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I dared disagree with Amanda Marcotte in that conversation. Because I did so, she went on to claim that I “police” women, don’t allow them to feel anger, cast aspersions on my marriage and then told me I was “gross.” Go ahead, look it up. It’s right there.
I never personally attacked her, I certainly didn’t tell her how to feel & I would never presume to question the nature of her romantic relationships. Yet I was somehow fair game, all because I had a differing opinion. Because apparently with feminists like Marcotte, if you’re not with them 100% or if you question even a part of their “logic,” you’re against them. And it’s open season.
Feminism, to me, is about equality. Equal pay, equal rights, equal treatment, etc. In that vein, I am absolutely a feminist. Hell, I feel that way about everyone so technically I believe that would make me a humanist. So feminism = good. Some feminists on the other hand, not so much.
A lot was made of the word “wrath.” If you cant’ see the wrath readily apparent in that conversation, then you’re blind. That, along with the condescending sarcasm, derision and pompousness in which their words are soaked, repels moderates who would ordinarily be allies. So if the goal is to alienate, well done. Mission accomplished.
Normally I’m a big fan of having a discussion take place and trying to take something away from both sides. In this case, not so much. You’re with them or against them. Which is unfortunate.
I find it offensive that you claim feminism is about equality.
You say feminism is for equal pay? If you’ve discussed that issue much you know that feminists actually demand equal pay for women who don’t work as hard as the men they are compared with. You know they dishonestly misrepresent the figures.
You say feminism is about equal rights. So explain to me why the feminist movement lobbied congress to pass a sexist bill that discriminated against male victims of domestic violence in the 1990s (Violence Against Women Act). Why did they demand male victims receive no aid?
You tell me one single thing that feminism stands for today that is about equality.
DB: I don’t think that’s true about equal pay. C’mon. Women currently make 79 cents to a man’s dollar. That’s unfair any way you cut it.
Now, if you want to talk about how men are treated in domestic violence cases and by the courts during custody battles, that’s a different story. But my point is, there are “privileges” on both sides. As a white, heterosexual male I know I enjoy privileges. More than most I’m sure. But there are advantages and disadvantages no matter who you are. And I don’t think those should be discounted just because one side has more or less.
79 cents? It would be incredibly unfair if it was actually TRUE. You seriously saying you don’t know the truth behind that feminist lie? I don’t know. I just sometimes assume that people on these boards know about all this stuff you know? It’s been explained so many times. If you really don’t know it’s a lie then I apologise for jumping on you like that. I don’t mind explaining it once again, or I bet anyone here could, or you can Google it. eg “Gender wage gape fraud” would probably do it. Your choice.
Now as for DV did I say anything about family court? We all know men get screwed there but I didn’t. You said feminism was for equality and I said they passed a bill that explicitly discriminated against men. Now maybe you never heard of VAWA before. It was big in the 1990s. It was probably the single biggest “success” of the feminist movement in the 90s. All the feminist groups backed it. A billion dollars for helping the victims of domestic violence. and they made sure it said no male victims can be helped. If you help male victims? Not a penny for you.
So you tell me. How does a movement that believes in gender equality lobby hard for discrimination? That would be like the NRA accidentally passing a law that bans handguns.
Come on. You said feminism is for equality. I say it’s a hate movement. So we disagree. But it’s not exactly hard to tell the difference is it? Those two things aren’t exactly close are they? It’s pretty easy to come up with stuff that an equality movement would never do, but a hate movement would. Examine the evidence.
Like with that gender wage gap thing? What if I’m right and it’s a big lie? What kind of movement would pass of a huge lie like that about men? What kind of a movement would deliberately try to cause women to resent men like that? An equality movement? Or something else?
Now feminists are always going on about “male privilege” but can never say what it is. You may have privileges (I don’t know, maybe you’re rich) but I mean privileges all men have just because they are male. I keep asking but no feminist can ever tell me what those privileges are. Funny huh? I mean their entire reason to exist is to complain about stuff men have that women don’t, right? But when someone actually asks them for a single example? Nothing.
And I’ve been asking for over twenty years.
Now what do you think? Does that sound like an equality movement or a hate movement?
Re: women’s wages compared to men’s: “79 cents? It would be incredibly unfair if it was actually TRUE.”
Er. It’s definitely true, if not underestimated. Yes, i do have personal experience with this.
Jill I’m sorry to have to do this, but I’m going to have to use my male privilege here to use mark up. What women earn on average is a statistic. You cannot have personal experience of a statistic. Personal experience is an anecdote.
I know you ladies can’t do that italics stuff. Sorry about that. Perk of being a man.
But seriously the 79 cents on the dollar stuff has been represented as for when men and women are doing the same work. That’s false. You know? As in “equal pay for equal work“? If all you mean is that when a woman doesn’t do as much work as a man then she might get paid less, then I agree. Sure, women get paid less if they do less work. Is that what you meant?
This has been debunked. You can calculate it in various ways but the wage gap remains in most groups when comparing apples to apples. You sound like an MRA (although you are actually right about personal experience being anecdata).
How revealing – if you correct error and point out that there are fundamental differences between anecdote and for want of a better word facts – it makes you look MRA!
And some wonder why Tom got attacked when he provided anecdotes of his own expediences and some decided to attack them as factually incorrect.
I personally have never subscribed to ideas of genders and planets – but I can see why some do – and I can also see why warfare metaphors and even use of the term Wrath have their place in discussion.
That’s misleading, because there are so many variables that go into determining how much someone is paid that you can never be sure you’re making an apples-to-apples comparison. We’re talking about human beings, after all.
Feminists celebrate “equal pay day” supposedly as a representation of how much less money women get for the same work as men. It even has a web site and an organisation all of its own.
http://www.pay-equity.org/day.html
Do you happen to know how that date is calculated? It is not calculated in “various ways” but in one way. Do you know how? Are you willing to stand behind that calculation? Or will you concede that it is a lie?
You would do well to read this link posted in the above conversation. http://derailingfordummies.com/#opinion
I have personal experience too. I’m a tax consultant. I have access to complete income detail for tens of thousands of clients. Feminist claims are bunkum.
Analysis of federal government data in Australia for 2008-2009 shows the HOURLY rate of pay for women to be 98.7% of that of men. Women average about 34 hours/week while men average more than 44. Total incomes for women working full time are about 88% of those for full time men.
DavidByron is right — that statistic is completely bogus. (Not to mention completely outdated – women have earned around 80 to 81 percent of men’s earnings for years).
It’s worth learning how that statistic is actually calculated. It’s just the median wage of all female full-time workers, compared to that of male workers. But men work longer hours (as calculated on time-use surveys); earn a much greater share of “professional” degrees (e.g, MD, JD — the ones that really increase your earnings); work in more dangerous professions, as measured by workplace deaths; work in higher-paying professions, like engineering; are much less likely to leave the labor force for a few years; are more likely to work overnight shifts; etc. etc.
Ahh, I wrote a research paper on this a few years ago…as hotly debated several years later, I see.
This is actually correct, mostly. There are a number of attributable factors as mentioned (danger pay, more mat leave taken than pat leave, more women work part time hours than men, etc.)
It also doesn’t take regional and/or industrial factors into consideration to show how well women are doing in some areas (which is a travesty, frankly). Example: in my area of work, women now outnumber men in the executive cadre. However, a wage gap still exists as there are more traditionally ‘pink collar’ positions still held by a majority of women than there are executive positions. SO if you look at the thousands of employees, the dollar figure by gender, women make more. But if you look at percentage earnings over all position categories, the middle management men (there are always more middle management positions than executives, and they earn more than support staff), it appears there is indeed a wage gap. This is biased reporting.
That said, once the adjustments are made to incorporate these differences, there is still an unattributable gap (in terms of cents on the dollar however, it is, or was several years ago, single digit cents). Yes, we should be striving towards eaqual pay for equal work…when these are precisely the circumstances…and yes striving because while close, it’s not there yet.
An “unattributable gap?” Only when you’re using extraordinarily crude means to measure wages. There are like thousands of different factors that go into how much some earns. How good a negotiator they are. The size of their firm and how prestigious or profitable it is. How persistent they are in asking for raises. How good they are at sucking up to the boss for promotions. How often they have left the labor pool. Etc. etc. etc.
Basically, I’d say any kind of macro wage survey is useless for trying to prove discrimination. It’s like trying to take a survey of earth from in orbit. It can’t really be done.
So you agree that the feminists are lying when they go on about 75 cents on the dollar and so on?
http://www.pay-equity.org/index.html
This is their “official” site for the lie and it says 77 cents. You agree that is a lie?
DB: I would NEVER, ever call someone a liar, nor am I saying their stat is incorrect specifically. All I am saying is that, depending on the methods of research and mathematics used, the factors involved, the market measured, people get different answers. I also gave my research as an example. Of note, it is NOT the same market as the site quoted above. However, it is comparable and affected by the same external factors, and there are some sites and stats that have wrongly measured THIS gap NOT accounting for the aforementioned factors, so its not an equal pay for equal work situation.
Not all data is collected and/or measured accurately…that’s all I’m saying.
ANd thanks for the link, but how on God’s Green Earth is this as official site? It’s run by an interest group…and there is nothing denoting their credentials in the realm of statistical analysis (even the partner sites listed, few with credentials have those that are related), nor their method of data collection. I’m not sure I’d trust this as being official.
Yes Derek, it’s not MICRO, and such surveying cannot be (but neither can job turnover, illness rates, etc be accurately measured). But to dismiss it without the MICRO-level proof that is does not exist is also inaccurate. Among the millions of private employers in North America (of varying firm sizes), there’s no way to prove that those mere (singular) pennies are truly being equally distributed.
You know, you’re preaching to the choir, right??
So you know they are putting out false facts that help negatively stereotype men (the 77 cents thing) but you refuse to call them out as liars? To my mind that makes you complicit.
These people have been lying for forty years. Millions of feminists repeat this lie every day. Millions of innocent people unknowingly repeat it daily. This is the biggest lie, the most prejudicial lie told today I think. You actually looked into the issue so you know for a fact what they are saying is false and you refuse to call them out.
Can you explain why I shouldn’t draw the obvious conclusion about you?
“so its not an equal pay for equal work situation”
DaddyFiles, Jill, meerkat and millions of other people think it is an equal pay for equal work situation because millions of feminists tell them that every day. You know that is false. But instead of pointing out the lie you refuse to do so. Why?
You don’t even say that the statement is false. But let’s face it the idea that the entire feminist community has repeated this factoid for four decades and not KNOWN they were repeating false information is ridiculous. Of course they know. People like me have been telling them for four decades. Of course they know.
Btw I have 2 degrees in mathematics (specifically statistics) so I know all about the details you think are important. I’m not responding to that stuff because it is not relevant to the question at hand which is that it is false to claim that these 77 cents figures — created from simply averaging wages across all jobs — are “equal pay for equal work” figures. You know that is false. I know it is false. But millions repeat that lie every day, many unknowingly.
David, let’s not get on the personal…that does nobody any good. Look at what happened to poor Tom the other day.
I said I wouldn’t call someone a liar…and I still don’t think it fair to place a label on someone who is doling out false information, because I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt…it could be a misguided belief.
What we are getting away from is that I have no findings on the figures quoted on the site you gave. My stats, although under similar conditions, don’t speak to the American market specifically. There are a litany of issues with that, and I don’t feel right making an outright statement because of that. Like I said, the conditions/situations are too similar to ignore, and I do believe you are right that this is the situation in the U.S. as well.
When that lie is perpetuated on the ground level (in my community and peer groups), I do indeed speak my piece, relate my findings. It changes alot more minds on a one-to-one basis.
That’s not good enough. This is a terribly destructive and prejudicial lie that has been passed around for decades. You’re in a position to counter it. When you don’t then people will take your silence as agreement.
And even if you really think it is possible for a movement to just “accidentally” issue false information for forty years, then you could still loudly point out that the information is false. This is a moral duty.
I.Cannot.Comment.On.The.U.S.Statistic.
I really don’t get how much clearer I have to be on that.
Well, I agree that a wage survey can’t prove or disprove discrimination. And I’m sure that with what, 60 million or so women in the workplace, there are some that have been discriminated against. But I don’t think that severe discrimination (as opposed to crude office comments) are exactly an everyday occurrence, either. Especially as you get up the food chain, women workers are pretty prized and fought after. Well, nearly all good skilled employees are, really.
If you had to hazard a guess, what percentage of women do you think have been denied a job or promotion just because of their gender??
Where I work? Not many!!! Because the hiring processes are so stringent, it is near impossible to discriminate based on gender.
Yeah. In my industry, good workers (both male and female) are lured away by competitors with promises of promotions and higher salaries. Not based on their gender but based on their abilities. I’ve never heard a friend or coworker complain or voice suspicions about being denied a job or promotion.
Amazing discourse!!! I am incredibly impressed with sjjphd for raising an argument I’d never heard and teaching me something totally new.
Nice work everyone. Really interesting!
Thanks Joanna, I was saddened that the point I was trying to make about using accurate and sensitive comparisons was received so defensively but I’m still glad I brought it up.
Sarah, it was received insensitively because you seem to fail to realize that the door swings both ways.
To you, the comparison is inappropriate because it fails to appreciate the actual experiences of people of color.
Yet arguing that it is an inept comparison reveals a failure on your part to truly understand the experience of being male.
You can argue that the primary difference is oppressed-vs-oppressors, but this implies a word view that others are not required to share, and is likely tautological (who is oppressed is taken on faith, we assume men are not oppressed because of salary figures or political representation, yet homeless population figures and life expectancies paint a different picture: you cannot prove definitively that men hold privilege in the US without resorting to tautologies).
Sarah, just wanted to let you know that your point was totally apt, and I was appalled to see him call it ‘demeaning’ since he ‘has his own views.’ Thanks for bringing it up!
Also thought that discussion and point were RIGHT ON! Thank you! Agree that it was meant with unwarranted defensiveness – you were correct to step in there.
MediaHound says:
December 17, 2011 at 1:44 pm
…..However, as a nonprofit charitable corporation, I understand that it is not mandatory for the information you seek to be supplied. It is discretionary, and may possible be obtained from the relevant officers by use of a formal and polite letter sent by land mail.
———-
I know that they are not obliged to disclose such information in public, but on the other side, I ask for your understandings, if they refuse, and certain feminist websites cheer their publications with Hugo and Amanda, are mentioning donations of USD 500.000,- and writers calling the MS. magazine to be geneous and the GMP under their wing, MRAs will ask if this is really a website for men or if it is totally controlled by feminists in disguise.
As I said already, the GMP is acting somewhat differently from other feminist publications, as it is in general not into deleting and editing of comments from MRAs, who disagree with the authors or blog-owners.
DavidByron says:
December 17, 2011 at 8:05 pm
I find it offensive that you claim feminism is about equality.
———-
I find it offensive too.
I see the feminist movement merely as advocacy groups which are looking for privileges and advantages for certain women, not even for all women – feminism has nothing to do with equality.
Thanks.
It seems like two sides disagree on this board, but only one side gets to say the other is being offensive. That’s got to change. People are so used to feminists saying incredibly insulting things about men it’s as if it has become acceptable just by repetition.
Btw, I’m not a MRA (I’m a lot meaner
I’ve already had stuff deleted. I probably deserved it — but I see far worse stuff posted by feminists here.
Seriously though my motivation is more equality and justice whereas MRA folks are the guys who really have to care about people at the level where it hurts. I come at this from the angle of studying hate groups and prejudice more than individuals suffering. I don’t want anyone blaming MRAs for me being an ass. I’m not an activist. Just someone who can’t stand to see hate masquerading as equality.
“Just someone who can’t stand to see hate masquerading as equality.”
Amen to that!
I too suffer under the burden of not being in one camp or the other. I find it highly amusing how to one group I am an extreme feminist laden with Misandry and the other some form of unreconstructed male laden with Misogyny.
To Paraphrase Capt Jean-Luc Picard – when he was assimilated by The Borg and named Locutus,
“Projection Is Futile.”.
I also object to those who seek to exploit others under the guise of concern, friendship and help. When that happens I have a different view – Resistance is not futile – it’s “Man”datory.
I cannot believe you just implied validation for the (violent+misogynist) MRA guys, @TMatlack. Or typed the phrase “wrath of the feminists.” jennpozner 2 days ago
———————————————-
I do not know, who is ‘jennpozner’, but I can say for sure, she has no idea about the Men’s Rights Movement.
We are neither violent or misogynist, and many of us are married and have children.
We always advice disappointed men who were badly treated by women in their past not to look back but to move on. We advice them always to refrain from hate and violent actions, to move away quickly to avoid disputes which are going to nowhere and to start a new life with entire new people.
What maybe is so difficult to accept for ‘jennpozner’ is the advice, we give to young single men. We strongly support prevention, we advice young men to learn how to avoid mistakes in their future.
We advice young single men to study carefully existing laws AND how these laws are executed in court decisions.
We tell them to be careful and to avoid legal situations which might bring them into serious legal and financial trouble over decades.
If ‘jennpozner’ considers such advice as ‘misogynist’, so let it be.
This thread made me really, really like Roseanne Barr.
Yes. Hopefully she has recovered from getting hit by that log.
Based on the comments here– the whole thread about Ms Magazine– I went and read Amanda Marcotte’s piece, The Answer to MRAs: More Feminism.
BRILLIANT!
Anyone who reads that and doesn’t see the validity of her points really has no interest in becoming a “good man” (or woman) or entering into a discussion about it.
“Anyone who reads that and doesn’t see the validity of her points really has no interest in becoming a “good man” (or woman) or entering into a discussion about it.”
Anyone who doesn’t see the imagined validity that you’re associating with Marcotte’s insane drivel is a sane person who refuses to be manipulated.
Anyone who reads that and doesn’t see the validity of her points really has no interest in becoming a “good man” (or woman) or entering into a discussion about it.
And that’s where you lost it. That piece you’re talking about was damn near a cheap shot hatchet job of MRAs (and if I’m not mistaken that was one of those pieces where Marcotte opened with a personal insult against MRAs, great way to profess your good faith….).
Yeah she had a good point or two in that piece but brilliant is not the word I’d use.
Wow. Shocking. I am so shocked that no feminists wanted to debate the gender wage gap myth.
It’s all the more surprising because they all sounded soooo certain they would win that debate too.
But… none here now.
Yep. Gone. Wonder why?
Probably because they are going to their fall back spot of “it doesn’t matter how big the gap is the problem is the gap”. Not sure how that translates into holding onto the most desparate sounding number possible (remember how for the longest time only 2% of rape allegations were false?).
You mean they actually gave up defending the 2% thing? They admit rape is unique in the high number of false accusations — vastly higher than any other crime?
Really???
Hold on slow down DavidByron. I didn’t say all that. All I’m saying is that from what I can tell mention of that 2% stat seems to have faded into obscurity. But I’m pretty sure there is still the usual “false rape allegations don’t happen anymore than allegations of other crimes” talk.
Most fascinating on the overall. Though I’d say Roseanne and some of the other women in that discussion need to check their heterosexual privilege. That “closet-case whiners” joke was homophobic. Want to talk kyrirachy? Walk the walk and decline to laugh when being gay is treated as an insult. Small moments add up.
Nice Point! Well Made!
Small moments add up. – is very true! Some Build Mountains from the little bits and then claim a higher perspective from what they have built.
I wonder if flat earth thinking shouldn’t have a resurgence?
Oh em gee. This. This right here. There is SO MUCH in this dialogue. SO MUCH.
One thing I can’t help but point out is that twitter (and blog post comments, for that matter) are not always the best place for this kind of dialogue. People can easily read text how they would like; context and tone are difficult to convey. How do we create a dialogue face-to-face, or in another medium where we don’t get bogged down being defensive and taking things the wrong way?
Regardless – there are a lot of underlying narratives (my new fav word, clearly) in this, so many subtle things that are quite literally unseen by those perpetuating them. I think we *need* to engage at THAT level. For one, I’m planning on writing about it with a fellow blogger, yet I’d welcome any additional discussion, mediums for discussion, people to join our conversation, etc. It shouldn’t end here.
Read some of the above debate after the facet. Thank you for tackling this, and allowing such a range of views. It is good to be reminded of the diversity of opinion and experience out there. Will join you next time.
Why do the feminists always claim men have been bestowed with privilege throughout history?
Old English Law actually gave women more privileges than it gave men. For example, if a woman spent all of her husband’s money then HE would go to debtors’ prison. Women who performed crimes while their husbands were present were given total impunity. That means if a woman assaulted another person while her husband was present then the victim’s testimony would be ignored.
Don’t believe it?
Go read the “Declaration of Sentiments” from the Seneca Falls Women’s Convention at Seneca Falls, New York in 1848. This fact was mentioned in it!
“you mean closet case whiners, right?
TheRealRoseanne5 days ago”
It doesn’t suprise me that this woman made such an offensively ridiculous comment.
Isn’t this the same woman who starred in a scene on her “Roseanne” program that promoted extreme sexual violence against men?
If I recall correctly, the scene she starred in involved her kneeing a fitness instructure/shop owner in the testes for no other reason than he made a comment about her weight. It wasn’t out of self-defence, but out of anger.
The question is, would she agree to perform in a scene where she is kneed in the vulva after saying something to a man that he doesn’t like?
I have the feeling she would refuse. She’d probably say it’s embarrassing to promote vulval pain– for those who don’t know, a blow to the vulva can be quite painful, definitely more so than a blow to any other region of the female anatomy — because it’s of a seemingly sexual nature and portrays violence against women’s external genitalia as acceptable.
Of course the feminists on here don’t see anything wrong with promoting violence against men’s generative organs for trivial reasons. They believe it’s okay for a woman to jeopardise a man’s endocrine system and generative organs should he dare to say something that makes them “feel” a bit upset. It doesn’t worry them that testicular abuse has been linked to post traumatic stress disorder, social anxiety and depression. They just tell those men to “man up” and “get over it” because that’s what men are “supposed to do”. But like all feminists, they don’t use the same logic when dealing with women who are victims. Instead, they would throw an almighty tantrum if a man were to kick a woman in the vulva for saying something he found offensive, even if the “kick” was choreographed on television and did not make contact with the recipient’s vulva!
I have no time for these women. I’ll cheer loud and proud if some one gives each one of them a “good kick” in the vulva in real life. I’ll cheer twice as loud and proud if the kick is delivered by a “good man”.
Afterall, they’d tell a man to just “man up” and “get over it” if he was the recipient of testicular abuse, so why should these women be treated any differently?
They’re for equal treatment, no?
One of the problems I noticed while reading this was that there is such a clear distinction between “us” and “them,” regardless from whom it came. There were so many mentions of women vs. men, men vs. MRA, feminists vs. men, feminists vs. MRA…the list goes on. I urge all of you to consider your speech and how you view these discussions. As Jenn Pozner mentioned, it shouldn’t be this hard for allies to have open dialogues, but it will only continue to be this difficult if everyone sees the conversations as coming from separate sides. In addition, don’t contrast “feminists” with “men,” because many men are feminists as well. These seem to be basic pointers, but I believe they’re easily forgotten. (If you believe I’ve made a glaring mistake in this, I’d like to hear it and continue my education of intersectionality.)
As I read through this conversation, all I could think was “Wow, what a sniveling bunch of emotional cripples!”
I read on Hugo’s blog that he has quit GMP.
Due what i saw as the nature of the man that was revealed in the recollections of his past, and also in the most recent Feministe post involving hugo, I am extremely sceptical of his version of events.
If the breech is too great between you all to be repaired.
Will you be replacing Hugo with a feminist who holds similar views – i hope so.
A diversity of article writers is good, and my eyes opened in ever wider amazement reading most of his articles eg. Who could forget his ‘accidental rape’ article that a one once-regular commenter accurately forecast would appear.
When presented with logic, a woman can go emotional.
The man has to flee.
Welcome to the man-club Hugo, you just are not aware of it yet!
(They will rip you apart at the rad-fems sites, just because you carry external genitalia)
No amount of supplication will ever be enough for the would-be gyno masters.
The only good man is a **** man?
Very few of you are using logic in this debate. It’s a perfect reflection of the “us vs. them” mentality prevalent throughout most feminist and men’s rights sites.
The wage gap statistic was calculated by comparing the wages of all working men to all working women, regardless of how many hours they worked, or what fields they worked in. When adjusted for those factors, women at all levels earn about 96 cents on the dollar. Some calculations have found women’s wages to be 98 cents on the dollar. Thus, “75 cents on the dollar” is both invalid and useless.
However, even those calculations don’t tell the whole story. Other studies have demonstrated that in any particular field, a woman needs a bachelor’s degree to earn as much as a man with a high-school diploma. Other studies, conducted in large metros like New York and D.C. have shown women under 30 to earn $1.02 for every dollar a man earns. Other studies have shown that female CEOs are compensated more highly than male CEOs, even though female CEOs are rarer. Still other studies have shown wage gaps as high as 80 cents on the dollar when male and female managers with identical credentials, experience, and years in the workforce are compared. Is any one statistic more valid than the other? That depends on what you want to say with your statistics.
However, anecdotal evidence is not “useless,” as some claim. One anecdote may be. But many anecdotes taken together may provide a clearer picture, as long as the anecdotal evidence is collected in a fair way, and isn’t cherry picked. I’m a woman who works in high tech. On the whole, I outearn most men my age by up to 25K, and I even outearn many men who are a decade or more my senior. Within my own profession, too, I outearn many men because I’m a manager and they are not. However, when compared with male managers in my profession, I sometimes earn less. At times, this has been because I’m a younger manager, and therefore less experienced. At other times, my gender was clearly the problem – like at the company I started at, where a man with equivalent skills, but less experience and only a high school diploma, made $4/hour more than I did. And at the company I resigned after a long tenure, where only female employees, just as senior and qualified as the male employees, had to “pay their dues” as contractors responsible for their own taxes and healthcare, while the men were hired outright, and where the men all got new, modern computers and software, while the women were assigned secondhand computers with outdated or “student” copies of older software. (Yes, I worked longer days than 65% of the men, and equally long days as the other 35%.)
I also worked at a position where every male tech director was ultimately fired by the female executive he reported to. The revolving door that was this position did not end until the director slot was filled by a woman. At that time, the female executive “cleaned house,” replacing male employees with female employees. Isolated, my experiences are nothing more than tales of individual sexist bosses (male or female), but if we collected anecdotes and found a pattern developing among them, we can begin to speculate about correlation and causation.
The reality of the gender wage gap is simple: there is no concrete answer. You can make statistics and anecdotes say anything you want. It’s more useful to look at patterns of bias in either direction within specific professions, and especially, at specific companies. We have the power to take action against biased companies today, by writing negative reviews about our experiences with them on Glassdoor.com, and spreading the word as we network. The free market, not the government, is the best arbiter of fairness in many cases – as the biased companies will develop a negative reputation, and their egalitarian competitors will enjoy recruiting talent away from them.
And to the guy who said women can’t use italics, let me be the first to say that basic HTML skills are not very impressive anymore. If you can create a slick interface that degrades gracefully on older browsers, renders well on mobile phones, and uses validated, semantic HTML/CSS/JavaScript, then I’ll be impressed. That’s the kind of guy (and gal) I’m looking to hire. But the italics tag? Nah. The italics tag is depreciated anyway. The new markup is “em” in brackets.
Someone being rational suggesting that women are neither perfect nor hopelessly flawed.
“The reality of the gender wage gap is simple: there is no concrete answer. You can make statistics and anecdotes say anything you want. It’s more useful to look at patterns of bias in either direction within specific professions, and especially, at specific companies.”
Thank you for being constructive.
Sure enough I was right.
The rad-fems did turn on Hugo, within 48 hours of my writing that post.
P.S>
It saddens me so very greatly when the feminists are saddened,but my sadness is so much deeper than their sadness.
Ugly women are hilariously sexist.
….with all of this talking wouldn’t the wise thing to do be to do whats healthy for yourself and those around you? stickinging to a holistic course and making an enviornment around you that promotes the same… would that not be the sollution. then all of us would need only to worry about defining what is healthy.
“Imagining the POV of someone you’re in conflict with is bare minimum of being a good person, yes.” -Amanda Marcotte
“I’ve been sort of casually listening to CNN blaring throughout the waiting area and good fucking god is that channel pure evil. For awhile, I had to listen to how the poor dear lacrosse players at Duke are being persecuted just because they held someone down and fucked her against her will—not rape, of course, because the charges have been thrown out. Can’t a few white boys sexually assault a black woman anymore without people getting all wound up about it? So unfair.” -Amanda Marcotte