Dudes, Just STOP.
—
So, listen to me, guys.
And I mean, really listen. Not in that way where you hear what I’m saying but ignore it. Just, listen. You’re not going to like what I have to say. And honestly, most of you reading this are not the problem. But some of you, many of you, in fact, have the potential to slip and be a part of that problem.
We have absolutely no right, as men, to “convince” women to do anything.
Do I have to say it again? Or is that once enough. I would think it’d be enough, but some of the cheap seats are having some trouble with this. So, let me break it down for you.
♦◊♦
If a woman says no, stop, you’re making me uncomfortable, or anything else along those lines—IMMEDIATELY do it.
Why is there a question?
What you’re really hoping for, as you continue to find different ways to contact that woman who blocked you on twitter, as you tell that woman who wants to use barriers for oral sex that she doesn’t know what she’s missing, as you ignore when a woman says you’re making her feel unsafe, is for her to concede.
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Why would there ever be a question?
The fact that there IS a question in some of your minds, or the thought that maybe if you just point out why she’s wrong about her impression of you, or that she just misunderstood, or that she’ll be missing out on something awesome if she doesn’t give you a chance–that fact? That’s absolutely appalling.
And you’re wrong. 100%. Without question or caveat. You’re wrong. You’re in the wrong. You’re doing it wrong. No amount of convincing or hearing you out or playing devil’s advocate is going to change that. Your wrongness is a quagmire, and you’re just hunkering down deeper and deeper.
♦◊♦
Let’s be honest.
What you’re really hoping for, as you continue to find different ways to contact that woman who blocked you on twitter, as you tell that woman who wants to use barriers for oral sex that she doesn’t know what she’s missing, as you ignore when a woman says you’re making her feel unsafe, is for her to concede. To concede to you. To let you win. To vindicate what you think is right.
Feminists don’t hate men, they hate how they’re made to feel by men. They hate that they can’t end a conversation until the man they’re talking to decides it’s over, because if they try to he’ll just keep talking…or anything to make his point because it doesn’t matter that they don’t want to talk to him, does it? He has a point to make.
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Because what you think is right, is you.
Because you’re a nice guy, right? She didn’t understand you. She didn’t give you a chance.
Fuck you.
Yeah. Fuck you.
Feminists don’t hate men, they hate how they’re made to feel by men. They hate that they can’t end a conversation until the man they’re talking to decides it’s over, because if they try to he’ll just keep talking, if they block his messages he’ll start emailing, or DMing, or anything to make his point because it doesn’t matter that they don’t want to talk to him, does it? He has a point to make.
What gives you the fucking right? You are making us all look bad.
♦◊♦
Rape Culture IS our culture. Because the same thing that makes a man feel it’s okay to violate bodily makes him feel it’s okay to suggest that the woman who just said “No, thank you” to him should give him a chance ‘cuz he’s really rather sweet…or that a woman walking down the street really needs to hear his thoughts on her body.
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So many men thoroughly bristle at the term Rape Culture, arguing that they’re not rapists and would never rape someone. But they don’t understand that this is a permeation of our world. Rape Culture IS our culture.
Because the same thing that makes a man feel it’s okay to violate bodily makes him feel it’s okay to suggest that the woman who just said “No, thank you” to him should give him a chance ‘cuz he’s really rather sweet, makes him think that he has the right to say that a woman would be prettier if she smiled, or that a woman walking down the street really needs to hear his thoughts on her body.
It’s also the same thing that makes him feel able to turn vicious. When she rejects him, or calls him on it. When she asserts herself and challenges him. When she shows him anything but deference or fear. That’s when he can hurl everything he’s got at her.
Because that’s when he’s revealed for what he is.
Not a man. But a petulant child. And not just a child, but the nastiest piece of garbage junior high shit stain who ever walked. This person who moments ago was extolling his own virtues in a way that could ALMOST, KINDA, MAYBE make you feel like there might be some good there becomes a fountain of hateful vitriol the moment the light is shined on him.
Darkness allows this to thrive.
♦◊♦
I’m trying to shine the light here, guys.
To shine it on you. Because you’ve upset the scales far too much. You’ve made the world a worse place. You’ve actually made it more difficult to be a man. But none of that even comes close to comparing to how difficult you’ve made it to be a woman.
So truly, stop.
Because if I see it, I’ll shine the light. And you can call me a “basement dwelling hipster motherfucker” if you’d like. (I say that because you weirdly have.) But I’m done watching. I’m done coddling. I’m done trying to talk you out of it. I’m done. The moment you disrespect a woman, it’s over. Women don’t owe you anything. Ever. Not sex, not love, not explanations, not consolation, not even a glance.
Next time you don’t get one of those things you may think yourself owed, do the world a favor and keep it to your fucking self.
∼∼
Cooper S. Beckett
P.S. Now I know there’ll be someone out there who wants to play devil’s advocate, or point out that men disrespect men too and women disrespect men. Just like #AllLivesMatter VS #BlackLivesMatter, you may be saying something that’s true, but you’re not saying something that’s helpful.
Don’t be the glass is 3% full guy.
—
Photo credit: Getty Images/157397034
@ DJ, (or Anthony, Archy, John Anderson, or any other man..)
Hello!
I came across this piece on Medium last evening,
http://medium.com/@mshannabrooks/why-women-smile-at-men-who-sexually-harass-us-cf4eeb90ed30#.gfz7xejkn
Let’s forget about the author’s piece…What is your raw feelings about this Medium piece?
I am not trying to “set you up” or anything of sorts. You can pass if you wish.
Hi Jules, and thank you for providing this thought-provoking link. I’ll bait… 🙂 First, I can’t deny her experience. And I can’t object to the “best practice” she has developed to handle this. But as a man who is tired, not of hearing about women being harassed, but tired of women being harassed. What am I supposed to do? As a rather scrawny 5’8″-ish guy, most men are taller then me. And even the ones at my height are usually heavier built. I would like to be an ally of women, but on occasions like this where I’ve tried to… Read more »
@ FlyingKal, Thanks for your reply… “…….what more is there that I can do?” Well, to honest, I really don’t know either FlyingKal. Ot.her than us men open our eyes and hearts to the suffering that so man women are enduring Honestly, I was unaware, this problem was so wide spread. Perhaps the number of men doing this is more widespread than I had imagined. What I cannot understand about this Medium piece is just why her boyfriend didn’t just slug the guy!! I most certainly would have done so. But, I have few years of Krav Maga training. Otherwise,… Read more »
Hi Jules,
I guess you are right.
Do you think it’s too late for a guy like me to start taking classes in some kind of martial arts at the age of 45?
I do believe if we were all sitting around a table discussing this issue, there wouldn’t be so much miscommunication. Online is text based, it can be hard to read intention and emotion. I often comment in a style of looking at issues on the big scale and I guess a curiosity to explore all potential aspects. It may come across as low empathy for instance but it’s not meant to be that way. I have a massive amount of curiosity and desire to understand humans, why people do things, why issues like these exist, and I like to explore… Read more »
I’m not sure if this comparison will work here – there are, of course, profound dissimilarities and discontinuities in this, to say the least, and I’m not trying suggest otherwise, or make light or slight or humor of anything. But using a general metaphor as grounds to explore, I’m wondering if there is something of value to be explored in this: One of the most iconic (and, arguably, one of the most effective, least contentious & least controversial) public service campaigns in modern history was in 1947, with Smokey the Bear, and the attendant slogan. According to the Ad Council, Smokey the… Read more »
Yes, Tom.
…and just a quick apology to all concerned for any part I played in it.
Not to add more division, contention or discord here- but maybe to clarify some of the fissures, without exacerbating them: I spoke recently (albeit briefly and somewhat conjecturally) with someone who’s opinion I respect greatly, and am thus highly inclined to weigh & consider it very earnestly. So, speaking in a very general or notional sense -and only for themselves- this person was of the mind that one can apologize in a collective way for something they didn’t do individually and/or didn’t condone or tacitly approve of individually. The idea that one can take or assume a share a proportion… Read more »
Wow. I just read all that, and think I understood 90% of it. Wrap that comment in a little more context, and get it posted as an article here!
Cheers!
I’m going to plagiarize it, myself!
Outstanding read.
Just a word to Anthony here. Was bullied also. I ended that with a wiffle ball bat one day when I’d had enough (one of the hard yellow one’s). Made me stronger, but far too great a challenge for a young boy to meet. We were on our own back then, and I’d had it with such things. I suddenly grew to 6’1, and was studying karate. I went the other way. Spent alot of time interjecting my “opinion” when I saw bullying from that point on, and just as an fyi, those stories of being bullied raise my temp… Read more »
@-DJ- Thank’s for saying so. In honor of “Pink Shirt” day, I will recount a quick story, the moral of which is that meeting violence with violence can and often does backfire. One day, late into high school, I’d had enough. I might have been tiny and scrawny-looking, but I was incredibly strong for my size. So when a guy, double my size, punched me in the stomach really hard, just because he could, I picked him up, and threw him headfirst into a brick wall as hard as I could. He got a concussion, and was bleeding a fair… Read more »
Odd postscript to that story: The guy in question, he shared my first name (Anthony is actually my middle name, and I like it better), and it’s a slightly uncommon name, so I always say “us *******’s need to stick together”. I dunno why, but it always strikes me as ironic that the only person I’ve ever been violent towards shares my name. It’s a weird punctuation mark, whenever I remember that incident.
BTW there’s no D in Arianna.
…and yes, Adrianna. I know that you did not write the article. It was a male. I took him to task, with equal vigor, well, more actually, in my third post. The first was Dylan, then you, then the author: Two out of three being male. Right? They did not respond, you did, the conversation continued with you.
“God forbid you unleash scary man on the guy right? Poor thing probably didn’t have a dad.” Nope. Would not be pretty. I do not address men like that with the same courtesy I do others. In fact, I have far less patience with the men then I do the women. If we were having this discussion as two males I’d have already told you to STFU and go stroke yourself to your paper girlfriend. With women, more willing to try to understand their unique issues. Not something one does when new to a site either. The people here are… Read more »
I appreciate your thoughtful responses and your apologies here, DJ. I apologize for calling you childish, and thank you for taking the time to correct that perception.
Be well,
Arianna
“You are childish because you are talking at me, not with me. You have not acknowledged a single one of my points as potentially valid, but rather you have granted me the kindness of assuming that I am probably a good girl who just needs to learn from the much wiser men here. ” Once again quoting for lack of the ability to reply directly. @Adrianna, I’ll try once more just to answered these questions. You have the wrong guy. All of my post to you were to you, and they were respectful even in disagreement. The one that you… Read more »
“@ D.J. Sorry to hear that. I understand what you mean about being a victim. I’ve had sex with women where I hadn’t consented. I’ve never been able to use the R word except for a short time when talking about an instance when I was 15 and it’s because I had never viewed it as such until a few years ago. Maybe because it had statutory in front of it, it made it less real. I’m 48. It’s a shame that men have so little support in society that it takes 30 years to even recognize it.” I’m quoting… Read more »
@ D. J. A conversation for another day, but I’m quitting the thread. It’s getting much too heated and I like the people here. I think though that we’ll eventually reach an understanding. I did with another editor here. We agreed to disagree on the abuse data. She didn’t think we had good data. When I mentioned that could be an excuse for inaction, two things happened that surprised me. She agreed and changed her position to we don’t have good data, but that shouldn’t stop us from addressing the issue while we acquire better data. That wasn’t the only… Read more »
“Nope, DJ, you’re right. A rape culture is one in which all of you men sit here proudly attacking me, slapping virtual high-fives, and NOT ONE OF YOU has told that guy he is out of line. Should we ask him about his father? Maybe for his definition of rape culture? Or should you guys just keep blaming the feminists and attacking me?” ———- Ok, so that is what put the burr under your saddle> I probably should have read up, but that insult sort of threw me. Chances are that he did not have a father. My following comment… Read more »
God forbid you unleash scary man on the guy right? Poor thing probably didn’t have a dad. Let’s just keep talking down about the girl and her silly thoughts. That’ll be better. Let’s not consider that the little girl works daily with divorcing dads to ensure they get fair and equitable custody and child support arrangements. Because that is the right thing to do and I believe in it. Let’s not look at the articles the little girl has written offering her empathy and support to men in relation to the way they are shamed for their sexuality within their… Read more »
“Thank you for coming closer to seeing what has been happening here than most.”
Implying that -DJ- is almost as enlightened as you are, and everyone else is blind. You’re a truly wonderful person.
Nope. Just a nasty old feminist apparently.
Further to that, I’m not going to be as nice as -DJ- has been. Well maybe a little. You contribute some great things to the discussions here, and admittedly I’ve only been seriously engaged in the comments here for a few weeks. But some of the things you say are toxic and abusive. I’ll give an example that has burned me the most in recent memory. In https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/insecure-girlfriend-try-these-3-things-fiff/, the guy writes a really thoughtful piece with advice that, if followed, would probably result in a lot of happier relationships. But you attack him for one sentence that’s poorly worded, taking… Read more »
I asked the author of that article for clarification. He made sweeping generalizations about the cause of all women’s insecurities being absentee fathers. Frankly, if I was a divorced father reading that article, I would be pissed. My comments on that article were requests for clarification, not accusations. And they include a defense of single fathers, most of whom, in my experience, only become better and more involved fathers after divorce, not worse, and certainly not absent. As for the question you asked me there about the distinction between reframing and gas-lighting, I unfortunately composed a detailed response a few… Read more »
@ Arianna Jeret, Hi Arianna! First, I want to say I still consider you a friend, a wonderful person, and a person whom I will continue to read and follow. Friends can and do have disagreements. Right? “I applaud anyone willing to self-reflect and change their perspective when appropriate, or to stand firm by their perspective and clarify their reasons.” This is what personal growth is really all about. But, one has to be willing to look inside without fear. Let the chips fall where they may.Now hat I have solid definition of rape culture, I will consider changing my… Read more »
@ Jules Thank you, my friend! I appreciate your words and our conversations here always. If I were back in time creating the terminology, rape culture would not have been my choice. The word “rape” is too specific and inflammatory. There is much I don’t agree with in relation to many feminist perspectives. I do understand the underlying intention of rape culture as an umbrella, and I am not sure what word choice would have been better or sufficient. Domination culture? Violation culture? Gender suffocation? I don’t know. Key words aren’t my strong suit. I do believe that the issues… Read more »
Violence culture. Our society has a lot of F’D up ideas about violence. Eg, wear this dress and you attract sleezy men. Men always want sex. Talk Shit, get hit. Don’t walk alone in the bad parts of town (for both rape and physical violence victim blaming), treating sex workers or “slutty” women like they deserve it, treating gangsters or low-class people as if they deserve violence against them, the casual slapping n punching that women do to men in public being ignored, and the violence that goes on behind the doors against both genders, the acceptance of using the… Read more »
@ Anthony, I just came back to this thread after about a day or two of absence. Wow!!! I am shocked…where did it all go wrong? Anyhow, I want to speak in defense of Arianna. I actually visited her site and watched her in a few videos. I enjoy her pieces most of the time. She is certainly NOT anti male. In fact, she has defended men in many of her writings. So, you are dead wrong in your characterization of Arianna. I have been coming to GMP for perhaps 3-4 years now. Frankly, it has been a love/hate relationship… Read more »
@Julia Byrd Thanks for that, and I have to agree. I’ve been reading everything Arianna has written too, and I’m impressed by so much of what she contributes here, on her site, and all the work she’s being doing IRL too, which I why I’m having so much trouble with some of the things she says that feel so combative, accusatory, and defensive. Maybe it’s just me, but her comments sometimes make me feel like I’ve stepped into a war zone. The exchanges with -DJ- in this thread hit me the hardest, because the way he writes reminds me of… Read more »
@Julia Byrd,
I feel I’m almost stunned as well.
FWIW, when things started to unravel, I had the distinct impression that -DJ- was actually trying to support Arianna in an argument with another person (John A, I think). Neither talking to her or at her, but about her, hence the third-person perspective. But now I’m guilty of doing the same so I’ll just see my own way out of here.
In large, I share your sentiment on this site.
Take care.
When I was in my partying years, late teens to mid-20’s, I was that awkward guy who still had rarely been kissed, much less had a girlfriend. I had never made love to anyone, and it seemed I couldn’t get a date to save my life. Still, whenever I was out and about with my friends, should I (or we) see a girl that had drunk herself into oblivion (an occurance that wasn’t all that uncommon), my immediate action was always to put her in a cab to get her home, or sometimes even to a hospital. The possibility to… Read more »
Was actually, Mostly that made that particular comment, Anthony (credit where due). I know what you mean though. May as well have been me. I’ve heard it said many times. I sometimes wonder if there is a little alien in my head pulling strings and pushing levers because sometimes it surprised me too…and sometimes I look back and wonder what the hell I was talking about. LOL It is also why I’m fond of reading, Mostly from the get-go (well, I like reading all of you also). Far greater vocabulary then I, does challenge my intellect, but “mostly” because of… Read more »
Thank-you very much for the compliment- I do very much appreciate hearing your perspectives & experiences, and everyone else’s too (even when or if I disagree -or intensely disagree- with the ideas, ideals, tones, styles, or conclusions). It always takes everyone time to put those ideas into written words; and effort to define, refine & share those insights. So, even if I don’t end up agreeing with you, or you agreeing with me, or everybody else with everybody else, by doing this we’re still probably better off, by defining and refining our parameters and our logic. There was a story… Read more »
@Allianna I stopped back to this thread to try to elaborate a bit better with my assertion regarding the recent comment made here, because my goal is not to win the internet, but to create better understanding and enhance the discussion. I did not feel that I accomplished that very well.. However, I’ve been “upstaged”, by Mostly. I’m assuming male, but it really does not matter as I cannot conjure any better example of how either older, or more astute men will and do take other men to task, while adding proper education. I was raised around older (wiser) men,… Read more »
“Emelio Lizardo says: “We’re a sexually reproductive species, yes is part of the equation. It’s our job to fuck women. It’s their job to resist just enough to filter out the weak. It’s our job to do all we can to get to yes.” There’s only a lot wrong with that. Our ‘job’, as human beings, in a civil & civilized society, is to seek mutual accommodation and consensus- to create and to build together, out of mutual trust, respect, interest & joy; be it person to person, or in aggregate groups. Contrary to popular belief, on a collective long-term… Read more »
” take the ride with us down the path of least resistance to Fucksville.”
-DJ-, you have a way with words. You should know that I, and I suspect several others around here, read everything you write. Cheers!
“Let me make a suggestion that might be both insightful and helpful. Don’t assume that every man in this discussion hasn’t been a victim of non-consensual sex. ” Ah yeah, John. The ole male rape thing. Happy days, good times. ah fack…Here we go. I really hate bringing this up because it makes me feel like a victim, or in need of sympathy, or like I have a an emotional dog in this fight. it does not, I do not, and talking about it is like a slice of bologna in my shoes…but I was raped by a woman when… Read more »
@ D.J.
Sorry to hear that. I understand what you mean about being a victim. I’ve had sex with women where I hadn’t consented. I’ve never been able to use the R word except for a short time when talking about an instance when I was 15 and it’s because I had never viewed it as such until a few years ago. Maybe because it had statutory in front of it, it made it less real. I’m 48. It’s a shame that men have so little support in society that it takes 30 years to even recognize it.
Deep cleansing breaths people. Hi temp issue, but lets all try our best to keep the frustration, on both sides, at room temperature. Usually agree with you, John, but in this case we part ways just a bit. My agreement with Arianna is in her assertions about the need to bring awareness to the issue of rape, to get men involved in the discussion, and to extend that out to both men and women (which she did state), but as I said, not the means, or the assertion of the extent of rape culture. In that, we also part ways.… Read more »
“How the gender feminist type will turn that, and always do turn it” Hey! Here’s a thought! Maybe no gender will ALWAYS do anything! And maybe people are individuals. I keep asserting that this is both a male and female issue. I keep stating that these issue cannot be addressed from places of absolutes. I have specifically never mentioned MGTOW or MRA guys because I am well aware that extremists do not speak for all men. I am fascinated that you believed you know which viewpoints I have been exposed to. Guess what! They let women into schools now! Even… Read more »
Didn’t see that coming…and not sure what I said to earn those insults. I thought I was defending you. Was I not being polite to you? Have I not agreed with you on a number of issues? Did I not include myself in that statement about growing through conversation and interaction? Now I’m childish? For what? Because I disagree on a point? Because I took the (and rightly so), male side? I was speaking of the politically driven special interest group and their impact upon society, as assimilated through a one sided discussion. There was no insult to your education,… Read more »
You are childish because you are talking at me, not with me. You have not acknowledged a single one of my points as potentially valid, but rather you have granted me the kindness of assuming that I am probably a good girl who just needs to learn from the much wiser men here. You spoke about me and around me, but you have not acknowledged me as a human being with human experiences and education of her own right from which I am well able to form my own views. Did you shame and attack me when you implied that… Read more »
Hi John, I think that my problem is that I understand power all too well. From my standpoint, in the Marine situation, her power is not derived from physical strength, but societal power granted to a woman over a man in exactly the way that you demonstrated: He feared that he would be charged with rape. That power transcends physical power, and here is the kicker. In DV cases, Duluth has actually twisted physical power against men. It allows officers to deterring based on probability rather then actual events, witnesses, injury, confession. With that a raped or beaten man has… Read more »
We\re a sexually reproductive species, yes is part of the equation.
It’s our job to fuck women. It’s their job to resist just enough to filter out the weak.
It’s our job to do all we can to get to yes.
And there you have it.
Yes, but that does not a rape culture make, Arianna. We, as a society, do not condone that adolescent idea of relationships. it is youth, building upon youth. it is, Lord of the Flies, shit. It is what happens we eliminate the male role model (the father), and allow young boys to govern themselves, but we still do not, as a society, accept that as a justification for raping women.. It was more impacting in the movie then the book (which is strange in and of itself), but do we remember what occurred the instant the adult men showed up?… Read more »
Nope, DJ, you’re right.
A rape culture is one in which all of you men sit here proudly attacking me, slapping virtual high-fives, and NOT ONE OF YOU has told that guy he is out of line.
Should we ask him about his father? Maybe for his definition of rape culture?
Or should you guys just keep blaming the feminists and attacking me?
Arianna
Not only do they (he dj) blame the feminist but also all single mothers.
In my life, all the men that have pushed for sex when I said no,nagged me for sex , used all kinds of arguments or had the same attiude as Emilio here, they all grew up with a father and they were not sons of single mothers.
But this article should NEVER have been published here on GMP, simply because it is formed as hate speach and is not written with an intention to have a dialogue between men and women.
@ KIM
“But this article should NEVER have been published here on GMP, simply because it is formed as hate speach and is not written with an intention to have a dialogue between men and women.”
Exactly.
@ D. J. “Yes, but that does not a rape culture make, Arianna. We, as a society, do not condone that adolescent idea of relationships ” That’s one of the issue with the McEwen article. Rape culture is minimizing rape by equating it with something not rape like I got raped on my interest rate, but equating it with something not rape like “objectifying” women by looking a a lad mag is also rape culture because it is totally like raping a woman who agreed to pose in that magazine. TL / DR rape culture is supporting anything I don’t… Read more »
“It’s our job to fuck women. It’s their job to resist just enough to filter out the weak.”
That’s a f*%$#d way of putting it. It’s not women’s job to resist men. It’s about intelligent beings deciding who to have sex with willingly, and deciding who to become pregnant with. It’s also stupid to assume one gender does the asking, and the other the rejecting. Wtf is wrong with you?
“It’s our job to do all we can to get to yes.”
The way you wrote it sounds awful like encouraging someone to harass and keep asking until they get a yes from someone.
It’s our job to try make ourselves attractive enough, to ask someone out and respect their no. That goes for men and women.
Thank you!
I didn’t see his comment until after you had mentioned it as I was skimming the page to find the newer comments. I wish there was a way to minimize nested comments so it is easier to find the new comments.
@ Emelio Lizardo
You care to and some context to that comment because as it stands it’s pretty damn disturbing.
@ Emelio Lizardo,
Your comment is sheer fucking bullshit…I cannot believe you even wrote this crap.
But, as the famous author Oscar Wilde once wrote, “give a man a mask and you will hear the truth…” When you are able to hide behind the Internet, you can say this sort of stuff.
In my opinion, this mentality is what we are trying to move beyond. It is primitive and backwards as hell.
Thank you.
When it comes to doing things better, I would also suggest starting for the position that men in general care for women in general. For example I had a conversation with a male “feminist”. He was complaining about arguments men use. It went something like this. Father: I know my daughter. If she had been raped, I would definitely know. Feminist: You don’t know your daughter. You can’t know how it feels to be a woman. My suggestion was to approach him like this. I have no doubt you know your daughter well. I have no doubt you love your… Read more »
I would suggest that you should consider not starting from a place of assuming that all women would argue in the way that one woman did.
I’m not saying that every woman would, but that’s not the point. The point is to be able to explain things to men in a manner that is both understandable and not accusatory. Another example is during a discussion on street harassment where many women recounted experiencing frequent harassment, one man who was in his late 20s mentioned that he never saw an instance of a woman being street harassed. I responded that I was in my mid 40s and only (remember) 2 instances of street harassment of women. She reported that when she’s with her boyfriend, she’s never harassed,… Read more »
@ Arianna Jeret
Let me make a suggestion that might be both insightful and helpful. Don’t assume that every man in this discussion hasn’t been a victim of non-consensual sex.
@ John Anderson
Still waiting for you to find a quote from me that shows I have been assuming anything along those lines. If you want to keep @ing me, I suggest you start backing up your allegations against me or change your tone.
Let me also suggest that if you ask me, or anyone else, for clarifications and those clarifications are offered, you offer the reciprocal honor of reading and acknowledging them. And possibly going so far as to admit when you were wrong rather than add new false fuel to your fire.
@ Arianna Jeret So when you mentioned that you had spoken to survivors about this article, that was different? BTW: You’re responsible for the information YOU bring into a discussion and the way YOU present it. Saying I’m just quoting someone else while endorsing it is. You won’t be happy without direct quotes. OK. “That report is from 2010. The one I QUOTED is from September 2014.” Because those guys who reported being raped in 2010 were totally unraped as of 2014. “A study of 518 people of university age and also enrolled in a university can hardly be considered… Read more »
Wow. You are so desperately stuck in your need to villainize me here that the best you can do is accuse me of confirmation by proxy and making a valid notation about sample size and the chronology of studies? For the record, I never stated that the significance of sample size is in verifying the truthfulness of the study participants. But if you would like to understand better how to interpret and assess scientific studies, I am sure you can find vast resources for yourself on the web. I am proud to take full responsibility for how I have handled… Read more »
@John Gottman.
Sorry, can’t seem to post direct replies.
Yes, I can see the 3% thing, and understand what you mean. Good catch.
Well, its not exactly how I’d like the conversation to go, but it’s a good conversations non-the-less. I want to be clear here that I am on Arianna’s side and my only disagreement is the means by which we get there, not the goal. With that, my thoughts on how to proceed. 1 Learn about true male sexuality. I’m not talking about the pop-cultural outliers that get the press (guys wearing lingerie, being metrosexuals, or anything else). I’m talking the rest of us. 2. Stop associating male sexuality with violence against women. It is not, not at all. 3. Understand… Read more »
@ D.J. “3. Understand that if given the same power, women would (and have shown a great many examples of such), do so also ” You’re not fully comprehending the nature of power. There is a famous male survivor who helped start the discussion on male victims. I don’t name rape victims so I’ll leave his initials (J.L.). He was a marine who went out drinking with friends and spent the night with a woman. It wasn’t sexual. They were both too drunk to go home and they needed a place to crash. I think they split a hotel room.… Read more »
@ D. J. “I want to be clear here that I am on Arianna’s side and my only disagreement is the means by which we get there, not the goal.” Ummm, she asserted rape culture is something men do to women. She basically from what I saw argued that male victimization is insignificant at least when compared to female victimization if not in absolute numbers and that women basically can’t, don’t, or won’t rape at all. I want to believe that I’ve misinterpreted what she was trying to get at. I’m going under the assumption that it was a bad… Read more »
@ John Anderson
NO I DID NOT!
Find my quote saying it now. Go for it.
Then, when you cannot, because it doesn’t exist, please remind me who exactly is bullying whom.
@ Arianna Jeret “This is the definition that most resonates with me:” I read through the post again. In fairness, I suppose it might be better to say that rape culture is something men do to women and other men. I still don’t see female perpetration mentioned as stated before the 3% hides 90% of male rape victims and 99% of female perpetrators. Now I guess you could argue that recognizing 1% of female perpetrators (While erasing 99% of the perpetration and victims is technically a recognition, but as I’ve pointed out having spoken with male survivors, that hurts survivors… Read more »
@ John Anderson I chose the definition that resonated most for me out of those I found in a quick Google search because some people here were asking for a definition. I did not write, craft it, edit it, opine on it, assert it as the word of God or anything else. But let’s take a look at it, shall we. “Rape culture is rape being used as a weapon, a tool of war and genocide and oppression.” – non-gender specific. “Rape culture is a militarized culture and “the natural product of all wars, everywhere, at all times, in all… Read more »
John, I don’t think she was trying to minimize or dismiss male victimization. The stuff she has quoted hasn’t included the male side much but that’s because the source material doesn’t talk about male victimization much.
I think there is a huge amount of miscommunication going on in this article.
Thank you, Archy. I appreciate that very much.
Well said, yet again -DJ- I dunno, maybe because I’ve always been that incredibly short, scrawny, geeky guy, women don’t feel threatened by me, so I’ve had a ridiculous number of close female friends who have recounted to me so many of their thoughts, feelings, and experiences. I almost feel like I know what it’s like. But then, of course I do. I got the shit kicked out of me in school, locked in lockers, dumped in dumpsters. I could defend myself against one guy, even twice my size, but I was always a target anyway, and what do you… Read more »
Wow! Due to another thread on this site, I found the perfect description of my younger self, thanks to everything this particular thread has been about: At the other end of the extreme are the people who are deathly afraid of being creepy and worry that any little thing they do is going to be seen in the worst possible light. This ends up sabotaging their attempts to interact with women because they’re half-convinced that women are assuming they’re a creeper in advance and are just waiting for the excuse to reject them. Why was that me? Well, obviously because… Read more »
“We have absolutely no right, as men, to ‘convince’ women to do anything.” Bullshit. Everyone has the right to try to convince anyone else of anything. It’s called freedom of speech. “The fact that there IS a question in some of your minds, or the thought that maybe if you just point out why she’s wrong about her impression of you, or that she just misunderstood, or that she’ll be missing out on something awesome if she doesn’t give you a chance–that fact? That’s absolutely appalling.” No, what’s appalling is that so many people make snap judgements about other people… Read more »