Dr. Bill Cloke on how to recognize and treat porn addiction before it destroys your relationship.
Janet and Ben came in for couple’s therapy because she had caught him watching internet porn. He was looking at “Cheerleaders Gone Wild”: videos featuring girls who are barely 18 years old. To her it was a betrayal and tantamount to watching child porn. Ben for his part was unrepentant, describing it as his curiosity and nothing more. He claimed he was only doing it because she was withholding sex from him. Her trust was shattered and he was angry.
After the births of their three children, Janet was understandably exhausted. They had argued about the children and along with Ben’s career stress they had become estranged. But instead of talking about it they both went into their own worlds. Ben became career driven and withdrew into the privacy of his porn while Janet became Super Mom. Herein lies one of the thorny issues about porn: easy accessibility.
Online sex stimulates the production of dopamine, which interestingly enough is the addiction maker in the brain, but also is what makes men monogamous. So the very thing that creates a homebody can intensify the need for excitement through porn.
|
At this point I set about researching the consequences of porn addiction on marriage and families. It was an interesting ride and was much more serious than I initially realized. The internal effects seem to be very powerful and the parts of the male brain that porn gains access to are unconscious and rather insidious. Let me say as well that with porn—like any other addictive substance—the difficulty lies in how much one uses it and the extent that it shuts down sexual activity with one’s mate. Couples who participate in porn together can experience some excitement but it is rarely interesting for women. For those who participate in secret and to the degree that it constitutes an addiction, porn use is the primary issue in their relationships. The manner and intensity of one’s involvement in porn is relative to the degree of damage it can possibly cause in the sex life in a marriage.
Some of the conclusions I came to were these: The internet provides not only photos and videos but online relationships that involve specific sexual proclivities. Porn is a highly elastic business. Entrepreneurs produce media catering to every variety of sexual interest that exists in men’s brains. Online sex stimulates the production of dopamine, which interestingly enough is the addiction maker in the brain, but also is what makes men monogamous. So the very thing that creates a homebody can intensify the need for excitement through porn. Also, continued porn use tends to increase, and the need for new stimulation and the desire to find more intense stimulation leads to more provocative porn sites. Porn users can find more and more progressively exciting images until they find themselves immersed in a fantasy world that makes the real world pale in comparative intensity.
Porn is ultimately isolating. Its use is a turning away from one’s partner and toward a hyper exciting new experience that stimulates the production of dopamine, which both heightens stimulation and creates addiction. Some men begin to prefer online sexual relationships to real ones. The once attractive wife can become mundane and uninteresting. In contrast there is a constant parade of new women in a milieu that is designed to make men’s brains turn cartwheels in excitatory intensity. Porn use is further reinforced by orgasm. Look out Pavlov: online porn beckons and the sexual bell rings.
Some signs that someone may have an addiction to porn are:
- Increasing porn use despite negative consequences
- Denial of the problem
- Irritability toward spouse regarding internet porn
- Using porn to escape from relationship issues
- Lying to others about the importance of cybersex
- Engaging in illegal acts
- Preoccupation with internet sex
- Loss of intimacy with one’s mate. (Carnes 2001).
There are vast differences between how men and women view—or don’t view—porn. The vast majority of women tend to be more focused on the emotional aspects of sexuality like connection and love. Men tend to respond more strongly to the visual aspects of sexuality, such as being more easily stimulated by physical beauty. Men respond to physical variety, which is the mainstay of internet porn.
Because men are more focused on the physical than the emotional aspect of sex, men are more likely to think of cybersex as a safe way to be stimulated—no touch, no foul—while women see the experience as an act of infidelity. When the excitement of online sex exceeds that of a porn user’s real, live partner, the relationship is in trouble.
The use of internet porn is frequently a symptom of larger relationship issues that has have not been worked through. In the case of Janet and Ben there were many issues that had lain dormant in their relationship. They both failed to bring up the matters that bothered them and instead turned away from each other in different ways. As their distance increased, so did Ben’s interest in cybersex. Once Janet discovered the porn it only intensified her anger and resentment toward him, until they were no longer able to sustain their relationship. They were both responsible for waiting way too long to address their differences, but in the end porn extended the emotional and sexual divide beyond their reach.
Because cybersex affects relationships between mates, it also affects entire families and causes a myriad of internal issues. Wives feel unwanted, unable to compete with online images, degraded, stupid or weak. They may see their partner as a bad partner, selfish and like they are “living a lie.” Husbands are up late viewing images, become more moody, neglect the family, spouse, job and friends. They become distant and care less about the feelings of their wives and children. When it comes to addiction, secrecy and overuse are the culprits. If children discover their father’s porn use there is a tremendous loss of trust and respect. In relationships with our partners, the more things we don’t talk about, the more they will affect the overall sense of intimacy.
So how do couples work through this issue? First off, suspend the use or overuse of internet porn. Second, find the stimulation with your partner. If she is your go-to person for sex then it behooves both of you to do some ground work to create a satisfying sex life. Clear away the dead wood in your relationship. Don’t run from your problems: face them and work them out. Find things to do together that you both consider play, or fun activities. If all else fails, get some therapy.
In the most profound sense, a loving relationship will always trump mere stimulation. The challenge is to create a loving and connected relationship that stimulates sexuality. Be willing to get to a place where you can be alone with your partner, where the world goes away and you can be sexually close. The work of building the sexual relationship you want with your partner is worth the effort, because in the end, cruise control is a sweeter ride than going two hundred miles an hour on the drag strip of internet porn.
Read more on Sex & Relationships.
Conceptual photo of a young man addicted to the internet courtesy of Shutterstock
Much thanks! It is definitely an astounding web-site.
I’m really not in support of Pornography or anything related to it, though my spouse seem to find pleasure in staring at nude women and fantasizing. I got to find out later that he is a bit addicted to it and it breaks my heart to know that. Sometime ago, I found out he signed up to this particular dating site looking for ‘intimate online relationships’ with other women because we are both miles apart. I felt really heart broken and since then, I’ve not been able to trust him completely. I really try as much not to let it… Read more »
I gew up in an unhealthy household. I have all sisters and my stepfather wa the protector of us all. When I was young, too young, I witnessed my stepfather and the neightborhood cop exchanging porn in a dark corner on our porch. I remember think “why are they hiding?” As I got older it continued. Sometimes he would forget and leave Playboy or Penthouse in the bathrm. It ruined me. How could this man, who had 4 daughters, watch and partake in these images that made me feel like I was reduced to nothing more than body parts. It… Read more »
Why did you in particular feel that way from the magazines they read? I’m sure they still loved you, loved women etc and I have a feeling you know this. Having your life destroyed by it is on the extreme scale of what I’ve heard in reaction to porn, I believe you, but I am curious on what exactly makes it so damaging for you? Do you think he only saw them as body parts or did he see them as sexually attractive women, realized they had minds with their bodies n respected both?
I can relate PJ. It just feels disrespectful to know that the men in our lives like seeing women depicted and treated and stereotyped a certain way to fit into their fantasies. Sadly, it’s even more invasive today then it was for your father. But it seems like women are just commodities to be selled, exchanged and enjoyed for male pleasure. Women aren’t worth a heck of a lot in this world. Especially to a lot of men. sometimes even men that are fathers of daughters and husbands to wives.
Erin said “Especially to a lot of men. sometimes even men that are fathers of daughters and husbands to wives.” that’s what I just can’t understand. Why fathers would do that. that’s somebody’s daughter, Would these same men encourage their own daughters to become porn stars? To let themselves be “used” as an object. I just don’t get where the degrading and objectifing of ANY human being is healthy to watch or even fantasize about. Isn’t that the defination of pervert? As a man, I for one have always thought porn to be disgusting. I’ve always been very out-spoken about… Read more »
Dan, I’m trying to understand your position so please let me know if I’m wrong in my characterization. Why fathers would do that. that’s somebody’s daughter, Would these same men encourage their own daughters to become porn stars? To let themselves be “used” as an object. Do you see this as distinct from sons who become porn stars? Is there a difference between how you view Sasha Grey and James Dean? Is one used and the other the user, or are they both being used? I just don’t get where the degrading and objectifing of ANY human being is healthy… Read more »
It absolutely disgusts me when people imply a good man doesn’t watch porn. Most of my friends, male and female, watch porn. They’re good people. They’re not misogynists/misandrists, they believe in equality.
I seriously wonder if half the commenters here actually know people that look at porn or if they simply want to keep demonizing it as perverted. And in fact the majority of people in the west probably look at porn, so it’s not a perversion.
I thnk many good men watch porn. I think many men that love their daughters and love their wives look at porn. That doesn’t mean they are looking at things that are respectful to women. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t on some level disrespecting women. That doesn’t mean that it’s good to watch porn. Many good men do a lot of things everyday that aren’t so *good* all the time. That’s the nature of being a human being. The same can be said for women. Many good women make poor choices everyday. Many good women that love their husbands… Read more »
I dont’ disagree with you on the most part, people need to be mindful of the content they watch. I’ll say there are a few I think who look at respectful n decent porn with the consent of their partner, or their partner joins in as well and that wouldn’t be degrading to women in my view. But if they’re looking at something like brazzers/bangbus which isn’t in my opinion a decent porn production, then yeah it’s pretty degrading. If they’re looking at it behind the partners back that is another problem, and if they’re allowing it into their lives… Read more »
Btw, just in case you were wondering I was referring to a broad range of websites, blogs, opinion pieces, real life discussions on porn where SOME women have been pretty demonizing n quite frankly pretty damn confusing about male’s porn use. Some of the more extreme anti-porn views like those from the 70’s radfems? And I’ve even had a woman tell me that porn is rape? 2 consenting actors is rape, all porn is rape (including any porn I’ve ever made myself?). Boggles the mind.
My ex would stay up really late watching porn, whilst I would be in bed ready and willing to have sex with him, but he would then come to bed very late and try to have sex with me. Obviously I was resentful that he didn’t want to be intimate with me from the start, so that’s the reason I started to withhold sex . If you put no effort into being intimate with your partner before you even get to the bedroom, you cannot expect her to feel like having sex with you when you feel like it.
Did you tell him any of this or just hope he’d “get the message”?
I told him a couple of times..he chose to trivialise my concerns, so I stopped having sex completely and dumped his stupid ass!
Good for you!! If more women would stand up then maybe more men might “get it”.
Sorry you went through that. Some people get addicted and it’s a shame, especially when they don’t listen. There are other men n women who will look at porn even in a relationship but won’t be addicted, might be just a rare occurrence when you both can’t be together for some reason, many couples use it together even. But when a partner is being ignored and porn is the first priority it’s a hugeeee problem, it should never be first priority.
Interesting article, very interesting comments. I would just like to add that I am unaware of any aspect of pornography that emasculates a man.
Unless of course it is the isolation and lack of intimacy…………….
Penis size, restricted roles in porn, etc. Depends on the porn you watch though.
Like most things, it’s not what you do but the way that you do it. Ideally, the appropriate type of porn (not beastiality, violent, child etc) can be used communally to enhance a couples sex life. Women’s and men’s brains respond to pornography in a matter of time, more time for women, but its biological. The genders are hardwired differently but libido is not a matter of greater or lesser, just very different. It’s important to gauge your partners response to real sexual activity and not try to emulate porn, because depending on what you watch the reality of it… Read more »
“The genders are hardwired differently but libido is not a matter of greater or lesser, just very different.”
You’ll have a hard time selling that line to most men. My wife sure as shit had a greater libido when I married her. If she hadn’t, wouldn’t have. If I knew then then what I do know now….
Porm adds to your sex life = biggest lie ever, only spoken by guys addicted to porn, been there, studies prove, big fat lie.
Why is it ok for a woman to a use vibrator or other aids for sexual satisfaction and not ok for men to use porn for the same reason? In fact, many argue that it is preferred.
and what about women who watch porn too?? My gf watch porn and she likes to masturbate to it. Am i feel threatened? not a bit. I think its silly feeling jealous and threatened for porn stars. And my gf watch gay male porn, full of handsome and hot guys, but i dont care.
And how often are the guys being slapped , called disgusting names , depicted in tears and clearly disrespected . How many of the men are categorised into body parts , big boobs , small boobs , young , old , tall, short , blonde , brunette and it goes on and on In other words … There is simply no comparison to the way men and women And portrayed in porn Women are treated as objects 99 percent of the time !!! They are disrespected in a way men are not Therefore it’s absolutely no surprise that men have… Read more »
Why is it ok for a woman to a use vibrator or other aids for sexual satisfaction and not ok for men to use porn for the same reason? In fact, many argue that it is preferred. Not saying that either is wrong, but one involves real people while the other involves an inanimate object. It’s really difficult to compare the two. And it does all depend on the porn user as well. Some men can watch porn for visual stimulation and then never think about the woman again or even be able to recognize her if they saw her.… Read more »
If he wants to use porn when I’m not available, it’s the same thing–as long as he doesn’t see the women as real people, but masturbation tools. If he starts going to sites dedicated to some of them, comparing me to them, writing about it, hoping he meets these performers–that’s when it gets different. As pointed out already in the comments above, many people, like the author of this article, don’t seem to make that distinction between porn as a tool for masturbation, and a s a tool for infidelity. There’s no threat in a vibrator. A man is always… Read more »
actually, many women who too much using vibrator cannot orgasm with normal stimulation. Normal doesnt mean PIV, its oral, fingering. So how hard the man try making her orgasm with foreplay and not just penetration sex, she cant orgasm. The only way to orgasm is to bring the vibrator to bed. How do you feel if your men can only orgasm with bring porn to bed????
Well comment are welcome on this post…Imagine that the female isn’t witholding sex, that she is ready anytime, but the male is rarely ready. Everyday, even at work the male looks at porn, teens, many years younger than his 40 year old wife, whos kids are nearly grown. The wife finds him on “dating sites” both dating and hookup sites, looking for a discreet realtionship. All the while the wife is nearly begging the male for attention, so the male starts an argument everytime….and she still doesnt get sex(no make up sex EVER) This man and wife never french kiss,… Read more »
Go see a counselor together. Both could be at fault, maybe he was rejected over n over by her earlier and grew a resentment, maybe she’s been a real B to him before, maybe he is simply addicted to porn n real sex doesn’t interest him, maybe he’s lost love for her, maybe he’s depressed as hell, there are many possibilities and not all of them are applicable. It’s possible theyr’e both doing stuff they have no idea is hurting their partner, one example would be criticizing a partner over their worth, such as a wife who criticizes her partner… Read more »
Sounds like he doesn’t want to be with her but doesn’t want to leave. You could try a counselor, but a judge seems like the more likely end. Unless you don’t want to leave either. In which case… keep missing out on what you want or go for the “instant passion.”
Personally I’d get a divorce under those circumstances, unless my husband is willing to get marriage counseling and seriously works on the issues in the marriage, whatever they are. If the kids are grown, not much reason to stay married just for the sake of the family. Everyone deserves happiness. He’s obviously happy about something — maybe he has no physical attraction for his wife anymore. And she deserves to find someone who thiks she’s desirable.
Sorry, he’s obviously UNhappy
Actually he says he’s very happy and sexually satisfied…He has PTSD from 3 deployments, and says he looks at that the porn and other women to stop the monotiny of the marriage….but the therapist has said he doesn’t think he’s worthy of love and thinks the wife will leave or cheat…due to his childhood….. He doesnt show affection, nor does any of his brothers or sisters…his Mom left them for drugs, and left them with their alcoholic father….
WISH THE COUNSELORS GAVE AS MUCH FEEDBACK AS THEY DO ON HERE 🙂
Well, once again men are left holding the morality sexual bag when it comes to porn. Women, straight and lesbians, enjoy porn.Jenna Jamison, perhaps the most well known and paid porn star in the world, sells a plastic molding of her vagina online;talk about vagina monologue. Straight women, many of them married, go to watch hunky young guys at strip shows, a common occurrence,but are hardly ever mentioned in this morality context. Because of these obvious biases, it’s hard to take this kind of discussion seriously. Women depend on men sexually objectifying them,they crave the attention or haven’t you noticed… Read more »
Thank you for the balancing perspective. I have experienced this same phenomenon; there are some modern women who get off by turning men on while knowing they are going to brush them off; its the power play. Its not just men who do it. It may have been men who started objectification, but there is a definite part of the female psyche that enjoys male attention even if they are not actually planning on having sex. As a sensitive, emotional guy, I’ve been toyed with so much it makes me insecure, despite the fact I look like a rock star.… Read more »
I don’t think there’s an easy answer there. They say the mind is the biggest sex organ, so we get rid of mind games at our own peril. I think there’s a place for both blunt honesty and less direct seduction. But in the beginning, I think we’re mostly using the latter. For me, honesty is sometimes comforting and a source of certainty, but often boring. Maybe even clinical. Uncertainty is somewhat uncomfortable, but provides stimulation that feeds arousal and ultimately desire. I’m certainly not saying, make it an ego thing of proving who’s better. But, feeling wanted is good… Read more »
Let me say as well that with porn—like any other addictive substance—the difficulty lies in how much one uses it and the extent that it shuts down sexual activity with one’s mate. Couples who participate in porn together can experience some excitement but it is rarely interesting for women. For those who participate in secret and to the degree that it constitutes an addiction, porn use is the primary issue in their relationships
If their participation is the primary issue in their relationships, then it can hardly be a secret, right?
Yes, if it is affecting the relationship—the partner doesn’t have to know what the reason is in order to know that there is a problem.
If someone were having an affair and then retreating form his/her family because of the affair, the family wouldn’t have to know there was an affair in order to know there was a problem. Happens with drugs all the time, people think “something’s wrong here”
While I wish you acknowledged more of what I was saying about the way women can also feel rejected, I understand your points. There is a lot of pressure in our culture for women to be the object of desire John. Which is why women are used more often to sell products and why women are often the object focused on visually in porn. So I think a lot of women see men that gravitate toward mediums that is about making the woman the object of sexuality, that it’s easy to forget that men also want to be seen as… Read more »
Joanna said: “For women, it’s hard to understand that a man who isn’t getting sex often feels deeply unloved, undesirable, and disconnected. For many women, having a great conversation and hanging out watching TV together can connect them. I don’t know why there’s this difference, but we need to understand that even if what our partner needs is different from what we need, it is still legitimate and important. Without that understanding, marriages will (and do) fail.” Joanna, I strongly agree with this. It was a new discovery for me to learn that men can actually feel unloved and rejected… Read more »
I want to add that women always want to feel sexy and desired to have sex, but many of them dont realize that men also want to feel sexy and desired. If a man feel that they always the one who initiate sex, they need to beg and compromise to have sex, than he feel that his woman are simply not into it. If my partner are not really into it while having sex, i rather watch porn. Really, how many women say “youre hot, youre sexy” to their men? How many women initiate sex instead of thinking initiating is… Read more »
One thing these kind of stories say to me is that couples really need to make time and space for their sexual relationship even after they have children. I don’t have kids myself but I have dpent years listening to friends talk about their relationships. I think sometimes it’s hard for women to think of themselves as sexual beings after they become mothers. They get too caught up in being “Super Mom” – nurturing, wholesome, maternal. They don’t feel like hot, carefree, sexy young chicks anymore. They feel a cognitive dissonance. They feel too many demands physically and emotionally. Trends… Read more »
Sounds about right. I’m sure any generalization will be met with protests about exceptions, but while the situation you describe sounds common enough to almost be a cliché, I’ve hardly ever heard examples where the loss of libido after having kids occurred in men while the mother’s kept purring along full-steam. In other words, I see it as a pretty gendered problem, and a counterexample to claims that women’s sex drives are just as strong and consistent as men’s. I don’t think it’s an intentional thing or under conscious control, but diminished libido after kids seems as feminine a problem… Read more »
@Sarah Radford:
Very well said. Thank you! 🙂
An article that I disagree with almost in toto. Also very inaccurate, where porn and cybersex are used as if they were the same thing (they aren’t) and where no difference is made between watching porn and being addicted to porn. All the symptoms he describes (lost of interest in real life, incapacity to relate to family, late night on the computer with effect on job etc) are the ones of a serious addiction, but then the conclusion is that no men in a relationship should ever watch porn? What if they were never addicted in the first place, just… Read more »
I’d be curious to know if online porn “addiction” presents different symptoms than overindulgence in online gaming or online shopping.
To an extent, I don’t have a problem if my SO watches porn. While 98% of porn is not my cup of tea, I do enjoy erotic stories to get me going and stuff, so I understand how people sometimes need a little more variety. I can occasionally tolerate watching porn with my SO, but sometimes browsing through the stuff can completely turn me off if I find something just gross. The thing is, though, I’ve been reading erotic stories for several years to help my masturbating, and I wonder if reading those stories has increased my expectations for what… Read more »
“But instead of talking about it they both went into their own worlds. Ben became career driven and withdrew into the privacy of his porn while Janet became Super Mom. Herein lies one of the thorny issues about porn: easy accessibility.” Herein lies one of the thorny issues about Super Mom, easy approval. She’s applauded for being one and doesn’t need to make any excuses for not being his lover. Neglecting your husband has consequences. Shocking! Men like variety? And excitement? Must be porn’s fault! Feeling like I’ve been bait and switched into an utterly unsatisfying sex life couldn’t possibly… Read more »
Two articles on porn, though in different contexts, that I have been following in the last two days. I don’t think porn is morally wrong, but it can entrench someone in isolation. It can also be part of a couple’s adventures in fantasy, enriching their erotic connection. The main thing is that the partners respect each other. Intimacy is hard work, but in the long run far more rewarding than temporary thrills of solitary fantasy.
You know…the 21st century has seen a pernicious tendency to reduce our social and relationship problems to how far male brain chemistry deviates from a presumably more normative female brain chemistry. In doing so, we tend to reduce men to base creatures primarily responsive to their lower body needs while leaving the humanity of women fully intact (and sometime elevating). The whole analysis is dangerously reminiscent of the racial eugenics of the prior century. This approach is highly susceptible to relative bias, and needs to stop. For fun and illustration, we could use “gender eugenics” to re-frame the problem. We… Read more »
I’ve noticed the same thing, too. Glad to see I’m not going crazy all by myself…..
No doubt there are clinics being organized right now that will offer electroshock therapy to rid men of their deviant love of online porn. Perhaps we can bring back the days of the home-visit lobotomist? Maybe some court-ordered lobotomies as a condition of child visitation for the dads divorced because of porn use?
Just because a man looks at porn doesnt mean he would harm a child, his or anyone else’s
Agreed, but a little out of place as a reply to wellokaythen, who I think was just mocking the porn-causes-brain-damage theory with the line about court-ordered lobotomies for divorced dads who use porn.
Thank you, Dr. Cloke, for writing on this subject. Had I not experienced it, I would have never known that this increasingly common condition existed. My former husband admitted to having a porn addiction, not too long before he destroyed his computers and took his life. I don’t believe that all personality types are necessarily prone to this addiction, but it seems more men are becoming conditioned to online porn at earlier ages and problems are showing up with them not being able to have satisfactory sex with live women. What my husband presented to me as ED, I later… Read more »
Thank you for sharing this story, it’s devastating. I’m so sorry for your loss.
Addiction takes many, many forms and it can destroy a person’s life.
I am so sorry for your loss…
Monogamy does not create a homebody. It’s true that couples tend to become more attuned to each other than other people (that’s how couples establish a life together and a happy, loving family, if they choose to raise children). However, past the initial infatuation phase of a relationship, couples need to interact with the outside world. If someone is using monogamy to avoid the outside world, then they have a completely different set issues, besides porn addiction.
This is the same old porn-male-female diatribe. Yawn. Female and in my last relationship I was the person who wanted to watch porn more then my male partner. I’ve heard 2 out of 3 people searching for porn online are women or something close to that. The problem isn’t the porn-although largely what porn people have access to is crap. The problem described as above has to with the people in the relationships capacity to be honest about their feeling and needs, stress, dealing with control, intimacy and personal expression. This also takes the tone that men aren’t responsible, the… Read more »
I’ve heard 2 out of 3 people searching for porn online are women or something close to that.
i had read that for visual ppornn, around a third of viewers are women
The good doctor states that “The vast majorty of Women tend to be more focused on the emotional aspects of sexuality like connection and love.” 2 word answer, ‘Magic Mike’.
A marriage is supposed to be two people merged as one. If one feels porn is infidelity – then it is. BUT, what happened to the communication here. Why was this not discussed? Ben keeping secrets – first big mistake. Janet “withholding” sex? Why was this not discussed. “withholding” is a sure sign that something is already wrong in the relationship. Why would Ben think more self-sex was the answer?
Would you agree that if Ben feels romance novels is infidelity, then it is? Good for the goose and all…
And why do you think a marriage is supposed to be “two people merged as one?” Where does that idea come from?
If a guy thinks romance novels count as infidelity, then that needs to be discussed too. There are many shades of grey (wow, that wasn’t even on purpose!) in this discussion because of the wide range of sexual morality between people. Hence my earlier statement that ALL of this needs to be discussed early and often.
I agree, Joanna. Dan seemed to be suggesting that if the wife unilaterally decided that porn use = infidelity then that was valid, binding even. I would say that if you take that view of relationships, that spousal fiat is law, then it should be available to both partners. Hence if he decides that reading 50 Shades of Grey = infidelity, then it is.
But who would want to be in a relationship dictated by fiat rather than based in collaboration and trust?
Nick, I agree with your statement that if husband thinks “50 Shades of Grey” = infidelity, then it is. Each person gets to decide what infidelity means to them. There is a very wide range of meaning. But in marriage, each should respect the other’s opinion and NOT go behind their back and do what they want to do anyway. That is deception and IMO another form of lying. And, you nailed it about a relationship should be based in collaboration and trust. But the trust was broken by the porn, the lying, the deceiving. And I am not saying… Read more »
Who says they’re wrongs? That’s my whole contention.
When I think of cheating, for example, I have a simple definition: doing X when you’ve agreed not to do X. This definition makes space for the ability to cheat in monogamous and non-monogamous relationships alike.
I feel the same way about fidelity. Infidelity isn’t doing whatever your partner unilaterally decides constitutes infidelity. It’s violating the agreement you have made between you. An assumption that he won’t look at porn isn’t the same as an agreement.
“If one feels porn is infidelity – then it is”
I cannot agree with this statement. The feelings of one partner do not trump those of the other. That makes for a very unbalanced, and unhealthy, relationship. Besides, believing that porn is equivalent to infidelity is an initial emotional reaction. One that facts, reason, and some discussion can change.
When speaking regarding this article, this couple was married. In marriage, you make a vow, a promise, a contract. So in marriage – if one believes porn is infidelity – then it is. “Ben” know what he doing (watching porn) was wrong – hence the secrecy, the shame one his part. He was not faithful to his wife with his heart, mind, or body. He was in the wrong. Was she wrong to “withhold” sex? What was her reasoning on this? It is not reasonable to withhold sex for no reason. The article never said what the reason was.. As… Read more »
It doesn’t sound like such a clear fact that “Ben” chose porn over his wife. He says that his wife was withholding sex (it sounds like she was exhausted by raising three small children, too), and so he turned to porn. The couple should have discussed what they consider the terms of their vows of fidelity, along with other aspects of their sexuality, but it’s not a given that either masturbating alone or doing it with porn is cheating on your spouse.
@Dan:
Was she wrong to “withhold” sex? What was her reasoning on this? It is not reasonable to withhold sex for no reason. The article never said what the reason was..
That is one of the main problems with this subject, isn’t it?
You can’t have a discussion or an argument “in good faith” about this, because most anyone, like in this article, will believe that any woman “withholding” sex must by default have a perfectly good reason for it that is far beyond any discussion. Hence everything must always start at the “man being in the wrong” position.
I respectfully disagree with the idea that a committed relationship means that two people fuse into one. I think the healthiest, most sustainable kind of relationship still makes room for people to be distinct individuals, even while they’re part of a single team. Letting your partner’s feelings completely dictate everything you say or do is not a healthy relationship, in my mind, whether the dictating partner is male or female. Never doing anything that might possibly upset your partner is not a recipe for an adult relationship, not to me anyway. I had to search high and low, but I… Read more »
In the article the terms “porn” and “cybersex” appear to be used interchangeably. I’m wondering if a distinction was made between various types of pornography consumption, from watching of clips to interactive “cam girls” and so-called “cyber-affairs.” Was Ben engaged in an “online relationship” or was this discovery more of an aside and not germane to their particular case? Also, the question of what constitutes an infidelity deserves more treatment. What happens when two partners disagree on what is and isn’t an infidelity? To what degree should we expect to give up our personal sexual expression because we enter into… Read more »
Of the things that people need to discuss regularly throughout their monogamous relationships, porn usage is up toward the top in my mind. The thing is, many women feel betrayed by porn use, and many men feel that their porn use is 100% separate from their partner. Neither is right, neither is wrong. It’s like anything else in marriage that needs to be discussed and mutually determined what’s acceptable to the couple and what isn’t. She needs to understand that her not having sex with him is going to have consequences, and he needs to understand that him watching porn… Read more »
I think this is a very reasonable approach. Holy smoke, I was also glad and amazed to see a woman (and a wife!) write the following clause: “She needs to understand that her not having sex with him is going to have consequences,….” That makes total sense to me. I don’t think I have ever seen a woman write or heard a woman say anything like that before. It’s rare enough for a man to express that so clearly. This is something society really needs to look at and hasn’t much accepted yet. I can’t imagine a mother today saying… Read more »
It’s complicated, because I don’t think anyone should *ever* feel obligated to have sex, and certainly not forced to—even if the only reason they feel forced is the fear that their partner will cheat. And in saying “there are consequences” I don’t mean “if you don’t have sex with him regularly he’s justified to cheat.” I mean that there will be consequences of many flavors – be it a lack of intimacy in the marriage, increased porn usage, resentment, estrangement… And you’re right, it takes two for a relationship to be destroyed, and both partners need to be responsible for… Read more »
Absolutely, I don’t think “consequences” means “license to do whatever he wants,” either. I agree, there needs to be compromise and understanding on both sides. And, I don’t think people should be forced or compelled or guilted into having sex. I didn’t mean for my language to sound like “consequence” was the same as “punishment.” Even though to some women it looks like men will keep coming back over and over again looking for sex no matter what, or that men’s libido is unphased by anything, men can feel rejection really deeply. Shutting him down again and again when he… Read more »
For women, it’s hard to understand that a man who isn’t getting sex often feels deeply unloved, undesirable, and disconnected. [Emphasis added.] I agree a whole lot with the part in bold. I suspect the part about women finding it hard to understand is also pretty true generally, but my own experience might be causing me to underestimate women’s capacity for that kind of sexual empathy. That’s where the need for a conversation and mutual compromise comes into play—from both sides. She’s gotta be willing to reach out to her comfort level, knowing that he may end up frustrated. And… Read more »
I think if the situation is that alienating where such control issues are at play and individuals feel unloved and unheard then therapy is vital. Have the confrontations, actually be gut level honest, take action and deal with the issues. It’s painful as heLl but so is the alternative.
I actually didn’t say “beyond her comfort level”, I said “She’s gotta be willing to reach out to her comfort level” – thing is, there are these spiraling, snowballing feelings in many women who don’t want sex. it starts with, “I’m not feeling it” (often related to pregnancy, childbirth, nursing, or day-to-day motherhood), then he feels bad about himself or frustrated with his unmet desire, and she feels guilt for hurting and rejecting him. Then he feels guilt for pressuring her. Then everyone feels terrible and suddenly, after months (or years) of sex and physical intimacy being associated with guilt,… Read more »
I actually didn’t say “beyond her comfort level”, I said “She’s gotta be willing to reach out to her comfort level” I know – I was asking if that was intentional, because it doesn’t make sense to me the way you said it. Maintaining your comfort level isn’t a stretch, so it’s hardly a show of compromise to be “willing” to do it. I still think you mean something like “expand her comfort level” or “be willing to find a new comfort level”, because I don’t see how someone can be *willingly* staying somewhere below their comfort level, and then… Read more »
“Does this only go for sex stuff, or if he feels threatened by forms of entertainment or friends that he thinks she’s using as an emotional substitute for him, can he discuss which of those he’s okay with her using?” If this is happening, as I said in my earlier email, then they should seek support and actually deal with the issues at hand instead of picking one thing (her avoiding sex, him avoiding emotion) to turn into a pushmepullu dynamic. In a healthy relationship I’d think there’d be all levels of intimacy (from platonic touch to sexual touch to… Read more »
Sometimes people simply aren’t compatible. Unfortunately this isn’t always realized early on in the relationship, before kids and joint bank accounts are involved.
Yes, I know that. Therapy though can help the couple make that realization though, and help them part ways more amicably. Well, hopefully.
I have no problem agreeing with all of that, because you framed it as a matter of mutual responsibility and effort, and you’re talking about more than just porn use. That’s in contrast to what I perceived as a fairly 1-sided suggestion that what “they” needed to discuss was what she found okay for him to use within their relationship. I don’t doubt your sincerity when it comes to desiring full 2-way (or however many people are involved) communication, with responsibility and accountability all around. I don’t think that model or goal is all that common in the anti-porn debate,… Read more »
I think one issue may be the type of porn – in the example in the article, the wife was grossed out by the idea that her husband was looking at porn involving barely legal teenagers. I can see how that would be disturbing to her, especially if they had daughters reaching their teen years. Also, it probably makes her feel old and undesirable and that kills interest in sex with her husband. And when you are really grossed out by something, it’s a visceral response – I mean, she can’t really help how she’s feeling about it. I’d have… Read more »
Being turned on by something is also a pretty visceral response, but even if some of those turn-ons disgust you, the jump to “that’s what you’re looking for” seems unjustified to me. Watching porn isn’t looking for a mate. It’s a fantasy, and quite often one you’d have no interest in acting out, even if watching it turns you on. Kind of like how enjoying bank heist movies doesn’t mean you’re looking to rob a bank.
I just don’t get why people aren’t talking about all of it. I mean…these are long term/marriage situations we are talking about.
My guess is it’s because some people are terrible at talking about this stuff, which they often inherited from parents who were terrible at talking about it too. If even one person in the relationship fits that description, it’s hard to overcome.
I just don’t get why people aren’t talking about all of it. I mean…these are long term/marriage situations we are talking about. Because we’re scared. Who wants to have that conversation? Who wants to invite all that emotional turmoil? Who wants to push the issue to its end, to the possible dissolution of the relationship? If we’ve had a hard week, why would we make it harder by opening up that wound? Why have a fight about the lack of sex in the relationship, the resentment that’s building, when we can watch a porn clip, get off, and find a… Read more »
Yes. I get that. And in the meantime you have a divorce rate rising, heaps and heaps of pain upon discovering how much people have been pulling away from each other, using a wide variety of distancing techniques to limit connection instead of being honest and figuring out ways to either grow the relationship or end it in a way that would honor everyone in the ending. I’m not much for the whole “porn addiction” theory, but what I see in that paragraph above is that perhaps we are a country of avoidance addiction. We’ll use whatever it takes to… Read more »
Oh I’m quite sure you get it, Julie. I thought the question you posed was rhetorical.
I’m fairly pessimistic about improving things. It’s a cultural problem, one where our discourse doesn’t allow for much honesty in how we talk about relationships. We seem to prefer the safety of the fiction rather than risk being shamed and become outcasts.
It very well may change, and I applaud those such as yourself who are working hard to make that change, I just don’t expect it in my lifetime.
I’m actually in a relationship where I generally have a higher libido than my boyfriend, which is quite frustrating for me. So I can relate to what men go through. I have struggled a lot in the relationship with feelings of being undesirable and unattractive because in all my previous relationships, things were completely different. I’m used to the man being all over me for sex all the time. It’s hard not to think that it’s my fault or that it’s because I’m older now and not as attractive to men as I used to be. We have talked about… Read more »
@Sarah Radford “…but it is really hard to get my head around the idea that a normal man can be happy with sex only once or twice a week, which is my boyfriend’s preference.” I sympathize and it’s reassuring to hear that it’s not always the man stuck with the higher side of a libido mismatch, but from what I’ve experienced, read, and heard, it’s fairly common for that sentiment to change after motherhood to it being hard to wrap her head around the idea that a normal father would still be in the mood for sex at least once… Read more »
I don’t have kids but actually my libido has diminished a bit as I’ve gotten older. I used to want sex every day, which now seems exhausting. Maybe other women start at a lower baseline. I don’t know, sometimes I think I’m just an oddball or a weirdo for a woman. I used to feel a lot of shame about my sex drive — I thought it was too strong, unfeminine, even bizarre. I thought women weren’t supposed to like sex. That’s what I heard growing up. I thought Inwas supposed to want candles and romance and holding hands. I… Read more »
@Julie Gillis:
So what, in your opinion (or anyone’s) would help create pathways to more empathy and compassion and connection (even if it ultimately means ending a relationship on mutual and honorable terms and even given the pain) rather than letting years of resentment and frustration build up to a nasty divorce (which still includes lots of pain)?
It takes time, trust, and patience.
Unfortunately, we live in a culture that for a long time has promoted self-interest, superficiality, instant gratification and quick-fixes.
So. I’m not very optimistic…
Yes, I think that communication about what is acceptable to one another in life and in general (not just porn) is necessary. As far as the hierarchy of “badness” goes, it should be discussed. I know a marriage where the husband says that if there was no penis or vagina involved, it wasn’t cheating – for both of them. Other marriages demand much more conservative boundaries. And as far as non-sex things go, yeah, that should be discussed, too. For instance, Ivan just got a motorcycle. I’m not a fan. He had one when I first got pregnant and then… Read more »
Fair enough. And Ivan’s right about you having to slowly hack your arm off after falling into a crevice. I saw it happen in a movie.
I wonder if there are any brain experts or relationship experts out there sounding the alarm about the danger that motorcycles pose to our relationships. Here is an unprecedented technology that is changing our brains in ways that our Stone Age ancestors never had to deal with. This isn’t your great grandfather’s bicycle. This is way more extreme, totally inhuman, with a more intense high. How many more marriages have to be destroyed by this insidious creation before we do something about it? How many more families are going to be ruined before men take responsibility for their behavior? When… Read more »
“However, it is the responsibility of the woman to do the work she needs to do to get to a place where she can engage in some level of physical intimacy. ”
and
“If she can take some ownership over helping her libido rebound, at least she’ll know that she did her best.”
Eminently sensible. If only every approach to marital sex issues could be like this, we’d save a lot of agro. (And, yeah, same goes for cases in which a wife is frustrated by her husband’s lack of libido.)
Of the things that people need to discuss regularly throughout their monogamous relationships, porn usage is up toward the top in my mind. There are so very many things, including monogamy itself. I recall a survey recently (unfortunately I couldn’t find it to link here) that found couples didn’t even agree on whether or not they were in a monogamous relationship. The thing is, many women feel betrayed by porn use, and many men feel that their porn use is 100% separate from their partner. Neither is right, neither is wrong. It’s like anything else in marriage that needs to… Read more »
Exactly. But using porn also has it’s consequences. As in brain damage, relationship damage, objectify another human being. Sex is about two people. Self sex is only one. Sex is about loving someone else, not yourself. Although we are animals with a sex drive, we are also human beings with a brain to use and not abuse. Pornography is just wrong on so many levels.
Masturbation isn’t self abuse. It’s a healthy practice. Like Dr. Cloke says in his article, you can get addicted to the easy stimulation of porn, but the same is also true of the easy stimulations of gambling, gin, or chocolate cake. We’re supposed to take risks, have sex, and even seek altered states. It’s when we keep pressing that pleasure button in denial of all other experiences that we turn away from life and into addiction.
So many assertions, so little supporting evidence.
Pornography may be wrong to you on so many levels, but that’s about your values and preferences.
But to claim that it leads to “brain damage” is beyond the pale. I won’t even ask for supporting evidence for that assertion because I’m quite sure there isn’t any.
Speaking of brain damage… what have you been watching lately?
Hooray for generalizations about porn. Porn can be addictive to some, but not everyone. There’s some things wrong with porn but for many it is a medium they use for masturbation and remains quite healthy for them.