Roger Barnett thinks we’re doing a disservice to young men by offering them porn as their only real form of sexual education.
I wish someone had sat down with me when I was in my early teens and had a frank chat about pornography and sex. In the absence of genuine information about sex, pornography became a de-facto educational tool, and I assumed what it portrayed was accurate. Needless to say, like many teens, this set me up to get about a hundred things wrong in bed in the future
I’m not anti-porn. Indeed, if we’re talking about sex between consenting adults, I’m decidedly liberal. But porn has its dangers and needs to be framed in some kind of context and coupled with real information. Otherwise, like me, our youth are in for an unpleasant series of surprises when they attempt to copy what they see in porn with their own partners; the real world is far more complicated – and interesting! – than much of what’s on our screens.
Before I divulge my sometimes embarrassingly earned lessons, I need to tackle a pervasive myth: That porn is fundamentally disrespectful towards women, and to enjoy porn is to be a misogynist. I used to assume this was true, and trying to reconcile my love of women with my enjoyment of porn was a challenge. Eventually I was relieved to discover that despite the presence of porn in my life, I didn’t hate women or want to treat my female partners badly. If the misogyny myth wasn’t true for me, then maybe it simply wasn’t true
The alleged link between porn and a hatred of women has never been demonstrated by research. Personally, I believe that if one already hates women (or men), one will find porn that expresses that hatred in a sexualised way. However, if in life you approach people with respect, then you will find that nasty porn is just not to your liking. We live in liberal times, and you have access to an incredible array of stimulus; keep searching until you find something ethical.
So here is what I wish someone had told me:
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1. No two people are the same, and no two people like the same things in bed. Further, what a person likes will change depending on who they’re with, and even at different times with the same partner. In mainstream porn, certain themes emerge, and it’s easy to assume that those recurrent patterns can be transposed onto all partners. It is better to start sex from a perspective of curiosity and a willingness to experiment (and watch the feedback), rather than with an arsenal of moves up your sleeve that might have worked for somebody else.
2. The sex and sexual techniques that are portrayed in pornography are selected based on what will look dynamic on screen, rather than what is enjoyable or what the actors themselves might actually like. This means that big, dramatic, and often hard-core sex scenes take up most of the time in porn, and the less grandiose and subtler things get left out simply because they’re not as cinematic. There’s a place for big, fast, athletic sex, but there’s also a place for slow, intimate acts done with the right attitude. As with all sex, the best way to navigate is to simply run some experiments, and ask for feedback.
3. A lot of heterosexual porn is somewhat stereotyped in terms of gender roles; he will generally be the pursuer, the active one, the one on top, while she will be pursued, more passive, and often be on the bottom. Sticking rigidly to these roles doesn’t work for most people. You’re short-changing yourself if you never switch things around and play with the dynamics, even if only for five minutes here and there, to see what you like.
4. All bodies are beautiful. Pornography (and the fashion and advertising industries, generally), cater almost exclusively to people of a certain shape, and we are led to believe that only these people are sexy. The truth is that what a person is like in bed depends on their relationship to you, and their relationship to their own body. The way they look gives you no information about either of these things – although the way they look at you will give you some hints!
5. Pubic hair is beautiful. Some people get rid of it, others don’t; both have their advantages. Learn to have fun either way, and love your own body either way. Being comfortable in your own body, however it looks, is perhaps the greatest gift you can offer to yourself and those you choose to share your body with.
6. Saying “no” is as much a part of sex as saying “yes”. It’s easy to assume, from watching porn, that a good lover will already know a hundred and one tricks to get any partner off. In reality, sex is a constant and creative series of experiments, some of which work, many of which don’t. There are no standards that work with all people, every time. Asking your partner to do something differently is a sure path to improving sex for the both of you, especially if it’s phrased as a positive request – “can you please try it more like this…?” – rather than simply “that’s not working for me”. Also, it should go without saying that if you don’t want something, you are always and unquestionably entitled to say a nice, clear “no” – both men and women suffer pressure to skip this important step.
7. Something that almost never comes across in pornography is the love – or at least the sense of intimacy – that exists between most partners. It doesn’t make for easy screenplay, and most porn actors don’t have such feelings for one another. However, in your life, these are the things that will change sex from being a basic physical act, to a deeply moving and gratifying spiritual experience that brings you closer to your self and your partner (if you want it to).
(This point shouldn’t be read as a vote against casual sex with a relative stranger, if that’s what you’re into).
8. In the context of a relationship, sex starts hours, days, weeks before penetration – if penetration happens at all. When creating pornography, directors aren’t aiming to put together hours of tantalising dialogue and witty flirting, or even the unlimited varieties of foreplay that most folks enjoy; they’re pitching to an audience that they believe just wants to see explicit sex and lots of it, and so this is what is often produced. However, in real life, putting that much focus on just the hard-core parts of sex makes for some of the least enjoyable sex you could hope for. The way you and your partners treat each other throughout the day, and the way sex begins, makes a big difference to your enjoyment of sex.
9. The more you watch one particular kind of porn, or one particular body type, the more your brain will wire itself to associate that type of activity or person with sex. This has implications for your love life; be careful you don’t accidentally program yourself for a narrow band of enjoyment, as you might overlook a whole variety of other pleasures.
10. Porn works pretty well if you just want some relief. But again, you’re inadvertently programming yourself for quick, shallow orgasms if this is the extent of how you use it. Why not go the other way? – Set aside a couple of hours, rack up a suite of your favorite porn, and see how long you can hold out for. Soon you’ll be having orgasms you didn’t know were possible, and it will radically improve your love life, not detract from it.
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Good sex is both your right and it’s within your reach – treat it like any other skill that might benefit from some focus now and then. Pornography is not always useful as an educational resource, but nor is it pure evil. Let your own feedback and the feedback from your partner be your ultimate guide, and enjoy!
Originally posted on Equality for Men and Women’s Facebook page.
For more, read Lynn Beisner’s Panda Three Way
Image of X on black keyboard courtesy of Shutterstock
About Roger Barnett
Sarah:
But, what about all the guys who DO like seeing porn where women are degraded or abused? I have read comments from guys (not here) who argue that liking that kind of porn means nothing and it doesn’t reflect any feelings they have about women, that’s what bugs me. OF COURSE it means something.
I’ll be the first to agree that to the guys that are into that stuff it does mean something. In fact I wager that something plays a big role in why a lot of guys don’t do that kind of stuff.
There was an article in Slate.com yesterday about a woman who is a dominatrix and she talked about how it’s an outlet for her anger. She talked about once punching a boyfriend in the face and another time she got angry at her boyfriend and she grabbed a whip. The scene she’s part of sounded pretty dark to me. But she impressed me as self-aware, actually. She admits she’s angry and doesn’t pretend otherwise.
So what would you say about a man who made the exact same confession about doing the same to girlfriends?
I’m sure you wouldn’t make such an accusation but there is no way in hell that a guy would be able to make a similar confession about punching girlfriends in the without being called everything from a woman hater to misogynist to abuser to beater and calls to have him brought up on charges.
You want to know why there are men out there that dark impulses but don’t admit them? Because unlike with women men and masculinity are tied to violence in such a way that nearly any male expression of violence and/or anger is assumed to be bad from the get go.
This woman you speak of here it’s great that she acknowledges her anger but do you know what guys face when they try to do the same? We get lumped in with the worst of the bunch. They wouldn’t want a guy to just say that he hit a girlfriend and they damn sure wouldn’t find him to be self-aware and impressive. No the only way that would happen is if the guy were in the crash of a guilt trip where he is compelled to find some way to “make things right” or even get into one of those crowds that are working doing something about violence against women.
We aren’t allowed to be angry and be self aware of it without being regarded as monsters. No we have to be on the edge suicide, or begging forgiveness, or vowing to “help women”, or some other form of atonement. Well I’ll say that such allowance is SLOWLY coming but for the most part an angry man is a bad man.
“There was an article in Slate.com yesterday about a woman who is a dominatrix and she talked about how it’s an outlet for her anger. She talked about once punching a boyfriend in the face and another time she got angry at her boyfriend and she grabbed a whip. The scene she’s part of sounded pretty dark to me. But she impressed me as self-aware, actually. She admits she’s angry and doesn’t pretend otherwise.”
Punch a man in the face, she must be so self-aware! Is this girlpower to you Sarah? The way you made it sound….is odd. Abuse is abuse…
Female privilege #99581-I can hit a man publicly and most likely NOT be in danger of getting my head smacked in by onlookers or arrested by police, infact they will probably support me and think of it as GRRLLLPOWER.
Well I thought she was self aware, not that she was admirable in any way! She admits she is angry which many males in her situation would not. Instead, they would emphasize that it’s all a consensual fantasy and claim they weren’t actually angry at women. But she’s like, yeah, I’m angry, and I’m even abusive at times to men because I’m angry. Again, I don’t find that admirable, but she’s honest about it, that was what I was pointing out. Actually the article felt kind a creepy to me, I’m glad I don’t have any urges to be part of that kind of scene.
Fair enough that don’t find her impressive, my bad on the misread.
Instead, they would emphasize that it’s all a consensual fantasy and claim they weren’t actually angry at women.
And do you know why they do that? Because men are already stigmatized as violent so when it comes to a man committing violence he is more likely to be condemned than a woman. While the woman you speak of has a strike against her for being into what seems to be kink if this were a man he would start off with two strikes, being into kink and being a man.
Despite the gender of role of men calling for anger (because it’s not just “allowed” it’s expected if not demanded of us) if we admit our anger in some context other than asking for help or begging forgiveness we are labeled bad.
Men are stuck in a double bind of we are supposed to be angry but when we are we are scolded for it. And when it comes to emotional health in general a lot of men face this double bind. When your choices are hide it or be scolded for is it any wonder that a lot of men choose to hide it?
In short that woman has the female privilege of being able to openly and honestly say that she is angry and that she has hit people over it without being relentlessly scolded for it. She doesn’t have to worry about having the Duluth Model shoved up her ass and down her throat as being the reasons for why she is angry and expresses that anger through violence. In fact there is a good chance that people will make even more excuses for her than would be made for a violent man in a similar situation.
I’ll try to make a bit of an analogy. I think you were in the comments in the “Who Has The Power In Dating?” post weren’t you? Remember that a big part of those comments was about the expectations behind the approach? I’m sure you also remember some of the women there fought against the idea that “women have it easy since they aren’t the that are expected to approach guys.”? Doesn’t seem right to try to end it at that and not go into why women aren’t expected to approach (much less what bad things that can happen when they do approach). That’s what I’m trying to say here.
Men have been shut down emotionally to the point of simply not having many healthy outlets for even emtions that don’t stand as much of a chance of being as destructive as anger. I think it’s unfair to not take that into account when saying it’s a good thing a woman admits her anger and then cut guys off at “they wouldn’t admit it and would try to cover it up instead”.
I hear you, it’s a bind. I think what I am running into here intellectually is trying to understand for myself “why do some men (and women) like this kind of porn that I find so demeaning and disturbing, are they angry? What is it?” and some guys insist they aren’t angry, but then you are saying even if they were angry, they couldn’t admit it. I am honestly trying to understand it without going off onto a shrill and judgmental anti-porn stance, but some of the stuff out there does scare me and it bothers me that’s it’s popular. I guess I am trying to see it as an aspect of human nature that is maybe not so nice, but may reflect urges toward violence that we all have, as I’ve said in earlier comments.
“why do some men (and women) like this kind of porn that I find so demeaning and disturbing, are they angry? What is it?”
I think one possible explanation for it (no matter how badly some folks want to pretend it doesn’t happen) is that (at least with guys) they get to a point of emptiness and loneliness that they eventually conclude “why should I care about other people when no one cares about me?”.
Once that happens it’s not a giant leap to see how they would embrace things that others call demeaning. And I think there is some anger in that loneliness as well. (Some becomes lonely and then they become bitter and angry, you can see this even in children’s cartoons.)
I guess I am trying to see it as an aspect of human nature that is maybe not so nice, but may reflect urges toward violence that we all have, as I’ve said in earlier comments.
Possible. But bear in mind that once you add gender roles, individual experiences, and individual responses those urges towards violence and that human nature can shift drastically. Even among a single group of young boys that are friends and start watching porn at a young age you can end up with a mixture how they think of sex and relationships later in life.
Fabulous comments. The men not admitting the anger is the problem, so true, good point. What I find, and yes I’m a therapist, sue me!!!…is that the men are projecting onto the woman in the porn, that she is their caregiver (we all do this, I call it MOTHERFUCKING) and these men most likely did NOT get their needs met as an infant, or a child, and are screaming out in rage and want to punish their caregiver. However, the fact that these men, nor society, have any insight, or even a dialogue, about the increased violence against women is astounding. It’s like the pink elephant in the world. It’s ruling our entire society, and we hear nothing. To say it’s merely a “fantasy” is an emotional bypass. If women increasingly in large numbers got turned on by 10 year-old boys being brutalized by old men or women, men would FREAK OUT…or if your girlfriend masturbated to puppies getting kicked in the face…that wouldn’t fuck you up? “Hey honey, it’s just a fantasy.” What also depresses me that men’s instinct to dominate women is stronger than his instinct to protect her, which is a huge let down for me, anyway. Women see porn and instinctually want to help other women, from the man. Yes, I get mad against this abuse towards women, but I have compassion. If I could hug all these men, I would. At the end of the day all children with unmet needs. It’s the cycle of abuse. Now THEY have the power. Only the truly powerless, daydream of hurting someone who is physically weaker than them. Sexually bullies. Bullies are insecure!. Be well. I’m glad we are having this dialogue. Cheers to all:)
PeggyD, the best and actually the only way, is to ask the guys the why’s on porn. Otherwise, frankly its just intellectual masturbation akin to daydreaming. And what you describe, it doesent sound like porn but more like slasher movies.
Read Danny, read Archy and others, there have been tons of explanation both in this topik and similar. And frankly im getting a bit tired of women jumping in and pointing fingers.
Personally? I think that blaming others and coming with harsh judgement, followed by closure on the topik is more a common female behaviour. Also some guys do this, just look at the topiks concerning feminism (a point I made in another post of mine who got ignored) I see similar reactions from guys, exactly the same kind when women comment on porn. But it seems more prevalent in my experience, this kind of behaviour from women. I wonder why? is that a defensive mechanism? is that a cultural thingy? is that a communication style? I dont know.
But summa summarum, ask the guys. Dont over think it, just ask, and take the answers for granted.
“If women increasingly in large numbers got turned on by 10 year-old boys being brutalized by old men or women, men would FREAK OUT”
Wtf, are you trying to suggest there is a large number of men being turned on by child porn and it’s increasing? I’d say they’re a minority, a very smallll minority.
The big problem are those anti-porn crusaders who try to state porn is so harmful to women, and then guys say they don’t look at violent porn only to be disbelieved and told they’re in denial. I’ve seen a lot of porn and the majority has been non-violent, there is also a huge shift to amateur porn which is now the dominant form of porn produced (sexting for instance). I’ve been told I look at rape porn because all porn is rape, that I’m degrading women etc and all this horrible shit even though the porn I watch is egalitarian couples having fun, or solo women who run their own business on webcam sites.
@Danny, I don’t find her impressive at all. She actually sounds like someone with major issues. That was my point, sorry if I didn’t make it well.
It’s also possible that fantasies behave like release valves, and only when this gismo somehow corrodes, that issues creep in. It’s also possible that we need to fantasize with submission, to keep our empathy skills sharp. Like dreams – those free-running, unencumbered by physical bodies, free-falling obsessed episodes of nightly unconsciousness – their purposes could be to manage some human weakness on an erasable whiteboard. Or maybe not. Just to say that there are alternate ways of seeing it as a feature rather than a bug, unless it becomes a bug, to which the porn hounds on this thread seem to be conceding willingly.
Question. What if my problem with your sexual use of women via porn stems not from the fact that I assume it makes you hate all women, but from the fundamental dynamic of men being able to buy sexual access to women in the first place, and from the fact that many, many (I would even say the majority of) women in the sex industry are there because they were victims of child sex abuse, they were taken advantage of by pornographers when they were young and naive and thought being in porn would be totally different, they get addicted to drugs, etc. Weather or not you give your own female partner the right to refuse brutal, body punishing sex in bed with you, it makes me feel really angry and sad as a woman that you think it’s okay for some women to be treated like that in pornography (and so much porn is connected these days–the same woman you see in a relatively soft-core feature film could be reduced to gang bang scenes, ATMs, having multiple men ejaculate on her, in a few years, when she’s considered used up and has to take more and more extreme jobs just to get work–the fact that you think it’s okay for “some” women to be treated like that by men feels, in and of itself, misogynist–and as a woman, I feel like I can’t have equality in a society where a certain class of women can be bought and sold and treated like fuck objects or masturbatory tools you pick up and put away, once you’re done jerking it. I don’t understand why men can’t masturbate without using women like that–surely men can come up with their own fantasies that are more egalitarian, and don’t involve capitalist consumption of mass-marketed porn. I grew up in a home with a father who used porn throughout my childhood, and though he still loved me and treated me well as his daughter, his use of pornography still impacted me. I learned that I could never expect to have a man’s love all to myself, or expect a partner not to use other women sexually from time to time. To me, that feels terrible. I think porn gives men an unfair advantage when it comes to sex–what you get in exchange for sex should be sex with another person–if you have to use money to manipulate a woman into getting fucked on camera for you, that’s coercion and it feels pretty terrible to me as a woman, weather or not men think I have a right to that hurt. If you listen to women who’ve exited the industry as well, they will tell you how unsafe it is, how they faked every orgasm and really hated it–it’s all a lie about women that you’re watching, and I believe that does affect your sexual soul as a man. I myself am not religious, but if you’d like to hear two ex porn stars talk about their negative experiences in the sex industry, I think this is a telling clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRZZAuPyG7I&list=FLHc_Kx_iveSKLTwffDF3jaQ&feature=mh_lolz
Sexism isn’t always just conscious things like saying to yourself, “I hate women!”–I don’t think there are many men in the world who would admit to sexism that blatant–often it’s more subtle, and I think, though it might feel tough, if you really care about ALL women, looking at why you feel entitled to buy sexual access to women via porn would be a pro-feminist thing for you to do as a man. I believe that men can care, and change, and stop their porn use.
Do you make a distinction between “commercial” porn and user-generated content, such as that found on the MLNP project by Cindy Gallop? That is, are you against all depictions of sexual activities between adults, or only those where you feel the consent is ill-informed or perhaps less than enthusiastic?
God, I have written you a lengthy response twice now, and this stupid page keeps refreshing the contents and deleting it at the last minute. I can’t access that site because it says “we’re beta darling, invitation only!” which turns me off in and of itself, but for the record, I’m a radical feminist who is proudly antiporn, and no, that does not mean I am against TRUE (let me stress that since the term is so misused these days, true!) erotica–which I’d define as explicit sexual material that depicts sex as being about mutuality, tenderness, gentleness, egalitarianism, and respect, particularly for women (and yes, I realize two that in a world where the average boy in the US downloads his first hard core porn at age 11, most guys out there can no longer respond to sex like that.” My definition of pornography is the same as MacKinnon and Dworkin’s, which defines porn as a form of sex discrimination, and states that pornography is “the graphic sexually explicit subordination of women, whether in pictures or in words, that also includes one or more of the following: 1 women are presented as sexual objects who enjoy pain or humiliation [whether or not the woman consented to be portrayed in that way or is over 18 or the porn was made by a woman doesn’t make a difference to me and honestly, I think the notion of women having the freedom to consent to that type of portrayal in a male dominant society in which we are groomed to base our self-esteem on whether or not men find us sexually attractive, are under tons of pressure to be the “cool girlfriend” who lets our boyfriend film us during sex and acts like it doesn’t hurt that he’s looking at other women getting fucked on video, even while he’s supposed to be in a committed relationship with us–I think the notion that women have the same kind of freedom to give consent that men do betrays overt male privilege–still in the US the only fields in which women out earn our male peers working in the same field are modelling and prostitution–that says something about the pressure we are under to sell sex. If a woman wants to film herself having sex, I think one needs to be careful about putting that on the internet–let’s say she gave consent to have a man tie her up and be rough with her–okay, some other woman’s boyfriend will now watch that, get the idea in his head that it would be cool to try out on his girlfriend, start pressuring her, and if she doesn’t want to do it, even if he respects her choice, now she’ll have this nagging doubt in her head about whether or not he would like her more if she did, the fact that he’s still probably using those videos when he’s alone, maybe even replaying them in his head while he’s having sex with her…it all feels pretty overwhelming and terrible, not to mention the fact that MAINSTREAM porn, the best selling stuff that most men use, is nightmarishly violent now–and the women in it are REAL PEOPLE–I can’t believe the guy who wrote this wanted to be sure we know he’s not anti-THAT. Men seem more concerned with finding some sort of less overtly violent porn that women will give the okay to, rather than opposing an industry that destroys so many women’s lives (and also, that is simply false that there has been no research showing that porn use impacts men’s treatment of women outside pornography–there have been studies that have shown, for example, that even repeated exposure to soft core porn made men less able to recognize acts of violence against women, less likely to believe a rape victim, etc. This man may not feel impacted himself, but he is not all men out there. I want to post this before I get erased again, thanks!
First off
PLEASE USE PARAGRAPHS
“I’m a radical feminist who is proudly antiporn, and no, that does not mean I am against TRUE (let me stress that since the term is so misused these days, true!) erotica–which I’d define as explicit sexual material that depicts sex as being about mutuality, tenderness, gentleness, egalitarianism, and respect, particularly for women”
I watch mostly amateur porn. It’s a mix of “solo”, women who basically masturbate, and couples who usually go oral sex on each other, sometimes it’s a 69 or she get’s it first, then him, then they move on to PIV, he orgasms, she orgasms or he continues with oral till she does. There’s no dirty talk that is negative (eg calling her a slut), just good ol sex where it’s a real couple trying to get each other off n share in their pleasure. Would you define that as good porn? or erotica?
“Men seem more concerned with finding some sort of less overtly violent porn that women will give the okay to, rather than opposing an industry that destroys so many women’s lives”
I don’t pay for porn, I look at utube style sites which have ads for running costs. There is a lot of piracy in porn now doing damage but I see quite a huge amount of amateur content being created which is mostly the erotica? you talk about, egalitarian in nature, etc. I’m not sure how else I could oppose the pro porn inudstry apart from not funding it? I hate seeing violence in porn, all I care about seeing is sex in a fun and pleasurable way, I want to see all people in the video be happy, consenting, and enjoy their sex. I use it mostly to fantasize about life with a gf as I am currently single, it’ll most likely get shelved once I am in another relationship as I’d rather be with her.
I understand you’re anti-porn, I agree with quite a lot you have to say, I am anti-some porn, but completely pro-good porn. I think we need to celebrate the good porn and make it the easiest to find whilst getting rid of bad porn or at least giving warnings about it’s content. I think most porn viewers simply want to see sex and considering how many I see talk about amateur porn I think the pro industry needs to wakeup and realize that many of us want to see good porn, not degrading filth. That said there are quite a few companies now I believe who are making good porn, abbywinters is a production company you might like.
Sorry, forgot that it’s still in beta. Cindy Gallop gave a short TED talk about her vision of redefining porn. She agree with you about the deleterious effects of commercial porn on young people, but her solution isn’t to throw out the entire industry but rather to redefine it. One of the couples contributing videos to the project have put up some trailers on their blog: Uncommon Appetites. I wonder if this type of pornography might still be objectionable to you.
There are a few things worth noting about some of your other objections. First, there is a strong correlation between access to pornography and a decrease in sexual assault. We find this both longitudinally as well as comparatively among the states. Second, while violent themes may be pervasive among commercial porn, commercial porn is losing ground rapidly whereas amateur porn (true amateur, not the commercial stuff by the same name) is the fastest growing segment of the market. Finally, what studios market and what people search for don’t necessarily overlap as much as you would think. The book A Billion Wicked Thoughts catalogs what people actually are looking for on the internet. There’s also one other key point made by the book that shouldn’t be lost on us. We have “no consensus on which sexual interests are normal, abnormal, or pathological. Scientists can’t even agree on the purpose of the female orgasm, whether there is such a thing as having too much sex, or whether sexual fantasies are innocent or dangerous.”
So when you say “mainstream porn” you should realize that not only is it not what you think, but the definition is rapidly shifting as people have increasing access to what interests them, not what studios think should interest them.
Incidentally, it’s not “pressure to sell sex” that leads to the price discrepancy, it’s the scarcity of sex and the willingness of the male buyers that raises the price. Don’t think for a second that women don’t also benefit from this arrangement; the more that sex is a “rare commodity” the more erotic capital women in general have, not just those selling sex for money. Women therefore have a vested interest in ensuring other women keep the price of sex high, which may account for why they engage in “slut shaming” as often as men. I’m not saying it’s a good thing, only that it’s not one-sided and there is considerable complexity to the interaction.
I’ve seen women commenting on the GMP basically showing anger that men have “easy access to sex” with porn, that they don’t “need” a woman, the comments looked like women were actually threatened by it. It did appear to look like the women were worried their erotic capital was losing value. It can appear in some cases at least, men want more sex, women want it more restricted. Do these women in particular feel like sex is their only drawcard?
Quite a bit of your rationalization is old school circular thinking radical feminism Stephanie – the notion that women cannot give meaningful consent due to the ubiquitous forces of patriarchy and male domination, requires a state of false consciousness for those that do provide consent, placing many forms of sexuality into the category of rapey – satisfying the premise of domination.
That my forced desire to sexually please my partner renders me incapable of making willful decisions is a moral landscape that belongs back in the 70’s
Despite being in my thirties, you’re dead right–I’m an old school radical feminist. I don’t deny women their “agency” (and the academic speak works my nerves, as it does for many working class women outside the pomo university world)–patriarchy denies women our agency. Pretending male dominance isn’t alive and well and shaping everything about our sexual choices and what we learn to respond to seems a waste of time to me, but certainly it’ll make you more popular with most men out there. This sentence is feels convoluted and I have a hard time deciphering the last part of it: “the notion that women cannot give meaningful consent due to the ubiquitous forces of patriarchy and male domination, requires a state of false consciousness for those that do provide consent, placing many forms of sexuality into the category of rapey – satisfying the premise of domination.” I will say, I hope you don’t think it’s a feminist thing for you to do to tell me where I and my opinions belong. Didn’t say women can’t make decisions–what I SAID was that our decisions about sex don’t take place in a perfect world–they are shaped in this world, a world where, as this discussion powerfully shows, a woman gets attacked and made fun of if she dares to even suggest that men stop using pornography. Men did fine without porn (and the etimology of the word is “the graphic depiction of whores”–I’m really not sure how any man could expect me to want to reclaim some of that as “good porn” given that history). I appreciate Erin’s comments on here. Beyond that, all this feels really overwhelming and hateful to me, and makes me feel depressed about how much more willing to fight for their “right” to use women as masturbatory tools most of the men on here seem, than to fight for women’s equality. Look at this: “When I buy porn I don’t buy “sexual access” to them. I buy their pictures. Which are infinitely inferior to access to a real woman who’s that enthusiastic about sex.
Nevertheless, I suppose I buy those pictures because a picture better than nothing and is sometimes preferable to a woman who’s not willing and enthusiastic about sex. I think the gripe has something to do with men being able to sidestep women’s ability to dictate men’s access to sex–even if that access is just a marginally better masturbation experience.
If women want men to lay off the porn, be better in bed. More willing, more enthusiastic, more fun.”–This is exactly what I’m saying about pornography giving men an unfair advantage. If women don’t want to do something in bed, men get to use their economic and social power to ensure that there is always SOME CLASS of women somewhere who will do what they want. Nowadays, we’re expected to be “enthusiastic” about having dick rammed way down our throats or getting fucked in the ass, and you basically have two choices–work yourself into a mindset of learning to experience your own subordination as sexual, or spend a hell of a lot of time alone. Why don’t you tell “some guy” where he and his mindset belong? Easier to knock me–another woman with about the same social standing as you–down than to take on the men, isn’t it. Women would have a lot more leverage for getting the sex we want, which, yep, in my case is a hell of a lot gentler and more equal than what most men seem to value–if we didn’t have to contend with men’s ability to get a woman to do whatever they want via pornography. And, yeah, like Erin says, I have many women friends who’s bf’s have pushed these scenarios on them in the bedroom. Why should a man feel entitled to get whatever he wants from women? I’m sick of adapting my sexuality to men’s just to be considered “more fun in bed”–what about what’s more fun for me as a feminist woman? In this culture, if a woman is considered too fat, old, ugly or unattractive to get a guy, tough, she has to deal with it. Men should have to do the same, and they did perfectly fine for centuries without pornography. This guy seriously thinks women have all this power over men and are running the show–total sexism, and total obliviousness. I am seriously scared and sad beyond belief if all this is supposed to be what passes for being a “good man”…This discussion feels too scary and depressing for me to continue with anymore, Thanks again to Erin for his comments and not making me defend a different take on porn all on my own. I’m done.
Because unattractive men have such an easy time of it…
Also, you should get your history right. Pornography has been around for millennia. Most of those cave paintings they’ve found? Porn.
It was good to have your voice while it lasted. Please come back again sometime.
Thanks for catching this Nick.
This is just what I mean when I (and others) talk about how women deny the experiences of men.
And apprently we are supposed to believe that porn went from totally nonexistent to all over the place in the last 50 or so years….
In this culture, if a woman is considered too fat, old, ugly or unattractive to get a guy, tough, she has to deal with it. Men should have to do the same,
So does that mean that along with this whole “deal with it” we should be get rid of all those romance novels, fanfictions, and other sexual materials that cater to women? Or let me guess those things are somehow “different”?
Why should I come back? So you can ridicule me some more? This site just feels like a bunch of men complaining about how tough life is for them and how easy women have it, which is about like white folks complaining about how life is so easy if you’re black–it’s absurd? You’re comparing CAVE PAINTINGS to a multi billion dollar industry that profits off of depicting sex as “Man does to woman” and destroys so many women’s lives. Please, please, go find some pics of cave paintings in an anthropology book or a photo of the Venus of Willendorf and masturbate away!!! Jack it all day long if that makes you happy; even if porn has warped your fantasies to such an extend that they’re about degrading women, still, at least you wouldn’t be using actual, real women–because that’s hurting people. Masturbate. And if you get tired of being alone, get off your lazy ass and go find a woman and if you want to see her naked and get turned on in her presence, well damn! WORK FOR THAT SHIT. You are not entitled to an endless parade of women. God, male privilege is such a pain to deal with! When have I ever said I disapproved of men masturbating? I masturbate at least three times a week, and it pisses the shit out of me that so many men equate sex with porn I would be THRILLED if that’s what men were using, cave paintings–but we both know it’s not (and yes, it still would bother me for other guys to see me with my a guys dick in my mouth via amateur porn–bottom line, you don’t know why the girl did that with her boyfriend, and again, women are under tons of pressure to have sex on men’s terms, men’s way). Sex feels way sexier to me when it’s private, and healthier, I don’t want other guys seeing what I do with a lover privately, and I feel there’s less and less space in this world for women like me. Read some Bob Jensen, John Kinsella, Russ Funk, Rich Leader–there are men in the world who’ve rejected porn because it hurts women, and they wanted a deeper, more pro-feminist sex life for themselves too. Last thing, I fucking HATE romance novels–that is trite, cliched shit that bores the hell out of me (porn is the same, it makes my clitoris shrivel down to nothing, and makes me feel scared of men as well as bored–the penis is always like this symbol of power in every scrap of porn I’ve ever seen); can you get rid of shit like 50 shades of grey for me though? Seriously, take the romance fiction, I don’t need it. I have a mind of my own. Could you stop using porn if you wanted to even? Anyway, again, I feel really attacked by the men on here, and it depresses me that men are so hooked on this stuff. I really have to be done because this conversation makes me feel tired and worn out and lonely as a woman. Lonely women and men have it hard, yes–it wouldn’t make me feel better to exploit and humiliate some young dudes on camera for money though, really, I’d just like to have a loving, loyal, non-macho, non porn using partner, and porn is a damned poor substitute for that!
Wow, from “scared and sad” to such vitriol. I’m not sure why you feel ridiculed, but that certainly wasn’t my intent. I’m also quite baffled as to why you feel “attacked.” Because I disagreed with some of what you wrote? Should I feel “attacked” because you disagree with me? You’ve gotta help us out here – who is attacking you? What did they say that you felt was an attack?
Here’s the thing, though. My response about the cave paintings was to your comment that pornography has only been around for “centuries.” Indeed, the earliest examples of human created art that we know of depict pornographic scenes. They leave those out of the text books, but you can find them online if you search. My point is that there was no golden age pre-pornography; porn has been with us always.
And surely you must know about the recent research on porn and relationships. Actually, there wasn’t any research because they couldn’t find a control group – all men had looked at porn. My advice to you, not that it was solicited, is to believe your partner when he tells you he doesn’t use porn, and not to go snooping. If you search, you’ll find that even the anti-porn crusaders get caught out using porn (hey, kinda like the anti-gay crusaders get caught with rent boys).
And not to get all “feminist cred” on you and everything, but not only have I read all of those authors you list, including the earlier authors you referenced, but also a whole lot more. I’ve listened to Katherine Wilson’s speeches. I’ve attended presentations given by Gail Dines. I watched countless hours of videos critiquing and defending the pornography industry. Heck, I even married a feminist, one who went to one of the seven sisters colleges, whose mother is a feminist, whose aunt runs a lesbian-feminist collective. And I, myself, count myself as a feminist.
I agree with a lot of what the anti-porn crusaders say. I think there are quite a few unsavory elements in the porn industry. I believe there is a lot of exploitation occurring. I believe there are a lot of women making ill-informed choices, or choices out of desperation or to fuel addictions. I believe a lot of porn depicts sexuality in unhealthy ways.
Where I break with them and you is that I don’t believe the answer is to condemn the entire art form. I don’t say “all porn is evil always.” Instead, I ask myself, “what would porn look like if it met my ethical standards?” And I determined that it would have five key qualities:
1) Profit would not be the driving motivation for producing it
2) All persons involved will have given authentic consent
3) It would depict authentic pleasure
4) All persons are treated with dignity and respect
5) The persons have real bodies unencumbered by saline and silicone
I think such a thing exists; what’s more, I think I’ve actually found some that fits all five criteria. Here’s the test I would pose to you: what would “ethical porn” look like for you? You don’t have to want to see such porn, only imagine its existence. If there is no such thing, if porn can never be ethical, then it’s a sign your position is closer to dogmatic thought than it is a result of rational analysis. And let’s be clear about one thing here: people don’t know about the etymology of the word pornography, let alone have it in mind when they watch it. Do you think one of my favorite websites, Cabin Porn, had prostitutes in mind when they named the website? Normal people (and I don’t count myself among that set) don’t use words with their etymologies in mind.
I’m finding your critiques of the commenters here to be off the mark. I count only three men who have replied to you – myself, Danny, and Archy – and I don’t see an attack among the responses. I see agreement on some points, and disagreement on others, and yet you claim we are attacking you. If you see a comment from one of us that represents an attack please point it out. Use the blockquote tag to quote it. You use it like this:
<blockquote>This is a quote of something someone else wrote</blockquote>
and it works like this:
I use this all the time to highlight something I’m responding to or a particular point of contention. I will often write things like, “I agree with you except when you say here…” and then use that blockquote tag to quote the section I disagree with. Is that what you consider an attack? That truly would be a curious take on discourse that I’ve yet to encounter.
“This site just feels like a bunch of men complaining about how tough life is for them and how easy women have it, which is about like white folks complaining about how life is so easy if you’re black–it’s absurd?”
Comparing men vs women to blacks vs whites is a true sign of ignorance. You can’t compare them, the oppression to a minority was much different to the oppression towards pretty much 50% of the population. Then you have to consider that men were actually oppressed by things like conscription whereas people were never opressed for being white. Maybe it’s absurd because very few people actually bother to study how bad men’s lives are, they just often assume men are in power so men get it great. Radfems especially that I have seen have been so blinded by their viewing of women as oppressed that they never truly understand how bad men can have their life. Hell I’ve never met one that knows in a 1 year period that men n women were raped at the same rate as the CDC stats show.
“And if you get tired of being alone, get off your lazy ass and go find a woman and if you want to see her naked and get turned on in her presence, well damn! WORK FOR THAT SHIT. You are not entitled to an endless parade of women. God, male privilege is such a pain to deal with!”
Go find a woman? Do you think it’s truly that easy for everyone to find a partner? My friend with disabilities and body deformation would love to know what he can do short of getting a new body to make himself attractive to women. A woman telling a man to go get a partner as if every man has a decent chance of finding one, and you call us entitled? Newsflash, some men try and try hard but still fail.
“and yes, it still would bother me for other guys to see me with my a guys dick in my mouth via amateur porn–bottom line, you don’t know why the girl did that with her boyfriend, and again, women are under tons of pressure to have sex on men’s terms, men’s way”
Yes because women are poor innocent angels and the big bad men oppress them n force them to be their sexual slaves, women can never decide to make porn because she wants to, it’s always because they were abused and act out their abuse right? You have one of the most misogynist views I’ve ever seen, it’s like women are children in your world, completely n utterly incapable of rational and adult-level thought or decision-making.
“Lonely women and men have it hard, yes–it wouldn’t make me feel better to exploit and humiliate some young dudes on camera for money though, really, I’d just like to have a loving, loyal, non-macho, non porn using partner, and porn is a damned poor substitute for that!”
A lot of men would love a partner, I’d love a partner but it’s actually quite hard to find one. The way you frame it as men using women though says quite a lot, do you really think most men want to use women? Do I use women when I look at amateur porn?
I can understand you have a lot of pain surrounding porn, but do you really think the majority of females feel the same way as you?
Yeah, I am really in agreement with StephanieC here. A couple cave drawing on the wall from yester-year is nothing like the medium we have today. I don’t fault people’s curiosity in sex. It just seems like voyerism is what people want their sexuality to be, it seems like there is a passiveness in sexuality today that didn’t exist before as much because people are using more visual mediums to self please. We are in a golden age of porn. A few short 20-30 years ago men were NOT THIS involved with porn. Today? I suspect that a lot of men are looking at a lot more porn then they ever had in history. It’s so available and he doens’t have to be accountable to anyone to pick it up. It’s fairly obvious to see the shift in the way men utilize porn today.
I am also in agreement with Stephanie about the level of attacking that is going on in this subject. There are a few posters that feel it’s their right to repeatidly label other people here. This is a very passionate subject but if we don’t start really listening to one another and leave off the labeling, we aren’g going to get very far. There are many things I have been told I am in regards to this subject that I thought really demeaning to me and I’ve done my best to ignore those comments. But at a certain point, it gets ridiculous.
I, like Stephanie, am left with a lot of the same impressions concerning male privilage and that it is running strong here right now.
“I am also in agreement with Stephanie about the level of attacking that is going on in this subject. There are a few posters that feel it’s their right to repeatidly label other people here.”
Who is attacking who? Do you mean me when I say you are womansplaining? If so I am trying to point out the arrogance in assuming what men think, feel or do, everytime I’ve seen men do this they’ve often been blasted as misogynist. You may not mean to do it but that is how it’s coming across, it doesn’t mean you can’t voice your opinion but it does very much sound at times like you are stating for a fact what men are doing, thinking, feeling, vs stating your opinion.
“We are in a golden age of porn. ”
Internet has made access of porn quite easy, so yeah we probably are. Human sexuality is extremely powerful and that is evident in how many people are making their own porn, it’s not necessarily a bad thing but we do need education to avoid the issues that can arise from it. Education on how to have good sex is sorely needed, the only education I got officially on the matter was how to avoid STI’s and how babies are made, how do we learn about sex? Porn, guide books or websites, and friends are the only way we are educated.
Why do you keep going on about males looking at porn though? A LOT of women are looking at it, they WANT to look at it, do so for their own pleasure, why this focus on males and male privilege? It sounds almost like you think only men are looking at it and using it? You do realize a lot of women use it right? And not because men are forcing them to?
I don’t agree with much of what Stephanie has said, she seems to think women are children without the intelligence to make their own decisions from what I can tell, that society is forcing women at gunpoint to think one way yet men are afforded free will even though they too have social pressures as women do. Maybe I misunderstand her but that’s the impression I get, that women haven’t got agency and to me that is misogynistic and treats like like children. Maybe I believe women are stronger than that? More intelligent than that? She is free to tell me otherwise, I am trying my best to understand her thoughts.
“There are many things I have been told I am in regards to this subject that I thought really demeaning to me and I’ve done my best to ignore those comments.”
You do realize you’ve said some extremely demeaning stuff that men have been calling you out on right? Hell it’s why I called you out on the womansplaining. What comments in particular are you referring to? We’re not going to rollover n just let comments that are close to bigotry slide, just as I don’t expect you or others to do. It’s possible there is a major miscommunication going on but ignoring the comments won’t help clear the air up.
First off – don’t insinuate that my beliefs are born from my need to be more popular with men. Please strike this thought from any further conversations you wish to have between us. I do not “pretend” my beliefs.
I’ve read a ton of Dworkin and Mackinnon (people you’ve quoted) and their work references exactly the message I conveyed in my post above. It’s their position that meaningful consent cannot exist in a culture of porn and male domination – not mine. Their position necessitates a state of false consciousness for any woman who makes decisions contrary to their world view.
This is a conversation – not an attack, no one is making fun of you. That you wish to categorize it as such is very odd to me. I don’t know why you would get depressed when sharing your ideas with people who have different viewpoints.
I like how someone against the removal of female agency, a radfem, takes away your agency by suggesting you’re trying to be popular with the boys….
Anyone who thinks meaninful consent isn’t possible in our western worlds for women really needs a wakeup call to reality. What’s with this whole view of women being the innocent lil flowers, men being the super-oppressors who force women into bed every time? It’s fucking disgusting, and misandrous AND misogynist all in one.
I get depressed when i feel totally alone. Pretty human, normal reaction. Again, I don’t get why you feel more like critiquing me as another woman rather than some of the outlandishly woman-hating shit men have said on here. We live in a patriarchal culture, and that shapes our desires and choices, women and men’s, yours and mine. I’m being called a misogynist by men, spoken too very condescendingly while you get their respect. Must feel good for you. Doesn’t for me though. I don’t think the desire to be popular with men is a conscious choice always, and I have done all sorts of things for male approval in my life. Misogyny is an internalized thing, not just the stuff you’re aware of. These men treat you with a great deal of respect. It feels good to be supported and agreed with, bad to be ostracized, alone, argued down. For you to act like my responding in that way is abnormal also feels hurtful. Enjoy these men, they clearly like you. I think it’s a form of sexism to expect me to be detached about an issue–namely pornography and men’s porn use–that has hurt and continues to hurt me deeply. Not every woman is able to experience it without pain the way you are. Goodbye.
Way to go out on a melodramatic note. I share Elisa’s opinion that you characterizing others engaging with you as an attack is very odd. For myself, I’ve always felt that if my beliefs wither and fade under outside critique then they weren’t worth holding in the first place. If, on the other hand, they hold up against questioning then they’re all the stronger for it. It’s an attitude I had hoped is learned by freshman year in college, but perhaps that hope is unfounded.
I swear I typed two esses there, elissa. Sorry about that.
Ok Stephanie – this exchange seems to be causing you undue stress, and I do get that you may be feeling like a lone ranger on here. This place can be pretty diverse.
No worries Nick. I have a similar issue with my keyboard – I need to strike the “s” key twice to get one “s” to publish on the internet. I’ve narrowed down the cause to my eating crumbly things over the keyboard.
I keep seeing this… women coming to this site and declaring that men’s honest thoughts and opinions are “depressing and hateful and make me sad.”
Should this be considered a shaming tactic? an attempt to get men to shut up and not express their views? Or is it just the usual entitlement attitude of “I’m not happy with what you said, so you’d damn well better do something about it”?
In my opinion, thise women, are people who somehow are bein hurt by porn or taught that porn is bad. I know tons of women who also watch porn or are not offended by it. So the position of some of the users on this site, is not universally applicable to all women. There are also guys who claim they dont watch porn and are opposed to it, but again their position are not applicable to all guys.
The analogy I make is the opposition lot of men (and women) have against feminism (who seems to be a cursed topik on this site, just like porn). Just look at the reaction of the guys and compare it to the reaction of the women opposing porn. Basically the same.
The only difference I see, is that guys at least are more willing to engage in a open discussion than women. Women on the other hand are more prone to throw hash judgements, without discussing. It may be cultural.
“women coming to this site and declaring that men’s honest thoughts and opinions are “depressing and hateful and make me sad. Should this be considered a shaming tactic?”
The “hateful” part, yes. The “makes me sad” part, no. That’s just women expressing their experience. When something makes you sad and depressed, it makes you sad and depressed. It doesn’t mean that the world has to change for you. Some empathy and understanding would be *nice* but it’s not a guarantee. Say, my hypothetical son chose to go to the army. It would make me sad and depressed, and I think I deserve to be able to express that. It’s still his decision, but it would make me feel so much better if he at least took into account how I felt. He doesn’t have to change his mind, but he shouldn’t think I’m a terrible person or an entitled b*tch for feeling something that I can’t help feeling and expressing it.
“Doesn’t for me though. I don’t think the desire to be popular with men is a conscious choice always, and I have done all sorts of things for male approval in my life”
You’re denying her agency, how is that not misogynistic? You’re ignoring what she is saying, you’re womansplaining her to boot. You’re TELLING HER THAT HER EXPERIENCE IS DIFFERENT TO WHAT SHE IS SAYING.
“Enjoy these men, they clearly like you. ”
You’re being sexist to her. How can you not see that?! It’s plainly obvious like the sky is blue.
“We live in a patriarchal culture, and that shapes our desires and choices, women and men’s, yours and mine. I’m being called a misogynist by men, spoken too very condescendingly while you get their respect.”
Because you’re being extremely sexist, to both men and women. Do you walk up to bees nests and slap them, then complain when they sting you? I find it disgusting how you’re dismissing Elissa’s opinion as not her own and just an attempt to get in with the men. It seriously is probably the most misogynist comment here.
” If women don’t want to do something in bed, men get to use their economic and social power to ensure that there is always SOME CLASS of women somewhere who will do what they want.”
Wow, really? you’re choosing this argument? Women have done this since time began, women use their dating power to find a partner who will behave how they want to get sex. Both men n women can goto a sex worker, both men and women can look at porn, yet you focus only on the men? Why? Do you think women rarely look at porn?
“Nowadays, we’re expected to be “enthusiastic” about having dick rammed way down our throats or getting fucked in the ass, and you basically have two choices–work yourself into a mindset of learning to experience your own subordination as sexual, or spend a hell of a lot of time alone.”
By who? I look at porn a lot and don’t expect women to be enthusastic about that, I’m not enthusiastic about that. How about you start asking men what they find sexy, get to know why they look at porn, it’s probably not as bad as you think.
Here you can start with me. I look at porn because I am single and I like to see videos where I can fantasize about being with a woman. I don’t get much sex, I guess you can call me both sex and intimacy starved, so it’s even more of a drawcard for me. The porn I look at is mostly egalitarian where possible, I do look at some porn which is only one partner getting oral (both male n female. I also look at solo women masturbating, and also engage in webcam to webcam/sexting occasionally with a good friend.
“Women would have a lot more leverage for getting the sex we want, which, yep, in my case is a hell of a lot gentler and more equal than what most men seem to value–if we didn’t have to contend with men’s ability to get a woman to do whatever they want via pornography.”
So basically, you’re a misandrist right? You see men more negatively than you see women? You think women’s sexuality is morally superior than men’s. Is this common with radical feminists because I consider it bigotry and have seen similar comments by radfems.
“I’m sick of adapting my sexuality to men’s just to be considered “more fun in bed”–what about what’s more fun for me as a feminist woman?”
A lot of men make compromises for their partners, do you think men get exactly what they want? Let them know what you want, it’s up to each person in a relationship to say what they want so they can both work out a happy middleground. How many men do you think are sick of having to adapt themselves to fit women’s view of sexuality? Why should a woman be entitled to get what she wants? This argument swings both ways and you have to remember these are individuals commenting here. Some want lots of sex, some want only a lil bit, some like oral, some don’t. A person who is fun to me in bed isn’t going to be fun to everyone else, the key is to find someone we’re compatible with.
” I am seriously scared and sad beyond belief if all this is supposed to be what passes for being a “good man”…This discussion feels too scary and depressing for me to continue with anymore, Thanks again to Erin for his comments and not making me defend a different take on porn all on my own. I’m done.”
You generalize badly about porn, is it no wonder you can’t see the benefits of porn? Erin is a female by the way, nice job at actually reading her comments.
” This guy seriously thinks women have all this power over men and are running the show–total sexism, and total obliviousness.”
Total sexism like how men have power over women under patriarchy? Or can’t women have power in your worldview? I see plenty of women have power in dating, even use sex as a weapon of control and abuse. If you want to see women having power then take a look at any relationship with a woman withholding sex and intimacy for a man, and the effect it has on him.
When you hear a man likes porn, do you automatically assume he’s into gaggers, hard anal sex, and degradation of women? If your answer to this is yes then congratulations on not understanding men.
I figured Erin was a woman. I can’t even find her comments on her, reading through a lot of yours and other guys, I get hung up. No I don’t think all men who use pornography are into overt violence, but Playboy was degrading enough to make me feel terrible as a little girl.
Can’t say I really looked at playboy, if I did it was just basically “look, boobies”, I was too young to be turned on by it. My porn started with internet porn and even then I was going for amateur porn as I felt the pro porn stuff felt too fake, too disconnected from reality. I only ever wanted to basically imagine being with a gf as I was single for a long time.
Nowadays, we’re expected to be “enthusiastic” about having dick rammed way down our throats or getting fucked in the ass, and you basically have two choices–work yourself into a mindset of learning to experience your own subordination as sexual, or spend a hell of a lot of time alone.
I actually kind of agree with you, here, Stephanie (although I’m a porn watcher myself.) I remember when I was 19, and first started having sex, my boyfriend jammed his dick down my throat without asking (after we’d had a big dinner), and I threw up all over him. I felt humiliated (luckily, he was a very nice guy and we had a good laugh about it later), but I couldn’t help feeling that something was wrong with me because I couldn’t immediately play the part of the porn star. Because something went wrong and I was no longer the fantasy he probably wanted. I’ve also had several experiences where a guy just tried to jam it up my ass with no lube, preparation, warning, communication (and I have a very small asshole, so it was very painful). I’m all about ‘good, giving, game’ ala Dan Savage. I’m 110% game for these things (love oral, learning to enjoy anal), but it won’t always be as seamless as in porn. Having to do a little work to get myself comfortable for new or uncomfortable experiences doesn’t mean that I’m not enthusiastic. And sometimes, I just want to be able focus on my pleasure instead of putting on a show for you. I’m definitely game for a show. I’m definitely game for rough (often times, I even need it). But sometimes, just let me relax and have an amazing orgasm. Just let me enjoy myself. It IS about you, but it’s not ALL about you. We’ll have some porn sex and I’ll love it. But occasionally, I’ll want some Boyz II Men sex (I’ll make love to you, like you want me to, and I’ll hold you tight, baby all through the night). Are you game for that too? Or should I look elsewhere?
It seems a bit manipulative to blame the woman. “Hey babe, you don’t have the right to feel uncomfortable or inadequate about this because you’re not able to excitedly do everything I want you to. If you could just do it and be 22 your whole life, we wouldn’t have to deal with this, jeez.”
I’m really sorry that happened to you Aya.That sounds awful, I’m so sorry. I would like to believe there are still some guys in the world who wouldn’t want to do that to a woman, who still like just being close and gentle, but I don’t know anymore. Linda Marciano who was in deep throat got away from the guy who made porn of her and was able to find a husband who loved her I guess, even though she ultimately committed suicide…nobody cares about that though, people just talk about what a classic that film was now and giving blowjobs has become pretty much mandatory for all straight women I feel like. If you don’t want to deep throat it, some other woman will…it’s just all this pressure.
My partner deepthroated me, but I’m not really that long, average size. I left it up to her, kept asking if she was ok and she was fine with it. I’m probably not long enough to be uncomfy so I guess that helped, but I didn’t force her into it. I did rest my hand on her head for a little bit but I was stroking her hair n scalp, she did the action itself. EVERYTHING we did we talked about first, “You can kiss me if you want”, “You can touch this if you want”. I left the ball in her court, I told her I was ok with whatever and it was up to her whether she wanted to try stuff or not.
Yeah, Archy. The importance here is consent and that’s how you do it. Deep throating is by no means ‘degrading.’ It can be extremely sexy. It’s just a matter of doing it in a way that makes both parties comfortable. It’s not one sided either. There could also be things that she might want to try that you’re not comfortable with (like that woman in another thread who requested a threesome, but her partner didn’t feel comfortable), and you’re allowed to say no too.
I remember when I was 19, and first started having sex, my boyfriend jammed his dick down my throat without asking (after we’d had a big dinner), and I threw up all over him.
I’m so you were put through such terrible treatment. And as a guy and porn watcher yes that is terrible treatment and speaks to just what Erin has been talking about when it comes to some of the guys that get unhealthy beliefs about sex from porn.
It’s one thing to see it in porn and want to bring it up in the actual bedroom but to just do it, that’s a fucking line one should never cross.
It’s one thing to see it in porn and want to bring it up in the actual bedroom but to just do it, that’s a fucking line one should never cross.
Danny, you are right on point. A lot of the people who do get sex education from porn really aren’t bad people, though. They just don’t KNOW. They haven’t had the experience or access to any real education about sex. And it’s not all men either. I’ve been having sex with a man who has watched his fair share of porn. He had spent a lot of years being single and needed the release. Yet, he’s also had experience with women in general, and is a very giving lover. He knows how to read cues, to listen to requests, to actually ask about the crazier things, and laugh when things don’t go seamlessly like in a production. His years of watching porn didn’t seem to affect him. When we do watch porn together, he makes SURE that I know, without a doubt, that I am far more beautiful to him than any girl we saw. And he doesn’t *need* it to enhance pleasure. He can get hard and cum just fine with only me. It’s more of an “added spice” occasionally than a compulsion. Even though the relationship itself is a mess, the sex life is great and frequent (at LEAST once a day at this point)–in large part because he makes me feel like the sexiest woman in the world.
Yet, I still see porn causing problems with other men. One of my friends (we’re close enough to talk about this kind of thing) told me how he ruined things with a girl because he couldn’t orgasm without porn. He said she was beautiful, did nothing wrong, but he was just so used to the porn dynamic and his own hand. A potential partner who watches a lot of it started telling me what he wanted to do to me. Now some of it might have been natural fantasy, but some of it was VERY obviously machismo and telling me what he would THINK I need to hear. That he was ‘the man’ and would throw me around and last for 4 hours, do stuff I can’t even say here, make me scream, and shove things into me without asking. He made it feel like sex would be him showing off and performing rather than a mutual, fun experience. It was just too much pressure put on me (and thinking he got a lot of it from porn just reminded me that I’d never be perfectly lit), so I lost interest in having sex with him.
It’s different for every person.
I meant to italicize your quote, Danny, but forgot. -_-
No problem. I’ll respond once I get home from work and can think.
A lot of the people who do get sex education from porn really aren’t bad people, though. They just don’t KNOW. They haven’t had the experience or access to any real education about sex.
True indeed. With the two guys you mention.
One of my friends (we’re close enough to talk about this kind of thing) told me how he ruined things with a girl because he couldn’t orgasm without porn. He said she was beautiful, did nothing wrong, but he was just so used to the porn dynamic and his own hand.
Here’s the thing. It would be easy to just point at him and say it’s because of the porn and manage to not mention what you say about not having any access to real experience or education. This guys would be written off as just another “loser” that masturbated to porn to the point that he doesn’t know what to do when with a real woman and act as if he was always that way.
Sexual experience with multiple people is supposed to be a multi-way street. Meaning that for your friend there short of actually meeting sex partners the only way he would gain any experience would be to become a rapist (which I’m sure most of us even in the tossing back and forth of comments can agree is wrong).
Well it doesn’t seem like that is really being taken into account when people point to guys like that and say that the reason he isn’t connecting with others when it comes to sex is because he is buried himself in his porn, when in a lot of cases its the other way around and he buried himself in his porn because he wasn’t meeting and connecting with others.
I think there is a problem of people being too quick to want to swoop in and pass judgement on guys like that without really trying to understand their situation. Oh they’ll repeat, “I get it. I really do.” until they are blue in the face but in the end I’m not sure they do since they seem to get the situation reversed as I showed in the paragraph above.
So yeah it would be real easy and quick to say that he ruined his time with that woman because of his porn watching but that leaves the question of what were his alternatives in a world that is pressuring him to be all about the sex (and I think this is a crucial difference between men and women when it comes to sex, yes women have challenges and difficulties but one thing women aren’t facing like men is the idea that going out and having lots of sex is a defining part of being a woman, in fact I understand that it’s actually the opposite problem from women where wanting to have sex is a mark against one’s womanhood) and in his reality he’s not meeting any sex partners.
As for your second guy.
He made it feel like sex would be him showing off and performing rather than a mutual, fun experience.
Chances are that is how he understood it to be. I know it’s not the same as what is expected of women but there is “performance” pressure for guys as well when it comes to sex.
Some actual education would do them both some good. But so far it seems that instead of education there is too much of a rush to just call these guys bad or accuse them of taking on bad ideas or harming women or embracing ideas that harm women or however they want to say it.
Yes it’s different for every person.
Oh and thanks for being able to say that these things are harmful to men without wrapping it in a bow of “it hurts women primarily…………..and somewhere down the line it affects men too……some…..”.
Aya, I have had simliar experiences to you with men just doing things to your body without asking you if you would even enjoy them. I see a lot of heavily influence in some men’s sexual actions that I do think come from porn. It sometimes feels like men don’t want you to be a human being but this thing they do things too to masturbate in or on. I think that porn disconnects in general so it doesnt’ surprise me that men fall victim to behaving this way sometimes.
I also sometimes wonder just how okay men really are with you not wanting to do the things they want to do. They may say it’s okay but I am sure sometimes they are disappointed that you don’t want to be and do all the crazy things they want you to do that they’ve seen in porn. They might not force you to do these things, they might talk to you about doing these things, but if they really want to do them, as a woman, a part of you can feel like your disappointing them. Who wants to feel like they are disappointing their partner? It’s just so over whelming all the things you are suppose to contend with as a woman and all the expectations on what you need to be or do to make it “fun”.
Aya: “And it’s not all men either. I’ve been having sex with a man who has watched his fair share of porn. He had spent a lot of years being single and needed the release. Yet, he’s also had experience with women in general, and is a very giving lover. He knows how to read cues, to listen to requests, to actually ask about the crazier things, and laugh when things don’t go seamlessly like in a production. His years of watching porn didn’t seem to affect him. When we do watch porn together, he makes SURE that I know, without a doubt, that I am far more beautiful to him than any girl we saw. And he doesn’t *need* it to enhance pleasure. He can get hard and cum just fine with only me. It’s more of an “added spice” occasionally than a compulsion. Even though the relationship itself is a mess, the sex life is great and frequent (at LEAST once a day at this point)–in large part because he makes me feel like the sexiest woman in the world.”
I personally think that alot of men give women lip service about teling them how beautiful they are or stuff a long this lines. Not because they really think that but because they are trying to perform for her and give her compliments he thinks she wants to here. I know that this line of thinking is cynical but rarely do I think men think their own partner is truly more beautiful then the milliosn of options they are looking at regularly through porn. There are always going to be other women he sees he likes more. But somehow, as a woman, you’re suppose to ignore that. I just don’t know how men expect you to ignore that. Or take him for his word when he is seeking out all kinds of visuals of different tpes of women that are nothing cloes to what you are. Especially if the visuals he is seeking out are of younger women with perfect bodies which is stil one of the most pervelant forms of porn out there. I know it’s cynical of me but I sometimes think men just shower their partner with compliments because he wants to keep the peace with her AND still enjoy his pornography at the same time. To me, I sense a lack insincerity with men concerning their porn use and how they see their real partners. There are studies done that talk about how much more negative men are toward their own partner after viewing porn. They criticsize her more and judge her more harshly. I can totally see why this would happen. And I think this happens more then we want to admit to ourselves, both men AND women.
“I personally think that alot of men give women lip service about teling them how beautiful they are or stuff a long this lines. ”
Wow, some women really do want to be the special woman that no one else is more beautiful than? Just how entitled do you feel to be the most beautiful woman on Earth?
There is ALWAYS going to be a more physically attractive person than you. You will age, your looks will fade, but attraction isn’t all about looks. Believe it or not but men are also attracted to personalities and I dare say most people in love think their lover is the most beautiful person anyway.
What is with the NEED to be seen as perfect to your partner? All I’m seeing is this entitled feeling some women have where they expect to be the most beautiful woman on Earth to their partner, to be special, to be irreplaceable. Well sorry but no one is like that. Love is a powerful bond yes, it’s hard to think people can be replaced but people do love more than once, it’s possible you may both live happily ever after together or you may split n find new love. You don’t have to be the most beautiful woman to be special to someone! A man who finds another woman more physically attractive doesn’t mean he wants her, nor does it mean she is overall more attractive than you, especially when he is in love with you.
This study you keep talking about, LINK IT. Does it say EVERY man is like that, or just some? Because unless more than 50% + do it then it’s only true for a minority of men.
“I sense a lack insincerity with men concerning their porn use and how they see their real partners”
Might be true for some, but not all. Why such a focus on one part of attraction anyway? Don’t you value more than your looks?
“Wow, some women really do want to be the special woman that no one else is more beautiful than? Just how entitled do you feel to be the most beautiful woman on Earth?”
I never said that a woman wanted to be the most beautiful woman on Earth. I said she wanted to be the most beautiful woman to her man. She doesn’t ask the whole world to think she is gorgeous. Why is that “entitled”? Telling a woman she is simply entitled because she wants to be the most beautiful woman to her man is like telling a man he is entitled because blow jobs turn him on. Being beautiful to her man turns her on. But she is somehow evil for wanting that I guess.
I think it’s really unfair that men get to judge women and their femininity by their looks but women are not allowed to feel beautiful and feminine in a man’s appreciation of her looks. I think it’s really unfair that we demand women experience a higher evolution of self acceptance when men don’t even know how to accept women for wh othe yreally are in real life for their real bodies and their real sexuality. I think it’s crappy that we tell women that they are “shallow” for worrying about their looks but we justify men looking at 18 year old twins with implants making out with each other.
Archy: “There is ALWAYS going to be a more physically attractive person than you.”
I never said different. There will also be many men that purposely seek out visuals of other much more physically attractive women then their own partners because their partner isn’t good enough for them alone.
Archy: “You will age, your looks will fade, but attraction isn’t all about looks. Believe it or not but men are also attracted to personalities and I dare say most people in love think their lover is the most beautiful person anyway.”
I will remember that as I get older and my looks fade and my man is telling me how attracted he is for my “personality” after I catch him watching 18-25 year old young women with nice little bodies in pornography.
Archy: “What is with the NEED to be seen as perfect to your partner?”
Huh? I never said that.
Archy: “ All I’m seeing is this entitled feeling some women have where they expect to be the most beautiful woman on Earth to their partner, to be special, to be irreplaceable. Well sorry but no one is like that. “
Okay. Got the message loud and clear. A woman isn’t special, irreplaceable or beautiful to her partner. He will always find other women more beautiful and just as special and possible interchangeable to take her place. Message received.
Archy: “Love is a powerful bond yes, it’s hard to think people can be replaced but people do love more than once, it’s possible you may both live happily ever after together or you may split n find new love.”
Oh okay. So women should stop wanting to feel special and close to their partner because hey..one day they may break up and hey, people can love more then one person. I will start stuffing those feelings I have to want to be special to one man down very deep so that none of my needs regarding that are ever met because hey, men need porn.
Archy: “You don’t have to be the most beautiful woman to be special to someone! A man who finds another woman more physically attractive doesn’t mean he wants her, nor does it mean she is overall more attractive than you, especially when he is in love with you.”
It just means that sometimes he wants to masturbate to her and imagine himself with her for a short time when your sick or on the rag. *thumbs up sign*
Archy: “This study you keep talking about, LINK IT. Does it say EVERY man is like that, or just some? Because unless more than 50% + do it then it’s only true for a minority of men.”
How about you start linking scientific data for your comments. Or am I on the only one that is held up to that standard while you get to say whatever you want with no scientific facts to back it up?
Archy: “Might be true for some, but not all. Why such a focus on one part of attraction anyway? Don’t you value more than your looks?”
Yeah you know what Arch. You are right. I don’t value myself more then my looks. You are so much a better man then I am woman because you just love and appreciate women so much and all the variety they offer you in their looks .But you aren’t shallow for wanting to experience such a wide variety of different looks in women. However I am shallow because A) I want to be beautiful to my man B) I want to be special to my man C) I don’t want to settle for being told how shallow I am for wondering and questioning how men view women through porn yet he is a kind well rounded individual that simply love sand appecriates so many different types of women he just needs to look at so much variety in looks in women because he values women so much.
“I think it’s really unfair that men get to judge women and their femininity by their looks but women are not allowed to feel beautiful and feminine in a man’s appreciation of her looks. I think it’s really unfair that we demand women experience a higher evolution of self acceptance when men don’t even know how to accept women for wh othe yreally are in real life for their real bodies and their real sexuality. I think it’s crappy that we tell women that they are “shallow” for worrying about their looks but we justify men looking at 18 year old twins with implants making out with each other.”
Generalize some more why don’t you, of course you’re going to feel inadequate if you compare yourself to extremely beautiful women on your looks alone. Very few women win the genetic lotto + have the lifestyle that supports being in that super-hot category of people. But do you think a guy or girl looking at porn of those super hotties ONLY finds them attractive? It’s purely physical attraction at play, it can’t compare to things like love, or a combination of being physically and mentally attracted to someone.
“I said she wanted to be the most beautiful woman to her man.”
That’s where the feelings of love play a part, they boost her beauty A LOT. It’s the only way to keep that feeling of your partner being the most beautiful, and it’s not because of their looks. Human’s aren’t that shallow on the whole. If you also mean only have eyes for your partner, well humans vary there with polygamy, etc. I know that being in love makes me far less attracted to others and I have no desire to be with others, but that’s not based on her looks at all.
Do you see why it’s pointless to compare your beauty to the pornstar? Those feelings of love are what make her the most beautiful, but if you went solely on physical attraction without those feelings of love then yeah lil miss perfect 18 probably beats a lot of women in looks. Does it make lil miss more beatiful than his partner? No. Hence why I said the 170 190 and 2000 or whatever attraction level. It’s the sum of a persons attraction, that emotional attraction + physical, the bonding chemicals or whatever magic happens is far far far far greater than physical attraction to lil miss 18 perfect body. Hence why I find it absolutely pointless to compare yourself to her. If she is there, a friend to him, where he could grow all of the other attraction n love etc then yeah I’d be worried but even then most people tend to be monogymous and still she wouldn’t compare. But our values probably differ, I don’t care if my partner masturbates to porn even if the guy is superhot, but if she doesn’t find me attractive then I’ll worry.
“I will remember that as I get older and my looks fade and my man is telling me how attracted he is for my “personality” after I catch him watching 18-25 year old young women with nice little bodies in pornography.”
That’s up to you both to solve, but still it doesn’t make you ugly. Many variables at play, is he choosing porn more than you? Is it interfering with your relationship? Are you a few years older or a decade or two than those in the video? I do understand how that is concerning, I also understand not everyone finds that concerning so hence it’s up to the couple to work out.
“Okay. Got the message loud and clear. A woman isn’t special, irreplaceable or beautiful to her partner. He will always find other women more beautiful and just as special and possible interchangeable to take her place. Message received.”
Granted, what I said came out wrong. Each love is special, irreplaceable, unique, but you can love again is more of what I mean to say. The woman I loved is unique, extremely special, at the time she was the most beautiful but who knows, I may fall in love again and feel that for another, but they will be beautiful in a different way. I don’t believe in there being only one true love, someone so special that you could never ever feel that again for someone else. Does that make more sense? The entitlement I was describing felt more like these women were feeling they were the very best and never ever could someone feel that way for another. To be the most beautiful, most special in someones life. Yeah it works out that way for some, they’ll stay together for ever but shit happens too, death, breakups, feelings change, it’s nice to think we’re irreplaceable as a partner, as someones one and only desire. Does that make more sense? Basically I mean we don’t have one love in our heart and if that get’s used up then no more falling in love again.
“Oh okay. So women should stop wanting to feel special and close to their partner because hey..one day they may break up and hey, people can love more then one person. I will start stuffing those feelings I have to want to be special to one man down very deep so that none of my needs regarding that are ever met because hey, men need porn.”
I’ve explained it in the worst possible way, and re-reading it I am pretty clueless as to why I even worded that comment that way, it sounds pretty damn disgusting so I apologize for the terrible explanation. I’ll try clarify.
Nothing wrong with wanting to feel special and close to their partner, I’m saying you may not be someones only love if something does happen. But what I find troubling is the need to have everyone else be a zero on attraction, that’s the entitlement I meant, I dunno how to describe it better. It’s like expecting someone to disable their sex drive when you aren’t around and never be aroused by the sight of someone else. Our values here probably differ, my partner can look at porn if she wants but no more than that, and not porn of people she knows. Basically no cheating, but fantasize about strangers if she wants, I don’t care all that much. Fantasies and truly desiring are 2 different things, if that makes sense. The old, “you can look but don’t touch”? An expectation to be ONLY EVER turned on by your partner, to me it feels like entitlement, but I can understand why it is desirable.
“It just means that sometimes he wants to masturbate to her and imagine himself with her for a short time when your sick or on the rag. *thumbs up sign*”
I guess. It’ll bother some people but others are ok with it. You in particular don’t have to put up with it, and this is only some men we’re talking about (and women).
“How about you start linking scientific data for your comments. Or am I on the only one that is held up to that standard while you get to say whatever you want with no scientific facts to back it up?”
You make a wild claim of men being less attracted, so yeah you better link the study if you want me to take you seriously. If I make a statement like that, ask me for the study and I will link it. But do you see me saying studies show women do X? Pretty much the only time I mention studies on here is the abuse data and I’ve linked many many studies for those.
“Yeah you know what Arch. You are right. I don’t value myself more then my looks. You are so much a better man then I am woman because you just love and appreciate women so much and all the variety they offer you in their looks .But you aren’t shallow for wanting to experience such a wide variety of different looks in women. However I am shallow because A) I want to be beautiful to my man B) I want to be special to my man C) I don’t want to settle for being told how shallow I am for wondering and questioning how men view women through porn yet he is a kind well rounded individual that simply love sand appecriates so many different types of women he just needs to look at so much variety in looks in women because he values women so much.”
Oh quit playing the victim. Where did I say I was a better man? You’re putting words into my mouth and not debating in good faith here. Nearly everything you talk about on this topic has to do with looks to the point you grossly generalize about what men want, what they like, and you even have the gall to tell me what they think.
I try to be sincere about my porn use, but quite frankly women like yourself make me want to keep it to myself. You misread my comments and others here, misunderstand us, generalize heavily, state facts without any evidence and then demonize us. Take a wild guess why men are reluctant to open up about their porn use, this issue is getting very heated and there isn’t much point in discussing it anymore. When you start putting words into my mouth so heavily I can’t see any more point to this discussion, if I have done the same to you than I apologize and please call me out on it so I can adjust my behavior. All I can say is everyone is different, talk with your partner and work it out from there. What I like, what I want, the stuff I’d do in a relationship will only be acceptable to some women, others will hate me for it, just as I’d hate them for some stuff yet other women would be ok for me. Porn use isn’t a big issue for me, and I doubt I’d wanna look at it anyway, some couples are ok with it, some aren’t. Try not to judge men from what you think they want in porn, try listen to what they want instead of telling us. You haven’t got a clue what I want from porn, that much is obvious.
“Generalize some more why don’t you….”
I will, thank you. I have never shied away from the fact that I sometimes make generalizations. That’s how I talk about topics. It’s not going to change no matter how often you try to shame me for it.
“..of course you’re going to feel inadequate if you compare yourself to extremely beautiful women on your looks alone. Very few women win the genetic lotto + have the lifestyle that supports being in that super-hot category of people. But do you think a guy or girl looking at porn of those super hotties ONLY finds them attractive? It’s purely physical attraction at play, it can’t compare to things like love, or a combination of being physically and mentally attracted to someone.”
And yet, despite men having partners they are mentally and physically attached to, a lot of men still look at other women and porn. So apparently it’s not really a matter of mental and physical attraction being “better”. Because if it was, once a man had that, he wouldn’t look at porn. But many men in relationships still do.
Regardless of al that, I said my piece on this already above. There is something you fundamentally may not understand about women and their own sets of needs in a relationship.
“Do you see why it’s pointless to compare your beauty to the pornstar? Those feelings of love are what make her the most beautiful, but if you went solely on physical attraction without those feelings of love then yeah lil miss perfect 18 probably beats a lot of women in looks.”
You aren’t going to rationalize away the fact that women will infact compare themselves to what men are attracted to! It is a way to factor in how you fit into it and a way to figure out your own sexuality.
You consistently defend men’s attraction to other women and even younger hotter women. Yet you leave no room to understand where that puts a woman.
Is it pointless to compare yourself to other women? No. It’s natural. And it’s a natural reaction when you see your partner looking at other women and you are trying to figure out where that puts you. Stop acting like what women do when they compare is “wrong” and “pointless” but what men do when they lust after other women is “right” and “okay”.
If men are so much in favor of little miss perfect 18 year old, then that’s what he should go for! He shouldn’t settle for someone that isn’t what he really wants and then seek that out through other mediums to meet whatever desire or need he really wants from women. He doesn’t have to hurt his own partner this way. He has a choice. Unfortunately, even 18 year olds get older but he can always dump her when she gets too old and go for the next new 18 year old. At least he isn’t pretending anything. At least he doesn’t have to rate women in numbers about who is better then the other.
“Does it make lil miss more beatiful than his partner? No. Hence why I said the 170 190 and 2000 or whatever attraction level. “
I don’t get why it’s okay for you to compare women to the extent you get to label them with numbers of their physical worth to you but women aren’t suppose to compare themselves to each other because it’s pointless in your opinion. So basically you comparing women is okay but women comparing themselves to other women isn’t okay. Do you see how wrong and unfair that is for you to say?
You said that younger women beat out other women. Why do you get to label women with numbers anyway? Why are you so special that you get to tell women their physical worth through a numbering scale? How about you and every man on this site start disclosing your early incomes and bank accounts and the women here can start labling you guys with numbers based on how we perceive your worth financially as potential partners. Would you and the other guys here feel good about that? Lets start dishing numbers of your worth based on your paychecks.
“Hence why I find it absolutely pointless to compare yourself to her. If she is there, a friend to him, where he could grow all of the other attraction n love etc then yeah I’d be worried but even then most people tend to be monogymous and still she wouldn’t compare. But our values probably differ, I don’t care if my partner masturbates to porn even if the guy is superhot, but if she doesn’t find me attractive then I’ll worry.”
Yes, you think it’s pointless for women to compare themselves to other women but it’s perfectly okay for you and other men to make comparisons about women’s looks against one another. Hence why it’s okay for you to number women based on what you think is their physical worth to you.
Most porn is made for men and male fantasies exclusively over women. Of course you don’t care if a woman masturbates to porn. Most porn is made for men. The woman is usually the object in the movie. Even if there are shots of the guy, the woman is usually the object.
“The entitlement I was describing felt more like these women were feeling they were the very best and never ever could someone feel that way for another. To be the most beautiful, most special in someones life. Yeah it works out that way for some, they’ll stay together for ever but shit happens too, death, breakups, feelings change, it’s nice to think we’re irreplaceable as a partner, as someones one and only desire. Does that make more sense? Basically I mean we don’t have one love in our heart and if that get’s used up then no more falling in love again.”
I never said we had “one love in our heart”. I said that most women want to feel like the most special and beautiful woman to her man. I was not talking about all the variables about the ins and outs of why people break up. That wasn’t germane to my conversation. Women fundamentally want to be very beautiful to their partners.
“But what I find troubling is the need to have everyone else be a zero on attraction, that’s the entitlement I meant, I dunno how to describe it better. It’s like expecting someone to disable their sex drive when you aren’t around and never be aroused by the sight of someone else. “
Again, I never said someone wasn’t not suppose to be ever attracted to someone else every again.
“You make a wild claim of men being less attracted, so yeah you better link the study if you want me to take you seriously.”
It wasn’t a “wild claim” and I feel like you are putting me down.
“If I make a statement like that, ask me for the study and I will link it.”
You make statements like that all the time. I just don’t demand you scientifically back everything up.
Nearly everything you talk about on this topic has to do with looks to the point you grossly generalize about what men want, what they like, and you even have the gall to tell me what they think”
You think your generalizations are okay but mine aren’t.
I try to be sincere about my porn use, but quite frankly women like yourself make me want to keep it to myself.
Would you prefer I hide what I really think and feel about this subject so that you feel more confident in expressing yourself?
Men like yourself make me not want to be vulnerable and open with men at all myself. I guess we are even.
It sounds like you only want to be able to express your real and true feelings and opinions but you don’t want the same , at least from me, in return.
“You misread my comments and others here, misunderstand us, generalize heavily, state facts without any evidence and then demonize us. “
You have also misread comments, misunderstood, generalized and stated facts without any evidence and demonized me.
Take a wild guess why men are reluctant to open up about their porn use, this issue is getting very heated and there isn’t much point in discussing it anymore.
It’s all women’s fault why men don’t open up about their porn use. Next time a man tells me how much hotter 18 year olds are I will smile and tell him what a wonderful man he is right before a spread my legs. Would that be a better reaction?
It seems to me that while a lot of guys, like yourself, want to be honest about your thoughts and feelings on porn and share them, you don’t seem to want to deal with honesty in return even if all the thoughts and feelings aren’t completely positive.
“Try not to judge men from what you think they want in porn, try listen to what they want instead of telling us. You haven’t got a clue what I want from porn, that much is obvious.
Read more at “
It is hard not to judge men when you see very clear signals about what they like shown in porn Archy. And when those signals often surround their desires about what men are wishing women are or doing to please them.
I also find it difficult that you are telling me that I shouldn’t judge men but you have been very vocal about the ways men judge women. Such as your judgement of me about me being the reason you don’t want to be open about porn. Or the millions of other judgements you’ve made of me. Or the judgements men make when they begin numbering women’s looks by the quality of her face and body according to him. Those are all judgments! It appears to me that you think your judgements are okay to make but mine aren’t. Men don’t want to be judged for their porn use but they are judging and cataloging women by their bodies through porn. That’s not fair.
I’ve suggested this before, but why don’t you and Archy just argue this offline? It is obviously very personal to both of you and the same arguments come up again and again here on the threads. I’m not sure that there is a reconciliation possible without personal communication.
“And yet, despite men having partners they are mentally and physically attached to, a lot of men still look at other women and porn. So apparently it’s not really a matter of mental and physical attraction being “better”. Because if it was, once a man had that, he wouldn’t look at porn. But many men in relationships still do. ”
This is a tough one to answer, I have a feeling that many humans are more poly than monogymous. But I see members of both sexes still looking at porn, and members of the sex they’re attracted to even on the street. I think some don’t see the looking as a big deal but it depends on their partner, 2 people that enjoy porn can look but don’t touch and get along fine.
“You consistently defend men’s attraction to other women and even younger hotter women. Yet you leave no room to understand where that puts a woman. ”
I’m not trying to defend it, especially attraction to younger women, trying to explain why it happens for some men. I think people should be most attracted to their partner but I find it difficult to pass judgment on those with more polygymous tendancies hence why it’s important for the couple to work it out. If one partner hates it though, they need to work out how to fix it and I don’t think it’s good to look at porn if your partner hates it.
“You aren’t going to rationalize away the fact that women will infact compare themselves to what men are attracted to! It is a way to factor in how you fit into it and a way to figure out your own sexuality. ”
It’s not a great guide to go from though, what I find sexy in porn actually differs a bit to what I find sexy in real life and the women who I would approach for a relationship. I have fantasized about much older women, but I wouldn’t date them as I want someone my own age to try find love, build a family, grow old together with and not have a huge age gap to deal with. You can get an idea of what I find sexy in porn, or even maybe just a sexual sense from what porn I watch, but it’s not a perfect guide. What do you do if your partner likes furies? The animal-human hybrid cartoon porn pictures, or fantasizes about vampires? You can maybe play dressup for fantasy but do you feel bad about yourself because you aren’t a vampire? What if he gets off to gay porn but is a straight male? What about women who fantasize about rape, should their men feel bad because they don’t rape them or even consider raping them? Fantasy is not reality, some things carry through to the real world but not all of it does.
“Is it pointless to compare yourself to other women? No. It’s natural. And it’s a natural reaction when you see your partner looking at other women and you are trying to figure out where that puts you. Stop acting like what women do when they compare is “wrong” and “pointless” but what men do when they lust after other women is “right” and “okay”. ”
I dunno if it’s right or wrong, I think it’s fairly normal considering how many men and women do it. But be careful with comparing yourself to porn is basically all I can say now, you may be right in what you guess or you may be horribly wrong. You sound like you’re very monogymous, which is perfectly fine, you need to find someone similar to you. I think there is a problem with let’s say there is a scale, 0 – 100, 0 being polygymous, 100 being monogymous, a 90 marries a 20, the 20 looks at others, the 90 feels jealous and hurt (which is also normal), so what should they do? Either they compromise n try head to acceptance of the 20 becoming a 50 or higher, and the 90 lowers down a bit to be more accepting of the poly behaviour. Or they split up, or they stay together n have a bunch of arguments n feel bad. Sexual compatibility here matters a lot, so maybe those people who are upset with their partners porn use are unlucky and aren’t fully compatible. They need to work out what is ok and what isn’t.
“If men are so much in favor of little miss perfect 18 year old, then that’s what he should go for! He shouldn’t settle for someone that isn’t what he really wants and then seek that out through other mediums to meet whatever desire or need he really wants from women. He doesn’t have to hurt his own partner this way. He has a choice. Unfortunately, even 18 year olds get older but he can always dump her when she gets too old and go for the next new 18 year old. At least he isn’t pretending anything. At least he doesn’t have to rate women in numbers about who is better then the other. ”
Thing is he may only want them in fantasy, or may only be attracted to them in a sexual way, whereas they have a full range of attraction (physical n mental) for women his age. Again you’re focusing purely on the looks n age here, people can look, fantasize, masturbate to people they have no intention of dating or who they aren’t even compatible with for dating. Lust can be very shallow that way, but he can also be extremely attracted to women his age, or older. Not all men are in favour of little miss perfect 18 year old, that was only one example for ONE MAN not all men or the majority of men.
“I don’t get why it’s okay for you to compare women to the extent you get to label them with numbers of their physical worth to you but women aren’t suppose to compare themselves to each other because it’s pointless in your opinion. So basically you comparing women is okay but women comparing themselves to other women isn’t okay. Do you see how wrong and unfair that is for you to say?”
I am trying to explain attraction, it’s very very difficult! Comparing is useful sometimes, in this case simply to explain why someone can be physically attracted to supermodels whilst their overall attraction to their partner is a huge amount more. I didn’t say it’s pointless to compare yourself to other women overall, I meant pointless to compare to women in porn, do you understand the difference? I understand why people compare, I do it myself, I compare myself to men a lot, but to compare myself to the men in a medium for fantasy I don’t feel is very good as it’s only comparing 1 system of attraction that may or may not be representative of her feelings to the men she meets or me. She may get off to rape fantasies, but have no attraction to rapists. Maybe she likes SEEING huge penisis from an aesthetic meets sexual point of view, but doesn’t like them as they’re too big for her. Not everything we fantasize about is what we want in reality, I dunno how many times I have to say that for it to sink in. Comparing yourself to fantasy is only gonna hurt you, I’m not saying it’s wrong to do so, but it’s pointless. Fantasy reachs closer to perfection because it’s not limited by reality, but pretty much everyone understands it’s fantasy and that it won’t happen.
“You said that younger women beat out other women. Why do you get to label women with numbers anyway? Why are you so special that you get to tell women their physical worth through a numbering scale? How about you and every man on this site start disclosing your early incomes and bank accounts and the women here can start labling you guys with numbers based on how we perceive your worth financially as potential partners. Would you and the other guys here feel good about that? Lets start dishing numbers of your worth based on your paychecks. ”
It depends upon the person of course and what they find attractive, I also said little miss perfect 18, not just miss 18, meaning the women who are at the peak of beauty in our current culture which favours youthful skin, perfectly toned bodies, etc. By the way, the numbers are subjective, IT DEPENDS UPON THE PERSON. 100 to one person is 500 to another. I hate using numbers but I don’t know any other way to try explain attraction, I can say moderately attractive, very attracted, but that’s just another scale of attraction. What do you want me to do? Lie about attraction? Say that physical looks mean nothing? SOME men like older women, some like younger women, some like the same, some like a mix, it’s impossible to judge all men and women the same. I am not attracted to every woman, that doesn’t mean her worth is lower as there will be other guys attracted to her, the numbers are simply to describe a person’s attraction. There are some women who are high on physical attraction to quite a lot of people, the conventionally beautiful women.
Many women already do compare men on finances, would you date a man without a job? Are you attracted to men who have no money of their own and are dependant? The men you date, do you feel they are more attractive than other men you meet? Would you date a man who is super obese or had something that made him physically unattractive to you?
“Most porn is made for men and male fantasies exclusively over women. Of course you don’t care if a woman masturbates to porn. Most porn is made for men. The woman is usually the object in the movie. Even if there are shots of the guy, the woman is usually the object. ”
Stop assuming what I care about.
“It wasn’t a “wild claim” and I feel like you are putting me down.”
Why?
“You make statements like that all the time. I just don’t demand you scientifically back everything up.”
I asked for the study to back it up, feel free to ask for what data I use.
“Take a wild guess why men are reluctant to open up about their porn use, this issue is getting very heated and there isn’t much point in discussing it anymore.
“It sounds like you only want to be able to express your real and true feelings and opinions but you don’t want the same , at least from me, in return.”
When did I say that? I’m saying that if you go about it in the way you do quite often, don’t be surprised if they stop opening up. When you say stuff like how “porn shames everything about what real women are.” you simply generalize negatively and shame the man. You may not think generalizing is bad, but you have multiple commenters here telling you that you’re demonizing or misunderstanding them whilst also generalizing, don’t you see it’s harming the communication? And yes if I am doing it, point it out, I am trying to reduce my own generalizations which is hard when you live in a society that uses them heavily.
It’s all women’s fault why men don’t open up about their porn use. Next time a man tells me how much hotter 18 year olds are I will smile and tell him what a wonderful man he is right before a spread my legs. Would that be a better reaction? ”
See, you go straight to the “it’s all the women’s fault” bullshit when I didn’t say that at all. Incase you didn’t notice, what makes me want to keep quiet are the reactions of some women who will literally try demonize me over it, others have thanked me for opening up but the demonizations still make me feel more guarded about it. This plays more importance in a relationship if the partner is one of those men or women that demonize it, it will shame the other partner and they will keep quiet. At least on here other women are thanking me and giving me indication that there is some point to talking about it.
“You have also misread comments, misunderstood, generalized and stated facts without any evidence and demonized me. ”
Point it out and I’ll try to change my tune, which I am doing. You have to realize that I am not talking universally about men, and often I am only talking about individual men, which is why I am surprised when you think I am talking about most or all men and when you say “it’s all women’s fault” stuff I truly wonder if you have understood me or if I am completely shit at communicating my point. I am trying desperately here to explain it, but it’s very difficult because attraction is extremely difficult to explain. There are so many variables at play!
“I also find it difficult that you are telling me that I shouldn’t judge men but you have been very vocal about the ways men judge women. Such as your judgement of me about me being the reason you don’t want to be open about porn. Or the millions of other judgements you’ve made of me. Or the judgements men make when they begin numbering women’s looks by the quality of her face and body according to him. Those are all judgments! It appears to me that you think your judgements are okay to make but mine aren’t. Men don’t want to be judged for their porn use but they are judging and cataloging women by their bodies through porn. That’s not fair.”
Ok I’ll reword it, try not to judge men negatively from what you think they want from porn, try listen what they want instead of telling us. I didn’t say don’t judge men fullstop. I’m saying find out what men want, then judge from that. I’ve already said I don’t like judging women based on numbers, I don’t like when people call others a 6 or a 10, I used numbers to try say what an individual persons attraction is like. We all feel varying levels of attraction for others, the difference is when you call them a 6 and others do it you’re labeling their worth based on their looks alone. What I am saying is pretty much trying to describe the arousal state in numerical form, like an engine with it’s RPM, trying to say that solely relying on physical attraction alone only gets that engine to lets say 1000rpm, yet add in mental attraction, love, etc and you have that engine redlining at 8000. Not that the woman herself is a 200!
“I’ve suggested this before, but why don’t you and Archy just argue this offline? It is obviously very personal to both of you and the same arguments come up again and again here on the threads. I’m not sure that there is a reconciliation possible without personal communication.”
I don’t think there is a reconciliation possible, so I’m gonna try remove myself from the convo. We’re trying to explain extremely complex systems to each other and it’s probably impossible to explain.
“In this culture, if a woman is considered too fat, old, ugly or unattractive to get a guy, tough, she has to deal with it. Men should have to do the same, and they did perfectly fine for centuries without pornography.”
Number 1 selling book in the UK was a porn novel for women. Your point is pretty null n voided considering how much fantasy material exists for women and considering how many women now look at porn. Those “fat, old, ugly women” can also buy vibrators, and sex toys that give more pleasure than male based ones I’d say, should they NOT be allowed to buy them? Show women be banned from looking at porn?
And speaking as a fat man, why do you think I look at porn? Fat women are just as capable of finding material for masturbation as I am, hell they can use a vibrator whilst I have to use my hand.
Do you even know any fat men n what they go through or do you just assume women get it worse?
women do what we think will make men love us Archy.
“women do what we think will make men love us Archy.”
Some do, and some men do the same. I know of many men that tirelessly devote themselves to their partner. You do realize men do a lot to try get women to love them, just as women do the same? We’re not actually all that different?
Nobody likes bad sex, but I don’t think bad sex is unique to this era. I have mixed feelings about porn, as I’ve said in earlier comments. However, I started haing sex before the Internet age (I’m 45) and there was bad sex and selfish lovers back then too. We used to complain about “wham bam thank you ma’am” sex. Now maybe the complaints are about overly athletic, disconnected, porn-y sex. But the underlying issues are the same. I’ve learned over the years that, yes, some guys are just selfish in bed. But most guys desperately want to please their partner, they just don’t know how. The solution to the first kind of person is to dump him. The solution to the second kind of person is to teach him what you like.
Also, we can argue all we like about male social and economic power but at the end of the day, women still have the power to say “no.” If you don’t like rough anal or having a dick shoved down your throat, then don’t do it! If a guy cares about you, he will work with you to have sex that pleases both of you. Yes it’s important to be “good giving and game” but that doesn’t include doing things you really hate, in my book. There are MILLIONS of decent guys out there who would never dream of forcing a woman to engage in sexual activities she doesn’t like. Seriously. Most guys I’ve had sex with wanted to please me more than anything.
It would make me feel really happy if a man would stop using pornography for me. I feel traumatized by it. I can’t do it, I’ve tried to force myself to watch it before at very low periods in my life, and it just makes me wish I was dead. I don’t think men understand how forbidden a woman is from admitting that she hates pornography nowadays, but I hate it, and it is not the same for women as for men. Most men in porn or hideous and what’s eroticized for women is being weak and passive and fucked and pathetic–for men, it’s being hard and strong and tough. I don’t think men would love it the way they do if they had to see themselves that way, having dick shoved in their mouth by strangers and their face all twisted out of shape. You don’t see men made to look weak and pathetic. I hate the woman’s role in it. I feel like I’m so different from other women, if there are really men who want to please me during sex, why do men treat me like I’m some horrible monster for just asking him to stop using porn? It would feel like the greatest gift in the world to me, I can’t even explain what it would mean for me. I’m a survivor of sex abuse that involved porn and I just can’t handle it, and I don’t know why men get so angry at that, that I have a special need. I don’t need a guy to be rich or perfect or any of that–just please, don’t use pornography, I hate it, it makes me feel terrible about being female. Why is that such a terrible thing to want, for a man to stop using porn? I don’t want to learn to like it rough–ever. I hate sucking dick, I hate anal sex, and I DO want sex to be about my pleasure. I’m tired of serving men. Pornography just makes me feel hopeless inside, and I feel like it makes men more disconnected than they ever were, you don’t know what it’s like for young women. None of these men on here care. And for every study they cite that porn reduces sexual assault (not for the women in it it doesn’t, that’s for sure!) I could site studies that say the exact opposite. After Deep Throat, instances of throat rape increased dramatically. I just can’t deal with all this anymore, it’s a waste of time. These men don’t care and sometimes I feel like no men care, and it just makes me feel too hopeless for words.
” you don’t know what it’s like for young women. ”
Some women also like porn. I think some people see what they want to see. For some porn is hopelesly antiwoman and yet there women who watch also porn. So IMO its a emotive problem, not rational.
“None of these men on here care.”
Not true, lots of guys here care and the majority if not all guys, want to make the woman happy. Just because we dont agree, doesent mean we dont care.
Who says we don’t care? We just don’t agree with your view of what porn is. I’m sorry you went through something so traumatic but do you really expect us to give it up because sometimes bad shit happens? If someone was abused during a movie at the cinema, would you expect movies to be banned?
You don’t have to date a person who looks at porn, but don’t expect everyone else to follow your worldview because of your past and what you see as a medium that is only ever bad. There is good in that medium…
Really, you’ve always had the power to say no? Not every woman is as lucky as you.
Unless you are in an abusive relationship where your life is in danger, you always have the power to say no. And even if your life is in danger, there are resources to help. But, I assume we are not talking about those kind of extreme circumstances. You seem to be referring to ordinary male-female power dynamics where you feel women are being pressured into sexual activities they don’t like because of the influence of porn. I believe most women have the power to say “no” to relationships, and to say “no” within relationships. Maybe in some cases a woman feels her options aren’t good (being alone, losing a man’s financial support, or whatever) but they are still options. I consider myself a feminist but I do not believe women should be viewed as helpless victims.
“What if my problem with your sexual use of women via porn stems not from the fact that I assume it makes you hate all women, but from the fundamental dynamic of men being able to buy sexual access to women in the first place, and from the fact that many, many (I would even say the majority of) women in the sex industry are there because they were victims of child sex abuse, they were taken advantage of by pornographers when they were young and naive and thought being in porn would be totally different, they get addicted to drugs, etc. ”
I hear the victims of sexual abuse line a lot but quite frankly it sounds like you don’t afford these women their own agency? Does CSA make it impossible for women to make informed decisions for themselves? Yes it’s evil for anyone to take advantage of people but do you think that happens always? Or do these women actively choose this career for whatever reason? Maybe I am naive but I trust the women to make their own choices.
When I buy porn I don’t buy “sexual access” to them. I buy their pictures. Which are infinitely inferior to access to a real woman who’s that enthusiastic about sex.
Nevertheless, I suppose I buy those pictures because a picture better than nothing and is sometimes preferable to a woman who’s not willing and enthusiastic about sex. I think the gripe has something to do with men being able to sidestep women’s ability to dictate men’s access to sex–even if that access is just a marginally better masturbation experience.
If women want men to lay off the porn, be better in bed. More willing, more enthusiastic, more fun.
Archy, I think sometimes abuse survivors choose situations that replicate the abuse. Even if a pattern is devastating to you and you’d like something better, if it’s all you really know, sometimes you keep on reproducing it–and that’s particularly true for women, most of whom are literally obsessed with trying not to displease men. One of my first responses to abuse was to go through a 2 year period of severe anorexia. I definitely chose to starve myself–my food intake was something I had control over, and in a sick way, that made me feel powerful. But I’m glad people who cared about me decided to deny me my agency and get me out of that pattern, even though, again, it was something I’d actively chosen. I think many men are naive about what brings women in pornography in front of the camera, and what happens to them afterwards. I remember an interview with a john I read once, where he was asked about the women he used, “Do you ever think about that fact that she’s a real human being?” to which he responded, “Yeah, but you have to push that thought out of your mind, otherwise, you can’t do it.” Porn is nothing but prostitution on film, and honestly, I’d rather a guy I was with cheat on me with a real woman than use it–at least in that case he’d have to interact with her as a real human being in order to get sex from her or to get to see sex done to her. Pornography doesn’t set up a fair balance between women and men, and in order to justify using it, men will resort to all sorts of sexist arguments about how women are really running the show, should have been better in bed, deserved to have their partner use porn because they weren’t pleasing enough in some way…it’s just misogyny, all that, and I think it proves that porn use does impact men’s view of women and men’s behavior (we accept that commercials influence people’s choices and desires for god’s sake! How could pornography not do the same?). Okay, now I’m really done.
Do you ever watch porn? I watch pretty much only amateur content by couples who make their own porn, the pleasure is usually equally distributed, they have oral with each other and have sex, or just oral together, etc. I also watch solo “webcam” live shows by women who do it as a source of income. I’ve also mutually masturbated with a friend on our webcams. Do you expect me to believe the majority of those people were abused and are acting it out?
I can understand your concern for pro porn, I share the same concerns over the working conditions, but do you include amateur porn in it?
Stephanie and Erin, I respect your opinions but that’s all they are. They are no more valid than those who totally disagree with you. And, your arguments are unlikely to change many minds on this subject and convince men to stop viewing porn anymore than it will stop women from using phallic sex toys.
I don’t think anything I have to say will stop men from looking at porn Eric. Porn is here to stay. Men win, don’t worry. But I am not going to pretend I think it’s great and positive for men or women and our relationships.
The fact is porn doesn’t treat men like it treats women. So I think it’s easier for men to accept because it centers around male fantasy first.
And what are us women suppose to do? We are suppose to accept that men want all these other visuals of other women but we are suppose to also be totally confident and vulnerable with our men even in the face of him routinally seeking out material that is all about enjoying the sexuality of other women on a regular basis. We are suppose to remain unaffected by his porn use even as he is affected by it.
I am not suppose to question what this means and what this says or not feel confused about what that means for my place in his life. I’m not suppose to question what he is thinking. I guess I am suppose to just think that he is wonderful no matter what and just accept that 18 year olds in porn with implants are always going to beat me out on some level. Oh but that’s right..i must remain confident and be willing to be vulnerable with him even as he strikes right at the heart of things that are very vulnerable for a lot of women.
Porn doesn’t give men an unfair advantage with regard to sex. It helps level the playing field, evening out the effect of testosterone, or whatever other biological factors give (most) men a relatively higher sex drive than their partners.
But, go on rambling about sex needing to be more egalitarian and less capitalistic. In most relationships, the man is paid in scrip and their partner runs the company store.
Women are suppose to be understanding and all smiles that men just seem to need porn no matter what the porn is doing to depict female bodies or sexuality.
If you think that is what Archy and I are trying to say then yes, you are not listening to us.
It’s apparently women’s fault that big penises exist in porn, although previously Danny admit that porn is mainly made for men, it’s women’s fault that they are debased in porn and apparently it’s women’s fault that men are lonely. What’s a poor man to do I guess right?
Funny. After saying that porn is made mainly for men when it came to “fault” I think I said, “I didn’t say it was there fault but if you want to talk about what has influence then yes I would say that women are adding to that influence.” And I don’t recall ever saying that women were at fault for men being lonely. I have said that that loneliness is probably a source of why men embrace unhealthy sexual ideas about women. But I don’t think I said it was women’s fault.
Actually I would like for those “poor men” to have options but I don’t want it to come at the cost of the idea that women should be obligated to have sex with said lonely guys in order to keep them from embracing dangerous ideas about sex and women.
You say that we think you aren’t listening to us and then you say stuff like this.
I can’t speak for Archy but I wouldn’t blame him for seeing your words as portrayal of you not listening.
I agree 100%. Words are being twisted or misunderstood. I’ve never said all porn was good for instance, or that all porn was egalitarian, I dunno where she came up with that?
No one NEEDS porn but it can be very beneficial to a person, it can also be very negative to another. No one needs games or other forms of entertainment, nor art, nor english, nor science, nor a car, etc. They are desires. The only thing we need is intimacy, sex, love, in order to have happiness and the lack of those can be quite detrimental to one’s mental health. I know full well as I spent the majority of a decade alone 95% of the time, barely saw friends let alone had lovers, it’s soul crushing that loneliness and porn helped ease it.
I think part of what Erin is getting at is that men get REALLY defensive about their porn. Say, a wife knows her husband has been watching porn that day featuring ‘teens.’ She naturally feels inadequate and sad. This doesn’t make her a man-hating feme-nazi or someone trying to control your every move. She just doesn’t feel good enough. Is that so wrong? Later that night, he wants to have sex. The sex is unenjoyable because the whole time she’s wondering if he’s thinking of his teens. Why isn’t she good enough? Why isn’t there a pill to make her stay 22 forever? Maybe she’s been busy with work and kids and can’t always be at his beck and call for sex, wearing full makeup, spending the rest of the time at the gym, and knowing and being comfortable with every position and sex act. And then, you hear the same guys who watch porn disrespecting women who do it. They’d never want THEIR partner to be in porn. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. Sometimes, if a woman dares to say these things, she’s pounced upon like she’s some crazy, controlling prude. Women aren’t made of steel. I know, suck it up. But is it that terrible to have some empathy? Archy and Danny–this is not directed towards you, as you both do have empathy and explain yourselves really well. Archy, I’m really glad that porn is there to have helped you through your loneliness. I can completely understand how that helps elevate your mood.
That sums it up Aya. It seems that when it comes to porn, women are expected to be made of steel. I like that explanation. We aren’t suppose to have any feelings toward it. We aren’t suppose to be bothered by reenforced messages about our beauty or youth or lack of. We aren’t suppose to be bothered by the idea that men find us and our sexuality less exciting as we get older. We are suppose to be these uber confident super human beings that don’t let anything affect us. Yet we need to be REALLY sensitive and understanding about why he needs porn and why he needs porn of 18 year olds or all kinds of women. When you talk to him about the topic, men are always saying, “be sensitive and gentle”. Yet when women get talked to about this subject it’s more like “suck it up, men like porn, it’s natural, men like 22 year olds and if you aren’t 22 year old anymore that’s your problem.” There is such a lack of really relating to one another here.
“We aren’t suppose to be bothered by the idea that men find us and our sexuality less exciting as we get older. ”
Depends on the man though, I see quite a lot of comments about men enjoying sex with 30+ year old women who’s are reaching their sexual peak. I’ve had friends around 25 who told me they were with 35+ year old women, the women to them weren’t as attractive physically as younger women but they were cougars in bed and their sexuality was very attractive.
I think life itself with many people getting bogged down by kids, housework, etc that get in the way of romance is having an effect of keeping a stereotype of older peoples sexuality being less thrilling as younger, this could be an issue for couples to look into.
“Yet we need to be REALLY sensitive and understanding about why he needs porn and why he needs porn of 18 year olds or all kinds of women. When you talk to him about the topic, men are always saying, “be sensitive and gentle”. Yet when women get talked to about this subject it’s more like “suck it up, men like porn, it’s natural, men like 22 year olds and if you aren’t 22 year old anymore that’s your problem.” There is such a lack of really relating to one another here.”
What I see are men saying they all like different things, not to sweep them up into a generalization and demonize them, which is what many of the men taking issue with your comments are trying to say. When we men open up we cop quite a bit of hate at times, it’s not easy to speak about hence why we want sensitivity. Just the fact I look at porn makes some women assume that because the majority of porn THEY see is degrading, it means that I am jerking off to women being slapped around, talked down to, etc. Then we get told what we are actually thinking, literally women including yourself have told us we must be thinking this, like this in a woman, etc when we say otherwise yet we are being ignored.
I’m sure some men will tell you to suck it up, but I’m not telling you to do that. It’s up to you and your partner to work out what is acceptable for your relationship. I am trying to suggest that for some men, such as men like me, what we look at and what we want aren’t the same and comparing yourself to the porn I look at is a bad idea. Is it natural to like porn? Probably, seems a hell of a lot of men n women like it, doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for every relationship though. You bring up good points about the degrading aspects of the pro industry, or usage in relationships where one objects to it. I want you to keep speaking up about it, but I also want you to listen as I am listening to you, I’ll try my best to hear you out and hopefully you do the same.
What’s making us defensive I think is there seems to be this hyperfocus on how bad porn can be, but not much focus on how it can be good. We see the good side, I’m not sure you can see the good side, I feel you see it as something that has too much bad stuff and not worth saving. When men are saying they are feeling demonized by someones comment, they need to understand why that might be. Just as we men need to understand why you feel demonized as a prude, which I’m guessing is what you feel at the moment, feeling like people are telling you to shutup about your feelings? What I feel like is many women ask us about porn, ignore the good parts, focus on the bad or conflate all of us as supporting this terrible industry that does horrible shit to women and making us out to be demons even if they don’t realize.
“Depends on the man though, I see quite a lot of comments about men enjoying sex with 30+ year old women who’s are reaching their sexual peak. I’ve had friends around 25 who told me they were with 35+ year old women, the women to them weren’t as attractive physically as younger women but they were cougars in bed and their sexuality was very attractive.”
Do you and other men consider 30 old Archy? To the point that it’s suppose to be a compliment that men can even or “still” enjoy sex with 30+ year old women? I guess I don’t see how your comments are all that positive to women.
I also think talking about 25 year old guys having sex with older women isn’t so much a testament to older women’s attractiveness as it is these guys just wanting to have sex and new experience with anyone. I doubt these younger guys would seriously consider having relationships with these older women. I also dislike cataloging women and calling them “cougars”. I don’t think this is a very sex positive term to be honest. Why does every woman that sleeps with an older guy have to be a cougar?
“What I see are men saying they all like different things, not to sweep them up into a generalization and demonize them, which is what many of the men taking issue with your comments are trying to say. “
Men like different things on a much smaller scale compared to what is vastly popular. I think you are demonizing women and the issues they can struggle with that are real realities for them on back of accusing them of being demonizing toward men. The reality is that here are A LOT of men out there that are looking at mainly young women in porn. That is the biggest chunk of women out there. But I guess because a small segment of “older woman porn” exists , which is actually sometimes simply 25 year olds that are given MILF status because of their advanced years in the porn business, is suppose to make women feel what…good? Like men really do like us ?
“When we men open up we cop quite a bit of hate at times, it’s not easy to speak about hence why we want sensitivity.”
I get that. I don’t want to deny men sensitivity. I would just like to see men offer some sensitivity in return. Rarely are men given the advice to be sensitive to women about these things. It’s always about women having to learn to understand how much her man needs to see so much variety in other women and sometimes needs to see younger women with perfect bodies. It’s about women having to be sensitive to him and understanding him and I simply don’t see most men trying to understand or be sensitive in return. It usually comes down to how men simply need porn and women need to understand that.
I have read forums where guys that heavily used porn talk about their experiences of not looking at porn anymore. They talked about how normal women started to excited them again. And not just really “hot” girls on the street. How they could be turned on by a hard nipple poking through a shirt or something very simple. They talked about how it was like when they were young teenagers again because they were excited by simple unrestricted things. Yet when they used porn, they were much more critical of women and found less women attractive. Heck, they could see a woman in public and remain completely unaffected even if she was attractive. I wonder how many men are walking around in that kind of state. Numb to real women because they have a lot of time and access to material that caters to their fancies. I suspect it’s more men then not. I suspect it’s more men then men would ever want to admit. I bet if all the guys here stopped looking at porn for a couple weeks, they would see their sexuality change. They would respond to things different and discover their sexuality even more so then repeat porn use. Are any men up to that challenge? Going without porn for several weeks and seeking how it affects them? Is it even possible anymore for men to go without porn?
“Just the fact I look at porn makes some women assume that because the majority of porn THEY see is degrading, it means that I am jerking off to women being slapped around, talked down to, etc. “
I don’t think demeaning porn is just about women being slapped around and talked down to. The way women are stereotypes and catagorized is pretty demeaning to me as well.
I hope you aren’t referring to me though. I don’t really care what you specifically look at. I talk about this topic in general terms because I see general themes in men’s behaviors and attitudes toward women and toward porn. I also suspect we have a different idea about what is degrading and what is truly egalitarian. You use amateur porn a lot as a way to say that it’s a segment of the industry that is really positive and wonderful. I don’t think something being amateur porn means it’s necessarily positive, healthy or egalitarian. Heck, you don’t even know if both parties KNOW that that video is even being posted. We don’t know if this couple decided to make a video for themselves then one or the other posted it. I bet there are TONS of videos posted that appear amateur that a man took and posted without his partners consent. This doesn’t even touch on the fact that it being amateur doesn’t mean the content is completely fair and wonderful and positive.
“Then we get told what we are actually thinking, literally women including yourself have told us we must be thinking this, like this in a woman, etc when we say otherwise yet we are being ignored.”
It’s not about telling you what you are thinking. It’s about women also having valid opinions and voices and having had valid experiences with men that represent their views.
“I’m sure some men will tell you to suck it up, but I’m not telling you to do that. It’s up to you and your partner to work out what is acceptable for your relationship.”
You seem to want me to think porn is wonderful because *you* think amateur porn is.
“I am trying to suggest that for some men, such as men like me, what we look at and what we want aren’t the same and comparing yourself to the porn I look at is a bad idea. Is it natural to like porn? Probably, seems a hell of a lot of men n women like it, doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for every relationship though.”
And isn’t it natural to look at what a medium specifically designed for male fantasy and not gather information about what men like and who men want women to be? Is it natural for some women to say “gee, I don’t know if I like this” ? Or How do I fit into this? Or, “well gosh, I’m not 22 anymore but he sure does like 22 year olds I’m not even sure if I want him to see my body.” Isn’t it natural to compare? YES YES YES. Lots of things are “natural”.
Stop expecting women to be super human beings that don’t take information away from what men show they like. Stop demanding women be above such things while men enjoy them.
“You bring up good points about the degrading aspects of the pro industry, or usage in relationships where one objects to it. I want you to keep speaking up about it, but I also want you to listen as I am listening to you, I’ll try my best to hear you out and hopefully you do the same.”
Will that be before or after you tell me how much I hate men.
“What’s making us defensive I think is there seems to be this hyperfocus on how bad porn can be, but not much focus on how it can be good. “
It’s not a hyperfocus for me about how awful porn is toward women. Fine. It’s a hyperfocus for you. That doesn’t mean that’s true for me. And you are not the only one that feels defensive. Especially when I try to be very honest about my own take here and I get labeled six ways till Sunday for it and told that my thoughts and who I am is hateful….or “boarderline” hateful to get around actually calling me hateful.
“We see the good side, I’m not sure you can see the good side, I feel you see it as something that has too much bad stuff and not worth saving. “
I see a world where porn has become way too important in men’s lives. I see a world where it’s becoming increasingly important to women too. I see the way sexuality has changed for that. I don’t think any of this is good.
People seem to want the answer to be, “more porn”. I think that’s the last thing we need. Is porn making people happier? Maybe for a few short moments but in the grand scheme of things, I think it just messes with human pysche.
No one wants to be honest about how much porn has become a regular part of life and some people seem to be advocating for even more porn. It’s surreal. Do we need more porn? Are men so bored with real women that sometimes they need to escape toward fantasy women? Is a man’s peeking at some off beat porn really suppose to make women feel empowered?
Porn use to be this once-in-awhile thing where you had to actually leave your home to get it. That’s not the way people are interacting with porn anymore and if you don’t think that’s affecting human sexuality then I don’t think you are being realistic.
“When men are saying they are feeling demonized by someones comment, they need to understand why that might be. Just as we men need to understand why you feel demonized as a prude, which I’m guessing is what you feel at the moment, feeling like people are telling you to shutup about your feelings?”
I don’t feel demonized as a prude. I have said nothing about my personal sexuality here. I am a very sexual person but I don’t feel the need to advertise that. I do feel demonized as some kind of man hater especially by you.
“What I feel like is many women ask us about porn, ignore the good parts, focus on the bad or conflate all of us as supporting this terrible industry that does horrible shit to women and making us out to be demons even if they don’t realize.”
We don’t see the “good parts” the same way.
“Do you and other men consider 30 old Archy? To the point that it’s suppose to be a compliment that men can even or “still” enjoy sex with 30+ year old women? I guess I don’t see how your comments are all that positive to women.”
No, a different age bracket, I go by decades usually. 20′s, 30′s, 40′s, women in 30′s are often married with kids or have at least had 5+ more years of life experience than a 25 year old. What I consider “old” is 50+ which is the age my attraction drops off currently. The reason I said it is because I’m trying to say some men do find older women attractive, even when younger. Not every male is the same, I’m pretty sure I had friends who were around 22 and were sleeping with 35+ year old women, might have been 40+ but I can’t quite remember, I know it was at least a decade or more.
“Why does every woman that sleeps with an older guy have to be a cougar?”
You mean man that sleeps with older woman? I dunno why they call them cougars, I think it’s mainly for women old enough to be their mother though and the young guys are called toy boys. I think most people prefer to date their own age, some men also date younger, and some women date older men too.
“Men like different things on a much smaller scale compared to what is vastly popular. I think you are demonizing women and the issues they can struggle with that are real realities for them on back of accusing them of being demonizing toward men”
I’m not saying you’re demonizing men about the legitimate issues, it’s specifically about broad sweeping generalizations you make whislt simultaneously not listening to not just me, but Danny, Nick, and a few others, and then also womansplaining us. Other women have brought up issues and guess what, I haven’t said they were demonizing, why do you think that is? Because they didn’t do what you have been doing.
“I get that. I don’t want to deny men sensitivity. I would just like to see men offer some sensitivity in return. Rarely are men given the advice to be sensitive to women about these things. It’s always about women having to learn to understand how much her man needs to see so much variety in other women and sometimes needs to see younger women with perfect bodies. It’s about women having to be sensitive to him and understanding him and I simply don’t see most men trying to understand or be sensitive in return. It usually comes down to how men simply need porn and women need to understand that. ”
Well I hope you realize I am trying to be as sensitive as possible, quite a few others seem to be as well though I see one or two that are saying “woman up” basically which I don’t agree with.
“I wonder how many men are walking around in that kind of state. Numb to real women because they have a lot of time and access to material that caters to their fancies. I suspect it’s more men then not.”
Are these guys masturbating still without porn? I look at porn heavily and still get heavily turned on by nipples poking through shirts, hell someone I like a lot recently wore a skirt and it was extremely distracting. Stopping masturbation for a few days can make me get an initial hornyness increase, and the first orgasm after a few days feels better but it’s unrelated to porn usage for me.
I’ve been without porn for a few weeks, I noticed no real difference. Some men will be like me and not have much difference, others will have a big difference, some men are addicted, others are not. I haven’t really looked at porn in a week or 2, although I have been doing cam2cam with someone if that counts. Before that I was lookign at porn once a day, but that cam2cam friend was still extremely attractive to me, just as many women offline are. I can go without porn, it’s just boring without it when I am single. I still masturbate without porn too at times, and it’s alright, just not really as thrilling. I find women to be beautiful and sexy, I find watching sex to be sexy, it’s just additional visual stimulation to me, although the cam2cam stuff is a whole different story, it’s a mutual thing, fun, and easily beats porn. It’s currently the closest I get to typical intimacy with another person.
“Is it even possible anymore for men to go without porn?”
Sure, but unless they have a partner it gets a bit boring. Go without tv, or books, or whatever entertains you for a week, it’s a bit like that. I often go a few days without porn though, depends how horny I am and my desire to destress (I use orgasms to help lower my anxiety from my anxiety disorder down as they are very effective).
“I hope you aren’t referring to me though. I don’t really care what you specifically look at.”
No, this one is for the extreme anti-porn crusaders.
“I don’t think something being amateur porn means it’s necessarily positive, healthy or egalitarian. Heck, you don’t even know if both parties KNOW that that video is even being posted. We don’t know if this couple decided to make a video for themselves then one or the other posted it. I bet there are TONS of videos posted that appear amateur that a man took and posted without his partners consent.”
That is one fear I have of the content but I try to ensure it is just the typical voyeuristic couple? There are online cam sites where couples have sex with people watching where that seems to be fully consenting. There are sites where the couple can also upload their content to. It’s not neccessarily positive, but it’s the best chance and it’s where I see the majority of egalitarian content. I don’t mean to imply ALL amateur stuff is egalitarian, but I do believe a large portion originates that way. Even videos that are stolen, the original video itself for the couple can be egalitarian but then it changes to degrading them both by being posted. If I send my partner a pic of my dick, it’s porn, if we both fuck on our camera, it can be egalitarian, ethical, etc. I think the majority of porn being produced right now though is probably sexting, stuff that isn’t meant for public consumption, I think most of that is egalitarian too so porn itself isn’t neccessarily bad, porn can have a lot of good but it depends on what is done with it and how it is produced.
“You seem to want me to think porn is wonderful because *you* think amateur porn is. ”
I don’t want you to think porn is wonderful, I want you to see that SOME porn can be wonderful, but it also depends on who you are. If you don’t like porn then you probably won’t see it as wonderful, I just hope you can at least see that SOME porn IS good to some people. That’s all I’ve ever wanted to hear, to see good porn acknowledged and not thrown out with the bathwater.
“And isn’t it natural to look at what a medium specifically designed for male fantasy and not gather information about what men like and who men want women to be?”
To a certain extent, fantasy isn’t a 100% complete picture on reality. You’re better off looking at data from online dating, or seeing who men approach, have crushes on, date, marry etc and comparing to that. What do you do if your man likes looking at gay porn but isn’t actually gay? Do women who like rape fantasies want to date rapists? See how fantasy isn’t 100% perfect to compare to?
“Will that be before or after you tell me how much I hate men.”
When did I say you hate men?
“It’s not a hyperfocus for me about how awful porn is toward women. Fine. It’s a hyperfocus for you. That doesn’t mean that’s true for me. And you are not the only one that feels defensive. Especially when I try to be very honest about my own take here and I get labeled six ways till Sunday for it and told that my thoughts and who I am is hateful….or “boarderline” hateful to get around actually calling me hateful. ”
You’re not the only one I am talking about, you’re not the center of my universe on the GMP. I’ve told you time n time again why you’re getting labelled badly and it’s got nothing to do with you trying to give your honest feelings, it’s the womansplaining, asking us what we like, then ignoring what we say that is ruffling the feathers. It’s the generalizations that aren’t just you stating opinion, but you appear to be stating them as fact. Your communication style is stirring up the men, ask yourself why.
“I see a world where porn has become way too important in men’s lives. I see a world where it’s becoming increasingly important to women too. I see the way sexuality has changed for that. I don’t think any of this is good. ”
Nothing in porn is good? Not a single thing? Or do you simply mean just the over-reliance on porn?
“No one wants to be honest about how much porn has become a regular part of life and some people seem to be advocating for even more porn. It’s surreal. Do we need more porn? Are men so bored with real women that sometimes they need to escape toward fantasy women? Is a man’s peeking at some off beat porn really suppose to make women feel empowered? ”
A lot of guys here are being honest about it, I’m being honest about it. There you go again generalizing and ignoring us, and you wonder why we get annoyed. I advocate for more GOOD porn, less bad porn. Are men bored with real women? Some maybe, some aren’t. Do you not grasp that a lot of men find it difficult to find a partner and thus use porn as a way to fill in the lonliness? Some men use it for this reason, some men use it in relationships as additional stimulus like a vibrator, some use it because they’re in sexless relationships, some use it because they’re addicted, some use it instead of their partners cuz they’re assholes. And no women aren’t meant to feel empowered by men looking at bad porn (if that is what you meant?).
“We don’t see the “good parts” the same way.”
Do you see ANY good parts? even a single thing?
“I do feel demonized as some kind of man hater especially by you. ”
I don’t think you’re a man-hater. Your generalizations and womansplaining are annoying as hell, but it’s probably your communication style, I’m not quite sure exactly what you believe anymore but I don’t think you are someone that hates men. You’ve had multiple people tell you that your comments come across as dismissing us, demonizing us, telling us what we think, I’ve pointed this out numerous times yet you still haven’t acknowledged it. I don’t think you’re debating in good faith, and it sounds like you’re either misunderstanding me, or playing foul thinking I am trying to demonize you as a man hater when all I have been trying to do is point out how you’re coming across badly. Believe it or not I think you have some good stuff to say but not one but 3-5 guys seem to have issue with what you’re saying, it’s time to open your eyes Erin and figure out why you are sounding that way. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person, or a man hater, it just means you need to pay more attention to what these guys and I are saying when we talk to you and try figure out how to say your opinion without sounding like you’re telling us what men think. Currently it’s patronizing, and I find it sad because it’s making it difficult to have a decent conversation. There is a reason Danny said this:
“Archy and Danny–this is not directed towards you, as you both do have empathy and explain yourselves really well. Archy, I’m really glad that porn is there to have helped you through your loneliness. I can completely understand how that helps elevate your mood.
Try telling that to Erin.”
Archy and Danny–this is not directed towards you, as you both do have empathy and explain yourselves really well. Archy, I’m really glad that porn is there to have helped you through your loneliness. I can completely understand how that helps elevate your mood.
Try telling that to Erin.
One thing I could say, I dunno how this will be taken, but for purely visual alone stimulation, often it takes a far more beautiful woman to turn me on, then it does face to face. Porn does have that disconnected feeling and so I am relying pretty much on physical looks alone whereas offline there are other things going on, even just the fact that it’s reality, the bonding chemicals etc that actually make women more attractive. Trying to get a clue of what I like from porn isn’t going to work much, at best you may see what one of my attraction mechanisms likes but what about the rest? It’s fantasy, and in fantasy why not look at the best of the best, it doesn’t compare to having a real life woman next to you.
I am exaggerating a bit here as the porn stars I look at aren’t actually 10′s, I dunno how you’d number them but they range from attractive to supermodel, but what I’m trying to say is there are other things at play offline that you don’t get in porn. You will not be the most physically attractive person ever to exist, your body will change, that’s life and most men know this. Thing is the only attractive thing going for the porn stars to the individual guy is mainly their looks, it’s all the guy can really get from a video, maybe a bit of attraction to voice or mannerisms, bit of personality but absolutely nothing compared to a person next to you.
We aren’t all supermodels, you will not be a supermodel most likely, guys might like looking at supermodels in porn but seriously? Do you think most of us are really that shallow to think you aren’t beautiful if we’re dating you? The woman I loved was fairly decent in looks but when I fell in love with her, EVERYONE else became uglier, she was my 10, my supermodel, because not all of a man’s attraction is based off his visual stimulation system. I would choose her every time to Heidi Klum, how do you quantify that feeling I get when I thought of her? What I fantasize and what I really want are 2 different things at times, I like to fantasize sometimes about being James Bond, a super hero, or some form of hero and having one or more in bed with me but I also fantasize about being in a relationship with a gf I love. Only one of those I actually want, the relationship, although superhero might be ok except my love would always be at risk from my enemies of course which would fucking suck.
The guys looking at teens or early 20′s? I dunno how to explain it, they’re often the most beautiful women I see (there are older women I do find beautiful), in porn I am more attracted to my age and + or – a decade or so, similar to real life. I find the women around the 20 – 25 to probably be the most attractive physically, but personality wise I prefer 25+. Porn is pretty much solely physical attraction, so ladies you may be comparing yourself to people who can never compete with you. How many attractions are there? There is physical, personality, that undefinable one that causes butterflies, thinking of them all day, the spark, women in porn can be one of those attractions but even then it still can’t compare to reality. I can see how it makes women question their own beauty especially as they get older, but I don’t think it means older women aren’t beautiful, just that younger women are probably more physically attractive. I have no idea if that is mostly because of society and expectations, or biology, or a mix of both, so I can’t really give a clue why, all I know is for me personally the 20′s seem the most attractive but I’m also in my 20′s. It may change in the next decade or when I get old enough to be their father, who knows. Either way I am still attracted to women my age and older even quite a lot, just that women around my age or younger are a bit more PHYSICALLY attractive to me, whereas women my age or older are more attractive to me in personality and life.
Now some people use vibrators, should a man thing that his penis is not enough or is it simply extra stimulation? That’s the question here, yes porn has another woman but he’s not going to have any of the attachment he feels for you to her, it’s someone who simply triggers that visual stimulation, a beautiful body, or just the act of sex itself. It’s hard to get much more from porn than that I guess. Hell just seeing the vulva puts me into overdrive… A vibrator will trigger pleasure from your nerves, porn can trigger pleasure from that visual system. I haven’t watched porn whilst being with another women, I have seen porn at a different time and I didn’t think of that during sex with her. Porn earlier on in the night can get him arroused, get him off and he goes about his business. A romance novel, or porn, or 50 shades of grey, or a vibrator can do the same for a woman.
Is it a fact of the guy/girl not being enough? I have no idea how to answer that, I think it comes down to the couple. For me personally I don’t particularly care if she looks at porn, long as she brings me some good sex after and not forgo sex with me to look at porn. If I’m away in town, or sick, or something, if I can’t please her then she can look at it if she wants. Would I care if she looked at it during sex? Dunno, depends if she focuses on the porn more than me. Would I feel like I am inadequate if she got out a vibrator? No, I view it as adding more pleasure. If she could only orgasm with porn or a vibrator, I would be worried then but I realize sexual dysfunction can make it hard to deal with. My experience of sex I had sexual dysfunction due to pills, i had to masturbate at the end to orgasm, it was frustrating and annoying as hell but I can understand that sometimes our bodies don’t obey like we want then too. I told her over n over that the pills did it, I didn’t want her feeling like she failed.
I think it’s up to the individual couple to find their barriers, desires, likes, etc. If my partner didn’t want me looking at porn I probably wouldn’t, I can’t see myself looking at it unless we are in a sexless part of the relationship, but I’d be trying to fix that first.
“Archy and Danny–this is not directed towards you, as you both do have empathy and explain yourselves really well.”
I find it hard to open up about it, sometimes I feel like some shallow monster when I talk about porn as it’s mostly a physical thing. It’s hard to explain being only turned on physically, or the attraction of porn when many women don’t seem to get a similar feeling to the men. The women who do look at porn seem to fully understand it though and I think they realize it’s not as bad as other women see it, they don’t seem to think of it as cheating for instance or try to compare themselves to women in porn. It’s also hard to explain the desire to look at porn n masturbate, but as I am not in a relationship pretty much all of my knowledge comes from being single n lonely so I can only guess as to why married men for instance look at porn.
“Archy, I’m really glad that porn is there to have helped you through your loneliness. I can completely understand how that helps elevate your mood.”
Thank-you, I do like romance movies too as they trigger that happy lovey dovey feeling but that feeling usually leaves me feeling very vulnerable and lonely, more so than the porn, hence why I tend to avoid it. I LOVE being in the lovey dovey feeling, more so than the horny feeling, I get a bounce in my step and feel great. Combine the 2 and it’s extacy….
I think porn does cause a lot of insecurity forbecause because we have been taught since childhood that our looks are everything. If you grow up as an average or less attractive woman (as I did) or as you get older and realize you are no longer in that most desirable age bracket, it can be really hard on the self esteem. Also, being desired is a big turn on for me, so if I suspect that a man is not really attracted to my imperfect body or if he is thinking about younger, more attractive bodies while he’s with me, it’s going to kill my desire for sex with him. Maybe it’s irrational but sexuality is not rational. That’s why I can’t watch porn while haing sex, it is actually a major turn OFF for me. At the same time I recognize that men like porn and like looking at attractive women so I can’t stop them, I just don’t want to be reminded of it all the time.
I guess one way to explain it would be what if you knew your girlfriend really liked guys with big penises and you are below average. She is quite open about her love of big penises and likes looking at pictures of big penises. But when you tell her feel insecure about it, she tells you “don’t worry, it’s just a fantasy, I lIke you for other reasons. I know you have a small pensis but I like you for your personality!”. That would probably be upsetting, wouldn’t it?
This is where, as I think I said in an earlier comment, I think it is important sometimes not to be too open about one’s fantasies, simply out of consideration for the other person’s feelings. Porn is so prevalent now and so “out there,” it can feel like a constant blow to one’s self worth and value as a woman. Women know we are imperfect physically, especially if we aren’t 10′s or aren’t in the 20-25 age bracket, yet we are still sexual beings who want to be loved and desired.
I think much of the appeal of “50 Shades of Grey” is not the kinky sex but simply that Christian is so incredibly smitten with the main character. There is an amusing review in a recent issue of the New Yorker which talks about 50 Shades in the context of Naomi Wolf’s new book about the vagina (which honestly sounds like quite a silly read). Naomi Wolf apparently describes how women (allegedly) need our men to worship the divine energy of our vaginas and the reviewer points out that’s essentially what Christian does in 50 Shades, interspersed with a little spanking and bondage. I read 50 Shades (it’s awful, BTW) and I think the reviewer is definitely onto something there.
I won’t go so far as Naomi Wolf with regard to the Goddess in my pussy
but I think being the object of desire is important to many women’s sexual feelings, and porn undermines this which is why it feels upsetting to many (not all) women. I’m not being judgmental about men who like porn but just trying to explain the female reaction.
I think all you say is true. I’ve often wondered how close I am to the “typical porn viewer.” I don’t watch it that often (once or twice a month), never while having sex, and the participants aren’t “models” in that they have average bodies where boobs don’t defy gravity and penises aren’t longer than my forearm.
But I understand this link between desire and feeling sexually expressive, and I think many men want the same thing. When a sexual partner doesn’t express desire for you, it feels very much like they’re doing you a solid. “Thanks for fixing the dishwasher. Here, have some pussy; just let me know when you’re finished with it.” Sometimes perfunctory sex can relieve stress and tension, but most of the time it just leaves you a little dead inside.
“Also, being desired is a big turn on for me, so if I suspect that a man is not really attracted to my imperfect body or if he is thinking about younger, more attractive bodies while he’s with me, it’s going to kill my desire for sex with him.”
I think something to realize is that the attraction he feels to younger women may only be a bit higher than that to older women, but it depends on the man. You can feel attraction level 1000 for your partner, level 200 for a young woman in porn, level 170 for an older woman. It’s hard to quantify though the attraction, especially for video or imagery alone which only relies on visual attraction mainly. The feelings of love, bonding etc can make an average girl much more beautiful to a man, or woman. A random person with a similar body to me for example might not be very attractive to my partner, but the bonding, love, etc can make me far more attractive and even more attractive than those with better physical looks. It’s like when I was in love, I watched the Miss Universe and thought my love was hotter, actually more physically beatiful especially as soon as I saw her face it brings this feeling of joy n happiness that the best supermodels can’t match. Her eyes especially became the most beautiful to me, her smile, her body, everything was miles ahead of anyone else.
“At the same time I recognize that men like porn and like looking at attractive women so I can’t stop them, I just don’t want to be reminded of it all the time.”
I can understand that. I think I’d only ever look at porn during sex if my partner wanted to watch it, but even then I feel it might be distracting. Maybe the odd glimpse here n there could add extra spice but I dunno…I think mirrors around the bed would be sexier, get to see my parter and I going at it from different angles.
“I guess one way to explain it would be what if you knew your girlfriend really liked guys with big penises and you are below average. She is quite open about her love of big penises and likes looking at pictures of big penises. But when you tell her feel insecure about it, she tells you “don’t worry, it’s just a fantasy, I lIke you for other reasons. I know you have a small pensis but I like you for your personality!”. That would probably be upsetting, wouldn’t it? ”
Probably but even then I’d have to accept it, but I’d also be wondering if she likes them for the look, or how it feels, is it just fantasy like how some women have rape fantasies, maybe she likes a big cock in theory/fantasy but in reality it hurts her, I think fantasies are so complex that I shouldn’t dwell on my partners fantasy as I know even my fantasies differ from reality at times. I like seeing 3somes, but I’m not sure I’d like to be in one for instance, and when I was in love the desire to even try one was very low, if non-existant. I dunno how that would go down as the way it looks is sexy but the feelings arising during it might make me jealous, or maybe my partner would be jealous, who knows, it’s tricky…I think if I knew I could get her off successfully, that she still found me attractive I would be able to ignore the whole big cock fetish. The only worry I would have is not being able to satisfy her but it doesn’t mean I couldn’t satisfy her.
I feel insecure about my looks but if my partner wanted to watch porn which had good looking guys, I dunno if it’d bother me. I think it’d depend on if she is constantly looking at other men who are attractive, more so than me, and showing me that she wants someone else. If it’s more that she looks at me 90% of the time and has a quick look here n there at others I dunno if I’d care. It might actually be good, if she gets additional arousal, as long as she comes n uses it on me when we have sex. If I’m sick or away and she wants to masturbate to porn, go ahead, I dunno why but I don’t think I’d really care, I guess it’s disconnected, a feeling of just being fantasy and not a sign she wants to cheat to me. I don’t place my whole worth on my looks, I know my personality, etc to her would be beautiful and others can’t match that. I’m not realy worried about physical attraction to others, I’m more worried about mental attraction, if she starts to grow attached to someone else, or truly want to fuck someone else (not including a 3some I guess). I dunno how open I am as a partner though…
“This is where, as I think I said in an earlier comment, I think it is important sometimes not to be too open about one’s fantasies, simply out of consideration for the other person’s feelings. Porn is so prevalent now and so “out there,” it can feel like a constant blow to one’s self worth and value as a woman. Women know we are imperfect physically, especially if we aren’t 10′s or aren’t in the 20-25 age bracket, yet we are still sexual beings who want to be loved and desired.”
I think the big problem here is that women themselves are placing too much importance on looks, I swear it seems like women care more about physical beauty than men do. The problem is women putting their value so much in how they look, but I guess it’s similar to men putting their value in their bank account and how insecure they’d feel if their partner fantasized heavily about guys earning more. I don’t think women realize that a lot of guys don’t care all that much that their partner isn’t a 10, and there is far more to attraction than physical looks. For example I do value looks to some extent but a heart of gold is worth more, I’m not gonna fall for a supermodel who doesn’t have a great personality. At most I may want casual sex with her, just a physical lustful relationship, but a women who is older, isn’t as good looking with a great personality will win hands down. So when women get insecure their guy is looking at porn, maybe they need to realize that the guys is looking at it with only one of a few attraction systems going, hence why it’s often said to be just animal urges, women would do good to remind themelves that personality actually does mean a huge amount to many guys.
You won’t ever be the best looking woman, but you can definitely be the best person for your guy, you will still be physically attractive to most husbands/bf’s, and your personality will be the best he knows, he’ll be thinking of you when you aren’t around, or when he’s at work, not the pornstar with the hot young body. Hell most men probably be think their love first and foremost when horny, and the majority of time probably only you. Some may look at porn n jerk off if you aren’t around, but I’d say you enter his mind a hell of a lot and there are times where I myself will be watching porn and all I see on screen is penetration, 2 bodies, but one body is me, the other is my crush/love/whoever I like. I dunno what you’d call it, superimposing? It’s probably not politically correct but I do have it happen. So when a guy looks at porn, don’t assume he’s ONLY seeing the actress or thinking of banging her, a lot of the time your man could simply be looking at the sex itself and his imagination has you and him going at it. That’s why it’s not a great idea to try mind-read him, or compare yourself to the pornstar. Yeah I do look at beautiful women in porn at times simply for their beauty but I also look at women who closley resemble someone I like and think of them. Haven’t looked at porn in a relationship though so I can only give suggestions of what may happen with men and porn who have a partner.
“I won’t go so far as Naomi Wolf with regard to the Goddess in my pussy
but I think being the object of desire is important to many women’s sexual feelings, and porn undermines this which is why it feels upsetting to many (not all) women. I’m not being judgmental about men who like porn but just trying to explain the female reaction.”
I do hope these women realize that similarly their men should be worried when women look at romance movies, novels etc, even 50 shades of grey. They fantasize about being desired which is what men fantasize about too, it seems often women feel desired from romance, men feel desired from sex. I hear more women showing insecurity over porn, vs men over women looking at romance though, so are women more insecure or just more vocal about it?
I hate the term object of desire, women to me at not objects, I prefer the woman of desire, to be yearned for. I realize many women want to be the special person only desired by their partner, similar to men, porn is a tricky issue to deal with as I can see both sides of the fence have legitimate reasons to feel that way. I guess I can still feel desired whilst my partner looks at porn, or reads romance novels, how my partner treats me would be the indicator. If she’s giving me kisses n cuddles n wanting to fuck my brains out and telling me, I will feel desired, even if she occasionally looks at porn. If she looks at porn more than she wants me though, I’d feel less desired similar to some women are feeling. I still think the best thing to combat this is a mix of him making sure she feels desired, working out what is acceptable in their relationship for fantasy material (porn, romance novels, even sex toys need to be discussed), and both of them to truly find more about themselves to feel good about than just their looks, or sexuality. Placing all your eggs in one basket and feeling desired only by sexuality, or your looks is a great way to becoming insecure as looks fade, sexuality varies with life (eg having kids put a damper on it).
With my partners I try to make them know I value them for more than just their looks, there is also a hugeeeeee amount of value, more than their looks, from just that feeling of love which is so hard to describe with words, you can only really show it by actions.
Archy: “I think the big problem here is that women themselves are placing too much importance on looks, I swear it seems like women care more about physical beauty than men do. ”
Yeah, that’s why you said in the beginning of your post that men are more attracted to younger woman and actually attached numbers regarding a man’s attraction to a younger woman vs an older one? Because women care more about physical beauty then men do?
How come it’s okay for men to rate women on scales from 1-10, how come it’s okay for you to place numbers on your or another guy’s level of attraction to a younger woman vs an older, but it’s not okay for women to take away the messages you are giving us about our youth or beauty? Do you know how unfair it is for you to sit there and tell women they care too much about their physical beauty while you talk about how men like younger women more or how much men find other women more beautiful then their own partners? But women are the shallow ones because we worry about the impact or beauty or are fading beauty has on men. Oh but we are suppose to smile and think me nare so wonderful adn special as he jerks off to 18 year olds with perfect bodies and we are the selfish ones for taking away certain messages men are clearly sending to women about their worth. Thanks alot. Thanks alot for all that new pressure that we have to deal with.
“Yeah, that’s why you said in the beginning of your post that men are more attracted to younger woman and actually attached numbers regarding a man’s attraction to a younger woman vs an older one? Because women care more about physical beauty then men do?”
Huh? I thought we were talking about one male? When I said “You can feel attraction level 1000 for your partner, level 200 for a young woman in porn, level 170 for an older woman.” I didn’t mean all men, just this man in particular. It also has variables of his age, the age he is attracted to, eg to me an older women is 40+ and yes I am less attracted to 40+ year olds as they’re old enough to be my mother. But as I said it’s hard to quantify attraction, but in this particular case I meant that someone can be a BIT more attracted to younger women in general, but their attraction for their partner can be incomparible and much greater.
“How come it’s okay for men to rate women on scales from 1-10, how come it’s okay for you to place numbers on your or another guy’s level of attraction to a younger woman vs an older, but it’s not okay for women to take away the messages you are giving us about our youth or beauty?”
I don’t actually like putting numbers on attractiveness because I find it pointless, I only did it to try explain a point. This is one individual male I was talking about, you can’t start taking messages away from that as representative of all men.
“Do you know how unfair it is for you to sit there and tell women they care too much about their physical beauty while you talk about how men like younger women more or how much men find other women more beautiful then their own partners? But women are the shallow ones because we worry about the impact or beauty or are fading beauty has on men.”
Do you know how unfair and quite frankly stupid it is to expect to be seen as the most physically attractive person ever to your partner is? Not to mention entitled?
“Oh but we are suppose to smile and think me nare so wonderful adn special as he jerks off to 18 year olds with perfect bodies and we are the selfish ones for taking away certain messages men are clearly sending to women about their worth. Thanks alot. Thanks alot for all that new pressure that we have to deal with.”
Sure, beat yourself up some more whilst you misunderstand my point, not to mention fail at reading what I said. It varies person to person, relationship to relationship. You’ve proven time n time again that you haven’t understood men who are talking here, multiple guys have said that, so I really am starting to doubt the messages you’re getting from guys is really what they’re sending, and starting to think it’s more about your own insecurities, biases, etc that are feeding a negative cycle. Where did I say it was ok for people to rate others with numbers? I didn’t say it was good or bad, I said nothing about it.
Placing this huge amount of importance on your looks accomplishes what? Do you have no other traits about yourself that are decent? YOU WILL NEVER BE PERFECT, NO ONE IS PERFECT. Looks fade, it’s a fact of life, if your particular partner is looking at much younger women with perfect bodies and it bothers you then talk to him/her about it, it’s something the couple has to work out.
Is your entire self worth only your looks? All I hear is talk about looks and it really looks like you only think physical attraction matters, meanwhile I’m trying to tell you there is more to attraction than physical. Does the existance of these perfect 18 year olds make you ugly? Nearly everything I hear from women worried about attraction to males revolves around looks, physical attributes, nearly every complaint I hear from men about women has to do with personality issues. So yeah, I do believe women place way way too much importance on looks without realizing how important personality-based attraction is to men. You wanna compare yourself to porn? Porn is purely lust, what message can you take from it? Porn can’t compete with a partner for most people. Do you want to be the most beautiful woman to him physically? Well love can probably make that happen regardless of your actual looks, you can be more beautiful to him physically and in personality than those perfect 18′s. You can’t quantify love, at most I can give an estimate of what physical attraction is like but how the hell do you explain the feeling of love?
Half the problem is this huge importance on looks, pay more attention to a man’s attraction to other attributes. Your skin will grow old, your looks will fade, but that doesn’t make you ugly in his eyes, it doesn’t make you any less valued, doesn’t make you less beautiful. Yeah some 18 year old perfect swimsuit body may look better from the physical aspect only, but hey? Who the hell is perfect? Accept that you won’t be the most beautiful with physical looks alone and realize that if you’re dating someone, you’re already physically beautiful.
Everyone worries about their attractiveness, but what I am finding shallow is this hyperfocus many women seem to have with looks. Of course you’re going to have pressure if you focus that hard on looks alone, there comes a point when you need to just accept that looks fade but it doesn’t mean you’re ugly now. Looks don’t keep men around, relying purely on looks will maybe get you a casual relationship but hell if you have a shitty personality then who’s gonna wanna be with you (not you, but the general you)?
Everyone varies in what they like, trying to be the ideal beauty is a quest for failure, you won’t float everyones boat. Be yourself, love yourself, and hopefully you’ll find a partner that see’s the beauty of you and you both live happily ever after. I can understand the messages you get can be overwhelming and make you feel less attractive but you gotta keep in mind that physical attraction isn’t the only attraction system at work, and the existence of prettier women doesn’t make you ugly. It took me a long time to figure this out, I’m not trying to dismiss your pain here, I’m trying to give you a tip to live a happier life. Focusing on looks is a sure-fire way to make yourself feel like shit as you grow older, and men don’t fall in love simply because of looks.
Men are not these beasts that only feel lust and it’s time more women realized that, which is what these comment threads often reduce them down to be. Women’s worth is more than skin-deep, pretty much every guy I know seems to understand this, but fewer women I know understand it. The only guys I know that only care about looks are guys that are only interested in 1 night stands, casual sex ONLY, etc.
I am completely and utterly unsure of how to help you understand men better, I’ve tried, others have tried, but when you’re misunderstanding me so much and then feeling more pressure over it, it becomes extremely frustrating. I seriously and honestly believe that you are misunderstanding what we men are saying, I truly do believe you’re focusing way way too much on physical beauty and missing the bigger picture. You continuously come back to the youth and beauty statements, meanwhile I and other guys are talking about things we like in porn that have nothing to do with looks. I don’t particular see any other women talking or asking about stuff not relating to youth or looks (I may have missed it), so yeah I do honestly feel some women are pretty damn clueless to men, men’s sexuality, and what men like in porn. There are some that might understand but I don’t think they’re the majority. Yeah I am generalizing here a bit, it’s just a personal belief and I could be completely wrong but I am not convinced that either gender really understands the other’s sexuality.
Do you know how unfair it is to expect a partner to never find another woman as physically beautiful as you are? Maybe I am misunderstanding you bigtime here so lemme know if I am wrong. But I am at a complete loss to try explain it in a way you will understand, but maybe our values just differ so much that I don’t see porn nor fantasies about others as a big deal as long as they remain fantasies and I still am their number one fantasy. I dunno how to help you reduce the pressure you feel, but all I can say is this ALL varies person to person and I am sure there will be men similar to you who you will be great with. There are 7billion people, and all of them have individual tastes, desires, etc.
Thank you for calling me stupid and entitled. Not to mention insecure, biased and basically shallow.
Thank you for undermining me as a person and my comments while making it seem like you know everything and got it all right and that everyone should listen to you.
I get it perfectly Archy. You and other men are allowed to place a high importance on women’s looks. To the point that you qualify women based on numbers or are very vocal about how much men in general like younger women. Men are allowed to judge our bodies and pick us based on what our bodies offer. You can sort through a billion porn videos and find exactly the thing you want from a woman in that video. But when women talk about the issues this presents for them and the questions they have concerning their looks and sexuality and how that factors into what men are desiring, all the sudden we are just insecure and shallow. Apparently men are allowed to be shallow and objectify women based on their looks. But when women are confronted with dealing with how men see their beauty, we are just shallow and we are less understanding of something than you apparently are. All you have done is tell me how wrong I am and how right you are. And you’ve done it with harsh criticisms and name calling and completely tactless and insensitive comments about beauty, looks and how apparently women aren’t suppose to have any questions concerning it while men are allowed to objectify women all day long. That isn’t fair. Maybe you are the one that doesn’t “get it” Archy. Did you ever stop to think about that? Maybe you are the one that doesn’t understand women very well. Did you ever stop to think about that?
I see this same justification all the time. Men want the privilege to set the terms of what is physically beautiful in women. They want the privilege to have entire media dedicated to the appeal of the way a woman looks and using that woman’s looks for his own personal pleasure. They want to be able to dictate women’s worth based on their age or rate them on scales. Yet when women talk about the relationship they have with their looks or they have sincere heartfelt issues or questions about the way they see men act regarding women’s looks, all you can do is tell me (and women like me) that I/we are shallow. But you? Apparently you aren’t shallow.
You haven’t reduced any pressure I feel. All you’ve done is make me feel more frustrated and pressured and like I should be ashamed and that I am apparently shallow and stupid and entitled. Thanks a whole lot.
Erin and Archy, please refrain from rehashing this argument over and over again on the boards and in articles similar to this one. If you would like to discuss the benefits and detriments of porn, please take it offline and discuss there.
Women can think of their value in their looks all they want, all I’m saying is it’s pointless to compare your looks to a fantasy medium that may or may not represent what he wants. I don’t understand how you find this so difficult to understand, it’s as stupid as thinking he’s a serial killer for playing GTA.
I wasn’t talking at all about women’s worth, I was talking about a single man’s attraction level to various women, not every man’s. I don’t think you’ll ever understand what I am talking about because you’re reading something else in my comments that are not there. You’re completely misunderstanding what I am saying, there’s no point to this argument anymore and the moderator is saying stop so it’s time to stop.
LOL!
“And then, you hear the same guys who watch porn disrespecting women who do it. They’d never want THEIR partner to be in porn. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. Sometimes, if a woman dares to say these things, she’s pounced upon like she’s some crazy, controlling prude. ”
I hate the guys that pull that shit, if you can’t respect the women in porn then don’t look at them! I can understand not wanting your partner to be in porn, but don’t disrespect the pornstars. Could I date a pornstar? Solo based porn probably, but with others I dunno, I’d probably get too jealous and be worried about STI’s, etc. But then I am someone that doesn’t want an open relationship either, I still respect those who have open relationships though. I am probably monogymous, I’d possibly try a 3some but even that might feel awkward. I’m not sure how well it’d go down with people I know, I’d probably be telling them to quit being such judgmental lil shits, I already bark at people who say stuff about strippers. I’ve heard people goto strippers, then talk shit about them which realllllly fires me up. I mean why go see them if they’re that bad to you? Only people that should get the opportunity to see others naked are those who have 100% respect for them as people and not people that look at them like meat or look down upon them as dirty.
I can definitely be friends with porn stars, strippers, sex workers, whatever, only people I’d stay away from would be predatory people, like bad lawyers, rapists, violent people, etc. I don’t see anything wrong with people who have a career in the adult entertainment industry or sex industry, there are plenty of industries people look up to that are actually morally corrupt such as dirty bankers, etc.
“Part of why they’re specifically reacting to you is because your generalizations actually do include them, and the womansplaining parts have been demeaning themselves.”
I feel really demeaned when you tell me my opinion is a matter of “womansplaining”. As if my having certain thoughts is only because I am a woman. Is it possible for you to stop using this phrase? It’s not a very positive one. We are all human beings and we don’t have “mansplaining” or “womansplainging” opinions.
“There are things in your comments which wander from speaking of personal opinion to speaking fact, so it’s obvious why men (especially me) are getting defensive and annoyed. “
You do the same thing! Our opinions are a combination of personal opinion and what we think are facts. This is not offensive to me. I am not sure why it’s offensive to you when I do it but it’s okay when you do it.
“Do you think this is all or just most porn? Is there porn that can actually celebrate women? I find it hard to believe Camille Crimson’s porn rips apart women’ femininity and sexuality.”
As I’ve said before, most porn isn’t very celebratory of women at all. Just male fantasy. I don’t even know who “Camille Crimson” is.
“Access to porn + a culture that accepts sexuality being more open is finally upon us, if the internet were in roman days I guarantee porn use would have been high too.”
Access to porn and more porn isn’t about acceptance of sexuality. I am also not very interested in what would have been in Roman days. I am interested in how much porn men and increasingly women are using. We seem to enjoy voyerism much more then actual real life sex in our culture.
“Hookup culture is also at one of it’s highest points too in history from what I know, sexuality is becoming more unrestricted. Do you want to go back to previous times? “
I want a time to evolve where human approach to sexuality is actually healthy and not one reeked in prudishness and not one reeked in aggresive hookup sex and not one where people are more interested in watching porn and “learning” from it hen exploring their sexuality on heir own independent of porn.
“In the next decade I think the degrading stuff will drop in ratio with the good stuff, especially as more ethical porn is produced and more women take charge in making porn.”
I still have no clue what “ehtical” porn even means or how every man that watches “ethical” porn knows it’s “ethical”. If this was going to happen, why hasn’t it happened already? Men have had bilions of years of porn right? Why isn’t it by now already “fair”? I don’t really think men will ever want something fair. If it’s not about calling women names, then it’s about uphodling stereotypes women are expected to live up to and men with daughters looking at women/girls young enough to be their daughters.
“There is also proof that women’s sexuality and femininity is celebrated, just depends what you watch.”
Not if old stereotypes are always alive and well in porn. Such as the ideas that white, thin, young , big breasts women are best. And yes, this stereotype still pervades. But it’s fantasy so its suppose to be okay. Oh but that’s right ladies! Don’t be affected by this even as your man is. You must be stronger then that while he can revel around in it.
“Porn isn’t going away, condemn the bad stuff but celebrate the good stuff, the medium is going through changes as amateur content is skyrocketing. “
How about I celebrate real sexuality between two people and not videos? Is that okay? Or is that no longer okay anymore to encourage people to have actual human connections?
Also, when did “amateur” become defined as “healthy” or “good” content? Who is determining that? You? Who says that because something isn’t filmed in an expensive studio that it’s a healthy representation of sex? Who says that people even know they are being posted having sex all the time? Who said “amateur” meant “healthy”
“Attitudes towards sex itself are changing, and hopefully for the better, the time you speak of when porn wasn’t used much was also a time when women had far less rights, were stuck even more so in gender roles, sexuality was oppressed. Was it really a better time?”
Oh I see..because women have more rights we should be happy with what we get today???????????
“If anythign men are far more egalitarian today than before, and I do think porn is changing and adapting to that. Of the porn views who have commented here at least, they are indicating a desire to look for ethical porn, that says something at least?”
I don’t even know what ethical porn is or how you know that all the porn you look at is ethical. I do know that a lot of porn out there exists treating women like they are worthless or making women’s worth dependent on their age or bodies. The woman is usually the one focused on because she is the object used for masturbation.
“The desire to look at porn will probably always exist, it’s better to talk about porn and acknowledge the good porn at least and direct people towards that than to simply deem it all degrading and throw it out. That is my point, I hope you will at least ask men n women to look at ethical porn where they can and to boycott the bad stuff.”
I would ask people to put down the porn for a change and re-learn how to be just one on one with someone and not having a need to turn to all these outside outlets to self regulate themselves. It scares me how much men specifically have let porn take over their lives.
“Part of why they’re specifically reacting to you is because your generalizations actually do include them, and the womansplaining parts have been demeaning themselves.”
“I feel really demeaned when you tell me my opinion is a matter of “womansplaining”. As if my having certain thoughts is only because I am a woman. Is it possible for you to stop using this phrase? It’s not a very positive one. We are all human beings and we don’t have “mansplaining” or “womansplainging” opinions. ”
Ugh, are you really having this much trouble understanding it? THERE is a huge difference between saying “I think men think of old women as x, and young women as y” vs saying “MEN think of old women as x, and young women as y”. When you ask what men think, they reply, then you ignore that and state specifically what men think about when they look at porn, you aren’t stating an opinion that you think men look at porn, you’re stating a fact without ever being able to truly know what one man thinks, let alone all men. I dunno how to explain this any further to you, and weren’t you someone who agreed with the mansplaining article? Fine, take gender out of it, You’re ‘splaining to us men, telling us our own experience. I don’t mean the times you say you think men do this, I mean when you specifically state it. You’re free to say your opinion all you want, just don’t ‘splain to us. If I am doing it, call me out on it because I don’t intend to do it.
“You do the same thing! Our opinions are a combination of personal opinion and what we think are facts. This is not offensive to me. I am not sure why it’s offensive to you when I do it but it’s okay when you do it. ”
Call me out on it, I specifically try to state much of it as opinion vs fact. The only stuff I state as fact is stuff I can usually backup.
“We seem to enjoy voyerism much more then actual real life sex in our culture.”
Go ask every guy here if they prefer porn or real life sex. I dunno how you could even think such a thing, Nearly everyone will say they prefer real sex and I’ll gladly state that as fact because if I am wrong then you can shoot me.
“I want a time to evolve where human approach to sexuality is actually healthy and not one reeked in prudishness and not one reeked in aggresive hookup sex and not one where people are more interested in watching porn and “learning” from it hen exploring their sexuality on heir own independent of porn. ”
Advocate for high quality sex education, that’s the only way you will get porn out of sex lives to the extent I believe you want. People need access to the actual how-to guides for having sex, and they need it in highschool. Porn only teachs because it’s the only material that is so popular and does so at the age of learning of sexuality (post-puberty). If teens don’t get access to the how-to, curiosity is probably going to lead them to the industry built on showing sex. They need a healthy outlet for their sexuality, some porn can fulfill that of course but other stuff is bad for them.
“I still have no clue what “ehtical” porn even means or how every man that watches “ethical” porn knows it’s “ethical”. If this was going to happen, why hasn’t it happened already? ”
NOT ALL MEN ARE THE SAME FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME
“I don’t really think men will ever want something fair.”
If I said I don’t really think men will ever want something fair, what would you call me? Do you mean some men, all men, most men? What is “men”?
“How about I celebrate real sexuality between two people and not videos? Is that okay? Or is that no longer okay anymore to encourage people to have actual human connections? ”
Of course it’s ok, why wouldn’t it be?
“Also, when did “amateur” become defined as “healthy” or “good” content? Who is determining that? You? Who says that because something isn’t filmed in an expensive studio that it’s a healthy representation of sex? Who says that people even know they are being posted having sex all the time? Who said “amateur” meant “healthy””
It has a higher chance of being healthy if you had bothered to ever actually read my comments. A couple having sex at home on their camera is a much more realistic portrayal of human sexuality than a paid-for production.
“Oh I see..because women have more rights we should be happy with what we get today???????????”
I’d say happier, but hey, misread what I said some more.
“I don’t even know what ethical porn is or how you know that all the porn you look at is ethical. I do know that a lot of porn out there exists treating women like they are worthless or making women’s worth dependent on their age or bodies. The woman is usually the one focused on because she is the object used for masturbation.”
I don’t think you want to learn what it is so I’m not goign to waste my time saying it. Google it, or go ask Camille in this thread ht tp://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-good-life-how-to-receive-a-blowjob-respectfully/
“I would ask people to put down the porn for a change and re-learn how to be just one on one with someone and not having a need to turn to all these outside outlets to self regulate themselves. It scares me how much men specifically have let porn take over their lives.”
Send a woman my way and I’d be glad to. Why only the men? Does it scare you how much women have let it take over their lives? I mean women that actually enjoy porn like “the men” do? Go tell my disabled friend who finds it extremely difficult to get women’s attention, who’s never had a date to put the porn down. Or, how about you date him? I can understand you telling married men, etc to put the porn down, but what about single people who have been knocked back time n time again?
This article is harmful. The hardcore porn industry is completely disrespectful and denigrating to women ins general, and to the women it employs. Porn adversely affects every man that uses it, no matter if he admits it or not. It reduces something God created to be special, unique, beautiful, valuable, to something that is mundane, ugly, and everyday.
Most of us would love it if sex was everyday!
I’m not sure what you mean – God did create porn or at least facilitated it. Surely our creator should have anticipated that by putting up nice blank cave walls that we would be destined to draw genitals on them, no?
God gave people free will. He doesn’t want people to have a relationship with him simply because he forced them too and took that choice away from them. He gives us a lot of room for a lot of choices. What we do with it is ultimately our choice. I also don’t think that it’s a simple matter of “drawing genitals” in a clinical way that is offensive to God. But more of how we may not fully respect our bodies by giving credence to what feels good for us first rather then thinking of others or the consequences or implications of how we are treating others and even ourselves.
Wait, how is it you people know the mind of God?
Clearly no one entirely knows the mind of God but all we can do is go off how we interpret his teachings based on the information we have. It’s not all suppose to be mapped out to perfection. There is a little element of “faith” God quite enjoys.
Which god? Porn is sinful to some, but ok to others. God also apparently hates homosexuality too and says that is a sin in some religions, and that women should obey their husbands as he is the head of the household. No sex till marriage, yadda yadda.
If god is all knowing, and all powerful, surely his/her mind-power is so great that he can see into the future and know the interactions of every molecule, thought n process in the universe? Even the bigbang would need to be created, everything would be put into place in the right order so that billions of years later humans evolve and he’d know how they would evolve, how they would evolve their culture n finally how religion is born. Or he created the world in 6000 years, atom by atom, and the same principle remains. If he is the creator, did he just close his eyes n jumble up everything or did he specifically place each atom in a specific position? If he did the latter than there is no such thing as free will because the environment, and all interactions are fully known by him and due to being specifically placed it means he’s setup a mega domino set and knows exactly how it will play out, to his design.
Free will can only exist if he is not all knowing, and isn’t able to comprehend the interaction of all elements, atoms, etc. So either he is not all knowing, or he engineered us to be sinful then guilts us for our apparently freewill, or there is no god. Which is it? Quite frankly I believe if he does exist then I don’t think he can be all knowing as some say otherwise freewill doesn’t exist and we’re simply reacting to the sum of our environment, learning, our instincts n biology, on a pre-set course that he already knows what will happen. We have the illusion of free will in that theory, but we’re still slaves to a designed future if it’s true.
Which God hates homosexuality? I am not really sure what God’s position is on homosexuality. Sometimes people take Bible passages out of context.
But yes, the Bible does talk about how women should obey their husbands. However, this is not because God desires a servant/master relationship. He also gives instructions to men in the Bible about how to be good husbands. The advice he gives both men and women do come down to respecting one another in the unique way a man or woman experiences respect.
I won’t pretend that I have God or regilion all figured out. If I did, it would defeat the purpose of having faith. But I know that God gave humanity free will because he gave Adam and Eve free will. He gave then enough knowledge to not touch one thing and he gave them free will to make that choice for themselves. Just because God is all knowing, beyond anything human beings can grasp, doesn’t mean he didn’t give human beings free will. Free will can perfectly exist in the presence of an all knowing God. I don’t pretend to have anything close to the same amount of understanding and comprehension as God. And when I don’t have clear cut answers, I give them up to God in those cases. But that is just how I practice religion. I don’t demand that you or other people accept or adopt the way I see it. Religion is a very personal thing and a journey that is unique to an individual.
Considering atoms, etc only move in a set pattern, and react to their environment, if this universe was created by an all knowing god then he’d know fully how everything interacts and know every single choice that will be made. I can’t see how logically he can be that powerful if he gave them free will, he would have to create a mental block surrounding the actions of humans or purposely block out parts of his design in his mind so he can’t predict the future. Something seems amiss to me and that always caught my eye about the theory of him being all powerful. You’d have to close your mind and design away to ensure you don’t design in future choices if you also designed their environment.
I don’t pretend that I have the whole world figured out Archy. Clearly religion is also a matter of faith. It is not fully explained by science. It never will be. Heck, even some things that are explained by science are still not fully understood. Even some things that are explained by science sometimes years later come out that they weren’t true at all. Science isn’t infallible. Human understanding of the world isn’t infallible.
I do know a few truths that I live my life by personally:
God is real
God is all knowing
God created human beings to have free will
My little human mind can’t not even begin to comprehend all the ways God operates. For me, it would be egotistical to pretend that it could.
Perhaps God does know how everything little thing will end up. Doesn’t mean he didn’t give us free will. Angels have free will too. Which is why Lucifer fell to his decent. It’s also why Adam and Eve disobeyed God. These examples show that free will exists in the same world that was created by God.
I understand the conundrum you are having. I am not saying i got it all figured out. All I am saying is that I believe in God, I have faith in him and I know that I have free will to choose a relationship with God or not.
I do not request you think the same thing I think or believe. Whatever you may believe we are still both human beings and we are equals. But you are not going to change my perception on these topics even if you believe you are using science to do so.
I think anything is possible, hence I am agnostic, not atheist. I have no idea if a god or god’s exist or not, if they do I want a fusion power plant!
It should be noted that atheist doesn’t mean “believes there are no gods,” it means “doesn’t have a belief that there is a god.” It may seem like a semantic difference, but that difference leads to a lot of acrimony and misunderstanding.
Don’t kid yourself, you’re an atheist just like Erin is. Neither you nor Erin lose any sleep in not believing in Vishnu, or Odin, or Zeus. Neither of you wonder whether you should be following Baal, whether Quetzalcoatl will grant you wisdom, or if Ishkur will spare you trouble on your journey. With respect to the hundreds of known gods, neither of you give a second thought to dismissing them. Your lack of belief in those gods is what makes you an atheist with respect to those gods. Of course, Erin has faith that one of those many gods, Ēl Shaddāi, does exist whereas it sounds like you do not.
There is a term “positive atheism” (also known as “strong atheism”) that asserts that no gods exist. I would hazard a guess that for the many gods I listed above, both you and Erin are positive atheists. With respect to Yahweh, however, Erin has unwarranted belief (otherwise known as “faith”) whereas you lack belief. That would make you a strong atheist for some number of gods, and a negative atheist for some other number of gods while Erin is a strong atheist for all gods except one, for which she is a theist.
Nick, I respect your right to set the terms of your faith or non-faith for yourself and label yourself or not label yourself whatever title you’d like to use to express that facet of your life. However, when you begin labeling others and attaching titles to them as if it’s “truth”, in essence, dictating the terms by which I (and Archy) practice certain parts of our lives, acting like you know who I am or what I am about in combination with that, you become insulting and condesending. Don’t ever again dictate to me what my belief system is or attach labels on me that I have not agreed to because of what you have decided is your understanding of religion in general. You are clearly a well read and smart man. You throw around book titles and drop names like Santa throws around candy at a New York Jets football game. But you don’t know everything and you don’t know me. And the terms you’ve set for reglion are not the terms I have set for religion.
No. I am not an atheist. However, if you want to give yourself the title of atheist, that is up to you. Don’t ever again tell me what I am or what I believe.
Hi 5 Erin for standing up for your beliefs.
I recently read some of the Sumarian faith (Anunnaki and friends) and how the movie Prometheus was based on it. I gotta say the Sumarian setup was pretty interesting, but I find the most fascinating beliefs were the roman and greek gods (zeus, etc). I don’t believe in those faiths, but I gotta hand it to them for creativity if it isn’t the actual gods if they do exist.
That’s funny, coming from someone who’s shown no hesitance in telling others what they believe, and what their motivations are.
You seem to be all in a huff and yet I don’t think you’ve actually understood what I’ve said. I didn’t say you’re an atheist, full stop. I said you’re an atheist with respect to the gods I listed, and the many hundreds of gods I didn’t, but that you’re a theist when it comes to Yahweh, the God of the bible.
For the latter part of my assertion I’ve only repeated what you’ve written yourself. You’ve self-identified as a Christian. So, are you a theist concerning Yahweh or are you not?
For the former part, I’ve made two assumptions. First, I’ve made the assumption that you do not believe in the gods I listed. For example, you do not believe that Zeus is a real god, or that there is a good probability that Zeus is real. Am I incorrect on this account or do you not have a belief in any of those other gods?
Second, I’ve made an assumption that because you identify as Christian, you believe Yahweh is the one, true god. That necessarily excludes a belief in any and all other gods from existing.
Again, the definition of “atheist” is not having a belief in god. With respect to Yahweh, you are not an atheist, you are a theist. With respect to all of the other so-called gods, you don’t have a belief in them therefore you’re an atheist with respect to all those other gods.
Please explain to me why this is a controversial statement? Do you disagree with any of those statements about your belief? Are you a Christian that believes there might be or are gods other than Yahweh? Because that’s the only way in which what I’ve asserted might be inaccurate.
From Wiki:
“Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.”
“Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable. Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the difference between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that humanity does not currently possess the requisite knowledge and/or reason to provide sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.”
“Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists. In a more specific sense, theism is a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God and God’s relationship to the universe. Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism. The use of the word theism to indicate this classical form of monotheism began during the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century in order to distinguish it from the then-emerging deism which contended that God, though transcendent and supreme, did not intervene in the natural world and could be known rationally but not via revelation.”
You can’t be atheist to one god but theist to another? From these definitions as I understand it, Erin is simply a theist and I am simply an agnostic. Someone who believes in at least one god is a theist, it’s impossible to be athiest if you believe in ANY god.
All I am asking is that you not define my religious beliefs for me. I don’t think that’s a terrible thing to ask. I think most people wouldn’t enjoy someone else characterizing their own personal beliefs. I respect your right to assuage your own religion in your life anyway you choose and choose the terms that you believe best fit your beliefs or yourself.
And yes, I do understand what you are saying. I don’t think you really understand the true definition of atheism anyway. I also am not interested in answering to you for my religious beliefs either way.
By the way, where have I told others what they believe or what their motivations are? I have certainly made generalities on a general basis. But when have I ever said, “Nick believes “x” so I will call him “z””?
There is one thing you have gotten right. You’ve made assumptions. You think because you’re well read that you can dictate the terms of who other people are.
Sometimes when people are too invested in intellectual pursuits, they sometimes loose sight of other things in translation.
Thanks Archy.
I wanted to stick up for you too since Nick’s comments where in regards to you too a bit but I didn’t want to speak for you since that might not be fair either.
I always found Greek mythology very interesting myself. It was part of the reason I took four years of Latin in school. The history and mythology is really interesting stuff.
If one of my students had used that Wiki entry to define those terms they would have gotten a C- at best.
When we use the word “atheist” without any qualifier, you can assume it to mean that someone doesn’t have a belief in any gods. However that’s not how I used the term.
When we go down the list of gods, we definitely have positions on each of them. Some gods we think are possible, others fanciful. We don’t say, “well, I’m not entirely sure if the FSM exists or not. I need some more data. I’m agnostic about the existence of FSM.” No, we know that the FSM was a creation of Bobby Henderson. How then do we describe our belief in FSM? Do we say we’re agnostic about FSM because we might be agnostic about Jehovah? No, we clearly hold one belief about FSM, and another about Jehovah. That’s all I’m saying.
This idea of “atheist” and “theist” being about a particular deity – specifically the god of Abraham – is a simply an example of how we view the world from our Western lens. Is a Hindu a theist, atheist, agnostic, or other? If you go by Wikipedia, perhaps all of the above? Or none of the above? It simply makes no sense to have these terms as overarching categories.
Now you may be agnostic about a few gods. You may think there is insufficient evidence to believe or not believe in Allah, or Siddartha. But that doesn’t mean you’re agnostic about all of the hundred of gods that have been proposed.
And yet, simply stating a fact that should be so plain as to be unremarkable is yet so controversial. I’m curious why that is.
I don’t need an answer, I have it already.
Is it not curious though that what I’ve written isn’t untrue, and yet you still have such a visceral reaction to it?
Oh, and as for your question:
It looks like you’ve already answered it.
This isn’t the first time either; you frequently write like that. Perhaps to you that is simply a rhetorical style, but that’s not how it comes across. One would think from the reactions to your comments you would have realized that by now, particularly when others have explicitly told you so. One would apparently be mistaken.
“I always found Greek mythology very interesting myself. It was part of the reason I took four years of Latin in school. The history and mythology is really interesting stuff.”
Thanks. It’s one of my favourite genres for movies n games.
I’m sorry Nick, but did Archy sign up for your class and that’s why you are telling him what his “grade” would be?
Unfortunately for you Nick, no one here is your student and I doubt Archy is any more interested in your “grades” than I am. Have fun molding the minds of impressionable young people.
At the end of the day, you clearly want the power to be able to dictate toward others what they believe in and attach labels to them. Really I get it. You’ve read a lot of books. Kudos to you. I look forward to see more book and author name dropping in your posts in the future. Perhaps I can work in some grading structure of my own. Clearly you can not respect my request to not label or define my personal beliefs. For that, I wouldn’t even give you a C.
By the way Nick, it’s just a fact that you obviously believe that because you are well read, that you can dictate the terms of who other people are. This is exactly what you’ve showcased in this thread and in others.
To be clear, that was a comment on the Wikipedia entry, not Archy.
Yes, that’s exactly what I want. Bwah ha ha ha ha! Fear me, mere mortals, for I have the power to label a belief!
Clearly I am missing where, after you made your request, I then ignored it. Can you quote that please? My eyesight is failing me at such a late hour, and I can’t find where, in the comments I’ve made subsequent to your demand, I continued to assert you’re a theist with respect to Yahweh or a Christian.
“To be clear, that was a comment on the Wikipedia entry, not Archy.”
You said that if one of your students had used *that* Wiki entry, *they* would have gotten a C- at best. You said *they* would have received the grade. I don’t see how your comment is simply related to Wiki and not related to the person that used it.
“Yes, that’s exactly what I want. Bwah ha ha ha ha! Fear me, mere mortals, for I have the power to label a belief!”
Lol, I have to admit I laughed sincerely at that even if I still disagree with you.
“Clearly I am missing where, after you made your request, I then ignored it. Can you quote that please? My eyesight is failing me at such a late hour, and I can’t find where, in the comments I’ve made subsequent to your demand, I continued to assert you’re a theist with respect to Yahweh or a Christian.”
You continue to re-enforce over simplified concepts of religion and belief systems.
Were you raised Jewish?
You clearly believe me to be portionally an “atheist”. I would be fine if you had said, ” I believe that people can be portionally atheists if they deny the existance of other gods. ” Fine. That’s what you believe.
But when you say things like this: ““Don’t kid yourself, you’re an atheist just like Erin. Neither you nor Erin lose any sleep in not believing in Vishnu, Odin, Zeus…”, it’s so offensive and dictating the terms which others choose to live their life.
What kind of statement is “Niether you nore Erin lose any sleep in not believing in..” other gods anyway? LIke you do lose sleep over this? LIke if we don’t lose sleep over it it means we don’t give other religions respect? Statements about what people do or don’t lose sleep over sound rather antagonistic.
You go on to talk about how we don’t give a second thought to dismissing them and my “unwarrented” beliefs. Who the heck are you to qualify what I am dismissive of or not? Who are you to say what warrants my beliefs or doesn’t? How do you know what my religious journey as been and what questions I’ve struggled with?
Please keep the subject on topic. Any other arguments can be taken offline.