Thomas Fiffer goes looking for consent videos and finds an ugly attack on consent and equality.
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So I was looking for a video on consent to run here on The Good Men Project, and I came across Laci Green’s Wanna Have Sex? (Consent 101). I’ve seen some of Laci’s videos before, and I understand she’s out there about a lot of stuff, particularly a lot of stuff that a lot of people don’t talk about. I mean, her sidebar on YouTube lists Vagina Hacks, Transgender Adventure, and Oral Report. But her rant on consent is dead-on. She starts out by saying she finds it sexy when a man asks if he wants to kiss her, because it means he respects her. And then she explains, in her unique style, the rules.
But consent isn’t just hot. It’s also mandatory. Sexual contact without consent is assault or rape.
Sounds pretty straightforward, right? Laci goes through a bunch of different scenarios and clearly explains what is and isn’t consensual. For example:
Sex is never something that’s owed to someone. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been flirting, if you hooked up before, if he bought you dinner, not even if you’re naked! Pushing someone until they finally give in is not consent, because you’re basically not giving the option to say no.
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I suppose if you’re intent on forcing your will on someone, having to ask is a pretty big downer.
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I know people like Rush Limbaugh disagree and make the argument that obtaining consent takes all the spontaneity, excitement, and romance out of sex. I suppose if you’re intent on forcing your will on someone, having to ask is a pretty big downer, but for most people, knowing your advances are welcome, knowing that your touch is wanted, knowing that entry is affirmatively allowed is a pretty good feeling—a lot better than guessing and guessing wrong, and vastly preferable to ending up with charges pressed against you.
One of my standard procedures before I put a video up on The Good Men Project is to Google the name of the video and the speaker along with “good men project” to see if anyone has published it before. When I did that today, a hit came up for “Laci Green’s Consent 101 – Redefining Rape.” It wasn’t something The Good Men Project had run, but I clicked on it, curious to see what it was. I found a twisted rant by one Christopher Cantwell that begins:
No means no, and according to Laci Green, so does “Okay”, and being a YouTube fan, and pretty much everything other than a signed and notarized contract, with three witnesses, which of course can be revoked at any time. If this is what people like Laci think constitutes consent to sex, then no wonder they’re freaking out about some imaginary rape culture. The video, titled “WANNA HAVE SEX? (CONSENT 101)” (embedded below) starts off suggesting that men should ask permission to kiss a woman, and that failing to do so, is sexual assault.
I’m publishing some excerpts from Cantwell’s vitriolic blog post so people will know when we advocate for consent exactly what we’re up against.
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I’m not bringing this up to change Cantwell’s mind or his views about consent. I’m aware that’s not going to happen. Nor am I encouraging anyone to vent at him, which won’t make anyone safer. I’m publishing some excerpts from Cantwell’s vitriolic blog post so people will know when we advocate for consent exactly what we’re up against. He calls rape culture “imaginary,” but folks, he’s real.
Asking a woman if you can kiss her, is generally a sure fire way to make sure that you never do. If this became the general standard of conduct for mating rituals, the human race would cease to exist within a hundred years, and that’s before we take into account the fact that she’s suggesting it’s a crime punishable by imprisonment to kiss without asking.
To support his denunciation of Laci Green, he cites advice from sources ranging from E-Harmony (whose use of the word “wuss” is beyond disturbing), to Cosmo, to a blog called Dating Keys, where he finds this gem from “How to Get a Kiss from a Girl”:
You should NEVER have to ask a woman for your first kiss. (Only WIMPS ask for a first kiss, and you should know by now that women are NOT attracted to wimps!) You should “test the waters” by using the following technique instead: Flirt heavily with her and get some good connection when you’re over at her house. Then when the moment is right, I want you to look into her eyes…and stroke her hair. Tell her her hair smells good. Look into her eyes again and see how she reacts. (Feedback is IMPORTANT) She’s got those dreamy eyes? Lift her chin up with a finger and tell her, your eyes are beautiful and gaze deeply into them. She still responding well? Great. Lean down SLOWLY towards her lips. (If she doesn’t pull away then she WANTS the kiss). Kiss her lightly on her lips.
He goes on to argue that if someone is too drunk to drive but capable of buying something in a store, that the person is in control enough to give consent. And he adds this passage, which he came up with all by himself:
If I go out drinking with a woman, and she asks me for sex, she’s probably going to get it and that doesn’t make me a rapist. Drunk sex is fun, people engage in it all the time and they almost never cry rape afterwards. By Laci Green’s standard, upwards of 25% of the population are rape babies (I’m making that statistic up, but you can bet a lot of our parents were drunk when mom got pregnant).
He even makes up a ridiculous scenario to counter Green’s point that “Just because somebody doesn’t say no doesn’t mean they’re saying yes. They might feel uncomfortable or guilty or not know how to say it.”
Guy: Can I kiss you?
Girl: Yes, you may
(Kiss)
Guy: That was nice, can I touch your left boob?
Girl: Yes, you may
(Guy touches right boob)
Girl: RAPIST!
Cue the police sirens and sound of a prison gate closing.
He doesn’t like consent because it makes it harder for drunk pigs who just want some pussy to get laid, and makes it likely that some of those drunk pigs might end up suspended from school or in jail.
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The bottom line for Cantwell seems to be that it doesn’t matter if the consent laws and campus regulations are designed to protect both women and men from unwanted sex, aka sexual assault and rape. He doesn’t like consent because it makes it harder for drunk pigs who just want some pussy to get laid, and makes it likely that some of those drunk pigs might end up suspended from school or in jail.
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Look, consent can be complicated. But what Laci Green is doing—trying to lay it out in terms men and women can understand, explaining the nuances, and shining light on the shadowy uncertainties—is a public service. What Christopher Cantwell is doing—framing the issue in black and white, characterizing it as an attack on men, and making you either a man (if you take what you want) or a wuss (if you play by the rules) is a public disgrace. He takes the issue to its extremes and invents absurd examples, rather than simply saying, if you’re a responsible, respectful individual, this is not something you are going to have to worry about. Cantwell claims to be a libertarian, which I understand to be a philosophy and politics of personal responsibility, individual rights, and free will. He pretends to take issue with “forcing” men to obtain consent for sex as a violation of personal liberty. But he is really attacking a woman’s right to exercise her free will and say no.
Photo—lacigreen/YouTube
@Erin, thank you. You have articulated this issue so well and have, unfortunately, seen firsthand how much progress still needs to be made in men’s minds and attitudes. Women have a right to reclaim their bodies and their sexual agency. As men we have a moral obligation to give that back to them. It was never ours to own in the first place. Gaining consent is not hard. It is not overly byzantine and does not ruin any spontaneity. I think we tend to reduce what Laci Green and Erin are saying into a bunch of arbitrary rules so that… Read more »
@Erin
You are a godsend. Thank you. Where can I connect with you to follow more of what you write? Please tell me you have a blog!
Wow, thank you for such a lovely compliment Shanna. I’m sorry, I don’t have a blog and I am not on social media – except Facebook – which I visit maybe once a year. I’m not very pro-active with social media. Although maybe I should be.
“may I point to the large list of female celebrities that have had their intimate pictures stolen and how many people choose to look at them even though they know these ladies didn’t consent to it. ” Here you have a point. But its loose and debatable to the topic. Which is consent to sex. Being a pervert nay, lets make the person a full on crook, a peeping tom might be bad, and in the case of a peeping tom (someone looking at you through your bedroom window) get you a fine or a jail sentence. But it is… Read more »
Josh, in every response you write in every topic, YOUR feelings and emotions are always in them. That’s true for everyone. Feelings are completely legimate. No human beings operates from “facts” only. You want people to care about what you think AND feel? Then you should darn well care about what others think and feel. Other then that, whether an individual women consents to make a porn movie, the majority of the porn industry is made to cater to men. The fact that one singular woman consents to a porn movie does not take away the lost control of how… Read more »
I think what we have here is that some women are trying to take back ownership of their bodies in a world that considers our bodies a free for all. And if you doubt that the world doesn’t consider women’s bodies a free-for-all, may I point to the large list of female celebrities that have had their intimate pictures stolen and how many people choose to look at them even though they know these ladies didn’t consent to it. May I also point to modern pornography which also sends the message that every woman’s body is yours for the taking… Read more »
@ Erin “And if you doubt that the world doesn’t consider women’s bodies a free-for-all, may I point to the large list of female celebrities that have had their intimate pictures stolen and how many people choose to look at them even though they know these ladies didn’t consent to it.” May I point out that it wasn’t just female celebrities who got their pictures stolen, Justin Verlander was in some of those as were other men who were not famous. Society was only concerned about the women so what does that say about women’s bodies and men’s? When society… Read more »
John, I’m just trying to explain why some women are trying to reclaim ownership of their bodies and how that plays into the topic of consent. Circumcision or other issues men face should not be reason enough alone to fight against trying to understand the unique world women find themselves in when it comes to how society treats our bodies. And men and women sometimes DO experience the world differently. It should be a topic that is able to stand on it’s own without including “but, but, but this is what happens to men!” You are effectively shutting down a… Read more »
@ Erin “You are effectively shutting down a conversation around the women, society and their bodies for the fact that men also have issues in society ” I disagree. Women’s bodies are not a free for all in society. Women’s bodies are considered valuable and must be bought and paid for. Yes, sometimes women are forced into the “sex trades”, but it’s illegal and more over government actually tries to help these women and punish the perpetrators. I’m not even convinced that women would consume less pornography than men or would objectify men less. I’m certain that they are more… Read more »
I’m kind of shocked that you think women’s bodies are considered “valuable” and placed on a pedestal. The fact that certain men are willing to pay for women’s bodies is not what makes them valuable or not valuable for that matter. And if you think it does, then something is seriously wrong in how you are qualifying the value of a woman and her body in comparison to what someone is “willing” to pay for. With all sincerity, do you think you know women’s bodies and how women relate to the world with regard to their bodies better then women… Read more »
Yeah, all of that is important but keep in mind that it’s possible for all that to occur AND still be placed on a pedestal above men. I kinda agree that women’s bodies are valued far above men’s, there’s far far far more done for violence and especially sexual violence against women than against men.
This affirmative enthusiastic consent idea is a solution in search of a problem.
Silly article. Further creates more confusion and problems.
“What Christopher Cantwell is doing—framing the issue in black and white, -” Isn’t that what Laci Green is also doing. You either get explicit consent for each and every action or you’re a rapist. Can’t get any more black and white than that. She also seems to want to hedge her bets. “But consent isn’t just hot. It’s also mandatory. Sexual contact without consent is assault or rape.” Noticed how it’s limited to “Sexual contact without consent” and I’m pretty sure that the person who gets to decide whether the contact is sexual is a woman. Recently, I came across… Read more »
I suggest reading The Manipulated Man by Esther Vilar and Men On Strike by Helen Smith for more on this.
Good point about unwanted touching. Women just stop doing this. It really pisses me off. There is not a lot men can do about this without being accused of whining. And men shouldn’t be doing it at all. The question of what is sexual or not is a good one. I once gave a foot massage to a woman (She asked for it.). I didn’t think it was sexual. Her husband thought it was. I don’t know what she thought about it. He threatened to throw me off of a building (a la Pulp Fiction). I think he was kidding.… Read more »
Here’s the deal: Asking for a kiss shouldn’t be necessary. If you can’t read the person well enough to know whether or not you should kiss them, then you shouldn’t kiss them. This is where the problem lies with drinking. Your perception is skewed and you are unable to pick up on subtle cues. In my opinion, if alcohol is involved, sex should be avoided. THIS should be communicated with your date. “I can’t foresee where this evening will lead but I will tell you this: If we are drunk, sex is off the table.”
Technically, under the yes means yes laws, doesn’t it pretty much make probably the majority of intimacy and sexuality…rape? If you have to ask EVERY time, for EACH stage, how many people really do that? He does have some points though. Consent with alcohol is a very tricky issue, especially for those whom blackout but appear lucid (as commenters on this site I believe in an older article discussed). I ask every step of the way because I wanna make 100% sure consent is there, but to do that EVERY TIME is bloody annoying. As one person above says, do… Read more »
Or wait and let her ask for consent.
All famous actors and famous YouTubers that have ever had sex with one of their fans are rapists because their fame makes their partners completely unable to give consent.
Okay, got it. Thanks Laci!
Ridiculous.
I’ve had more sexual partners than most men in western countries. Not once has my consent been sought by any of those women. Never, ever.
It may be easy to dismiss the objections that people like Rush Limbaugh and Chris Cantwell make to the ‘Antioch’ model of verbal consent. Freddie deBoer just posted a much more thoughtful challenge to this approach that I think is a bit harder to dismiss out of hand.
And where do you stop? It’s common knowledge that prior consent doesn’t automatically permit further consent. If you need ask a woman to kiss her, how is that going to go when making out? Can I kiss you? Can I kiss you again? Can I kiss you again? Can I kiss you again? Can I kiss you again? Can I kiss you 15 more times or as many times as possible within a 2 minute window, I’m running out of breath? What does need consent? Can I put my hand on her arm? Or do I need to ask and… Read more »