Open Discussion:
In light of the closing of storefront Marijuana dispensaries in Los Angeles, a bigger question begs to be asked: Should marijuana be totally legal, remain a prescription, or banned completely?
How about other drugs? Where do you draw the line with what should be banned and what should not?
What, in your opinion, is the main factor keeping some drugs illegal, while other potent and highly addictive drugs such as Oxycontin make their way into the prescription drug market?
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I’m excited to see where this goes. My answer, for the most part: Yes, if we’re talking exclusively about marijuana–but with some regulations. I don’t think it should be illegal to use it or possess it, but I think there needs to be some kind of permit required to sell it. I’m open to needing prescriptions to buy it, and that’s obviously going to cause illegal drug trade–but what’s new. If it wouldn’t be illegal to possess it then it wouldn’t matter. But then there’s the question of proving that you have a prescription when caught with it…don’t know how I feel about that either.
If we can consume alcohol (legally, in moderation), then why not weed?
In my opinion it doesn’t matter because people who will do it will do it anyway.
We have a culture and society that supports it regardless of what the law says. Laws if they do suppress will just drive it underground. Any laws that promote it just promote more problems. A society that worships hedonism is one that does drugs (not talking medicine here) for immediate gratification.
It helps when society collapse around you.
The momentum cannot be stopped. People demand their drugs. And, they claim it has no effects on their daily function. Even the ones that are legalized now, cause bad effects. But, in an individual permissive society that worships the vain, it is ok. The number of those who don’t do drugs dwindle to a finite portion of democratic society. The healthy, the strong, the fit. So at this point it doesn’t matter for marijuana, a drug that induces sloth, when more detrimental ones are legalized.
Conservatives do not really know why they stand for what they do. “It is our values and tradition” they claim. In all of their ill attempts due to primary liberal mindset of changing policies and laws over changing the essence of people, have made them hated. Changing laws have a very mild effect that attempts to goad people, or cows, into doing what society wants. It not as intrinsic as changing culture or better essence.
Even in an age of so called “Knowledge” where the ill effects of smoking (and other drugs) are supposed to be known, they are ignored. For being cool is an act for those who lack esteem or those who just get peer pressured due to their submission to the herd, smoking is the act of fitting in. And as the addiction sinks in, those who thought themselves as free realize they never were or continue to believe they are free as they have to go to 7-eleven to buy another pack.
So people will drink. People will smoke. People will do crack. At least the “conservatives” take mild responsibility unlike the liberal drug abusers expect those who are healthy and fit to support them with socialized medicine–a system that requires more responsibility from a people who have none.
Being healthy is not a virtue anymore.
Then again, being healthy was never a virtue in early America either.
America, Liberal in its emancipation, will die as one.
Just a quick interjection here. Let’s not generalize what “conservatives” think. I’m a conservative and have very strong opinion based upon more then “It’s our values and traditions.” But even at that, the values and traditions have substance. So, let’s not generalize and group oif people .. okay?
The world is full of generalities. I, unfortunately, have neither the time nor the space to fill out every exception on the planet (or person who thinks they are an exception, etc).
The point of generalities is too make a general statement about the world–what you see as the norm. It is to condense a very complex world and proceed from there.
Otherwise we [ I ] would be writing endlessly.
Agreed.* It all comes down to your statement: “So people will drink. People will smoke. People will do crack.” If people want it bad enough, they’ll get it.
*for the most part
Except what happens when society starts to fail?
What happens when more people then not live an unhealthy lifestyle?
Worst still what happens when those unhealthy become the overwhelming majority and expect “society” (aka those who are fit and healthy) to take care of them? What happens when the healthy become non existent? Do you believe a drugged out society can function?
Nothing bothers me more then a socialist who smokes, later gets throat cancer, and wants system that pays for his mistakes…because he believes we are equal special snowflakes.
There are consequences to doing drugs, but people just want to do them, and expect “society” to pick up the mess.
So they drink until they become alcoholics. They smoke until they get macular degeneration. And the snort crack until they get tuberculosis.
And then, they march around about how socialized medicine is going to make society “progress.”
Not that conservatives are any better believing in individual healthcare choice for simple sake of freedom. At least the conservative smoker dies on his own without society being dragged along with him.
The crazy thing about healthcare, is that it should be about health. Crazy concept.
Health is internal. Rather then about the system, which is external.
I think there is just something about human beings that enjoys escaping from the stresses of reality, whether it be through drugs, the imagination, media (books/movies/video games/internet), etc. I don’t know a single person who doesn’t escape reality at least every once in awhile. So what difference does it make what my method of release is from anyone else’, so long as no harm is coming to anyone other than myself?
I’m talking about getting high/drunk here, and neglecting to comment on other drugs like nicotine and caffeine, because they don’t seem less like recreational drugs than others, though I’m sure a cig or coffee break may be an escape for some people too.
*they DO seem less like recreational drugs
Well this certain parts of reality, as in this society, can be painful.
But, I find reality itself quite enjoyable. In that, I find be able to soak up the sun quite nice. I find the air in my hair to be refreshing. Swimming in the pool feeling the water against my body. Smelling roses. Being in the tall grass. Listening to waves crash. Speaking to cute girls. And, climbing the mountains.
I don’t find getting stoned, rotting on a couch, getting the munchies to horde, to be that great (nor productive).
Marijuana induces sloth, which is why I don’t do it anymore.
My escape doesn’t seclude me from reality, but enlivens me to it.
I draw the line at who’s being harmed. If it’s nobody but yourself, it should be legal (provided you’re a consenting adult of sound mind).
Ergo, marijuana should be legal; tobacco should be outlawed (secondhand smoke). You can poison yourself all you want, but you have no right to spread it to others.
Marijuana can result in second hand smoke…
True, but it does no damage to the body. No harm, no foul.
Actually, it does. Marijuana smoke has more tar than tobacco smoke.
That depends on how it’s grown. A three week final flush cuts carcinogens by an incredible amount and makes it darn near harmless. The problem with that is that it also cuts into profit margins quite a bit, because the last two weeks of a plant’s growth cycle is when it puts on generally about 25% of it’s weight. It’s when the buds “fill in.”
Since most of what’s sold on the street is commercially grown, it’s not flushed properly. However stuff grown yourself or grown by a health conscious organics only nutter isn’t nearly as bad for you.
Yes. Regulated and taxed. And while we’re at it, OSHA and health care for sex workers and drug dealers. Make our society safer and kinder through harm reduction.
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Some of you know me, so I’m sure you know where I stand on this. So I hesitate going any further reading the responses as well as responding myself. All I can say is that there is a lot of misinformation that many will base their opinions upon so I will gracefully bow out of this thread which is sad simply because people have to be educated … strike that, they NEED to be educated. Having been in the addiction recovery industry for many years I’m comfortable with my view being accurate. I’ve been and continue to be in the trenches, so to speak. Yet many who will be commenting have not accordingly I can only see my getting my dander up.
All I will say is that recovery and the process for recovery is far different then what people once thought it to be. Addictions are far more complex today then it was years ago where typical addictions dealt with alcoholics. Some of my guys (adolescent males) speak at area schools. High schools, middle schools and now GRADE schools K-6th grade! I know we’re not talking about legalization for children but the reality is many addictions start at an early age.
More important then the addiction itself? Is how and why people use. What’s going on in their lived that they need an illegal chemical so as to happily function in life.
In so far as California wanting to legalize it? If there was NO TAX incentive, there would be no interest what so ever. Follow the money, and screw the people. Oh wait, did they mention that a % of the taxes will be set aside to treat addictions? How very nice of them! So they even admit that it’s addictive … wow.
I think anyone who argues that marijuana ISN’T addictive just hasn’t smoked enough, personally, but depending on the model of addiction you use (medical, behavioral, social, etc) it’s debatable how addictive it is in relation to other substances or activities. Considering the “Marijuana program” was widely recommended as an alternative maintenance program in the early days of Alcoholics Anonymous, it’s probably safe to say that if it’s not “addictive” in and of itself, it certainly acts as a substitute for other addictions.
As for targeting adolescents and children, however, what is your professional opinion regarding whether the “panache” would wear off if it were legal for consenting adults? And how do you think government control over supply would affect access and availability for most people in that target group? I believe the statistics regarding the history of alcohol and narcotics abuse are relevant here, but I’d like to hear your opinion.
@Andrew. It wouldn’t wear off at all, it would simply make it more accessible. Just as alcohol, there will always be ways to obtain the drug. Kids aren’t using because it’s cool, they’re using because they like feeling good. Something I haven’t seen mentioned is how mj leads to other drugs. It’s more then a physical addiction where the body feels that it needs the drug, it’s an addiction where the mind is looking for that feeling good again.
I use the example of roller coasters. When an amusement park introduces a new coaster there are droves of people lined up to ride. After the first ride, you go again and again and again. Often times changing which seat you sit in. What your mind is doing is looking for is that first thrill again. But it’s not there. You will never get the exact same rush you got the first time. People will never ever get that “first high” ever again but the mind is looking for it. Eventually, after increasing the usage, a person will “try” another drug. At times, depending on the drug, people may freak out and stay away but there are many others who will get that new feeling and go with it and the cycle starts again.
Every person that I’ve worked with that has gone on to use other drugs say that when they started smoking pot, they thought they would never try anything else. The other common thought? They could stop any time.
The majority of the kids on my unit are court mandated into treatment because they were on probation for some criminal offense. They failed their drug test so accordingly violated their probation and fortunately have judges who care and place them into residential treatment. Because most treatment programs deal in behaviors as well as they typical CD education, judges use treatment centers to support behavioral changes in general. The issue isn’t the “drug use” so to speak but the criminal behavior surrounding the drug use. Also keep in mind that part of the addiction is the criminal behaviors surrounding it.
IMO, the war on drugs is failing simply because most people aren’t supporting it. “aww, it’s just marijuana” “Everyone does it … legalize it!” I personally love the “everyone does it” defense. Fact is everyone doesn’t. When I say “use” I’m referring to regular use.
Yes, there are some (very few) that can and have been able to limit their use but overall, most continue and increase their use.
The “panache” will not go away if it’s legalized. Just as we glamourize drinking in movies and television, they’ll glamourize drug use which in some cases they already have.
Yesterday I was on my way to the intake office to check in a new client. As I walked past the intake rep for the men’s unit I heard someone say “Hey Tom B” I stopped and looked into the office an there was this gentleman sitting there smiling at me. He asked me if I remembered him. To be honest, I didn’t. He went on to say that he was on my unit when he was 15 …. He’s now 28. The smile left his face when he explained that he was clean for a good 5 years after treatment but then it all went down hill. He “thought” a little mj wouldn’t be a big deal. I guess he was wrong.
Decriminalisation at least. It’s worked great guns in Portugal.
However, Portugal has universal health care and developed an infrastructure to deal with addiction,
Americans tend to not like government programs. My fear is that blanket legalization of all drugs (as in Portugal) will not lead to any more sympathy to addicts but a boom in commercial addiction treatment. The end result will be the same as it is now, with a lot of people getting rich off of others’ misery.
The argument for the legalization of “victimless crimes” including drug use, the sex trade, and polygamy (among others) can be summarized by these 7 points. These were pulled from my “Sociology of Deviance” textbook (cross listed as a Criminal Justice class), “Images of Deviance and Social Control.” You can pick your reason, but this is the generally accepted set of reasons within Sociological and Criminological circles. There are others, but they are based on extrapolations of this list. Being labeled a felon or spending more than 3 years in prison significantly increases the likelihood of reoffending, for instance, which is based on principles 4, 6, and 7.
1. Laws prohibiting consensual deviant exchanges are essentially unenforceable.
2. Laws prohibiting consensual deviant exchanges lead to discriminatory enforcement patterns.
3. Laws prohibiting consensual deviant exchanges encourage deviant behavior on the part of social control agents.
4. Laws prohibiting consensual deviant exchanges may increase secondary deviance.
5. Laws prohibiting consensual deviant exchanges are extremely costly to enforce.
6. Laws prohibiting consensual deviant exchanges support organized crime.
7. Laws prohibiting consensual deviant exchanges damage the public’s respect for law.
From a purely environmental perspective, the production of crystal meth is a disaster. The only way it could be legalized would be to have it heavily regulated, and I think most governments would balk at overseeing the production of such a deadly drug. That’s where I draw the line.
I’ve studied the production processes of crystal meth, and there are 2 reasons it’s an environmental disaster.
The first is that the chemical byproducts for the production of methamphetamine are unique to that specific process. You can’t take the byproducts to a chemical waste facility because they’ll know exactly how you got them. That means the only thing you really can do with them is dump them in your back yard. There are processes you can use on the byproducts to reclaim some of it for future use, but you’ll always end up with waste products that are controlled substances in and of themselves.
The second is that tweakers are the ones making it, and they’re more focused on making the drug than producing it in an environmentally safe way. It’s possible to greatly reduce or eliminate fume emissions, risk of explosions, and environmental damage within the house… IF you know how to properly set up and maintain a pharmaceutical grade laboratory. But do you think tweakers care about all that extra expense and effort? I’m sure they could find the know-how, after all to make it requires a thorough understanding of basic chemistry, but it’s not something that directly affects the product.
As far as social consequences, I don’t really know what to say about meth. There’s such a high rate of correlated secondary deviance (other crimes committed for the sake of getting more meth) that effective risk management strategies would have to be carefully studied and considered before any action were taken and I wouldn’t know where to start.
For more information on this topic (if you’re at all interested), read, “The Construction and Operation of Clandestine Drug Laboratories” by Jack B. Nimble. The techniques described are applicable to the production of almost any synthetic drug, and some of the processes have cross-applications in the production of organic controlled substances as well.
Wow, I feel kinda dirty now.
You know what they say … don’t “assume” because it makes an ass out of u and me. I assumed that there would have been a lot more responses in favor of legalizing marijuana and I’m happy to see that there isn’t. I’m impressed.
That being said I’d like to comment on addictions. Caffeine and nicotine are both physical and emotional addictions. Although withdrawal varies from person to person, people still go through withdrawal. But the hardest part is the emotional. I’ve quit smoking AGAIN and the chemical is long gone from my system but the emotional is always in front of me. My day is loaded with triggers. People places and things that trigger my wanting to have a cigarette. Just sitting here, having my coffee is a trigger because it’s when I would usually light up. Driving to work, after breakfast, lunch and dinner.
If you speak to an active user, he/she will identify people places and things that trigger their use. Most of the kids smoked before school and after school with a select group of friends. Many say that although mj is an emotional addiction the truth is there are chemical withdrawals called PAWS. Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome and can happen for a long time after quitting use.
In so far as mj not being as dangerous as cigarettes, again, do your research. “The Institute of Medicine reports that studies at the levels of cells and molecules provide strong evidence that cannabis smoke is a carcinogen. Marijuana smoke produces 50% more hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke; and hydrocarbons are the chemicals associated with lung cancer, and has been linked to both pre-cancerous growths and to cancer of the lung, head and neck, and testis. Marijuana smoke has been shown to be both mutagenic (causing mutations) and teratogenic (causing birth defects).
Victimless addiction? Speak to the families of mj users and tell me that the user is the only one harmed? Again, the use is one thing but the behavior surrounding the use is another. Gone are the days of a people sitting in some basement getting stones and falling asleep. Gone are the days where the mj plant was growing next to the organic vegetables in the garden. Drugs are a big business. Just as alcohol affects a persons feeling of invincibility, mj does the same. People who use take chances they wouldn’t normally take.
I appreciate what you’ve posted, Tom B. It’s nice to discuss this topic like adults for a change.
I only had one specific complaint about your suggestions – that marijuana use isn’t a victimless crime. You see, several of my friends (though not all) were the sit in the basement with the plants, get stoned and watch TV kinds of guys. A few of us weren’t, myself included, mainly because we were involved in other mostly drug related criminal activity (see secondary deviance, above).
Some of us cashed in on the big business, and our lives got complicated from it. Others chose not to, and very few problems came from consistent use. Their families didn’t complain, they didn’t steal from people, they didn’t smoke in places where they’d get caught, etc.
And I gotta ask, have you smoked much pot personally? Because marijuana enhancing feelings of invincibility sounds SPOT ON for the age group you work with – novice smokers who are already looking for a reason to act out. Affected lots of us the same way in high school (not that we needed excuses to make idiots of ourselves). For adults who really don’t like jail, however, it tends to make me and mine at least more conscious and wary of potential risks. It’s kind of a mark of an experienced stoner.
One last thing that I mentioned earlier. Carcinogen content is directly under the grower’s control. Unfortunately reducing carcinogens cuts into your profit margin considerably, so most commercial growers don’t do it (as in, none do. It frequently cuts profit by over 25%). If you grow your own for primarily personal use like I did or happened to be good friends with someone who does, though, it’s much less damaging to use than cigarettes. If you like I can go scrounging for that study, but I don’t have it readily on hand. Didn’t have much use for my archives of marijuana production research material since I quit growing quite some time ago.
FYI, I don’t smoke pot or do other drugs at all, and I don’t drink regularly… anymore.
@Andrew. I too am enjoying the discussion on this topic like adults.
Back in the day … hippies were the calm group that simply liked chilling out. Many grew out of that stage and moved on. It really wasn’t any big deal in that most grew their own and it didn’t have anything do to with profit. Nonetheless, that generation back then was viewed as somewhat lazy with few real goals other then to have a good time and enjoy life with mother earth. LOL, just writing this brings back some funny, kinda fun times.
BTW, Woodstock can never ever be recreated. It’s funny watching newer generations try to replicate it. Ya had to have lived in the time.
Anyway, I still say that it’s not victimless. Granted that there are stoners who still sit in the basement and leave the rest of the world alone, you have to look beyond the cinder block walls of the basement and look at the entire picture. Where did the pot come from, who sold it and how do people get the money to pay for it? And you have to wonder what’s going on that anyone feels the need to sit around and use illegal drugs? What’s going on … just because they aren’t committing crimes (other then using illegal drugs) we still have to question what’s going on in their lives.
Not too long ago I met with a mother who bought her son his mj. She said that she would rather buy it and have him use at home then run the chance of getting into trouble. Yeah, she was okay with his using, appeared to not be a big deal but in fact she wasn’t being a parent. Society, as liberal as it wants to appear, when the chips are down actually have issues about using. Society is falling short, parents are falling short and accordingly are becoming victims themselves. She had to make a choice as a parent. She could alienate her son and run the chance of his getting into trouble or fall prey to virtual blackmail and get him the pot and keep him safe (if there is such thing).
Thank you for being honest about your past and your experiences surrounding the use of pot. Yeah, there are some that don’t go past the occasional basement use but the truth is that it’s more common to move on. I have to ask you though, was your family affected by your drug use or behaviors surrounding the use?
Victimless? Ask any one of the 38 guys on our residential men’s unit if they are the only ones affected by their use? Ask their families on family visit day if they’re victims?
As a parent of adult kids, do you know how I would feel if I found that either of them were smoking mj? Do you know how I would more then likely sit in my man cave (yes, I have a man cave in my house) and wonder what I did wrong, what’s going on in their life that they need to use illegal drugs? I worry about every one of the 38 guys on my unit when they go on 24 hour passes, my worry would increase 1000 fold if it were my own adult kids that were using. And if my son were fired from his job because he failed a drug test, where would he go to live? My house. Who would try to get him help and do what they could to see that he gets help? Me. Do I need this shit at my age? Hell no! All of a sudden I’ve become a victim of someone who may simply occasionally use in his basement.
I left this out …… oops
I’m glad to hear that no one has said that if mj is so bad, then we should make alcohol illegal. You have no idea how often I’ve heard that. Reality is that it’s a hell of a lot easier to keep something illegal then it is to make it legal and then take it away. (not meant to open a new can of worms)
I go back to the so called “war on drugs” and how it’s not worked. It’s not worked because people didn’t co-sign it. Your example of the basement users is a perfect example. They didn’t contribute to that war but instead endorsed its use by “Their families didn’t complain, they didn’t steal from people, they didn’t smoke in places where they’d get caught, etc.” There is little united front with respect to mj use.
Guys who have a drug history of pills, cocaine and other so called harder drugs have relapsed while it treatment. First thing out of their mouth is justifying mj use in that it wasn’t the other drugs of choice.