Trigger warning for brief mentions of rape. Mod Note: If you want to go argue about trans people and cissexism, argue on this thread.
I have recently been doing a lot of posts about femmephobia, i.e., the cultural fear, hatred and devaluation of femininity (i.e. weakness, vulnerability and various traits that attempt to appeal to the powerful, such as beauty and nurturance) in favor of masculinity (i.e. power). In the comments section I’ve noticed a couple of misconceptions which I would like to clear up.
Femmephobia Is Not The Only Gender-Based Oppression
I may have not made that as clear as it could have been in the original post, but I guess I thought that would be obvious. In addition to femmephobia, we have:
- Gender role enforcement, the idea that men should be masculine and women feminine, and if they aren’t they should be shamed into being it or they are weird.
- Misandry/misogyny, the idea that people of one gender are awful because they are of that gender.
- Homophobia, the idea that two people of the same gender having sex is totally gross.
- Cissexism, the idea that you are “really” whatever gender the doctor said you were when you were born, and your hormonal profile, bodily appearance, social gender and strongly-held beliefs on the matter make no difference.
- Rape culture, the cluster of beliefs and attitudes that tend to make rape and sexual assault more common in Western culture than many other crimes are.
- Add your own in the comments!
Now, sometimes these intersect with each other in interesting and exciting ways. For instance, cissexism and gender role enforcement interact with each other when trans people have to display stereotypical traits of their own gender in order to be allowed to change their body as they see fit. This doesn’t mean that the “root cause” of cissexism is gender role enforcement, or the root cause of gender role enforcement is cissexism; it means they play into each other and end up creating an even suckier situation than either could do individually.
The same thing is true with femmephobia. Homophobes think all people of the same gender having sex with each other is gross (homophobia); however, they tend to talk about how gay men having sex with each other is gross way more often than they talk about how lesbians having sex with each other is gross, because the gay men are becoming like women, and that is super-gross (femmephobia). Rape apologists think that men can’t be raped (rape culture), and when they are raped by being penetrated it means that they’re girly because only girls are penetrated, and when are raped by being enveloped it means they’re girls because real men enjoy any sex they happen to have (femmephobia). Femmephobia is not the cause of all gender-based oppressions; it is just a factor that plays into some of them.
Femmephobia Is Not Misogyny In Disguise
Femmephobia is not some super-secret feminist way of saying “all men’s oppresion is sekritly about women anyway.” Hatred of the feminine is not hatred of women. There are many women who are not feminine; there are many men who are feminine.
In fact, femmephobia disadvantages men far more than it disadvantages women. If women are too feminine, they get hit with femmephobia (a very conventionally attractive woman is generally considered to be a bitch and a moron); if women are too masculine, they get hit with gender role enforcement (my mom tells me it’s gross I don’t shave my armpits). However, the huge realm of behavior between too feminine and too masculine is available for women to pursue– you can put on makeup and fashionable clothing every morning or have short hair and wear blue jeans, and no one will criticize you.
However, if a man is feminine at all, he will get hit with both femmephobia and gender role enforcement. Like musical theater? Want to take care of your appearance and pay attention to your outfit? Need medical attention for a physical or, God forbid, mental problem? Well, you’d better be very comfortable in your gender identity, because large parts of the culture will be convinced you are somehow less of a man because of it, and being less of a man is clearly the worst thing you could possibly be ever.
“However, the huge realm of behavior between too feminine and too masculine is available for women to pursue– you can put on makeup and fashionable clothing every morning or have short hair and wear blue jeans, and no one will criticize you.”
I hate to break it to you, but there’s no magical aura of protection that keeps women safe from criticism and body policing. It may seem like society is a little more lax and it may be a little true here and there, but it’s not all gone. Men and women are both under the microscope.
@Patrick – “For example there is not a single documented case of a homosexual woman who was killed for her sexual orientation in Nazi Germany. But thousands of gay men were hunted down, imprisoned and killed. The law that legitimized the prosecution didn’t even include homosexual women. I’m not sure how the situation is today in countries where homosexuality is still banned, but I suppose men are more affected from the prosecution.” Not entirely true. You are correct that Paragraph 175 applied only to male homosexuality, the rationale behind it being passed was that men who were gay were not… Read more »
“”I wouldn’t know for sure, but I would think some trans women would argue that. For them, being considered a woman by society is hard work. But comparatively, I wonder how much effort it takes for transitioning to male — I know there’s a lot of tips about simply the way you hold yourself and the language you use in that community.”” I think that for trans men it is easier for them to be degendered than cis men (and that is already easy enough) but their efforts are not inherently laughable. Whereas for trans women, since womanhood is not… Read more »
“Heh. Hell, even biologically, female is default. It’s only androgens that make a body outwardly male. (see Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome)”
Not exactly, it’s more complicated than that. Women who have Complete AIS rely on testosterone converting to estrogen to have feminine features. They respond little to not-at-all to the testosterone in its first incarnation, but some or a lot to it’s second.
And by the way, estrogen cannot convert back to testosterone, so conditions that induce masculine features usually revolve around having a lot more testosterone than is normal for their phenotype at birth (ie Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia).
Schala, it’s rather more complicated than that; there are a lot of different societies that practiced preferential female infanticide, for a lot of different reasons, not always connected to inheritance.
“If manhood is something you achieve while femininity is something you get automatically without doing anything, though, doesn’t that imply that to fail at manliness (or, worse, to choose not to pursue manliness) is to be feminine by default?” I wouldn’t know for sure, but I would think some trans women would argue that. For them, being considered a woman by society is hard work. But comparatively, I wonder how much effort it takes for transitioning to male — I know there’s a lot of tips about simply the way you hold yourself and the language you use in that… Read more »
I think what Skidd is saying is about Womanhood itself not just femininity. A man _must_ be manly in order to achieve and maintain Manhood; his status as a man can be revoked at any time when he fails to be masculine. But for women Womanhood doesn’t have to be earned through a requisite amount of femininity; her status as a woman is not in danger of being revoked regardless of how masculine or feminine she is (to some degree, I still maintain there is a degree of butchness where a woman can be degendered… although, that degree may be… Read more »
If manhood is something you achieve while femininity is something you get automatically without doing anything, though, doesn’t that imply that to fail at manliness (or, worse, to choose not to pursue manliness) is to be feminine by default? No because failure at manhood is not always presumed to be a matter of being feminine. Even among people who abide by the feminine/masculine binary there are plenty of ways to insult and otherwise cut down someone who has a male configured body without likening them to women. And that’s what people seem to get wrong. They like to think that… Read more »
“And you’re aware that female infanticide has been pretty common throughout world history, right? Still is. It’s not something that was just caused by China’s one-child policy.” It was almost totally caused by inheritance policies, and assimilation of the woman in the other’s family (it’s one or the other, there was a standard). Hence the family name would die out, if only legally-speaking. And people in their quest to not die and live through their lineage, have become materialistic and want to live through their family name, regardless that your lineage’s actions are their own (free will and all). It’s… Read more »
Oh, unless you mean stuff like it being easier to get help as a homeless woman than a homeless man? Sorry, the parallel with infanticide was confusing.
Uh – you’re saying unmanly men being actually literally left to die is a common thing and not restricted to “specific” situations? This is not a rhetorical question, I’m actually confused by that.
(And you’re aware that female infanticide has been pretty common throughout world history, right? Still is. It’s not something that was just caused by China’s one-child policy.}
If you fail at manliness, you’re nothing, worth contempt, derision, possibly being left to die. If you’re feminine, and seen as female, well you’re not left to die for it, outside specific “we can only have one child and he must inherit and be male to inherit (or our family dies out)” deals.
If manhood is something you achieve while femininity is something you get automatically without doing anything, though, doesn’t that imply that to fail at manliness (or, worse, to choose not to pursue manliness) is to be feminine by default?
As a tomboy myself, I know I have lots more range in which I’m allowed to play with in my presentation and my likes and dislikes. If I skip shaving my legs, I’m “lazy”, but I’m not losing my womanhood for it. If a man shaves his legs, he is possibly effeminate. The more I consider it, the more I think “femmephobia” is about denying men their manhood, rather than feminity being lesser. In cis situations: Womanhood is conferred automatically as a girl reaches a certain age. Manhood requires aquirring and maintaining a certain level of “masculinity”. In many native… Read more »
@jim
“I suggest you lose it somewhere. It’s about as offensive as “white nigger”. It’s a nice try and it sure will insult …..wait….all the right people. On second thought I am beginning to come around on this one.”
Reminds me of the outh park episode where they change the definition of fag to “asshole biker”
I put “lazy” in quotes, because being made-up and having brushed hair isn’t the gold standard to me. You need to look presentable, but that’s about it (and my hair, even unbrushed, is better than bed hair), make-up is an extra if you feel like it.
Same here. I can be “lazy about it” and present in jeans and a t-shirt with unbrushed hair without make-up (sort of how I would have presented pre-transition), and no one bats an eyelid. I can also decide to wear a skirt, make-up, brush my hair, same no-batting-an-eyelid.
superglucose, I’ve found way more latitude in presenting female than I ever had in presenting male.
Ok now I can articulate my thoughts on Femmephobia:
I think that feminine things are put on a pedistle, not hated. Much in the same way that the upper crust could get dirty or put on airs, women are allowed to be feminine or masculine… and women are put on an unattainable pedistle that’s narrow and easy to fall off of.
In Ouran High School Host Club, a 17 years old boy, who likes his cute bunny plushy, eats cake like it’s going out of fashion and is as small as an 8 years old (and makes the cutest faces). But obviously, he’s flatchested. He’s also one of the best karateka of Japan, and one of the richest heirs of Japan as well.
Moe’s an interesting topic – though I wouldn’t go so far to say that it’s “hyper femininity”, at least not by western standards. TV tropes has a fairly good definition: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Moe “Hayao Miyazaki once stated that Moe is the natural result of attempts to simply create a female character whom you can sympathize with.” — the new My Little Pony series and it’s following are sort of following the moe concept, and they’re not even human. In a big way, moe is about the big-brother instinct of the viewer and wanting to protect the character, only some viewers have sexual… Read more »
“I suggest to you that “Macho Faggot” has a nice ring to it.”
I suggest you lose it somewhere. It’s about as offensive as “white nigger”. It’s a nice try and it sure will insult …..wait….all the right people. On second thought I am beginning to come around on this one.
Strangely enough, to myself, I have always defined any man who was overly masculine as a “Faggot”. I suggest to you that “Macho Faggot” has a nice ring to it. And toward Typhon: In response to the musing on hyper-femininity, I present to you the concept of Moe. However, Moe is a japanese idealised form of hyper-femininity, most seen in the anime shows of the past few years. I can’t give you a full history of it, as I am only dimly aware myself, but I would say that it can be construed as annoying by some people. Possibly the… Read more »
In my world of being a stay at home dad, masculinity is deemed bad, predatory, dangerous, incompetent, etc.
Do security guards follow moms with children into the bathroom too?
“I honestly and genuinely did not have even the slightest inkling that “whining” is gendered masculine, hence why I bowled straight over it. Is it really!? I’m genuinely surprised, if that’s the case. Anyone else feel “whining” is/isn’t gendered masculine?” Of course it has a wider usage, but “whining” is the standard silencing tactic when male oppression comes up – father’s rights, circumcision, female sentencing discount. In fact it is Anti-Male Shaming Tactic Code Blue: Hypersensitivity. The same way, yes, “Bitch’ is used on men, but it is clearly female-gendered. The fact you don’t know this says a lot in… Read more »