This is a comment by KKZ on the post “Lap Dance Anxiety“.
“”I don’t think it’s fair to say that men go to the strip clubs with this idea of “Oh yay, I get to objectify me some women with no consequences.” The objectification is not the draw, nor the primary reason they’re there. And it’s not the objectification that bonds them.
“The draw, and the reason this is a bonding thing for them, is that the strip club environment is designed with the men’s desires in mind. No feminist agenda. No being told how to behave (aside from the club’s rules), no being shamed for giving these women sexual attention or for wanting sexual attention back. Out in the real world, they get pummeled with the message that male sexuality is insatiable and dangerous, they should be ashamed of themselves for it, and they must police their actions around women at all times if they don’t want to be labeled as misogynistic creeps (or worse, falsely accused of wrongdoing) just for letting their gaze linger too long on a nice pair of boobs.
“In the strip club? The women are eager to please. They don’t put up so many barriers to sexual attention—they invite it. Here it is safe to be a sexual man, to ogle and gawk and comment and catcall, without fear or shame. You’d think that men who go to these places do it for greedy, selfish, objectifying reasons—“Here’s my chance to treat women how I *really* want to treat them.” I’m sure some men probably have this attitude. But I get the impression that for a lot of men, it’s more about relief and relaxation in an inviting, nonjudgmental environment, than it is about intentionally breaking the rules of how they’re supposed to behave because they secretly want to break those rules all the time.
“I think the stigma we still have around sex gives us this idea that the sexual appetite is dirty and wrong, and any act/profession/image etc. meant to satisfy that appetite, outside the bonds of a committed relationship, is also dirty and wrong. But, as has been written here before, it’s an appetite just like any other. It’s like having a sweet tooth – you know that if you indulge this appetite too much and too often, it will not turn out well for you. But every now and then you have to cave and order that molten chocolate lava cake. There’s an appetite for it that demands satisfaction – no, you won’t die if you don’t get to eat that cake, but it sure will make you feel oh-so-good for just a fleeting moment, right? And it doesn’t make you a bad person to eat your cake and satisfy that craving every once in a while, especially if you are otherwise vigilant about keeping your sweet tooth in check. What’s more, society understands the sweet tooth and provides an abundance of options for satisfying it. You’re not judged for wanting sugar, that’s totally normal!
“It’s only because we view the sexual appetite as dirty and wrong that seeking to satisfy it is also considered dirty and wrong. I don’t see much difference between occasionally breaking the rules of your diet for some sweet, sweet cake, and occasionally breaking out of the restrictive rules of ideal and equal gender relations for some sexy, sexy ladies.”
Photo credit: Flickr / the_toe_stubber
“Men like strip clubs because they aren’t being told how to behave, or being shamed for their sexuality.” – Not true. They like strip clubs because it is exciting, enticing and arousing. All these dancing flesh arouses a heady feeling. As for the men being pummeled in the real world with messages of sexual desire being wrong, an over-generalization. You must understand, there are situations that sexual appreciation is not desired by the one being appreciated, just like a cat don’t always want to be hugged and cuddled. The person being admired is a person and has their own thoughts… Read more »
I just want to add that if my partner did go to strip clubs–I’d WANT him to objectify the strippers. I don’t want him wondering about their personalities or hobbies or lives. I’d rather they just be bodies and curves and holes providing a service that’s nothing more than a transaction. Hopefully, he’ll forget they ever existed as soon as he left. I don’t want the sexuality to be associated with any type of actual intimacy.
I understand your point but I find it weird, can he have a basic interest like I do for strangers in their life? I am ok with my partner looking at male strippers, female strippers, getting to know them AS friends, being curious about their personality as long as it doesn’t go as far as being truly intimate and being a real threat to our relationship. Basically look, don’t touch, don’t get involved. If they want a lapdance…I dunno, that might be a bit too much? If I had a partner I wouldn’t want a lapdance but I dunno if… Read more »
Because tone does not come across in writing, I’m putting the disclaimer here that I ask the following with genuine interest, not judgement: Does it make you uncomfortable if your partner has intimate relationships with other women, by which I mean takes an interest in their personalities and hobbies and lives, in a non-sexual context? I.e., Are you comfortable if he has platonic female friends that he is very close with? Is it the double-whammy of intimacy and sexuality in a stripping context that would bother you? I’m just curious because I’ve seen variations of your statement here from others… Read more »
Yeah that’s a good point and I kind of agree, if my boyfriend went to a strip club, I don’t want him developing an emotional relationship with a dancer and then finding out he’s been secretly buying her gifts and sending cute text messages and fantasizing about an actual relationship with her. I’d rather he see them as kind of 3D porn images and nothing else.
Strip clubs ARE based on shame. I’m not ashamed of my sexuality, and wouldn’t waste my money. If I’m not going to make love to a woman, I don’t want her to strip for me. I do like non-sexual nude settings (probably even sexual ones, but I haven’t tried that.) When these clubs disappear, it’ll be a good sign. But the rest of society will need to become more erotic for that to happen. I believe that currrent repressive feminism may have contributed to bringing back these repressive institutions (like strip clubs.) Read Marcuse’s Eros and Civilization for why they’re… Read more »
Hank, thanks for sharing your point of view. I admit I have not run across many men who would turn down the chance to see a woman naked even if he wasn’t going to make love to her; yours is an interesting perspective. And I would agree with your statement about the repressive aspects of feminism giving rise to more strip clubs. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction; for every effort made by feminists to influence men’s behavior, there will be an effort on behalf of men to escape this influence.
PhilipDeal:
“I guess it’s because I like women.”
I would say that you go to clubs because you like womens bodies, though not necessarily the women themselves. I think men who hate women could easily go to strip clubs. They could easily like T&A but think women are beneath them. However, I’m wondering if some men dont differentiate between the two sometimes.
Alice… really? I would like to tell you where to go put that but I do not want to loose my privileges to comment. And I know there is nothing shameful about being a stripper if that’s what you choose to do. Oh and by the way? What’s wrong with liking women’s bodies I don’t know? Fickled you are.
Well Alice, you gotta start somewhere right? So far, based on what you’ve written (presumeable a reflection of your mind) vs. KKZ’s writing (a reflection of her mind), I’d rather spend time with KKZ. Veronica, the stripper above, also seems somewhat less interesting to hang out with than KKZ due to her protestation of feminish bona fides. See how that works? I actually determined which of the three of you were more interesting and approachable based solely on your characters as expressed through your written words. Believe it or not, men do the same thing with respect to women with… Read more »
Why must a woman’s body and her inner mind and soul be so divided? I have trouble understanding this. My body is as much a part of who I am as my college degree, my career, my political beliefs, my spiritual beliefs, my accomplishments, my failures, and my flaws. I have a page-a-day calendar on my desk with images from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Today’s image is “Christ Carrying the Cross” by El Greco. I can look on this painting and enjoy its aesthetics without knowing anything about El Greco, about Christ, about why the artist chose this subject… Read more »
Your arguments are faulty. Its very ridiculous. Its like saying your finger nail is your whole body. Looking to a finger nail of you is just as good as looking to the whole you. A thing might be a part of you, but a part of you is not you! What makes you You is the whole combination of parts of you. Well, to take it further, I’ll give an example. Remember BTK? BTK – bind-torture-kill is a very famous notorious serial killer. That’s an aspect most people know. But before his secret identity is out, many people respected him.… Read more »
I just want to pipe in that I love going to the strip club because I like to drink while watching beautiful nude girls dance. I like to go with my friends both male and female and I like getting lap dances. I guess it’s because I like women. I don’t think a women hating men go to strip joints, I think they are all in church and handing out flyers for Mitt Romney. Plus all of my friends are exotic dancers so I go to tip them and support them just like I go tip and support my gay… Read more »
I am a dancer and I hate to break it to you but men who hate women do frequent strip clubs, but fortunately for me they are in the minority.
This was a very insightful and thoughtful article KKZ. Thanks for taking the time to see things from the male perspective. Luckily the notion of empathy for the male gender role strictures continues to catch on with a lot of women.
I hope this trend continues. It’s a hell of a lot better than hearing my (or other men’s) problems don’t matter because…….male privilege (or patriarchy yeah that’s the ticket).
Thanks, John D. Not to sound all holier-than-thou but I’ve been studying Buddhism on and off for years and lately have become pretty intensely focused on the concept and application of compassion, which in the Buddhist view should be extended to all living things, human or not, male or female, ally or enemy, friend or stranger. I’ve been making a conscious effort to walk the talk, and one of my starting points has been to try to peek behind the cloth of the mainstream feminism I had come to know and try to better understand men and the issues they… Read more »
“Feminists have long been asking men to examine and adjust their thinking about women; my personal definition of feminism asks me to do the same in my thinking about men, instead of assuming I already know all I need to know about them.”
Where can I order more of this kind of feminism? I’d like to order several cases. Can we make this kind go viral somehow?
Well, I’ve been practicing it for years.
Yay! Now, I just need to get you to take the place of my colleague who teaches Women’s Studies with a very different sort of feminism. Would you be willing to take over the campus Women’s Center as well? (Also a very different sort of feminism.)
Hahahahahahaha that’s hilarious. 🙂
I don’t suppose you would be up for some cloning would you?
In all serious though there are feminists there that are doing it right but those loud mouth incorrect ones are f’ing it up for everyone.
Well, I’m glad you like and approve of my vision of fem inism, but unfortunately I’m a poor excuse for an activist, or an evangelist. I try to do well by my ideals in the scope of my own life, but I’m not a “bring it to the masses” kind of person, unless you count commenting on TGMP all day 😉
Excellent points as usual, KKZ.
I slot “objectification” in with “privilege” and “patriarchy” as terms that indicate all rational thought has stopped.
The moment you started getting huffy about “feminist agenda” is the moment you lost this reader. I’m a feminist and a stripper. See if you can write this again without the obvious disdain for your definition of a feminist. And the reasons you describe for why men go to strip clubs? They’re all about objectifying women. You’d be a better man if you could own up to that and then describe why that’s important to you.
I’m sorry I offended you. It probably wasn’t clear from my original comment since it didn’t appear with my photo, but I’m a woman. I’m also a feminist – a sex-positive, egalitarian feminist, if I need to specify. But I believe I can call myself a feminist and still point out how some aspects or attitudes of feminism can be harmful or stifling to men. In my observation, a lot of the language demonizing men for their sexuality comes out of feminist circles; it’s relatively rare among feminists to see an abundance positive, affirming language about male sexuality, there’s generally… Read more »
I think your hypothesis is a very good one, and it shows a lot of understanding. I also think your hypothesis is perfectly compatible with feminism, though maybe not all forms of it. I’m guessing for many men the strip club feels like a much *simpler* place. There, the interaction with women that he’s attracted to is more direct and straightforward. There’s still some negotiation and perhaps some game-playing, but much less than in the rest of the world. Some people might think of this as being lazy or giving up making an effort or being afraid of a “real… Read more »
I thought practically everyone was against cat calling women. I’m not sure what that term means. I think however that we should probably live in a world where its okay to be random and expressive toward strangers even in a sexual way. So in that sense I am pro cat-calling.
I’m sensitive to noise, so in an open marketplace of catcalls, I would request some sort of decibel maximum. And please be specific so I know whether you’re talking to me or not. I don’t want to thank you for comments about my ass if the comment wasn’t meant for me. I hate that awkwardness….. : – )
I don’t think that this stuff is real male sexuality any more than porn is. It’s almost as though we erect (no pun) a fake sexuality (commodified) on purpose (many of us agreeing on how it should be fake – strangely.) Oh you want more eros? Take anal and facial ejaculation (or bustiers) then. To me, these things are actually anti-erotic.
I think what you have to keep in mind is that even in an ideal world where you could be open and expressive about your sexual attraction to random strangers, there is no guarantee that those strangers won’t be disgusted, angry, and turned off by your attention. Their feelings would be as valid as yours and in a perfect world, they would also be free to express their revulsion openly. So openness is a doubled edged sword….
That is a very good point.
In response again to KKZ: Clearly I don’t have any problem with strip clubs. But you can’t deny that people go to them to look at women as bodies on a stage. So while men or anyone else may not consciously think “Hey, I think I’ll go objectify some women today” they’re probably also not thinking, “Hey, I think I’ll head over to the strip club to meet new people and learn about who they really are.” I put would put strippers in a similar category as bartenders or similar service providers. They’re there to make you feel good. And… Read more »
I don’t think going to a strip club to see a woman strip is objectifying, you can still see them as a human. I think it CAN be when people only value them for their body though. I think there is a mix of men and women who will visit strip clubs, some will objectify, and others will simply look but still be respectful and see them as a human who is naked and not an object who is ONLY sexual. “And I wish the “good” men would pipe up more often in a positive manner, rather than complaining about… Read more »
Wow, Archy, great thoughts and well said! And thank you for the support. Vanessa, I’d like you to look at two different things you said in the same comment. “There are certainly misandrists out there, but that’s not the same thing as fem inism.” “So while I agree that all men shouldn’t take the rap for the dou chebags, the dou chebags can’t be ignored either.” Well, I agree that misandrists are not representative of ideal fem inism, but misandry and misandrists can’t be ignored, either. And when men point out misandry, many many femi nists of all stripes come… Read more »
Thank-you, I wish more feminists could read it to understand where so many anti-feminists come from. The hypocrisy and chop n changing rules muddy it all up soooo much, I never know which version of feminist I’m talking to or reading at first look. I usually have to ask (which means I may end up triggering the whataboutthemenz insults) or read them for quite a while to see if they discuss male topics. I wish they’d just use labels like egalitarian feminist or gynocentric, it’d make it a lot easier to avoid all the derailing and fighting that goes on!
The word “feminism” just isn’t as cool as it used to be in academic circles, even among people who are deeply sympathetic feminist ideas. For the past decade or so in cultural studies, gender studies, cultural history, etc., the trendy thing has been to de-center and pluralize everything as a way to challenge people’s assumptions. Slap an “s” on the end of just about any noun and you sound a little more sophisticated. For example, you’ll see a lot of papers presented at conferences that speak of “feminisms” instead of “feminism.” In the same way, there are racisms, sexisms, imperialisms,… Read more »
You’re on the right track, wellokaythen – the divergence you allude to is partially why we have labels like First Wave, Second Wave and Third Wave femi nism, all identified by slightly different values, agendas and approaches. It feels to me like there’s a Fourth Wave developing that seeks to reconcile some of the disparities among the other waves – a pro-sex, egalitarian movement (or maybe I just say that because that’s what I personally want to see). But the waves all overlap and bleed into each other, there are still living breathing Second-Wave fem inists who still believe in… Read more »
Just out of curiosity, I noticed in your message that there was always a space in the word “feminist.” It looked like “fem inist.” Is that on purpose, or is that some kind of typing glitch?
Vanessa, thanks for your thoughtful response. You make some good points. My hypothesis wasn’t meant to be all-encompassing, hence me trying to say “some men” and “in my observation” etc. as often as I could. I agree there are d-bags out there, and you can probably speak to that better than I can; I’d imagine you have to deal with them pretty frequently. But I also sympathize with the Good Men who have to live in the shadow of these d-bags (I’m not sensitive about cursing, people, I’m just trying to avoid the auto-mod). and who are treated as though… Read more »
[Admittedly, some generalizations here. I’m saying many, not all.] I’ve noticed that when many women who aren’t strippers talk about women who are, the sentiments expressed are not really about sympathy for the less fortunate, empathy for those with fewer options, or a sense of feminine solidarity. Maybe in the abstract, but when they meet or talk about an actual person, it can be pretty hostile, even hateful. When many women think about the men they know going to a strip club, they don’t think “oh, those poor women being oppressed.” More often they think about “those trashy sluts” threatening… Read more »
Why can’t it be a very uncomfortable combination of both?
Good point. It can be both. People don’t have to be consistent. Or it could be there’s a visceral, emotional reaction that’s different from a political, ideological thought.
Obviously people can hate someone and try to help the person at the same time. There’s charity work out there that’s like that.
Well, yeah.
wellokaythen, I am a stripper and you are right on the money.
Like Julie says, my reaction to my boyfriend/husband would be a combination of both. One the one hand, I’d feel threatened because I know I’m not as young and physically attractive as a stripper, so I would wonder if he’s tired of our relationship or thinking about cheating. I realize those feelings might or might not be accurate, but I am just admitting that my first thought would probably be to blame myself for not being sexy enough to keep him entertained at home. I would feel pretty sh!tty about myself. At the same time, I’d also think about issues… Read more »
KKZ, I think you did a great job with this article, and I also agree with Vanessa when she says that the stigma that women who are strippers carry is more severe than that of men frequenting these joints. I used to frequent a strip joint back when I was single because it was nice to get a drink after a hard night’s work, see beautiful girls perform, and maybe -just maybe- carry on a conversation with one of them without worrying about all the complex restrictions and requirements society imposes on both sexes before considering the other. Now, I’m… Read more »
“Clearly I don’t have any problem with strip clubs. But you can’t deny that people go to them to look at women as bodies on a stage”
I think you are wrong. I did not go to strip clubs to see woman as bodies. You are also wrong when you say men don’t go to meet human beings. I think you would be a much more successful stripper if you had a more nuanced and more generous understanding of men’s sexual desires and motivations.
I wasn’t crazy about strip clubs as a younger guy. Why pay to see something I ought to be finding on my own for free? Being older, I’m ok with them and enjoy them. I accept that I’m never going to see/touch a lovely naked 19-year old unless I pay for the privilege. Going with other guys was always a so-so part of it when I was younger. It was ok to have company if we were so drunk it was all just a raucous mess. If we weren’t it was kind of awkward. Being older, I just go by… Read more »
“I think the stigma we still have around sex gives us this idea that the sexual appetite is dirty and wrong, and any act/profession/image etc. meant to satisfy that appetite, outside the bonds of a committed relationship, is also dirty and wrong.” – Everything you are saying here is essentially correct and needs to be said and often. Although, I wish I could enjoy strip clubs in the simple manner with which you imply that they are enjoyed. Male sexuality can consist of physical desire and it can consist of emotional connection love making, etc. The neglected middle is where… Read more »
Then you’ll be happy to know I’m presenting an essay containing the same essential message to a class of mostly women and a few men tomorrow evening. 🙂 And though I didn’t touch on this in my original comment (my first C.o.t.D., woot woot!), I agree with you about male sexuality being multifaceted and not just about visual/physical stimulation – and very interesting about the study findings! I do think some men can find a level of emotional/personal intimacy with a stripper (and from what I’ve heard, a small number of men get very attached to their favorite dancer). It’s… Read more »
A strip club isn’t necessarily a place where male sexuality is celebrated and honored without shame. Ideally it would be, but in practice there is probably still some “pro-shame” messages floating around in some places. Any reference to a woman being “naughty” in some way, or setting up men in a voyeuristic position, or celebrating tackiness for its own sake, can tap into that whole shame thing. Shame and guilt about sex can be used by sex workers to make the experience more intense. It’s like you’re allowed to get away with it, but still reminded that you’re getting away… Read more »
Yeah, I agree – strip clubs are no male-sexuality utopia, but still better than the alternative, at least for some men. The shame – well, the strip club industry does capitalize on it, I’d agree with that too. They know they’re a guilty pleasure for their patrons. There is appeal, for some people, in knowing you’re doing something naughty, something you’re not supposed to do – the whole “you know you want it” thing is a pretty tried and true marketing strategy. It’s used to get women to drop hundreds on shoes and clothes that really aren’t worth their price… Read more »
Seeing nudity is nice, what can I say.