This is a comment by Web on the post “Everyone’s Got Their Own Favorite Smut“.
You know, this is something I had genuinely never thought of. That women’s erotic fiction is perfectly acceptable, no matter what the fantasy, but men’s pornography is controversial and borderline misogyny. The difference being in imagery vs literature.
And maybe this is the underlying root of the conundrum: Focusing in on the physical and ignoring the verbal.
- The reason men’s sexual attraction is considered unacceptable for being more appearance-dependent, while women’s sexual attraction can be just as superficial, but is more accepted.
- The reason people will see a depression as a social problem, but violence as little more than personal immorality.
I know it’s a long shot, but when two subjects as similar as erotica and pornography are compared side-by-side with such differing responses, you close one of the degrees of freedom.
(In mathematics, this would be considered a dependent correlation. By holding one variable constant (sexual content) the other two variables (Medium, Public Response) are codependent. With sexual content held constant, the public response must be dependent on the medium.)
Photo credit: Flickr / rachelkramerbussel.com
I wonder if somebody can explain to me the difference between watching people have sex and watching ballet or football?
Apparently not
If you think having sex is like playing football you’re doing it wrong. Also, I’m concerned for your partner. I hope you give her a good helmet.
I’m going to disagree with the statement that started this discussion. I write erotic books. The way I’ve been treated for it has been downright appalling a few times. Even if I dont admit I write but just read the books it hasn’t been a socially acceptable thing to say. Sure things like 50 Shades are making it a little more friendly to talk about books with erotic content, but there’s still plenty of hate to go around.
The reason men’s sexual attraction is considered unacceptable for being more appearance-dependent
Sigh. Let’s generalize about “men’s” sexual attraction because obviously we’re all the same.
(And please don’t respond with some meaningless statistics from some bullshit study.)
All very valid points, but think about this secnario. The other night a woman was reading Fifty Shades of Grey while sitting in the kids section of Barnes and Nobles (her son was running around looking at books) and no one said a word. But if a man was reading Penthouse Forum (all words also) he would be escorted from the store by store security or the police.
One reason that sexually explicit text seems more socially acceptable than sexually explicit images is that our society fortunately still has some degree of reverence for the printed word. To the majority of people there is still something nauseating to the idea of banning or burning a book. If it’s “smut” but it’s bound and printed in traditional font then there is a certain respectability to it. Meanwhile, destroying a poster or video or taking down a website is hardly taboo at all. We generally make a subjective technological distinction about which media are more sacrosanct — burning books is… Read more »
Just so. It’s the same thing as sex toys: it’s perfectly fine for a woman to own a vibrator, but the man who owns a fleshlight is a creep, a perv, and obviously can’t get laid.
Agree with the dynamic you mention: woman owning vibrator = empowering (there’s even hints to this affect in media). Man owning a sextoy = pitiable. However, I have to at least say that I haven’t seen the 2nd portion of that sentiment come from feminists but from men and women in general. Not that you made this claim, but several seem to be discussing sex-positive vs sex-negative feminists and what their views mean. Where I do see feminists (either rightly or wrongly) kicking up a fuss is when men own sex dolls. I have tripped across articles like that several… Read more »
However, I have to at least say that I haven’t seen the 2nd portion of that sentiment come from feminists but from men and women in general.
No not that they are pitiable but a presumption of owning a sex toy being some sort of objectification (reducing her to the pleasing bits).
There’s plenty of pro-porn feminism out there, and there’s plenty of anti-porn rhetoric that is not at all feminist. To bundle together feminist and anti-porn views is, at best, a gross oversimplification. It *is* true that there’s a relation between feminism and the fact that (women’s) erotic literature is (now) culturally acceptable. Making it acceptable for women to (publicly) enjoy sex(uality) and eroticism has after all been a major drive for the feminist movement. It’s not that long ago that things were quite different; Nancy Friday’s “My Secret Garden” was highly controversial when originally published, as was other women-POV erotic… Read more »
Great points here. There are a lot of issues getting conflated all together when they are actually somewhat distinct. I even detect a little circular reasoning sometimes, like:
Pornography disempowers women, so if women produce a work of porn it is not porn anymore.
Or,
Pornography disempowers women, so no women would make porn if they had a choice. They would only make erotica.
Fortunately for me, my tastes are rather pedestrian. All I need is the American Apparel ads on this GMP website. A great example of the way that porn is incredibly hard to define….
I would disagree and say that this view is tragically naive. I don’t really read women’s erotic fiction, but the small bits I have read and have seen features many taboos and misogyny. I mean, look at Twilight for instance. Sure there are millions of people who love it but there are plenty of people who are offended by: – Necrophilia – Bestiality – Rewarding engaging in romance with your stalker Other common offensive aspects that come out: – Incest – Romanticising abusive relationships (including rape leads to romance) – Rewarding gold digging and learned helplessness – Ridiculous career expectations… Read more »
Another quick point I wanted to throw out there, in response to a tweet I saw about how porn generates real abuse victims where as erotic fiction does not, is one set of male erotic fiction that challenges that ideal. John Norman’s Gor series. Many feminists consider this series to be very damaging because after the first three books it basically turns into misogynist rhetoric which is consumed and internalised by many people. It has had a huge impact on many people’s lives, personal philosophy’s, view of their sexuality etc. Likewise there is the demographic who are not considered victims… Read more »
What is also still somewhat controversial among different feminist viewpoints is the issue of “domination” as a consensual sexual practice, which is in some ways closely connected to the question of whether porn can be feminist. If there is a sexual fantasy of a woman being dominated, can that be a harmless sexual fantasy, or is it by its very nature an exploitation of women? Different feminists have different opinions on the matter. Can one consent to be in a submissive role without furthering your own exploitation? If the Gor fantasy novels inspire sub/dom fantasies, does that therefore mean that… Read more »
Hey Kim, Regarding your hit list, I agree. But, this hit list seems to be what women want. I would say that romantic/erotic literature is women’s equivalent of men playing video games all day. People want men and women to change, but they continue to want what they want. Of course, the important thing to remember is that this is fantasy. Regarding your hit list you said: – Romanticising abusive relationships (including rape leads to romance) I don’t know how many are old enough to remember Luke and Laura of General Hospital. When I was a teenager since my mother… Read more »
Browsing the feminist blogosphere I’ve probably seen more negative criticisms of Romance novels than porn videos, though that’s mostly because of the Twilight series, which was called a “Feminist’s nightmare” for good reason, and the fact that a female feminist is more likely to come across a romance novel. On the other hand, the previous generation of feminists are known for a whole movement that was basically against the very idea of pornography. Catherine Mackinnon essentially defined pornography as “erotica + misogyny” while simultaneously making a career out of calling porn misogynist. Back on the first hand, the current crop… Read more »
There are lots of different variants of porn. Even within the genre that could be called erotica there is definitely a large spectrum between things that could simply be called good clean dirty fun and things really misogynistic. I used to be a fan of the porn of the 80’s and 90’s. The so-called porn with a plot. Today’s porn which mini-sex only session after session shot in a studio to make an 80 minute movie are just desensitizing. I think the porn with a plot roots (on VHS rather than on film) was not so bad. It basically just… Read more »
If we could somehow combine this “I think the porn with a plot roots (on VHS rather than on film) was not so bad. It basically just reveled in the male fantasy of women wanting sex so badly (or the male star being so handsome) that the women initiated.”
with a denouement of the man being somehow romantically thrilled with the woman, that there was a respect (if not relationship) then we might have the perfect type of porn for both men and women.
In the older porn-with-a-plot vhs movies, no it didn’t seem like what was taking place was in the confines of a relationship, or even necessarily romantic. However, that was on both parties parts. IN these movies, the female actor played a role in which she was hitting on the guy (which feeds into the fantasy most men have but get very little of in real life of feeling sexually desirable). The primary thing was it was typically the woman who expressed lust, initiated, changed positions etc.. The ultimate male fantasy is one in which he is seen as desirable by… Read more »
There should be a middle ground that everybody enjoys.
Agreed.
“If we could somehow combine this “I think the porn with a plot roots (on VHS rather than on film) was not so bad. It basically just reveled in the male fantasy of women wanting sex so badly (or the male star being so handsome) that the women initiated.” with a denouement of the man being somehow romantically thrilled with the woman, that there was a respect (if not relationship) then we might have the perfect type of porn for both men and women.” Perfect porn or perfect relationship? Isn’t that like what people assume the early stage of many… Read more »
Eric, that is so true. I mean think about the book 50 shades of Grey, if there was written from the perspective of the man, there would be cries to have it banned.
What makes a difference is not just the sex of the protagonist but the (apparent) sex of the author. People call something “women’s erotic fiction” usually when the author is (to all appearances) a woman, regardless of content. I think a lot of people just find it more acceptable and by definition “not porn” when the author is a woman, because of course men would only write such a thing for exploitation while women would only write such a thing for empowerment. Actually, the naïve reader doesn’t even need to know for sure that the author of a particular book… Read more »
The nature of erotic fiction is different, there is written porn, then there are novels that happen to have a sexual element, both can be described as ‘erotic fiction’ and those that view porn as bad view it as bad whether it’s written, filmed or drawn, but I must ask them where they draw the line between the ‘evil evil porn’ and their so called ‘harmless erotic fiction’
If men preferred erotic fiction and women preferred images, we would hear virtually the same criticism, just in reverse. The visual would be perfectly acceptable while the written word would be considered disrespectful of women and misogynistic.