Joanna Schroeder believes women-identified folks should be leading and defining the feminist movement, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for male allies.
A few months ago, I watched in horror as a friend of mine engaged in a debate with a feminist blogger about the role of men in feminism.
“That’s not what I believe feminism is about,” my friend tweeted, when he was asked to stop trying to assert what women need.
A sound screeched through my head like brakes on a train, headed for disaster. My friend is a man, and the feminist blogger is a woman.
I DM’d my friend, trying to stop him from walking into a disaster of his own making.
“Hey, I know you mean well, but you don’t have any place telling a woman what feminism is supposed to look like.”
He didn’t DM back. Instead, my phone rang.
“Wait, do you really believe that? That men don’t get a say in feminism?”
Yeah, I believe that. And I’m going to tell you why.
***
As an editor and a writer, I believe that the subject of the story should be the one telling the story. It’s pretty simple.
And when it comes to women’s lives and rights, the future belongs in the hands of women. For generations, women’s lives and futures were entirely in the hands of men. For a large part of recorded history, we were somebody’s property. Even when we were given the right to vote in the U.S. in 1920, it was because the men in power decided we should be allowed.
Pause for a moment and consider that. When we were finally considered true citizens of this nation, it was because the men––the bosses, the owners––decided that we could. Yes, our foremothers fought and suffered for that change, but that history, that ownership, is one reason why women need to be leading the fight for women’s equality.
***
There is no debate over whether women are better off in the United States today than they were a few generations ago, but we have a long way to go. When it comes to Fortune 500 companies, we only make up five percent of the CEOs. That means there are only 25 of us out of 500. And only 18 percent of congress members are women.
These numbers are amazing compared to 1920, but horrifying and embarrassing considering that it’s been nearly 100 years since we were allowed the vote. We also face so many other challenges that it’s nearly impossible to list them all.
With mountains this huge to climb, we need men on our side. We need men supporting us, offering us their skills and resources, and speaking up for our issues. We need them at least partly because they are still in power. They are still our bosses. They are still signing our paychecks and writing our laws.
But where does the role of men in our movement end?
This question is something we think about nearly every day at The Good Men Project, where I serve as the Executive Editor. After a few years of tumult in deciding the focus and ethical grounding of our magazine, it became clear to us that being allied in the fight for equality for women was a crucial part of the discussion of what it means to be a good man in the 21st Century.
When people ask if The Good Men Project is a feminist publication, I try to make clear that we are “pro-feminist.” The GMP cannot, by its nature, be a feminist publication. We are a site for men, about men. Our focus is on fatherhood, male survivors of abuse and sexual violence, the changing role of men in the family and the workplace, gender expression, GBTQ issues, the role of men as husbands and partners and more. But we feel that the discussion about what is good for men cannot be had unless we are committed to being allies for equality for all people.
***
Trudy, author of Gradient Lair, where you’ll read some of the best feminist insights on the Internet today, wrote a post in 2013 that summed up one of the most important ways feminist-allied men need to challenge themselves:
One of my Black male feminist followers tweeted that he had to get over the notion of being women’s ‘heroes’ as a male feminist; that’s male privilege. And heroism, in this context, feeds into patriarchy anyway.
We don’t need to be ‘saved.’ We need everyone committed to justice—justice which truly benefits Black men as well. Patriarchy, patriarchal masculinity and phallocentrism destroys them; intersectional feminism isn’t the culprit.
Ariel Chesler, the son of noted second-wave feminist Phyllis Chesler, dug into his own questions about his role in feminism in a blog post on The Good Men Project.
While I believe that men, including myself, are and can be feminists, we must also walk a careful line. OnTwitter, as with any public space, male voices are often heard the loudest. And, sadly, for some to hear important messages, the messenger must be a man. It is crucial to remember that sometimes the best way for men to support women and feminism is by listening or amplifying women’s voices.
Curious what his mother thought of this, I emailed her and asked. This part of her reply stood out most to me:
In my 1997 book, Letters to a Young Feminist, I addressed my last letter to ‘A Young Feminist, Who Happens to be a Man, Who Happens to be my Son.’
In it, I explained why so many feminists of my Second Wave generation remained wounded, psychologically slighted, by the universal preference for sons, not daughters, and by the terrible truths about women’s lives that we were only discovering. Thus, we ‘were trying to practice preferring women.’ Feminism quickly became a female-only ghetto: Turf.
I told Ariel: ‘Do not be surprised if some feminist women reject you simply because you are a man—or worse, follow you blindly for the same reason.’
There is a time and a place for women-only conversation—and then there is the public marketplace, the village well, the common conversation in which all voices may be heard. What to do with hateful voices, domineering voices, and with their destructive actions—ah, that is a question for the ages.
***
One guy who often gets allyship right is Jamie Kilstein. Kilstein is a comedian, a writer and the co-host of Citizen Radio. He said, “My role is to shut the fuck up, essentially. To listen, to be supportive when asked, and most importantly—and this is the hardest part, especially for dudes who get everything handed to them for the most part – is when women call you out and say, ‘what you’re doing isn’t helping’, even if it’s coming from what you think is a just position, not to then lash out at the women you’re trying to help. The first thing you need to do is listen, and not make it about you.”
Kilstein also noted that he tries to speak out about stories in the public eye that relate to the issues women face, but when it comes to truly personal movements, like the recent Twitter hashtag #YesAllWomen, his job isn’t to participate, but to help amplify the messages by retweeting women and going up against sexist men who may be trying to interfere.
***
I think the primary focus of men in our movement should be to speak to other men, and engage them in gaining equality for women, as well as working to support the efforts to change outdated ideals of masculinity, which include domination and violence.
Jamie Kilstein did a fantastic, and amazingly funny, job of this in his viral stand-up comedy set about rape culture. Kilstein managed to talk about women’s daily fear of being raped in a way that even the average dude could relate to. He opened minds by using his talents and platform to get a feminist message out to people who may have never even thought about rape culture.
So how do we invite men into our movement without handing over the reigns? Anne Theriault, of The Belle Jar, explains, “If you want to be a good feminist man, you need to learn to be challenged. You need to learn to feel uncomfortable. Above all, you need to shut up and listen.”
She actually says a lot more than that, and I encourage everyone to read her blog post on the subject. But the essence of the message is this: Guys, be a part of what we’re doing, but be willing to let your voice be the supporting player, not the lead. Realize that it’s not that we don’t think you have value, it’s that we believe that in this conversation, we deserve to be in charge.
Originally appeared at Daily Dot, reprinted with full permission.
Joanna Schroeder serves as executive editor of the Good Men Project and is a freelance writer whose work has appeared on sites like xoJane, hlntv.com, and the Huffington Post.
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Photo: Flickr/Krystal T
If feminism is to be equality for both women and men then treating men like you said in your comments is not equal , and one more thing what did feminism do for men , not a dam thing.
I am a millenial woman, raised by a feminist mom and a feminist dad who rode the second wave of feminism in the ’60s. I do not identify as a feminist or believe in many of its ideals, and your article describes why. Feminism has become an institution. It has its leaders, its list of beliefs, its code of conduct, and its rules for membership. If you aren’t the correct type of person and you don’t hold the correct views and you don’t express your views in the correct way, you will get kicked out. Feminism claims to fight for… Read more »
Joanna, what would you expect people to think if they see the very group dedicated towards achieving gender equality, is a group that treats one gender completely differently from the other?
So, does that mean that a male feminist cannot tell a female TERF that feminism is not supposed to be transphobic?
This is not meant as an attack or to muddy the waters. This is mostly the literal, Aspergerian side of my brain talking now. I really am asking this out of curiosity — how could a women-only feminist forum actually be enforced in an online context? You knew the man personally, knew he identified as male, and you could talk to him on the phone, so there was no mistake about his gender in that case. But, I wonder what would happen on a feminist blog if someone expressed an opinion about feminism and you didn’t know if the writer… Read more »
I follow an anti-feminist woman on facebook who shares (often humourous) stories about feminists accusing her of only posing as woman, because she advocates for men’s issues. I know that probably doesn’t satisfy your curiosity, but I think that it’s interesting.
“Safe spaces” for women online, or indeed ANYONE online, don’t exist and can’t exist in a free and open internet. The flip-side is that everyone has a voice. It is as it should be.
It would not only mean that they have a “non-feminist” but more importantly a representative of an MRM. Just as religious groups are required to have atheists.
-Gender equality is for everyone. You cannot have a hierarchy within an equality movement. I’m a male who is feminist, and my feminism is not subordinate to any given female’s feminism, and not for anyone to define or delimit for me. My feminism is inextricably linked to the idea of achieving my own personal empowerment through liberation from gender constraints, so to walk on eggshells about feminism cos I’m a bloke acts directly against everything feminism means to me. Female feminists can have dark ulterior motivations just like male ones do, that doen’t excuse treating the remaining majority of good… Read more »
You rock son!
Joanna, In response to someone mentioning a men’s conference in Detroit, you said “I personally have no plans to cover this event.” Are there plans for anyone at GMP to cover the conference?
Frank, I live in the Midwest and we’ve had some pretty frosty Fridays .. So I’ll say it, a snow balls chance in hell. Being that GMP is a feminist driven site, using what Joanna’s said, I don’t think they belong there and now that I think about it, I would rather they not be there. It would be a gross injustice to the men that read GMP, for someone from GMP to put a feminist spin on that which is being presented at the conference. I looked at the presenters and I have to tell ya, if I had… Read more »
I agree. If I had the spare cash I’d be there too. Thing is wrt GMP being a feminist site, feminists are terrified of people like Erin Pizzey. I’ve never seen a feminist rebut anything Erin has said with logic. They always resort to some sort of shaming/dismissing/libel when faced with Erin’s logic. They hate her because she tried to help everyone, not just women. Which is sad. I love listening/reading Erin’s work. She is truely a compassionate human being with her finger on the pulse. I don’t think I could show the compassion to the people she has worked… Read more »
I’ll make a short post and hopefully will get a reply. I need clarification. Is feminism the egalitarian movement, where men n women’s issues are both taken with the same level of importance? Or is it a gynocentric movement for women’s issues only? (which is ok too). If it’s gynocentric, will the gynocentric feminists tell the egalitarian feminists to stop inviting men in with the idea that feminism is the egalitarian movement? A HUGE amount of problems are created because there are 2 movements in one it seems. In the gynocentric version men shouldn’t be leaders, but in the egalitarian… Read more »
Archy: I need clarification. Is feminism the egalitarian movement, where men n women’s issues are both taken with the same level of importance? Or is it a gynocentric movement for women’s issues only? (which is ok too). — This is an easy question to answer. Just look what happened to Erin Pizzey and Warren Farrell. Erin Pizzey is the founder of the domestic shelter movement in England. She was (note the past tense) a hero to feminists. Then she found out what statistical research has confirmed about domestic violence: A very significant percentage of the victims are actually men. But… Read more »
Did my big post get deleted??
I think there have been some real, positive developments from this conversation. Joanna is a high profile online player, and writes for various feminist publications as well as serving as executive editor here. What is exciting is that she is frankly stating that in her considered opinion, feminism is not really for men. She believes that men need their own movement to advocate for their own concerns. That’s realy progress – because up until now the party line from feminist thought leaders is that men do NOT need their own movement, and that feminism can be trusted to secure social… Read more »
I don’t need or want a say in feminism. I’m about gender equality, and feminism (like the men’s rights movement) is a mixed bag on this. I’m not an MRA because there’s too much misogyny, but feminism has as much misandry. This doesn’t mean all MRAs or feminists meet this description, nor even most, but any amount is too much for me.
There’s this big gulf, isn’t there, between the feminists who say that feminism is simply about equality, and those who say men can’t take the lead anywhere in the feminist movement. There has to be. No one could be obtuse enough to hold those 2 thoughts in their head at the same time … could they? I know that someone occasionally comes up with some sophistry along the lines of feminism being about “women’s equality”. This isn’t just logically wrong (how can women be equal if men aren’t) it’s also suspiciously reminiscent of “some are more equal than others” It’s… Read more »
Read every single reply I have on this comment thread and it might start to make sense to you.
Nobody is relegating men to a secondary position in life.
Your abundance of patience is remarkable, Joanna. I fear that I have unintentionally aided in an attack on feminism, which was never my aim. I would love to learn more about how men can support the emancipation of women. Please continue your good work, unabated.
Thanks for the great read!
Summary: female feminist argues that men shouldn’t presume to have opinions on women’s issues. On a men’s issues blog of which she is the executive editor. An impressive level of self-awareness, I think we’d all agree.
Thanks for mansplaining!
Oh that’s right, God forbid a man presume to speak on men’s issues!
We don’t want that!
You gotta admit, that two step being danced to avoid the question of “should a woman be the chief editor of a site that’s supposed to be for men?” is pretty impressive.
It’s quite the jig.
Let’s get jiggy with it.
I say the same thing I’ve always said. I’ll back any feminist that truly backs men’s rights. It’s give and take. not take and take and take.
“As an editor and a writer, I believe that the subject of the story should be the one telling the story. It’s pretty simple.”
By that standard, what right do you have to have any opinion on or contribution to the “Good Men Project”?
Fairly certain you don’t qualify as the subject of that story?
Try Libertarianism, which advocates freedom for everyone regardless of race or gender. It also espouses the Zero Aggression Principle, or ZAP which says you do not initiate force against anyone. The only exception to this rule is in direct self defense of yourself or someone else. In a truly equal society, no one would automatically be assumed to be better or more virtuous simply because of how they were born.
I can actually appreciate the fact that she is being direct and honest on what she thinks about feminism and how it should operate. She’s saying upfront that women’s voices should take the lead and I’m fine with that because of one thing….she doesn’t also turn around and say that feminism is the ONLY way to equality or that men MUST align with feminism. I’ve run across a fair amount of feminists who do put those things together to create a double bind where men are expected to join a movement that by name and definition will limit their voice… Read more »
Danny: Is there room for a guy to decide NOT to align with feminism without his choice to not do so being taken in bad faith. IE can a guy decide not to align with feminism without it being assumed that that must mean he is against equality?
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No.
Feminists good. Non-feminists bad.
“No. Feminists good. Non-feminists bad.”
Whether your comment here is facetious or not, can you at least articulate your reasoning behind it?
I think so, Danny. I don’t think all men should be feminists. Or even pro-feminist. I think everyone has the right to decide what to do, as long as they aren’t hurting others. If you don’t want to be a part of it, that’s totally fine.
So why is there so much negative judgement about non-feminist and not pro-feminist men. I prefer equality and the elimination of all culturally assigned gender roles…. instead let everyone pick and choose for themselves……without shaming anyone for their choices. But I am not a feminist…….humanist? maybe.
I’m gonna jump in here, if ya’ll don’t mind. I have a wife and I have a daughter and I believe in equality for them, whatever they chose to do in life. I am not, nor will I ever be a feminist or a supporter of feminism but will wholeheartedly support human rights, which by the way mirrors my wife and daughters views. By supporting the feminist “movement,” what happens is that the supporter then is lumped into supposedly supporting everything that feminism represents and that is where the water gets muddy. I don’t think I could even go so… Read more »
If anything, as a “man,” I lean toward MRM’s simply because it best fits my views regarding the needs of men. Nonetheless I will support any “efforts” given toward specific issues relating to women, as long as those issues don’t negatively impact men/boys. Agreed. I lean that way because of Joanna is describing here. Feminism is centered around women and despite claims the contrary I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is insisting that because I don’t try to align with feminism that must mean I am against equality for not just women but… Read more »
I think that’s an admirable attitude to take.
I’ve been giving you fair amount of flak, perhaps because I project the ideas of others onto your words. You’re actually very clear about things like feminism being for women’s interests only etc. So perhaps I’ve been unfair. Kudos.
im kinda pleased to read this topic, having a discussion on feminist without or with just little or very little hostility is a pleasant surprise. I think because Joanna is being honest and straightforward. Men (or women) dont like bull**** and far to many feminist around the globe, intentionally or unintentionally lie to men when inviting them into the group/movement.
Good im satisfied Kudos.
Danny, my young fellow; considering that some of the aspects of feminist doctrine can be very attractive to an equality-minded man, it is easy to find yourself asking that question. However, the movement overall is loaded down with a lot of baggage that can be very harmful to men if not properly filtered. In the end; you have to find your own answers as a man and a human being (the order of operations is up to you as well). But in regards to the discussions on the GMP; I invite you to research the incidents leading up to Tom… Read more »
So men inside the feminist movement, are servants of feminists? dogs to be trained and to perform *sit* *bark* *run* good boooy, gooood boooooooooy here is the cookie 😉 Just joking, men are auxiliaries, who gives support when needed, ok fair enough. But women inside the mens movement do or should have the same *subordinate* status or? ok this isnt about other movements but you get my point. Its not hard to see why there is so much hostility toward feminists, first they invite men inside the movement, and then they insult them or treat them like dirth. I think… Read more »
I can’t speak for the men’s movement, or about it. But I can say that when I try to be of help to Chris Anderson or other folks who work with male survivors, I try to do nothing but help. I would never give an opinion about the movement or how to help (unless I was directly asked). It’s not my place. I always just say, “How can I help?”
actually thats how I always have tough it should be. Not we are all feminists or this is how a feminist look like etc. Feminism is for women, men need their own movement. Then we can cooperate.
If the author of any particular article on the GMP wants to make a case for how and why men should be better feminists and feminist allies, then they are entitled to make it. Though here, the author is the Executive Editor of the GMP and is implying that the GMP itself is, or by its raison d’etre must therefore be, “pro-feminist.” In that case then, I think the actual meaning of the criteria for ‘pro-feminist’ and the validity of such criteria itself both need to be explored, in context. To suggest that the only way the GMP can be “committed… Read more »
I’m going to say this one time, to be clear, and then I’m not responding to any more comments about this subject. I’m not saying that men shouldn’t have opinions about life or issues that affect men (i.e. abuse survivors, fatherhood, pretty much anything else). Men deserve opinions and the right to speak and lead movements that affect their lives. What I’m talking about is JUST feminism. Women deserve to be the leaders of OUR movement. Just as I believe any group deserves. Male survivor movements should be led by male survivors. Survivor voices matter most. Native American movements should… Read more »
This brings to mind a post I read on this site week or so ago. The basic poin was five words that will change your life: “Don’t stay where you’re not valued.” Obviously, I extrapolated it to 6 words, but that was the basic point. So, if I am not valued, why would I stay? Seems like an easy call.
-Jut
Exactly! I’ll pass, thank you.
But when guys talk about some of the legitimate problems that affect them in ways they don’t affect women, they’re told “Feminism will solve this too!” So now it’s kind of a trap: men’s issues will ALSO be solved by feminism, but we’re supposed to not do anything active to help solve them within the umbrella of feminism to actually do that. So we just…wait until y’all get around to it? Take a number? If Feminism is only focused on women’s issues, a stance that makes perfect sense, then what you wrote makes no small amount of sense as well.… Read more »
I addressed this in my last comment. I don’t think feminists should try to extend feminism to solve all issues, for any gender. I think we need separate movements for LGBTQ folks, trans folks separately women of color separately, maybe trans women of color, male survivors, fatherhood advocates, about a billion different things. But I think we can all work together for a movement toward equality, and I think the subsets of feminism can and should be integrated into mainstream feminism (i.e. trans women and women of color) so that we all have a voice. But no, feminism isn’t and… Read more »
(You may want to talk to some other folks in feminism, there’s a fair bit who’d disagree with your point. I’m not one of them, I think you need to keep focused.) Okay, so now, and I’m not being facetious here: Given how the well of men advocating for their needs has been thoroughly, and nigh-completely poisoned both by men’s rights advocates (who are as adept at shooting themselves in the foot as any group I’ve ever seen) and rather a lot of feminist groups and sub-groups, how do you even go about it? Right now, thanks to both sides… Read more »
“At this point, I think men are really screwed and are almost better off just putting up with their problems and accepting that no one really gives a fuck about those issues, or has any interest whatsoever in solving them. Because from what I can tell, there’s literally no point, or ability to even bring them up for discussion without being branded as the modern-day devil.” This is EXACTLY where I’m at. Exactly. There seems to be no way out of this hole. And I know that this article is several days old, but I wanted to also respond to… Read more »
“But no, feminism isn’t and shouldn’t be trying to fix men’s issues. But many issues facing men may (and have been) be helped helped by feminism. -”
I agree wholeheartedly with both pieces of that.
“But many issues facing men may (and have been) be helped by Feminism.”
An example please.
Joanna:
I’ve always admired the intelligence, fairness, and warmth of your posts, but now, I’m going to disagree with this particular post.
To be brief, when one labels a male feminist as an ‘ally,’ you regulate him to the back of the metaphorical bus. Why is he not simply a feminist?
I could go on, but I’m not sure it would make a difference.
Wishing you well,
CM
I think men can be feminists. Many of us just have some scars from men who used that title to exploit and abuse women. Right now, I’m more comfortable with using the term pro-feminist or feminist ally. But Ariel calls himself a feminist, and I don’t think he’s wrong. But “back of the bus” implies, and directly refers to, oppression and institutionalized racism. It’s not exactly a direct comparison for all of the reasons listed in the article. I’m not telling men to be quiet and not have an opinion about LIFE. Just about feminism. Please, have opinions and be… Read more »
“I think men can be feminists. Many of us just have some scars from men who used that title to exploit and abuse women. Right now, I’m more comfortable with using the term pro-feminist or feminist ally.” And I agree with the second part. men can perhaps be feminists, but the odds are long. More often male feminists end up being people like Hugo Schwyzer or that guy a few years earlier who turned out to be a rapist. I think a man who wants to be a feminist should be vetted very, very carefully to make sure he is… Read more »
One day, I took a coffee break while I was at the library writing a paper for a class. I saw two of my classmates at a table and asked if I could join them. Now, in hind sight, i realize that it isn’t usually a good idea to intrude on two women having a chat, but anyhow, on this occasion both said yes. Next thing I know, one of the women tells a very personal, emotional story about a time when she was on a third date with a man and at the end of the date he asked… Read more »
Okay, so this comment pretty much exemplifies everything that’s wrong with the “shut up and listen” philosophy. Generally, yes. You shouldn’t take things personally. You should be generous and compassionate and understand when people are venting and therefore no rebuttals are required, merely sympathy. This is not just good advice for when a woman is venting about men, but in life. But the fact that you felt discomfort is normal. You’ve just been subjected to what could have been (was?) a bigoted screed. The idea that you shouldn’t take it personally – at an emotional level and in the moment… Read more »
You all are very confused.
Nobody is telling men to be quiet about things that affect men. I’m talking about the direction of the feminist movement, and who gets to speak for us. None of it has to do with men’s issues.
It is, literally, not about you.
“But it was never about me. That is my point.” The fact that “it wasn’t about me, is exactly what I said. That was my point, Joanna. I’m sorry if that was unclear. That story was an example of a time when I reacted and behaved the wrong way. By understanding what I did wrong, I believe I have become better able to help others when they need it. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that I will know what to say, or have any advice. I had no advice for her, and that is okay, because what she wanted me… Read more »
Insofar that you mean “men shouldn’t stick their nose into things that are strictly women’s issues” sure. Unfortunately, there are few issues that are strictly women’s issues. Abortion is one example. Beyond that, issues and the way they’re discussed affect both genders. For example, if you constantly describe domestic violence and rape as “violence against women” then you’re contributing to a discourse in which male victims are erased. If you try to improve the lives of victims of sexual assault (a noble goal) by creating campus tribunals that have to power to expel perpetrators, you’ve opened the door to false… Read more »
Men don’t have to be in a secondary position IN LIFE, just in this movement. Just like I should have a secondary (or even tertiary) position in a movement for women of color, or LGBT activism. It’s okay not to be the leader. See, women are ACTUALLY in a secondary position in life in general, and have been for thousands of years in most societies. All we’re asking is a primary position in THIS movement. You can, and should, be willing and gracious in accepting that. BECAUSE IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU. Why is this concept so hard? It’s super, duper… Read more »
If there were lines in the sand about who should take the lead in this movement or on that front I don’t think we’d have a problem. However, as far as I can tell, feminism and only feminism is the one rights movement in which prominent members both simultaneously say that they are working for equality for all people, that people of all walks of life should embrace feminism, and that if you are not a woman then you shouldn’t take the lead. Why is this concept so hard? It’s super, duper easy for me to get that LGBTQ issues… Read more »
I’ve never once heard a native american, nor LGBTQ issues group or person claim they help all peoples issues, or imply they are the egalitarian movement to handle men’s issues. Joanna, it’s super duper easy to understand this problem. MANY FEMINISTS are saying ALL male issues will be fixed under the feminist movement, and that they don’t need a separate movement. By that very definition men deserve 50:50 sharing of leadership since it’s half their movement. What you are advocating for is a gynocentric movement for ONLY women’s issues and maybe helping men without specifically focusing on male issues, which… Read more »
My previous comment was unnecessarily snarky and lacking in compassion. I apologize.
Where was the snark? It’s a valid issue – every move has a cost, and those that bear that cost are de factor stakeholders in the discussion.
I saw two of my classmates at a table and asked if I could join them. Now, in hind sight, i realize that it isn’t usually a good idea to intrude on two women having a chat, but anyhow, on this occasion both said yes. How are you intruding? You asked permission to join them and after they said yes you sat with them. Intruding would be just sitting with them without asking or sitting even if they said no. Next thing I know, one of the women tells a very personal, emotional story about a time when she was… Read more »
@ Richard
He’s a pig because he wanted sex? I thought you were going to write that he forced her to have sex. That would be wrong, but asking for something you want? What did she think he was an ATM? Something to give her what she wanted with no needs or desires of his own? People just need to grow up. If things don’t work out just walk away, no harm no foul.
Speaking as an egalitarian feminist, Joanna, I have to adamantly disagree with your point. You appear to be telling men within the feminist movement to either squelch the impulse to talk about the many gender-related issues that plague men — including the ways in which the women in the movement get it wrong about these issues — and instead to defer to those women and focus primarily on helping solve women’s problems. In other words, men in the feminist movement should embrace the traditionalist values of male stoicism and male chivalry. Sadly, you’re not alone in wanting this, and it… Read more »
No, Ballgame, I don’t mention men’s issues.
I’m talking about feminist issues. We deserve to be in charge of our own movement. We’re capable, and it’s our story and our future. We deserve to be in the driver’s seat.
And, to be clear, I wrote at at the request of Daily Dot, for Daily Dot, and it was reprinted here.
So don’t men deserve the same consideration here?
Here where? Feminism? That’s what this article is about.
I’m not trying to take over anyone else’s movement. This is my movement, my legacy, and it affects me and other woman-identified folks.
I’m not saying a SINGLE thing about any other movement.
“After a few years of tumult in deciding the focus and ethical grounding of our magazine, it became clear to us that being allied in the fight for equality for women was a crucial part of the discussion of what it means to be a good man in the 21st Century” As chief editor were you not a major decision maker in this? Both men’s and women’s issues desperately need non-ingroup viewpoints. If that should not apply to feminism, why should it apply here at GMP? Constructive criticism should never be considered verboten just because of the sex/gender of the… Read more »
“Here where?” And that is the very definition of playing coy. You KNOW where you are commenting: A website that is purporting to address men’s issues. You KNOW that this article was reposted here, on a website that addresses MEN’S ISSUES. And you SHOULD HAVE KNOWN the kinds of responses it was likely to draw. (Really, TL;DR version: “Men should not interject into the women’s movement, but let me, a woman, just put my two cents in on your men’s movement.”) Don’t demean our intelligence. How would you respond to an article reposted from GMP to Jezebel basically telling women… Read more »
I don’t think she sees this site as a men’s movement, but a site for men. I would guess it’s ok for a man to have input on a site for women’s issues if it isn’t specifically a feminist site? I don’t mind women being on this site as long as they don’t generalize negatively against us, or try say how we think. I think Joanna has done a good job here so far, even if some feathers are ruffled. I think the diff between GMP and Jezebel is Jez is a feminist site, this isn’t an MRM site but… Read more »
You are aware, Joanna, that the suffragettes wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without the help of their male allies? If they had said, like you do now, that men should stay out of women’s issues, nothing would have been resolved and nothing would have changed. And while we’re on the subject, aren’t you the executive director of something called the Good Men Project? If women’s issues are to be kept to the women only, why on earth are you, a woman, instructing men how to do things? Isn’t that something that should be up to men to decide? Or are you… Read more »
I think the best advice is “Do not let your male voice drown out the female voices.”. I know that my voice has a VERY commanding presence, I am 6’6, 300lbs+, fairly deep and quite loud voice, I can throw that voice and put fear into people should I ever choose it but also inspire people if I choose it. Women tend to be more soft spoken both by socialization and physical differences in vocal cords, you can see in highschool for instance male teachers tend to command more respect by voice alone. The way the genders are generally raised… Read more »
@ Joanna What Ballgame is saying and I agree that it’s a very good question is if feminism is ONLY about equality for women (which many people suspect that it is) then you are correct. Women need to lead the movement. If however, feminism is supposed to be about addressing everyone’s issues including men’s, then male voices need to be prominent when concerning these issues. How can you say that women should lead when concerning women’s issues AND women should lead when concerns men’s issues? Either feminism isn’t concerned about men’s issues, feminists don’t believe men have any issues, or… Read more »
No need to wonder. Feminism is about women and women’s issues. It is not about men and men’s issues. Don’t believe anyone who tells you otherwise. Erin Pizzey was the founder of the domestic violence shelter movement in England. Initially, all the shelters were for battered women. But she realized that domestic violence was a significant problem for men, too – and began to speak out about it. Once she did, she incurred the wrath of feminists. As she puts it, it was a matter of money as much as anything. Funding would have been diverted from shelters for women… Read more »
I think men need their own advocates for male survivorship, whether it’s sexual violence or domestic violence, and I hope women feminists are standing up and saying, “How can I help?” which is what I, myself, try to do.
I don’t think feminism is really for men, it’s for equality, primarily focused upon issues that face women.
I do, however, think that feminism does a lot of good for men, but no, it’s not FOR men. I would challenge any feminists who claimed that to me.
I’m glad you think that men need their own advocates for issues facing men and boys. In fact, that’s exactly what the Men’s Human Rights Movement is providing. There’s going to be a historic conference in Detroit at the end of June with both male and female speakers who are thought leaders in this movement.
Since this is a site for men, and you are the executive editor, and you say that you want to help, I’m expecting you are going to be providing us some journalistic coverage and insightful analysis. Erin Pizzey will be one of the featured speakers.
I personally have no plans to cover this event.
“I don’t think feminism is really for men, it’s for equality, primarily focused upon issues that face women.”
(Bolded mine.)
I’m sorry, what?
“I don’t think feminism is really for men, it’s for equality …
…
Wow.
@Pitch, read the full context “it’s for equality, primarily focused upon issues that face women.” Imagine a building, 2 teams are building it, 1 for each side. The X side slumps down a bit so team X (feminists) work on that side. When side Y slumps down, team Y (MRM) works on that side. Both are working on the building (equality). You can also imagine there are plumbers, electricians, etc, (eg LGBT rights, racial issues such as african american racial issues, trans issues, etc). Everyone works on that building but specializes in their trades. Team X and Y may help… Read more »
Ms. Schroeder…yet, as the executive editor of this webpage; you chose to reprint an article you wrote about feminism on a page that deals with male issues. I get it; you apparently are writing this article to male readers who happen to also be feminist allies (also a valid stance for men so aligned to take). But as you are an editor of this page, the question left here is how many “male feminist allies” are here and reading this article? Who are you really speaking to with this article? Are you speaking to them or are you speaking to… Read more »
Yes. But that leaves me with a question: Where (if anywhere) do you think that I should get a say about gender-issues that are primarily about men ?
You are saying that in feminism, I shouldn’t.
So where ? Do you actually recommend that men should join a MRA site if they want to ever be allowed to have an actual opinion on gender ?
“Speaking as an egalitarian feminist, Joanna” – But you’re not an egalitarian or a feminist, Ballgame. You’re a passionate anti-feminist who, like Christina Hoff Sommers, finds it useful to falsely identify yourself as a feminist in order to claim false credibility for your anti-feminist ideology and your anti-feminist website. How good could your beliefs or ideology possibly be when you constantly feel the need to hide them under a false “feminist” flag? I do think there’s a place for men within feminism – but there’s no place for anti-feminists within feminism, whether it’s you or Christina Hoff Sommers. I don’t… Read more »
I’m sorry to see you perpetuate the insulting lie that I’m anti-feminist, Amp. I’m in favor of liberation from traditional gender roles. I’m opposed to gender discrimination. I’m in favor of gay marriage and treating people of all genders and sexual persuasions with respect and fairness. I’m pro-choice. And I’ve held all these positions for decades. This apparently is insufficient to qualify me as a feminist in your eyes. No, I’m disqualified because I critique feminists … not the egalitarian ideology underlying feminism at its best, which I agree with, but the latent (and sometimes not-so-latent) misandry of some of… Read more »
Give it up, ballgame. We know you are not a Scotsman, either.
-Jut
“I’m sorry to see you perpetuate the insulting lie that I’m anti-feminist, Amp.”
That’s almost as bad as the implied slander against feminism. If you and Hoff-Summers are anti-feminists, that says something very derogatory about feminism.
“I’m sorry to see you perpetuate the insulting lie that I’m anti-feminist, Amp.” It’s neither a lie nor an insult. It’s an accurate description of the overwhelming majority of your blogging and comments, that I’ve seen. As an anti-feminist, I can see why you’d prefer that your views not be named and criticized for what they are, but it’s not my obligation to assist you in that desire. The term “anti-feminist” is no more an insult than “libertarian” or “conservative” is an insult. It just describes a particular constellation of political views; in your case, it accurately describes someone who… Read more »
The term “anti-feminist” is no more an insult than “libertarian” or “conservative” is an insult. Except of course that “libertarian” or “conservative” could very well be insulting to people who aren’t libertarian or conservative. More on point, calling a liberal “anti-liberal” is certainly an insult. Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining, Amp. in your case, it accurately describes someone who strongly dislikes mainstream feminism, devotes most of his (or her) energy regarding feminism to attacking and opposing mainstream feminism, and whose political position towards virtually all forms of feminism can be accurately summed up as “opposition.”… Read more »
I like you. I think your blog just gained a new reader. 🙂
But you’re not an egalitarian or a feminist, Ballgame. You’re a passionate anti-feminist who, like Christina Hoff Sommers, finds it useful to falsely identify yourself as a feminist in order to claim false credibility for your anti-feminist ideology and your anti-feminist website.
How good could your beliefs or ideology possibly be when you constantly feel the need to hide them under a false “feminist” flag?
So what exactly makes ballgame an antifeminist? You linked to a blog that he works on but just to the main blog itself. Is there a particular post that would support your claim?
But you’re not an egalitarian or a feminist, Ballgame. You’re a passionate anti-feminist who, like Christina Hoff Sommers, finds it useful to falsely identify yourself as a feminist in order to claim false credibility for your anti-feminist ideology and your anti-feminist website. Ballgame’s response indicates that he identifies as feminist because he holds a number of progressive and egalitarian views and he feels that these views justify the label. You can disagree with him about whether the justification is sufficient, but you can’t reasonably dispute his purpose in so identifying. You’re also aware of my view on the matter, which… Read more »
The female editor of what purport’s to be a site for men’s issues writing an article that tells men that when it comes to women’s issues they need to shut up and listen.
There’s really nothing more I can add than that.