Marianne Cassidy thinks being a female nerd is trendy. Except when that’s all guys see in her.
I am a female nerd.
Apparently.
I cannot tell you when it became trendy to be a nerd, but it definitely happened at some point in the last ten years. I think it was probably around the same time that all the hip kids started wearing big thick-rimmed glasses (actual vision problems optional) and the pop culture value of retro videogames, superheroes and old school sci-fi suddenly sky-rocketed.
This was a strange experience for me. American TV shows taught me that nerds are bespectacled, calculator-toting individuals who stammer and have severe co-ordination issues. During my teenage years, I was stoically silent on the topic my nerdy pursuits – my Elfwood account, my Pokémon cards, my attempts to learn Elvish – knowing that to advertise would only draw ridicule. However, during my college career, I began slowly to realise that these interests carried currency among my peers. “Wow, you are such a nerd!” was no longer the social equivalent of being guillotined; it was a compliment. This was a fortunate turn of events for me personally, because it allowed me talk intensely about my niche interests for hours and hours without risking exile from all future parties.
At this point, it is probably useful to note that the niche interests that qualify as “nerdy” among my generation are fairly narrow. They are also, thanks to the high value of their social stock, no longer so niche as they once were. By and large, to be deemed a nerd in the trendiest sense of the word, you need an in-depth or encyclopaedic knowledge science-fiction or fantasy as it manifests itself in literature, games, films, television, comics, cartoons and online media, as well as having a wide base of general knowledge pertaining to science and technology. Knowing about Trollface also helps. Wood-whittling or world music could also be considered niche interests, but because they do not fall within the aforementioned realm of popular culture, they do not qualify as nerd-chic.
Gradually, I began to notice that the happy accident of my being a “complete nerd” was no longer merely socially acceptable; it was impressive, particularly among my male peers. Sometimes, it was more than impressive. Sometimes, it was a point of attraction. Often, it was the main point of attraction. I have been asked out on the strength of my comic book knowledge more than once. My ability to hold my own in a conversation about hard science-fiction has earned me more male attention than a push-up bra ever could. “I’ve never met a girl like you before,” a guy once told me, in response to an incoherent rant about the artistic merit of videogames. This is a real thing that someone said to me, even though it sounds like a nerdgasm, a trope that I thought only existed on TV. While I have never deliberately played the nerd card to impress a guy, I cannot deny that my particular set of interests have served me well in this respect. Especially since attempts at flirting are probably on par with those of a drunken Batman (lots of lurking and glaring, but not nearly as mysterious or intriguing as I think it is.)
There is a similar dynamic at play when men are impressed with women who know the basics of plumbing or engine maintenance. Videogames, comics and their ilk are traditionally male pastimes. Historically, girls who pursued them were considered weird and decidedly unfeminine. Now that these pastimes have transcended into the realm of cool, and since cool has little regard for gendered boundaries, it seems perfectly fine, and even desirable, for a girl to proudly display her nerd credentials. This is evident in the fact that the nerd girl has been cropping a lot recently in films and television, usually as a supporting character, as in Fanboys, but occasionally as the main protagonist as in Juno or New Girl. She comes in the form of a sexy tomboy, a sexy scientist, or a more traditional nerd in need of a sexy makeover. This quriky girl is accepted as one of the guys; she’s whip-smart, loves Star Wars/Lord of the Rings/Dungeons & Dragon, she swears and she makes “guy” jokes. Crucially, she is low maintenance; she never wants to go shopping or worries about her nails, and she makes no stressful demands of her male counterpart when it comes to silly things like anniversaries and personal hygiene. She is the polar opposite of the boring girlfriend that Sony was using to advertise the PS2 a while back.
In this, I have identified the root of my discomfort. Obviously, this idealised nerd girl does not actually exist, in the same way the gorgeous preppy bimbo and the bad-ass femme fatale do not exist. Being called a nerd makes me uncomfortable, and I have feeling that this is at least partially Hollywood’s fault. Sometimes I worry that when a guy hears me talking about something nerdy, he starts to tune out my actual opinions on the subject and instead concentrates on – as a friend of mine so succinctly put it – “Great! We can play Xbox and then we can bang! She’s perfect!” I worry that the nerdy girl has become a new stereotype of femininity, a new category of wish-fulfilment that has no bearing on reality. If this is the case, the advantages of being a female nerd are just as shallow and decorative as those created by a short skirt and smoky eye make-up.
It is currently cool to be a nerd, but being cool is even more fleeting than being physically beautiful; I do not want it to be all someone sees in me and I certainly do not want to found a relationship on it. I have no problem if a guy notices me because of my chest but if he can’t take his eyes off it after a few minutes of conversation, I am going to walk away. I think the same applies to female nerd syndrome.
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These suspicions are confirmed when I see that many men (and some women) think girls are allowed like nerdy things in the same way they are “allowed” to fix cars or play in metal bands. All well and good, as long as they are sexy while they do it and do not threaten to challenge or emasculate the men who dominate these fields. It’s awesome when a woman reads comics, as long as she doesn’t start complaining about the generally awful portrayal of female superheroes throughout the industry. It’s definitely hot when a girl wants to play Halo or Gears of War or any other formulaic testosterone-fuelled first-person shooter, but it’s kind of a turn-off when she wishes that videogame developers take a more unisex approach to design and marketing. Time and time again, I have seen women run into brick walls of male privilege when they raise important issues about gender and equality within their chosen nerdy field. The old who-cares-girls-don’t-even-play-videogames/read-comics/understand-spaceships argument is quick to raise its ugly and irrelevant head the minute a woman offers an opinion that highlights gender disparities. We are welcome in the boys club provide we acknowledge that is unquestionably male space and kicking up a fuss about it is actually not sexy, so you should just stop.
On a personal level, I know that being a nerd does not make me unique or exceptional. It is not a measure of my intelligence, nor does it tell a guy anything about me except that my dad is a science-fiction fanatic and I happened to grow up on a street where everyone had a game console. Being able to speak three languages or complete a triathlon is unique and exceptional. I can’t do either of those things but, for my part, I would prefer if a guy was impressed because I made him laugh or because I have intelligent opinions on important things, not because I can quote Penny Arcade at length or beat the Water Temple blindfolded.
I have been called a nerd many times, so maybe I am one. Nerd is often where I start if you get talking to me at a party, but it is most definitely not where I end. I am a theatre practitioner, a photographer, a reader, a runner, a drinker, a cat-lover, a nail-biter, a shower-singer, a writer and a lot of other stuff in between. It is currently cool to be a nerd, but being cool is even more fleeting than being physically beautiful; I do not want it to be all someone sees in me and I certainly do not want to found a relationship on it. I have no problem if a guy notices me because of my chest but if he can’t take his eyes off it after a few minutes of conversation, I am going to walk away. I think the same applies to female nerd syndrome.
Take your eyes off the All Your Bases shirt. I’m up here.
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Marianne – Well said. Nerd Girl is not exactly the new cool. What you say from inside you should define you… Much like all of us. So I hope.
I remember first learning that liking nerdy was unusual for girls at some point in junior high. It seemed really strange that it would be seen as usual because somehow my own family seemed to think I was pretty normal. From my own perspective liking flowers and dresses and makeup was in no way contradictory to my love of computer games and it was kind of unsettling to feel like I had to choose between these two parts of my identity. For instance, in games like the elder scrolls series I spent a great deal of my time collecting new… Read more »
“Take your eyes off the All Your Bases shirt. I’m up here.”
Excellent closing line. ^_^
It’s All Your Base, not All Your Bases, hence your argument is moot.
Something to consider from an artistic point of view, are there any elements intrinsic to the genre? Can these elements evolve? For example, the “B” movie genre usually relies on gratuitous female nudity and violence. Male nudity if present tends to not fall under the gratuitous kind. Can “B” movies evolve to incorporate gratuitous male nudity and stay true to the genre or if there is a market for it, develop a separate genre were this is the norm like “C” movies?
Well, if Buffy showed us anything, it’s that gratuitous female nudity and a lack of strong female characters are not intrinsic to nerd culture. 🙂
Sure, but there are also different sub types. For instance, “B” movies will have a sub group women in prison, slasher, nazi, biker, Troma even does a camp/horror style. Is Buffy a niche of nerd culture and a rather small one at that based on the complaints by the ladies or does it signal an evolution? I don’t find Sarah Michelle Gellar to be a stunning beauty, but she’s not unattractive and Eliza Dushku is hot. Hot women are the norm for scifi. The portrayal of the slayers might have been affected by the medium, broadcast TV. Look at Vampirella.… Read more »
Or the absolutely crap depiction of Samus in Other M…because omg how horrible. But yeah, mostly I was just saying that gratuitous nudity isn’t inherent in nerdy genres.
As a “female nerd”–someone who has worked both at Game Stop and a comic book store–I’ve been in many similar situations. I was hit on quite frequently at both workplaces and it was solely because I was a girl and I was nerdy. Sometimes I even went out with some of these guys but I was quickly disappointed when they realized that yes, I was actually a real flesh-and-blood girl instead of their fantasy perfect girl (like that comment about being able to play Xbox together and bang later). Often, my “nerd” status was exploited by guys as a way… Read more »
One could argue that Leisure Suit Larry and the Further Adventures of Seymour Butts objectified women, but that might have been the whole purpose of the games.
OK, no to bib boobs, no to nerdy…
Could some woman tell us poor men the full list of acceptable reasons for loving someone?
🙂
I actually think there might be a bit of miscommunication here. Guys like fixing things. Guys especially like fixing things for girls. But this article look more like a woman venting. There’s nothing to fix. It’s just life.
Are you sure about the big boobs thing?
You missed the point completely. There’s a world of difference between being loved and being fetishized.
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Not to be a Debbie downer but you essentially just said I didn’t exist 🙁 “This quriky girl is accepted as one of the guys; she’s whip-smart, loves Star Wars/Lord of the Rings/Dungeons & Dragon, she swears and she makes “guy” jokes. Crucially, she is low maintenance; she never wants to go shopping or worries about her nails, and she makes no stressful demands of her male counterpart when it comes to silly things like anniversaries and personal hygiene.” “Obviously, this idealised nerd girl does not actually exist.” ^ That’s really me! Minor changes about anniversaries and personal hygiene… but… Read more »
The anniversaries and personal hygiene weren’t minor. They were there to demonstrate that that is a fantasy serving the sole purpose of the daydreamer. Her lack of any and all standards for herself is what makes her a fantasy, not being one of the guys.
I’m low maintenance, too. But I actually do expect my lovers to give as well as receive. I imagine you do, too.
Usually most nerds are technically inclined in some form or another but you are an arts major.
I like nerdy girls but more so because they are likely to be critical thinkers rather than ramble off unsupported male privilege. It’s because men are the majority of the market just like women have more options for clothing and most advertising is directed at women…female privilege? Dumb girls are a huge turnoff.
Yes, I am an arts major. I don’t know what that has to do with anything.
The fashion industry most definitely privileges women and I’ve seen it work against men time and time again. My ex-boyfriend was really into 60s mod fashion, and he used to take a lot flak (from both women and men) for putting time and effort into his look. That’s definitely female privilege at play.
well written.
I have to admit i wish there were less unrealistic female choices for my characters in games. I am not into looking at barbie when i play a game. But I find the male toons ugly.
now maybe my BF will go to the kitchen and make me a sandwich….
Thanks Jill. I had considered that, but I don’t know very much about that particular subculture, or how prevalent it is. I wasn’t keen on bringing it up because somehow, coming from my brain, it sounded sexist. But I do have a number of female friends who connect around their knitting and decoupage and other interesting crafty things. And it’s true, when they talk about it, there appears to be no intention of impressing men or of re-affirming any kind of gender identity. Thanks for bringing that up.
It seems to me like you are being rejected from nerd groups not because you are a woman “intruding” into traditionally male spaces, but because you insist on going off-topic constantly in a way that might make the other members feel uncomfortable or guilty about their hobby. I was a huge roleplaying nerd in college, my group was nearly half women and no one rejected each other. Because everyone was there to pretend to be heroes and adventurers for a few hours of geeky escapism, not to listen to or give an impromptu lecture on gender politics. It is not… Read more »
No, I don’t insist on going off-topic. Why do you assume that? I would honestly like to know what part of this article suggests that I try to force my opinions on people, or insist on talking about gender politics when it’s not relevant? I write about gender politics. I talk about gender politics if a conversation naturally goes that way. I have never in my life “given an impromptu lecture on gender politics.” Again, why do you assume this is something I do or condone other people doing? Role-playing is awesome hobby. I think one of the reasons it’s… Read more »
I apologize then, since it appears I got the wrong impression from your article. Also looking back at what I wrote, it sounded a lot more aggressive than I intended. I do wish there were more female characters in video games that weren’t sexualized so much. And for every huge-breasted woman in stripper gear there is a huge-muscled man wielding an incredibly phallic sword or gun… Like you said, one great thing about pen and paper RPGs is that you can play around with stereotypes or completely ignore them as you see fit. One intriguing thing I observed in my… Read more »
Representations of gender in videogames are pretty problematic in general. I often wonder how of my male friends feel about constantly playing as hulking, grunting soldiers or massive Conan-style warriors. I think the key point is that the men are designed to be impossibly muscular bastions of traditional masculinity because that’s what the designers think men want, and the women are over-sexualized and objectified because that’s ALSO what the designers think men want. Which, if you think about it like that, is actually pretty insulting to men. There have been some really excellent and commercially successful videogames (Heavy Rain and… Read more »
I agree about representations of gender in videogames. I am not a gamer, so I have a pretty objective view that is based on what friends have shown me, and it scares me actually. 😀 The other thing I find pretty sad is that in the virtual world Second Life, which is not a game per se but you can create literally any character you want, with any body type or clothing style you want, probably 90% of the men choose to be the hulking warrior-looking dude and nearly the same percentage of women (there are actually a lot of… Read more »
I find it amazing that you believe you can throw around numbers like this, and comparisons, as if you have actual data. In fact, until you do some kind of study, you have no way of knowing how many men roleplay as women and women roleplay as men, and who the people are who make these choices of avatar and why they do it. For all you know, 76% of the characters on Second Life are played by 40 people, and 64% of them are male, and 50% of them choose avatars that they consider ironic–such as muscular men and… Read more »
I don’t pretend to have actual numbers, which is why I qualified my statements with things like “probably.” It does not amount to a lie to give anecdotal evidence based on quite a lot of time spent in Second Life, and talking to other people who’ve spent lots of time in Second Life. It’s an educated guess, and I believe I made that clear. I also gave reasons for why I make the assumptions that I do (e.g. that there are more men roleplaying as women than the reverse, because there are more “employment opportunities.”) You can disagree with my… Read more »
Actually, claiming to have approximate statistics does amount to lying.
I didn’t claim they were statistics – they were *guessing* based on my personal experience and that of other frequent Second Lifers I’ve spoken to.
Suit yourself if you want to claim it’s “lying” but I don’t understand the point of that. All it does is prove you’re not empathetic enough to try to discern a person’s meaning rather than taking every word literally. Why don’t you comment on your own experience if you have it? Do you think that Second Life helps more people to break out of stereotypes, or to perpetuate them?
I have absolutely no way of knowing whether Second Life helps people break out of stereotypes or perpetuates them, because: 1) Aside from having tested it out, I do not play (or “live”) Second Life. 2) There is no way of knowing who sits behind the avatars in Second Life. The key here is item (2), as I tried to make clear. I’m not somehow lacking empathy, nor do I misunderstand your meaning. I understand your meaning perfectly. But unfortunately, I think that maybe sorta kinda almost POTENTIALLY true statements like your own go a long way toward distorting the… Read more »
Sorry Michael, but there’s an awful lot of ground between having empirical data and just making shit up (or misattributing it). People can make well considered generalizations, and they can be meaningful (especially in the absence of empirical data, which as far as I know we don’t have much of yet). People’s personal experiences are not meaningless or lies.
LF:
I agree that there is a substantial list of games that are troubling.
However, as I mentioned up-thread the games with the most gratuitous sexual imagery typically have nothing to do with nerds.
Marriane says: “but it’s interesting that even in a pen-and-paper RPG where the options are completely open, you’ve never witnessed a guy play his male character into a gay relationship.” Actually, it’s not a mystery at all. It’s called FANTASY rpg for a reason. The men are playing out their fantasy of being a sword (or spell) wielding hero. Since they are not gay, they have no interest in playing a gay hero. To suggest this is somehow lacking on their part isn’t fair. Can I make the same pronouncement that you are not interested in black studies? To just… Read more »
“To suggest this is somehow lacking on their part isn’t fair.” I didn’t suggest it was lacking, I said it was interesting. Menelas pointed out that though he knows people who like to play as a different genders (even though they presumably have no desire to change their actual gender), he doesn’t know anyone who plays romantic relationships contrary to their sexuality. I think it’s interesting that players will experiment with their gender as part of their fantasy, but not with their sexuality and I wonder what that’s indicative of. You can say I have no interest in black studies… Read more »
I know plenty of people who’ll roleplay different sexualities on MMPRPGs, where they are anonymous. In fact, this has become a bit of a stereotype, hasn’t it?
Have to comment on the DA2 thing: There have been several other games in which there are optional homosexual relationship subplots to go alongside the optional heterosexual relationship subplots that no one bats an eye to. The first Dragon Age game was actually a decent example of this well done. The issue with Dragon Age 2, was more about this one particular character both pressing the issue, and there not being any “platonic” option whatsoever. You literally had a choice of romance or rivalry, and the option to go down the romance line wasn’t too obvious that that was where… Read more »
True, bad writing is bad and your issues with DA2 seem fairly legitimate. However, your issues with the writing aren’t the issues most players seem to have with that game (or certainly are not how they chose to explain them.) Most of them took the “OMG GROSS GAYNESS, WHY ARE THERE GAYS WHEN ALL GAMERS ARE STRAIGHT MALES, UGH, STOP CATERING TO MINORITIES, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD” line of reasoning. I don’t know why DA2 specifically irked so many straight male gamers, but it did and their issues wasn’t bad writing, it was homophobia, pure and simple. I’m willing to… Read more »
Not a gamer here, more nerdwife than nerd-girl, but I’d just like to point out that what is assumed as female eye-candy might not be. Most of my female friends don’t go for the muscle-bound body-builder types, more are attracted to the guy-next-door type – average build, decent face. I have seen studies too that back this up as more general, not unique to my self-selected social circles.
I was reading an article discussing The Further Adventures of Seymour Butts, it’s a porn type game where guys try to sleep with women and if you’re successful, you get to view the sex scene. The developers were asked about creating games for women and they replied that they would because they felt that there was a market for it, but that there weren’t many female developers out there and that the guys couldn’t determine what women wanted. Just because women reject it, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t meant to be eye candy. It’s just what guys think women want.
I think it would be interesting to have a serious discussion about how many “spaces” men and women can turn to in order to escape the difficulties of our hyper-sexualized culture. Is male nerd culture a successful alternative to sexualized, macho car/sport/bro culture? For male nerds who mostly hang out with other male nerds, is it successful in that regard? That is, do those guys escape some of the cultural mandates associated with your car/sport/bro culture? (I’m not sure it does for all; but for some, I KNOW it does.) And is there a corresponding subculture that is “stereotypically female,”… Read more »
There are a lot of women who quietly opt out of the obsessive “Sex and the City”/Cosmo/materialistic female culture by pursuing other interests. Arts and crafts (quilting, knitting, etc.) is one area where I think women get together in a female space and do their own thing with absolutely no concern about what men think.
And, btw, those artsy-crafty places are invisible to most men because there is nothing about them that is designed to attract male attention. Rather they are places where women of all ages gather to enjoy the camaraderie of creating beautiful (non-sexual) things with their own hands. Visit a yarn shop for example or check out the knitters social network, Ravelry.com
Oops–this was meant to be a reply to Jill. Sorry all.
Thanks Jill. I had considered that, but I don’t know very much about that particular subculture, or how prevalent it is. I wasn’t keen on bringing it up because somehow, coming from my brain, it sounded sexist. But I do have a number of female friends who connect around their knitting and decoupage and other interesting crafty things. And it’s true, when they talk about it, there appears to be no intention of impressing men or of re-affirming any kind of gender identity. Thanks for bringing that up.
Hmm… what would you consider the equivalent male space where men can ‘do their own thing’ with absolutely no concern about what women think?
@Copyleft, I think there are a lot of spaces where men try to separate themselves from women, starting with the tree house with the “no girls” sign. 🙂 I would agree with other comments that many guys do view “nerd culture” as a male space where women don’t belong, although personally I don’t think that alone is the explanation for the hostility that Marianne has observed when issues like sexism in video games is discussed. For one, video games are popular with ALL guys, not just “nerds.” So, talking about it in terms of “nerd culture” is a bit misleading.… Read more »
Sorry, *anime.
Btw, it’s not my opinion that “nerds” can’t be attractive, that’s just what my friend said. He’s one of those guys whom has suffered a lifetime of social exclusion as a result of poor social skills and his idiosyncratic interests.
Woah, Jill. Now you’re being a little ambitious in your generalizations and certainly biased. “I think there are a lot of spaces where men try to separate themselves from women, starting with the tree house with the ‘no girls’ sign.” You can’t tell me that little girls don’t do exactly the same thing. That is NOT somehow “male” behavior. In fact, having grown up in a house with two sisters, I can say that little girls are perfectly capable of trashing on a younger boy and excluding him because “girlz rule, boyz drool!” And your idea that “video games are… Read more »
@Michael Russell P., well, I’m sorry that my admittedly rather rambling remarks got your knickers in such a twist. I am certainly not implying that ONLY men have their own spaces. So do women (and girls), obviously. I was actually responding to Copyleft’s comment to me where he asked me “what would you consider the equivalent male space where men can ‘do their own thing’ with absolutely no concern about what women think?” So I said I think men have a lot of those spaces, which is true, starting in childhood. I’m not sure why that offends you. Also, I… Read more »
The reason I asked, Jill, was because you cited the notion of a ‘women-only space’ with approval. But then when I asked what you considered an equivalent “men-only space,” you replied with apparent DISapproval.
Why is that?
I think you misread my tone, or I didn’t express myself well. (I tried to use a smiley to show I was being light! 🙂 ) Anyway, I don’t disapprove of men having their own spaces, I think both sexes like to have their own spaces. That’s normal and there is nothing wrong with it. It gets complicated with something like a hobby or interest, like video games, where everyone is entitled to take up that hobby and make it their space too. But I understand the inclination people have to say, “hey, this is ours, back off.”
Seriously? Men have all sorts of their own “spaces.” They get together and have LAN parties, BBQs, play softball or golf, go fishing, watch sports, all sorts of stuff. Married guys often have their “man cave” in the den/basement, a workshop in the garage, etc. They certainly aren’t doing those things to impress women, and that’s fine.
Mmm yeah… but I think that in a lot of ways those things are very, you know, macho. Maybe not LAN parties. But the rest of it is pretty much dictated by the cultural desire to see men act like men, even if the culture also likes to make fun of those things. (I hate the term “man cave”).
While knitting and crafting and baking cupcakes is definitely not traditionally-feminine!
Your ability to rationalize away any idea that makes you uncomfortable is truly amazing.
Good question Michael P. I don’t actually think nerd culture takes anyone out of the hype-sexualized culture AT ALL. Quite the opposite actually – videogames are incredibly misogynist and promote all sorts of stereotypes for men and women. And I say this as a female rock musician – people presume that’s a very misogynist environment, but to me it seems like nothing compared to the videogame world. I think that musicians, writers, artists etc. tend to be able to get past gender stereotypes pretty well actually – just as they were the first to overcome racial barriers, homophobia and so… Read more »
Hey LF: I’ll agree that most of the mainstream games aren’t the greatest in terms of sexualized imagery or gender stereotypes (however, I would argue that even kids have the ability to compartmentalize. Just because bugs bunny bamm’s daffy duck w/a mallet doesn’t mean your 4y/o will attack you with a hammer). But, you are incorrect when you draw the conclusion that this has anything to do with nerd-spheres. Most mainstream games cater to the lowest common denominator. However, you will never see a nerd playing hours upon hours of grand theft auto. In my experience, just as others have… Read more »
Sorry I missed your reply until now… actually my thoughts have come from knowing a group of very hardcore gamer nerds, including some who have doctorates in the subject (crazy as that may sound). Although they do have a lot of very scathing things to say about the mainstream game industry, in truth a good deal of the fantasy type RPGs have a lot of the same crappy stereotypes, and some of my nerd friends have been somewhat castigated for saying so. As for the board games, civilization games, father/son involvement and all the rest, I’m all good with that… Read more »
I kind of disagree here. I know a few guys who love computers and do computers all day, and a lot of times at end of the day they go to a local “coffee pub” and play whatever goofy tabletop game (I’ve tried and can’t get into them) and have a few drinks. One of them has a girlfriend, actually, who sometimes shows up… so in many ways these are “normal” members of society. But to me it looks like they’re usually insulated from the need to have stereotyped male-female sex-overconcerned interactions. Even amongst your example of video-gamers: there may… Read more »
Dammit, now I’m confused. Here in Seattle recently was the first ever(?) Geek Girl Con, a sci-fi pop culture convention dedicated to providing a female-centered event for mavens of comic books, science fiction, anime, etc. Its producers were trying to emphasize that girls are not just the clueless girlfriends of male geeks but have their own legitimate status in geekdom. (I know geek and nerd are not the same thing, but work with me here.) They were trying to raise awareness that women can be geeks in their own right. But, now I see there’s already a reductionist stereotype about… Read more »
Sorry about saying dammit. I meant to say “frak it.”
I think you have a misunderstanding, here. It’s pretty well expressed in your seventh paragraph, where you say some untrue things (I have seen many a female nerd behave against the traditional sexy grain) and, overall, try to get out that “when I hang out with my nerd guy friends, they don’t like to talk about women things.” (That’s “Time and time again, I have seen women run into brick walls of male privilege when they raise important issues about gender and equality within their chosen nerdy field.”) Your misunderstanding is that you think a guy who likes talking about… Read more »
Excellent point, Michael. When I go see a superhero movie, I’m not interested in my friend’s discussion of the director’s lighting and camera-angle choices. But that’s not privilege, it’s a difference in interests. She wants to explore the “behind the scenes” stuff about the making of the movie, and I don’t; I want to talk about the casting, and she doesn’t. So we talk about the storyline and characters instead.
Where’s the privilege? Where’s the brick wall?
It’s funny you ask where the privilege is, Copyleft. Part of me wanted to say that it might be considered an expression of a different sort of privilege for one to believe that one can rightly waltz into a subculture and expect members of that culture to be as interested in one’s own concerns as they are in their usual cultural fodder–and, if they aren’t, that one can rightly denounce them to the world, in writing. But that part of me tends to go further than the rest of me can comfortably assert. So take that with a grain of… Read more »
Disinterest is not the problem. Well, it’s a problem in the sense that most people would like to generate more interest in issues they feel are important, but it’s certainly not the brick wall. I never said it was. Everyone is 100% entitled not to give a flying fuck about things that don’t interest them. The brick wall emerges when, for example, a writer posts a rant on a dedicated feminist/pop culture website about the new Duke Nukem game, because it has a level that focuses on girls getting raped and impregnated by giant alien penis things, and that can… Read more »
” If these men genuinely had no interest in women’s issues, they would not be reading an article on feministfatale.com, let alone commenting on it.” And yet that is not what you appeared to be talking about in this article. You appeared to be complaining about the reaction of ALL male nerds to your raising of gender issues in their presence. If your comment is a good representation of your true intentions, then what you REALLY want to be complaining about, in this case, is MALE NERDS entering the GENDER DISCUSSION. Not FEMALE NERDS entering the NERD DISCUSSION with GENDER… Read more »
And by all means, if there is sufficient demand, we should be seeing video games, card games, comics, etc. marketed to women. And I think we do see those things, since demand creates the market. But let’s please not turn this into a Title IX-esque situation, where we suggest that game makers and so forth should market equally to nerdudes and nerdettes, with the result being poorly-selling games designed for nerdettes and a dearth of games, all super-expensive, for nerdudes. Go on voicing your opinion that you would like to see x-female-nerd-targeted product and y-female-nerdsubject-idea. Garner support. But don’t suggest… Read more »
(Again, if you want to talk about the situation of male nerds going to feminist or female-nerd blogs to denigrate the position of the female nerd, that is a totally separate issue.)
So in a discussion of a game that’s generally about violence against, one level that depicts violence against women is a problem.
Sounds like female privilege to me.
edit *generally about violence against men
Wow. So I and other women who grew up as geeks just “waltzed” into the subculture? I must have done that before I turned 4 because I don’t recall doing it after. I’m so sorry that on a rare occasion a fellow nerd happens to mention she would like a female character who isn’t wearing little to no clothing. You should tell my Dad that one too. How dare he want strong female models for his daughter that aren’t sex objects? How dare my parents introduce me to Star Wars and more in hopes that I dream big and chase… Read more »
What is the response you’re fishing for when you are “complaining about the generally awful portrayal of female superheroes throughout the industry”, “wishes that videogame developers take a more unisex approach to design and marketing”, “raise important issues about gender and equality”? I remember losing a friend because I said something bad about the final fantasy movie, turns out he liked it alot. Thats life, its not a conspiracy.
Think we dont notice the eye candy drizzled into games for the lady types? Maybe we just know better than to jump into angry rants about all the boners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHJSINPuOBU
I think it’s important to distinguish between real nerds and today’s internet-connected dork subcultures. Okay, my nomenclature is somewhat arbitrary…A real nerd doesn’t know when to stop talking about his pet interest (military history, tube amplifiers, woodworking tools, etc.) End result: he’s lonely and has self-esteem problems. It’s not a glamorous or cool situation. Never mind that he’s still a good person. A dork has sufficient social skills to navigate into various interest-centered subcultures (Goth rock, online video games, creative anachronism stuff, etc) and basically join a new in-crowd. A dork SAYS he/she was a total outcast in high school.… Read more »
I agree and I think that this whole concept of geekiness becoming “cool” is foreign to true geeks. A true geek has no choice about his, or her, geekiness. There are truly geeky women and they suffer as much social rejection and heartbreak as male geeks. It is one thing to be an attractive, thin, socially aware 22-year-old woman who loves comic books. Good for you! But you have options. You are a regular person who has adopted some trappings of geekdom. You are like the hip guy with nerd glasses. Real nerds don’t KNOW that their glasses are unstylish!… Read more »
As one female nerd to another: Props on pointing out the fallacy of “She’s cool ’cause SHE’S not like the OTHER girls with their dumb demands and opinions” point.
Also, in the name of everything holy, don’t read the comments. Really, really, really don’t read the comments.
Hay she opened up a can of worms…
Right. Don’t get involved in the discussion. Say what you want and run away.
That serves… what purpose?
Why not read the comments? What possible reason could there be to not read them?
If they’re wrong then you would need to read them in the first place to ascertain this and then respond to them, isn’t that the point of the exercise?
Why bury your head in the sand?
@ Arlette
“As one female nerd to another: Props on pointing out the fallacy of “She’s cool ’cause SHE’S not like the OTHER girls with their dumb demands and opinions” point.
Also, in the name of everything holy, don’t read the comments. Really, really, really don’t read the comments.”
Aren’t you doing to others what you claim to be wrong? That is denying others an opinion.
Time and time again, I have seen women run into brick walls of male privilege when they raise important issues about gender and equality within their chosen nerdy field. It is not male privilege; it is simply them protecting their space and their interests. You would not like someone to come into your space and start politicizing every little detail that comes to mind. How long would it take before you lost it if a person who joined a Lord of the Rings fan club constantly talked about the lack of non-white in Middle Earth? How long would it take before you lost it… Read more »
Wow. It sounds like you must have really run into some real feminazis at some point, or have had some issues with women at some point. All the feminist geek friends I have don’t do that. Because both examples you brought up (non-white elves would be cool!) seem to have extremely valid points *I* would like to hold as conversation (but then I consider myself an equalist). It seems like you’re thinking of a nonfictional situation where the only thing a girl spews out of her mouth from the second she walks into a conversation about video games is how… Read more »
Like I said before, Geek Culture for Men is an escapism. I remember growing up in New York’s early 1990’s and living through the Crack epidemic with nothing but Peter Parker & Charles Xavier as my moral back bone. I would spend every dollar fifty I had for bus fair and walk 4 miles a day with my Comic book salvation in my hand. Do you think I’m going to listen to someone tear down something that meant so much to me? You can’t remove the sense of ownership Men have towards scifi, comic Books and video games. (note: Hogwarts… Read more »
I don’t understand why geek culture is escapism for just men? It isn’t a closeted society where you have to undergo entrance exams to participate. If women enjoy geek culture, that is their prerogative, just as much as it would be to criticize things within it that they find offensive, sexist, what have you. If you don’t want to listen to someone “attack” what you like, that is your choice, but it is also a woman’s choice to voice her opinion. Men have a sense of ownership over EVERYTHING… so because of that, women can’t have opinions about anything that… Read more »
Maybe I’m being a chauvinist. Maybe it’s an inability to see women as underdogs. I’d even go so far as to say that some Men think Women are slumming the Geek culture for the attention. In some regards this all might be a nonissue. Modern Sifi is evolving and expanding past any specific gender preference. Video games are moving towards character driven narratives in hopes of maximizing intellectual properties for Movie distribution and Novels are the New Hollywood starting point. Gender progress is on the move.. This leaves comic books as the last true hideout for Male hereto-normality. I don’t care if… Read more »
@ Videogamecat One complaint that feminists have had with MRAs is that MRAs complain that existing DV shelters and programs don’t service the needs of male victims of DV. They say that if men wanted shelters for men they should build them as women took the lead in building shelters for women. One big difference is that many DV programs have federal funding so that they can’t discriminate at least theoretically. We know that many shelters don’t service men, but is the government really going to cut off their funding? If we were to use the same argument, we would… Read more »
This is an interesting point, John Anderson, and the fact is that many, many women in independent spheres are producing comics and videogames for and about women. However, these industries are still largely dominated by men and cater to men, and many women find it very difficult to break into the mainstream. So if I’m a fan of fighting games for example and I really want to play the new Tekken online, I’m going to have to put up with a certain amount of misogyny. In a recent Capcom-sponsored Tekken tournament, a prominent member of the fighting game community claimed… Read more »
Why are you as interesting as a bucket of water and as deep as the goldfish in it? The interwebz is crawling with boring wannabes and predictable nobodies like you. Keep trying Marianne.
It sounds like you must have really run into some real feminazis at some point, or have had some issues with women at some point. All the feminist geek friends I have don’t do that. Because both examples you brought up (non-white elves would be cool!) seem to have extremely valid points *I* would like to hold as conversation (but then I consider myself an equalist). It is not whether the points are valid, but whether a person keeps bringing them up in every discussion, no matter what the discussion is about. When I read stuff written by feminists geeks,… Read more »
Your use of the phrase “male privilege” makes you one of the femnazis. Men have so few spaces to themselves, without women wanting to feminise everything they do. I’m not surprised that women who want to impose their feminist dogma on geek groups are ostracized. Geekdom isn’t about women, it also isn’t about men although it seems to be a space men prefer in greater numbers than women. It is primarily about people pursuing a common, usually narrow, interest with enthusiasm. Feminist social engineering doesn’t contribute anything positive to this sort of endeavour.
As well-written and thoughtful as this column is, I find myself agreeing with some of the commenters above that this is really sort of a “non-problem,” or at least not a problem that’s being examined from the right perspective. Of course no one wants to be objectified, to be reduced to one or two details in a whole panoply of qualities that makes us complex, interesting and hopefully attractive beings. But (1) is it really a huge demoralizing quandary when someone detects that you share something in common with them and wants to know more about you? And (2) are… Read more »
Hi Todd! Thanks for this comment, it’s really well thought-out and I’m going to try to address all the point you make as best I can. Fundamentally, I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. Firstly, I completely agree this is a non-problem. In fact, I think I’ve failed as a writer in some respect here, because I really was not trying to frame my thoughts as a “problem,” nor did I intend to be come-off as complaining or whining. Like I said, being a nerd has served me well in a social context, and particularly when it comes to talking… Read more »
First of all, thanks for an equally thoughtful reply. I am certainly aware of how horrible commenters can be, or even when they aren’t, how their comments can erode your patience and even sometimes intellect, and it’s always good to have a constructive conversation about, well, any subject. In terms of the piece, I didn’t mean to suggest that the piece was just or “just” a complaint – I think it’s a well-articulated and well-mounted argument against stereotyping even characteristics that a lot of people both find flattering to them and attractive to others. Ultimately, I think my main point… Read more »
Marianne Thank you for the article, regarding the cliche’s you mentioned, I can’t help but feeling that this is more in the nature of human communication and storytelling than sexism against women. TV (and literature in general) typically consists of a few core characters and a whole lot of cardboard cut out background pices whom the audiance can easily identify, understand and predict, but even the central characters are “dressed” with cliches allowing the audiance to grasp them from the get go, rather than spend an entire episode detailing their motivations and desires. I can see how this reinforces stereotypes… Read more »
Hello Marianne, My name is Lindsay Spaulding and I am currently casting King of the Nerds, a new show celebrating geeks and nerds of all kinds. The show is Competition based, designed to showcase the passions and knowledge of men and women between the ages of 18 and 30, as they compete to win a huge grand prize! King of the Nerds is an opportunity for self proclaimed nerds to put their intellect and resume out there in front of millions. The show will be hosted by the original UBER NERDS from “Revenge of the Nerds”! We are looking for… Read more »
Todd, I’m going to have to disagree with you on some of the points. Not because I think you’re wrong, but because I think we’re on different pages. There is a vast difference between being excited to share your interests with another person– many solid relationships are based on this– and what is being brought up in this article. I think in this case, we’re not talking about the guys that enjoy going to Comic Con with their girlfriend. We’re not talking about the guys who love their girlfriends, in *addition* to their passion for “nerd” stuff. We’re talking about… Read more »
This is not intended as an attack on the original post, as I do on the whole agree with it, but rather as an honest question to delve into the nuances of this issue: What is the difference between a guy being attracted to a girl “because she is a nerd” and a guy being attracted to a girl because intelligence is sexy, and nerdism is generally associated with intellect? My girlfriend is brilliant, and that is one of the reasons I love her, and I frequently think of her as a nerd. I guess the question is really, at… Read more »
I think what she was talking about wasn’t her relationship with the personal qualities of “female” and “nerd” but rather they complete stereotype of “female nerd”. The stereotype has a full set of specific qualities and constitutes a full fictional character. Inevitably any actual female nerd is going to be different from the female nerd stereotype the people they meed have in their head. Sometimes people are really attached to their stereotypes and are unsettled when you don’t meet their expectations.
So the way I read this is that you are saying that the issue is less one of gender roles and more one of creating irrational and incomplete models and expecting romantic/sexual partners to live up to them? I could get behind that, I think it’s a problem people have in lots of settings, not just relationships.
Yes! This is definitely the underlying point of this article, though you’ve just articulated way better in a couple of lines. All your questions are relevant, and I grappled with most of them while writing this article. I came to the unhelpful conclusion that all the lines are blurry and that it really sort of goes on a case by case basis, of what makes you uncomfortable vs. what doesn’t. Also, Jill’s comment pretty much nails it. Objectification is an inevitability, it exists, we all do it, and a certain amount of it is perfectly natural and healthy. I think… Read more »
You look like a someone from Ballinasloe. You’ve got that twisted culchie nose and rotten Irish teeth and you look like you need a good wash.
The concept of objectification comes from psychoanalytic theory. The idea is that when we are interacting with other people, we are actually interacting with an “object” we have created in our mind that reflects our own personal needs, expectations and experiences. In that sense, everyone else is an “object” to everyone else. It is inevitable. If you treat someone as a “sex object” that means you only see them as a projection of your sexual needs. That makes it difficult for you to see them as a fully real human being separate from your own needs. I suppose you can… Read more »
Really well said. Shame it got so much hostile criticism. On a not-completely-unrelated note, here’s a slight quibble with one bit. “This quirky girl is accepted as one of the guys; she’s whip-smart, loves Star Wars/Lord of the Rings/Dungeons & Dragon, she swears and she makes “guy” jokes. Crucially, she is low maintenance; she never wants to go shopping or worries about her nails, and she makes no stressful demands of her male counterpart when it comes to silly things like anniversaries and personal hygiene.” “Obviously, this idealised nerd girl does not actually exist,…” Actually, she kind of does exist…well,… Read more »
I know you’re not saying that if a girl has these qualifiers she HAS to be a lesbian, but my husband would be terribly disappointed if you did 🙂
It’s not really about being a nerd. It’s about objectification, or labeling, or whatever you want to call it. We all want to be seen and respected for who we are, not for some label somebody else has placed onto us. Even though I self-identify as a male geek, I’m not comfortable if the only reason a woman is attracted to me is because I’m a geek. I’d rather she think I’m a good guy, with nice qualities, and a unique personality, topped off with different hobbies. Bottom line: I don’t want attention because I’m a geek, I want attention… Read more »