Have you ever met someone who complains about sex discrimination against one gender and then supports sex discrimination when it’s the other way around? Our International Men’s Movement editor Glen Poole shares some personal experiences of sexism in surprising places.
The first job was as a cleaner where the female boss spent the interview telling me how much better women are at cleaning than men.
Then I went for a job as a barman only to be told by the male boss that he wanted a barmaid because the men who drank there preferred to be served by women.
Finally, I was given a one-hour trial at a food-processing plant. They set me the challenge of standing around a barrel with a group of older women peeling potatoes to see if I could get along with the all-female team. I don’t know if it was man’s innate inability to prepare vegetables or the belief that women get on better with women that swung it, but they decided they didn’t want a man on their team.
All of this took place in 1980s Blackpool, a depressed seaside resort about 50 miles north of Liverpool in the North of England. Unemployment was at its peak in the UK and most local jobs for young people were in retail or leisure. I became acutely aware of how many businesses put handwritten notes in their windows advertising for women—“waitress required”, “barmaid wanted”, “female shop assistant, apply within”.
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“I decided that the vacant position of gender warrior was not looking for male applicants at this time.”
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I got hold of some guidelines explaining how to complain about sex discrimination through the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC). There were lots of examples of women being discriminated against and making complaints. The best case study told the story of a woman who was refused work on a building site for being too weak and female. She walked into court carrying sacks of cement on her shoulder and promptly won her case.
I fantasized for a while about walking into court with a duster, cleaning the place perfectly; serving up a beer for with a cheeky barmaid’s wink and preparing some vegetables while making girly small talk with any women present—but it just didn’t have the same sense of triumph over the status quo as being an empowered woman claiming the right to take on a “man’s role”.
I decided that the vacant position of gender warrior was not looking for male applicants at this particular time. Fortunately, I’d become a beneficiary of these sexist employment policies by getting a “men-only” job at a local haberdashery. According to the male owner, he mostly employed girls because they’re more sensible than boys—but as “girls have periods and boys are good at lifting things”, the job was mine.
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So at 17 years old I finally entered the workforce in no doubt that while the laws on equality said one thing, the world did another—carrying stuff was men’s work and complaining about sex discrimination was a job for women who wanted to prove they were as good as any man.
Years later when I had media skills and was a full-time dad I saw an advert for a press officer at the Equal Opportunities Commission. I phoned to ask if the one year of parental leave they gave women would apply to me if we had a second child —as the primary carer in our household I was the one who would need to take the time off, not my wife.
Guess what? The Equal Opportunities Commission told me it would only give parental leave to female staff who had babies and wouldn’t support any male staff who were primary carers to take the time off work. Who do you complain to when the people in charge of challenging sex discrimination discriminate against men?
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Who do you complain to when the people in charge of challenging sex discrimination discriminate against men?
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The Equal Opportunities Commission was set up in 1975 to enforce the Equal Pay Act and promote gender equality. It published reports highlighting how women “shouldering the burden” of childcare helps cause the gender pay gap. And yet when it came to supporting families where dad is “shouldering the burden” of childcare, they refused to give dads the same support they give to mums.
It’s interesting to note that the Equal Opportunities Commission used to be run by a team of women-only commissioners. They didn’t put handwritten job adverts in their office window saying “commissioners wanted, boys need not apply”, but they might as well have done.
The first man to break through the glass partition at the Equal Opportunities Commission was Duncan Fisher, an expert on the systemic barriers faced by dads who want to share, or take on fully, the responsibilities of childcare.
Duncan is a decorated pro-feminist who was awarded an Order of the British Empire (OBE) by Queen Elizabeth II for his services to children as CEO of The Fatherhood Institute.
He has long been highlighting the fact that the countries which give parents the most equal parental leave rights are the countries which tend to have the narrowest gender pay gap.
Despite this knowledge, in 2006 the UK introduced “one of the most unequal parenting leave entitlement regimes in the world”, he says.
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As well as exacerbating the gender pay gap for women, this approach to parental leave also has an impact on what happens to dads when they separate.
The countries with the most equal and supportive parental leave systems seem to be the countries where separated dads are most involved in their children’s lives.
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Sweden is generally hated by men’s rights activists as ‘the world’s most feminist country’.
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In Sweden, which is generally hated by men’s rights activists as “the world’s most feminist country”, separated fathers are three times more likely to share the custody and parenting of their children than in the UK.
Let’s be clear, the parenting gap for separated dads in Sweden is still huge – and its notably narrower than other countries that have excluded dads from their thinking when it comes to parental leave rights.
And I’ve yet to find a Fathers’ Rights campaign that fights for equal parental leave rights for mums and dads when children are born with the same passion they fight or equal rights for dads when they separate.
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Looking back on my own fatherhood journey, I’d like to have had equal rights as a dad every step of the way. It’s over 25 years since I entered the world of work and I can see now that there was a path I wanted to follow as a man that my culture wasn’t prepared for.
I didn’t want a ‘man job’ I wanted a ‘me job’ and I didn’t want to be a dad who earned enough money to employ my partner to be a full-time mum—I wanted to be a full-time dad and be financially independent.
A great career, a great income and a great hands-on dad—that’s what I personally aspired to and while I’ve had my glimpses, I haven’t ticked all the boxes.
I also ticked boxes I didn’t know existed, particularly in terms of relationships, friendships and personal growth. And as my personal concerns have shifted from the egocentric to the ethnocentric to the worldcentric, I’ve become interested in the change I want to see for everyone, not just for me.
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“I want future generations of boys and girls to grow up in cultures that don’t simply stick them in ‘man jobs’ or ‘woman jobs’.”
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I want future generations of boys and girls to grow up in cultures that don’t simply stick them in “man jobs” or “woman jobs”, I want us to help each child discover their unique brilliance so they can live their lives to the full in ways that serves themselves and serves others.
I want every parent to have real choice in the role they play in bringing up their children and I want men and women (and every other gender imaginable) to learn to work in partnership with each other no matter what their gender is.
This isn’t about reversing roles or making everything 50:50, it’s about empowering individuals to make choices that work for themselves and work for others. Understanding how we do gender is not the only pathway to this and I’m telling you ‘siblings’, it’s a part of the journey we can’t ignore
If your view of gender problems is filtered through the belief that women ‘have’ problems and men ‘are’ problems then you end up with solutions that support women and penalize men. And if you think men ‘have’ problems and women ‘are’ problems the reverse is also true.
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One of life’s ironies is that I ended up working for the Equal Opportunities Commission when they hired the media relations consultancy that I worked for. We got along fine until someone heard me on radio advocating for fathers’ rights and I became persona non grata.
I took it personally at the time. My views on gender equality weren’t politically constructed at that stage, they were simply born out of personal experience. I grew up aware that women faced sexism and discrimination and then experienced sexism and discrimination as a man.
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“Those who are charged with tackling sex discrimination against women often endorse sex discrimination against men.”
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It was the most natural thing in the world for me to be concerned with both and a huge wake-up call when I discovered that those who are charged with tackling sex discrimination against women often endorse sex discrimination against men.
A decade on, having worked on the gender equation from many different angles, I can see strengths, weaknesses and diversity on all sides.
When it comes to shared parenting for example, one feminist perspective is that men’s unwillingness to “lean in”, “pull their weight” and “share the burden” of childcare holds back women’s progress – if only those patriarchal men would change, women could have equality.
On the other side one men’s rights perspective is that women’s refusal to relinquish “ownership” and “control” of their children prevents separated dads from sharing their kids—if only we could “defeat feminism” and change the laws that discriminate against dads, men would have equality.
When you ask people individually what the cause of these problems is the answer is clear – it’s either men, women, feminism or the patriarchy. And the solution is equally clear—it’s either men changing, women changing, defeating feminism or dismantling the patriarchy.
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From a personal perspective I’ve found that men, women, feminism and the patriarchy have all resisted the path that I want to take as a man at different times.
I’ve found I’m most empowered as a man—particularly when trying to change things outside of me—when I change what’s inside first.
And I’ve found that considering how the problems that women and men face can provide us with opportunities to help each other grow and flourish and fulfil our potential — to be far more rewarding and effective than any other approach I’ve taken to solve gender problems.
All the external gender problems I’ve personally faced have been because I’m viewed by someone else as “the wrong gender” or the “the wrong gender ideology”.
My parting invitation to you is this—the next time you find yourself thinking that someone’s gender or gender ideology is a problem—stop saying to yourself “what’s their problem?” and start asking yourself “what’s their potential?”
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—Photo credit: adactio/Flickr
Further Reading: We’ve Got To Learn To Talk About Men
I was born in a female body and lived for 32 years as a woman. 5 years ago I began my transition and am now living as a man. I live in Canada. I have to say that my experience of feminism has been toxic, at best, no matter which side of the gender divide I was on. I heard all kinds of male blaming and bashing when it came to ‘why things are hard for women’ I now experience, directly, the anti-male vibe that I feel runs through the society I live in. Good on you for calling us… Read more »
Hi Glen, You have been speaking in the discussion on this article, about using measurable objective facts. In particular this line :- “It takes a lot of practice but learning to tell the difference between the objective facts and the subjective story you tell about the facts is one of the most empowering practices I’ve ever come across.” I don’t doubt it. And I would hypothesise this is something that has come through realisation and experience, trial and error. But, I would think it has very far reaching implications for us all in a general sense, and can be applied… Read more »
Hey Paul
Thanks for that comment and thanks for the recommedation—I’m not clear which idea you’re asking me to write about:
-The practice of learning the difference between objective facts and subjective story?
-The idea of being responsible, empowered men who set an example to others?
(And by the way whichever it is GMP welcomes submissions if you want to write something yourself)
Best
Glen
Glen,
Sorry for taking my time getting back. And thank you for the welcome.
I was recommending the practice of learning between objective facts, and subjective story. Which to my mind is a self empowering tool, or at least letting go of dis empowering practices.
Regards
Paul
I was briefly working for Portsmouth City Council as a finance officer in their IT department. During one of my appraisals they asked me if there was anything they could do to make my job easier, I asked for assertiveness training. “Would that help?” I was asked. “Sure, I’ve got to go round every week and ask for everyone’s timesheets. Everyone hates having to do their timesheets because it gets in the way of doing their job, but I can’t do my job until I have their timesheets, but all I feel when I ask for their timesheets is that… Read more »
Danny and Archie are the last men who post regularly on this site. I give you guys a lot of credit – I don’t know how you stand it. Yeah – I know – this won’t get posted, but what the heck I’ll take a chance.
I wouldn’t say we are the last men. I’m all for saying that we may be the last men of a certain type or something like that but I’m not willing to say that there are no other men that post regularly. (Hey if nothing else give Justin Casico and Mark Green a read.)
Good stuff. Too many comments (long ones at that) for me to attempt to read and wade in though, so I’m just leaving it at that 🙂
For the gentleman above who questioned the value of patriarchy as a theory about men, here is a definition I came across today which appears helpful in understanding potential concerns with the theory: http://reference.avoiceformen.com/wiki/Patriarchy_theory
FWIW
In regard to parental equal rights, I was happy to see placards advertising a law office (specializing in divorce) in that proclaimed: Good Lawyers Doing Good Things for Good Men. Someone saw the need for men to be represented with an advocacy that has traditionally been missing in divorce proceedings. Parenting aside: I work for a large medical center. Health care administration is a career that has been dominated by women for some years. Despite repeated law suits alleging anti-male discrimination (that are quickly hushed up and settled out of court with minimal publicity) the institution refuses to address the… Read more »
Hi David
Very interesting – can you give a flavour of the types of anti-male discrimination that goes on?
Best
Glen
Sure: Men are routinely passed up for promotions in favor of less experienced women. Men are routinely singled out for disciplinary action more than the women with the same behavior (e.g., being online at work, having too many sick days, patterned absenteeism, and chronic tardiness). Men are routinely put under more scrutiny than women in regards to performance, the women then earning the most opportunities to shine. Men have to fight for opportunities for further training which is routinely offered to newly hired women. And there have been instances of sexual harassment. In one clinic, two men documented more than… Read more »
Thank you David
I’m reminded of Benjamin Franklin’s famous quip, “some of us are more equal than others.” When you apply for assistance as a single parent, don’t tell the bureaucrats that you’re male. If they discriminate against men, then the burden should be on them to prove that you are a dad and not a mum. Seriously, are they just saying that you’re male because of your appearance? That’s awfully superficial and terribly arbitrary, and it puts far too much trust into the hands of an individual functionary, which is not something that national bureaucracies tolerate. If they say you’re not eligible,… Read more »
Oh, come on Glen, Fathers Direct/Fatherhood Institute deliberately positioned themselves to ensure that they were the acceptable face of fatherhood and have made a very nice living out of it. The way you join the establishment is to do what the establishment wants you to do and by making sure that you don’t do anything that will bring about any real change. That’s why Kids in the Middle, which perpetuated the lone parent model of support to separated families, got the DCSF money in 2009 at a time when other organisations were arguing for whole family support that respected the… Read more »
Thanks Nick
I’m interested to know what you stand for and what your proposed solutions are in this area?
I think we can agree that separated dads in general get a raw deal and that the dominance of pro-feminist men’s charities in the sector is problematic – so what’s your way forward?
Best
Glen
I’m afraid I don’t have time to write what I stand for in any detail but I think it’s all out there for anyone who is interested and wants to look. But, essentially, I’m interested in people. I’m not interested in fighting the sex war, but I am interested in ensuring that people’s lives aren’t ruined by zealots, ideologues and disinterested half-wits. As for solutions, I don’t have any. I just keep working with individuals and families in a way that feels congruent and trying my best to respond to their own individual lived experiences. I also continue to try… Read more »
Thanks Nick I think it’s really important that people working in the men and boys sector – particularly the non-feminists – to keep generating positive conversations about what we want – what we are FOR – in my experience there is far too much conversation about what we don’t want, what we don’t like, what we disagree with My aim is to keep finding opportunities to talk about what we do want, what we know works, what’s already happening that makes a difference and how we can get more people to take more actions that improve the lives of men… Read more »
@ Ben,I wonder if there is some way to acknowledge the validity of individual experiences without using language so weighted down by non-shared and often unconscious assumptions about the nature of reality. I have my doubts, but when feminists talk of the need for male allies, I think to myself, well, we need allies, too, and I can get behind you if your goal is equality for every human, AND men need allies, as well, and not in the sense that we need help understanding our faults, but in the sense that we need help acheiving equality for boys and… Read more »
“You are absolutely kidding yourself Glen that there would ever have been any kind of acceptance of F4J charitable arm at the policy tables.” I personally met with most of the Conservative shadow cabinet in 2003 under the Fathers 4 Justice banner – they were incredibly receptive and I particularly recall the conversation I had with Michael Howard where his starting point was reform was pointless and his end point was – I’m going to do something about this – then he became leader of the party and put reform in the manifesto In the meantime I also helped put… Read more »
Glen now I am really really worried, I hope you are not going to fall into this ‘the only reason why men don’t get support is because they don’t organise for it bananas.’ Runways, yes, I can see how collective action changed things. Changing things for men however is nowhere near the same kind of project. The shared parenting project did not fail because men failed to work together. It failed because the feminist inspired, feminist funded, massively wealthy, massively in control of academia feminists were able to bring together a whispering campaign and then a research evidence campaign that… Read more »
Damn. This is the first time I’ve seen you here, but I hope you stick around. The information you are sharing here is incredibly important.
“Men didn’t fail Glen, women just organised better, got more money and have more power.” My experience Karen is that men’s movement has – so far -failed to mobilize and effectively address the problems men and boys face And in my experience for every problem – every inequality – faced by men and boys around the world there is a committed man or woman already helping to solve that problem – be it suicide or educational failure or parental alienation etc etc etc And if the actions of those brilliant people – and I include you in that Karen –… Read more »
I agree Glen that we need to keep seeking what unites us but, and this is a very big but, you cannot find anything on the ‘other’ side to unite with unless you are going to divest yourself of your masculinity and sign up to the ritual divesting of masculinity for all men and boys. As Nick points out in the post below, if ‘good men’ behaving in ways that are acceptable to feminists are those who set the parameters for the masculinity of our sons and grandsons then we are, effectively, waving goodbye to men as they have been… Read more »
Excellent parse Karen. I see the behaviors that have crept into the daily life of men and men are often treated as equals to their children and no longer a man to be revered and respected in the family. I too, firmly believe family is the primary center of influence in our lives. Then our children model our family behaviors, for better or worse..and the cycle continues. Here is link to a personal short story about a husband and his Honey Do lists and you can see the themes of how men are treated and forced to accept this ‘lower… Read more »
Always good to bring a smile to your face Nick In fairness, Fathers Direct pre-dated Fathers 4 Justice (F4J) by a good three or four years and were well established before F4J burst onto the scene – and the publicity we generated through F4J certainly boosted the Fatherhood Institute That was one of the weakness of the F4J approach – great at getting the issue of separated fathers talked about but then weak at making sure it influenced the key conversations that took place as a result of the publicity it generated – in fact, after a really successful first… Read more »
I wonder if there is some way to acknowledge the validity of individual experiences without using language so weighted down by non-shared and often unconscious assumptions about the nature of reality. I have my doubts, but when feminists talk of the need for male allies, I think to myself, well, we need allies, too, and I can get behind you if your goal is equality for every human, AND men need allies, as well, and not in the sense that we need help understanding our faults, but in the sense that we need help acheiving equality for boys and men… Read more »
I don’t think that’s going to happen Ben. They will be interested in their we’ll,alter him/feminism civilizes men thing and recruiting gynocentric men to help with their own agendas, but they won’t get on board beyond self interest from what I’ve seen, that’s five years of observation talking.
<And I’ve yet to find a Fathers’ Rights campaign that fights for equal parental leave rights for mums and dads when children are born with the same passion they fight or equal rights for dads when they separate. But I have seen those that fight for separated moms with that same passion for separated dads and turn away dads that were clearly wrong and were looking for special treatment because they were a dad. On the other side one men’s rights perspective is that women’s refusal to relinquish “ownership” and “control” of their children prevents separated dads from sharing their… Read more »
“Duncan is a decorated pro-feminist who was awarded an Order of the British Empire (OBE) by Queen Elizabeth II for his services to children as CEO of The Fatherhood Institute.” I had to smile at that one, Glen. One would have to acknowledge that Fathers Direct (now re-branded as the Fatherhood Institute) was extremely successful in stepping into the gap opened up by campaign groups like F4J in the 1990s. Successive governments have funded it heavily since then, to suggest that fathers’ concerns are taken seriously and FI associates itself with pro-mother reports written by feminists. At the tail end… Read more »
Always good to bring a smile to your face Nick In fairness, Fathers Direct pre-dated Fathers 4 Justice (F4J) by a good three or four years and were well established before F4J burst onto the scene – and the publicity we generated through F4J certainly boosted the Fatherhood Institute That was one of the weakness of the F4J approach – great at getting the issue of separated fathers talked about but then weak at making sure it influenced the key conversations that took place as a result of the publicity it generated – in fact, after a really successful first… Read more »
interesting….
The solution you are putting forward seems to be a old gender debate fallacy – if only individuals that don’t really have anything at all to with legislation could reach a consensus on the internet, then problems that are being caused by legislation and powerful lobby groups will be solved. The way to get shared parenting through and improve fathers rights is to support the groups that lobbying for it and defeat the groups that are lobbying against. it. Meeting someone on the street or the internet and wondering what they potential is has very little effect on legislation. Unless… Read more »
Hi Orchid I have been personally involved in changing legislation in the UK. I played a lead role in overturning legislation that permitted the construction of a new runway at one the world’s largest airports – London Heathrow – and I was instrumental in persuading the Conservative Party to commit to reforming family law in the UK to help more separated fathers I know what it takes to make shared parenting work – legally, culturally and personally – and and I’ve met very few people who support shared parenting at every stage of fatherhood – and I’ve met very few… Read more »
That analogy doesn’t allow for the fact that the anti-father/anti shared parenting lobby in the UK, Australia and US at least, and the lobby that successfully rolled back shared parenting in Australia on the strength of misandrist propaganda and advocacy research, is the feminist lobby.
Hi Orchid The Australian example is a really important to look at but so is Sweden Why are separated dads in pro-feminist Sweden three times more likely to share parenting than separated dads in the UK? Why did the shared parenting lobby in Australia gain favour with conservatives but not liberals? Are all conservatives pro father and pro shared parenting? Are all liberals pro-feminist and anti shared parenting? In my experience pro-feminists are more likely to promote shared parenting when parents are together – often in pursuit of the supposedly utopian “symmetrical family” where parenting and earning is shared 50:50… Read more »
In australia, liberals are the conservatives.
When you talk about Australia, I hope you will not be glossing over the fact that it was feminist lobbyists and womens groups that rolled back shared parenting on the strength of misandric fearmongering and biased, flimsey advocacy research.
Yes Orchid There is an important story to tell about Australia and lessons to be learnt I don’t accept “misandric fearmongering and biased, flimsey advocacy research” as a fact however – that is an opinion It’s really important to keep separating objective facts from subjective opinion if we want to become really effective at understanding what’s actually happening in the world of reality as opposed to how we personally interpret reality And I do get that one of the opinions about what happened in Australia is that – as you put it – feminist lobbyists and womens groups rolled back… Read more »
Not too sound too persistent but I wonder what you would say the facts are on those events?
The facts as I understand them from memory Danny are these:
In 2006 the right-wing Liberal Party (who are politically conservative) introduced shared parenting legislation
In 2010 the left-wing Labor Party (who are politically liberal) repealed that legislation
Some people say that the shared parenting system worked – some people say it didn’t
Those are the facts as I currently understand them
As I understand it, the usual argument was used by the feminist lobby – shared patenting exposes children to violence, and they back this up by pointing to cases where it was true, but predictably their reports never mentioned abuse by the mothers.
You don’t seem to want to talk about who the anti fathers lobbyists are, why is that?
Glen,
I’m not familiar with the situation in Australia. Are you saying that feminist lobbyists and women’s groups attempted to roll back shared parenting on the strength of misandric fear mongering and biased, flimsy advocacy research, and this had little or no impact, or are you saying that those things didn’t occur at all?
Hi Adrian It’s a fact that right-wing conservatives (The LIberal Party) introduced shared parenting legislation in around 2006 and then left-wing liberals (The Labor Party) repealed that legislation I’m also saying that if you want to get the full picture of what went on don’t rely purely on accounts that present phrases like “misandric fear mongering and biased, flimsy advocacy research” as fact – when that is in fact clearly a subjective opinion and not an objective fact Setting that aside – if we want to understand how to make shared parenting a reality (and understand what the political barriers… Read more »
What specifically might have helped keep the legislation on the books in Australia, assuming you thought the legislation originally passed was worth preserving?
Don’t know Adrian – it’s a good and important question to ask if we are committed to making shared parenting a reality for more dads and their families I suspect the system introduced in Australia wasn’t as flawed as its critics suggest I also suspect it wasn’t as flawless as its supporters would have us believe In my experience conservative social reforms often face a major obstacle – namely that the bodies that are charged with implementing them are often dominated by liberal thinkers – so you have this awkward tension that can hinder implementation I will be very interested… Read more »
That was wonderful, and I agree thanks for putting words to an idea that’s been bothering me.
Thanks DJ, I appreciate that feedback, best Glen
Dear Search Committee, I recently received my PhD in Law and Sociology at Methedrine University. Your announcement said you were looking for someone who could review the foundations of Western Law in light of their implications for feminist and GLBTQP practice. I think my attached, detailed syllabi will show that I’m prepared to present a thorough foundation in these areas. I admit they are a little lengthy, running to 75 plus pages each– but I think this level of detail shows how accountable I’m prepared to be in preparing students as future paraprofessionals in the technology of Lebensweltkontrol (the management… Read more »
Hi Archy Our ability to be successful at delivering solutions is heavily influenced by how we frame the problem We can frame problems in a way that empowers us and we can frame problems in a way that disempowers us As a rule I aim to only choose problems that empower me The way you’ve framed the problem – i.e. that it’s so popular to hate men as a group because of the patriarchy – doesn’t empower me I know from experience that we can make a difference for men and boys in the equalities world when we frame the… Read more »
Glen,
As a single father inhabiting a plethora of nontraditional gender roles, I find myself agreeing with nearly everything you write. The one problem I have is with the word “patriarchy.” I cringe every time I see the word in print or hear it used in casual conversation along with allusions–either subtle or overt–to the evangelical truth of feminist definition(s) that always infer a playing field tilted in the favor of men, no matter the sport.
Hey Ben Thanks for that feedback – I have a similar response to certain words favoured by different ideologies I’m really committed to creating new conversations about gender that are free from the ideological constraints of the past It’s a challenge to know how best to draw people into this conversation without using a kind of multi-lingual approach that touches on some of the existing gender language in use I’m really glad you pointed that out because I encourage people who think differently about men and boys to learn to talk to each other – and part of that learning… Read more »
I’m really committed to creating new conversations about gender that are free from the ideological constraints of the past. Sounds intersting. I’m really glad you pointed that out because I encourage people who think differently about men and boys to learn to talk to each other – and part of that learning is understanding how certain words – like Patriarchy – act as a barrier I think what makes those barriers so persistent is that people want to insist to the last that those words (and the way they use them) are the absolute representation of how things are and… Read more »
I think that’s why it’s really important for people to develop non-feminist conversations about gender – and I’m saying non-feminist here very purposefully So many people who are not feminist but interested in gender issues label themselves as anti-feminists which then frames all the conversations they have as being in opposition to feminism The only people who seem to think and talk about feminism as much as (or more than) feminists, are anti-feminists It’s much more interesting to me to look a gender and men’s issues without reference to feminism – that way I can make judgements based on my… Read more »
So many people who are not feminist but interested in gender issues label themselves as anti-feminists which then frames all the conversations they have as being in opposition to feminism I think that is the result in making contact with feminists and all they got in return was opposition. Its a revenge like reflection. “If they are against me then I’m against them.” It’s much more interesting to me to look a gender and men’s issues without reference to feminism Looking at the issues themselves (like what they are and where they come from) is easy. – that way I… Read more »
I think that is the result in making contact with feminists and all they got in return was opposition. Its a revenge like reflection. “If they are against me then I’m against them.” Frequent feminist insistence that you have to call yourself a feminist if you support equal rights can’t help. I can say for myself that I’ve dealt with enough feminists to know that a lot of them will come down from their moral high ground to dismiss your judgements on the grounds that they are based on your own experience. AKA it doesn’t happen often enough so its… Read more »
Ben, I understand your reaction to the big P word, it has been over used by feminism and used in ways that are not correct to justify the oppression of men. However, it originally described the anti-feminne position of the Judaic (christian, muslim, jewish) churches and was later used to describe the anti-feminine culture that was created by their dominance of society. In this regard it was oppressive to both men and women, though this oppression of men is not greatly recognised. In these forms it was a fairly robust description of a real problem. Second wave feminism then generalised… Read more »
Hey Adam, First off, thanks for the response. I think one of the reasons I have such a hard time with that word is that I grew up in a secular family. Where it seems applicable is when we talk about the experiences of people who’ve lived within the confines of the more hardline wings of Judeo Christian traditions. As you write: ” the ‘real’ patriarchy is still a major force in many parts of the world and, as glen suggests, we still need to recognise its existence even while we reject the feminist ‘corruption’ or its meaning.” I agree… Read more »
This is a really useful point – just because you don’t agree with the whole theory that feminism wraps around the word Patriarchy doesn’t mean it isn’t at times a useful term that can help us understand our own experience of being a man
I am at a loss as to how to get empathy from those whom feel oppressed by men as a group, for men. Any ideas?
Hey Archy You started off by framing the problem as: “it’s popular to hate men as a group because of patriarchy” Now you’re framing the problem as: “There’s a group of people who feel oppressed by men and have no empathy for men” These are personal subjective opinions not objective measurable facts If you want to empower yourself maybe reconsider how you are framing the problem and start with objective measurable facts – it’s always a good place to start It takes a lot of practice but learning to tell the difference between the objective facts and the subjective story… Read more »
Objective measurable facts. In my experience of looking at many many many articles on gender-issues and reading thousands of people, comments by all types, articles by all types, comments by others reinforcing the same opinion that there just aren’t many who seem to give a damn. Measurable facts, how many campaigns have you seen of anti-rape for instance which show a female perpetrator, male victim? Domestic violence suffers the same fate, yet we have hard evidence of significant levels of abuse yet a society that is largely quiet on these issues. Considering that there are people in positions who are… Read more »
Hey Archy Now you’re starting to frame the problem in an empowering way – in snippets anyway: “Men are going to have to make their own movements” YES! That’s exactly what men have to do How do we build a men’s movement that’s capable of solving the problems faced by men and boys the world over? That is a problem to empower you And this is the way I approach it Archy. I have a future vision that inspires me – that fills me with positive emotion – and I take an objective, measurable view right – without positive or… Read more »
How do we build a men’s movement that can address the issues we want to address Archy? Honestly I think the most crucial step is that said men’s movement has to be about helping men and boys for the sake of men and boys. All to often I see movements that are billed as being for men and boys but the majority of their efforts are actually about how to be better for girls and women. Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying that that is not necessary. I’m saying that we are getting ahead of ourselves and I think… Read more »
“Honestly I think the most crucial step is that said men’s movement has to be about helping men and boys for the sake of men and boys”
YES!
That’s exactly what a non-feminist men’s movement should be doing
Looking at the problems men and boys face and considering how – in addressing those problems – we can help men and boys to thrive and fulfill their potential
And not in opposition to women’s issues but in addition to women’s issues
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And not in opposition to women’s issues but in addition to women’s issues
I’m thinking maybe for now in separation from women’s issues. I think this because there seems to be too much “you have to prove yourselves to us.” mentality on all sides. Once the different sides get over this then maybe some unity could start happening?
Personally I don’t think we need a men’s movement, but a humanist movement that empowers men, and women. This pendulum has got to stop swinging and pushing it back the other way isn’t the answer. We need a new creative way forward, one that recognises the needs of both genders, addresses the oppression experienced by both genders and works collaboratively to solve the problems.
Does that involve challenging the feminist dogma? Yes, but not for the sake of it. We need to be careful to offer something more constructive in its place. A war will not bring peace.
I very strongly agree and disagree with you Adam The two things are compatible. I run a leadership programme in the UK and the first session – which I was running last night incidentally – is about the importance of creating an inclusive vision The reason many women’s initiatives don’t work is because they exclude men – take the violence against women and girls work – it’s vision is to end violence against women (by men) – which clearly excludes male victims of violence (and female victims of female violence) That campaign could have an inclusive vision – “to end… Read more »
What I find interesting about the “end violence against women” initiatives is they are being run by the people who were the recipients of violence in the first place. I don’t understand how someone who received the violence is ever going to convince the perpetrator to change. We don’t ask robbery victims to teach the robbers not to rob. I feel that if there is a desire to have *men* not be violent towards women (I’m not commenting on male on male or female on female violence, that deserves it’s own post) then it should be *men* carrying that message… Read more »
Archy, Glen has a point. One step at a time. You (and we) have already made changes to this global discussion and even this website. I queried men in an article several months ago “What do men want to talk about?” Many guys responded, so did the editors. They want to discuss issues that effect boys/men in homes, schools, marriage, fathers, husbands, and stories about men’s defining moments. Danny suggested improvements to the search function on the site, voila they have numbers up-top. I suggested they make marriage a main tab instead of a hidden category, viola they have a… Read more »
“Collectively, men said they didn’t want to talk about male issues in the framework of feminism”
Thanks Joan, all of that is really useful and for me the important point is that we do need to develop a non-feminist framework for discussing men and boys’ issues – that’s certainly my intention here
Best
Glen
Agreed. I think one thing that is being ignored here is the actual experiences that guys have had with feminism when those experiences are negative. We see plenty of material talking about men must embrace feminism and how feminism is good, and how feminism must be a part of the gender discourse. But we don’t see a lot of feminists actually asking WHY men (and women for that matter) aren’t very receptive to feminism. At most you usually get some presumption that said guys didn’t give feminism a chance or that they based their opinions on feminism on media, conservatives,… Read more »
Danny, even think about the umbrella imagery. Imagine a man trying to stand up straight underneath an umbrella that’s held really low. He’ll never see the possibilities or potential if he doesn’t get rid of the umbrella, nor will women ever see men’s potential. My experience with the feminist discourse is much like men’s experience here. It’s alienating if you don’t align exactly with their current argument. That’s why I didn’t align with them in the first place. Yet, I appreciate the great strides we have made in our civil rights…it’s not all bad. But feminists say they represent all… Read more »
You are following the feminist party line in everything you are saying. The first thing to do is: Stop complaining about the patriarchy and the evils of the past. Most men don’t want to destroy masculinity or reinvent it or any of that trendy stuff.
“Doesn’t empower me” Oh come on – you need to learn to laugh at yourself. No man really speaks that way. Women here love it, but this is a site for men.
Tim, you make a great point. Men don’t say “I’m empowered”, women do. That’s an outgrowth of feminist movement. Our vocabulary is shrouded under the shade of the feminist umbrella.
Men say “I’m aggressive”. Aggression is a male quality and male-power; even the origin of the word is uniquely masculine. Yet aggression is often misused and falsely linked to violence. An aggressive male is not automatically violent; he’s just aggressive and masculine.
You honestly expect equal rights commissions to care about discrimination against men when it’s so popular to hate men as a group because of patriarchy?