This comment is from That Guy in response to “A Reader Responds to Chris Brown Post“
I’m glad the article at least mentions some famous cases of female-on-male domestic violence, e.g. Lisa Lefteye Lopez. (I don’t think Rison’s mansion actually burned down, but she did torch it in anger.) I don’t recall much outrage in the media about the death of Steve McNair or Phil Hartman. Granted, these were two different scenarios, but both were victims of types of domestic violence. I don’t recall much discussion about violence against men when it became clear that Elin Woods attacked Tiger Woods with a golf club. I’m guessing the main sentiment out there was that they deserved it somehow, or in Hartman’s case it’s a shame there’s not more support out there for mental health problems.
The ethics have started to flip. A century ago, a husband could often get away with killing his wife if she was unfaithful to him. I think most of us would say that’s reprehensible, that it’s outrageous that infidelity could be an excuse for murder. Totally barbaric. Now, however, the sentiment towards men who cheat is that violence seems perfectly reasonable. During the Clinton sex scandal, someone asked Dick Army what would happen to him if he had cheated. He joked that he would be lying a pool of his own blood, with his wife standing over him asking how she can reload the gun. That sounded really wise and comical at the time, but if you think about it, that’s not all that funny.
Maybe one solution is to stop using the phrase “domestic violence” as if it were some totally different kind of activity than other crimes. The phrase seems to have gendered overtones built into it, but assault is assault. Attempted murder is attempted murder. Murder is murder. Arson is arson. Why not refer to an alleged murderer as an alleged murderer, no matter what the sex of the person is? We already have all the gender-neutral terms we need. Let’s start using them, because they’re pretty accurate already. Hartman and McNair were murdered.Tiger Woods was assaulted. Andre Rison was a victim of arson. Why is that so hard?
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photo: mike_nelson / flickr
I think, what we need is a clear process on how to treat/face domestic violence. We have processes for murder, homicide, burglary, child abuse, etc. but almost none for domestic abuse and that I think causes confusion, stereotypes and sexism to appear.
I see where the author is coming from, but it’s not quite so simple as “just call it assault.” One problem with seeing it only as assault is that “domestic violence” also covers things that are not necessarily illegal. For example, a mutual fight between/among people living in the same house. The phrase could also cover the use of force in self-defense (also not illegal), although that’s not a connotation that most people associate with the phrase. My view: “Domestic violence” is literally the use of force within a household or residence or within a “domestic” relationship, however “domestic” is… Read more »
While there are definitely some problems with the way that the law treats dv, it is still a useful term. Domestic Violence very often involves a host of problems other than assault such as emotional abuse, stalking, and battered woman syndrome. These problems make it extra difficult to intervene in, and some would say extra abhorrent. For instance, dv is one of the most dangerous calls a police officer can get. Special dv training can help police stay safe (and see past gendered stereotypes). Dv is also difficult to handle in court, because the accusers safety is often compromised, but… Read more »
Emily writes: “For instance, dv is one of the most dangerous calls a police officer can get. Special dv training can help police stay safe (and see past gendered stereotypes).” Actually in many states the reverse is true. The Office on Women’s Violence has a $550million budget. Most of this is for working with police departments and prosecutors to enact A) mandatory arrest protocols (if police are called in for domestic disturbance somebody is going to jail) B) primary aggressor laws (which state IN TOTAL DISREGARD of all credible studies that most DV is male perpetrated and if women are… Read more »
Assault is assault for the purpose of defining the conduct as regardless of motivation or who the victim is, the State still needs to prove the same elements to get a conviction. However, domestic violence is a distinct form of violence and a factor that adjusts the nature of the sanction imposed upon conviction and is therefore a valid sub-category within the class of crimes called assault. While I agree that the term should be gender neutral I do not agree that there is no difference between an assault between drug dealers and an assault upon as spouse. This is… Read more »
In a way I agree and in a way disagree. When it comes to violence we do need to start using clearer terms. Domestic violence as a term is understood nowadays mostly so, that man is the offender. In Finland we use term “violence in close relationships” and that covers not only married/dating couples but siblings, children and parents etc. I think we do need a term for that, because the violence does become even worst (and it’s effects), when offender is someone you should be able to trust and someone you feel you should know. It also changes the… Read more »
Katri writes: “Domestic violence as a term is understood nowadays mostly so, that man is the offender.” Katri: do you mean that the definition is gendered (man=assailant, women=victim) so therefore it’s impossible for investigators to see male victims, or do you men that men are IN FACT the majority of those who assault in relationships? Because the evidence is that women initiate relationship violence just as much as men. And in terms of psychological manipulation and coercive control women are 50% more likely to do those. I disagree that very minor pushes or slaps when the victim wants the charge… Read more »
@ThatGuy… Hello again. In response to your post… I put assault in quotes just as a reference to your original post stating “assault is assault”. There wasn’t much thought behind it. My goal was not to disagree with your post… I do understand your point about gender-neutral language. However; I do believe that an assault against a random person on the street and between two intimate partners (male or female) is something quite different. In my experience and education, there are many more and/or different factors to consider in domestic violence cases then in a general assault case. Maybe the… Read more »
Because statistically men “assault” women at much higher rates an with greater power. Yes it deserves to be separate. Curious if this writer has ever been affected by DV in his own life or had a woman in his life be affected by it…doubtful. Otherwise he would see the importance.
Me again. I think this message is meant to disagree with me, but I’m failing to see how and why. I’m not sure why “assault” is in quotes if the point is that men assault women in domestic situations more than the other way around. I bet that’s true. My point is that those men are assaulting those women. The phrase “domestic violence” is a somewhat sanitized phrase that makes it sound like it’s nobody’s business because it’s inside the house or inside the relationship. But, I don’t see why assaulting someone you’re married to and/or live with and/or have… Read more »
According to what statistics? Because there are a considerable number of them that strongly indicate parity in domestic violence victimization between men and women.
Personally I know both male and female victims of domestic abuse, and I don’t use that term lightly. If women genuinely are the greater proportion of victims (and I don’t agree that you’re in any position to say so) so be it. That doesn’t excuse ignoring the remaining male victims. DV is DV and a plate thrown to the face from the person you loved enough to marry doesn’t hurt any less than a punch. I doubt you know any of the men affected by this issue or you wouldn’t be saying this. Rather, to be more accurate. they’re afraid… Read more »
Chris Writes: “Because statistically men “assault” women at much higher rates an with greater power. Yes it deserves to be separate.” All of the credible research for the last 20 some odd years shows that women attack as often as men do. Per this study: http://lab.drdondutton.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DUTTON-NICHOLLS-AND-SPIDEL-2005-FEMALE-PERPETRATORS-OF-INTIMATE-VIOLENCE.pdf The largest predictor of women’s injury in DV is her own violence. Nobody seems to recall that Chris Brown says he was attacked by Rihanna first and retaliated. I think it’s interesting that when men attack women, the emphasis is on who attacked FIRST and the woman is even entitled to use deadly force.… Read more »
And that catch-22 starts early in life. If a boy is attacked by a girl bully in school he faces 2 choices. “If I fight back I’m a brute for fighting a girl. If I don’t then I’m a wimp for getting beat by a girl.” As a result er end up with quotes like the one you have there from Lionel Ritchie. The only difference is that he actually said what many men are thinking when attacked by a woman. The largest predictor of women’s injury in DV is her own violence. Nobody seems to recall that Chris Brown… Read more »
Thanks for helping me to inject a little reality into the situation Danny, Danny writes: “People for some unknown reason seem to think that being (more likely to be) smaller and weaker means you have less responsibility than people that are larger and stronger.” Of course this only applies to women and men. I remember reading in the paper a while back that in one of the Detroit suburbs (I live in Flint) a 5’8″ 120lb man was being beligerent to a 6’4″ 250lb man at a little league hockey game. For whatever reason, the smaller man actually got physical.… Read more »
In the story of two crazed female mcdonalds customers attacking a male mcdonalds employee (because he scanned their $50 bill to see if it was real) is a good example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-abstGkJ-E&feature=related The two women looked like jackals moving in for the kill surrounding him from multiple angles. He retreated and retreated, but they clearly did not have any kind of good attentions. He defended himself with some kind of oil cleaning metal rod. There was a well-spring of sympathy for the violent women with advocates stating the mcdonalds employee should do time. He was found not guilty of any criminal… Read more »
I think Jeannie Suk (Harvard Law professor) is trying to change the law concerning domestic violence and the issues of privacy….Traditionally, law enforcement has been reluctant to interfere in what was considered the sanctity and “privacy” of one’s home (ie., “A man’s home is his castle”)….The tide is changing as the concern has shifted towards protecting lives that may be in danger…Family law has changed greatly as more and more people understand the family dynamics and the seemingly unending cycle of violence…If we don’t try to interrupt the cycle now, the violent behavior gets passed down to the next generation….
Leia, The problem with this protocol by police departments and prosecutors in their zealous pursuit of DV has to do with the mandatory arrest laws, and primary aggressor laws. Mandatory arrest laws state that if the cops are called in for a domestic incident somebody has to be arrested. Primary aggressor rules in many PD’s across the country state that if more than 5% of those arrests are women, the officers and departments will have to be reviewed for systemic anti-female bias. This despite 30 years of valid evidence that in DV women attack as often as men. Mandatory arrest… Read more »
For the record, as a victim of DV, I did not get a bag of Cheetos thrown in my face…it was true physical violence from a man over 6′ tall (and I was a petite young girl who couldn’t believe that this was happening from someone who claimed to have loved her)….I will defer from describing the physical attack in detail….suffice it to say…I would have died if things had made a turn for the worse…In my personal experience, it is very clear that I was the one in danger if you look at the sheer rage and sheer physical… Read more »
Leia writes: “For the record, as a victim of DV, I did not get a bag of Cheetos thrown in my face…it was true physical violence from a man over 6′ tall (and I was a petite young girl who couldn’t believe that this was happening from someone who claimed to have loved her)” I wasn’t making a correlation with what happened to you. I was specifically rebutting your presumption that giving greater power to prosecutors and cops to be intrusive (especially with the mandatory arrest and primary aggressor laws in place now) are not automatically GOOD. In fact, I… Read more »
Additionally, in the cheetos case it wasn’t the “assaulted” wife who called the cops. It was the wife of the couple they were staying at. Having citizens callout other citizens as having something wrong with them was the way Nazi’s seized jews and the way MacArthur hearings were conducted. I think it’s interesting that everywhere when we talk about the need to believe women when talking about rape or DV, that this sentiment DISAPPEARS when the woman wants to recant a complaint (or in the cheetos case, the alleged victims wants to fight the claim from an observer). If you… Read more »
Leia says: “Of the women that I know, they were all attacked by their significant others and did not fight back….none of them are radical feminists and do not profit from DV….my babysitter was put in the hospital from an attack by her husband (he also struck her child in the same incident)….she is an observant Catholic and never reported her husband to the police, but had to leave the marriage after enduring such violence for 11 years (I’m sure she would have ended up with more serious injuries or death if she stayed….she later found out he was on… Read more »
Edit:
Per the study I linked by Dr. Dutton men are only 16% likely to report their own abuse versus 62% for women.
“Tiger Woods was assaulted. Andre Rison was a victim of arson. Why is that so hard?”
Assaults are not categorized like burns — 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree — and that leaves us to do our own judging of the harm done. When men physically assault women, their strength can do much more damage than when a female assaults. Also men can defend themselves much easier, because generally they are bigger and stronger. So I think those are reasons why female victims of assault tend to receive more compassion. Maybe we need to start categorizing assaults like burns.
That’s a good point. Perhaps the laws are not nuanced enough to take into account all the variables, but there actually are some gradations of assault. Most states have sentencing guidelines that give extra sentencing penalties for particular “aggravated” scenarios – attacker uses a weapon, attacker has martial art training, the victim is exceptionally vulnerable or incapacitated before the assault, the victim is a police officer, etc. Even with what you suggest, I’m still not sure the laws should have gendered language, necessarily. If “assaulting a smaller, weaker person” is a particular kind of assault, then that should be the… Read more »
Not to mention that I’m pretty sure theres DV studies out there showing that women are more likely to use a weapon. But aside from all that, its still irrelevant: Victims of DV often stay with their partner when they have a clear choice to leave. Its stockholm syndrome and emotional blackmail can cripple even the strongest person, male or female.
See I think that while that’s not happening on a legal level I do think that is currently happening on a social or cultural level. While when no weapons are involved men are typically able to do more damage to women than the reverse I think this has resulted in people (some directly, some indirectly) to determine domestic violence based on gender more than the violence. A hierarchy if you will where one is actually treated worse than the other. I recall a story I read a while back (at Fathers and Families I think) in which a woman was… Read more »
Strength isn’t nearly as important as surprise and available weaponry.
Add emotional leverage to that and its a pretty even playing field, except for the sexism of the legal system of course.
Danny Writes: “I recall a story I read a while back (at Fathers and Families I think) in which a woman was attacking her husband and when he called the cops the cops tried to lock him up, spouting the usual stuff about primary aggressor and all that. When he finally got the cops to pay attention (at least to the fact that he was injured and she wasn’t) the cops’ attitudes literally turned a 180, saying he needed to get her some help and left. I’m sure most people will agree that’s messed up but that’s just what male… Read more »
I want to add clarity to my post, because some people are confused about what I’m actually saying. A person can get burned in various ways: acid, fire, boiling water, an iron, so on; so the same goes with assault: physical assault (punching, kicking…), assault with a weapon (bat, belt, broomstick…)….let’s leave murder aside as that is a different type of crime entirely. Now with burns, you can physically see the damage on a victim, and a professional will assess it as either 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree to categorize the physical damage. In doing this, we can gather and… Read more »
I see your point. The level of the offense should be connected to the effects of the crime in some way. I can agree with that. If someone is put into a coma by an assault, that should be a worse crime than an assault that leaves a tiny bruise. Of course, “assault” also includes an attack that doesn’t physically harm the victim at all. If I shoot a gun in anger and the bullet misses, I am still guilty of assault with a deadly weapon. I think that’s a much worse crime than a punch on the arm, even… Read more »
With your gun example, we already have a term for it, it’s called “attempted murder”…that’s not assault; my posts deal strictly with assault. With murder, there’s also first and second degree language. I’m also aware that assault can lead to the death of someone…which would bump assault to — murder. I think “assault with a weapon” actually means using a weapon to physically assault someone with ie. pistol whipping. Shooting someone and missing…that would fall under attempted murder, rather than assault with a weapon. Caveat: My legal knowledge doesn’t come from TV…it comes from deductions and from a little birdie.… Read more »
Sorry, but that doesn’t work. The rating system of burns is a rough and ready system designed to help diagnosis and clinical treatment. The legal system has a much more complicated task: they have to assess the damage to the victim, potential damage to the victim, damage to the victim’s property, the intentions of the perpetrator, the likelyhood of reoccurance, mitigating circumstances (such as temporary insanity and self defence), and whether or not it actually happened… doesn’t lend itself too well to a rating system. To take the example you gave (Rhianna being beaten vs. Golf club to Tiger Woods),… Read more »
See, that’s exactly the problem. People extrapolating information to infinity —this could have happened, that could have happened…maybe this, maybe that…ALLEGING this, alleging that…. Why don’t we stick to the known facts, look at the evidence and call on any witnesses??? MRAs are too funny. (BTW, domestic violence is not a gendered term.) “Tiger Woods’ wife wanted to hit him on the head with a golf club, possibly more than once.” Umm, and how do you know that? Possibly more than once? What the hell…there was NO report that Tiger suffered any injury from a golf club; Elin only scratched… Read more »
Like,
Assault causing actual bodily harm
Assault causing grievous bodily harm
Assault with a weapon
Assault with a dangerous weapon
Aggravated assaults as above
Specially aggravated assaults as above
Attempted murder
etc…
I wonder why no-one has thought of that?