When it comes to porn and its usage in a committed relationship, Hugo Schwyzer and Aaron Gouveia don’t agree. A civil, heated, and provocative debate ensues.
Editor’s note: This exchange between Hugo and Aaron (aka DaddyFiles) was lifted directly from the comment section of the post: “Are Most Men Like This”? Sex, Lies and the Newsweek Study.
Daddy Files: How can you speak of the importance of honesty after your last piece in which you had absolutely no qualms about a woman LYING to her future husband about the paternity of their child?
It is the absolute height of hypocrisy my friend.
Not to sound like an MRA, but it’s instances like this that make me feel you really do have a very real bias against men—and women can do no wrong. Seriously, let’s think about this.
You’re knocking guys who choose to keep their occasional porn viewing habits a secret because it might upset their significant other. Yet you never once criticized a woman who married a man after getting pregnant with a baby that might not even be his. The paternity lie is FAR WORSE than not telling your wife you watch porn because she gets unreasonably upset about it. Yet here’s an entire column dedicated to honesty, when clearly you seem to think only men need to come clean. Women, apparently, can do whatever they want.
For such a smart guy this one was extremely disingenuous and, frankly, pretty upsetting.
Hugo: DF, you really don’t see the difference? The distinction is that I was (and still am) in no place to criticize Jill. The only people who are are women who have found themselves in similar situations. She was the pregnant one, and she had the moral authority to call the shots on what was disclosed. I didn’t have the right then and still don’t now to override that decision, and I’ll place my entire reputation as a writer and a husband and a father on that. (I think that’s called doubling down.) In a perfect world, would Jill have been honest with Ted up front? Yup. And in a perfect world we’d all use contraception every time, save when we we’re trying to make babies.
“Are men who lie about porn viewing the scum of the earth? Of course not. But it’s weak sauce to say that ‘I’d tell her the truth, but she can’t handle the truth.'” –Hugo
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Are men who lie about porn viewing the scum of the earth? Of course not. But it’s weak sauce to say that “I’d tell her the truth, but she can’t handle the truth.” I am in a position to say that because I am a man who has used porn — just as a woman who had been pregnant out of wedlock and unsure of the father’s identity is in a better position to weigh in on what Jill did.
It’s not a bias against men. It’s a belief that men should call out other men before we call out women. I hardly think that’s hypocritical. YMMV.
Daddy Files: I’ve never murdered somebody in cold blood. By your rationale I’m not allowed to condemn that action or judge others who have, simply because I’ve never engaged in that specific activity. That line of thinking is the definition of weak sauce.
In the case of Jill, I’m not arguing it was your place to override her decision. But I certainly think you’d be well within your rights to criticize her decision because of the obvious lack of honesty and high level of manipulation and deceit. That’s just fair play and common sense.
But most troubling is when you say “It’s a belief that men should call out other men before we call out women.” Are you kidding?? People should call out other people when it’s deserved. Gender does not factor into it at all. The fact that it does for you is a little strange, and rather telling. If we’re really all about equality then a lie is a lie is a lie. I’m not going to refrain from criticizing one person who lies just because that person is a woman (or a man). The fact that you think men should focus on solely calling out other men before women is just…well, confusing.
But I guess if we’re talking about honesty at all costs then men will need to come clean when their wives have gained weight and ask the question “Do I look fat?” Or tell her we love how she looks when she asks us, even if we’re not fond of her wardrobe. My point is we all tell little lies, or at the very least withhold the truth, because we don’t want to hurt the person we’re with. Obviously you can’t take that to an extreme, but you also can’t go around saying every little truth that’s on your mind. We’d be taking frying pans to the head.
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Hugo: Aaron, if you want to revisit the discussion about the paternity issue, let’s do it in another thread. Controversy drives things — write a post explaining why my stance pissed you off, and let’s put it out there. Or let it lie. But I’d like to keep this thread focused on porn.
Porn use is not like other little white lies. We don’t live with our sexuality in compartments; what gets us off alone will invariably have direct implications for the person with whom we’re getting off when we’re together. (Bad syntax, but you get the idea.)
The right to use porn and the right to be in a porn-free relationship are both conditional. And the sad thing is that many women would like to be in porn free relationships, but acquiesce to their partners’ porn use because if there’s one thing that they dislike MORE than porn, it’s dishonesty.
I don’t think that’s analogous to a partner’s weight gain, either. People need to eat, people gain weight. People also need sexual pleasure. But they don’t need to use images of other people to get off. I think there’s a colossal distinction between saying “I don’t want to be in a relationship with a partner who uses porn” and saying “I don’t want my partner to ever masturbate.” If a man can’t get off to a fantasy in his head (if he’s in a relationship, preferably about his partner) then he’s had a rather sad failure of imagination.
Again, I’m not anti-porn. I think porn use is fine. But I also think it ought to be negotiable in a relationship rather than just assumed or tolerated.
Daddy Files: Hugo, sticking to the porn thread, I’ll address your last point.
You wrote “If a man can’t get off to a fantasy in his head (if he’s in a relationship, preferably about his partner) then he’s had a rather sad failure of imagination.” Huh? You’re really trying to judge people on how they fantasize and masturbate and who they should be imagining?? That’s just crap.
“Just because you imagine the Swedish bikini team giving you a collective rubdown doesn’t mean you love your wife any less. That’s why it’s fantasy.” –Aaron
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Just because you imagine the Swedish bikini team giving you a collective rubdown doesn’t mean you love your wife any less. That’s why it’s fantasy. Forget pornographic movies, we go to the mainstream cinema to watch films like Harry Potter so we can temporarily escape from reality. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just like there’s nothing wrong with conjuring up an image of a woman different from your wife. Second, who cares if someone needs visual stimuli to masturbate? Some people are more visual than others. So what? Condemning men for not having an imagination is just silly.
But more often than not, women make clear their disdain for porn after either having a discussion about it with guys or finding it on their browser history. Most men who are casual porn viewers don’t feel they’re doing anything wrong, so there’s no need to tell their girlfriends/wives. Now if those women ask about porn specifically I think it’s worth the conversation, but those women have to be reasonable. But usually—as evidenced by the women in your aforementioned example—they automatically and incorrectly peg us as “porn addicts” and wonder what’s wrong with us.
What you seem to be saying is “If a woman has a problem with pornography and her husband doesn’t stop watching it, he’s a thoughtless jerk.” That’s not true. Marriage does not mean doing whatever your wife says. If two people have different opinions about things, it does not mean the woman is always right.
Luckily my wife has zero problems with porn, and likes it herself sometimes. If she did have an issue, I’d listen and we’d discuss it. If she persisted and gave me an ultimatum—the “either porn goes or I go” speech—I would probably go. Not because I’m a porn freak, but because I would never want to be married to someone who lacked the ability to compromise and respect my point of view.
Any woman who would leave a man SOLELY because he watches some porn is ridiculous. And I have no qualms about saying that because it’s true.
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Hugo: Aaron, right back atcha:
Any man who would leave a woman SOLELY because she objects to his masturbating to porn is ridiculous. And I have no qualms about saying that because it’s true.
Hell, let’s leave the genders out of it, because I happily admit many women DO like porn and some men don’t. So Spouse 1′s longing to use porn matters. Spouse 2′s longing to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t use porn also matters. I’m willing to stipulate they matter equally. What gets my goat is the implication that Spouse 1′s wanting to use porn is “normal and healthy” while Spouse 2 is an unrealistic control freak. No, they both have needs that are EQUALLY VALID.
Aaron, will you grant that?
Daddy Files: First of all Hugo, as I already explained I wouldn’t leave because she didn’t like me masturbating to porn. I would leave because she’s giving me an unreasonable ultimatum based on something completely insignificant. That is a major red flag.
And no, actually I can’t grant you your last point. Here’s why…
First of all, let’s leave out those with porn addictions. They need help and have a problem. Instead, let’s talk about run-of-the-mill porn users. No lap dances, no phone sex, no prostitutes. Just your average joe who spanks it on occasion to free Internet porn. He doesn’t do it in the presence of his wife, because she doesn’t approve. He has a healthy sex life and his porn viewing does not interfere or detract from his marriage.
So in short, we have a woman upset about nothing. She doesn’t see him watch porn, she doesn’t hear him watch porn and he’s not choosing porn over her. Which begs the question: why the hell is she upset??
“So in short, we have a woman upset about nothing. She doesn’t see him watch porn, she doesn’t hear him watch porn and he’s not choosing porn over her. Which begs the question: why the hell is she upset??” –Aaron
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If she doesn’t like porn, she shouldn’t watch it. She has every right to her personal preference. But asking her husband to stop something he was doing long before he met her—not to mention something that has no bearing on her life—is ludicrous.
I’m a Red Sox fan. I hate the Yankees. But if I married a diehard New York fan do I have the right to tell her to stop rooting for the Yankees simply because they offend me greatly (which they absolutely do)?? No, of course not. I don’t like the fact that she roots for the Yankees, but I have no right to tell her to stop.
This is the same thing.
Hugo: “his porn viewing does not interfere or detract from his marriage.”
Well, nothing could be more subjective than that. If she doesn’t want a sexual life that’s compartmentalized, if she wants all of the sexual energy flowing into the marriage and not dissipated elsewhere, that’s as valid a view as his is.
What bugs the crap out of me is the insistence that women are being shrewish harridans for wanting their partners to be sexual only with them. Men aren’t bad for saying “no” to that — but women aren’t wrong to ask or to make it a deal-breaker.
Sex is not like other human activities in terms of its ability to enthrall us and captivate us. It is normal, it is healthy, but it is also unique in its appeal to intimacy. And it’s wildly unreasonable for a woman to say “I want you to be intimate only with me, and I feel that masturbating to images of other women compromises that intimacy.” He doesn’t have to agree – but HE DOESN’T GET TO TELL HER THAT HER FEELINGS ARE UNREASONABLE. If he does that, he’s far more controlling than she.
“He doesn’t have to agree – but HE DOESN’T GET TO TELL HER THAT HER FEELINGS ARE UNREASONABLE. If he does that, he’s far more controlling than she.” –Hugo
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Aaron: This is the heart of the problem, when you write, “What bugs the crap out of me is the insistence that women are being shrewish harridans for wanting their partners to be sexual only with them.”
You think a guy jerking off to porn is some kind of cheating. You think it’s being sexual with someone else. THIS IS NOT TRUE! If I’m watching porn I’m not “with” anyone. I’m by myself. I’m not cheating, I’m just whacking off. Probably because my wife can’t/won’t have sex with me at the time.
If you jerk off in the shower and Halle Berry pops into your head, are you cheating? Are you robbing your wife of sexual intimacy? Hell no. You’re jerking off. Even when you watch porn you haven’t had sex with another woman, kissed another woman, touched another woman…hell, you haven’t even been in the same room with another woman! I contend (again, unless we’re talking about a porn addict) this is a non-factor and has no bearing on the marriage.
But for the guys who are merely using porn to tide them over until they can once again be intimate with their wives, I can tell you with 100% certainty they are not doing anything wrong and the women are getting upset about nothing.
If someone doesn’t want a relationship with a porn user that is totally valid . How dare Aaron claim that because he sees it as ‘no big deal’ then everyone else must too He calls for women to respect if her partner wants to watch porn yet reuses to extend the same respect to a woman who doesn’t want porn in her relationship His argument is flawed and is that same as if I said ‘oh me not wanting you to use porn is no big deal so dont’ It’s as simple as this . Each side has the right… Read more »
Daddy files fails to address the important studies that repeatedly show that porn men who use pirn consistently rate their partners as less attractive and themselves as less satisfied in their marriages . Additionally, he fails to address the fact that the porn Using spouse is doing something that hurts the self esteem and body image of their significant other . Of porn use is really no big deal to a man as he claims then why not stop it in order to protect the partner and show them he doesn’t need pre baby perfect looking female bodies to get… Read more »
A woman has the right to establish porn use as a deal breaker, just a man has the right to establish deal breakers as well. The point is that if a man knows it’s a deal breaker for her, then he should be upfront about it for both of their sakes. Then she can make an informed decision as to whether she wants to live with it. And there is nothing wrong with her if she decides that she does not want it at all in her marriage or relationship. Just as some people want to marry someone who thinks… Read more »
I felt that the former husband using porn and hiding it was deceptive. I did not feel like he was cheating by looking. I felt like he was cheating by hiding. By keeping me from sharing part of his sex life. By keeping me held at arms length so I could not know him and his desires. Those desires were more important than the hurt his distance caused and that was the cheating. It should be every person’s right to have a sexual life that is fulfilling and gratifying. It is not the right in a relationship though, to use… Read more »
What both posters are missing here is that there are a large number of women (and men) who are uncomfortable with their partners watching pornography (when they would not be uncomfortable with their partners fantasizing about other people, real or imagined) because “porn culture” and the depictions of sex/social relationships/power dynamics in pornography are fundamentally degrading and damaging to women–because someone who gets off to pornography (or, at least, mainstream pornography) is AT SOME LEVEL getting off on the dehumanization of women, and on a representation of violence against women. (I use women here because I’m talking about the apparent… Read more »
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What mostly ticks me off about this article is how judgmental you’re being, DaddyFiles. My fiance didn’t think it unreasonable at all to stop watching porn when he entered in a relationship with me. I never nagged him about it. He was simply honest with me in a straightforward manner on the phone one day when we were in a long distance relationship, and I reasonably told him why I didn’t like that. I didn’t actually expect him to give it up, especially since we’d only been dating a month, but he respected my wishes and did. And it’s none… Read more »
One of the nice things about being a gay male is that the partnership is made up two guys who don’t have a problem whatsoever with porn, and often enjoy it together. The “Strong Father” post about daughters and sons is good for a few campy laughs. I’ve met college-age guys who work in porn, and not only do they know they are being “objectified”, but they thoroughly enjoy it! I don’t think there is a need for me to write to their dads and apologize for rubbing one out over a picture of their sons, particularly since their dads… Read more »
I have a gay friend who says that the gay community is vicious towards aging men. He says that if you’re not young and buff you’re insignificant, to put it mildly. That’s not very good evidence for building long-term security in a relationship. The harsh truth is, we live in a difficult time in a socially adolescent or immature culture. One can NOT only hope that we grow up but we must actively undertake the challenges of doing so. And mutual respect and honoring of each other is a very healing and healthy way to begin.
“The gay community is vicious towards aging men”. Gee, and then why don’t aging gay men turn towards EACH OTHER for relationships? Ah, because they too, lust the “young and buff”, but rather than admit it, they complain that nobody appreciates their beautiful inner selves…even though they themselves are hardly seeking a relationship with somebody solely for his beautiful inner self. Anyhow, I know of too many inter-generational relationships (e.g. guy in his 20s hitched to a guy his 50s) to give such a claim about “viciousness” much credibility.
If there is nothing wrong with porn, then would you allow your daughter to pose? It does no harm? If you are a good dad, and there is nothing wrong with it, then you wouldn’t mind some other guy whacking off to a picture of your daughter after she is of age. Correct? Or your wife or partner. If it is just looking and spanking, why shouldn’t they help another dude out. Or if this is O.K. with you, then how about your son when he heads off to college. He is not gay but why shouldn’t he make money… Read more »
StrongFathers, I have a daughter and a son. If either of them chose porn as a profession, I would support them. I would tell them to be strong with their boundaries and not to think this will be a life-long career though.
Yes, porn objectifies. So does the fashion industry. As long as boundaries are respected, I don’t have a problem with it.
It is worth noting that women objectify men all the time, not so much as sex objects but as money and success objects. But porn is an easier target, and our culture doesn’t encourage us to look at the less admirable side of certain women.
“If there is nothing wrong with porn, then would you allow your daughter to pose?” I never understood this argument. In a diverse society there are plenty of different values and different wants and need. I never wanted to be a plumber but I wouldn’t hesitate to employ one. I don’t think plumbers are morally objectionable or don’t less respect for plumbers. I would strongly advise against my daughter joining the army in most circumstances (a war like WW2 being the possible exception), or the police or other dangerous professions but I don’t think the police are morally objectionable or… Read more »
Honestly, no, I would be deeply worried if I had a daughter who wanted to act in porn movies. I would probably try to talk her out of it. I’d want her to have a different career. I can see how that might look hypocritical, but only if you use really faulty logic. Just because I’d be paranoid about dangers to my daughter doesn’t mean that the activity is therefore morally wrong. If I had a child who wanted to join the military, I’d try really hard to talk him/her out of that as well. That doesn’t mean military service… Read more »
This argument proves the futiliity in trying to convince anyone of anything. I might as well try to get all the air molecules in the room to all start moving in exactly the same direction, because *en masse*, people aren’t much different. We all have our own perception of the world. My worldview isn’t necessarily yours. So why must you think like me? I think the goal is just to find people with a highly compatible worldview then take it from there. Bringing it back to the first paragraph. Not telling a man he might not be the father of… Read more »
The illusion (or delusion) of porn is to replicate the experience of having or watching sexually provocative acts. Of course this is not real but our brains WANT it to be. That seems to be the rub for those that would object to their partner watching porn. The fact that their partner is wanting to have that sexual experience with others rather than themselves. It sure appears that those that are into porn (if you are in a relationship) don’t want to own up to the possibility (or probability) that the feelings behind your actions are creating distance or damage… Read more »
I won’t argue with the main thrust of your argument, Kenny. I think it’s quite acceptable that a couple could agree not to have either partner watch porn. Or whatever. I do think, though, that we probably ought to try some of the things we “know to be bad.” I say this because I believe that sexuality plays a unique role in our culture as a touchstone for extra repression, which makes us ultimately less democratic and autonomous. The guilt and shame imposed on children is a deeper “bad” as far as I’m concerned. It serves to attach something like… Read more »
(Henry, I’ve been trying to comprehend what others in this thread are feeling about the issue in the article, honesty about porn use. To my understanding, the article is not suggesting that porn be banned from relationships, just that those that have porn in it should be above boards. The responses have sent many ricochet arguments, mostly all skirting the issue. It’s like ADD on steroids. If you would and could, please try to keep the conversation on topic. We all know there’s seriously bad and detrimental issues out there and maybe we can address some of those you mentioned… Read more »
Hi Kenny, I suggested that due to extra repression, *some* of the behavior we’re discouraged from is more natural and normal than we think. This might include viewing and using erotica. (I used the side-example of tightening sexual harrassment codes because we’ve all seen this as adults.) I’m suggesting that a more experimental, less prescriptive approach to sexuality would be better. I think a more eroticized, less repressive society would be better. My argument parallels Herbert Marcuse’s in Eros and Civilization. I’m not advocating sex with childrem or anything that really *is* bad, but am advocating for loosening up adult… Read more »
This subject has bothered me to the point that I reread the transcript that compromises this article. I found a couple of items that would maybe score in a debate competition. 1- The topic of this article/debate is about honesty and compromise in a relationship for those who use porn, should we bring it out in the open or hide the truth? There has been many ricochet arguments that strayed off topic. 2- The topic is not about some other article regarding paternity issues. What seems to be that (non-sequitur) mud-fight is to suggest that if Hugo was judged to… Read more »
Excising porn addicts (or porn addiction) from a conversation about porn is akin to talking about the glories of dessert but exempting the overweight from chiming in. It’s a deceptively fine line between use/ abuse. From my work in this field, I can assure you that no single porn addict EVER set out to become one; it always started with plain, old curiosity. We might well consider our own potential vulnerability to it while we’re so vehemently defending our right to use porn. Why it’s relevant to this thread is that because once compulsion takes hold, our free choice evaporates,… Read more »
I guess my concern regarding honesty is that we live in a sex-negative culture. Simply because someone lies about their porn use doesn’t make them an addict. It makes them ashamed or just wanting to keep it private.
If people weren’t fearful about being fully self-expressed about their sexuality you’d have a lot less lying about all sorts of sexual behaviors. The fact that this fear exists or that people are judged negatively because of their sexuality doesn’t mean it is an addiction or some sort of blight on society.
You are correct, Jeni- “Simply because someone lies about their porn use doesn’t make them an addict”. Correct. Show me where I said otherwise. An addict is an addict because they know themselves to be one and/ or they have been diagnosed by a Certified Sex Addiction Therapist to be one, and even then, it’s not a rubber stamp–it’s based on criteria that BOTH the compulsive and the therapist come to conclude together. And I don’t disagree that we’re living in a sex-negative culture, but as Hugo Schwyzer pointed out in one of his recent columns (last week?) a lot… Read more »
Lili Bee, your argument confuses me a little. I agree that the line bewtween use and abuse is thin and the slope on which that line stands is slippery. And that is true of anything – not just porn. Substitute porn for anything else, and your point is valid. This conversation, however, is hyper-charged by the fact that it revolves around sexuality and relationships. I contend that all things in moderation are not harmful. I also contend that a relationship based on full disclosure is based on suspicion and is, ultimately, an un-trusting relationship. Relationships remain interesting to the degree… Read more »
Roger- Forgive me if I’m not understanding your question correctly but you keep saying, “if it were anything but porn….” But why the abstraction? The entire point of everything being written here in Hugo and Daddy File’s disagreement IS about porn! To start crafting other metaphors and what-if’s only confuses and takes us off-point. So I’m not sure what purpose it serves to imagine we’re speaking about anything else…? Also- you state “So, if one partner enjoys porn (substitute any word you want here) in moderation, and chooses not to tell her/his partner, there should be room for that in… Read more »
Roger, I made a very similar point to Lili Bee a couple days ago and am waiting for her to reply. However, I specifically cited women’s use of vibrators and other sex toys accompanied by steamy romance novels, magazines, etc. that get them aroused. That serves the same purpose as porn except there is a virtual third person touching her and/or penetrating her. Not surprisingly, the feminist porn critics have no problem with women doing the very same thing as men, except they take it a step further and have a virtual lover “down there” bringing them to climax in… Read more »
What, pray tell, is the “work [you’ve] done in this field” – the nature and length? I’m curious, since you mention it.
Wow. Who would have guessed that the most commented on post on record for this website (I am guessing here) would boil down to a conversation about viewing porn and masturbation? I followed the heated debate between Hugo and Dave (?) yesterday. I was fascinated by the strength with which each defended their position. I thought it was an exceptional display of one important dimension of manhood – the refusal to back down from something we feel strongly about. Thanks for staying with it guys. Good stuff.
I’m not sure about the conditions for sex workers in the porn industry. One commentor rightly said that, if your choices are floor-person at WalMart at $7.50 an hour versus porn at $1,000 a scene, you may choose porn. I’m pretty sure that either of these jobs would predispose people to use drugs or alcohol, but I’ve read and believe that people in porn often have abuse histories and are isolated from family systems, so they are probably at greater risk. Erin said that people in the Industry can be objectively exploited, even if they say that they’re not, and… Read more »
I enjoyed reading the conversation between Hugo and DF! Great debate! I happen to side a bit more with Hugo here, because I have been in this position before. I also happen to have different ideas about commitment. I think what it comes down to is a good match between couples. People have their own ideas about what is good for them…. The bigger issue to me is the one about “lying.” I think they are just assumptions, but they are important ones. Hugo mentioned, in passing, about the idea that men lie about their porn. DF on the other… Read more »
I am curious about why men who use porn never consider the ethics of it. I’m not talking about “morality.” What are the ethical implications of playing a part in something which objectifies and often leads to the enslavement other human beings? Why is it not creepy to jack off to a photo of some young woman who is younger than your daughter, and who is posing for the pictures because she needs the money for her next fix or an abortion or because she is desperate and has no other options, or because she is mentally ill, or because… Read more »
Men created beautiful things, buildings, museums, and libraries to give back to the community, to make themselves important, and therefore get laid. Even though I believe men are good and meet many. It comes down to getting down most of the time. Most wars did not start because of valor but because of testosterone. So be it.
I don’t think Aaron is suggesting that any husband simply disregard his wife’s feelings about porn. I don’t think he is suggesting that if your wife does not like your porn viewing then you just tell her that she’s being unreasonable and she should just get over it. There is a difference between expressing a feeling and making a request, and there’s a difference between making a request and making a demand. Just because one spouse dislikes the other spouse’s activities does not automatically mean the “offending” spouse is insensitive or horribly selfish. What seems to be in Hugo’s messages… Read more »
I’ve displayed plenty of reason in my posts above, which is, I believe, one reason you don’t HAVE an argument to give. And no, porn advocacy is not on my list of priorities. I just can’t cry for you, sorry. There are wars going on and people being hurled into poverty and you think all the empathy should be yours cuz you’re afraid you can’t have your little jerk off picture books? My god.
Name calling and mocking- signs of true intelligence. You’re going to make me cry- (yawn). Can someone with an argument post now?
an argument is wasted on those like you, who have neither empathy nor reason
@Craig Williamson: Where is the prudishness in not wanting to exploit or objectify women? That is hardly 1950’s. In fact, these ‘critiques’ came out of the feminist movement DURING the wonderful 60’s and 70’s. And I don’t understand what you mean by the female participants being ‘language police’. Cite one. It seems an hysterical reaction to women speaking their viewpoints. How is that policing your language?
scold, scold, scold de scold
proper lil schoolmarm aint ya
*rolls eyes
I’m not arguing for exploiting women at all. I marched with NOW and precursor organizations a number of times. But much of the woman-discourse on this site is nevertheless too “boundary oriented,” too scoldy, too shouldy, and so on. You can see this on practically every page. We’ve become much to anti-sensual (people are afraid to hug these days – I don’t even think there was more sex in the 60s – there was more touching – and it was a good thing.) Hugo begins many of his articles here with “shoulds,” and I think this is the anti-human approach.
@Bobby: You said “When Men masturbate we increase the power of the orgasm by focusing on a mental or physical object while drawing out the physical pleasure as long as possible. A physical image will be stronger and work for longer then imagination alone.”
Women can do that to. But maybe a person’s strength of orgasm isn’t as important as maintaining a relationship with someone whose orgasmic ability can go DOWN because of what you do to ‘strengthen’ YOUR orgasm.
In my experience, sex isn’t a zero-sum game. Quite the opposite.
@Amberbug: If a person’s orgasmic ability goes diminishes because of his/her partner’s pleasure there is something seriously wrong. What we have in that situation is NOT love. It’s weird and enmeshed. It’s expecting that you and your partner become one and the same person. Woman-to-woman, I’m going to give you a piece of advice: NEVER allow your ability to derive sexual pleasure to be dependent on any individual (male or female). When you do that you give your power away to that individual. Your sexual pleasure is YOURS regardless of who you are fucking. Porn does not inherently exploit or… Read more »
“discussion about porn use”
I only know of one use for porn…
I thought this was a discussion about porn use. Looks like someone’s personal business is being splattered all over the internet.
Right, the problem with this site is also the return of a disgusting prudism. One would have thought that, after the sixties, this would have gone away. Much of the “critique” that occurs on this site is an attempt to police language, and most of the language police here are the female participants. That’s why the issue of porn is so important: it’s an erotic language. I personally don’t like the bulk of modern porn, because it, indeed, does emphasize a variety of cruel fetishes. But much of the “should” stuff here is a flat and dispiriting move to the… Read more »
Wife one and I were in an open marriage when she got pregnant (by me – she was into women.) She asked me not to have other partners during her pregnancy, and I didn’t. We resumed the open marriage later. It began to suck (from my point of view,) so we changed to don’t ask; don’t tell. I’m monogamous in marriage 2 now, but I think DADT works best if you are doing an open marriage. We didn’t have internet porn in those days, so it was either VCR or theatres. VCR was okay, and the early 80s porn was… Read more »
vcr, i hope you were watching on a betamax, as the visual resolution on vhs was terrible. couldnt see anything, and thats why pubic trimming wasnt necessary then.
couldnt have seen anything even if the performers were shaved pubically bare.
@Amber, I think my only real disagreement with any of your view points is with this “natural visual aids” idea. “And by ‘naturally’ I meant without physical visual aids. They are just not necessary for a good masturbatory sex life.” When we talk about stimulation that implies increasing the pleasure. The imagination is extremely powerful, but as far as human experiences it will always be trumped by the physical. Let me explain a little more. Imagining the Eiffel tower will always be below seeing a video walk through of it. The video will always be below standing on it. Imagining… Read more »
Hugo: DF, you really don’t see the difference? The distinction is that I was (and still am) in no place to criticize Jill. The only people who are are women who have found themselves in similar situations. She was the pregnant one, and she had the moral authority to call the shots on what was disclosed. This argument is utterly absurd. It’s not just murderers who have moral authority to vote to punish murderers. All men are in a place to criticize Jill, because they can or should be able to emphasize with Tim, the man she duped into marrying… Read more »
Worse than that, as this isn’t about not being in a place to criticize her. He actively praised her and promoted her absolute choice in the matter that no one, man or woman, should be able to criticize her for it. That same lack of criticism and promotion of choice isn’t being extended in this argument. If it were Hugo would be telling women across the board that they have absolutely no room to criticize men for watching porn. They aren’t the ones watching porn and so are in no position to criticize, and each man is free to choose… Read more »