Guy Code, Hugo Schwyzer writes, attempts to give men a free pass from being emotionally understanding in their relationships.
It was with a familiar sense of frustration that I read Lisa Hickey’s piece on straight men’s views of their wives: “Are Husbands Really Assholes?” Hickey, who heard from a number of men and women in lasting marriages, paints a grim picture. The husbands report being married to wives who are relentlessly critical and nit-picky. Despite what they universally claim are their best efforts, these men (at least the ones who shared with Hickey) lament that their wives remain perennially dissatisfied. As one husband put it:
Men want to be good husbands but they honestly don’t know how. And the women they truly adore pound them as a result. Rather than talking it through, they ultimately get to the point where they give up on dialogue and just take the punishment as part of what they have to endure.
I don’t think that the anonymous married man who shared that was wrong about the two statements in his first sentence. Most men, as far as I can tell, do want to be good husbands. And most of them really don’t know what that entails. But that inability to figure out how to be the good husbands we dream of being is not our wives’ problem to solve. The source of our frustrated inability to connect with our spouses and long-term girlfriends isn’t their elevated expectations or some innate male biological trait that serves as an impediment to self-awareness. The problem is that most men are raised with what is often called the “Guy Code.”
The Guy Code, which boys learn from their male peers and older men, prizes action rather than words. It teaches boys, as the sociologists Deborah David and Robert Brannon pointed out decades ago, to be highly competitive “sturdy oaks” with little vocabulary for anything other than ambition or anger. The Guy Code teaches men how to pursue women, how to court, and how to charm; it teaches us nothing about how to be in an actual relationship with a woman once we’ve succeeded in catching her. (If you’re getting an image of a dog who looks bewildered and helpless when he’s finally managed to catch the cat he’s been chasing, you’re not far off the mark.)
Once in a relationship (much less a marriage) with a real-honest-to-goodness human being who didn’t grow up with the Guy Code (and thus wasn’t shamed out of her ability to articulate her feelings, as most of us were as boys), we’re often in awe of what seem like her “naturally” superior emotional abilities. Women seem to have this extraordinary capacity to describe their feelings with precision; they seem to be so much better at remembering the nuances of conversations we’ve long since forgotten.
Many young—and not-so-young—men feel overwhelmed by what seem to be the superior verbal and emotional skills of female romantic partners. When a man has grown up learning not to display feelings, or to talk about them, he may end up feeling as if he’s a first-year French student suddenly plunged into a conversation with fluent native speakers. He hasn’t got—or he feels he hasn’t got—the vocabulary with which to keep up. This isn’t because of testosterone, of course, or some inherent aspect of the human brain; it’s the hangover from growing up with the “guy code.” And the guy code, followed rigidly, leads to a kind of learned emotional helplessness.
♦◊♦
Make no mistake: I don’t think women are blameless. Women are acculturated to take charge of the emotional health of the marriage; women are taught to confuse being controlling with being nurturing. Women, as well as men, buy into the male myth, the one that says we are physiologically incapable of being as emotionally complex, intuitive, or articulate as our wives and girlfriends. Some women take a certain satisfaction in the mistaken belief that they “know their husbands better than they know themselves.” Women play at least a small part in the maintenance of the male myth.
But the majority of the men in Lisa Hickey’s piece don’t sound like men who are actively trying to resolve a problem with a partner whom they regard as an equal. They sound petulant and resentful; they sound defeated. Two guaranteed-to-fail tactics are all they have in their arsenals: “submarining” and pre-emptive self-deprecation.
Submarining is what it sounds like: diving deep to avoid a tempest that must eventually blow over. By viewing your wife’s rage as a temporary storm to be avoided, you will, like a sub, dive inward, remaining as impassive as possible, waiting patiently (or, more accurately, anxiously but with an outer veneer of tranquility) for the tempest to cease. This is passive-aggressive conflict avoidance; I did a lot of “submarining” in my first two marriages.
Other men will pull out the infamous pre-emptive apology strategy (I’m sorry, I’m sorry, whatever I did, I’m sorry. Please stop being mad.) Still others, of course, will retreat to self-deprecation, figuring that if they say truly awful things about themselves, they’ll force their lovers to cease the search for legitimate discussion and turn to the more traditionally feminine role of soothing male anxiety. (I’m such a piece of shit, I don’t know why you stay with me. Batterers use that line a lot in the remorse stage, following an episode of abuse.) It often works, particularly on a younger woman who fancies herself capable of showing a man a side of himself he has never seen. And so a lot of women, torn between exasperation and compassion, give in at this point and say, “Oh Theodore, you’re not a bad person. I really do love and admire you.” She temporarily breaks off the attempt to push through to him and to create change; the status quo is preserved.
♦◊♦
It’s tempting—oh, so tempting—to attribute our own comparative inarticulateness to our testosterone, or to our Y chromosome, to God’s plan for marriage, or anything that is sufficiently immutable so as to excuse us from having to engage with these heavily-armed wordsmiths as equals. Thanks to the Guy Code, we confuse what we weren’t given with what we can never learn. It’s an alluring mistake; if we buy into it, we can lapse into the grim satisfactions of martyrdom (I’m such a heroic knight, why can’t she appreciate me?) or we stray into emotional or physical affairs with women who seem so much more understanding (My secretary really gets me. She makes me feel like a man. Not like my shrew of a wife who cut my balls off and keeps them in her underwear drawer). And all the while, we submarine, self-deprecate, and endure.
When men are raised with little sense of how to “fight fair,” particularly with romantic partners, they often lack the discernment to determine a legitimate criticism that ought to be taken to heart from an unfair attack. Women aren’t the only ones who fall for the myth that wives, girlfriends, and sisters know the guys they love better than they know themselves; for different reasons, men and women alike are attached to that sexist conceit. This assumption that men are a mystery to themselves can function, for some men, to legitimize anything a woman says in anger. And sometimes in anger, we—men and women alike—say unfair things to our romantic partners. We speak from a place of pain, frustration, and rage, and we say what we know will wound. Women do this, men do this. The difference is that many men, thanks to their “learned obtuseness,” are particularly unlikely to be able to differentiate between the legitimate criticism uttered in a healthy fight and the unjust accusation blurted out in a moment of wrath.
It’s not news to report that wives are gonna say some things that are hurtful and unfair. But they’re also gonna say some things that are hurtful but fair—and the real problem is that most men still need to do the hard work of learning how to discern between the two. I won’t pretend that’s easy. And I also won’t buy the lie that it’s impossible.
♦◊♦
Are Husbands Really Assholes? Or Do Their Wives Just Think They Are? Lisa Hickey
Being the Man Does Not Automatically Make Everything Your Fault, Jackie Summers
♦◊♦
—Photo CarbonNYC/Flickr
Isn’t it funny that when people complain about marriage, whether they’re male or female, the complaints sound remarkably similar? He/She always has to be right. He/She just doesn’t get how much I do for her/him! I just want to be appreciated! It’s almost like it’s not a gender issue at all, but a human one… hmmmm… naw, couldn’t be. Anyway, I found this article refreshing. In my marriage, I did a lot submarining, and always assumed that if my wife criticized me, that she must be right. I listened, but I did it the wrong way, by not speaking for… Read more »
This is the best comment I’ve seen on this article. After all, isn’t a real relationship where both people are respected and valued what we’re after?
Alright, going along with Hugo’s views here: But if women are brought up with the idea (imposed by society, of course…) that she has natural superior emotional and communicational abilities. How are we ever going to get to the point were we actually listen to EACH OTHER?? If both parties all the time have this underlying notion that whatever they disagrre about, she has the power of the veto…
Remember, this guy tried to light himself and his girlfriend on fire during a drunken drug binge. He’s also slept with several of his students. Take everything he says with a grain of salt.
Hugo’s been around long enough to know what the guy code is, but he never fails to misrepresent it.
The guy code is; as long as something needs to be done, control your grief, fear, annoyance, pain, fatigue, etc. Get whatever it is done. When it’s done, then knock yourself out with whatever reaction you like. Problem is, if the post-event self-knockingout isn’t done precisely as women do it, you’re wrong.
What this has to do with marital relationships is unclear.
You all need to read Allen Johnson book titles The Gender Knot; Unraveling our patriarchal legacy. In it he explains our male centered, male dominated and male oriented society. Instead of getting offended or defensive, men should realize how the idea of men emotional helplessness serves male privilege by not holding them accountable and therefore allowing them to be out of touch with human capabilities such as intimacy and communication. In the end it benefits men because the women who are always in service to men (I.E. second class and reinforcing male centeredness) end up resorting to comforting them and… Read more »
TM, this site is about men, not feminism. This site is not built around FEMINISM and other bogus ideologies. So please take your vomit to another place.
BAM! Someone, and I don’t need to know the commenter’s gender, gets it. Why we even believe that feminism, or gender-bashing from either side, is useful at this stage I don’t know. If we just honestly looked at our cultural history, and how little things have really changed under the surface, we would know that there is still a lack of knowledge and understanding on both sides that keeps us from breaking new ground. The old ground has served well to sustain a sense of power for some. I don’t understand the insistence on referring to women’s rights and men’s… Read more »
Man, I wish i had a man that tried. Mine just beats the shit out of me instead. There is only one code. His. And all on his terms… else its discipline for the wifey. And silence is treated just the same.
Some woman, dont have things quite so great. Unfortunetly, society consists of a large amount of arseholes.
Be thankful, you at least have pyshical strength, that cant be matched in the end.
Yeah, Hugo does like to write the “It’s always the man’s fault” articles, which can start to get sexist after a while.
But to answer the question of article: the problem is that society teaches men “Don’t argue with your wives, they’ll always win.” Men should be able to speak up for themselves. Both partner’s opinions need to expressed, not just the wife’s. His view deserves to be heard as well.
Come read “The Good Men Project.” Where, according to us, men are never good and women are always right regardless of the circumstances. Seriously, is this a website for men or rabid, man-hating feminists? It’s rare to see so much misandry in men’s magazines, after all.
It’s really just Hugo. The rest of the articles are more balanced
Excerpt of the first few paragraphs: There is a conversation that started with some guys in The Good Men Project—in person, by phone, via email—where men were asked to talk deeply and honestly about their marriage. What came out was startling: there is despair in the voices of married men. The refrain heard over and over is some variation of “I want to have a good marriage. I love my wife. But sometimes, all I feel is resentment—from my wife, toward my wife, toward the marriage. I believe my wife thinks I am an asshole, and she treats me as… Read more »
Perhaps one of the problems here is that we don’t know the back story and context to this story However, the picture and caption at the top speak very clearly. What also speaks volumes is that a man said it strikes him as emotional abuse. Instead of asking why that popped into his mind, what his experiences have been, why a man might choose to shut down many of the women here essentially told him to shut up. I’m still waiting for the ” what about the menz?”. We aren’t even listening so there’s no discussion about why they shut… Read more »
@ Eric M September 18, 2011 at 4:11 pm
I have never seen ANY article written by Hugo, which was clearly on the side of a good man, who was badly cheated by malicious women and by the legal system in Western countries. Never.
If anybody knows about such an article, let me know.
It is true, not all articles are extreme like this one on the GoodMenProject.
However this is a website, which is pro-feminist orientated, created by feminists. There is not much space left over here to talk about Men’s Rights.
@ Rhyth7 The article’s picture is a guy with a doofus look on his face with a sign on his head saying “does not work.” That is the article that sums up his opinion of men and tells you what to expect in the article. The article delivers that message lout and clear. You don’t even have to read the article to see that this it pure, unadulterated man-bashing. Just look at the picture. If you do read the article and can’t see that this article states, in essence, “women are good, men are bad”, there is nothing I can… Read more »
@ Yohan,
You are correct. Hugo’s articles are pure unadulterated male-bashing/misandry. Just look at the picture associated with this article, as just one example.
On the other hand, Jackie Summers wrote a rebuttal to this one. I would love to hear Hugo’s response to it. Jackie’s comments are so rational, reasonable, balanced, factual, and don’
t reflect hatred of women or men that I doubt Hugo would even try to comment on it. It would expose him even further.
Jackie Summers wrote a straw man rebuttal. Hugo never said that being a man automatically made things your fault, also Hugo wasn’t talking about abusive relationships. Jackie wrote a good article about his experience, but it had nothing to do with what Hugo wrote about.
What would Hugo or the feminists over at Ms. Magazine say about an article that stated that women’s brains don’t work? They would call it misogyny, because that’s what it would be.
Now, look at the picture Hugo selected to represent men. According to him, men’s brains don’t work. That shows that his message here, as always is fueled by misandry.
His articles are all the predictable and always say the same thing.
1) Whatever the problem is, it’s always a man’s fault; and
2) The only good men are (essentially) women.
The article is not the same as the picture. I don’t like the picture, and I don’t know what hugo or whoever chose the pic (authors don’t always chose the titles or artwork for their work) was thinking when they chose it. Complain about the picture, but don’t pretend you read the article when you just looked at the picture.
The purpose of an articles picture and caption is to represent the thoughts expressed in the article, which I did read. The picture was obviously chosen intentionally to represent the writer’s opinion of men, that men’s brains “don’t work.” This is wholly consistent with this article’s contents and consistent with all of his other articles that I have read. That is: men (in general, not “some” men) are bad human beings, clueless (e.g. “brain doesn’t work”), refuse to be understanding, won’t communicate, and won’t do their part to maintain a relationship (read the caption to the picture). This article and… Read more »
Hugo actually argues AGAINST the idea that ‘men’s brains don’t work’ and they just can’t handle the emotional work of dealing with the problems their wives (rightly or wrongly) bring up. He thinks that it is hard work for men to learn how to navigate emotional problems in relationships because the ‘guy code’ tells them they just aren’t built for that kind of thing, but he thinks they certainly can do it! He is encouraging men here, not putting them down. I’d give more credit to your claim that you read the article if you didn’t attribute to Hugo the… Read more »
Thank you! Someone who gets it!
Hugo is like the “bad guy/girl” on reality tv shows: he boosts the ratings with his incendia. I think the editors at TGMP need to understand that there are other measures of the merit of an article besides the number of posts and views it attracts. Look at what happened to Sally Jessy Rapheal and Don Imus when they sought ratings to the exclusions of everything else. The fact that an article based in supremacy and gender bigotry condemning men for lack of emotional range as progressive is a huge take-down to the quality of the good men project. This… Read more »
The article that Hugo’s replying to is actually worse to women than this article is to men. The article that said that husbands aren’t assholes paints women as irrational and unpleaseable, and the solution is just for women to shut up and stop having needs in a relationship. Hugo takes that article and points out two things the men are doing and explains why that doesn’t help. He makes a point to say where women aren’t perfect, but it’s clear that this article is aimed to men so it focuses on things that men can do. Being that it’s on… Read more »
A) I don’t know where you get the concept that Lisa Hickey’s comment was a smear on women.
B) You offer as a defense of Hugo’s bigotry, a different author’s bigotry? REally?
I’ve known since 8y/o that two wrongs don’t make a right.
However, three rights will get you back on the freeway.
Hugo is just blaming and shaming the victims here. Verbal and emotional abuse directed at your partner or child is considered domestic violence these days – at least when it emanates from men. This is not to say that in all cases the disapproval and denigration by the wife goes as far as to be domestic violence, but in many cases it does. Just because women may feel powerless doesn’t mean they are powerless and just because men may appear to be in a position of power doesn’t mean they are willing or capable of exercising it. We live in… Read more »
This isn’t about abusive relationships at all. Also, having been on the woman’s side of this situation, the woman does NOT have control in these situations. The guy might really want to just make her happy, but if he keeps “submarining” – ignoring her when she’s upset – or just apologizing without listening to her just to stop the fight he never, ever will make her happy. Eventually, after having the same fight again and again with your boyfriend/husband because he won’t listen to what you say, you begin to believe that he doesn’t actually care at all about what… Read more »
Of course the woman has control in these situations. She controls the goal posts. Having been the man in this arrangement, the submarining/over apologizing is a last ditch effort to find something, anything, that will work. You try to talk things out eight different ways, change behaviors according to the results of those talks, all of which lead back to the same place of your actions being inadequate in some way, and eventually you come to the conclusion that you are powerless to affect the cycle. There is something that drives the woman in your life to put you down,… Read more »
As a tangential note. Am I the only one waiting for Hugo to deliver on his promise (made on his own website) to help the men that can’t get dates? He obviously has time to write articles such as the above, so it is not the case that he is to buried in work to actually deliver.
I think there is something to the idea of a “Guy Code” about keeping your feelings to yourself. It’s overstating it to say that it’s some kind of universal male legal system, but I think it’s pretty valid to say that in American society it’s generally more socially acceptable for women to cry in public than men, for example. Just as a general phenomenon. What I think Hugo’s article overlooks is the fact that, if there is a code against men expressing their feelings, women often play a role in reinforcing that code, not just men. I’m guessing most women… Read more »
I am not surprised to see that the Up-and Down-Voting option has been removed.
After spending a few weeks here, I can see why.
When I came to this site I thought the tone of the site might be “men good, women bad”, but was hoping it would be “men good, women good”. Imagine my shock that the running narrative throughout this site is “men bad, women good”.
Why type of men’s site devotes the vast majority of its content portraying men in a negative light?
Correction –
The last line should read – What type of men’s…
Not all articles are as extreme as this one though. Some of us are trying to expose and combat that unfortunate pattern.
I feel really sad that a lot of the men who comment on this site feel as if they are being attacked, and that the message is ‘women are good, men are bad’, which is not at all what this site is trying to achieve. I assume that the men who read this blog are already great human beings or are looking for ideas in which they can improve themselves. This blog is an exchange of ideas and perspectives, articles are colored by the author’s experiences. Don’t take it as an attack on you or on all men. The authors… Read more »
If this site was about construtive dialouge Hugo Schwyzer and Amanda Marcotte would never be alowed to post or comment on anything here. These two persons have broken every moral principle they teach themselves, they have abused every position of power they have ever held. and they claim to listen to other people’s opinion but they only ever listen to the ones that tell them what they want to hear.
He’s not portraying men at a negative light. If you actually read the article without any preconceived bias, you’d realize he’s fairly explaining how unfair SOCIETY is. There IS no “men bad, women good” or vice versa. I don’t think he needs to stroke anyone’s ego here, he’s merely speaking the truth. I’m sure you’d be more than delighted if he put women down in the article, but of course since he said it how it was and didn’t necessarily boost men up and some superior gods, it was surprising. A man NOT trying to claim men are superior. Holy… Read more »
Hey GMP, I’d love to read an article on Poor, Poor, Pitiful Women: The Martyr Complex of the American Wife.
That would make the womynz heads explode.
The GoodMenProject is not a project against women, it is feminist.
Articles in general are against all men, who insist they should not only have obligations but also have rights.
Hugo is teaching us a lesson (after 4 marriages), why men are not supposed to be suffer of a Martyr Complex…
I hope that most readers recognize that these musings about the emotional and verbal inadequacies of the male sex are nothing but a stream the standard misandrous insults to which we have been subject for at least a generation, albeit softened to sound somehow less toxic than they really are. There is no point in debating with an author like this. The real question is why a magazine that purports to be devoted to men and their welfare is prepared to spit in the face of its constituency with this demeaning trash. Gentlemen, drop this publication. Try—say—The Art of Manliness.… Read more »
stephen, umm I’ve just checked that site out…why are all the images in black and white and from the 1930s? Really, I don’t want to be taken back to that era; it makes me want to puke. Whoever designed that site has poor taste. If you’re looking to instill modern notions of maniliness and bring men into the future, that website look is counter productive. GMP deals with many issues, one being GENDER, a popular topic…you can’t deal with the issue of gender fairly if you’re unwilling discuss the other gender – women – as these two are intertwined; and… Read more »
That site is awesome!
sadly, that’s where I heard the straight talk I needed, until I found some heartless bitches who ripped me a new one for my stupidity. The No Mistress and others sure know how to get a person to answer the clue phone!
Lots of heartless bitches on this site. It’s too bad they don’t clean it up.
Ever been to the heartless bitches website? The women are the direct descendants of the furies. Their detectors for bullshit,stupidity and pity parties are set on clairvoyant. Whether you are male or female they will rip you to pieces, no mercy no quarter. Failure to own your bad behaviour is NOT tolerated.
Straightened me out right quick.
I shudder to think of what they’d do to the OP here. Panty panderer is hardly an insult, what they have to say about Nice Guys (TM) is something else.
Men’s sites/blogs do frequently seem to devolve into women-haters vs. panty-panderers. Where are the balanced men who actually like women (being sexually attracted to women doesn’t mean actually like them – value them, enjoy their company, respect them, etc.) AND express genuine thoughts and opinions without thinking about virtual high-fives and panties being thrown their way?
I think you got that wrong, Hugo is a man-hater and your kinda guy.
No- Hugo would be a panty-panderer, according to you. You, however, are very clearly a woman-hater. Enjoy that! 😉
When I disagree with Hugo, does that make me a man-hater too?
Go back to your feminist site cupcake, this is for men.
Where is the woman hating here?
Feminists tend to define woman hating as anything that they don’t agree with or talking about women talking responsibility, so I find your claim a little suspect.
I find you assumption that any woman expressing an opinion you don’t agree with self-identifies as a feminist. Tuck that paranoia back in. Clearly, any piece that doesn’t bash women is suspect to you and all about man-hating.. which leads me to believe you don’t like women. If you want every article, regardless of the article’s actual topic, to be about women “taking responsibility”… you’re insane. I think it’s HILARIOUS when folks complain about an article not being about everything under the sun. This article is about the messages he’s received about manhood (specifically, not being visibly emotional) and how… Read more »
Sassy, Ill ask you again, where is the evidence of the woman hating?
Oh it’s Ron, you’re talking to. Your points are right on Sassy…every article he’s blaming women on not taking responsibility, regardless of topic…and every female who posts is automatically a man-hating feminist. lol.
Well no Taylor. Women that think that throwing unfounded charges of misogyny around is a way to debate, are usually feminists, as are women that come here to cheer on Hugos male bashing and white knighting.
Misogynist: A man who thinks women are rational, intelligent, mature human beings and expects them to act that way.
Correct.
I do not know the ages of most of the comments, but as someone in his 20s, I find most of the comments here sound as though they are suspiciously outdated. Hugo Schwyzer has been hawking the “Guy Code” in his classes and on his blog for years, and he gets it from a book that was published in 1976. He then tells his class to read writers like Michael Kimmel, simply because they continue to argue that the “Guy Code” is alive and well, while ignoring writers like Warren Farrell, who have a very different opinion. The whole trope… Read more »
Great comment Mike. I agree whole-heartedly. But as someone born in 1976 I want to emphasize that it was only 35 years ago… nowhere near 40!!!
Mike, it’s really nice and positive all the things you’re saying of your generation. But the thing is people fall into old habits, people fall into old comfortable roles (set out by their parents and major parts of society), there may be pressure to conform to what is thought tried and true. Your story is encouraging…I have no doubt the world is changing…but depending on many factors, the changes are seen as very slow or fast. But on a broader scale, most parts of the world (and not to sound negative) are are not nearly where western countries are at… Read more »
I’m glad to hear that the next generation is changing. There are a lot of women AND men out there who individually took something away from what feminism has to say. These people don’t necessarily identify as feminists but they absorbed the best parts of equality and passed it on to their kids. I think feminists would do well to ask the new generation where it wants to go and how to get there. We’re still fighting here because in our own age group (I’m thirty seven) these issues are profoundly relevant to how relationships, laws, media relations and religion… Read more »
Michelle, I definitely agree with what you have to say about non-Western countries. There is no question that, globally, there is a lot of room for improvement. I think the point I was trying to make is that I am no longer sure about people falling into “old ways” because they are “comfortable.” Looking at my own family, every single member of my grandparents’ generation was a pack-a-day (if not more) smoker at one point in their lives. My parents’ generation (mostly) gave that up, and to the best of my knowledge, my cousins and siblings have not taken the… Read more »
Mike, there definitely is a guy code, but you’re just too contemporary to understand it…lol; you sound like someone who plays fair, got a good head on his shoulder and is self-aware, plus was raised in a grounded and fair family environment, and that’s why all this guy code sound so bizarre and unreal to you. When Hugo says “no sissy stuff” in the guy code, I don’t believe he meant “looks” because that would be too obvious. Yes looks and gender are evolving and challenging the definition of what is male and what is female, definitely true. But my… Read more »
I couldn’t read all the comments, but I enjoyed the discussion between Aaron and Hugo. Aaron, I think you’re right here, but you don’t have to be so angry. Hugo, please accept that your fellow editors may have differing opinions and try not to be so patronizing (I know it’s hard your an academic in the liberal arts!). More to the point, Hugo I think you are wrong to say that there is no innate difference in the ability to verbalize emotions. Anecdotally, my 2 year old (25 month) daughter tells her brother to “stop – you make me feel… Read more »
Then you need to teach your son to verbalize his emotions. Also, if your daughter becomes a novelist, I hope she wins as many awards as men win.
I started reading GMP at first because it was the only place I could find, that gave and honest account of what it’s like to be a man now in 2011; and as a woman, a single woman, any insight into the opposite sex, I felt would make me a better more compassionate woman, and hopefully one day a good spouse. All that said, I find the comments pages here increasingly polarised, and no real discussion going on… and to be honest, all that’s going on here is just vitriol, it’s depressing, if this is what marriage is… then let… Read more »
Nicky, I think you’re confusing the arguments in the comments for some kind of “real world” battle of the sexes. The reality is that the articles by Hugo Schwyzer are infamous for analyzing all societal problems through the unthinking lense of “Somehow it must solely be the fault of men.” He has actually gone so far as to state that, in his opinion, men should always be “called out” before any sort of comment is made about women. Most of the men on this site agree with your position, that in any relationship, men and women should be equal partners.… Read more »
Hi Nicky, I also read GMP because I think it addresses a lot of issues from a “male” perspective that I generally only see from a “female” one. Just to warn you, Hugo’s articles tend to draw a lot of criticism and seem to quickly get sidetracked into pointless accusations and counter accusations of misandry and misogyny. It confused me as well at first, but I’ve decided to take it as a sign that a lot of what he writes about touches very deeply on gendered expectations of behavior. At this point I think a lot of regular commenters are… Read more »
You know what bothers me about this? All these men complain about nagging women…well you married her. And you are still with her. There has got to be something said for the friction that drives a relationship. Here is what I mean: I consider myself a very smart, attractive, reasonable and level headed woman. I have done my therapy. I enjoy sex. (A lot.) And I thought that all this would be extremely attractive to men. However, it’s not. “Men like a challenge.” Women are told that in order to get a man, “play hard to get, be mysterious, otherwise… Read more »
Hi tina
Does it bother you when women complain about their husbands being controlling?
Let me guess, when the wife turns out the be abusive, its the husbands fault, when the husband turns out to be abusive, its his fault too.
When are feminists going to develop an adult psychology?
Psychologist John Gottman, the marriage therapy guru, has stated that “the biggest revelation we’ve had about how conflicts are best resolved in successful marriages” is if husbands yield to their wives. That is, the key factor in whether a relationship will be happy and successful is whether the husband listens to and obeys his wife. In a statement that shows women’s demanding nature, Gottman also says that women bring up over 80% of marital conflicts while men tend to avoid these stressful discussions. As reported in Ms. Magazine, Dec 2010: Women, according to the JEC report, control 73 percent of… Read more »
Hugo, you shouldn’t really be talking about men in general.
You can buy into the myth of the moral and emotional superiority of the female, the feminists here will cheer you on and you will feel validated but their white knight reward system, but don’t expect the rest of us to play along with your archaic gender role playing.
Exactly.
Unsurprisingly, Hugo’s article does not reflect any of the statements made by husbands in Lisa’s articles. Lisa’s article suggests that there is a general lack of communication stemming from men who do not express their feelings because they do not think their wives will listen to them and women who do not clarify their intentions when they speak to their husbands. Nothing in any of the interview statements remotely suggested that men are incapable of expressing emotions. Indeed, the very fact that they expressed their frustrations implies they have little to no trouble expressing emotions. Ironically, just like those men’s… Read more »
But women also express themselves through words.
And in the workplace, men express themselves through both words and actions. (Women do too.)
When smart men are always told they are wrong, they will seek help and get the training they need to become more egalitarian husbands.
I don’t really know what your point is but it seems like you are just accusing men of being wrong and not egalitarian. Do you know how hard it is to find a woman to pay her own way, mow my lawn, fix my car, clean my pool and till my garden?
When smart men are always told they are wrong…they wise up and walk away. Get it through your head…no one can be wrong all the time. No one wants to be somewhere with someone constantly telling them they are wrong. If yourr man isn’t big on communication that’s why you have friends and family. So you can meet yours social needs. One person can’t be everything, all the time for years on end perfect match.
what about communication for marital needs, pillowinhell? Too often, men are bought into the notion that, they shouldn’t be social with their wives or gfs and “that’s why you have friends and family”. I actually have read dating advice columns to men, that dish out this kind of bull. No wonder miscommunication and communication problems run rampant in relationships. Men are programmed by other men to behave and act a certain way and have been told this is how to be a man in a relationship. Really terrible! If you can socialize with your buddies hours on end at a… Read more »
I think some men lack communication skills on purpose…it’s a form of control the way I see it, but they hide behind the guise of the “guy code” so that it appears more acceptable and that is “just the way men are” and with a take it or leave attitude. There are men who genuinely want to improve their relationships with improved communication skills and then I believe there are ones who don’t care because they feel not communicating too much gives them an advantage over the relationship. Just think of the “silent treatment” or “stonewalling”…the less you talk, means… Read more »
PEOPLE who use non communication as a means of control and dominance often have other areas in their lives where that tendency shows as well. They can be very rigid and judgmental which will show up everywhere. They only talk about surface issues. They steadfastly refuse to listen to or consider any opinion that does not match their own. They may openly show contempt towards others. They may not ask what you think or feel. They may use guilt trips. They frequently expect that others can read their minds or intentions. Someone with a need to control will show that… Read more »
Very true description!
Oh so immediately before the knot is tied they stop communicating? Yes there are men who use non communication as a means of control and plenty of women too. But if the couple was dating, there were probably a few red flags that there were things he doesn’t like to discuss. Or that there were things that should have been thought about by both sides and negotiated. In my experience (which has dealt extensively with non communicating men I’ve dated) there were all kinds of issues that should have been talked about but were scrupulously avoided. And there were plenty… Read more »
So basically you’re saying who ever has better communication skills should take the lead and try to work things out with their SO…by that, offering suggestions, solutions and options, so he/she does not need to think or get involve deeply, and provide you with answer A,B, or C? If that works for you and your partner, good on you both. Your method may come in handy every now and then…but to rely on one partner to always be the negotiator or solutions expert doesn’t sound right. Most women aren’t looking to parent their husband, as though they’re children, in the… Read more »
Hell no ! If I wanted another child I’d have another child! If your partner is uncommunicative as a means of manipulation, that will show up when you’re dating. I suggest you run. If your partner used to be a good communicator, then what I wrote above takes some pressure off your partner. In the meantime you keep your emotional balance by taking care of your needs, without building up anger and resentments which fuel nagging and judgement. If you have a better balance, you can hear what your partner has to say without knee jerk reactions and accusations. Which… Read more »
Besides, this is what we negotiated together for the eventual arguments at the very beginning of our relationship. And somehow I don’t see how having the partner with the worst conflict skills lead the show all the time benefits either of us. Truth to tell my SO and I are roughly equivalent in relationship skills.
Okay, I got what you’re saying 😀
You may need to seek professional help for that unadulterated man-hate festering in you.
Michelle, why do you assume the problem with communication lies with men? Read Lisa’s article. The women she interviewed lack proper communication skills. Instead of being direct with their husbands, they expect their husbands to just know their intent. That is piss poor communication. This “when in doubt, blame men” nonsense does not help anyone. It just creates resentment because men are constantly told that their feelings and opinions do not matter. I cannot blame men who walk away or shut down when it is clear that their wives will not listen to them and fault them for everything. That… Read more »
And did you read Hugo’s article? How men lack emotional skills to communicate with their partners? Women shouldn’t have to talk to their husbands like children like “Honey, we need a new carton of eggs soon, OKAY?” , “Darling, I can’t pick up the kids today, can you do that please, OKAY?”, “Look, my leg is sore, we can’t have sex tonight, OKAY? You get the picture. Women would like to think men are more emotionally skilled than children, yes there are times when people need to speak in a direct manner, but there are lots of times when you… Read more »
Yes, I unfortunately did read Hugo’s article. What he wrote fits the general feminist perspective on men, but it does not match what actual men state or experience. If I have choose between bigoted rhetoric and real-life experiences, I will go with the latter. Many women think men lack emotional skills, yet that tends not to be true. What tends to be true is that men do not value verbal expression as much as women do. Likewise, women tend to consider their wants, desires, and requests as reasonable, clear, and fair, when to many men and some women they come… Read more »
Like I said before, people need to be sure who they marry and communication styles should match, and know how much verbal communication and contact you want from a partner. “Many women think men lack emotional skills, yet that tends not to be true. What tends to be true is that men do not value verbal expression as much as women do.” You’re using the Guy Code to excuse men. I think it’s both. Men who don’t value verbal expression start so in their younger years; so overtime and as they become adults, they have trained themselves to lack emotional… Read more »
I think you get what you expect. If you think that men are emotionless jerks who can’t communicate then that’s the kind of men you’ll pick. If, however, you believe men are responsible caring people capable of telling you what they need and want and giving you what you need and want then those are the men you find. Unless you shut them down, won’t listen to what they say if it isn’t phrased correctly and generally disrespect them by nagging to get something they don’t willingly wish to give. They may stay in the relationship but they certainly won’t… Read more »
I am the common denominator? How non-accusing is that? You forget the most crucial denominator – in men: testosterone, and HIGH levels of it And what did studies say about that male hormone? The less you have of it, the more empathetic, emotional one is? If that is the case, women have a lot of kissing frogs in order to find the ones with lower testosterone. You are right with “I think you get what you expect”. People who have certain expectations don’t settle and will get what they expect. The way you are speaking of men, such as shutting… Read more »
Sorry Michelle, I think you and I have similar lines of thinking but its not getting through. As far as the common denominator goes….I spent years dating the so called guy code men. It has nothing to do with guys being guys. If the only men I date are jerks or wont talk does that mean that’s the only guys out there? Or does it mean that the way I view men predisposes me to choose the guys who behave this way? Well, there are plenty of men in my family who do not live by the “guy code”, so… Read more »
Not too sure what you’re saying…you don’t even know me… I hate hockey games…I rather poke my eyes out than watch them. And on the same note, I’d rather be single than stuck with someone who’s not social or communicative. Men are always saying they don’t want to be changed, they want to be accepted as they are. So if they go by the GUY CODE, they want to be accepted for that too. If they have a porn addiction, or do drugs…they wanted to be accepted for them too. I refuse to date men with bad habits. But you’re… Read more »
Okay. We seem to be laboring under some miscommunication here. So maybe some background from me will help… The guys who weren’t communicative were men I dated in the past. At the time, taking charge of my own happiness helped me avoid resentment while we tried to negotiate a compromise. It took a few rounds for me to realize what you already know. Uncommunicative men aren’t worth the time because I value a man who willing and able to speak for himself. In my books, they have every right to live and operate in any way they please, so no… Read more »
Okay I understand your situation better. In summary, if I read your post correctly: He acknowledges that you two haven’t been spending much time together and tells you why, and you accepted his response; he realizes he needs make up for this somehow to let you know you’re still on his radar, so he compromises and offers to pick you up after your sewing classes, which you’ve been taking to pass time when he is not available. His unavailability is not long-term, so you decided to stick it out with him and it worked for you and him. Great story!
Thank you Taylor! You have it bang on. I apologize for the length of my post, but really I couldn’t think of how to write it more succinctly.
The other point is that I knew going into the relationship that his daughters and job would affect how much time we spend together. So when I found myself unhappy, it wasn’t right to expect him to change.
Sometimes we forget that taking charge of our own lives is liberating. Nagging is frustrating, and it makes us feel helpless and angry.
These are not rhetoric. They are examples of real life experiences which have been revised a bit, so it’s cleaner for here and shorter to read. lol. Do you want long-winded examples and explanations?
Replace the sore leg with menstruation…so it becomes “Look, I’m menstruating, we can’t have sex tonight, OKAY? Now that’s a little too much information you say, a little too real? lol. Well, don’t nit-pick and question my examples for next time because I can always give you the dirty and long version of things 😉
Lol michelle! Caught you implying that (a) menstruation is dirty and shouldn’t be talked about, and (b) that despite living with women, men can’t handle a simply fact of biology.
So who is letting whom off the hook now?
For the sake of argument, let’s blame the “man code” for men not sharing their feelings.
Is that men’s own fault that they are affected by external factors? Is that men’s own fault that when they try to share their feelings it is invalidated? No, it’s societies fault and that includes women too.
It is not men’s own fault that they are affected by external factors. Everyone is affected by external factors. Yes, it is society’s fault and that includes women. But overall, women have done much more work than men in trying to make society abolish the “guy/man code.” And it is very demeaning to hear people denigrate the great work these women and men have done, especially when they’re benefitting so much from it. I don’t blame men for being affected by the guy/man code (or women for being affected by the subservient woman code).. However, I get very irritated when… Read more »
I have a different perception of what feminists like Hugo are doing about abolishing the man-code. I don’t really like the word man-code and I don’t like much about traditional forms of masculinity. Society exerts pressure on both men and women to conform to a certain standard based on the societal values of the time. I liken this to a box where people are limited. Women have made great strides in opening the box and giving themselves options and choices. Some men are still restricted to that old box and there still are societal pressures. Feminists (like Hugo) are not… Read more »
“Some men are still restricted to that old box and there still are societal pressures. Feminists (like Hugo) are not attempting to open that box for men, but rather offer men a shiny new box that they have to conform to..” Well if something isn’t working…why would you re-use something that is broken or band-aid it? Hugo is offering alternatives ways of thinking and doing for men (if you want to call it “shiny new box”). Men have been using archaic and patriarchal rules to live by since cavemen times…it’s time to move away from the traditional model as it’s… Read more »