Tom Matlack asked 12 women about their understanding of women’s relationship with beauty. Why did he hear almost nothing in response?
I like to believe I am a student of popular culture. Unlike most of my straight guy friends, I watch pretty much all the award shows (Amy Poehler stole the Emmys Sunday night, as far as I am concerned, with that spontaneous pageant routine during the best actress in a comedy award). I also have grudgingly become knowledgeable about beauty and fashion. As a columnist focused on manhood, I have certainly written and thought a lot about how men mistreat women and the ways in which we all need to rethink what it means to be good.
But my thinking has hit a bit of a stumbling block when it comes to women and beauty. My observation from talking to women of a wide variety of backgrounds and interests is that much of what happens in the general category of women and beauty is completely divorced from men. Sure there are bathing suits that require women to shave parts of their body not meant to be shaved and shoes with heels that only a member of Cirque du Soleil could handle without breaking an ankle. No doubt there are still magazines filled with women in compromising positions pushing beauty product.
My question, though, is who is the real audience here? Most guys I know would prefer to see their wife or girlfriend in jeans and a t-shirt. Red carpet dresses, the ones on which many women are fixated, look like space suits to the male eye. We are trained to say the right thing about all kinds of things that are “girl cute” but really have no bearing on whether or not, from a male perspective, a woman is attractive.
Don’t get me wrong. I am perfectly willing to accept that male oppression is alive and well when it comes to pornography, sex trafficking, and all kinds of bad shit that I and others at GMP have written about extensively. But when it comes down to female beauty itself and the massive fashion industry from magazines, to television shows, to store after store after store, I just don’t see it. Men don’t care about the stuff over which women obsess. There’s a disconnect. And while the connection between sexual exploitation and obsession with beauty is obvious, I can’t really raise a hand on behalf of men for all that has become a female addiction to beauty. I think there is certainly some part that women are doing to themselves in which we really have no involvement.
At least, I think it is worth asking whether or not that is true.
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Rather than speculate in my own little brain about this issue, I figured I would ask a dozen women who work in fashion or are media people related to the fashion industry in some way. They are all folks who comment frequently on GMP and with whom I generally have an open dialogue about pretty much anything. So I sent them this summary of my question:
I have written a lot about the acceleration of pornography and the sex trade in our country and its impact on both boys and girls. I am currently researching and just trying to get my arms around a related but different question: what is the relationship between the fashion industry and our concepts of gender? Specifically, how does fashion relate to the more obvious ways in which female sexuality is objectified?
The thing I am beginning to try to unpack is just how much of fashion occurs in an orbit that is unrelated to men. I am thinking of things like handbags, shoes, and the red carpet. Men truly don’t care or see it as a form of female sexuality. Many women care a lot.
I asked some specific questions about Alexander McQueen, handbags, the red carpet, fashion magazines, the potential innate differences between men and women, and the demise of female models as superstars.
What did I heard back? Crickets. No one wanted to take me on. Perhaps it was summer. Perhaps my outgoing email is overwhelming. Perhaps my supposed friends are sick of me. Or perhaps I hit a chord. Not sure.
The only response I got right away read:
As I’m sure you know, there are plenty of women who couldn’t care less about any of this shit.
The women you describe are alien creatures to me. Perhaps you’re not looking at “women” but at a particular demographic that involves a certain age and a certain level of money and leisure that does not include most of us?
A week later I got an answer that really puzzled me, given my preamble about having written about sexual exploitation and pornography a lot (which I have):
I would love to have you talk about the fact that in many cities in this country there is a massive sex slavery trade of immigrant women. The FBI estimates that thousands of women every year are smuggled into the US and held in sex slave operations. Only men, good men can change this. Does a guy really know, when he gets super horny or wants to do something that his wife won’t do (that he probably saw on a porn video) that the woman he is paying, really chose this for herself?
Wow, so the answer to a question about the fashion industry is sex trafficking even when I explicitly point out I am asking about something different? “Only men, good men can change this.” That line leaves me speechless. It implies that all men are guilty by association and women are completely powerless.
I have met a lot of women working damn hard to end sex trafficking who are very effective. I believe sex trafficking is despicable. That’s why I have written about it as often as I have. (Here, here, and here.) But to lay the whole issue at men’s feet is gender war talk, and it is disturbing when I am trying to understand what, if any, role women themselves play in the beauty obsession and trap. Maybe I don’t know, but talking more about sex slaves doesn’t illuminate much.
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I did finally get one response that made some sense to me (I have yet to hear from the other nine women):
It’s a way for a woman to feel both sexy AND protected. Women are in this peculiar “dance” with their sexuality. High-end fashion says, “Hey, you can look but you can’t touch.” It is telling people (mostly men, but sometimes other women) she’s a member of a club they can only get into with exclusive permission.
This writer went on:
For women, beauty (and fashion) have their own “tipping point.” A certain amount of things have to be taken care of for a woman to look “beautiful.” That’s why when someone says “she let herself go” — it means she hasn’t “tipped” into the beauty category. Or stopped tipping. So a handbag may not seem important AT ALL. But to a women who is obsessed with beauty, she can’t take the risk that it’s not right.
I have been drop-dead gorgeous twice in my life. Once from 17-24, once from 42-44. And it was all the same cycle. Beauty is an addiction. That’s why I’m not anymore.
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I am not a women. I can’t really say if beauty is an addiction. Where I come from, addiction is a self-diagnosed disease. But from the outside it makes a certain amount of sense. I see women spending endless time on things that to most men seem insane (another trademark of addiction).
I do think it perfectly appropriate to ask what originally caused this potential addiction. Is it male objectification of the female form that forces women to contort themselves in ways that even men see as odd at best and annoying at worst?
I don’t know the answer, but I think it is worth asking the question, even if no one seems to want to respond to it.
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More on Women’s Obsession with Beauty
Chasing Beauty: An Addict’s Memoir
Her Looks, Your Status: Why His Claims Not to Care About Beauty Ring Hollow
The Ugly Duckling as a Gender-Neutral Beauty Ideal
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—Photo Art Comments/Flickr
Also, the question you mailed out to those very busy women? There’s this thing? Called Google? That like, you can use to search out the oh, several hundred at least articles written by internet feminists on all aspects of this very topic where you could have found oodles of tidbits for your ‘research’. If you actually took the trouble to read what feminists have been writing about and discussing for years, then you could have written an actual article, instead of whining how those nasty feminists were ignoring you and sending you nonsensical* replies. *And by ‘nonsensical’ I actually mean… Read more »
Dude, listen to yourself: “Only men, good men can change this.” That line leaves me speechless. It implies that all men are guilty by association and women are completely powerless. Yes. Exactly. It is men who are purchasing and raping trafficked women. What it takes to stop trafficking is for men to stop buying it. Women are basically powerless to stop rapists. There is nothing you can do, nothing you can wear, no place you can go that will prevent you from being raped. Rapists have to stop raping, for rape to stop. 99% of rapists are men. I ask… Read more »
I can only speak for myelf but i have to admit that i am absolutely obsessed with my beauty, though i`d say that i dont consciously think about it all day long. i do only feel convident leaving the house when i feel pretty which doesnt require a lot of makeup. it is some kind of hard to explain but i want to smell good, have glowing skin, shiny hair, my nails done my makeup done my clothing (which i am also obsessed about) thought-out….but at the same time it is supposed to look effortless. i spen so much time… Read more »
I wonder if there aren’t just different forces a play that can explain the contradictions? Women’s appearance, beauty, and sexuality have been made into a big deal throughout history. Even if there is more equality and women are seen as equal and complete human beings a women’s appearance still carries a great deal of cache. And that cache, I believe, was largely created by oppression, patriarchy, and sexism. And so now we have different parties who want to affect and control that cache. Perhaps women want to take back ownership of their own appearance/cache and so adorn themselves in ways… Read more »
This article is great. It really opens up the many facets of answers to the questions revolving around male/female beauty and appreciation. I actually wrote an article myself which touches on (kind of) the same question, read it in the link i’ve posted below- it is titled “What Does it Mean to be a Woman (outside the context of man)?” as a woman who strives to see the beauty in myself and other woman from an inner/soul position, i have to admit that i LOVE spending money on expensive, pretty, shit. It must be said, though, that pretty, fashionable expensive… Read more »
I have heard all kinds of men profess to prefer their women in jeans and t-shirts… and I have heard few of those men say a word about the looks of a woman who is dressed in jeans and a t-shirt with flat shoes and no makeup, and most of them praise the appearance of a woman who has gone to some trouble to look beautiful. I’m sure it’s not intentional hypocrisy, but it’s not something any woman with two brain cells to rub together fails to notice. And it’s not just men: women treat you differently when you take… Read more »
I also regularly see how women who ‘do themselves up’ get more outward attention and gestures from both men and women and get approached more often and the like. However, I don’t think it is just that women are rewarded when they partake in this. I’m a guy, and I have been scolded numerous times by women for NOT commenting or drawing attention or making a fuss when a women dresses ‘up’ in some way. So I tend to think of this ‘doing up’ as a signal, a signal that can mean a lot of different things at different times… Read more »
With due respect, I think your initial email — at least the excerpt — wasn’t very clear in the questions it wanted to explore. I also think there’s some unintentional sexism in wondering why (some) women are obsessed with fashion/beauty if men aren’t pressuring them into it; women have interests, both healthy and unhealthy, that have nothing to do with men. The most fashion-obsessed women I know could not care less about what men think about their style choices. But I also think fashion and beauty are two distinct things. Beauty, though… Of course men play a role in the pressure to… Read more »
Hi there. My sympathies for the remarkably poor answers to your questions. I’ve had conversations with my female friends many times about this. Yes, it happens, heterosexual women do dress for other women. And, themselves. This is does not exclude dressing for men. I will take equal care of my physical appearance if I am going for dinner with my women friends or a man I am interested in. Fashion and beauty are (sadly) a very large part of (some) women’ s interactions. Why? Well, I am sure the massive advertising industry dedicated to selling women all kinds of beauty… Read more »
I get what you’re saying.
Though I’d love if some people examined how much they do it out of a genuine “I like doing this” instead of a “All women do this, I don’t want to stand out!” thing.
I also hardly ever wear make-up. But own lolita fashion dresses for my own interest.
point 1. in nature, males are the well-dressed ones so they can impress the females and therefore be more successful in propagating the species. point 2. now that females participate in the modern-day hunting – the necessary occupation of making money so we can feed ourselves – women take on the roles previously reserved for males point 3. fashion doesn’t have to be about sexual attractiveness- it’s also a way to compete with or impress other women and gay men, a necessary part of the race for resources point 4. when fashion IS about sex, it’s about how wearing something… Read more »
Well fashion and beauty are two different things. It’s beauty that men are interested in and fashion that women (and gay men to some extent) are interested in. To be sure, a relatively plain looking woman can become beautiful given the right application of fashion (which I will include makeup in this), but the type of beauty that men desire is something a woman has or does not have and fashion cannot help her attain. When it’s all said and done, men don’t care about shoes and bags and false eyelashes and the feminine accoutrements of fashion. They care about… Read more »
Fashion and beauty are 5000 yr old traditions separating social classes of women. Blue collar women don’t have to spend time, and money on makeup and clothes for work. They are efficiency experts w/ performance based on merit. White collar women have to spend money, and time appropriate to a formal career environment. These women are required to work w/ style, and specific social standards of dress, based on big box retail designer image. There is no choice. All identity has its price. Fashion is an art form of tremendous global growth, volume and profit, with emerging working middle class… Read more »
And the changing hem lines are both indicative and predictive of economic boom or bust. Hem lines frequently get shorter just before or during economic downturns. In terms of history, the more fabric you wore the wealthy you were.think of the nine or ten petticoats women wore under their dresses to create the bell shaped skirts. Or that very wealthy women wore dresses made from enough fabric to make three dresses for the serving women. Laces and luxury fabrics were tied to specific aristocratic strata. Called it the sumptuary laws I believe
You say that men don’t care, but, at least in my experience, it makes a huge difference as far as male attention goes. Until the age of 23, I lived “beauty-free” — without expensive clothes, accessories, or cosmetics. I didn’t style my hair or engage in facial depillation. My body also was a lot “closer” to the straight-sized norm: I wore small sizes and had a thin, modelesque figure. And men never paid any attention to me. So, I “made over” my image. (Having ah igher paying job helped.) I now wear expensive, designer clothes, use high-end cosmetics, engage in… Read more »
Sabrina I wasn’t saying men don’t care, I was really asking what role men play. Your story and experience are obviously very helpful in answering that.
I think more likely the case is that women use fashion to *feel* sexy and beautiful. A confident woman is usually a more attractive woman, and so engaging in practices that make you feel more beautiful, will make you seem more beautiful, without the clothes and the makeup and the accessories being the object of that acquired beauty. It’s external change to prompt an internal change.
I recently overheard a female friend’s male fuckbuddy tell her that she was “letting herself go” when he discovered she hadn’t shaved her legs in a few days. How could that comment possibly have been about anything other than him telling her that unless she engaged in socially-mandated beauty rituals she was going to become unattractive to him? I’m not saying this guy is a stand-in for all men, but I would never claim that men don’t care about or have no influence on women’s beauty maintenance.
My experience is pretty much the same as Sabrina’s, except that I was very late to the party in finding out just how much looks matter to men. I work in several “male dominated” fields and so most of my close associates and friends are men. I heard a lot of bitching from men about how they didn’t understand why women spend 2 hours in the bathroom getting ready to go out, “she looks fine just wearing jeans,” etc. etc. and I believed them, because 1) they were intelligent perceptive guys whom I liked a great deal as human beings,… Read more »
I think you provide a really great insight on beauty. I as a woman personally define the term beautiful (as applied to women) as the quality that appeals to the opposite sex. Quality is a vague word, so it doesn’t necessarily mean everything from outside, neither does it mean absolutely everything from the inside. So I also think going overboard for the outward appearance is ridiculous, much worse is setting a default definition of physical beauty. Back in my country there are plenty of women living in poverty (Indonesia), and sex trafficking is not uncommon, but there are plenty of… Read more »
Great stuff. That study sounds very interesting. Will have to check it out.
Seems to me that women’s fashion and women’s clothing choices are sometimes about male desire and sometimes not. I find it hard to believe no one considers hetero male desire when marketing mini-skirts, thongs, thigh-high stockings, spaghetti straps, high heels, low-waisted jeans, etc. On the other hand, I don’t think there’s a hetero man alive who is turned on by the expensive designer handbag or the giant bug-eyed sunglasses. (Maybe turned on by wearing them himself, but on women? I doubt it.) If you’re sinking half your paycheck on a boutique handbag or high-end Italian heels, do not blame men… Read more »
Men have a sense of humor about womens’ clothes,and patience w/ fads.
Men react physiologically to their environment, including women. The intent behind less fabric is what is in question w/ sexism.
Women need to live w/ social reality. Fad fashions don’t work everywhere, as teen years of past.
There’s an implied purpose for adult women in society lost in silly clothes. I’m sure this is confusing to men, as well as the rest of the population.
Male attraction has nothing to do with it. Its status among women. It displays the wealth resources and incredible amount of free time and energy is needed each day to look this way. Just ask the new mother why she’s so disheveled.
In my experience there are some things that are far more about status between women than between women and men. Women are far more vicious, cruel, and attentive in regards to female fashion mistakes than men are. My test on this point has always been for a woman with fresh nail coloring to hold a conversation with a man in which they don’t draw attention to their hands. After five minutes the woman is supposed to hold her hands behind her back and ask the man what color they are. I’ve yet to have a girl tell me a straight… Read more »
I guess MIchael my question is whether or not it’s possible to be yourself in some authentic way, whether male or female, and still be powerful without playing the game? I have seen examples of this and in a weird way it seems to me if you have the courage to stand apart you have more power than if you knuckle under to what is expected.
There was this book I read a few years ago called “Ways of Seeing” by John Berger. In one of the essays, he mentions how women play the roles of both men (the observers) and women (the observed).
Women are critical of their own appearances because they know their looks are constantly scrutinized. The situation evolves to the point where it has nothing to do with men anymore. It just becomes their self-identity. I have no doubt in my mind that this attitude in women, that persistent self-consciousness, is the driving force behind the fashion industry.
Tom, I have found that the women who are working the hardest to end prostitution and other forms of misogyny are usually the ones who say “only men can stop it.” They aren’t saying it because they think women are powerless. They are saying it because they have been in many situations where people will only listen to men tell the facts about trafficing, they won’t listen to women. They are saying it because other men play a decisive role in men’s attitudes and behavior. Lots of research suggests that people will not take a social justice movement seriously until… Read more »
From the piece, “Sure there are bathing suits that require women to shave parts of their body not meant to be shaved and shoes with heels that only a member of Cirque du Soleil could handle without breaking an ankle.”
So I am with you on the heels and a variety of other pretty stupid male-induced fashion trends. As a male I actually find it a lot more attractive when a women finds a way to be herself than shoving herself into some uncomfortable silly armor.
Kath I am sure Lisa would be happy to have you or Allan write on this topic. Drop her a line at the info email address on the home page.
Ah. High heels. That is a bit of an issue, isn’t it. I haven’t put high heels on my (happy) feet since 1998. They’re not comfortable. They’re not good for my feet. And, I refuse to wear them. I do not need my butt to wiggle. My husband (of almost 15 years) would rather me not wear heels. He thinks they’re completely senseless and is glad I don’t. I have several friends who, over the years, tried to convince me that I would be more sexy if I wore heels. I worry about these women. Teetering around on spikes isn’t… Read more »
Yeah, I totally agree with you about the “women’s”. I hate standing in line at the grocery store with those magazines. Such useless drivel. Why don’t they have the Atlantic, the New Yorker or magazines on sports (mens or womens), outdoors activities, or science at the till? I’ve never understood why women read this poison.
That said, I do viscerally understand the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue (though I prefer Ironman’s swimsuit issues myself. Now those women are HOT!). Sigh…
Yeah. I get the Swimsuit Issue. But, even they’re all airbrushed into *perfection* also. Plus, they can’t eat and look like blowup dolls, because while we can see their ribs, their breasts are practically popping out of the page (which is the point, I guess) – when you’re simply being judged on your looks (because they are all models) – nothing else matters, really. I hate those magazines, especially when I’m forced to stare at Victoria Beckham all the time (I live in New Zealand). Seriously, can we put someone else on the front of these things? She looks like… Read more »
Interesting that the letter in Cary Tennis’ column today is about beauty as well; it’s a topic I think about a lot, as a 46 year old woman who has, like Bec, never been traditionally beautiful. Like you, Tom, I look back at pictures from my teen years and see that I was pretty enough, but I never knew it and wasn’t treated that way. At 46, I like the way I look, but I do recognise the parts of my face, especially, that are not symmetrical or “perfect”, and I have a difficult time finding men to date. We… Read more »
I believe that from an early age, we are shown through mass media what is ‘beautiful’ and what is not. I do know women who epitomize the ‘idea’ of beauty, and I know those who chase it consistently. It comes down to how you view yourself, and if you internalize the messaging that comes across in our culture. I am not 5’10 an I do not weigh 110 lbs. But I must admit, I do enjoy finding a nice piece of clothing that flatters my slightly round body. And I do want to look good, although I know when my… Read more »
Correction: “I think it comes down to owning what you want to be, and being confident enough to know that the mass-marketed images we see so frequently are desirable.”
I meant to say that “… it comes down to owning what you want to be, and being confident enough to know that the mass-marketed images we so so frequently are NOT that desirable.”
I think the problem here is laziness on the part of the author (for not casting a wider net for a sample of how women relate to beauty) and for majority of the women who didn’t think the question deserved even the courtesy of any kind of response; how busy can these woman be that they can’t spare 15-30 minutes on something they are experts about? The problem is Madison Avenue’s death-like grip on the minds of women from the cradle to the grave feeding them a line of bull about how to be their best, and get the best… Read more »
Agree about Madison Avenue. On the folks I emailed, the part that I found interesting is that they would talk about just about anything else but were silent on this. I of course could have talked to more women but wanted to write this as a question for readers rather than an answer.
Interesting timing on this article. I have always been entitled to the various priviledges we bestow upon people considered ‘attractive’. I just started dating a fashion photographer and am wondering if his being around super young ‘beautiful’ women will make it harder to remain confident about myself, especially as I age. It is MY responsibility to help myself stay comfortable and sassy… and I need to do that no matter who I partner with. I want to to figure this all out so I can enjoy this opportunity with a man who has been very kind to me so far.
Like Jill, I think that there’s a pretty clear distinction between fashion and beauty. High fashion, particularly for those who can’t afford it (like me), is more of an art form. It’s something to be appreciated aesthetically. Depending on the designer, “sexy” may not even come into the equation. When it does, however, I think that it’s more a representation of what women have been convinced that men find sexy, not necessarily what they actually do. As for beauty, though, definitely has a lot of male influence. If you send two twins into a bar, one plainly dressed with no… Read more »
“The high standards of beauty for women need to be challenged by everyone, men and women. This is definitely a topic where i think women have a say and more should be outspoken against this.”
I guess that was really my point. Not that men are innocent of focussing of superficial beauty, but that we are all in this together to some extent and the insanity really has to stop, specially when you think about young women like my daughter.
Feminist women have been outspoken from the get-go about oppressive standards of feminine beauty. Naomi Wolf wrote the classic, “The Beauty Myth” and in about every Gloria Steinem book I have read, she challenges double standards of beauty.
The problem is that when women talk about beauty oppression, they frequently get lambasted.
The double standard of beauty may be subconscious. It may be like subconscious racism and sexism. That certainly doesn’t excuse it, but it does mean we need to address it.
‘Men don’t care about the stuff over which women obsess’ said Tom.
This is palpably untrue. As Elissa said above men are consumers of beauty products now, and in countries like the US and the UK, at far higher rates than the global 15-20% she quotes.
the GMP has only just featured a piece by Mark Simpson, an expert in men’s consunption of beauty products and cosmetics. I think Tom could do with some metrosexual reflection of his own.
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/metrosexual-reflections/
There was a lady i think her name was wendy, who wrote in reply to me on gmp a month or so ago about fulani men. in that culture as with maasai men, it is the men who beautify themselves more than the women.
it would be interesting to see if the pressures to meet their male beauty standard taxes them as heavily as the female beauty standard appears to tax western women. perhaps wendy can comment on it
While I agree that women tend to fall prey to the industry standard, I don’t think it occurs in a vacuum. While men don’t (on average) care that your outfit is trendy or your purse branded, they do uphold the beauty concept displayed in fashion imagery. Take an image from the ad pages in InStyle, for example. I can read this magazine and look solely at the clothes, whereas my male counterparts reading over my shoulder are looking at the women. Same images, different outlooks, right? Seemingly, but subliminally, the messages of attractiveness and fashion are leaking through to each… Read more »
Great comment. With a teenage daughter and son, and a fashion conscious wife In-Style comes into our house (a prior version of this piece actually included the way all the women in our house, guests included, would devour the fall preview like some kind of bible). But truth be told you are exactly right. Men look at the bodies, women look at the clothes. It’s all the same picture. I really like the second half of your comment. Again as the father of a 17 year old daughter and a 15 year old son these issue are front and center… Read more »
Ahh the fall fashion editions!!! I’m glad you are taking such a pro-active stance with both of your children. While it’s true that girls suffer with body image issues to a greater degree, it’s not to say that boys don’t, as you clearly highlit in your personal example. Also, it is true that how boys view girls impacts them both in the long-term. As a woman of ‘family’ age, I often find that those family influences (good and bad) rear their heads when deciding the future of a relationship with someone. Those discussions of body, fmaily and traditional gender roles… Read more »