likely, the guy would have too. I’ve seen young, inexperienced “nice guys” do just this. And to relish any type of female attention so much that they’re willing to hurt their partner.

  13. Dr. Anonymous says:

    And then you complain that the sex was unsatisfying because he only focused on himself, and go out telling other men that they should focus more on the woman, because that would lead to more ca

  14. Mr Supertypo says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hdEXA1ceaA

    The PUA’s have their own explanation about why women are attracted to the bad boys. It seems when men (or most of them) enjoy being the rescuer, women love being the fixer.

  15. That’s pretty much the size of it: part looks, part confidence. You need that to even get your foot in the door, so to speak: nice isn’t even a factor until that point.

    It’s really the same the other way. How many guys go looking for a “nice” girlfriend among the insecure and homely chicks? Only really insecure, homely guys.

    • @Evie….

      Believe it or not, I really like homely women. So long as they have not let themselves go, I find them very attractive. Also, they are more honest, loyal, and caring.

      I have never been a man who cared to go after “hot” women. Most of these women have slept with tons of men. I will pass. No interest whatsoever.

      One of my FWB is a very conservative and homely dressing woman. She wears no make up and has a very simple hair style. But to me she is attractive and pretty. She loves sex and we are great sex partners and friends. She is very intelligent (a pharmacist) and loves to read…

      I would much rather have this woman any day than these so called hot high mileage women.

  16. Bay Area Guy says:

    It’s really the same the other way. How many guys go looking for a “nice” girlfriend among the insecure and homely chicks? Only really insecure, homely guys.

    Not really.

    As long as a woman is somewhat good looking, most guys are going to at least give her a chance. Maybe later on they’ll decide that her bad personality isn’t worth it, but she’ll at least have a chance.

    If a guy has any kind of shyness of insecurity, he will forever be lonely, even if he’s good looking.

  17. WilliamHenry says:

    My intern is a young female engineering student who is very bright and attractive. I noticed the other day that she seemed a bit less upbeat than usual. Late in the day she came to my office and asked me for some advice about men (shock). She is 22 and I am 47 so I told her I couldn’t possibly relate to any issues she might be having in her personal life and wasn’t certain it was appropriate for us to discuss personal matters. She was very upset and asked (anyway) what was wrong with her and men. That she had a string of unsuccessful relationships I asked about the types of men that she was interested in and she described exactly the type of man mentioned in the article as being “dark triad”. I work with many types of men like this and I can certainly confirm that these men are often quite successful at getting what they want. The downside to these types are also as mentioned in the article, they usually are unable to commit long term to anything. I advised her, as I have my own adult daughters, that in the past, when those characteristics in a male were desirable as the female would have an inherent interest in mating with a male who could protect her and her children. That was a long time ago. Today, in the modern world, men who are well grounded in their careers and have long term goals are the ones that will provide long term stability. I am sure that was difficult for her understand considering her generation is one of instant gratification.

  18. i remember the whole madonna/whore thing that people slinged on men. That this is a sexual dysfunction.
    Can we say the same thing about Nice guys/bad boys?
    That women se average men as so disposable that they that a man have to be so far out tére to even get noticed as a sexual being?

  19. Nothing, NOTHING, makes me more suspicious of a woman who tells me she doesn’t like women because “there’s just too much drama”. It’s the very first clue that that woman is a drama queen. I’ve had all-female friends my whole life, and NEVER have I had drama. Ever. I am 23. UNBELIEVABLE I KNOW. It’s because I make friends with people who are not dramatic. Because I ACTUALLY hate drama.

    It struck me as interesting that some women like these type of men because “they keep things interesting/exciting”. It’s the same for men who date drama queens. You attract what you exude. So what’s odd to me is that we’re all standing around complaining about those women dating those men. So what? Do you WANT to date women who love drama? God, if I found out a man was attracted to drama queens, I’d be running the other way so fast. He’s fully entitled to his preferences, but that’s not what I would want.

    To me, it’s people complaining that they can’t attract people who would probably be a bad fit anyway. I don’t complain about the men I don’t like who aren’t attracted to me. Maybe as a woman I have a different perspective on this.

    Also, I think it’s funny when everyone’s shocked women are as shallow as men. We are not goddesses, people. We crap, fart, burp, and judge people just as harshly as men. Is it really shocking that women will date someone on looks alone? That they’ll turn men down because he’s got a mole in the wrong place? I hope one day we’ll stop expecting women to be awesome loving creatures and starting having super low expectations of them. It’ll make my life easier. Maybe then I can leave my house with unshaved legs and people won’t care, cuz women are hairy and gross naturally, amirite?

    • Bay Area Guy says:

      Also, I think it’s funny when everyone’s shocked women are as shallow as men. We are not goddesses, people. We crap, fart, burp, and judge people just as harshly as men. Is it really shocking that women will date someone on looks alone? That they’ll turn men down because he’s got a mole in the wrong place?

      I completely agree.

      Pass the memo to Nerdlove.

      The reason why his articles always generate such heated reactions from men is because he always operates under the presumption that women are in fact goddesses. Or the next best thing.

      There’s no such thing as women being shallow, creep shaming a guy because of his looks alone, etc. All of that is in men’s heads, and if they fail with women, they only have themselves to blame.

      • Sometimes I understand where he comes from, because both genders heap all this bitterness onto one another, explaining behavior as a “man” thing or a “woman” thing. “Well, women just like assholes!” and “Men just want sex”. Once we start talking about genders as collectives, that’s when tempers start flaring. Because not all women like assholes and not all men want sex. A large majority might like/want those things, true. But the reason these articles come into existence is because of the assumptions. I think NerdLove is trying to fix the assumptions and stereotypes. I just think it could be done in a much shorter, concise way.

        Everyone has the potential to be an asshole. Everyone. No one is entitled to treat you better than the next guy because you’re nice, because you’ve got nice clothes, because you offer sex on the first date, because you’re rich. People get mad at women for not being nice, women get mad at men for not being nice. But no one HAS to treat you well or indulge your desires. Their behavior is their responsibility, not yours. If they want to be assholes, then they can assholes. The sooner you know it, the less time you waste with them. Women can be shallow jerks. If people start realizing this, they’ll be less angry when they realize that a woman is a shallow jerk. They’ll be able to move on.

        Feminism to me is the idea that women are people. Often crappy, jerkish people. Just like men. Equality, yo. It’s awesome. :D

    • @Wanda:
      To me, it’s people complaining that they can’t attract people who would probably be a bad fit anyway. I don’t complain about the men I don’t like who aren’t attracted to me. Maybe as a woman I have a different perspective on this.

      Read the posts by signature Kat above. She seems to have less of a problem swinging between the different types of men she at the moment sees fit to date and engage in different activities, including but not limited to intimate ones ;-)
      So yes, probably you and (many?) other woman have a different perspective on this, since most everybody seems to steep men more firmly into the one camp or the other.

      • I respect where Kat is coming from, but as someone who has absolutely no interest in casual sex, I cannot understand that particular outlook. I would not be able to swing from one type to another, as I cannot stand narcissists and assholes, even if they’re pretty. Then again, I rarely ever meet men like that. I don’t hang out in the venues that attract these types (bars, clubs, etc.). Many women have very different views. All the praise Kat gets for “being honest” seems off to me. So I’m not being honest when I insist looks don’t really matter to me? It’s not a matter of me being a liar and Kat being honest. She is self-aware and so am I. A lot of women aren’t. Self-awareness is more important in this than anything, not so much honesty. Know what you like and own up to it, not for brownie points but because you know it’s true.

        • Wanda: I didn’t mean to imply that you were less honest about your personal feelings than Kat, I’m really sorry if I came across like that.
          I was just trying to say that Kat had a different view that yours, and her view was one that a lot of “disregarded” men could recognize, so reading hers could maybe give an insight to what these men are feeling.

          Also: Because not all women like assholes and not all men want sex. A large majority might like/want those things, true.
          I think a lot of people make a mistake if they jump to the conclusion that a man don’t want sex just because he’s a considerate and generous person. It’s rarely a binary situation like that..

          • Oh no, I don’t think you implied that I was being dishonest at all. I just have found that that seems to be the overall “tone” to some of these conversations on GMP, that women are lying when they say they don’t go for good looking assholes. Some women may be lying; some may be telling the truth.

            Also, it sounds like I’m saying not all men want sex when in fact I mean not all men JUST want sex. I assume most men want sex at some point, aha, just like most women. And honestly, I think there are a lot of good guys that get laid tons and are proud of that. Good for them, if they can have all the sex they want and be honest, decent people at the same time. I wish all “players” could do the same. We just tend to discuss the stereotype of the asshole guy who goes trolling for sex, since that’s often the stereotype we push against.

        • And I think a lot of the issues here is bot really about the guys that women chose to have casual sex with. I think it’s more about that a lot of women entering longterm committed (monogamous) relationships with men that they are not really (sexually) attracted to, and seemingly taking for granted that the man shares her feelings and expectations.

  20. Richard Aubrey says:

    Well, this explains the first two dates. What isn’t covered is the relationships that go on with everybody, sometimes including the woman in question, agreeing the guy’s an asshole.
    Whole ‘nother thing.

    • Like I said above, it doesn’t matter if you have a “dark triad” personality because just by getting the first few dates it doesn’t matter. Momentum carries you through to the part where everyone already knows you have a bad personality. Women in particular won’t want to give up on a relationship where they’ve already “given” the guy sex because they won’t want to admit that they were used by a bad guy.

  21. “No, frustrating the millions of men who heard ‘I wish I could meet a nice guy like you’ and ignored the silent ‘…who I would be interested in fucking’ […]”

    Just a hunch – Could it be that they ignored it because it was, you know, um… Silent?

    It might come off as a surprise, but most men aren’t telepaths. If you say “i’d love to met someone like you” and don’t add the “who I found hot” conditional, men will go and think “Huh… You met. Me.” And then will proceed to wonder why they weren’t qualified. And honestly, I can’t fault them if they end up assuming “Well, then she must be lying. She didn’t want a man like me after all”. That’s the heart of the “Women Claim To Like Nice Guys But Actually Like Assholes” debacle. You can’t pass half of a message and expect men to understand the entirety.

  22. A few people on the previous commenting page have noted that sometimes women get into relationships with dark-triad assholes and stay in those relationships, go on to get married and have kids, and even admit themselves that their boyfriends/husbands are jerks.

    As a woman, my observation on this is that the women in these relationships are often, for lack of a better description, willfully pulling the wool over their own eyes. Some of them operate under the belief that any relationship is better than no relationship at all. Some of them actually thrive on the drama, the unpredictability, and ‘excitement’ (not always fun) that their partner brings to the table. Some of them are Stockholmed, suffering under the behavior and attitudes of their partner but still adoring & forgiving. Some of them even end up in abusive relationships that they refuse to leave. And rarely, the woman herself is also kind of a jerk and isn’t bothered by her partner’s behavior & personality.

    I get the sense that the men who complain about this are also somewhat guilty of that first thing – believing that any relationship with any woman is better than no relationship at all. The women who stay with assholes have their own issues. You probably wouldn’t want to be in a long-term relationship with them. Some men see that assholes can reel in more fish and go home with a full cooler and are envious, without realizing it’s a whole cooler of fish you probably wouldn’t want to eat if it were your cooler.
    Wow. I should never try fishing metaphors.

    • I don’t think the issue is really so much about women having relationships with dark-triad assholes, or who they chose chose to have casual sex with.
      I really think it’s more that a lot of women seem to enter long-term committed, supposedly monogamous relationships with men that they are not really sexually attracted to, but deeming other qualities more important, and seemingly taking for granted that her view of the importance of sexuality in the relationship is mutual and reciprocated.

      • @FlyingKal

        “….and seemingly taking for granted that her view of the importance of sexuality in the relationship is mutual and reciprocated.”

        Yes, and then these women convince themselves or pretend to convince themselves that the man shares her view of sexuality in the relationship. It is this unilateral thinking that causes much of the problem.

        I really believe that many women just do not feel nice guys either deserve or desire much sex.

        • Mr Supertypo says:

          i think that bad boys maybe trigger certain fantasies in women, just like sexy women does that at least to me. I dont know for others.

          So maybe a bad boy for some women are sexy? if thats the case be a bad boy for one night. Be the Fonz *hey* *thumbs up* ;-)

          ps

          I dont know if the Fonz fall into the category of bad boy :-/

          • Mr Supertypo:
            i think that bad boys maybe trigger certain fantasies in women, just like sexy women does that at least to me. I dont know for others.

            So maybe a bad boy for some women are sexy? if thats the case be a bad boy for one night. Be the Fonz *hey* *thumbs up* ;)

            Yes. Well. That is probably true.
            However, my concern here is not so much what “arbitrary” women (i.e. the ones I’m not with ;) ) do on their sexy time and who they chose to spend it with. It is more what the one woman I AM with, wants to do and why she doesn’t find me attractive or worthy of having sex with.

      • @KKZ, I don’t think it’s a matter of “pulling the wool over their eyes.” It’s called being in an abusive relationship. Don’t forget that narcissists tend to prey on people who are vulnerable, and that narcissists are expert manipulators. By the time a woman realizes she’s being abused, her abuser has control of so many aspects of her life, such as finances and children, that it makes it extremely difficult to leave. It’s not a “love the drama” situation 99% of the time!

  23. Yes, having a sense of style is important, but when the clothes (and make up) come OFF, there better be some substance under all that wrapping. Cultivating confidence and a pleasing personality should be the higher priority.

  24. J. Sclafani says:

    Wait a minute. I can clear this up very easily.

    NICE GUYS DON’T FINISH LAST- WOMEN ACTUALLY WANT NICE GUYS.

    BUT THERE IS A CAVEAT, SO BEAR WITH ME HERE:

    Yes, many misinformed women like a man who is a bit macho simply because they don’t know any better.

    And it is not always the young women who are guilty of this mistake.

    Women who should know better, still repeat the same scenario of dating a macho man and then complaining when he acts- well, macho-but in a totally idiotic way. Can you say PUTZ?

    These women have macho and manly mixed up.

    Like seriously mixed up-which is why their own dating decisions are poor.

    These young girls/ women seriously don’t know how to discern between genuine, natural manliness which comes across effortlessly vs the guy who is a perpetual, macho jerk that treats her poorly.

    The less enlightened girls/ women get the notion of manliness confused with Mr. Macho Meathead and therefore, you do have a significant amount of girls/ women gravitating to the worse possible examples of men as dating partners or significant others.

    The fact that they date these losers( even if they are hot looking losers/ rich losers,etc.) and then become confounded about why the relationship sucks or never progresses to the next level, is actually sad and laughable at the same time.

    They are utterly clueless about what they are doing to attract the wrong kind of men. CLUELESS!

    It then becomes an issue of blaming themselves for the cruddy status of the relationship and their man’s behavior ((these women all too often have poor self esteem) or they then paint the state of all men with a broadbrush and you get the ” all men are jerks” refrain from them. Usually this is spouted and pouted, after the most recent episode of being treated like crap.

    So unfair. So ridiculous. Yet tragic and comical all at once. These are the ladies that need to get a clue. It is not all men out there ladies- it is YOU.

    If they do not do some serious self introspection about their behavior, wants and needs- if they don’t learn from their own dating experience, they then end up spending their lives regretting every macho man they pin their hopes on, and forever feeling let down .

    (But really- whose fault is it anyway?)

    Wait!
    There’s more!

    Real women with intelligence, some decent experience in dating men and the ability to read a man’s true character, DO have a reason for passing up on nice guys- even though that is exactly what they are looking for.

    You know why? Because women want a nice guy- not a doormat!

    We come equipped with a better doormat radar than an “avoid the macho idiot” radar.

    I know, I know- but who said life was fair?

    There is a world of difference between a truly self respecting nice guy and a doormat, and most women can sniff out the difference like a shark can smell blood in the water from 10 miles away.

    By observation of a man’s behavior, she pretty much can size up a door mat in New York minute and regardless of where a female is from, the majority of them are not turned on by doormats.

    Honestly- should anyone be? Female doormats are a turnoff for men, too!

    Women want gentlemen who respect them and whom respect themselves.

    If you are a nice guy who is not having any luck with finding a nice gal- reexamine your dating behavior.

    It would be a dissertation to outline the differences between a secure gentleman- a real nice guy who has a lot to offer a gal,versus a doormat.

    But I will say that the doormat often has self esteem issues- which is why , while probably a nice person, he gets labeled a doormat.

    So, let me reiterate it one more time: We want nice guys- we really do.

    Most of us want gentleman that are manly- not macho.

    But we don’t want doormats…..and really, in either sex- why would anyone want to date a doormat ; much less get serious with one?

    As for the tips on dressing? Or what kind of car one owns? Where you live?The kind of work you do and the salary you make?

    All that materialistic stuff?

    In the end, to a nice girl, that means zip if you turn out to be either a macho jerk or a mega doormat.

    Gentlemen? Welcome. But doormats need not apply.

    Are you a nice guy who unfortunately happens to be a doormat? Think on it.

    A bit of a boost to your self esteem can get you out of the doormat zone and into dating suitable women who will be very into you, but this is something you must learn for yourself.

    Being a macho putz is bad. But being a groveling “good guy” door mat is not much better.

    • “Most women can’t handle the men they say they want.” ~Ayn Rand

      That pretty much sums it up. Conditioned from birth to feel unworthy, women reject “the good” for ” the bad” because it feels more familiar…I feel sorry for most of the 70 or so, women I’ve gone out with in the past six years…it’s a shame.

    • J. Sclafani

      “The majority of women are not turned on by doormats.
      Honestly- should anyone be? Female doormats are a turnoff for men, too!”

      Really? female doormats (read women with low self esteem) have no problem getting laid. Infact they often end up getting laid more than other women and more than they wanted

    • This this a thousand times this :)

  25. J. Sclafani says:

    @ Patrick.

    I hear you but please know this: Many women have male friends they absolutely adore as wonderful guy pals but who they are not physically attracted to. Can we fault them for that?

    You can’t make yourself like someone- love someone or find them attractive. In fact, I tend to find that many men ( but not all) are a bit harsher on their criteria for looks/sexual attraction when it comes to deciding to date someone- particular those on dating sites or those being set up on a blind date.

    You can tell because while many women will show up to meet a man site unseen- very few men will.
    They want a photo first. And they will make a snap judgement on a photo where women, having seen a photo or not, often give a guy a chance.

    Sometimes, while not initially attracted to a man, if he has a great personality or a certain aura about him, he starts to become more and more attractive. So women will take that chance far more often than men.

    ( Not man bashing- just telling you exactly what the stats will say and from having done the blind date scenario far more than I care to remember as well as the internet dating scene)

    Ideally, in my opinion, a great relationship starts as an innocent friendship, with no expectations and then blossoms into something more. It seems like that happens most often in the movies than in real life but I don’t think it is impossible.

    Yes, it is romantic, idealistic thinking- but what is so bad about that?

    As for women who offer up the comment you mention in your post?

    Either they really are dropping a hint to the guy or they are committing the sin of complimenting him ( on other important qualities like personality, morals, etc) but also letting him know, subtly( with silence) that they do not consider them romantic material.

    I consider that silence to be about as subtle as a brick. It is wrong to do this.

    Since this can be hurtful- it is better to not even say it, especially on the chance the guy DOES feel attracted to the female saying it.

    It is SILENT REJECTION but it hurts just as much as someone saying” Sorry, you are a great person but I don’t feel any attraction ” Ouch :-(

    That being said, if a woman does mean what she says and IS interested, she should make it very obvious in case the guy doesn’t pick up on her HINTS or feels like he is getting mixed signals ; which will then lead him to doubting himself or analyzing her words for meaning.

    Women assume men “know” what they mean and men often are baffled by what women say.

    No wonder the two sexes run into communication problems.

    I think people are pretty intuitive as a rule- but how intuitive varies by the individual.

    Directness is great- especially when what you have to say to someone, is a nice thing.

    But one kind of havs to take the bitter with the sweet.

    So if you like directness and someone is direct, you have to handle the straightforward rejections that may come your way. This applies to both sexes.

    I would rather know where I stand, then hope for something that will never be.

    I think men feel the same. At least they claim so.

    I cannot count how many times guy friends complained to me” If only she had just said she wasn’t interested instead of avoiding my calls”

    • I’m, sorry, but… I don’t get how you answer relates to my comment at all? Not trying to be snarky here, I really don’t.

      My point was only that, in this particular article but also in some of his other pieces, Dr. NerdLove puts the burden on men to hear what women don’t say, and then imply they are stupid if they don’t. And that’s… Not helpful at all. Actually, it’s the exact opposite. That’s all.

    • Just wondering where to find the kind of woman you describe ?? Because the ones I’ve been come across are exactly the opposite and will in fact decide on looks / size if they are interested in a guy.

  26. cashdoller says:

    Listen it’s pretty simple actually, you have three types of males.

    1. Alpha Males – these are the type of men that fuck about all the hot women on the market. They compose maybe 15-20% of the adult male population. You can be alpha by default by having a lot of money, fame, power, prestige – which usually takes alpha qualities to attain and hold on to that status in the first place. OR you can just be a regular guy but have game. Without game, no hot girls. That’s just how it goes and no matter what you want to write or think it’s going to continue to be like that in THIS society because of the concept of the empowered modern feminized female. The entitlement breeds a form of narcissism which breeds these types of guys practically having a field day on all the hot girls.

    2. Beta males – you can thank these guys for society and civilization – they score girls, but usually it falls on their lap. They are unaware of how the modern feminized female works. They hold on to the idea that you meet someone and you both like each other and things and you date, go steady, you know just like high school. Little do they know that this girl they just met and are dating who is most likely under their “league” a bit has already fucked double the amount of girls he’s fucked. And she isn’t really able to hold on to a serious relationship because of all the damn options out there. That is, if she’s even a bit attractive. If she’s fat and ugly then he’ll be unhappy and he’s in for a disaster. These men don’t have game, or very little if they do. THey cerainly don’t willingly apply it. These are the men that women who are past the wall (30) usually date because they can’t get an alpha anymore.

    3. Omega Male – the fat nasty introverted pizza eating dungeon and dragon slaying greasy haired computer programmer who had sex with two really gigantic girls back in 1997. Since then he’s been growing his hair out in dedication to Master of Puppets – his favorite Metallica album. He hates everything that happened after Kurt Kobain sung about teen spirit and has Slayer on repeat on his Rio MP3 player that he uses in his bathroom attached to a radio while he takes a 4 hour shit. These poor souls need to be reborn.

    • your view of men (yes, men) is reductive and sexist. What’s the point of labelling yourself negatively?

      • Peter von Maidenberg says:

        I can actually relate. If you don’t feel you live up to society’s idea of manhood – or you don’t buy into it at all (which is my situation) – you’re going to have to lump a lot of negative self-image. And one way to get thru the day, given that reality, is to deflect it onto men as a group. I resent men a lot more than I do women.

        Where is that getting me, you might ask? Thru the day, alone. I have a ways to go, but I know it’s going to have to get a lot worse before it starts to get better.

  27. “I just gotta ask: Are narcissistic macho posturing and sexual prowess in bed really that positively correlated, in women’s experience?

    I mean, I would have thought that a polite man who shows that he delights in giving pleasure to women would generally be a better lover, no matter if for one hour or for six months, than a jerk who wears his egotism on his sleeve. And wouldn’t cause anymore hassle than that drunken dude not waking up next to you next morning”

    It is because they are DOMINANT in bed and women are attracted to dominant men.

    • My personal opinion, as a woman, is it’s really a turn-off if a guy is macho. there IS a certain type of woman who goes for macho men, often from working class areas, but they are definitely not the majority. Women tend to like confidence, which is not the same thing. macho guys do tend to act confident, but so do lots of non-macho guys. It’s the self-confidence that attracts. And, obviously, looks matter, just as they do for men (though probably matter less for women generally). But yes, looks matter, as the research pointed out, learning how to look your best can raise your chances. It’s amazing how many guys put no effort at all who could look quite cute and stylish if they tried a little.
      I find macho guys a turn-off because I don’t imagine they would be very good in bed and I’d be worried they might hurt me. Anyways, I’ve found that respectful, smart, more bookish guys can be really wild in bed. Respectful men make the best lovers because they actually listen to what you want instead of making assumptions like macho guys do.
      Also, for the record, not all women want to be dominated, even in the bedroom. there is such a thing as a dominant woman.

    • Cashdoller says:

      That’s what I always thought too. I’m sure it’s on a sliding scale as the selection is large. But generally alpha’s are confident and score all the hot chicks for a reason. Confidence goes a long way when your plugging away at another hot babe after another successful score.

      As far as being dominated, the hot girls love to be dominated. You’ll get the artsy dumpy alternative chicks into all types of stuff. But those smoking hot girls you only dreaam about putting your dick in all need and crave domination. It just goes with being super feminine, which is what they are at their core.

      • Peter von Maidenberg says:

        You either have massive confirmation bias, or your experiences are limited. Either way, you are being simpleminded, shallow, and demeaning.

        Keep right on ignoring the artsy alternachicks, however. More for guys like me, and they can be incredibly sexy, unless one has the issue I suspect you have – the Vespa syndrome (fun to ride but what would the bros say?)

  28. J.Sclafani says:

    @ cashdoller

    Whoa- you actually sound like a man who doesn’t like your own sex or you are a female who is totally disgusted with the opposite sex.

    Your input is interesting, though it does come across as disparaging to a large percentage of men in the world.

    (Speaking of the world- we also need to keep in mind cultural differences within men around the globe because it really does affect their behavior and attitude toward women and relationships.)

    While a percentage of what you write is true about Alpha Males( not sure what percent)- I could never put males in just 3 broad based categories. It is grossly unfair.

    If you are a male- you make me wonder where you place yourself on the spectrum?

    There are so many men out there- and so, that means many personality types which equals differing behavior and quirks.

    Which male was supposed to be the one the decent women should bother with out of your 3 selections of male types? Because they all looked like pretty lame. What a dismal proposition if the real world were really like this- 3 cruddy categories of men to choose from. :-(

    In truth, despite my personal feeling that the 3 selections are lame, there is no right or wrong answer to the question.

    It can’t be answered either, because each women has her own agenda- desires -needs.

    Many women are looking for a guy NOT offered in your 3 categories.

    Sure, some might want number 1, 2 or 3(for whatever reason) and many will want none of the above.

    I think you get the idea.

    Even if I was a goddess on all levels, I would not- NOT- want an Alpha male.

    You could not pay me enough money to date or marry an Alpha.

    Your Alpha male sounds like a macho entitled putz and, whoever is attracted to him and tries to form a *meaningful relationship* with him, deserves what they get.

    Which will be a whole not of nothing.

    Oh, other than a ton of ego from this Alpha Narcissist.

    This is the ME- ME- ME guy.

    Savvy nice women know to avoid this type and they can usually spot them pretty quick, unless Mr. Me Me Me happens to be a great actor in luring women into their lair by seeming like a GENUINE NICE GUY WHO HAPPENS TO HAVE IT ALL.

    But even if they front initially, you can only keep the act going so long before you are found out.

    A jerk is a jerk. You can bet that side gets exposes pretty quickly.

    As it is, being a female who actually has a brain, I get very turned off by men who try to dominate me ( Put them in any category you want, because men have various reasons for wanting to be dominant over a woman).

    Even if it is a first meeting in a group setting, and we start off with harmless conversation,it is hard not to pick up on his need to beat me with knowledge- top me in achievements- talk over me when trying to make a point rather than allowing a mutual exchange of ideas, etc.

    It all comes out because they can’t screen that part of themselves very well.

    I have no need to control people, so naturally I DON’T like people who like to control or dominate others.

    Maybe another female would find this bossiness attractive. Good luck to her.

    ****NOTE TO POSTER TOMMY: Dominance in the bed is different than having a personality that is largely dominant. And besides-even sexual dominance has it ranges. As many women might appreciate the man taking the lead in the bedroom- there are probably just as many women who don’t like the guy taking the lead all the time.******

    Point is- in this * personality type*, the nuances are there and I can tell by the conversation turns he takes, that he is seeking to *squash* me.

    If I was a guy conversing with this clown, I would probably end up in a fist fight with this type of guy- but since I am female, I just opt to get away from such an annoying, overbearing moron.

    If this is what he is like on first meeting just having harmless conversation in public- what is this guy like to date or live with?

    Being involved with a guy like this is my idea of a form of hell( your alpha males).

    I learned how hellish it can be in my very early 20’s. Never forgot it. Often, these males are also abusers and they never change.

    So, if a female notices dominance and a lack of respect shown toward her early in the game, the best thing she can do is run and don’t look back.

    The Number 3 males you described are social misfits who are often bitter because their life didn’t quite turn out like they hoped. They do exist, but then so do a zillion other types of guys.

    These are 3 pretty unflattering categories if you analyze the description offered up.

    By the way- when I initially posted here, I was considering the argument of Macho Jerk VS Genuine Good Guy VS Doormat, to refer to men who actually want a relationship with a female- not just sex.

    It was also to promote the idea that genuine good guys do not finish last- but doormats do.

    • Even if it is a first meeting in a group setting, and we start off with harmless conversation,it is hard not to pick up on his need to beat me with knowledge- top me in achievements- talk over me when trying to make a point rather than allowing a mutual exchange of ideas, etc.

      The thing with these Alpha males is not so much that they are trying to dominate the women in the group setting at the first meeting, as they are constantly trying to dominate and topping the other men in the same setting. And THAT is something that most women either seem to be totally oblivious to, or find totally attractive..

      • J. Sclafani says:

        @ FlyingKal.

        Actually that scenario does unfold as well. Men trying to best each other in a public setting.

        However, I have had this happen to me even on a one on one situation with a dominant male, where there is no competition around.

        My opinion is dominant is dominant is dominant. If that is the personality type- it rarely ever changes.
        If there is no one to show off to and they do it, safe to say, they are naturally dominant.

        Though I admit and agree, that a male can temporarily go into that dominant mode for the reasons you described in your post. You are definitely perceptive.

  29. I think that women that need a “bad boy” for casual sex is probably kinda sucky in bed. Think about it.
    you need a guy that does the most of the work because you youself just don’t know what too do.
    That’s why it seems that promiscious women have a more “natural” view of men. They know that they only need a normal man that can contribute 50% of the sexual confidence and she can give the rest.

    If this theory is true I feel sorry for the poor saps that get’s into long term relationships with the sexualy unconfident women. Not that fun to do all of the work.

    • @Nistan….

      I feel sorry for poor saps who get into long term relationships with women, period. I was one of these poor saps, so I can speak from experience.

      It is not that many of these women are lacking in sexual confidence. They want the good sex from the “bad boy” while searching for the poor sap the get into a relationship. The good sex is the driver for the bad boy. But, because women value relationships more so than men, the relationship is center of attraction for the poor sap. That why the sex is so crappy with these women when you enter into a long term relationship with them.

      Until men stop falling for this dynamic, it will continue unabated.

      • cashdoller says:

        How do you figure women value relationships more than men?

        Over 2/3 of divorces are initiated by women in the US.

        • @sachdoller…

          I mean they are more relational than men. Relationships in this context is all (including female friends etc). Not dating relationships per se.

          Sorry for the confusion.

    • Nistan

      I do agree that promiscuous women do not require men to put all the effort, but they are attracted to fewer men to begin with. A woman out there just to have casual sex and flings will usually only consider a small slice of men she deems physically attractive.

      On the other hand a woman looking for dating and relationships will consider a larger number of men and is likely to be more forgiving to men on looks. For ordinary looking men the only option would be to make themselves more acceptable to these women for the purpose of dating & relationships.

      I also disagree that confident and promiscuous women are less obsessed with ‘oozing levels of confidence’ in men. Infact I’ve observed that confident woman want even more confident men. Men who can atleast measure up to them. A confident woman will never give a guy with less confidence a chance.

      • cashdoller says:

        Hey Keith, it isn’t the looks that women care about as a whole. It’s the power they portray. Or in other words, just how much of a true alpha they are.

        In fact the hotter the female, the less effort she puts into finding a man for a relationship. This is because every man (she thinks) is offering himself to her. Every alpha is scoring her in bed is the reality. And this small slice of the population of men (probably 10-15%) is what her idea of what a man is.

  30. In the photos above I think the redhead looks better in the no make-up shot.

    And the only reason the black haired girl looks worse in the no make-up shot is she looks like she rubbed her eyelids.

    Also both right-side pictures are obviously airbrushed on top. Unless they put shiny foundation on their shoulders.

    The right-side pictures look obviously artificial, and not-for-me. Good for a show, or very occasionally. You look like that every day and I don’t even want to be your friend.

Trackbacks

  1. […] research, as reported by The Good Men Project, finds that personality traits named the “dark triad” are correlated with physical […]

Speak Your Mind

*