A man asks Eli and Josie how to deal with the fact that his girlfriend has had one-night stands and too many partners in the past.
Originally appeared at She Said He Said
Dear Sexes: I have feel very bad about my girlfriend’s past, I dont mind about the 2 boyfriends but I can’t understand the fact that she had a couple of one night stands, she’s had around 10 guys that she told me, and this bothers me a lot, I think it is very disgusting to have sex with someone that you don’t even know. We are from different countries, I’m from Brazil and she is from Denmark, so we are very different, I love her and know that she enjoy our sex, I just feel very disgusting about this, what should I do?
She Said: First, her sex life before the two of you committed to one another is not about you. It has nothing to do with you. Leave her alone about it.
I want to be compassionate toward you about this, because I can hear that you are feeling really bad about it. But it’s hard for me to do that because this seems really controlling. She is her own person, completely separate from you, and I hate the thought that you’re making her feel bad about sex she had before you were even in the picture. Sure you can ask her why she did it, you can try to figure out what was happening in her psychology when she chose to have some one-night stands, but why does it matter if she’s true to you and good to you now that she’s with you?
The only thing that matters is that you both honor your commitments to one another while you’re together. Get the rest out of your mind, or break up with her and move on. You aren’t doing anyone any good wishing her past were different than it is. Then she can find a truly accepting, loving guy and you can find a girl whose past is more to your liking.
He Said: Do you have a magic eraser by chance? If you do, you can erase your girlfriend’s past, along with her one night stands you don’t approve of. If you don’t have such an eraser, you’re going to just have to accept her for who she is NOW. If she’s a good girlfriend to you, isn’t that the most important thing?
If she’s loving, loyal, and committed to you, isn’t that all you can ask for? Everyone has a past. And most everyone has made decisions they’ve regretted, at some point (I’m not saying your girlfriend should regret her past decisions, but it sounds like you regret them for her). Who knows, if your girlfriend knew everything about your past, she might be disappointed by some of YOUR history. If you’re concerned about the amount of men she’s slept with, then that’s a different conversation, but one you certainly can have. And if you’re so disgusted with her past, practice safe sex (we here at She Said He Said advocate sex safe anyhow).
If you’re interested to know WHY your girlfriend made those decisions, it’s certainly your prerogative to discuss it with her. But if she’s good to you, and you love her, I would try to distract yourself from that part of her past, and focus on (current) issues you can actually fix today. And remember, nobody’s perfect!
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About She Said He Said
The real issue in this matter is the incompatibility in the attitudes of both partners. The guy feels probably feels that the girl had mentally separated sex from romantic relationship and doubts whether she would be sexually faithful to him in the future. The girl does not have any problem enjoying sex outside the boundary of romantic relation. It is the bone of contention.
Absolutely. The first step is to recognize the incompatibility and move on.
Now if as a second step we can just get everyone to see that there’s nothing “wrong” with that person that doesn’t hold the same beliefs about sex as you do, perhaps we could make some progress on reducing the amount of judgement we have for one another.
At the same time, I do believe we need, as a third step, to engage in some serious introspection about how we came to hold particular beliefs. We’re all so prone to believing things, both reasonably and unreasonably, and to simply say it’s a heartfelt belief does nothing to help us grow as people. We need to move beyond believing everything we think, and start looking at our cherished beliefs from multiple points of view, and actively challenging them to see if they hold up in the face of critique or wither away.
“Now if as a second step we can just get everyone to see that there’s nothing “wrong” with that person that doesn’t hold the same beliefs about sex as you do, perhaps we could make some progress on reducing the amount of judgement we have for one another.”
He has no problem with the person. It’s her beliefs about sex that he has a problem with.
I think the disgust over her sexual past is what prompted that. It’s one thing to say, “I don’t agree with that.” its quite another to say “Something is wrong with you for that.”
But about this letter writer’s attitude. I wonder if she had 12 boyfriends instead of 2 boyfriends and 10 on night stands would he have found it disgusting. I’m wondering if his problem isn’t the number itself but what that number is a count of. He equate a one night stand with having sex with someone you don’t know. Would it ease his soul if she knew them (ie: they were boyfriends and not one night stands)?
I don’t get it. She had 10 one-night-stands. So what? How on earth can that be a problem?
His options are to 1) grow up, or 2) move on.
“His options are to 1) grow up, or 2) move on.”
I agree with #2. He needs to move on and find someone who doesn’t believe in having sex with random strangers. She needs to move on and find someone who does.
People who don’t believe in having sex with random strangers that are no more immature than those who do.
People who don’t believe in having sex with random strangers that are no more immature than those who do.
Which completely misses the point.
No matter your choice of partner, you are never going to agree on everything. You’re not going to have the same positions on everything. To have a lasting relationship, you must be able to see beyond minor differences. He may look at the 10 one-nights stands and say, “I would never do that”. Fine. He does not have to agree it’s a grand thing. But to be hung up about his gf having done it the way he is – *that* I believe is immature. If differences like that are going to be deal-breakers, there’s going to be a lot of them.
“No matter your choice of partner, you are never going to agree on everything.”
Of course not, and they seem to agree on most things but not this.
“To have a lasting relationship, you must be able to see beyond minor differences.”
They both have to agree what is minor and what is major. She thinks sex with strangers is minor, he thinks it’s major. They have a fundamental difference in their view of morality, which WILL end their relationship eventually.
By the way, many women feel the same way he does. I haven’t seen anyone so harshly criticize them, telling them to grow up, calling them immature, etc.
“He may look at the 10 one-nights stands and say, “I would never do that”. Fine. . .But to be hung up about his gf having done it the way he is – *that* I believe is immature.”
That’s your opinion, and it’s likely her opinion. It’s probably the opinion of many people who feel like she does about sex. But, the view of the writer and many women who agree with him is no more immature than her view.
“If differences like that are going to be deal-breakers, there’s going to be a lot of them.”
Evidently there aren’t a lot of differences. If there were, this wouldn’t be such an issue. He could easily just drop her and move on.
I agree completely with you. This isn’t a question of him not having the ‘right’ values, it’s a matter of their values being fundamentally different. He *shouldn’t* just move on and ignore the past – if they try to sweep this fundamental difference under the rug it’s only going to come back to bite them. What he needs is to think long and hard about weather her attitudes to sex are a dealbreaker for him – and if they are, he needs to break up with her and find someone else before he gets even more attached to her.
For the people who are criticizing this man’s reactions and perceptions . . . When we live in a permissive and open society, we must accept many different opinions and behaviors. However, accepting something does not mean that you have to condone it or that you have to squash down your opinions and impulses about it. If he is uncomfortable about her past behavior, that is perfectly fine. His reaction of disgust is perfectly fine. People can accept things and not agree with them. The goal of a permissive society shouldn’t be that people give up their moral value systems for a homogenized, “everything is cool” value system. The goal should be that we all accept and respect other people’s morals and values.
On a more practical level, it seems that they may be incompatible, but we do not have enough context. Sleeping around is totally fine, but it seems that, to him, it signals a non-chalance about sex and intimacy that makes him uncomfortable. That is fine for him to feel this way. However, her past behavior may not be indicative of her current views/values. If they can openly talk about his views and her past, maybe they can get past this.
Regarding the point about her past not having anything to do with him, that is complete garbage. A person’s past behavior is perfectly fair game for deciding whether to continue a relationship. She had sex with 10 strangers. Would 2 be better? How about 60? At what point would his disgust become acceptable? Her past shows that she can commit to people (she had 2 boyfriends), but having sex with 10 strangers shows that sex and intimacy do not always go together with her. If this is a deal breaker, it is good to know and to move on. For some people, this would be perfectly fine. It is his life and his choice. His judgements are the ones that matter.
” At what point would his disgust become acceptable?”
Never.
I agree with you that if he feels disgusted by her past actions, he should just end the relationship. However, I also think that he is a sad, sad man if he believes that he has any right to judge, or even know of, his girlfriend’s past sexual experience. If he’s worried about STD’s, he can respectfully ask her to take a test, but NOTHING grants him the right to know about the personal relationships she has had with other people in the past. Those relationships are between her and those people; they are not, nor will they ever be, his business. And I think it’s rather farcical for anyone to be passing judgement like, “having sex with 10 strangers shows that sex and intimacy do not always go together for her” when A.) you have no idea how she even defines “intimacy” and B.) you don’t know her side of the story (which, once again I will reiterate, is none of your [or his] business to begin with). If her past sex life is an issue for him, then by all means he should go ahead and end the relationship; but it won’t be because she had sex with 10 other men in her past…it will be because HE is uncomfortable with this fact.
“However, I also think that he is a sad, sad man if he believes that he has any right to judge, or even know of, his girlfriend’s past sexual experience. If he’s worried about STD’s, he can respectfully ask her to take a test, but NOTHING grants him the right to know about the personal relationships she has had with other people in the past. ”
I have to disagree with you wholeheartedly there. People *should* know about the personal histories of the people they let into their lives; this goes far beyond a “did you catch anything” safety measure.
When I ask about someone’s exes I want to know about the relationship itself, not diseases. I want to hear how what drew them in, what the deal-breakers were, how the relationship fell apart. I want to know how these people shaped you, how they affected you emotionally, mentally. What effect the relationships had in your life. These aren’t questions that can be answered by some blood work. STDs are distant second to me when I talk about our pasts with someone.
It doesn’t make him “uncomfortable.” It makes him “disgusted.”
She can’t un-fuck those ten guys so I don’t see what the point is in litigating the past, other than to shame her about her behavior. So what if sex and intimacy don’t always go together for her? The real importance that has is whether she will have sex with other people during their relationship – not whether she had casual sex before their relationship or will have it again after this relationship has run it’s course. If she was cheating on a past boyfriend with those randoms, maybe that’s relevant? But I can’t see how anything else is.
“She can’t un-fuck those ten guys so I don’t see what the point is in litigating the past, other than to shame her about her behavior. So what if sex and intimacy don’t always go together for her? The real importance that has is whether she will have sex with other people during their relationship – not whether she had casual sex before their relationship or will have it again after this relationship has run it’s course. If she was cheating on a past boyfriend with those randoms, maybe that’s relevant? But I can’t see how anything else is.”
Obviously, this is a big deal for him. Speaking openly about his views of her past is not litigation, it is discussing. You can respect someone’s choices and not agree with them. Perhaps she was in a relationship funk and behaved out of the ordinary for a while. Therefore, her past behavior would be somewhat out of character for her. In which case, perhaps they could move on with relationship in an open and loving way.
All of these things are of subjective importance. I can’t decide for this guy what should be a deal breaker, nor can you. Sleeping around isn’t the issue. His disgust isn’t the issue. His “disgust” with her past behavior is the issue in having a good and healthy relationship. He obviously has a moral/value system that makes him feel disgusted with her behavior. That is important. He has all the right in the world to have his views. If they are to move along with their relationship, they should get this sorted out in an open, respectful, and compassionate way. But it may not work out, and that is OK.
“Disgusting” is a judgement. It’s not “speaking openly about his views of her past.” What does he want from her? That she feel ashamed about her past behavior? That she feel as disgusted with herself as he does?
I don’t want to decide what’s a deal-breaker for him. I think if it’s a deal-breaker for him he should move on already. I don’t think he should shame her for her past sexual encounters. She can’t un-fuck those guys, so either he needs to be okay with it or he needs to find someone who shares the same attitudes about casual sex that he does. I’m pretty sure if she shared his attitudes he’d know already, and wouldn’t have written in.
The only shot of this relationship working is if one of them converts to the other’s view of sex/morals.
Either she accepts his view that sex with random strangers is disgusting and she regrets ever doing it, and commits to never doing it again – OR, he accepts her view that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with having sex with strangers.
Either way, if they don’t have a common moral view of sex, their chances of survival long term as a couple are nil
Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.
The more partners a person has the less likely they to remain in a long-term relationship.
So the question is… what is your own hope for a relationship with a person? Are you comfortable with letting a relationship run its course?
That’s some slut-shaming bullshit right there, Hondo. There is absolutely no indication that this woman ever cheated or ended relationships so that she could sleep with other men, so where is your logic in saying, “the more partners a person has the less likely they [are] to remain in a long-term relationship.”? How do you explain sexually open relationships then? How do you explain swingers? Where’s your statistical data to back that statement up? “Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior” my ass; tell me, you drink milk from bottles nowadays? You use sippy cups? You completely deny everyone (including you) the right to “learning from past experience” when you say that shit.
Uh, yeah, there’s a vast difference between cheating and having a lot of sexual partners. And if ten is a lot… well, this guy would surely be disgusted with me. I always hate having the numbers conversation with men I’m thinking of dating, and often won’t, because I’ve found that it makes a lot of men really insecure and/or uncomfortable.
Aside from the fact that I see no reason for anyone to judge another human being for the adult consensual sex that they’re having, I think it’s a little concerning that this man uses words like ‘disgusting’… mainly because my ex had similar views and I’m far more casual about sex and sexuality than he, and he was given to slut shaming (particularly when he was angry).
To him sex is special; something to be shared with someone you deeply care about. He’s bothered by the fact that, to her, having sex with him is nothing special, nothing that she wouldn’t do with a stranger. He cares about her but can’t get over the fact that he’ll never be anymore special than a stranger.
The trouble with that statement is that it is absolutely, unequivocally untrue. I have had a lot of one night stands (because I enjoy them). It doesn’t mean that sex and intimacy with a loving partner is not ‘something special’. In fact, sex is typically a great deal better within a loving relationship because there is intimacy between the two of you. Having one night stands does not at all negate one’s capacity to have a special intimate relationship with a lover. And, frankly, it doesn’t really even make sense to make such a statement.
This is about them, not you. To him sex is a special expression of love. Sex and love are inextricably connected. From his perspective, sex with him can’t be all that special if she’s willing to do the exact same thing strangers.
He hasn’t stated that at all. He’s actually said that he knows she enjoys the sex they have together but that he feels her dalliances prior to meeting him to be ‘disgusting’.
He finds them to be disgusting because to him sex is special intimate act, something to be shared only with someone you love. He’s disgusted because she’ll do it with people “she don’t even know”, let alone love.
They are not well suited and he should perhaps only date people like him, committing to mutual chastity until marriage. She should find a partner that suits her more who share her viewpoints on sexuality. I’m not sure why this is still even being discussed.
True enough. Better now than a costly divorce and the children being shuttled back and forth in a few years.
Well, I can’t imagine living with someone who felt so ashamed of me and something I’d consider normal and natural. And I feels sad for him that he can’t accept that she loves him and wants to be with him because for all he knows, this is the great love.
I feel he’s limiting himself, but I ultimately believe she’ll be better off with a partner that loves her for all of her, including her past.
There is also a lot we don’t know. He’s from Brazil, he’s possibly Catholic, he’s male, it’s possible he’s also been sexual with many women. She’s from Denmark, possibly Atheist or Protestant. Either way, it’s possible he’s from a more traditional culture and her from a more liberal one. He may have been virginal or he may just expect “good” women (the kind you marry) to be less experienced. Either way, I don’t see this working out.
What’s normal and natural? They disagree on what’s normal and natural. To her, sex with people she doesn’t know is normal and natural, to him, it’s not. He’s okay with sex within a relationship. It’s the stranger sex that he has a problem with. If they can’t even agree on that, they’re doomed.
And yet from her’s it might be. That he can’t allow for that possibility is sad. But if he can’t accept it, then he should let her go and find a parter better suited for her.
What I don’t understand is why people see it as simply black and white. It’s not always “all sex is special to me” and “all sex is not special to me.” Often times sex is extremely special, spiritual, and intimate. Sometimes it’s not. With one person it is, and with one it isn’t. In one situation it is, in another it isn’t. Just because it wasn’t special with some guy I hooked up with at college party when I wasn’t ready for a serious relationship or even knew where I’d be living in a year, doesn’t mean it isn’t special with YOU. The important part is that you’re both honest about your intentions early on and safe. Sex can be many different things. Even WITHIN a relationship, it can be many different things. It can be fucking, making love, boring, spiritual, a chore, mind-blowing, surprising, uncomfortable, etc. It happen for many different reasons, ranging from horniness to wanting to make a baby to an expression of love to stress relief. I agree with Jasmine on the other part as well. Sex within a relationship is often better and far more rewarding. I eat dinner with random people all the time. That doesn’t mean that a romantic dinner out with a man I love isn’t a million times more special. I’ve gotten many gifts in my life. That doesn’t mean the ones given to me by the most special people in my life aren’t the most important, worth keeping, and most memorable. Why is this concept so difficult to grasp?
because we are kind of messed up about sex? Amen on this comment.
On a hunch, I would wager that he doesn’t put eating dinner and exchanging gifts on the same level of intimacy as sexual intercourse. To some people it’s not, but it is to him.
My own hunch is that this stems from a place of insecurity and/or ignorance. My having had a number of one nights stands (or even just friends with benefit type situations) does not at all mean that any future relationship I embark upon will be devoid of intimate sex. It doesn’t negate my capacity to be present and for my sexual relations to be special with another person. Some sexual encounters are about the casual desire to be satisfied, others are about the desire to be physically and emotionally intimate with another human being. And there are even some one night stands that are tremendously intimate and ‘special’.
As Julie said, we really are kind of messed up about sex. And it’s a shame.
You’ve identified where he and she differ. I’m not saying that either one is right or wrong. But, unlike her, he doesn’t ever disconnect sex and relationships sex. That’s why he finds casual sexual encounters with strangers in order to satisifed disgusting.
The problem I have with these statements is that unless you are this person, you’re only projecting your own beliefs onto this individual. We cannot know for certain exactly where the disgust lies without asking him himself.
In his own words. . .
“she’s had around 10 guys that she told me, and this bothers me a lot, I think it is very disgusting to have sex with someone that you don’t even know.”
Yes, those are his words. What it doesn’t say is that because of that he feels like sex between the two of them cannot be special. That is making a leap that may not be at all accurate.
Special, as in something only done with someone special. However you frame it, they have a major disconnect because that’s hiw view but not her’s.
Anyone else think it would be interesting to see the comments section if this was a woman saying she found her boyfriend’s past sexual exploits to be disgusting? =D
For what it’s worth, if I found out a guy had had 10 one night stands in the past I would be pretty repulsed and have to seriously consider whether I would be willing to settle in order to be with him. I don’t know if it would be a deal-breaker in the end, but I don’t know that I could be with someone who thinks casual sex is acceptable. I want someone who believes, like me, that it’s wrong.
My Coffee
I am really interested in why you think casual sex is wrong, and I wonder if you differentiate between different types of “one night stands.” Is it only intentional one night stands that you find repulsive, or do you include “first date sex” where the relationship didn’t progress to a second date as unacceptable as well? Does a guy who has had a long term “friends with benefits” relationship also repulse you?
And what do you mean by “settle in order to be with him?”
(aside: for those who deny the transactional nature of relationships, I think words like “settle” are telling)
I think it’s very empty. I find it devoid of the things that make sex such a good and wonderful thing in life – love, for one, but most importantly the celebration of an intense and close relationship with another human being. You can’t celebrate something that hasn’t been built yet. And there’s the trust involved. In sex, you’re at your most vulnerable, physically and emotionally. I really think it’s a bad idea to open yourself up like that to someone you don’t know.
As to intentional vs. accidental one night stands, that’s a very interesting question. I had to stop and think about it, and I think my answer is that it does make a difference. Not as far as what they did, but as far as what it signifies about their values and beliefs. I don’t think sex on the first date is a good idea, because it encounters all the problems I see with one night stands (assuming you’re date is a relative stranger, since most people don’t date from their friend circle), but I do think it matters that it’s predicated on the hope of building a relationship from there. Intentional one night stands, on the other hand, mean that he really believes in doing this thing that I think is a terrible idea. I wouldn’t think he was a bad person for having one night stands, but I would be convinced his values were utterly incompatible with mine.
Friends with benefits, on the other hand, I’m actually pretty okay with. I don’t think it’s ideal – mostly because I’ve seen those arrangements turn into a handy excuse to avoid seeking out an actual relationship – but I think they’re a long, long way from one night stands. It’s sex with someone you know, and trust, and care about, and I have no problem with that. It can invite trouble if one partner gets attached emotionally and the other doesn’t, but at least it’s not inviting strangers into your bed.
As for settling and the transactional nature of relationships, I used ‘settle’ pecisely because relationships are transactional. In my particular case, I want children, like, yesterday, and my single biggest concern is what kind of father he would be. (Well, my single biggest concern is weather he even wants kids, but I’m assuming if he doesn’t we’ve already ruled each other out.) I want someone whose beliefs match mine to a large extent, so that I don’t end up in a tug-of-war over what values to teach our kids down the line. This kind of weighing is highly transactional; I look at what else he has to offer a relationship and children, and I think “is he a good deal?” For my part, I want someone who would make a good dad and would teach our kids values I believe in, and I’m willing to sacrifice earning power and some physcal attractiveness to do it.
Random note: the best book about relationships I ever read, and which completely convinced of the transactional nature of them, is Marry Him: The Case For Settling For Mr. Good Enough. If you’re not convinced choosing a partner is at it’s heart a transaction, read this book.
Thanks for indulging my curiosity, My Coffee. I find it interesting how strongly we hold on to our ideals of what sex should be and furthermore the origins of those ideals. Part of my motivation in participating here comes from having cast aside my own ideals to actively rebuild them as “ideals” rather than cultural prescriptions. I begin by asking myself, “why should sex be ‘celebration of an intense and close relationship with another human being?’ Where do we get this idea that sex is something to be rationed? What even makes our sexual activity a “values” question?” To me being a good person means respecting others as agents of their desires, and being honest in communicating my own intentions and desires. To that end, if we both desire to have a one night stand, where is the harm (morally or otherwise) in acting on that desire with the full knowledge and consent of someone else?
Sex is an infinite resource that has been made artificially scarce by our culture, in the process endowing it with some currency. Women are given the role of sexual gatekeepers, and are to use it to keep a man. By giving it away freely (i.e. without tying it to a future financial commitment) women are devaluing themselves and other women in the sexual marketplace.
I’ve read much of Marry Him (although not all, as it’s quite repetitive) and while it may be descriptive of our cultural norms around marriage, I think the reason the book exists is because those norms are in sharp contrast with our rapidly shifting ideals about relationships and gender roles and we’re struggling to reconcile them. We see this in our struggle with monogamy and with our declining marriage rates. And we continue to see our ideals of “equality” run up against our expectations of our potential partners that remain stubbornly gendered (how many women would marry an unemployed man not independently wealthy?). Tying our sexual expression, let along our romantic entanglements, to this set of market-based exchanges given our expectations of monogamy can’t lead anywhere good (and I think the evidence agrees).
In contrast to Lori Gottlieb’s book, have you seen Blue Valentine? If so, would you consider Dean to have been a “good dad” (distinct from the question of whether he was a “good husband”)?
Are you talking about the double standard?
There are women out there who have an issue with their boyfriends number. But it SEEMS this is less of an issue.
If he is disgusted then he should end the relationship.
There is no need for her to suffer because he cannot let that issue go or compromise on it.
The most hilarious part to me was that he thinks 10 partners is a lot.
I had more than 10 sexual partners before I finished high school.
Most of us women have several one-night stands in our early years. A lot of us didn’t want them to be one-night stands, but they happened simply because it takes some experience to figure out that some guys are really dishonest and will say anything to get us into bed, including implying a level of commitment that’s not there. The only surefire way to avoid getting fooled like this is to be willing to hold out for a couple of months before jumping into bed with any guy. Of course, this isn’t the only reason one-night stands happen, and certainly some women just feel adventurous. The man who’s disgusted by his girlfriend doesn’t state whether she was naive and fooled or desirous of promiscuity. Did he even ask? Does having been young, naive and trusting at some point in our lives make us women disgusting to some men? Are we better off keeping our pasts secret for fear of being shamed about them?
This particular framing is interesting to me, because it suggests—perhaps unintentionally—that the preferred, and possibly only acceptable outlet for sexual expression is within the confines of a relationship (I’m not convinced you’re making this argument). It’s a curious thing this idea of saving sex for a relationship, as if it were a resource in limited supply.
It’s clear that both men and women shame each other – but primarily women – for their sexual behavior. Why she had any number of casual sex partners to me is wholly irrelevant. What interests me more is how she feels about those encounters, and if she isn’t concerned about them then neither am I.
@Jen … a recent article regarding Mitt was about something he did when he was a teen. A lot of people here at GMP were upset with what he did back then, 30 years ago. What you’re saying is that the past is the past .. take age and inexperience into consideration? I guess that works only with what they chose to look at as important?
Tom, there are two implicit judgements you are making in your comparison.
First, you are making a judgement of sex as a negative thing in suggesting that whether activities happened in the past or not is even important.
Second, you are implying that bullying and physically assaulting someone is on par with having consensual sex outside the confines of a committed relationship simply because both acts happened in the past. Simply being “in the past” can not be the standard, and I don’t believe it’s the standard Jen or others are using.
Rather, by “the past” we mean outside of the current relationship. If the subject of the letter had been in a relationship with the advice seeker when she engaged in casual sex, even if it had happened years ago, then her past behavior would be much more germane to her current relationship. Instead, the only thing that is relevant now is whether she shares his view of the specialness of sex (or lack thereof, as we might infer) and if her not sharing that is a deal breaker for him.
Let me make one other point, if I may, about why I’m also focussing on him rather than simply the incompatibility. It is an act of cruelty to stay with someone who disgusts you. To hold one’s nose while consorting with someone you revile is no noble deed. We deserve at a minimum respect and acceptance from our partners, and It is better to be alone than to treat others this way or in like manner be treated. A relationship can not long last when one partner holds the other in contempt, and its dissolution will not come about quietly.
“Let me make one other point, if I may, about why I’m also focussing on him rather than simply the incompatibility. It is an act of cruelty to stay with someone who disgusts you. To hold one’s nose while consorting with someone you revile is no noble deed. We deserve at a minimum respect and acceptance from our partners, and It is better to be alone than to treat others this way or in like manner be treated. A relationship can not long last when one partner holds the other in contempt, and its dissolution will not come about quietly.”
Let me just say I agree with you completely on this. It’s why I think advising him to ignore the past or get over it won’t work – this isn’t a fear that she’s more experienced or something. A belief that what’s she’d done is disgusting is not something that can be swept under the rug, it will just explode later on.
The only way I could see this relationship working is if either a) she, too, believes that what’s she’s done is disgusting, or b) he discusses this with himself long and hard and changes his beliefs. Not just what he says he believes, but the actual beliefs. That’s a lot harder, but not impossible. Barring one of these, I think this relationship is doomed.
Everyone that is shaming him is missing the problem. The problem is NOT the PAST. The problem is the present. The problem right now is that he considers sex an intimate expression of love and outpouring of emotion, whereas she considers it a function that can be shared with a stranger or a partner.
The problem right now is she neither has adopted the other’s view of sex. The problem is that sex is that while sacred expression of love to him, to her it’s just sex. As a result, the sex they share is more special to him than it is to her, but NOT because of her past, because of the incompatible views of sex.
By it’s very nature (because of their respective views of sex), their sexual realtionship is special to him, whereas it’s not to her. THAT is the issue, not that she had one night stands.
People don’t care about sex what they care about is the TRUST between two people. When someone cheats its not that sex, its the break in trust that hurts. Thats why people look at cheating and swinging as different things. Its like telling a lie. My girlfriend had a fling with a guy as like a fuck buddy before we met. I really dont care but what I do care is that she waited several years to tell me. It still bugs me. Though I’ll probably let it slide. My point is things like that define your character. Its like your GPA.
She probably didn’t tell you because she was worried you’d be a judgmental asshole. You have another chance to show her that you’re not an asshole by “letting it slide” and never bringing it up again.
What exactly does my GPA say about anything? There is a difference between failing gym but receiving all As in your other classes, and receiving all Bs, yet they result in the same GPA. The first says I’m an ‘A’ student academically but perhaps not so coordinated. The second says I’m a ‘B’ student academically and athletically. Context matters, just as whether she had sex with those guys BEFORE she met you or AFTER she met you is the more salient point than the number of guys.
What ever happened to people learning past experiences or mistakes? (if she believes they were mistakes). It often takes people a while to learn from experiences. Making a mistake the first time and learning straight away does not always happen. In my case I feel that I have had too many sexual partners from casual hook ups. I do regret not stopping my ‘habit’ sooner. Not everyone will feel the same about their past. There is some merit in ‘past behaviour is the best predictor of the future’ but it is not the ONLY predictor.
i might have the same problem… can someone tell me how I should approach this open discussion everybody keeps talking about. (whether I should accept or whether she agrees with my viewpoint) Also, Im scared that if I break up with her for whatever reason, Ill regret it because I really can’t know a good thing until its gone, and itll be too late. Background: I love her and we’re really great for each other, she’s caring and I am too. But the problem still remains…
Why is it a problem? Who is it a problem for? Just you? Determine that, the reasons you consider it a problem (the beliefs behind it, and values) and then maybe that will provide more clarity. It sounds like you love her very much and that you have a good relationship that you don’t want to lose. So why is her partner count a problem?
its a problem because
1. 10 other guys have been there, done that ( seen my gf naked, penetrated my gf ), theres a lack of accomplishment, for example, oh Ive been dating you for 3 months and I finally feel like I can give you all of me
2. It makes it seem like shes easy, which makes it seem like theres no real way she can be soooo into me when shes been into 10 guys enough to let them in.
3. It makes it seem like ” ohhh Ive had my fun now its time to find a good guy who will care about me and treat me well” Im sorry please if this is offensive im super sorry and apologize in advance. I mean, it might not even make sense.
4. I kinda wanted to share it with someone who would also be sharing the experience with me
pleasseeeeee tell me what my problem is
1. Why the need for a sense of accomplishment (in that sense at least)? Yes while it is true that other guys have seen her naked and have had sex with her the part that matters is that (assuming this an exclusive relationship between the two of you and she is not cheating on you) right now you are the one that is seeing her naked and you are the one that is having sex with her. That lack of accomplishment may be some unconsious desire to hold her sexual past against her. That’s not cool at all.
2. Bear in mind that just like most people she is trying to make her way through the world of relationships and dating and sex. There are a lot of people out there that have had sex with people that they didn’t “live happily every after” with. Don’t take those past 10 guys as a sign she is easy, perhaps take them as a sign that she just hasn’t found what she is looking for yet.
Flip if around for a moment if you will. I don’t know your history in dating/relationships/sex but if you have had many partners in the past would it be right for your current girlfriend to wonder if those past partners meant you were easy? Or if you have only had a few (or none) how would you feel if she were to hold that against you in the form of having a problem with a guy that doesn’t have much experience or not wanting to waste time on a fresh guy or something like that? (I’ve met women that have actively said they don’t want to waste time on an inexperienced guy because in the bedroom, and i quote, “He should already know what to do, I shouldn’t have to tell him”.)
3. No it makes sense. I think it makes sense to think that being with a person who has had a lot of partners in their past means being with a person that is trying to have their fun for as long as they can and then find one to settle down with. But as I said in response to your point two it doesn’t necessarily mean that she is just about looking to have fun. She could be looking for a guy to go long term with but she hasn’t found him yet. Who knows she might be thinking that you are the one she wants to go long term with. Please don’t let your fears based on her past mess that up for you.
4. This is understandable as well. I’ll admit that I was kinda of the same way but to me I concluded this was ultimately limiting my possiblities of finding something to connect with. It’s understandable to want to find someone who is in a similar position as yourself so that the two of you can “embark on a journey” so to speak. Wanting to be with someone that would be sharing the experience with you is no more inherently wrong than a Christian wanting to find a Christian or something like that.
But with that said please don’t let your preference for finding someone in a similar state as yourself cloud your vision and prevent you from missing out something that could be great.
Hey Danny,
I have no idea who you are. You have no idea who I am but I owe it to you to thank you kindly. I want you to know that your perspective to my problem has enlightened me to see my relationship very differently. Please know that a truly beautiful relationship has been saved partly from what you’ve taken the time to write here today. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to answer my problem. Thank you
No problem.
We are all just trying to make our way through this world. Two other things.
1. Something else I wanted to warn you against was the idea that as a man it is somehow your duty to give an inexperienced woman some sort of first time mind blowing experience and failure to do so means you are less of a man. There are a lot of unrealistic expectactions heaped on women when it comes to sex and I think it’s worth mentioning that while those expectations must be challenged and done away with there are also unrealistic expectations that are heaped on men that must be done away with as well.
I bring this up in case you were thinking something to the effect of thinking that it is your job to guide her through the world of sex.
2. Take Julie up on her offer. She is quite able to help people in an indirect manner (I can personally testify to this) so I wager that if she were to actually focus on someone with the direct intent of helping them, it will do wonders.
She already offers the insight that you seem to be trying to reconcile what you want in a relationship with what you think you are supposed to want in a relationship as a man. That “what you think you are supposed to want” is coming from an old and heavily gendered way that relationships were forged in. Those ways are changing as people are now speaking up about what they want and allowing themselves to feel what they want instead of just abiding by the old ways.
Thing is the old ways did work to an extent and when compared to the uncertainty of the way things are changing now there is an understandable desire to just go with the old ways based on a fear of the uncertainty of not finding a fitting relationship by taking a chance of going for what you want and going for what you feel (or at least taking your feelings into account).
Feel free to email me at julie@goodmenproject.com. This is too long of a conversation to have here. For now, I’m a fan of this article on different models of looking at sex. There can be competitive models, as you are looking at it now (being first, “proof” of some kind of special things) and then there are more collaborative models.
http://ducttapedance.wordpress.com/2011/05/01/toward-a-performance-model-of-sex-by-thomas-macaulay-millar/.
This is about you and your framing of how sex is supposed to work and the cognitive dissonance you are feeling because you truly care for someone deeply who isn’t meeting your pre conceived narrative of “how things should be.” the answer is, in short, can you let go of that original model to let a relationship blossom into something new and original with you and she at the center, or will you hold this old model over her head and allow it, not you and her, to direct how you have a relationship.
I’ve got lots of things to add but would be more comfortable in a dialogue offline.
I know a lot of people who had 10-20 partners prior to marriage and then have had 20 year long marriages with lots of joy, pleasure and fun. The last partner was the last partner.
its not sacred
“1. 10 other guys have been there, done that ( seen my gf naked, penetrated my gf ), theres a lack of accomplishment, for example, oh Ive been dating you for 3 months and I finally feel like I can give you all of me”
What is there to accomplish? I think you see sex as sacred between lovers but only one partner in their sex life, or very few. The only real concern should be STI’s, for which you can both be tested for but even people with only 1 partner get STI’s.
“2. It makes it seem like shes easy, which makes it seem like theres no real way she can be soooo into me when shes been into 10 guys enough to let them in.”
How old is she? If she’s 30, it could be 1 partner per year, not exactly a lot. If she’s 17 and had 10 guys you may feel differently. What is it about sex that taints her? Furthermore, what is she like NOW as a person, is she a great woman? Is it really worth throwing away this relationship because 10 other guys had sex with her?
“3. It makes it seem like ” ohhh Ive had my fun now its time to find a good guy who will care about me and treat me well” Im sorry please if this is offensive im super sorry and apologize in advance. I mean, it might not even make sense.”
Did she have sex with 10 guys in a short period of time, or was it just randomly spread out? You’re also shooting yourself in the foot here, who says it isn’t special with you?
“4. I kinda wanted to share it with someone who would also be sharing the experience with me”
Were you a virgin? I was a virgin, I slept with a virgin, it was awkward as hell and not like super duper mindblowingly special. It would have been special still if she had 5 or 10 partners, and the sex probably would have been better since only one of us would be inexperienced vs both.
It’s not like her vagina is now flogged out and destroyed is it? She’s not used goods, she’s just a human who had human experiences. Why can’t it be that she has found this wonderful guy she truly is into, you’ll both fall in love, and have kids n live happily ever after? Sex is still going to be special because it’s shared between you both, the previous partner count doesn’t make it less special, the only thing it really does is introduce risk of STI’s but that risk can still happen with 1 partner.
Get tested, put your mind at ease, and enjoy your relationship. MAKE your relationship sacred.
Well freaking said, Archy. Brilliant. Right on the money.
Thank-you
I use to have an issue with it myself till I realized it doesn’t change the person, only thing I check for is STI’s and I’d do that if they had more than zero partners anyway.
I am in a similar position as the guy who wrote the letter. I am thinking of just letting go and moving on. I do not think it gets better. We all have preconceived notions of what we are looking for. My views are not better than or worse than others, they are simply mine and I do not want to be with a woman that believes sex is a sport. If she made mistakes in her past, that is one thing, but if she believes what she did was OK, then she does not have views similar to mine on this issue, and this is a big issue for me. To me, a woman who has had one night stands is not promiscuous but one who believes this is acceptable and sees this as fine, she is promiscuous. And a woman with a formed habit of promiscuity to me is the definition of a slut. And this is not what I want for myself. This is something I would never express in general because I think I would make some women feel bad and it is not my intent to hurt anyone — it is my intent to find what I am looking for, however.
I have many female friends who are promiscuous and I have no problem with that. I can be friends with people of very differing beliefs, but for something more serious on this matter, no thanks.
I am certain others will disparage my own viewpoint. To them I say: why is my viewpoint not OK for me to personally have, provided I do not externalize it to any women that may feel bad about it? Why do I have to conform to your set of beliefs? You marry a promiscuous woman if you want, but why do you want me to do it? To each his own.
Seriously? “why is my viewpoint not OK for me to personally have, provided I do not externalize it to any women that may feel bad about it?”
You just said women who enjoy consensual sex, as much consensual, non-committal sex that they want are sluts. That’s why your viewpoint is not okay.
It’s okay to say “I do not wish to be with a woman who views sexual encounters differently than I do.” That’s fine. Nobody is going to bemoan you that. It’s good to be with people with similar values and belief systems. It makes relationships easier when we have similar views. It is not, however, okay, to say that someone who has different viewpoints from you is a ‘slut’. I love one night stands. I have them as often as I please. This does not make me a slut. It makes me someone who has different views on sex than you do. And how dare you make value statements about my choices?
Otherwise, I’d agree with you – if you’re really that judgmental of your significant other because she’s treated sex casually or has been promiscuous, then perhaps it’s better for you to be with someone whose values align more closely with your own. That’s your call. And perhaps she’d be better off with someone who values her judgments about what to do with her own body. I know I wouldn’t waste a minute of my time on someone who doesn’t appreciate my sexual agency.
Yeah, but I’d bet they’d have a problem with you if they knew you were calling them sluts. How noble of you to hide your disparaging opinions of them to protect them from feeling bad.
Because not all opinions are created equal. No one is forcing you to conform, but instead calling you out on your misguided thinking. When a viewpoint is laced with misogyny I think it not only fair to call it out, but that it is our duty to challenge it at every turn.
And really, reread what you wrote there. If I had asked why it’s not okay for me to think blacks were inferior and better off as slaves, but I don’t “externalize” it to any negroes that “may feel bad about it” you’d really be okay with that?
I think you should tell your slutty friends how you truly feel about them.
I have more respect for a man who lets me know where he stands, even if he’s wrong, than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. – Malcolm X
She called me and came over and we spoke. I spoke about our differences in values, no set of beliefs better than the other, just different etc…reading this page helped me with word choice. I really did not want to hurt her. She insisted that her views had changed etc.. I know better from conversations and told her she should be true to herself just as I intended to be true to myself. I told her that I was sad to learn of our differences in perspectives on the matter and that it was a big deal for me; that if I felt I could learn to not be sad or bothered by this, that I would let her know but that if I couldn’t, it was better to find out now.
We had sex. Afterwards, she told me it was the first time she felt I did not want to kiss her during sex and that it was a good idea for her to go home. I did not stop her; walked her to her car and said good night. She told me she would give me space until I knew it I could live with it.
I feel a sense of loss, she is a good person, I find her very attractive, we have very good communication but it is not fair to either one to go forward if I will hold this against her or if she will not feel trusted. Frankly, I do not want a future spouse who feels its fine for an attractive stranger to stick his thing in her if we ever have a downturn or in general.
PS – Nick: race is not a moral value, it is happenstance and as such says nothing about the character of a person.
I had a feeling that that might be where it was coming from – a place of insecurity. Somebody who enjoys casual sex, one night stands, or is ‘promiscuous’ is not necessarily going to let a stranger stick his penis in her just because you’re having relationship troubles. I was with my ex for nearly seven years. I have a very casual attitude toward sex (as long as all adults are consenting, I say go for it). I love one night stands. But I did not one time, no matter how bad things go, ‘let a stranger stick his penis in me’. Not one time. The ironic thing? At that point in my life, I had had 3.5 times as many sexual partners as he’d had, and HE – the one who did not believe in such ‘promiscuity’ – was the one who cheated. You cannot equate an appreciation of casual sex with cheating. I may enjoy casual encounters but it doesn’t mean that I can’t/won’t commit. You could find the most chaste woman in the world, someone who reviles casual sex, and it doesn’t mean she won’t cheat.
Explain to me how the number of partners someone has is a moral value. I don’t think you understand what “morality” actually means. You’re saying that casual sex is a sign of bad character (and yet, you still fucked her even as you held her in low esteem). Why is having casual sex morally bad. What ethical precept is violated, what harm is done, in having had casual partners in the past? She’s not cheating on you, right? Has she said she believes it’s okay to cheat on you, or given you an indication that she’s willing to cheat on you? In neither your story nor the original article have the women suggested that they don’t intend to honor monogamous commitments they’ve made; instead it’s about past consensual sexual behavior.
Many people couch insecurity, bigotry, and tribalism in the language of “morality.” I don’t buy it. It never stands up to critique; the beliefs always retreat to fuzzy thinking and conceptual vagaries. The beliefs continue to be strongly held while the supporting structure of those beliefs shift and wobble about underneath.
So, why exactly is having had consensual, casual sexual partners in the past without regret a “bad” thing? What exactly does that say negatively about their character?
@Rick … you have every right to feel as you do. It’s who you are and no one should tell you you’re wrong for feeling the way you do. I can’t believe some of the responses making you look as though you’re not being fair. Who is anyone to say you’re right or wrong?
I commend you for your showing compassion for her and not wanting to hurt her but when all is said and done, this is your life and accordingly, you have the right to feel as you do.
It seems like some people view this more as a political/philosophical issue rather than what I mean it as: I am a man who really likes a woman, wants to be with her but cannot get comfortable with her past — more specifically with her “casual sex”. I wish I did not feel this way but I do. I wish I could make it go away but I cannot. I wish I could just get over it but I am having a very hard time. I do not want to end this, but I see no clear solution: if I end the relation, I know there is light at the end of the tunnel though a vey painful process, but if I stick it out, it seems like I will be upset forever. This sucks! It is not about me versus her either. I wish she would have never told me..but she did. I asked her not to tell me stuff about her past….but I think she felt a need, and in doing so made it my issue too.
I am a man who does not want to hurt her, but is hurting. I think it may be more difficult for many of us men to accept promiscuity from our girlfriends than vice versa. I wish it was not so.
Just by way of update; I broke up with her a few days following the last post. Though sad, I knew of no other way to resolve this. I also realized that although her past bothered me (and probably in and of itself wnough for her not to be the one), the fact that her present views were not very different was more problematic going forward. I think it is difficult to understand for women that for some men, this is a no-go and nothing you can do about it.