A friend of mine and I were talking about men’s views of virginity, and she was like “gosh, well, it’s not like you have a masculism blog where you can discuss this topic and gather a variety of opinions from actual men” and I was like “Oh, right.”
My scattered thoughts on male virginity:
- I think it’s a source of shame for a lot of men that they’re virginal. Men are supposed to be able to get women, right? Masculinity, for a lot of people, especially young people, is tied up in promiscuous sexuality, and men who are locked out of that might have self-esteem and self-worth issues, particularly sexual self-esteem and self-worth issues.
- The Myth of Men Not Being Hot is particularly bad for men who have little or no evidence they’ve ever been sexually desirable.
- There are a lot more men than one would predict from gender stereotypes who are saving their virginity for a committed, meaningful relationship with someone they love. Casual sex is something a lot of guys don’t want, and that’s awesome for them.
- Men who are saving themselves for marriage get teased a ton.
- If a virgin guy says something like “of course I want casual sex, all men want casual sex” at any point in the virginity-loss proceedings, it is almost certain that he has put no actual thought into whether he’d like the reality of casual sex and whether he’s going to fall in love with the person he’s sleeping with two seconds after he comes. This I have learned from sad experience.
- Virginal men, especially if they don’t have romantic relationships, are often touch-starved. There is one acceptable way for men to get touched: sexually. Casual cuddles with friends are Not Allowed. Woo, homophobia!
- A lot of virginal men have very large anxieties about sexual performance and the size of their penes, leading to an inability to come or maintain an erection. I’ve honestly never experienced a premature ejaculation, but that might also have to do with anxiety.
- “Virginity” is defined as not having had penis-in-vagina intercourse. (Anal sex is not “real” sex, but it’s rare, in my experience, that anal occurs before PIV sex for inexperienced people.) Oral sex is just “messing around.” I find this bizarre.
What do you guys think?
I was amazed at the number of posts in this thread… I’m going to add my 2 cents despite the fact that the last comment is like a month old. I’m a 22-year old male virgin and the amount of shame I feel about that is unreal. I’ve never been in a real relationship before. The touch starvation point is spot on. A couple months back a friend of mine, who I have the hots for, was talking to me about feeling overwhelmed and ended up bursting into tears. I held her for a little while and it was great.… Read more »
And actually, it doesn’t even get to the macro level unless you consider the sum of all markets, or one large market that is so big that the individual behavior of the firm doesn’t affect it anymore, or the way the individual behavior of corporations affects the unemployment rate, or situations where most firms take price as a given, but one firm is big enough to set the price, and how those scenarios play out. But mostly macroeconomics is about GDP, inflation rates, unemployment rates, and stuff like that. Not what macroeconomic model I would ever use to simulate dating…
@dungone I mean “real life” as in the “real economy” and the “real sexual marketplace” as opposed to the abstract version that one gets if they only consider the basic principles of economics and nothing more. I’m still not sure what you mean by “real.” I’m certainly not considering only the basic principles of economics, and I understand there’s more than just supply and demand (in fact, I used to write econometric modeling software – probably the only practical use I’ve made of my math degree aside from teaching). I’m trying to locate your point and I keep failing to… Read more »
Incidentally, this has nothing to do with macroeconomics. Industrial Organization is based on the theory of the firm, which is based on the behavior of individual actors and how those behaviors coalesce to form a market. So it’s the bridge between micro and macro, if you will. That’s where things like the study of a monopoly, the effects of advertising, brand creation, etc., fit into the mix.
I mean “real life” as in the “real economy” and the “real sexual marketplace” as opposed to the abstract version that one gets if they only consider the basic principles of economics and nothing more. Look, I took economics. We made predictions based on supply/demand model in econ 101 that, by the senior year, were completely reversed by the predictions we made with more sophisticated models. Hate to say this but by that time, the freshmen who took econ 101 as an elective or as a business school requirement were long gone. So unfortunately the things that most people think… Read more »
What is meant is that the individual choices people make in choosing a partner (or two or three) operate in aggregate along market principles of supply, demand, and value. No, I get it. I also have a degree in economics, for what it’s worth, so I get that, too. What I’m saying is that “market principles of supply, demand, and value” is too simplistic a view, it’s high school level economics that is severely lacking in explanatory power when it comes to real-life phenomenon. It only covers basic principles, but if you actually apply it to real life, more often… Read more »
@dungone
What do you mean by “real life?”
If by “real life” you mean to apply a macroeconomic view of the sexual marketplace to individual choice, then that’s entirely beside the point. If the price of gas goes up people (in aggregate) are going to drive less. Whether or not I drive less doesn’t matter; I may not be able to drive less because of a number of factors. Nowhere else do we apply macroeconomic principles to apply to or predict individual transactions, and there’s no reason to suggest we should in describing a sexual marketplace.
@Ramesses, I’m not exactly sure what brought it up, but I can’t say I agree with your point of view. There is a kernel of truth in what you say, that economics can be used to aid in the study of culture and sex, but I find this interpretation to be somewhat toxic, especially to people I know of who are having trouble dating. If you are treating it as a marketplace, then you need to consider all the caveats of a marketplace. The standard textbook competitive model is simply not good enough, which is why economists study industrial organization… Read more »
@dungone When we say there is a sexual marketplace it isn’t intended to compare it to an individual going down to the market, picking and choosing among the many goods on offer. What is meant is that the individual choices people make in choosing a partner (or two or three) operate in aggregate along market principles of supply, demand, and value. While there is no store where I can go out, select, and purchase a sexual partner (well, there is De Wallen), I am nonetheless looking for the smartest, funniest, cutest girl out there who also likes me. I assume… Read more »
Enough people buy into it because they believe there are no other alternatives besides the idiocy these gigantic industrial systems turn out, they are are junkies hooked on product. We correct that by withdrawing our support from companies profiting off of ignorance and hope enough people join us when they wise up to the con. Break the circle completely. Stop consuming corporate MSM media, maybe even make your own. Seriously, why do we need to be held hostage to these morons that tell everyone what to think? If you don’t fit into the larger narrative find your own & don’t… Read more »
I didnt mean ignore it,of course its real, i meant it seems grossly blown out of proportion & tagging others with ratings like they are products on a shelf further dehumanizes people. Its *too* easy in other words, a complete reduction of our full dimensions into a another bloody one-size-fits-all economic system; now people can be reduced to a price tag too and apparently thats ok because we need to communicate ‘value’ quickly & efficiently? Yea, too quickly. Who says the media is us? The mainstream media is a grossly dumbed down advertising mill that plasters the airwaves with pure-cut… Read more »
Who says the media is us? We, our culture and the people that comprise it, produce, create, and consume the media we criticize. For example while personally I don’t watch Fox News, enough people do to make it a going concern. So while I might say Fox News doesn’t represent me or my views, it represents those of enough people to say it is representative of one facet of our culture. The same is true of images that come out of the beauty industrial complex – enough people buy into it and believe it that they are quite profitable indeed.… Read more »
Everything is on this subject of romance and sex seems to be broached like a business deal; its actually kind of repulsive, this reductionism. Even some of the terminology (Sexual marketplace?) sounds like trying to nail a deal rather than have loving relationships & genuine human contact. All these media generated expectations & standards that we now have to take into account, the cold hard objectification of everyone’s bodies which has become so commonplace…I dunno, im probably ranting here but it seems some wider issues need to be addressed first (and pls dont tell me this is how its always… Read more »
@debaser,
I can’t say I have seen it in my own family because I have no sisters my female cousins live on another continent. But I have seen it plenty of times among my friends and in my own dating experience. It’s never going to be like the caricature of real life that you see on TV, but it exists. Sometimes it’s there partially, other times you get the whole package.
Sorry hit send, wasnt done. Everything is on this subject of romance and sex seems to be broached like a business deal; its actually kind of repulsive, this reductionism. Even some of the terminology (Sexual marketplace?) sounds like trying to nail a deal rather than have loving relationships & genuine human contact. All these media generated expectations & standards that we now have to take into account, the cold hard objectification of everyone’s bodies which has become so commonplace…I dunno, im probably ranting here but it seems some wider issues need to be addressed first (and pls dont tell me… Read more »
Well this thread started nicely then you got into your nitpicking back n forth arguments like always happens when these issues come up….
Maybe we could stop rating people on a 1-10 scale like piece of furniture though, men & women alike?
I am a 23 year old male virgin. I do lack self esteem, it stems from the fact I still live with my mum, and I am autistic. I have never really had the tools to be able to deal with social situations involving the opposite sex. However, I blame myself for that and not women. I have though been told I am attractive more than once, but I have never been particularly good at receiving compliments. I’d just like to point out that with regards to attraction, I think that men generally are not that well versed in detecting… Read more »
@Noah Brand, from 11/16 4:08pm: Yes, I do wear glasses. The arms are carbon fiber reinforced plastic because that shit is awesome. I’m also about to be married, and poly as we are, there’s not much free time. As a nonrepresentative woman, I like all kinds of men. Tall, short, fat, thin, hairy, bald, black, white, yellow, red. And by like I mean attraction and sexy thoughts. I like hands and shoulders and forearms and when I ride behind a man on a bike, I have a hard time keeping my eyes on the road instead of watching his calf… Read more »
dungone: “I’m actually thinking of the archetypal White Knight family member, father or mother or sibling, who claims to be a feminist and puts their daughter up on a chivalrous pedestal to try to fetch the highest price from society without actually giving her the tools she needs to fend for herself independently.” I’m not privy to the goings on of the family life of anyone except for my own but I have not once encountered this archetype you speak of. I know of it, seen in on tv, but I have yet to actually see it happening in real… Read more »
@tovyasagain, It seems that it’s not that your mother did anything at all wrong as a female parent, it’s just that you may have also benefited from a male perspective. Actually, I would have appreciated your mother’s perspective, which I got from all my female friends in college, instead. As long as there was a male perspective in it as well, I could have taken it as a sort of “this is how women in society think” sort of way. My parents took more of a “fend for yourself” approach to my dating life. With the exception of my father… Read more »
@debaser, I think there is a middle ground here. There are plenty of ways to raise a kid to be able to deal with social expectations without adding onto those expectations. Especially when piling on is actually working against your kid’s best interest and adding to her stress and unhappiness. I think that my exchange with The_L was centered on the situation where if the socially acceptable way of doing things clearly isn’t working out very well, the parent’s job is to help his daughter find a better way that works for her. Besides, there are plenty of parents who… Read more »
I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but as far as raising kids goes from the last couple comments (for the record, I’m not a parent), I think it’s also important to keep in mind the world they’re going to grow up in. I was raised by a single Mom, who raised me both with a “society says men are predators, women are prey, and this is bad” dynamic, and with a general attitude towards dating that was geared way more towards the typical “female” role. I certainly applaud teaching girls that it’s okay for them to be forward… Read more »
Everyone gets flack from all angles. I was just saying my thoughts on the subject, as someone who isn’t a parent (hence starting it with “I think”).
Being a good parent is multifaceted. And yes, I agree about critical thinking but those things are not mutually exclusive.
And note two posters say that parents should be doing this and that but chrislittlesun says parents shouldn’t bother to do it. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Parents get flak from all angles.
“If you don’t teach your children what society will expect of them then IMO you (as a parent) are failing in one of your most important roles. Again, IMO.”
I think kids are pretty good at understanding what society expects from them, I really doubt parents need to give them any help in that matter. I think parents would be much better set teaching kids how to think critically about the world around them and to be able to assert themselves in the face of it.
I’ve written about this on FC but yes, you’ve got to acknowledge the role society wants … not that you must force them into that role. If you don’t teach your children what society will expect of them then IMO you (as a parent) are failing in one of your most important roles. Again, IMO.
Does this mean buying into every stereotype for the demographic of your kid?
Well, as one might expect, saying to raise children a certain way and actually doing it is very very different. If I could simply instill certain qualities in my children, I would, and I try, but understand that children are individuals with their own thoughts and ideas (which might be in conflict with what the parent is trying to instill). Also that society and culture impact children in manners that might contradict what the parents might want to instill. Anyway if I can simply leave non-parents with one thought, a big part of parenting is socializing your children into the… Read more »
My father actually pulled out the “you’ll be surrounded by fellows if you just play hard to get” line when I was in high school. Yeah, because acting unattainable really matters if nobody’s showing ANY interest in the first place @The_L, yes, this is neck deep in gender-role byproduct. Just as being confident doesn’t matter if every girl a boy ever talks to treats him like a creep. Family members are often the biggest gender police out there. I’m not sure if your father was well-meaning or just disconnected. In a way, he could have been thinking that if you… Read more »
But either way, your story does highlight the biggest thing that men themselves can do – change the way they raise their daughters. I have a friend (educated liberal east coast type) who is nonetheless raising his daughter with the men=predators/women=prey dynamic. When I called him on it he said, “talk to me when you have a daughter.” If I ever have a daughter I plan on telling her to do whoever she wants whenever she’s ready (taking precautions as appropriate to avoid undesired consequences), don’t be pressured into doing someone or something you don’t want, and don’t pressure others… Read more »