Savas Abadsidis and Randy Ham (with a little help from Wonder Woman writer/artist Phil Jimenez) chat about the current Wonder Woman and what makes her different than the Wonder Woman we’ve all come to know and love.
—-
SAVAS: Hey Randy, a lot of folks HATE the new WW–I think she’s pretty badass, what’s the deal?
RANDY: Make yourself a drink, have a seat. This could take a while.
I was 8 years old when I got my first Wonder Woman comic. As a little boy in West Texas, comics were a way of escaping from the flat, drab, dusty plains of my home. I read New Teen Titans, Green Lantern, Batman, you name it. They were all fun reads, but none of them Spoke To Me like Wonder Woman.
Wonder Woman taught me that you could be strong, powerful and compassionate. Everything about her background had prepared her for her mission in man’s world: Daughter of the Queen of the Amazons, sculpted from clay on the shores of Paradise Island, and imbued with life by the goddesses of the Greek pantheon, raised by the entire race of Amazons. Wonder Woman had a unique perspective on the feminine, as it was the only thing she’s ever known. I learned that I could like things that were considered ‘feminine’ and not be ashamed of it. I also realized 2 very important things early on: I would never be Wonder Woman, and I could never really ‘relate’ to her. That was ok by me. I didn’t need to be Wonder Woman, I just used her example to be a better person.
In 1986, when she was re-imagined by George Perez, the foundation of the character, her uniqueness among the plethora of superheroes, was strengthened by heightening the femininity of her origin. I was elated.
As her adventures continued, and various writers took over the title, I saw that even if I didn’t like a specific writer or story, the basis of her mission, and her motivation never wavered.
In 2005, I started to notice a troubling trend. There was a thread running through the big DC crossovers (and some other titles Wonder Woman appeared in) that she had ‘lost touch’ with humanity. Say What? She used to work at Taco Whiz for Chrissakes! You wanna stay in touch with ‘humanity?’ Work in fast food. Trust me. I know.
Soon after that, DC launched the New 52. Brian Azzarello rewrote Wonder Woman completely. No longer was she the product of a mother’s yearning for a child and the generosity of her patron goddesses, Wonder Woman is now the child produced by the union of Hippolyte and Zeus, king of the gods. In other words, she’s another Demi-God bastard of Zeus. If that were not enough, the Amazons are now a brutish race of women who copulate every 10 years with unsuspecting sailors, who are then killed. The female children are raised as Amazons, while the males are exchanged with Hephaestus for weapons.
In short, Azzarello diminished her, making her no longer special. With nothing to differentiate her, she became just another superhero.
Now, I am all for DC wanting to make a buck off of her comic. That’s the name of the game, after all. But in making her just like every other hero in the DCU, they have robbed her ability to inspire and enlighten. This iteration of the character is hardly likely to find its way into the hands of an 8 year old boy in rural Texas. Even if it did, this Wonder Woman is not here to elicit feelings of joy, nobility, and courage. This is a Wonder Woman who serves up BadAss-ery. She takes no prisoners. She serves as arm candy for Superman. What is noble about her actions? What does she do to inspire women (and men)? I am left to Wonder, who is this Woman?
—
SAVAS: BUT, can’t you see the potential for there to be a learning curve here? I mean, who’s to say that this iteration of the character doesn’t eventually achieve the enlightenment that you desire?
RANDY: Ah, there’s the old ‘Let’s Tear Her Down So We Can Build Her Back Up,’ Trope. We have seen Wonder Woman’s journey toward enlightenment before. What is different here is that the foundation of the character is altered. She’s been re-built to become ‘more relatable.’ It’s a trend in the DCU now, and a troubling one. Wonder Woman shouldn’t have to be relatable by being from a broken home. She is someone to aspire to.
Case in point: I was asked to help put together a reading list of Wonder Woman comics for an all-girls non-profit summer reading club. These girls are ages 10-16. The director and I made a conscious decision NOT to include anything from this re-launch. Not only could it confuse the girls, but neither of us was comfortable putting this iteration of the character up as a role model for young women (or young men for that matter).
To be honest, between the fact that Azarello completely re-wrote her origin, and the fact that his ‘re-imagined’ Greek pantheon (Rucka did that better, in my opinion) and guest stars such as Orion from the New Gods take up such prime real estate in her book, it feels like Wonder Woman was shoe-horned into a story already thought out. I imagine Azzarello and (Dan) Didio (co-publisher of DC Comics), talking it up over dinner.
Azzarello: Dan, I have this great idea for a new DC series, maybe a Vertigo title. It has to do with the greek gods, but, modern and creepy. We could even throw in the Kirby New Gods just for fun.
Didio: That’s excellent. You know, I think Wonder Woman has Greek Gods in her book or something. I’m not sure. Why don’t you just take over Wonder Woman and use it to tell your story.
Azzarello: Well, to be honest, I can’t really ‘relate’ to someone sculpted out of clay. It’s so unrealistic.
Didio: What if I told you to re-write her origin while you were at it? I mean, I can’t relate to it either. It’s not ‘real’ like a lone survivor from an alien world, or an orphan dressing up like a bat to fight crime.
Azzarello: Hell yeah! I mean, no one ever wrote Wonder Woman correctly anyway…
Didio: Now we’re talking!
It doesn’t help that in the interviews Azzarello gave as the book launched he basically trashed the other writers and artists who had come before him. That’s the double edged sword of the comic world these days. Before the internet, I didn’t read many interviews with creators, and didn’t know a lot of what went on behind the scenes. I just judged the book on its own merits. This is not the first time that a writer or artist has turned me off in such a way that I have dropped a book. I do think this time it’s different. I still would have dropped the title after issue #3, regardless of Azzarello’s comments. He just made it easier.
—
SAVAS: BUT–circa 1972, Jack Kirby took over Jimmy Olsen to introduce the 4th World, which would bother fans at the time.
RANDY: Jimmy Olsen is not Wonder Woman. It’s a whole different beast to take over an established third tier character (at best) and using his book to launch something else. It’s entirely different to hijack one of the DCU Trinity and make her a guest star in her own book. Also, Azzarello has barely established this new book and he’s already using it as a launching pad for a new cast of characters.
—
SAVAS: What about Morrison’s Earth One version?
RANDY: I am super excited about G Mo’s Earth One. Judging from interviews (SEE???!!) I think he’s on the right track with this story.
‘She’s very different, and I’m really focusing a lot more on the mother and daughter story in it between Hippolyta and Diana. I want it to be that kind of book, a story about women. I grew up with my own mother and sister in the house, and it was watching that and the way women can tear each other apart and lift each other up at the same time. I wanted to do a little bit of my own experience with those characters.
Diana’s a lot more defiant in it and she’s not sent to man’s world — she runs away to it so there’s a very different dynamic between her and Hippolyta, and the entire thing basically takes place around a trial.
I always felt one of the fundamentals of Wonder Woman in at least the last two decades is that she always seems to be on trial, and I don’t mean that in a story sense. Everyone’s always saying, “Why does nobody buy Wonder Woman? Why isn’t she any good?” (Laughs) it seems like she’s always on trial, so I thought if I literalized that and made the story basically the Amazons bringing her back home after her first adventure away and putting her on trial, it’d be different from anything else you might see. The Amazons have their own ways of doing things.
It’s kind of asking Wonder Woman to justify herself, which I feel has almost been what the character’s had to do for a long time.’ (From USA Today interview with Grant Morrison 7/28/13)
—
SAVAS: I still think that every generation gets a version of their hero. Let me put it this way: For me there are three definitive Wonder Women:
The 70s TV series
Roy Thomas’ All-Star Squadron/Infinity Inc. Golden Age Version
George Perez’s Reboot
I don’t see why this iteration is so different.
RANDY: This is where you lose me Savas. This is not a version of Wonder Woman, this is a completely different character running around in star spangled shorts. On the 70’s TV show, you would not have heard Lynda Carter say any dialogue that implied she didn’t have many enemies because she killed them. Roy Thomas would not have written anything resembling Diana using her lasso as a weapon, choking opponents. George Perez’s Wonder Woman did not relish violence. This character is so far removed from the ideals and principles Wonder Woman has symbolized for 70+ years.
The other question you have to ask yourself is: What kind of Wonder Woman do we want this generation to have?
—
SAVAS: It jumped right into the action, she’s been made out to be the most powerful being in the DCU.
RANDY: I think from 1986 on Wonder Woman was one of the most powerful beings in the DCU, and was written to portray that with grace, courage, dignity and above all, compassion. She had enormous powers, but she didn’t relish using them. She was the Goddess of Truth, after all.
PHIL: (quoting SAVAS) ‘It jumped right into the action; she’s been made out to be the most powerful being in the DCU.’
It would also help if I knew what you meant by “badass” in that nearly every big hero has entered “badass” territory. What makes this Wonder Woman “badass” as it were? What does that even mean? How were other versions not badass in relation to this one?
So the book jumped right into action (as any comic book probably should); and she’s powerful. Is it power that makes Wonder Woman badass? I ask because, in all seriousness, I’m curious what fans value in their characters — esp. in Wonder Woman. For many nu52 Wonder Woman fans, I still l can’t figure out what they *like* about her — except she’s a bitch on wheels who kills her foes instead of reforming them. In real world terms, what does that say about readers or the characters? Why is that a valued, likable attribute? What is so appealing about that approach?
Mind you, the WW of JLA and the WW of her own title are markedly different beasts.
Further, Wonder Woman has always been one of the most powerful beings in the DCU, physically speaking. Pre and post-Crisis.
I actually love the Wonder Woman of Earth-2, the GA version, whose powers were a direct result of Amazon Training. She was the most powerful (before Marston augmented her to compete with Superman) not because of godly intervention but because she WORKED THE HARDEST for them. And she didn’t mind using them; indeed, she loved the CHALLENGE of using them. This was a core tenant of her character: she loved a good challenge. For her, it was, in some ways, all about that — a game. If there’s no challenge in it, then where’s the fun?
As blasphemous as it might be to say, I think Perez jettisoning Amazon Training, as well as the more technologically advanced Amazons, was one of the biggest missteps of the reboot.
RANDY: Here’s the deal: The readers who are on board with the current run are what I (unfairly) refer to as Bat Readers. Bat Readers (and yes, I think you are one of them, Savas), read a lot of different titles, and are SUPER immersive in the mythology and narrative of the entire DCU. To them, Wonder Woman is just another title to read on New Comic Wednesday. Speaking for myself and a select group of my friends, Wonder Woman is more than just another title. She’s an inspiration. We recognize her as the cultural and historical icon and influence she is. For better or worse, we feel protective of her, especially when we think her current steward is doing her and her readers a disservice. The conventional wisdom is that you can either have a Wonder Woman who is ‘badass,’ or you can have a compassionate, courageous hero, who can be an inspiration, but you can’t have both. I respectfully disagree. Wonder Woman can be that one hero who bridges the gap, and who helps us all become Good Men (and Women).
Wonder woman is a magnet for the worst writers in comics. We had 1 great writer. Perez. After he left a series of 3rd raters. From Byrne to Simone, most of them sucked.
My two biggest problems with Brian Azzarello’s WONDER WOMAN is his ham-handed, vulgar reworking of Wondy’s origin AND his turning the immortal Amazons into some clichéd, post-Apocalyptic tribe of man-hating sociopaths. Turning Queen Hippolyta, the fictional mother of a feminist icon, into some sexually deviant want-on, who gets off on bedding down any man, who can physically overpower her – well, it’s disrespectful of WW’s history and a little sick. Basically, Azzarello’s revising of Wonder Woman’s origin goes something like this: Hippolyta and Zeus FOUGHT, ..and Hippolyta and Zeus [Rhymes with ‘CLUCKED’], ..and that’s how we got Wonder Woman! No… Read more »
slvn – i suspect that any current writer under the employ of a comic publishing company would have a really tough time writing a character as just plain good all the time. angst and drAma [hahaha, yes, that is a capital/hard ‘A’!] are requirements to meet current marketing belief. that said, i’ll bet that if a publisher were to work up the nerve to do something DIFFERENT for a change, they would have a huge success on their hands. with the current state of the world, people have more than enough of those negative things in their everyday life; think… Read more »
I certainly don’t blame you for not reading what you don’t like; I don’t either. I do want to say, while I have a chance, that what touches me deeply about your grandfather’s comics is the way Wonder Woman combines strength with love, and the way her love touches and opens hearts. One of my favorite issues, and one of the most important things I read as a kid, is #3, in which she helps Paula reform. I hope you won’t mind that I, personally, see this legacy reflected and honored in the way this Wonder Woman touches the hearts… Read more »
slvn – you are entirely correct; i did NOT read past the first few. didn’t like it and had no reason to continue. i’ve read bits and pieces since, but…nope, still not ww to me. again, i can see why readers like the story, but it should have been its own comic, not done under the ww name. and…going back to anthony’s comment that amused me – i don’t have to eat the entire chocolate cake to know that it ain’t strawberry pie! as an aside: i’m still a major fan of the comics as they were back in the… Read more »
Having made a few critical comments, let me just add that I admire Jiminez’ work, appreciate his and Randy’s and Savas’ willingness to share their feelings, and truly respect thier genuine passion for Wonder Woman.
Good post, Becca.
So, Randy hasn’t read the book for 2 years now, and Phil has said on Facebook that the changes to Diana’s origin have left such a bad taste in his mouth, he can’t even embrace what’s good about it.
Can we get an opinion on the actual book not based on an ideological bias or ignorance?
I’m really disappointed in this article. I can completely understand being uncomfortable with elements of the origin change, and I absolutely share a deep sense of disappointment and rageful betrayal with regards to what happened to the Amazons in #7 – that’s a misstep I think I will always be mad about. However, if we’re talking about Diana’s characterisation in Azzarello’s book, I just cannot reconcile what’s said here with the way she’s actually portrayed. I guess I’d go so far as to say I find it disingenuous for someone to write with such authority on the failures of the… Read more »
Ugh, as always, after I hit post, I realise I needed to edit something. Essentially I intended to add that in addition to not really being a Batman fan, I do not fit the category of “Bat Reader” as defined in the article either in that Wonder Woman is my absolute favourite superhero and basically the main reason I got into Superhero comics. I absolutely adore her. So let’s try not to “No True Scotsman” each other, okay?
It’s a little bit hard to disagree with a Marston about Wonder Woman. Christie, I respect your views, but I’m curious whether you’re still reading Azzarello’s run. If you’ve read beyond issue 7 or so, don’t Wonder Woman’s compassionate, merciful words and actions–some of which I listed above–reflect the core values of the character and of previous runs of the book (even if other aspects of the run don’t, in your opinion)? I’m also curious how much of the run Randy, Phil and Savas have read. Just about all of their examples from that book seem to come from issues… Read more »
slvn,
As I pointed out in the article, I dropped the book after issue #3 (which was incredibly difficult to do. I had been reading Wonder Woman non-stop since I was 8 years old). To me, the origin change was just too much, and no matter what came after it, the foundations of the character had been altered to the point where she was unrecognizable as Wonder Woman.
Thanks, Randy. I did see that you dropped it after issue 3, but I didn’t want to assume that you hadn’t read more issues in preparation for this conversation/article. It seemed unlikely to me that someone who had read less than one-seventh of a book would offer a public opinion about that work. I stand corrected. I respect your view about the origin, though personally I think it’s better to judge fictional characters, like real people, by their actions rather than their ancestry. And I agree with you about one thing: your characterization of the book’s fans is, as you… Read more »
I know you didnt bring up the cherry picking accusation made against the folks who find the current title an unreadable tale thats WW in name only, but when you list the examples of compassion and mercy to support your belief that it *really* is the same character, that’s what you’re doing, cherry picking! . There are FAR, FAR more examples of an non-traditional Wonder Woman characterization through every issue that are basically in opposition of what woukd appear as a checklist for what makes this character what it is. And that non-traditional remake is Azzerllo only. When I see… Read more »
Anthony, if you look again at my messages, I told Phil, answering his question, that I like this Wonder Woman because she’s still fighting hate with love, and I listing examples of her doing so. I didn’t say that she hasn’t changed in other ways. And I asked Christie if those specific examples showed Wonder Woman acting like her classic self, even if there were other aspects of the run don’t reflect how Wonder Woman has been in the past. So no, that’s not cherry-picking In my view, there are examples of Wonder Woman showing compassion, kindness or mercy in… Read more »
I dont want to be mean or get personal but no I cant prove your wrong because sincerely and with love and respect I beleive you’re either trolling or are delusional to espouse the points of view abovr.
Anthony, I don’t mind. But I do have to point out how funny it is to say ” with love and respect I believe you’re either trolling or are delusional.” As far as I’m aware, we don’t know each other, and you have no special reason to address me with love or respect, but there’s not much point in saying that you’re doing so if you’re going to call be trolling or delusional. It’s a bit like Randy saying he knows a label is unfair and then applying it anyway. Why try to have it both ways? I do respect… Read more »
“As far as I’m aware, we don’t know each other, and you have no special reason to address me with love or respect”
This statement on its own is enough for me to decide that you really don’t have much of a connection to the character. Default respect and love for all is so fundamental to WW. So if you don’t get this, there’s longer a mystery for me why you would defend the current incarnation… You don’t have enough information for a historical basis for comparison…
And yet, Anthony, I did address you with “default respect,” and acknowledge the validity of your views, in my previous post, whereas you called me names. And I discussed specific facts from the run, while you discussed what you perceived to be my shortcomings. Saying “with love and respect” isn’t the same as showing it.
I would like to add Azzarello never trashed any previous writer, he simply said he wasn’t reading any. Although I do recall he did tweet Christie Marston that he admired Marston’s original character very much. If people would get their heads out of their butts they’d see Marston’s Diana is a clear inspiration for his.
I completely agree with Slvn. There’s just so much cherry-picking of evidence that the end result is meaningless. Just look at slvn’s list to see what is still inspiring about Diana today– a more inspiring figure than past interpretations, including Simone’s and Jimenez’. She’s an unrepentant killer who takes no prisoners? Who has she killed? A centaur– funny, she has the same body count as George Perez, but no one seems to notice. Funny how no one mentions it was George Perez who took away her longstanding vow to never take life, but oh, that’s okay for him. And shame… Read more »
I’ve been a die-hard Wonder Woman fan for over twenty years and have loved the Amazing Amazon through many of her various incarnations. Don’t forget, this is not the first time Wonder Woman or the Amazons’ origins have been mucked with, and it’s not likely the last. The ’40s, the ’60s, ’70s, the ’80s, and now have all shown different takes on Wonder Woman and her cast. Though I’m certainly not defending the current incarnation of our beloved heroine. I hate that Diana’s unique origin has been erased and that the Amazons are mythological black widows. I get it, it… Read more »
UGH I HAD A 2 page write up here and then the page refreshed ugh!!! I HAD SO MANY GOOD POINTS!
Let’s just say it simply: Azzarello sucks as a story teller on this book.
Done. Period. Move on. Bring back Phil or Gail or Greg or even freaking JOHN BYRNE whom I can’t stand. He’d be 100x better than this moron who is writing this schlock.
I disagree, I think Azzarello has done a good job of telling good stories that show our heroine coming out on top, despite her world being completely turned around. That’s not to say I agree with several of his story devices that he’s used while writing, “Wonder Woman”, her new origin in particular.
Excellent conversation! WW, to me, is the original WW as written by WMM. She has gone thru many variations over the years, but managed to maintain [or return to] the core of her values until recent years. As currently presented, she is an entirely different character using [slurring…] WW’s name. She has no real function in life. WW should be a role model, not just one more common bit player in some other tale. Azzerello has written a story which entertains his readers, but it is not a WW story. good analogy, Anthony; “Liking Azzarello’s Wonder Woman is akin to… Read more »
Its folks who continue to insist that they are eating chocolate cake despite the strawberries and the pie shell that bother me most. To continue the analogy, WW was a unique menu item. Nothing else like it anywhere, period. First they take the ONLY thing I ever want off the menu, then they want to play games with my head and insist its still there! “It justs tastes totally different, Anthony. Otherwise its exactly the same!”
I want to apologize to Phil for saying that he should have distinguished between the portrayls of Wonder Woman in her own title and in JL; I missed the “markedly different beasts line.” I do wish the guys had talked more about Azzarellos version, though, other than the origin. And I still think “bitch on wheels” is inappropriate.
” except she’s a bitch on wheels who kills her foes instead of reforming them. In real world terms, what does that say about readers or the characters? Why is that a valued, likable attribute? What is so appealing about that approach?” It’s pretty simple; in Azzarello’s book, she’s still fighting hate with love. Gad you asked. In the last year or so, she has proven that by doing the following: *risked getting stuck in hell to save a friend (8-10) *modeled female empowerment by throwing off Hades’ leash of “love” and refusing a bond without trust; *after Hades tries… Read more »
Yes, Hades, Milan, Siracca, Hera, and Orion — all conquered with love.
One last thought. Wonder Woman is currently selling worse than it did before this relaunch. The early curious folks have moved on, as have many, many of her long term fans. Given this, I just dont get why this run has any defenders left! To hammer the point home and help someone who doesnt relate to the character the way Randy describes think of it this way: Imagine you’re a fan of the “Star Trek” franchise. You’ve watched every episode of every series. You went to all of the Shatner and Patrick Stewart movies. Yku have always been inspired by… Read more »
Another important, I think, detail that Azerrello changed is that previously the Amazons were a mostly tight knit community. Sisterly love above all else, etc.. In his interpretation, they were shown cruelly taunting Wonder Woman with the nickname “clay” in reference to how they believed she had been born. As Randy said, this little gay boy in Philly was both inspired and comforted by Wonder Woman and her community. The acceptance and love they showed each other was way better than (and gave me hope things for me would improve) my then current experience of being called “faggot” everyday at… Read more »
To David’s comment about different wrapper and Savas’ assertion that this is just a variant on the same character, I will reuse the analogy I always use: Liking Azzarello’s Wonder Woman is akin to eating a slice of chocolate cake and pronouncing it the best strawberry pie you’ve ever tasted…
Wonder Woman was a character in comics whose stories set examples for people (me, specifically). She trained to be the best Amazon on Paradise Island (later named Themyscira in the comics) and excelled through tests of physical and emotional endurance. She strove to be the best she could be. Later, in Perez’ reboot, she was given extraordinary gifts from the gods, but she still needed to learn how to use her gifts over time. In both iterations, she grew up with love, compassion, wisdom, sisterhood, and a mother’s love—Hippolyte (thank you, Randy, for using that spelling, by the way) formed… Read more »