Mark Greene asks, “Do some women who encourage men to be more emotional and engaged, end up losing respect for the men who do so?”
Late last night, I followed a series of tweets by GMP Editor Joanna Schroeder who was in a conversation about men and the expression of emotions.
At one point Schroeder said the following:
I’m having a hard time formulating all my issues here. It boggles my mind that we’ve been asking [men] to be more emotional and engaged, and when they become emotional and engaged we say, “That’s too much!” I mean, talk about expecting perfection. Life is growth and effort.
I went to sleep thinking about a question which haunts me on an ongoing basis. For all of us. Culturally. And that question is: Do some women who encourage men, as Joanna says, to “be more emotional and engaged” end up losing respect for the men who do so?
I admit it could take a decade or two to unpack all the implications of the phrase “be more emotional and engaged”. This request by women to men covers a vast range of relational, emotional, and functional markers. It means very different things to different people. I take it to mean, at its base, that men are 1) being asked to increase emotional communication and 2) address basic issues of fairness in how gender roles in households are organized. If the stereotypical 1950’s dad worked his job and did little to help raise the kids or clean the house, the modern man is asked to be much more engaged, and in some cases to take over the home and child rearing while wives pursue their careers.
What percentage of women are actually asking some variation on this of their men? Is this request coming out of feminist quarters, or is it a function of the breakdown of gender silos, or what exactly? They’re good questions, but regardless of the answers, I think we can all agree the trend is out there.
So, if I ended my day thinking about the tweets Joanna sent, I ran smack into the other bookend this morning—a book review by Liz Mundy of the San Francisco Chronicle. She is reviewing a novel by British author Rachel Cusk titled Aftermath: On Marriage and Seperation.
Mundy writes:
Not long ago, in an online blog of the Wall Street Journal, a wife made a confession. A high-earning editor and the breadwinner in her family, she admitted that she resents her husband for being supportive and domestically hands-on. Far from being grateful that he makes her job and family life possible by taking on the role of primary caregiver to their son, she feels burdened and jealous. While some of her objections are fair – supporting a household is scary, as men have long known – others, she acknowledged, aren’t.
Her piece is a reminder that women, like men, can be emotionally retrograde even as they are progressive and ambitious; it’s not always men who have trouble adapting to female achievement and female earning.
The same dynamic is at work in “Aftermath,” Rachel Cusk’s bleak and rather bravely unsympathetic memoir of marital dissolution. Cusk, a British novelist, sketches a scenario whereby she maneuvered her husband into the role of househusband, then scorned him for occupying it. She is not sure whom to blame for this radical inconsistency: her feminism, her parents, her schooling, or simply whatever was in the water when she was growing up.
It got me thinking, maybe this whole gender role adjustment thing is a hell of a lot harder than we know. Because it’s not just about men taking on new roles and ways of being, its about women and men unpacking the very real and conflicted emotions the reality of this can create. Its fine for a woman to wish for a husband who will stay home with the kids a support her career. But what if that woman then wakes up one morning resenting her husband for it? Now imagine how he feels.
Is there some vast emotional and sexual landscape that exists in direct conflict with the modern women’s request for men to “be more emotional and engaged?” Do some women struggle with what Mundy calls the emotionally retrograde side; yearning for a more traditional man even as they seek an egalitarian marriage?
It’s a question that begs a larger conversation.
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Read more by Mark Greene:
The Ugly and Violent Death of Gender Conformity
When “Check Your Male Privilege” Becomes a Bludgeon
Why Are Death Rates Rising for Middle Aged White Americans?
When Men Keep Demanding Sex From Their Partners Over and Over
How the Man Box Can Kill Our Sons Now or Decades from Now
Why Traditional Manhood is Killing Us
Why Do We Murder the Beautiful Friendships of Boys?
How America’s Culture of Shame is a Killer for Boys
The Culture of Shame: Men, Love, and Emotional Self-Amputation
The Man Box: Why Men Police and Punish Others
The Man Box: The Link Between Emotional Suppression and Male Violence
The Lack of Gentle Platonic Touch in Men’s Lives is a Killer
Touch Isolation: How Homophobia Has Robbed All Men of Touch
Boys and Self-Loathing: The Conversations That Never Took Place
The Dark Side of Women’s Requests of Progressive Men
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I really enjoy your thoughtful, balanced and well-considered essays, Mark. Especially in comparison to a lot of what I consider “White Knight feminism”, which comes off as a sort of holier-than-thou stance of many men. I generally reject all binary views. Male/female, gay/straight, Democrat/Republican… no binary view can ever define any human being fully. We are all capable of being just as good or as awful as any other human being on the planet. So when the issue of “privilege” comes up, it’s incredibly important to be clear about from whence you speak. Which thankfully you do. I’m not a… Read more »
The problems described are hardly new, but maybe seen in a new light as male and female switch roles here. Working husbands sure have experienced these feelings of burden and jealousy towards their housewifes before. But this is not a problem of gender, it is a problem of capitalism that creates these unbalanced and ridiculous values of work. Though no less hard, stressful and important, homemaking is often not recognized as work by the earning part. When effiency and income define a person’s social worth, the supporter’s work is easily minified, no matter the gender.
Instead of blaming women and feminism, which is both counter productive and not going to help fix anything, if we’re going to talk about the way women respond when men behave in an emotionally sensitive way, we should be talking about the expression of certain social pressures. This is not a conversation I’ve seen happen (I wish it was), but what we find desirable in others is highly, HIGHLY informed by culture. Orientation may be fixed, but what we do with it appears to be variable as hell. I agree that women sometimes respond with rejection, and that this can… Read more »
I believe we are all subject to multiple layers of social and psychological conditioning around gender roles, and this is a complex issue from an emotional and psychological standpoint. It’s facile to blame it on feminism, as some of the above readers seem to. My own personal experience when my long-time spouse began to become more emotionally open and vulnerable was not loss of respect, but a much more primal kind of FEAR. I mean, I already knew I was messed up, so if he was equally messed up, where did that leave us? Also, if he was going to… Read more »
I take offense with some of you overusing the word “feminism.” Why the negative connotation toward that word? I have always considered myself a feminist, but now have a word for the rampant inequalities women face. Feminists are not all nazi-feminists who burn their brasand hate all men. The word “feminist” to me means being a woman living in a world of degradation, patriarchy and inequality and having to march and protest against the “war on women”. If you think there isn’t a war on women, you’re not paying attention. Moving backward in our “fight” is dismaying, to say the… Read more »
I have seen this happen in heterosexual relationships as well. The current gendered power imbalance produces both male and female identities. Women do need to confront their own sexist conditioning as well as men.
I think people continue to habour the WRONG idea about feminism and what it stands for. You are thinking of the olden day feminism while the modern day feminism looks different. To help you understand, here is a qoute and a link to a great site about what modern day feminism is about. “Letting Him Make All the Moves vs. Doing What You Feel In popular culture and society, there’s this idea that even though women have made a lot of gains, they still shouldn’t be the person to initiate things in romantic or sexual relationships, particularly with men. Women… Read more »
I’m only sorry that this conversation so quickly became one about feminism. Not my intention at all. Some posters are very quick to attack feminism as the source of all problems. It is neither the source of all problems nor the solution to all problems. It is a diverse and very complex network of ideas that, like any ideology, can be used to hurt or heal.
“olden day feminism”? Are you referring to a few decades ago when feminists were fighting for the right to vote? Or in the 70s when feminists were fighting for the right to sign a lease or a bank loan without our husband’s or father’s signature?
Yeah, thankfully THOSE stupid feminists aren’t around anymore.
Interesting article, good thing I found it before tackling the subject for an article of my own. I was actually discussing this last night when thinking about what to write on. Women love to say how sensitive men are sexy, yet every time they find a sensitive man, they drop them into the Friendzone! Worst yet, they take that agressive go getter alpha male and change his ways. If they break up, now they have a sensitive man crying all over, blaming the fact that he became sensitive for what? I am not promoting the Macho man, but removing the… Read more »
Good article that of course only scratches the surface of the social, biological and cultural of the relations between men and women. Part of it is that we’re not far enough along in the change to see something else. Many women were raised in both a traditional home yet in the world of the feminist perspective. So on one hand they want all that but don’t realize there’s a trade off. I want what I’m comfortable with. My dad was unemotional, breadwinner etc, and I want you to Ber that until I don’t. Men are just the reverse. Raised the… Read more »
One of the reasons men get so emotionally dependent, I’m going to suggest, is not because we’re emotionally fluent; it’s because we’re still very narrow about whom we can be emotionally fluent with, that so much emotional burden gets placed on our partners. Does that suggestion resonate with anyone? I mean, ironically, as much as I complain that ex-girlfriends can pick up a new boyfriend within a week, and it always takes me at least a year (and I know I whinge about that a lot) it means I actually am not burdened with a fear of being single in… Read more »
I’m going on 5 years myself. It has taken me a very long time to recover from my last marriage but I have friends that have to line up a boyfriend before they break up with the one they have. What you’re saying has a lot of truth, at least for some.
Forgot to subscribe.
How do you have a relationship with someone who isn’t emotional and engaged?
I would suggest that my mother’s generation did it more often than not. In some cases it was the woman who was not emotionally engaged, in some cases the man. Men often cheated. Women withheld. Go back before birth control or further. Generational patterns were set that are still playing out.
One big question is, SO WHAT if that woman loses respect for you when you show your true self? If she asked for you to reveal your true self and you do and she doesn’t like it, then ultimately you are much better off without her. Her respect for you isn’t really respect for you if it’s based on an illusion that you’re maintaining. No man should feel like he has to keep a woman’s respect at all costs, especially if the cost is playing a role that’s not true to who you are. On some level, it may not… Read more »
While I agree with you in spirit this is still something that is worth discussing. We often talk about how men are having trouble adjusting to a world where gender roles are no longer the same. But much less talked about is the reaction some women have when men try to be “modern men”. They often find themselves wanting someone more traditionally masculine, leaving men in an odd position.
Yep.
Women differ from one another. There will always be women who prefer a man with a personality that is seen as “traditional masculinity”, and others who prefer men who are seen as more “modern”, and so on. And women who prefer the same in other women. And men who prefer the same in women and/or men. In the end, it’s all about being yourself and finding someone you like and who likes you back. And really, it shouldn’t be that difficult to adjust to a world only because you can’t own women as property and aren’t supposed to be superior… Read more »
@ ccd: I think the point you raise cuts to the core of the primary problem men have with feminism; it’s lack of consistency and habit of ignoring blatant double standards on myriad issues relative to role changes and equality. Feminism”s lack of commitment to being held accountable for these mistakes is part of the problem. It is devastating to tell one’s husband he should be the SAHD only to later discover that because he did exactly what you asked of him, to make this great sacrifice, that he is no longer attractive to you. All men want to know… Read more »
To both posts, I wouldn’t say it’s fair to blame feminism, which is rather diverse. Rather, this is an issue some women (and their partners) work through, regardless of -isms.
Megan, I agree, and thank you for your perspective here. There are plenty of feminists, myself and many others (some of whom are men) included, who believe that the liberation from oppressive gender roles depends on men & women working together. This entails willingness to work together and carve out time and space for compassionate dialogue to co-create a new paradigm. Everyone should be allowed to be a whole person. When we can do that, we can raise healthy children and create a more welcoming world for them to also explore and discover the fullness of who they are. That’s… Read more »
There are many opportunities available to create the type of changes in society that would benefit both men and women. One thing seems clear, unilateral approaches, like that of feminism, don’t work. Their approach is reliant upon exascerbating divisions based on the selective condemnation of gender bias. What one side of the gender coin does impacts the other, for better or worse. In the new world where the unpredictably work and career are increasingly defining both men and women, flexilibilty of identity and role are essential.
“unilateral approaches, like that of feminism”
Ummm… which approach would that be? There is no single “feminist” strategy for fighting entrenched gender inequality – although lumping feminism into one narrow definition and then dismissing it certainly helps keep male supremacy in place.
Agreed. There is nothing unilateral about feminism. It is a wide ranging and extremely diverse ideology that runs the gamut of social and political strategies. You might as well claim that Christianity’s approaches are unilateral.
The only thing that’s unilateral about feminism is that they want equality without responsibility
LOL. Women have always bore far more responsibility on this plane. Women do 2/3 of the world’s work, earn 10% of its wealth, and own 1% of its land. Give your head a shake. Maybe over a book.
Lumping “men” into one narrow definition, then dismissing them, certainly keeps the “male supremacist boogeyman” in place. And it’s a stock tactic.
What’s unilateral about feminism?
Glad you asked.
Let’s start with the name: “Femin-ism.”
@ccd: You make some good points many of which are supported by testimony on this and other sites. Feminism has, like some Republicans have done, ignored the impact of science on the endeavors of humankind.In this case biology, to fit a political agenda. However, I believe,due to humankinds ability to adapt to change, it is possible to overcome certain genetic limitations.This gives our species a survival advantage over others.Men have always, based on scientific and experiential evidence, had the ability to be great primary caregivers. Men stepped up in and been primary care givers because of death, mental and physical… Read more »
“It got me thinking, maybe this whole gender role adjustment thing is a hell of a lot harder than we know. Because it’s not just about men taking on new roles and ways of being, its about women and men unpacking the very real and conflicted emotions the reality of this can create.” Yeah, its more than just more difficult, it is completely contrary to nature. Did you see that researchers have recently have identified a “mommy gene”, a gene that predisposes women to be mothers. It is not found in men. I know this may be feminist heresy, but… Read more »
Of course only women have this gene, only women can be “mommies”. Also females naturally have, in general, to take care of the kids. Now that says shit about “housekeeping”, “support” (other than the baby) and even less “wife”, as we aren’t monogamous and females need variety, even the monogamous ones. And sure, let’s reserve the great “damage” (like women being able to vote, work outside, follow her own dreams, be sexually satisfied, have more than 1 sexual partner, not having to obey men, being seen as equal and not as inferior anymore, etc.) feminism caused, uh? That’s all okay,… Read more »
I’ve never seen so many outdated gender stereotypes in one comment thread, but… Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the premise of the article is true (in my experience, it’s not, but that’s another topic). Did you stop to think it’s because we’re simply flipping gender roles, without examining what’s valued/sexy/important and why? Back in the Dark Ages, before women were granted the nearly equal rights we enjoy today, society mandated this same thing of women: be caring and nurturing, don’t be afraid to cry, having and tending children is the most important thing (indeed the only thing)… Read more »
For someone showing dislike for stereotypes you sure do generalize quite a bit about men and women in the past huh? You use stereotypes of the past for what point?
When you say still seen as feminine hopefully you mean women too because that is the point of most of the comments on the thread, but you might not see that clearly since your mindset at least when writing your last comment is defensive in nature for ideological reasons most likely.
This article, the comments, the links to the article–the whole enchilada–stands as a radical testament to the need for men to embrace and cultivate true masculinity. I’ll call it the paleomasculine movement, though I don’t identify or even agree with some of the others who are using that term. Men need to eat healthy, work out, maintain healthy testosterone levels, and create & maintain male safe spaces in order to develop and maintain true masculinity. Men need to stay away from the feminist-propaganda bullshit that the need to “share their feelings.” It takes a lot of trust for men to… Read more »
You know I do understand the frustrations of many of the men here but I think it’s starting to become too damn generalized, and some comments are sexist even or damn close to it. Of course trust needs to be built but can you really apply the same thought to every woman out there? Women do differ person to person and I think that is important to remember. Some may look down on you for opening up whilst others will feel closer, some will be less attracted, others more attracted, I think it’s impossible to say most will do X.… Read more »
I’m a sexist. I admit it. I believe that women don’t understand their own attraction circuits, and like it that way. Yes, that’s a generalization. Some stoves are hot, and such stoves will burn your skin if you touch them. Another generalization. Get burned a few times, generalizations become an adaptive strategy to prevent tissue loss. To prevent burns, one tests the stove, gets nearer to it without touching it. Again, trust must be earned. How can one NOT apply that to all women, or all people, for that matter? Only after demonstrating a positive response to some small emotional… Read more »
It’s the same kind of drawing on ones experience that can lead to racism, etc though. Sure it is what you know but do you have an adequate sample size to suggest it’s true of all women, or just all women you meet or want to date?
@Archy
Agreed that women are not all the same that goes for men too, the reason as males in general & in this article anyway, we are being asked to drop our guard & open up in total disregard to men’s negative realities on average when it comes to which gender losses the most when relationships sour & end.
I agree Archy, some posts generalize far to much. Not all women are the same and not all men are the same. So although some experiences may be similar they are not entirely unique to one gender (women going after the alpha male, men going after the slutty girl).
I see no point in super generalizations.
I have two different responses to the question. They aren’t mutually exclusive, just two different reactions I have: 1. If you choose to be more open, more emotionally available, or more well-rounded as a person, you should do it in order to improve your life. It should not be just to try to make someone else happy. If you have grown as a person and someone else has less respect for you, then that person is in the wrong. That person needs to grow up and work on her own issues or hit the road. Being a better person is… Read more »
Amen to that! If a man chooses to be a “Good Man” progressive or otherwise, he should do it as a reflction of his own values and for his own benefit. The world doesn’t owe you bupkis. What a sick joke nature played on us for needing female validation in the 1st place.
Well, women go just as far, if not further, for male acceptance. Down deep, both sexes want validation and acceptance from the other.
I think there’s a general misunderstanding of what equality is. People have a tendency to think that if they want to rid themselves of gender stereotypes, they need to live a life which breaks those stereotypes. This of course is not at all real equality, it’s just an alternative set of stereotypes. And living according to stereotypes that don’t match with what you really out of a relationship will inevitably make you more or less unhappy, no matter which stereotype you pick. (Some stereotypes are of course more harmful than others though.) Equality in a relationship is when the partners… Read more »
@1753
I think you hit the nail on the head Sir, I like to add that anybody who thinks equality means exact out comes always in both genders are misguided.
We tell women all the time if you’re not getting what you want out of a relationship, you have the agency to leave. If a woman leaves you because you were honest about your feelings or she didn’t want to be “there for you”, you’re better off without her. If a woman continues to pressure you into doing something your uncomfortable with, you should rethink that relationship.
There is one point of this SAHD thing that hasn’t been adressed. In 10 or 15 years (maybe more) when the kids are grown and the SAHDs reenter the work force, what exactly are they going to reenter as? I mean, are they going to try the so called ‘Pink Collar’ carrers ( Medical Billing, School T.A.’s, etc) if so , GOOD LUCK. You wouln’t believe the sexual bias against men in those fields! Back to the world of coperate business? Don’t know how serious corperate types would take 45-50 year old ‘rookies’! Any one have any Ideas on this?
The feminine needs the masculine. I am not talking about gender or even sexual orientation. Both male and female are a mix of the masculine (logic, aggressiveness…ravishor) and feminine (emotional, empathy… ravishee), it is a matter of degrees. A person who has 100% feminine traits would be a doormat. A person with 100% masculine traits would be close to being, if not, a psychopath. A female with more feminine traits can be a CEO or in a high pressure job, they would have to tap into the masculine to be effective, but having empathy could be an asset in certain… Read more »
Emotion is masculine, actually. Sentiment is feminine. Reason is masculine, logic is feminine. Both are aggressive, but one is active-aggressive while the other is passive-aggressive.
The masculine doesn’t take any lead, but the initiative. Both can lead together.
“Even male homosexual relationships have a top and a bottom.”
God, that hurts. Top is usually only about being the one that penetrates, and bottom the one that gets penetrated. Most gay couples are versatile. But that says nothing about their roles in the relationship, their masculinity or femininity and so on.
By the time anyone (especially men) gets to any kind of maturity, they should be able to recognize types that they can have relationships with over time comfortably, so I don’t buy that women are the only consumers with a choice in a relationship.
Of course, eveyone (men included) has at least one type they’re attracted to, but where it doesn’t work. Avoid permanent relationship with this one. Something tells me that this one (whoever she is) would be the one to bail. But any stay at home person should have (IMHO) an outward-facing career or hobby too.
One thing I’ve noticed,which I think contributes to why men are kneedeep in bs,they too darn passive.
@ogwriter…
Too many men have been neutered. Most have done it to themselves.
Women have adjusted to the new reality very well. We men are laggards.