Luke Davis responds to those men claiming not all men are like the Californian Shooter Elliot Rodger.
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You, yes the person standing by saying I’m not like that, not all men are like that. I want to explain why this is truly pathetic. I’m a man, so this isn’t even about gender, it is about empathy and creating a world we would all like to live in. I was bullied as a kid and my aim here is to point out how meaningless that statement and statements similar to it are because these statements shut out what victims are really asking for—help.
Imagine walking into a male only classroom and being tripped as you enter for the sole purpose of making the class laugh. This isn’t an extreme example of bullying but one I think most people can relate to, most of us have been the butt of someone’s joke. Now you’re lying face down on the carpet and you can hear most of the class laughing. You’re embarrassed, hurt and humiliated. So let me show you how pointless the statement “Not all men are …” is.
“Not all men are … bullies.” False, there was only one bully doing the tripping, but there was not one single dissenting voice in this class room, everyone was either laughing or silent. The aim of tripping you was humiliation. So when an entire class either laughs or stays silent that humiliation has been achieved. All men in that classroom humiliated you because you can’t hear those who are silent.
“Not all men … laughed.” False. Half the class laughed true, but how well can you identify those who didn’t laugh while you are lying face down on the floor. You are hurt and humiliated down there and you can’t hear those who are silent, only those who laugh. As far as you can tell the whole class is laughing. When those men in the class sit there and remain silent their silence isn’t really that much different from laughter because you can’t hear silence.
“Not all men … approved of the bullying.” False. At what point while you are lying on that floor do you hear a voice of disapproval? A voice saying that tripping someone is wrong. That’s right, you only hear laughter. Silence is not disapproval.
“Not all men … are bad and you shouldn’t be afraid of them” False. Fear is a funny thing, when you get tripped often enough walking into that room you learn to fear the act of walking through that door. There aren’t any dissenting voices to someone tripping you when you walk in, only laughter and humiliation. There are NO people in that room that you trust because there is no way for you to differentiate between those who laugh and those who are silent. So when you approach that classroom you cannot tell who you should or shouldn’t be afraid of, everyone is a possible antagonist.
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So if you want to be a man that woman don’t lump into the “All men are bastards” category because “Not All Men Are Bastards” then this is what you need to do to leave that category.
“I’m a man because … I help those who are hurt and humiliated get up and dust themselves off”
“I’m a man because … I speak up against circumstances that make others afraid, hurt or humiliate them.”
“I’m a man because … I actively call out those who join in laughing or agreeing with the actions of others that make others afraid, hurt or humiliated.”
“I’m a man because … I actively create an environment where people can come because they won’t be afraid, hurt or humiliated.”
Go out and help create the “All men are awesome” category where douche-bags and players belong in the “Not All Men are awesome” category, surely it’s worth the effort.
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Photo credit: (altered) Flickr/Davi Ozolin
“Way to gaslight Josh. Logical people discuss topics without the aid of slurs. When you degenerate the exact people you are talking to, that is a very affective way to shut the conversation down. And that has nothing to do with “the truth”.” I grant bitch is not a nice term. I used it to create a sense of what the author of this article had said in a comment. If the use of the word offends you so much that can’t longer have a function conversation then I have no idea how you deal with every day life. Also… Read more »
“It’s really starting to get to the point that MAYBE, these hashtags should be edited to YesAllWomenIKnow and NotAllMenIKnow, because as much as we all are giving Personal Acounts and Experiences that are Opposite of the Status Quo, NOBODY on either side believes it or cares.” @ J. Crawford – thanks; I can see your frustration in this. I’ve been pondering all of this (and I could be wrong, of course), but just thinking out loud a bit here: I think part of it has to do with empathy, and part of it has to do with expectations & boundaries… Read more »
Thanks Mostly_123 One of the things as a writer you have to do is imagine yourself in another’s shoes. It is a hard skill to do because you don’t always have the experiences to shift across to someone else’s perspective so you have go back through your life and find something that is similar or equivalent. I have never been groped or cat called or raped or 10,000 other things on #YesAllWomen but I do know about boundary violations, violence and bullying so I can get close enough to what they feel. I know some people think bullying is different… Read more »
” Sorry, but our system has recognized you may be a spammer. Your comment has been held in our spam moderation queue. A human will review it shortly and if it’s not spam, we’ll publish it. […]”
It happen again 🙁
I released that one but I can’t see it in the comments unless it’s in the older comments
I still get upset sometimes whenever I hear someone make statements about “all men” or say things that suggest “that’s what guys are like,” but I’m starting to get over it. By “get over it,” I don’t mean those people are right, just that those people are not really talking to me, and I try not to waste my time in a conversation that’s not really a conversation. Any woman who says anything about “all men” is not really having a conversation with anyone but herself. She’s certainly not speaking to me. Maybe she’s seeking commiseration or validation from other… Read more »
Maybe when people read what the shooter wrote in his rambling manifesto, we can all put the tired old “nice guy” trope to rest. That thing where women prefer violent assholes instead of gentle, nice, considerate men. Did anyone else catch the horrible irony here? He explained that he was going to kill a lot of people because he was gentleman and women are not attracted to nice men. How “nice” are you really if you go on a shooting spree? Call me a purist, but I think stabbing your roommates and shooting strangers is pretty rude and inconsiderate. Not… Read more »
I have had the same thoughts as you WellOkay. Couldn’t agree more with you here. I would also add, can we put the rest the idea that women just like men with money and nice cars. Rodgers had both of these things and women were still not interested in him for this either.
Good point. We can also put to rest the pseudo-evolutionary idea that women only go for the “good hunter.” Presumably a man that well-armed should have no trouble bringing down a mammoth, so women should be flocking to his memory and telling their boyfriends “why can’t you be more like that Elliot guy?” If women are only after men who are good providers, then it must not be providers of ammunition.
This is a great post and helps to articulate so many things that I have found hard to express, So thank you.
What’s going on with some of these comments?? …half of them are unintelligible. And many of them just demonstrate exactly why the world needs feminism.
I know, It’s why I gave up replying.
You would think I had asked men to do the impossible when all I was trying to do was show that when you are silent in the face of someone having their rights abused they can’t tell that you disagree. That if we want a world where people are safe we need to speak up and act so it becomes a better place.
I think this is the problem Luke, I do believe you have good intentions, but your requests are kinda obsolete, asking men to do men things because their men. We fall back straight into the old or ancient paradigm of binary society. With splitted roles between men and women. Frankly I dont think the gender intellectuals (feminist included) have the necessary cultural tools in to dealing with mens issues. First asking (demanding) men to stop being masculine and attacking masculinity when everything goes well, just to run back screaming ‘ where are the menz’ when things goes bad. And this… Read more »
I had a look through the last three hours of spam and couldn’t find it. Sorry you may have to retype it. They have a new filter here at GMP which is a little more vicious, I had my own comments blocked for a few days as well.
I don’t normally block comments unless they are particularly personal but the GMP moderators will if they violate the standards they have.
Thanks for looking in to it, there was a waning about me being a spammer (???) I dont know hows that possible, I didnt post any links or anything remotely spammish. Anyways it was just a comment nothing important, and nothing hostile. But again thanks for looking in to it.
ciao
I targeted men for two reasons, the first being this is a men’s site and secondly because the hashtag was #NotAllMen. Everything in my article applies to women as well. I think you could sum this up in that old saying by Edmond Burke “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”
@ Luke Davis
“when all I was trying to do was show that when you are silent in the face of someone having their rights abused they can’t tell that you disagree ”
But remaining silent when they have felt “abused” is exactly what you’re asking them to do. That’s why I suggested #notallmen+. Refute the stereotype in action AND word. Why are you so against men speaking out against the stereotype. Shouldn’t they do both?
About the need for more feminism I think it need to be debated, about your remarks on the comments, I agree. I think somebody got to much coffee 😉
Wow. Now just saying it’s lies. You disgust me.
I’m not say more feminism. I’m saying stand up and be all the positive things a man can be. Define for other men what a positive man can be. It’s so SIMPLE.
Yet that’s only seen as a threat, or whining, or lies.
You want to call me a liar? Fine. I’ll call you what I think you are. A coward.
I’m done.
Elizabeth I dont know who you are reply to?
Who has said people are lying, Elizabeth?
I’d hate to have to bring NotAllMen out again ^_^
Josh called me a liar up above- they have truncated the comments so you can’t see the exchange anymore.
Ah, fair enough.
I still don’t see why more men have to “step up”.
They already exist.
This is like saying non-terrorist muslims need to step up.
They already exist. The bulk of men (and Muslims) aren’t like that. People just aren’t looking and are letting their fear talk. It is confirmation bias in action.
Because it’s so pervasive. I don’t think most men know how bad the problem is, yes, because most men don’t behave that way. #yesallwomen was started as a way to wake the “good guys” up to the fact that violence and harassment happen all the time. No one is saying that every man is a potential Eliot Roger, and no one is saying that one man is responsible for the actions of another. What is being said though is that as citizens of a free society, we should stand up for each other, and more so when there is more… Read more »
@ elizabeth “Because it’s so pervasive.” That took me awhile to realize that for some women it is. I have been sexually harassed by women on the street and at work. I used to base the harassment women face on that experience. Some women have reported similar experiences, but others have reported much worse. One of the problems I had with recognizing what some women faced was that I didn’t see it. One woman explained it by saying that she’s never harassed when she’s with her boyfriend, but when she’s alone or only with girlfriends, she’s harassed all the time.… Read more »
@ John Anderson I think you must be right. In my conversation with men friends this week I’ve realized that much more stepping up goes on than I realized.
It’s sad that we’re all as captive as we still are to the dynamic though. I feel a bit hopeless at times.
At least this week men and women have had a chance to talk and try to listen to each other.
No I didn’t call you a liar. I told you under the current climate of female self victimization that cannot believe you at face value. I was making the point that your annecdotal evidence has no place in this solution. All you are doing is diluting discussion with hysteria of victimization. Sad but true. Too many women take advantage of a system that has reduce evidence required of a crime to being a womans say so. Men have been convicted on no evidence other than her accusation. Due process is gone.
If your ego is so fragile you can’t handle the thoughts of people using the #NotAllWOmen hashtage, then its obviously hitting home on your personal belief systems. Men cause more violence then women. Women have more abortions then men. Our government spends millions upon millions of dollars debating abortion, but women are supposed to shut up about male violence? The men in this country need to grow a pair, or don’t breed, because no one wants you.
“The men in this country need to grow a pair, or don’t breed, because no one wants you”
I detect some man hatred.
” Women have more abortions then men ”
LOL
” The men in this country need to grow a pair, or don’t breed, because no one wants you.”
The majority of men in your country are fine, and trust me lots of women wants to breed with them.
And are women the victims of those crimes, or are they the ones who resolve them? No they aren’t, men are. So why are women complaining about something that doesn’t effect them? Men also make up the majority of arbitrators of crime. (Only) men can stop violence? Men are the (only) ones who (do) stop violence. Women are not the authority on male violence, men are.
Eh, excuse me, but yes, women are also victims of those crimes. Many women help stop violence as well. And she never said only men can stop violence, but that men could help by, at least, LISTENING to women.
“Women are not the authority on male violence, men are.”
Well, if you men are, let me tell you: you are doing a fucking poor job. Many Countries have much, much less sexual violence than here.
The point is Suzana, that people are quite happy to generalise men in negative ways.
Never in positive ways – like the fact that men are also the majority of first responders, crime arbitrators etc.
If that wasn’t a clear indicator of prejudice I don’t know what is, but I’m not the one trying to rationalise this sort of thinking.
All we’re asking for is consistency. Either generalise the positives to us along with the negatives, or stop generalising us altogether.
“The men in this country need to grow a pair, or don’t breed, because no one wants you.”
Using sex to invalidate men, Jill?
That’s sort of the problem here, wouldn’t you say?
Jill, the fact that you haven’t been banned for your outright hateful comments is proof positive of what a frigging joke this site has become.
Yep and the fact that some of my posts were deleted because female feelings are more important that rationality and facts.
How about an article called Not All Cops covering people who have been killed by police and Federal agents?
It’s really starting to get to the point that MAYBE, these hashtags should be edited to #YesAllWomenIKnow and NotAllMenIKnow, because as much as we all are giving Personal Acounts and Experiences that are Opposite of the Status Quo, NOBODY on either side believes it or cares.
Everyone- from the Media to People of Power & Authority to even Regular People- should LISTEN and Acknowledge Both POVs to find a Real, Absolute Solution because THIS Isn’t Helping
Part of the problem may be that women take men for granted. I don’t think that this aspect is even given much consideration. Guys will say we need chivalry to show women that they’re special, but when do women show men that they’re special? When guys do good things, this is not considered normal male behavior, it’s considered normal person behavior. When men do heroic things, their gender is hidden or down played. Yet, we have articles like this exhorting men to “fight the stereotype” by doing even more good acts, which probably and ultimately will go unrecognized.
@ John Anderson. This is EXACTLY what I think should be done. Men need to be praised, the narrative needs to change to reflect all these things. Men NEED TO BE PART OF THAT SOLUTION.
I always try to show the men in my life that they are special to me. I do not believe in chivalry, but generosity and kindness, for everyone.
And hey, it is just me or I see men being praised for their good deeds a lot? Really, most of the heroic actions I have seen come from males, and I am so thankful for them!
How about #YesAllPeople? What woman has not been catcalled? Well, what living person has not been insulted or sweared at in his life, or threatened? The bullying example is something more than one kid, male or female, knows all too well for most of its school life but it’s not sexualized and therefore not news worthy. And yet, what does feminism say about it? “Boys are afraid girls will laugh at them Girls are afraid boys will rape them” If I may translate, “Rape is the only form of violence worth being afraid of. You are just being made fun… Read more »
You clearly don’t get it. If you don’t have constructive thoughts related to human rights to add to this, then don’t open your mouth, because your generic watered down “female” opinion is misogynist by accusing other women of “making it up” and “trying to get attention.” You do realize its not about your personal need for self gratified narcissism on the internet, right?? You’re not special, you are one of 3 billion women on this planet, so start acting like it.
The women commenting here are making huge leaps of logic. YesAllwomen is a giant leap of logic. Feminists are always looking for ways to infate prevalence. We’ve seen figures of 1in6 turn to 1in5 turn to 1in4 turn to 1in3 Now we have all women. Its all about the threat narative. yesallwomen is a feminist fantasy. feminists love rape, they love women being beaten, being abused etc. It keeps them relevent. Anyway point out any little nit pick that women may have suffered no matter how trivial then lump that into a stat that includes rape and murder to infalte… Read more »
Oh- make that four of my friends. My Aunt’s husband raped her as punishment for trying to leave. She had no legal recourse because under state law, sex was part of being a wife, whether it was consensual or not. My 16 year old cousin was videotaped showering by her step father. He never admitted doing anything wrong. My Aunt even tried to reconcile… but he couldn’t even admit it. We may not have all been physically hurt, but yes, every one of us has experienced some form of misogyny, from cat calling on up. Not all men are culpable,… Read more »
I do not know of ONE single woman (or… girl) that hasn’t faced sexual harassment in her life. I do not think you know how much women suffer sexual harassment and violence in this world. I do not think you want to hear about it, or even believe it. But yes, unfortunately, we start experiencing it very young and that keeps for our whole lives. Yes, Almost All Women. Most women and girls are not lying. Why would we. It is scary enough to be open about it, with so many men willing to blame us and dismiss our experiences,… Read more »
Really? Sexual harresment is in the eye of the beholder. For a lot of women sexual harrasment can simply be unwanted attention from a man they don’t find attractive. Its possible, that the exact same behavoir from another man will be flirting and fun. Have you ever asked men weather they face sexual harrasment? ” I do not think you want to hear about it, or even believe it.” I think and I feel are not arguments. This isn’t about your feelings. Your feelings a poluting the dialogue. Adding to hysteria helps no one. It perpetuates fear and puts men… Read more »
Thank you for posting this. Great analogy. I advise everyone to check out #yesallwomen
So I think there must be an urgent need for male leadership. We women talk about the se things and you don’t want to hear it. More men need to stand up against yes, the few, but do it. LEAD them. You guys are good at that!!
Ok I’ll stop now. Thanks for listening.
Thanks Elizabeth
*13-35
Ok, I’m writing another comment. Clearly I am struggling with this, but I’m trying to engage. I mean, I wonder if “the good guys” are aware of what a woman has to expect. It’s not typical behavior from men, but it’s the typical experience of women. The #Not AllWomen hashtag was a way to try to make it plain. *I don’t think you all really know.* Three of my friends have been raped. I’ve been sexually assaulted three times, two of which were in public, and no one did anything. When I was a teenager, I was approached on the… Read more »
Yep, this is what it all boils down to: not all men engage in this behavior but all women experience this behavior at the hands of men. Until men acknowledge this we can’t even begin to have any meaningful dialog.
Except it isn’t YesAllWomen. And it’s not always men as perpetrators either.
And before anyone jumps in and says “You’re not listening to women” – wrong. It was by listening to women that I found out that YesAllWomen isn’t actually true.
Generalisations really aren’t doing you any favours here.
I would prefer an actual discussion on this, but swapping clichés via hashtag isn’t that.
Not only women Kristen, but there is little to talk about since we cannot and should not stereotype all men, same with women. I dont understand why some people try desperately to stereotype some categories. Face the reality, not all men. full stop. Case closed.
Now instead wasting braincells on stupidity (trying to find excuses for stereotyping people is stupidity) how about we use our few braincells for finding a real slution rather than just empty talk?
And a lot of men have a lot of experiences of other (i.e. nonsexual) violence. In many cases, that’s more prevalent than sexual violence.
Yet we manage to get by with less stereotyping and constant feelings of fear.
I wonder if this is because men don’t currently have a movement that keeps reinforcing that feeling of fear.
More men face more nonsexual violence because: 1. Many men that experiences other (nonsexual) violence are violent themselves and put themselves out there (gangs, criminals, etc.); 2. Men take risks way more than women; going out alone at night, dangerous places, etc. Men fear less fear of nonsexual violence than women fear sexual violence because: 1. Fear of physical violence most of the times and for most people could NEVER compare to the fear of sexual violence. I heard men that are going to prison most of the times fear rape much, much more than other types of violence; 2.… Read more »
Your comment about prison shows men have as much fear as women do. Add that if assaulted by a woman, there is almost no way for a man to open up about it without being mocked. even better he might be charged with a crime to protect her reputation.
Fear of physical violence most of the times and for most people could NEVER compare to the fear of sexual violence. I heard men that are going to prison most of the times fear rape much, much more than other types of violence;
If this were true how does the threat of violence from rapist act as coercion for the victim to cooperate?
Thank you Elizabeth and I’m sorry if I appeared harsh. But let’s fast forward some years with your kids. You have raised two great kids, all their friends appear to be on track and the friends parents appear to have it all together as well. Then you start reading about boys/men and how awful many of them are. And you read more and more and you notice that most of the time when men are in the news, it’s negative. But you know the truth, in your life, you don’t see it. All of a sudden you realize that they… Read more »
Just saw this. Well I certainly try to be on the right track, i think we all owe it to ourselves and our kids. And I get the judging the many by the actions of a few thing, I do. Clearly you are doing great things, and I can see why you’d be offended by an article like this. I did write a comment below though. I do think that many “good guys” aren’t aware of what most women go through at the hands of a few. Although I am tough enough to have gotten through the stuff I listed… Read more »
I also want to say that I really love and value the men in my life now. I trust them, and admire them and appreciate what makes us different, and what makes us the same. I am pro man, pro woman.
I appreciate your answer, and I agree that feminism has not done very much to acknowledge men in their fullness. I read this website regularly, one, because I am a single mom to two young boys, and I want to raise them to be happy, fulfilled, and productive people. I think that misogyny hurts men as well as women- I hope people take the time to read this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/05/elliot-rodger-and-poisonous-ideals-of-masculinity/371588/ I’m going to take your comments about men stepping up under advisement. I know nearly all of the men in my life now are productive stand up people. But something… Read more »
Wow this is one of the most depressing threads I’ve read. Why is it so threatening to so many of you? The author is simply asking for this: “I’m a man because … I help those who are hurt and humiliated get up and dust themselves off” “I’m a man because … I speak up against circumstances that make others afraid, hurt or humiliate them.” “I’m a man because … I actively call out those who join in laughing or agreeing with the actions of others that make others afraid, hurt or humiliated.” “I’m a man because … I actively… Read more »
No-one is saying they won’t stand up against such things person to person – just don’t gender it, and don’t generalise in a way we know darn well wouldn’t be accepted in reverse. That’s all we’re asking.
No-one is automatically responsible for the actions of others just because of the genitals they happen to have in common.
Elizabeth, no offense but perhaps you don’t see it because you’re not a man? As a women, your gender has had the benefit of a constant force “feminism” that’s fought for your rights for the past 40 years. Your gender continues to have countless people fighting for your rights as a female. In the past 40 years, my gender hasn’t had that benefit and worse yet, my gender continues to be degraded, scrutinized, dissected, put under a microscope and rather then men being simply allowed to be who they are and add to who they are, they’re asked to question… Read more »
I wished you hadn’t used an example of adolescent or younger guys pulling a foolish prank on someone in a classroom. It relates to an undeveloped person who is in the process of developing who he is as a man. Some of those kids who laughed or were silent 1. silent because they were not equipped to deal with the situation. 2. Laughed because others laughed or may have laughed out of nervousness. Or worse yet, wanting to be part of the group. But what you did is lumped a bunch of developing young boys into a category of “being… Read more »
Wow this is one of the most depressing threads I’ve read. Why is it so threatening to so many of you? The author is simply asking for this: “I’m a man because … I help those who are hurt and humiliated get up and dust themselves off” “I’m a man because … I speak up against circumstances that make others afraid, hurt or humiliate them.” “I’m a man because … I actively call out those who join in laughing or agreeing with the actions of others that make others afraid, hurt or humiliated.” “I’m a man because … I actively… Read more »
Many men, deep inside, could care less about women’s issues; they just won’t admit. In fact, many feel some kind of twisted pleasure when they know women suffer. Yes, even the “good” ones.
For the most part, I reject the idea of collective responsibility. I am not accountable for the actions of other men just because I am a man. I am not obligated to stop other people’s bad behavior because those people have my same chromosome pattern, at least no more than I am obligated to stop any bad behavior. If I am obligated as a human being to stand up to injustice, then it’s an obligation to stand up to all of it regardless of gender. There is no special gender responsibility. I won’t feel ashamed of something that a man… Read more »
Agreed- I think that really sums it up right there. That’s human progress, and humane thinking. Thanks.
“If you look at me and all you see is a threat because of my gender, then that is your problem and your issues, not my problem.” That is a social problem, though. We (generous people) need to see the source, analyze it and try to do something about it. People become what they are because of their experiences. But I guess you are just another guy that is too cold to women’s issues to even try to look at it objectively. As a social and kind person, I try to comprehend people’s issues and try to help. Because in… Read more »