HeatherN asserts that those who like vanilla sex have a lot to learn from those in the kink community.
So I was reading through a bunch of blog articles a few days ago, and ended up at this article on Pervocracy about how the rules of consent in kink culture could translate to “vanilla” sex. It’s about a month old, which in internet years is like a decade, but I still want to discuss it because I think it’s awesome.
The basic premise of the article is that because kink can involve extreme and potentially painful behaviour, consent is especially important. It is absolutely essential that everyone involved knows exactly what the limits are, and that they all have complete veto power at any point during a “scene,” because without consent, what is happening would be on par with torture. If you think about this, this is actually sort of obvious. I mean of course, the only thing that makes tying someone down and flogging them moral, let alone legal, is because they said “yes,” when you asked them if they wanted you do it.
I am aware that in reality, even people in the kink community aren’t always perfect when it comes to consent. As Pervocracy says, “While kinksters may not perfect consent and communication…at least we know we’re supposed to.” That, right there, is the big difference between kink culture and mainstream culture when it comes to sex. For some reason, when we discuss consent during vanilla sex, we come up with all sorts of different reasons why getting enthusiastic consent is a problem. And yet, the danger is just as great in vanilla sex versus kinky sex. After all, without consent, vanilla sex is rape.
And yes, I totally get that there are plenty of reasons why people have such a difficult time communicating openly about sex in western society today. But, instead of using those reasons as excuses, let’s find ways to work around them, or better yet, tear them down. After all, kinksters come from the same set of social norms as the rest of us, and yet they have developed a culture which emphasizes the importance of enthusiastic consent. We would do well to incorporate kink philosophies about consent into mainstream culture.
Now, I’m not saying that you have to stop everything every couple of moments during sex and unemotionally ask, “Do you still want to keep going?” I totally get that would not really be all that sexy. But there are certainly sexy ways to keep communication open during sex. I mean, who doesn’t like a little dirty talk now and then? I also totally get that not everyone may be aware of what enthusiastic consent actually means. Well, there’s a great article by Julie Gillis about it, here.
Pervocracy’s article lists a few rules that the kink community has whenever entering a “scene” (and even vanilla sex is a “scene”). Basically it boils down to a few things: be aware of your partner(s) responses to what you’re doing; respect safe words (such as “No,” unless another word is designated), and discuss what you are going to do in advance. In other words, don’t assume that you know what your partner(s) wants to do sexually. Talk about it first, and remember that at any time during sex you and your partner(s) are equally allowed to bring the whole scene to a halt for whatever reason.
Kinky or vanilla, everyone has to be able to say “no” and have that be respected. “No” trumps “yes,” every time.
Image of Tail Whip courtesy of Shutterstock
About HeatherN
Speaking from personal experience, I do not think the biggest breakdown is with respect to “Do you want to do this?” but rather “How will this act define our relationship?”
I personally know someone who was investigated for sexual assault because a woman who consented, enthusiastically, did not communicate the idea that sex meant they were automatically entered into an exclusive relationship with long-term aims. The end result was a report filed with campus police two days later.
To me, this will always be the problem with consent: one party can usually withdraw the consent AFTER the act has taken place and cause endless problems for the other party. Enthusiastic consent is meaningless if it can be withdrawn hours and days after the act has already taken place.
The fact remains that we live in a society where men bear the brunt of this particular problem, just ask Brian Banks.
Asking your partner “Do you still want to keep going?” is immaterial if they answer “yes” at the time and then “no” a day later.
I remain unclear as to how the kink community has solved this problem.
It may seem really unexciting but my rule is no sex without it being an exclusive relationship. This is discussed before the next date. I don’t want one night stands and am not interested in casual sex. so my current partner knew up front what he was getting into. This has worked well for me. Of course it limits me to one guy and one guy only but that allows me to focus on other things. Not suggesting this is for everyone but my it does make life way less complicated.
Consent cannot be withdrawn a day later, or even an hour later. Consent may only be withdrawn before or during an act. Lying about consent and false accusations are a different matter entirely. The woman you describe had no grounds to file any kind of report. She also did not clearly communicate the terms of the encounter. before entering into the act, which is something the kink community certainly advocates for (although their terms are usually more along the lines of “Flogging is fine, but no nipple torture.”)
I’m a 40 year old woman and have been involved in the kink and sex-positive community for a long time. Entering into it was one of the best lessons for me for learning to think about, know, and be able to say what I wanted, and what I didn’t want… including regarding relationship. I absolutely had to know myself to be successful in the “scene.” This article is just breaking the ice and describing a possible change in conversation about a sex act to introduce the idea of talking frankly, openly, honestly, without judgement *before* both parties are hot and bothered and halfway undressed and someone is coerced by their partner or their own immediate sexual urgency is speaking for them rather than their brain and heart. They are not illustrating the many conversations kinksters are *also* having regarding relationship implications and statuses.
I think what is missing from this article is the broad statement that for kinksters “Absolutely everything is negotiable.” Besides the sex acts, or the kink acts, we are also negotiating relationship boundaries and what the implications and meanings of various kinds of intimacy are for each person involved. Yes’s are honored with enthusiasm, & no’s are absolutely respected, and people attempting to do it ethically are usually trying to make sure that all aspects are cleared before the ropes come out… or even meeting first for coffee. This is a sort of, “Hey, check out the kinksters who are talking honestly and openly before the heat of the moment and they’re still managing to have fun.” One reason why this has evolved, is that the safest place for people to meet and play are semi-public/private clubs where there is a bit of a community involved. You may not be doing your “scene” in the view of others, but you will quickly be known and wholly shunned if you are someone who is doing edge-play and not taking any “no’s” for an answer. Period.
I have seen consent withdrawn afterwards. It’s usually a lie and it’s a problem. And I can imagine for men that is somewhat terrifying. If you are having open and honest conversations about “Hey, what are you looking for? What does sex mean to you? How long do you like to date before sex? Do you like to date multiple people before you get serious? Are you monogamous? No? Okay, do you have permission from your spouse/partner? Great! I want to meet them too so I can hear it from their mouth that you have permission to play and our acts aren’t going to hurt someone else…No? Well I’m sorry I don’t play with other people spouses without permission., etc” These types of discussions for *any* relationship dynamic or desired sex act will absolutely help you weed out getting involved with someone who is not in touch with what they want, or without the ability to express their desires and boundaries. You will be much less likely to get together with someone who is going to change their mind later because unspoken relationship expectations were not met.
I have oscillated between kink and “vanilla” partners, usually men. My problem with the small kink community in the city I am in is that it is hard to find a good kinky partner who is not also polyamorous. I tried it, I am not especially polyamorous if I am in love with someone, at least not yet. I broke up with my vanilla fiancé because when the “honeymoon” of our newness wore off, he was unable to talk honestly about sex and what he wanted, or hear what I wanted to talk about, and I desperately wanted and needed to. He felt that if you had to talk about it, it somehow diminished the authenticity of our love. Like it’s supposed to just magically happen and be perfect for both of us, otherwise we’re really not in love. That is a wholly juvenile and unrealistic, romantic notion. Love does not magically create good or consensual sex. You have to talk, a lot, about good sex, boundaries, and desires to have good relationships. After the awkwardness wears off, (it feels very, very strange at first… very, clinical) it can actually become quite a turn on, creating anticipation. If you’ve discussed it ahead of time, chances are you won’t get to that movie that is suggested you go watch at his house, you’ll probably just go straight to bed.
On the flip side of this, I have been open with vanilla men about sex and they just did not know what to think of me. I was/am in a relationship with a very good vanilla man. I chose to engage with him because he is totally in touch with himself emotionally and very communicative about how he feels and what sex means in a relationship to him, even though he would be classified as “vanilla.” We are currently friends right now and not engaging in sex because I’m in love with him, but his heart is not over his last lover and he currently can only offer me friendship. I still love him madly and relish all the time I get to spend with him and still see him on a regular basis. I love him freely, unselfishly, even if he can’t give me his whole heart now. So I love on him as much as I can as a friend. We were able to negotiate getting intimate (he made me wait a long time, but he was worth it!) and we have been able to negotiate being less intimate and stay friends for now. He is 17 years older than me. Married & divorced 2x. He is certainly “vanilla.” I will never forget the total “deer in the headlights” look in his eyes about 2 weeks into our being engaged sexually. I was feeling very good and sexy and I said to him one evening, “I feel so good right now. I want to do something for you to make you feel good… just for you. I’m going to tell you several suggestions of what I’d love to do for you, and you I want you to choose any one you like, or tell me one of your own. Would you like: a massage (we were both massage students at the time,) some oral sex, make love, a shower where I wash you everywhere from head to toe, I cook you something like a steak and a blowjob, I do a sexy striptease for you, a foot rub, get naked and cuddle and watch a movie…” His was totally wide-eyed & in total shock. I will never forget the look on his face. Classic, wonderful shock. He didn’t believe me. He didn’t believe it was real. “I have never had a woman ask me anything like that before, ever. I’m so shocked I…I just don’t know what to say…are you really serious?” He literally was in total shock at how specific I was as well as how genuinely enthusiastic I was to do something only for him. I got on my knees and touched his knee gently, looked into his eyes and said, “YES. I am totally serious.” He managed to pick something, and started even asking for specific things. I really want to know what my man wants.
Please, talk dirty to me.
I am pretty vanilla myself, but I’m open about what I want (I love talking dirty), and, yes, my current boyfriend has nearly died of shock numerous times, poor guy. I’ll never forget the first time I said, “I’m horny right now, want to have sex?” He looked at me like I had grown a third eye. He later told he’d never been in a relationship with a woman who initiated sex, so he didn’t know how to respond. And he’s in his 40′s. That’s so sad. Personally I was pretty inhibited when I was young, but at some point I realized, “this is silly, I just want to have fun.”
“I think what is missing from this article is the broad statement that for kinksters “Absolutely everything is negotiable.” Besides the sex acts, or the kink acts, we are also negotiating relationship boundaries and what the implications and meanings of various kinds of intimacy are for each person involved.”
True enough…and I suppose really someone could write an article just about communication and negotiation in relationships and how the kink community has further developed this, full stop.
Note, this is not meant to be provocative, and I hope it’s not a “trigger” for anyone, it’s a genuine question.
What are inexperienced people to do? Or if your partner is inexperienced? So that they can’t talk about what they really like because they haven’t actually done it so they don’t know what’s it like?
Isn’t it ok to just try it out and go along, see what it’s like, as long as you’re open and attentive to each others reactions (of course!)?
Or should you just refrain from doing it (anything) at all?
@FlyingKal, I’d like to honor your question. Are you willing to be a little more specific as to the inexperience you’re speaking of or coming from? Is it just how to start the conversation? Is it lack of knowledge of specifc sex acts? Are you asking from the place of where you are with an established partner or a new relationship?
Thank you.
Thanks.
I was talking about “inexperienced” as in a person who has had sex not so many times and/or with a very limited number of people, and who might also be a very low-libido person that not have given much thought or practice about what s/he really like about sex other than “the old in-and-out” makes me itch in quite a peculiar way…
I’m sorry, that’s not very clarifying. I had written a rather long and personal answer that was just eaten by the self-reload of this page! (Always forget that one!!) So I’m a wee bit frustrated now…
Well here’s the thing…if you (or your partner) don’t like talking about sex, because it ruins the mood, then don’t talk about it when you’re about to have it. Right like, if talking about it makes you a bit nervous…then my suggestion is to find a good neutral space where you can have the discussion in private, but not with any pressure about actually having sex, and then discuss it.
If you just don’t know what you like (or your partner), then my suggestion is masturbation. Yes, for real. It’s a great way to figure out what you enjoy sexually.
But also, I think that perhaps the way to think about being inexperienced and having sex is that you can sort of explore what you like with your partner(s). Sometimes enthusiastic consent can be as simple as a few words, “faster,” “slower,” “do you like this?” “does this feel good?” – those are all phrases that are discussing consent without necessarily having to stop and be specific.
@FlyingKal, I thought about this for a good while and a wonderful book came to mind: “The Art of Sexual Ecstasy: The Path of Sacred Sexuality for Western Lovers” Author: Margo Anand.
This book is approaching sexualty, communication, and bonding from the ancient sacred tantric practices but making it practical for the modern, western person. It first gives people exercises, meditations, etc. to first connect to themselves that they do on their own. These exercies include masturbation (w/o porn.) Then it approaches non-sexual activities of: creating a sacred space, opening paths of honest communication & connecting intimately w/o the sexual act, talking to reluctant partners, suggestions for making up your own rituals for expressing your love, emotions, & desires (eg. taking turns finding a gift like a seashell on a beach and presenting it to your love and telling them what it represents to you), and then proceeds to the tantric practices that are focused on deeping connection between two people… or you can practice a lot of this by yourself. It also can open the door to some high, sacred sex that many men and women didn’t know was even possible. For example, moving away from orgasm-focused sex can actually lead to higher ecstasy…. or did you know that men can experience multiple non-ejaculatory orgasms? It takes practice and it takes dedication between partners. It is very beautiful and perhaps burdened with much less shame & heated judgement … as already you can see here with some peoples’ reactions to the mention of kink as being wrong, perverse, etc.
As far as amount of sexual arousal or desire. There is no “normal.” Really, “normal” is a judgement and a wholly mathmatical abstraction. Please, someone show me a 100% “normal” tree, dog, human. Peoples’ desires and ways of attraction and arousal, like gender orientation or gender identity or ideas toward sex cover an entire spectrum. They are not so black and white, and they are not identical to other people. There are some people who just do not get sexually aroused until they feel a strong emotional connection for a specific person… and that is totally “normal.” They are frequently confused as asexuals or having low or no libido. I think the term is called “demisexual.” either way, ….
I loved Margo Anand’s book. It is very gentle and beautiful.
Also, if you are trying to initiate a completely different mode of communication, you can try to make the change to open & honest exchange in areas outside of sexuality which is so close to many layers and years of judgement, fear, guilt & shame for many people. It’s the hardest, hottest, heaviest place to start. So, say you start with, discussing where to go eat for dinner. Many people will say, “Whatever you want…” when actually they really do know *exactly* where they want to eat, but are afraid to say it for some reason. Try starting a new habit of taking turns of saying what’s really your desire in a safer, and more simpler space. Then you start to open the door to the harder, more intimate things. You have to start somewhere.
Hope this helps.
I don’t know if this answers your question but I had a boyfriend who was quite inexperienced. He was very shy and had only had a couple other girlfriends. He also came from a sexually repressive family. He had a lot of anxiety about sex and didn’t want to open up about what he liked or fantasized about.
So I bought a sex book. I looked at several, finally picked one written by former porn star Nina Hartley. I liked that one because she writes in a very gentle, non-threatening, sex positive way. I told my boyfriend that I bought it for myself, to get some ideas. Of course that made him curious and he eventually read it too. Then I was able to talk to him about the book and the ideas in it. That led to a discussion about why he didn’t like to tell me what he wanted in bed. It turned out that he had this (erroneous) idea that women don’t really like sex, that we only like gentle cuddling, romance, and scented candles, etc., and that I would be grossed out or offended by his lustful primal desires. Once I convinced him he was TOTALLY wrong about that, we made rapid progress!
Sarah, thank you, your answer means a lot to me.
For me personally it’s about having a partner that not so much coming from a repressive family/environment, as not having much of a libido to begin with. (How much that in turn comes from a societal oppression is a matter for another discussion, since we can’t change the past.)
She says she likes sex, and what I can do to her. But she doesn’t think about it, and she doesn’t like talking about it. Talk is like the antithesis to doing it, to her.
So, short version. I’m just a human being with a libido. And it seems to me as being in a spot where I have to choose between Having sex and only Talking about it, I prefer the former, for a number of reasons. Sorry about that.
That’s a tough situation but as long as she says she likes sex and seems to enjoy it, I wouldn’t overthink the low libido part right now. In your initial comment you mentioned that she is inexperienced and not sure what she likes. Is it possible that she feels anxious or pressured when you ask her about her likes/dislikes and fantasies? If she is not comfortable talking about sex, she might respond by saying “I don’t know, I don’t think about sex, I don’t have fantasies.” this could make it seem like she has a low libido. She may want to avoid thinking about sex, or on the other hand, she may think about sex a lot, but she doesn’t want to admit it. Or she may genuinely have a low libido, but you just don’t have enough information at this point about what’s going on in her head. So, I think you have to take a guiding role in this. Explain the kinds of things you would like to try, and find out if she’s game. Pay attention to what she does seem to like, based on her physical reactions. Does she get more excited if you talk dirty? Does she seem to like it if you touch her in a particular way? Another thing you can try is just having a conversation in a non-judgmental, non-threatening way. Say to her, “Is it hard for you to talk about sex? Do you think I’ll judge you? Do you think that liking sex means you aren’t a ‘nice girl’?” and that sort of thing. It sounds like you need a way to break the ice and get a discussion going.
But if you finally conclude her libido IS to blame, then there are a lot of possibilities. Is she taking antidepressants? (huge libido killer). Is she on birth control pills? Is she insecure about her body? Does she have medical problems that affect her well being or might make sex uncomfortable? Does she have a history of abuse? Is she willing to see a sex therapist or get counseling for the issue?
Finally, I think the most important question for her is whether she is happy with her sex life or not. Maybe she is totally happy letting you take the lead. Maybe she has zero interest in doing anything differently. In that case, you two either have to find a compromise, or conclude that you are probably not sexually compatible.
And maybe she is a perfectly normal person who prefers to do other things with her life rather than getting fucked. The media has somehow led us to believe that sex is the only thing we should ever be doing and if we aren’t hopping into bed with 50 people and getting tied up by some freak or watching porn 24/7 that there is something wrong with us. Maybe she is the normal one and everyone constantly worried about the next orgasm are ones who are fucked up. Just maybe.
I’m not at all kink because it’s in my mind the opposite of tantric. High sex, for me, is timeless, and gets deeper and deeper and deeper. Sure, positions are wonderful (and tantric lapsitting can be uncomfortable) and oral stuff should also be timeless. But what I think of as kink would seem to detract from tantra. My belief is that it’s based on trying to up the energy with fetishes– but the fetishes inject a layer of artificiality into sex. So I’m not sure that being my kind of vanilla has any disadvantages. In high tantric sex, one is in a meditational state, mind more or less blank, and the sensations seem rich and infinite. One danger we have now is that kink may be wrongly represented as the “great sex,” when it’s actually a distraction. Historically (under patriarchy anyway) sex is always represented as kink, and features some tiresome and predicatblepower agendas: Sex is “dirty.” Sex is about domination. And so on. Gues who and what this discourse serves the interests of.
Of course, kink does build up energy, but I doubt if it builds up as much as tantra at it’s best. And, like a drug, it may work when tantra doesn’t. When I’m tired , I use a bit of internal kink. A neice, a student, certain family members (no pun intended.) Most of mny internal fetishes involve breaking social “rules.” I have found though that I have absolutely no interest in involving any one else in this type of imagery.
As a non-practicing poly, married to a non-poly, I’ve found the poly community irritating with its desire to constrain sex with rules. If I were to practice adultrous sex (I have, but I’m not now,) the last thing I’d do is bring my wife to give permission for this. Also, I’m one of those who does fall in love. The sex doesn’t generally stay interesting otherwise.
Well Pervocracy even points out in her article that the rest of kink, the actual kinky sex, isn’t going to be applicable. If you don’t enjoy kink; you don’t enjoy kink. It’s the aspect of kink culture that places such a huge importance on consent that I think can and should crossover.
As for constraining sex with rules…well I’d say that’s a good thing, to a certain extent. Sex (no matter what variety) involves physically manipulating another person’s body, and that means there has to be rules about what you can and can’t do. I understand wanting to maybe keep some mystery during the actual act…which is why I think you can totally have conversations about sex outside of the bedroom to maybe lay the groundwork for what is and isn’t okay, and then while actually having sex you can keep things surprising and spontaneous. And, of course, once you’re with someone for an extended period, discussions about what is and isn’t okay become much, much shorter.
Nope. It’s the lipsmacking and legalistic social and relationship rules that I was objecting to. If you’ve ever been around pollies discussing these, you want to run out of the room. I’d rather have don’t ask, don’t tell sex a million times, than ever hear this stuff again. It’s like some people’s endless prep for Dungeons and Dragons. No.
Heather, did you notice that my post was a CRITIQUE of kink. So, I’m not sure that anyone dealt with it, even by P before the fact. I’d argue that kink is not a choice that can’t be unpacked, perhaps (horrors) even as pathology.
Also “Perv” is sort of an “n-word” applied to men these days (maybe supplanting “creep.”) I even heard “perving” as a verb used by a woman to attack a man with whom she disagreed. I’m the furthest thing from a language cop, so I don’t care, but I’m making the observation.