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By Sean Graham
As anyone who has ever done archival research knows, there are moments where things can get incredibly dull. To get over this, we all try to find little things that keep us going. When I was in the midst of reading every issue of the Moose Jaw Times between 1931 and 1934, for example, I very much enjoyed following the daily exploits of Little Orphan Annie. Most days nothing noteworthy happened – in fact, some strips were simply announcing that she was changing locations – but it all worked together as a serial and, every couple weeks, something exciting happened that made you glad you had followed the story all the way through. When compared to today, where people binge television programs, the long-term connection and slow unfolding of story lines over the course of weeks and months seems to have been lost.
One place where binge consumption isn’t as prominent, however, is comics. Just as it took Annie a couple weeks to resolve a problem, comic strips today still evolve at a slower pace than other forms of entertainment. There are plenty of daily comic strips that still operate as a serial, serialized comic books release a new issue every few months, and even graphic novels, while not always serialized, have a tendency to allow stories to unfold at a slower pace.
Because of this, comics have distinguished themselves as a form of popular culture. Through their unique ability to tell stories, they have often been able to illicit strong emotional reactions from readers. And while there are plenty of examples of comics being subversive, they have not received the same attention from censors or law makers as film, television, and music, meaning that through the twentieth century they were able to operate in a less regulated environment and regularly presented narratives that may not have made it into mainstream popular culture. This is particularly true of depictions of war, which is the subject of Hillary Chute’s new book Disaster Drawn: Visual Witness, Comics, and Documentary Form.
In this episode of the History Slam, I talk with Professor Chute of the University of Chicago and Visiting Professor at Harvard University about the book. We chat about the perception of comics as a medium for children, the tradition of subversive comics in American history, and comics in the digital age.
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Video Transcript:
00:05
welcome to the history slam podcast from
00:07
activist read CA here’s your host Sean
00:10
Graham Thank You Adam welcome to the
00:13
history Slayer everybody I am Sean
00:15
Graham coming out today nearly live we
00:17
are in Cambridge Massachusetts where I
00:19
continue to post doc it up at the
00:22
Weatherhead Center for International
00:24
Affairs where I’m actually in the middle
00:25
of my course that I’m teaching on
00:27
popular culture and today we’re going to
00:30
talk to someone who is research from
00:32
popular culture things and visual
00:34
representations and the meaning of those
00:35
things and she has written a new book
00:37
that is launching next week it’s
00:41
actually out but this is sort of a
00:42
launch week because I’m doing an event
00:44
at the Harvard books right an event at
00:46
Harvard so in my mind this is the launch
00:48
week okay so yeah the big official
00:50
launch after the soft release navies is
00:53
coming up this week it’s disaster drawn
00:56
visual witness comics and documents
00:59
reform and The Voice you heard was that
01:00
of Hillary shoot a visiting professor in
01:03
English department here at Harvard
01:05
normally from the University of Chicago
01:07
and a Cambridge Massachusetts native
01:10
welcome to the show thank you thanks for
01:13
having me so this book like you say it’s
01:15
it’s out but really being launched this
01:18
week it’s we should notice a Harvard
01:20
University book the publisher and you’re
01:24
looking at nonfiction representations of
01:27
war through the 20th century obviously
01:30
your main interest is in comics you’ve
01:32
you’ve written two other books you’ve
01:34
edited a couple other books to make the
01:37
rest of us feel really inadequate
01:39
because you you’re not that far to your
01:42
PhD and to have five books on your line
01:44
is pretty impressive but generally
01:47
generally speaking where does this
01:48
interest in comics and the visual
01:50
representations of drawing come from
01:52
mouse was the first graphic narrative
01:55
that I got really fascinated by I wasn’t
01:58
a fan of comics as a kid I like some
02:01
comics I’m at Garfield I red asterisk I
02:04
read Tintin I have two older sisters so
02:07
I read some of their cast-off
02:09
underground comics and I once discovered
02:11
a whole moldering trunk full of horror
02:14
comics belong to some cousin
02:15
but I wasn’t coming at it from a fan
02:18
angle and I actually read mouse as a
02:21
graduate student when I was getting my
02:23
PhD in a contemporary literature course
02:26
that had mostly historical fiction as
02:31
part of the syllabus and I became
02:35
fascinated by it that was 16 years ago
02:39
and I feel like I still haven’t stopped
02:41
thinking about mouse and how come it
02:43
works so well so mouse was really the
02:46
inspirational text for me the more I
02:49
looked after I read it the more I found
02:53
that there were other stories like Mouse
02:56
maybe not the same in the particulars
02:58
but I discovered Joe Sacco’s work and I
03:01
discovered other work that is about
03:03
basically world historical conflict in
03:06
trauma so my guiding question was why
03:08
this medium for these kinds of stories
03:11
it’s interesting though because when we
03:14
think of comics we think of nerdy mostly
03:19
white guys at a comic book store yeah
03:22
sort of the Big Bang Theory crew yeah in
03:24
there so so you are obviously not a
03:27
nerdy white guy um so coming at that is
03:30
there a gender dynamic to this that
03:32
you’re approaching it or that maybe your
03:34
unique in the field as a woman
03:37
approaching comics well right I might
03:42
not be a nerdy white guy I guess I’m a
03:44
nerdy I’m a nerdy white woman um there
03:48
are a couple things I think that I
03:51
didn’t come at comics with the kinds of
03:57
assumptions that fans comment comics
04:02
with so I didn’t have that fan
04:03
background which I think was was really
04:06
useful for me and if I want to work in
04:08
really broad strokes I think today
04:11
serious fan culture is much more diverse
04:14
in terms of gender and sexuality than it
04:17
ever has been before but as you say
04:19
typically the sort of stereotype of the
04:22
comic book fan is the nerdy white guy
04:25
as you said or as some of my students
04:27
would point out oh it’s like the comic
04:31
book guy character from The Simpsons
04:32
yeah for example right so this sort of
04:35
lording esoteric knowledge over you
04:38
collector culture obsessed marginalized
04:42
chip on the shoulder and nerdy wet guy
04:45
and I do think that the fact that I’m a
04:49
woman and I don’t have this fan
04:51
background has earned me some skepticism
04:56
in some pockets of comics culture and
04:59
I’ll take it I don’t I don’t mind at all
05:02
I think that’s coupled with the fact
05:05
that I’ve done a lot of field building
05:09
within the Academy relating to the
05:12
academic study of comics so am a woman
05:16
be I don’t have a fan background and see
05:19
in the view of some I’m bringing comics
05:24
from a vital popular mass oriented space
05:30
into an elite rarified space so I’d say
05:36
that I’ve gotten some flak for that too
05:38
and again I’ll take it I feel like the
05:40
more kinds of spaces that comics is
05:43
studied in the better so I’m happy to be
05:46
the person um helping to bring comics to
05:49
the Academy whatever those implications
05:51
are and it’s hard because when I’ve
05:53
lectured the pop culture course that
05:55
I’ve taught I in the 50s I talk about
05:58
comics and the subversive nature of
06:00
comics during the 50s as it relates to
06:02
McCarthyism do you talk about mad yeah I
06:04
know yes yeah we talked about that yeah
06:07
and also some of the more violent ones
06:09
these sort of the underground ones as
06:10
well those are sort of the two extremes
06:12
oh yeah satire and violence being
06:15
represented but i only talk about it in
06:17
the 50s and it’s not extensive and
06:21
usually the reaction I get from students
06:23
is that because I set it all up as you
06:26
know pop culture being very mainstream
06:28
and economically viable and yet comics
06:31
some of the ones I talked about maybe
06:32
not so much and they question whether or
06:35
not they belong in that
06:38
so it’s one of these dynamics that it
06:41
seems that would be difficult to sort of
06:44
beat into people how relevant these
06:47
things are yeah I love that narrative
06:49
that you are just sketching actually
06:51
because I feel like at all points in its
06:54
popular history and it’s sort of history
06:57
being studied in the Academy there’s
07:00
something productively awkward about the
07:02
place of comics like it doesn’t quite
07:05
slot in as a form the way one might want
07:08
it to in a way that I find actually
07:10
really inspiring so I mean in the 50s
07:13
you’re talking about horror comics there
07:15
was really really kind of gross and
07:19
weird but really fascinating and
07:22
powerful work being produced in the 50s
07:25
in mainstream genre comic books and it
07:29
actually was an industry that got
07:32
derailed not by lack of consumer
07:34
interest because these comics sold
07:36
really well but because of these Senate
07:39
hearings in the US that led to a
07:42
censorship code for comics that
07:44
basically destroyed the above-ground
07:47
comics industry so I think the consumers
07:51
were we’re into it and it wants to
07:55
become subversive they get shut down and
07:58
and yeah but and that’s why they’re
08:00
powerful too is that they’re commenting
08:02
on things that in the 1950s Lucy wasn’t
08:06
yeah so it gives expression to things
08:08
that otherwise are not said and at the
08:11
same time though for some reason I feel
08:14
as though the general perception of
08:16
comics is that they are they’re not
08:18
intellectual endeavors that they’re
08:21
meant for a less intelligent audience is
08:26
that something that you you’ve come
08:28
across to an end of the popular
08:30
perception of comics I’ve come across it
08:32
all the time sort of even in this day
08:35
and age where there have been so many
08:38
obviously sophisticated literary
08:41
fascinating comics so I feel like I’m
08:43
always doing a sort of song and dance
08:46
comics to convince people that what you
08:49
just said isn’t actually the case I mean
08:51
if you look in the 50s something like
08:55
Mad Magazine was so sophisticated mad
08:58
comics which was started in 1952 which
09:01
later became mad magazine and one of the
09:03
ways I like to point this out to my
09:05
students is that I feel that mad
09:08
basically created what today we would
09:11
just call humor like the fake news shows
09:14
you know with Stephen Colbert Jon
09:16
Stewart this whole awareness of the
09:18
medium and the conventions of the medium
09:21
being part of the subject of the work
09:23
but with something pioneered by harvey
09:26
kurtzman at mad and now it’s just sort
09:28
of everywhere right it’s redic what is
09:31
this what what we call humor it’s kind
09:33
of what we call news but I mean mad
09:35
started that kind of deeply intelligent
09:38
also deeply formalist also deeply
09:42
hilarious satire so it was for kids kind
09:46
of but also for adults to this book
09:49
though you’re looking at nonfiction yeah
09:53
mix yeah and I’m wondering how do you
09:56
define the two because something that
10:00
something that is a humor magazine could
10:03
present a fictional story but it has
10:07
very real-world implications and it’s
10:09
meant to satirize something it is non
10:11
figure eight so is there a distinction
10:13
there are you because this the book
10:15
particularly is looking at war so do you
10:17
have to make that distinction between
10:19
something that may be presented as
10:22
fiction but really is based on a
10:24
non-fiction event right that’s a great
10:27
question so what interests me is work
10:32
that conceives of itself as
10:36
non-fictional or as documentary so I
10:40
think in this book I’m less interested
10:41
in sort of drawing a line in the sand
10:44
between fiction and nonfiction from
10:46
without and art spiegelman who’s one of
10:48
the cartoonists who I write about
10:49
extensively has said that some of the
10:51
best most interesting work sort of like
10:53
happens in in the space of that line but
10:57
I was interested in were
10:59
that sees itself as accurate that sees
11:02
itself as reporting that sees itself as
11:04
bearing witness that said I have a weird
11:08
kind of chapter at the beginning where i
11:10
cobbled together basically my version of
11:13
comics history and what led to the kind
11:16
of work that we see so much of today
11:18
which is this work that is bearing
11:20
witness to war on disaster and matt is a
11:22
is a piece of that puzzle for me and so
11:26
is really strange work that not that
11:29
many people write about or talk about
11:31
like the painter phillip gustin’s book
11:34
on Richard Nixon called poor Richard
11:36
which is a series of satirical drawings
11:39
so satire I think is a really important
11:44
area because so much interesting visual
11:48
and political expression is happening in
11:50
satire before you get to work in the
11:52
20th century that sees itself as
11:54
autobiographical or nonfiction or
11:57
confessional and we’re talking to about
12:01
comic books magazines newspaper yeah
12:05
comics it’s a whole realm right it’s not
12:06
specific to one form of distribution
12:10
right so at the risk of sounding really
12:13
boring and didactic what I explained to
12:16
my students on the first day you know
12:19
for example a few weeks ago here at
12:20
Harvard which seems clear now but sort
12:24
of isn’t if you’re not used to thinking
12:25
about comics the way I am is thomas’s
12:28
and medium comics of course like other
12:31
media contains many different genres
12:34
like romance horror you know reporting
12:37
what have you and then the fascinating
12:40
thing about comics is it’s always been
12:41
so driven by innovations in format so we
12:47
have the comic strip we have the comic
12:49
book we have the so-called graphic novel
12:52
what does that really mean you have sort
12:54
of in between things if you go back to
12:56
the 19th century the person who’s
12:59
basically credited with creating the
13:01
conventions of modern comics was a swiss
13:04
artists working in the 1830s who made
13:06
what he called picture novels
13:08
so for matt has always been huge and
13:11
another thing that art spiegelman who’s
13:14
a person that I’ve worked with closely
13:16
so I’m prone to quote his good insights
13:20
he said the history of comics in some
13:22
ways as the history of printing and so
13:24
format is just really important right
13:26
what can you do in a 32-page comic book
13:28
that you can’t do in a four-panel comic
13:31
strip in the newspaper a lot yeah yes
13:34
yeah yeah one of the things that I’ve
13:36
found pretty cool I was going through
13:38
newspapers at one point in my archival
13:40
research and it was the same it was the
13:41
Moose Jaw times yeah with the 30s and
13:44
they had Little Orphan Annie oh yeah
13:46
that’s such a great yeah so and I was
13:48
going through each day right so I
13:49
followed the story and some days as a
13:53
comic strip it wasn’t very good because
13:55
I’m sort of forwarding the plot right
13:57
like oh I’m gonna go over to this
13:58
person’s house now right like that was
14:00
the day’s comic so when its own like
14:02
what’s the point but may I see it its
14:04
totality it was just playing at the
14:07
story which was really a lot of fun yeah
14:09
to see how they use the format of we
14:11
have whatever four squares a day yeah
14:13
and how are we gonna forward the story
14:15
yeah I find that so interesting I mean
14:18
comics is so much about this cereal
14:21
right and sort of creating cereal ways
14:24
of reading so I I loved your example of
14:27
the Little Orphan Annie strip it may
14:29
it’s sort of asking readers to engage
14:31
over time yeah in that way yeah it’s an
14:34
investment in investment so you’re
14:36
making into the story knowing that every
14:39
day is not going to be the greatest
14:41
because I’m gonna be necessary to laugh
14:43
every day there’s a great revelation
14:45
every day range is the continuation of
14:47
the story right which is kind of fun
14:49
yeah I think it’s really fun and it’s
14:51
also so different than a lot of the
14:54
media that we have now which is sort of
14:57
like quick purchase on meaning where
14:59
I’ll soon sort of speed it up or
15:00
something right and very episodic yeah
15:02
and you know either even the way they
15:05
make TV shows now right like binging on
15:07
TV we’re quickly digestible there might
15:10
be a serial with in that thing but you
15:14
know in within 10 episodes rain that’s
15:17
it right we’re done with it
15:19
there’s not that long term continuation
15:22
right like the plot is told based on
15:25
serial form yeah but you can consume it
15:29
basically not see really the way you
15:32
would if you’re following a story in the
15:34
paper or even following a comic book
15:36
that comes out every few months right
15:37
you actually have to wait right yeah
15:39
it’s very much instantaneous and
15:42
episodic and it’s it’s format and its
15:44
distribution so our consumption so the
15:46
consumption pattern pattern is much
15:48
different much different so with respect
15:51
to this book you are talking about war
15:53
specifically in the representations of
15:55
war now I’m wondering why you chose war
15:58
for these representations when to me
16:02
comics are much more politically
16:05
motivated in there satire in their
16:08
commentary so I guess one of the big
16:13
distinctions for me since we were
16:16
talking about taxonomy Xand format and
16:18
that type of thing is the cartoon versus
16:22
the comics narrative or the graphic
16:25
narrative so I often use the phrase
16:27
graphic narrative instead of graphic
16:29
novel because I focus on nonfiction work
16:31
a graphic novel can sometimes be a
16:34
misnomer right your wives fiction right
16:36
and implies direction so to the extent
16:37
that implies fiction I I tend to go with
16:40
graphic narrative but you know it’s sort
16:42
of fun studying comics because the
16:43
lexicon is still sort of up in the air
16:45
and right not codified yet but most
16:49
people conventionally think of a cartoon
16:52
as a single panel image and comics the
16:56
medium as a form that involves sequence
17:00
so two panels anything where there’s
17:04
causality you know a to be so when I
17:08
think of political cartooning and that
17:11
and that really rich tradition and
17:14
caricature I tend to think of the single
17:17
panel image of course you have a lot of
17:19
political work and satire work in comics
17:22
too but I think the fact of
17:26
storytelling in comics form about war so
17:29
in sort of longer series of images is
17:32
what really got me interested in comics
17:36
and war when you’re looking at the 20th
17:38
century as well right yep so are you
17:41
jumping from more time to war time are
17:43
you looking at interwar period as well
17:45
and perhaps the way in which the
17:48
memories are also being reflected and
17:51
changing through time or is it a jumping
17:53
from say First World War Second World
17:55
War Korea Vietnam and so on that’s a
17:58
great question so part of the structure
18:00
of the book is that actually start in
18:02
the 17th century so I i start with
18:06
Jacques kalo the print maker who did the
18:10
series called the Grand miseries of war
18:12
about the thirty years war and this was
18:15
a series of prints that came out in 1633
18:17
so I end with the current moment and the
18:22
current moment for me was last year
18:25
writing a cota about the Charlie Hebdo
18:27
attack yes so that’s that’s as current
18:30
as the book gets um but I sort of end
18:32
with the political cultural aesthetic
18:35
position of contemporary comics and
18:37
that’s my reference point but I wanted
18:40
to try to offer a longer trajectory
18:44
earlier than the 20th century then
18:46
people might be used to having four
18:48
comics okay so print was my big factor
18:54
in deciding where to start the book I
18:56
have friends who are classics professors
18:58
here at Harvard for example to point it
19:00
out to me okay well if you’re looking at
19:02
narrative series of images about war
19:05
what about attic vases you know so if
19:10
narrative and war and images if those
19:13
are your criteria cave paintings you can
19:17
go back far as you possibly want to
19:19
basically yeah but what I was really
19:22
interested in and this goes back to sort
19:24
of your question about serial reading
19:26
and print in this type of thing is print
19:28
and circulation because part of what’s
19:31
so powerful for me about comics as a
19:33
form is how experimental it can be how
19:36
forceful it can be especially
19:38
around violent images and then how
19:41
invested it is as a form in
19:44
accessibility in circulation and how it
19:47
conceives of itself as a sort of
19:49
democratic art form right so I’m not
19:52
trying to claim that this person jacala
19:55
working in the 1630s saw himself as a
19:58
cartoonist what I’m rather trying to
20:01
claim is his work which had words and
20:05
images which was a series of engravings
20:08
in which he privately printed and
20:12
circulated is an important antecedent
20:15
because it sort of sets of visual
20:17
grammar and a visual example for that
20:19
kind of work to take shape in the
20:22
centuries after so goya was directly
20:25
influenced by kelo when he did the
20:27
disasters of war in the 1810s and Goya
20:30
influenced plenty of contemporary
20:33
cartoonists even the ones who are
20:35
working today hmm so in tracing that
20:38
development there’s so many changes then
20:41
through time right go beyond maybe just
20:44
the format but also you know
20:46
distribution and the scale right the
20:49
comics and audience and things like that
20:51
so how do you find a narrative voice
20:54
within that to sort of encompass it all
20:57
to make a digestible to the reader I
21:00
think what was really powerful to me
21:02
about the examples that i put together
21:05
that I you know grouped together is they
21:08
were all formally experimental they all
21:11
are about witnessing so these are works
21:16
that don’t just show an image of war but
21:20
somehow SEMA ties the act of looking at
21:25
images of war so they’re all sort of
21:27
formally self-reflexive works ann’s are
21:31
all interested in existing not just for
21:35
private consumption or not just to be a
21:37
single object that hangs on the wall hmm
21:40
so that’s basically the definition in a
21:43
sense of contemporary comics right which
21:46
is awkward now that museums are getting
21:47
really interested in common
21:49
but you know goya was the court artist
21:52
he did this other work on his own time
21:55
and had it printed so he specifically
21:59
wanted to do this work as work that
22:02
would be printed and circulated and then
22:04
there’d be a distinction to between say
22:06
and newspaper print piece versus a book
22:10
itself or even the longer novel e type
22:13
type thing and does that shape the
22:16
understanding of it the because sure
22:19
they’re all the same medium as a comic
22:22
but within those forms they represent
22:25
different media right same time right so
22:28
so how do we reconcile those differences
22:30
well one of the things that I’ve always
22:32
found um I know like appealing and
22:36
unpretentious about comics as a forum is
22:39
that you see this really experimental
22:41
work happening in formats that are
22:44
pretty conventional like the newspaper
22:47
right um I find it so moving that
22:49
someone like winsor mccay who’s part of
22:51
my sort of prehistory in the 20th
22:54
century at least of formerly
22:56
experimental work did such beautiful
22:58
work um in newspapers in the early 1900s
23:02
that were then used as fish wrap this
23:05
was totally ephemeral newsprint and he
23:09
did this sort of to me heartbreakingly
23:11
beautiful and fascinating work so that
23:13
that contradiction is again part of what
23:16
I was calling the productive awkwardness
23:17
economics and I kind of enjoy now one of
23:20
the key tenets of the book is that is
23:23
your contention that comics are more
23:27
powerful or more striking images than
23:31
actual photographs it’s particularly in
23:34
terms of commenting on wards and I
23:37
haven’t studied this so I certainly
23:38
can’t say for sure I mean I have a
23:40
couple ideas as to why that would be
23:42
particularly coming out of the American
23:45
Civil War when a lot of photographers
23:48
were shown to have manipulated the
23:51
images and staged images particularly of
23:53
dead bodies to get like Matthew Brady
23:56
yeah yeah I like to get the set like
23:58
they had they knew what they wanted to
24:00
convey
24:01
and they set up an image to create that
24:03
but presented it as an accurate
24:06
reflection of what actually happened
24:08
they just came upon the scene and took a
24:09
photograph of it so to me there’s almost
24:12
a distrust of photographers that are
24:15
purporting to be authentic documentary
24:19
people like that they’re they’re getting
24:22
an accurate accurately showing what
24:24
happened yep whereas someone who’s
24:27
drawing a comic doesn’t have that
24:29
concern it’s clear just from what
24:31
they’re doing that this is an
24:33
interpretive yes thing right so to me
24:36
for the reader it could be more
24:38
authentic or like it’s not there’s not a
24:42
risk of lying in there because it’s
24:44
clear what’s happening just in its form
24:47
so you know that’s sort of my theory on
24:50
why comics would be more striking but I
24:53
like this theory okay so I mean I think
24:57
of comics as a patently artificial form
25:03
which isn’t to say that it’s a form that
25:06
can’t be accurate but it’s a form that
25:08
consists of little drawn boxes sitting
25:11
next to each other on a printed page
25:13
right so it’s not it’s not pretending to
25:16
be transparent the way I feel like a lot
25:20
of photography pretends to be
25:22
transparent right and so I think this is
25:24
one of the powerful features of a form
25:27
that involves drawing and so you and I
25:30
might say Oh obviously a photograph
25:32
isn’t necessarily capital T true right
25:36
regardless of if it’s actually been
25:38
manipulated and composed right there’s
25:41
still all sorts of other ways where it’s
25:42
it fails to be true right it’s not it’s
25:44
like the saying that you take a
25:47
photograph but you make a picture right
25:50
right so people think of photographs
25:53
this I’m just capturing something that’s
25:55
out there that’s true to be captured
25:56
right and it’s true a photograph has a
26:00
different indexical relationship to what
26:04
we think of as reality as that mark run
26:07
at page does but it’s not necessarily
26:09
true and it’s certainly not necessarily
26:12
objective sure right so
26:14
Oh both comics and photography involves
26:17
frames mm-hmm yet comics involves a
26:20
bunch of frames that sit next to each
26:21
other sort of calling attention to
26:23
itself as a form that’s constituted by
26:27
frames right good whereas that type of
26:29
thing tends to be erased in in
26:30
photography like that take the picture
26:33
versus you know make a picture
26:35
distinction right so I think that but I
26:38
think like you said because comics
26:40
doesn’t pretend to be capturing optical
26:46
reality right the way photographs are
26:50
often received as doing um it opens up a
26:55
whole different area for thinking about
26:58
what’s accurate and that often has to do
27:01
with emotional accuracy and it often has
27:04
to do with the idea of and this is where
27:07
I sort of get to witnessing which is one
27:09
of the big themes of the book I think
27:12
you used the word authentic um the the
27:15
idea that a body made this mark right
27:18
right it’s not necessarily mechanical
27:20
objectivity the way we we think of
27:24
camera being great um it’s a body in
27:27
time and space that made that made this
27:29
mark that you’re seeing in time and
27:31
space and so there’s some kind of
27:33
intimacy to drawing that can be absent
27:36
from photography that I think can be
27:38
very powerful when what’s happening is
27:41
witnessing violence for example hey I
27:44
also think the comics would be more
27:46
settled yeah or more I don’t know what
27:50
the right word is but like there’s more
27:52
to them because especially with war
27:55
photographs it’s either condemning the
27:57
violence and it’s a horrible experience
27:59
or it’s glorifying the heroes of the war
28:04
right and there’s not a lot of room in
28:06
the middle whereas comics can get into
28:09
the settled so you can get into the
28:11
nuance of war in a way that photographs
28:15
I don’t think can yeah it’s interesting
28:18
one of the big interlocutors for me
28:21
writing this book was Susan Sontag and
28:23
you know she’s this famous
28:26
critic of photography who basically
28:28
hates photography and her very last book
28:32
which was published posthumously called
28:35
regarding the pain of others is a book
28:39
that had a big influence on my thinking
28:41
in writing disaster drawn and what I
28:44
love is that basically regarding the
28:46
pain of others is a history of images of
28:48
atrocity that’s basically about
28:49
photography and she doesn’t have a
28:53
single nice thing to say about any
28:55
photographers or photographs until she
28:57
gets to Goa right who wasn’t a
28:59
photographer no sirve like 50 pages into
29:02
the book so part of what she’s staying
29:05
in this book which is largely about war
29:08
photography is is what you were just
29:09
saying there’s something about the drawn
29:12
line that’s that’s actually sort of more
29:14
um an invitation to more engagement than
29:20
a photograph often is which are I mean
29:24
photographs are often read as polemical
29:26
or they feel polemical right um in a way
29:28
that drawings can avoid now in
29:32
acknowledging that these are you know
29:34
marks on paper that that there is the
29:36
interpretive element just in the nature
29:38
of what they are who are the people who
29:41
are making them mentioned some of the
29:43
names already but in general the people
29:47
who are creating the comics are they
29:50
people who are trying to or who are
29:54
drawing to achieve a political purpose
29:57
or is it merely their personal
30:00
expression that they want to get out or
30:02
is it even simply a case of economics
30:05
that someone has hired them to do a
30:07
comic strip and to present this
30:10
narrative well that certainly is
30:12
happening more and more these days and
30:14
comics is entering the mainstream which
30:16
is a good thing um so right i don’t want
30:19
to overly romanticized comics i think
30:21
some people are doing it for money right
30:24
but by and large I don’t think comics is
30:29
a career that one would enter if one is
30:32
really trying to make a lot of money I
30:34
think it sort of back-breaking labor
30:38
and generally not a lot of recognition
30:40
right so i would say that part of what
30:45
interests me about the work in this book
30:47
is how it’s maybe a little bit off to
30:51
this side of what we would think of as
30:54
capital p political and it’s also maybe
30:59
a little bit off to the side of what we
31:01
would think of as sort of solely
31:03
personal right so it’s worked this
31:05
public and private at the same time so
31:09
you know art spiegelman the cartoonist
31:14
who did mouse is doing a lot of research
31:19
about World War two in the Holocaust to
31:22
produce mouse which he worked on for 13
31:24
years but it’s also research that has
31:27
the framework of being about his father
31:30
and his family’s experience so both of
31:32
his parents were in concentration camps
31:34
in world war two and his mother
31:37
committed suicide when he was 20 and so
31:40
mouse is about him trying to elicit his
31:42
father’s testimony so it’s personal and
31:46
it’s public its private and its
31:49
historical it sort of takes place right
31:50
on that fault line someone like Joe
31:53
Sacco though who is a comics journalist
31:56
I think sees himself as a journalist
32:00
he’s doing reporting it’s not political
32:04
and that it’s not necessarily advocating
32:07
for a certain political result or a
32:09
certain political cause but it’s
32:12
inescapably in the realm of the
32:14
political so he did a book and it’s
32:17
simply called Palestine and I have an
32:20
image from one of his Palestine comic
32:23
books because it was published as a
32:25
standard comic book before it was
32:27
collected as a book in my introduction
32:28
so a book simply called Palestine cannot
32:32
be read as anything other than yeah
32:35
political in our contemporary moment but
32:38
he’s not advocating for piece of
32:42
legislation he’s not advocating for new
32:45
peace talks he’s clearly invested in
32:49
people on the ground so he interviewed
32:50
about
32:51
people on both sides of the conflict for
32:53
this book but he’s making it clear that
32:57
he’s interested in the Palestinian
32:58
perspective right right hence his title
33:00
yeah yet he’s it’s not about human
33:03
rights for example it’s doing something
33:05
else and I think is even more powerful
33:08
it’s sort of about his experience of
33:11
being haunted by the other I’ve being
33:14
sort of like haunted by these
33:16
Palestinians that he meets and talks to
33:18
and stays with and interacts with it’s
33:21
not about a certain goal oriented piece
33:24
of politics so that to me is where it
33:26
becomes literary it’s reporting but it’s
33:30
not sort of just political journalism so
33:32
it’s not like every week because we
33:34
think of artists not just visual artists
33:36
like all artists musicians actors all
33:38
this as being very small a liberal and
33:42
in times of war protesting through their
33:46
art uh-huh so with comics is it fair to
33:50
say then based on that answer that we’re
33:52
not seeing that to the same extent that
33:54
sure those people would exist within the
33:57
comics world but it might not be as much
33:59
of a trend as say in music we’re all
34:03
sorts of anti-war songs come out all the
34:05
time that’s such an interesting question
34:08
I think it’s really evolved so
34:11
underground comics which was a basically
34:17
a publish a in an aesthetic revolution
34:20
that happened in the late 60s was really
34:24
tied to the left wing counterculture
34:26
press you know which was deeply involved
34:30
in protesting the Vietnam War so we have
34:33
that part of comics and underground
34:35
comics you know is where we get people
34:38
like Robert Crumb where we get
34:40
cartoonists like Art Spiegelman emerging
34:43
and other people who today have really
34:45
created hugely innovative books for the
34:49
contemporary comics and graphic novel
34:51
field but I think well there’s so much
34:54
interesting visual anti war propaganda
34:58
even in this period comics was a little
35:01
bit off to the side so there’s some
35:04
comics directly about the Vietnam War
35:07
that are like protest comics and I think
35:10
that comics during that era was a space
35:12
where those anti-war feelings could be
35:15
expressed safely in a way they couldn’t
35:18
in other venues as easily except for as
35:21
you mentioned music for example maybe
35:23
poetry but it was it was sort of like a
35:25
fertile area for expressing what
35:27
couldn’t be expressed elsewhere but a
35:30
lot of comics were inspired by Vietnam
35:32
but not directly about Vietnam ok so
35:35
this sense of like life and death
35:37
urgency yep that was created by the
35:40
Vietnam War basically created the genre
35:43
of confessional comics in the early 70s
35:46
but there are confessional comics about
35:48
World War two yeah my parents survived
35:51
or didn’t survive the Holocaust or they
35:54
were confessional comics about sexuality
35:56
right so Vietnam is this big instigator
35:59
but it doesn’t always get reflected
36:01
directly in the work as a reference hmm
36:05
well it is that sort of part two like
36:08
you mentioned music that there’s a lot
36:10
of even if it’s not directly anti-war
36:12
music there is a awards on were music
36:15
yes in that sense that works in the
36:19
music industry that doesn’t quite filter
36:22
into the television industry a little
36:23
into the film industry but yeah the
36:25
television because everything is so
36:27
centralized in television whereas in
36:29
music it’s a little more diverse a
36:31
little easier to put out a record and in
36:32
comics perhaps even much easier to to
36:35
make a comic right so so is the absence
36:40
of a centralized structure for both
36:44
production and distribution does that
36:46
help account for some of the more
36:48
diverse voices that get end absolutely
36:51
so I mean underground comics had no
36:56
mainstream systems of distribution they
37:00
were published by individuals or by
37:02
collectives printed by individuals or by
37:06
collectives and distributed through
37:08
non-traditional channels like at head
37:10
shops that genre that doesn’t really
37:12
exist any
37:13
you know countercultural boutiques oh
37:15
yeah like in San Francisco on you know
37:18
haight street you know along with bonds
37:21
and other things like that or they were
37:23
sold directly Robert Crumb sold the
37:26
first issue of zap comix out of a baby
37:29
carriage on haight street so I think the
37:34
fact that there was no centralized
37:37
mechanism for creating producing and
37:40
distributing comics absolutely shaped it
37:44
to be an area where people could express
37:45
things that weren’t able to be expressed
37:48
on TV and so I think a lot of
37:50
underground comics are actually a
37:52
reaction to the kind of televisual
37:54
oversaturation created by the Vietnam
37:59
War right and covering the war right now
38:01
I guess the problem with that is that
38:03
with television it’s a little easier to
38:07
tell who’s watching because there’s
38:09
three channels yeah and you kind of can
38:11
get a sense of who’s watching with
38:12
something like this where the
38:13
distribution is so varied notions of
38:16
audience are very difficult to
38:19
conceptualize yeah so how how for the
38:24
artists themselves who are putting forth
38:26
these comics is that something they were
38:28
conscious of their audiences or was it
38:30
more like you say that a personal
38:32
expression particularly these
38:33
confessional tech comics or were they
38:36
trying to cater to a specific audience
38:39
that’s really interesting question so I
38:42
think that what was so powerful about
38:45
underground comics was that underground
38:48
comics sort of was having a high
38:51
modernist moment in the late 1960s so
38:54
all of this kind of formal
38:55
experimentation had been happening in
38:57
other forms you know in the 20s for
39:01
example but that kind of work outside of
39:07
commercial constraint wasn’t really
39:10
available to cartoonists until
39:13
underground comics rude so I think part
39:16
of it was ok I’m creating the work that
39:18
I always wanted to create and not even
39:19
thinking about the audience but because
39:23
comics is a democratic art form in my
39:26
in these cartoonists were also
39:28
interested in creating work that would
39:30
circulate so funny aminals is the name
39:35
of an underground comic book where art
39:37
spiegelman first published a three-page
39:39
version of mouse in 1972 and that had a
39:43
print run of about it’s funny with
39:45
underground comics cuz like even people
39:46
who were there can’t remember twenty to
39:48
thirty thousand that’s big that’s big in
39:51
my mind so it wasn’t just that they were
39:54
creating work for other you know San
39:57
Francisco counterculture people or your
39:59
counter culture people you know they
40:01
wanted this work to get to people
40:04
outside of this esoteric world of comics
40:06
right it’s not there not just preaching
40:08
to the choir as it right you’re trying
40:10
not to right yeah right right and
40:12
they’re trying to bridge a divide with
40:15
people who might not have access to what
40:18
they were producing otherwise or might
40:20
not have access to those messages
40:22
absolutely i mean so this is the sort of
40:23
paradox of comics that I find so
40:25
interesting they’re either accused of
40:27
being too much of a mass medium or being
40:30
too esoteric okay and underground comics
40:34
is where those to sort of meet right
40:36
mm-hmm now when you say underground
40:39
comics of course it’s in the immediate
40:42
thought goes to you know subversive and
40:44
very different sort of things and we
40:48
mentioned that you know stuff in the
40:49
1950s and that’s the time with pacar
40:52
theism and there are he reigns looking
40:55
into the comic industry and there are
40:57
censorship laws in place in the 1950s so
41:02
just in general because around war
41:04
particularly the first and second world
41:06
world wars pop culture isn’t really
41:11
critical of those conflicts a little bit
41:14
in Korea much more during Vietnam are
41:19
comics viewed as dangerous by those in
41:23
power too or perhaps even conflicting
41:27
with the official national aims of a war
41:32
well um you know that’s such an
41:35
interesting question because I feel like
41:38
in Korea for example harvey kurtzman who
41:42
started mad magazine also did an
41:45
incredible series called two-fisted
41:47
tales in which he did very realistically
41:52
drawn war comics about for example the
41:55
Korean War and he even did one of the
42:01
first comics um about the second world
42:07
war that took on this subject position
42:12
of a Japanese person on the ground i
42:14
think in Nagasaki as part of the
42:17
framework of the story hmm um but I feel
42:21
like at least in the 50s comics weren’t
42:25
yet taken seriously enough okay by
42:28
anyone in power for that to be an area
42:33
that would be censored for that kind of
42:36
content so looking back now at cultural
42:41
production around you know the American
42:44
bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki I’m
42:46
I’m sort of I look at a comic like that
42:48
that them is from a Japanese civilians
42:51
point of view and I find it really
42:53
powerful right but I don’t think it
42:55
elicited any censorship at the time I
42:57
think because like you mentioned earlier
42:59
comics were seen as sort of trashy for
43:02
kids right stuff right and then moving
43:05
forward like does the McCarthyism error
43:07
change the content at all to do comics
43:12
change based on censorship laws or does
43:15
that sort of in the way prohibition
43:17
ironically pushed or some people argue
43:20
push people to drink does sense ship
43:22
push more people to comics and highlight
43:26
that they can be a place to get a
43:27
counterculture message yes although it’s
43:30
you know it’s interesting that you’re
43:31
bringing up McCarthy so I think for
43:34
people in the comics industry that the
43:37
I’m sure McCarthy wasn’t bad guys as not
43:40
to offend everybody but um one of the
43:42
really bad guys was this psychiatrist
43:44
dr. Fredric wertham who wrote a book
43:47
called seduction of the
43:48
innocent and that book came out in 1954
43:51
and it was a book that laid down the
43:53
argument for a link between comics and
43:55
juvenile delinquency hmm and so that was
43:58
the book that actually inspired the
44:00
Senate hearings that led to the creation
44:03
of a Comics Code censorship code for
44:10
comics right so I think that was really
44:14
the censoring moment that led people to
44:19
so-called you know go underground
44:22
because they actually couldn’t publish
44:25
interesting work in above-ground comics
44:28
or they couldn’t publish that much
44:29
interesting work so part of the reason
44:31
that mad comics became mad magazine was
44:35
was to evade this um comics code again
44:40
the subversive nature yeah the medium
44:42
right and there were I read somewhere
44:44
there were 36 FBI files on Matt I mean
44:47
like I don’t think you actually needed
44:48
to do much to get an FBI file but but
44:51
you know people were paying some
44:53
attention um but I think a lot of people
44:56
went sort of the underground route um so
45:01
yeah I think they may have had a career
45:03
in mind in so-called above-ground comics
45:06
but the comics code has so many
45:09
ridiculous tenants one was in every
45:11
instance shell good triumphs over evil I
45:14
mean it was a very reactionary very
45:16
post-war very scared and very
45:20
aesthetically um death knell buying this
45:26
type of code right so I think that did
45:29
push people towards underground comics
45:30
hmm and do we do see an expansion of
45:34
comics because of that that that not
45:38
only are maybe more people going to that
45:40
but the audience is seeking it out and
45:43
sort of wondering you know oh my god
45:45
like if this is this bad it must be good
45:47
sort of sort of idea yeah I think
45:50
there’s a lot of that going on I mean I
45:52
also think that underground comics
45:54
conceived of itself with that kind of
45:57
push
45:58
as being capital T taboo so stuff was
46:03
happening in comics that really wasn’t
46:05
happening elsewhere like even for
46:07
example images of sex um you could buy
46:12
comic books in head shops that had
46:15
images of sex that you couldn’t really
46:17
see in movies and you couldn’t really
46:19
see in photographs as easily I think the
46:22
fact that it was drawn got a lot of
46:23
stuff under the radar and I look into
46:26
the world so think comics came to be
46:28
seen as an area for visualizing the
46:31
taboo right right now as we we sort of
46:35
moved through the 20th century then into
46:36
the 21st century you mentioned earlier
46:38
that the book kind of ends with Charlie
46:41
Hebdo and what happened there there’s
46:43
seems to me to be an interesting dynamic
46:45
with comics and please correct me if I’m
46:48
wrong but that with the rise of the
46:50
graphic novel that comics perhaps are at
46:54
an all-time high in terms of mainstream
46:56
popularity yet at the same time the
47:00
decrease in actual drawn images that
47:04
we’ve seen the rise of computer
47:06
animation maybe makes them not as
47:11
prevalence or that some of the meaning
47:14
is taken away when they’re done on a
47:15
computer versus hand-drawn so there’s
47:19
this weird dynamic at play that people
47:21
want to consume comics yet fewer people
47:24
are actually drawing them and and maybe
47:27
in their truest form and and it strikes
47:30
me that you know as we move forward the
47:34
because drawing things takes a long time
47:36
and it’s expensive when you’re paying
47:39
people to do it so people go to the
47:41
computers and I think you can usually
47:44
notice a computer-generated image versus
47:47
a hand-drawn one and there’s so much
47:48
power and a hand-drawn one so I’m just
47:52
wondering if if there is some sort of
47:54
breaking point where we have to resolve
47:59
some sort of tension between the form of
48:03
comics and their popularity
48:05
yeah I think I think there are a couple
48:08
things to say there and one is that I’ve
48:12
thought about this a lot um part of what
48:16
i love about comics is what a lean
48:18
kaminski crumb who’s that um cartoonist
48:21
who created the first autobiographical
48:24
comics by women in the United States in
48:27
the early seventies she called it a
48:28
dinosaur medium okay no one she
48:31
described like you’re sweating on the
48:34
page like food gets on the page it’s pen
48:36
and ink you’re scratching your drawings
48:39
into the page there’s something very
48:40
tactile about the act of creating comics
48:45
with you know ink and paper but I also
48:48
know a lot of cartoonists whose work I
48:51
really admire who now create comics on a
48:54
tablet so they’re they’re drawing it
48:57
still at a motion with the hand but it’s
49:01
on a digital tablet as opposed to on
49:04
bristol board right for example so it
49:07
might not be the same kind of Mark and
49:09
to me the issue is kind of aesthetic I
49:11
love marks in which I can sort of see a
49:14
grain in person that seem expressive
49:18
some of those marks might not be as
49:21
easily replicated on a digital tablet
49:23
but there is something about the sort of
49:25
like kinesthetic hand implement motion
49:31
that isn’t isn’t like using stock art to
49:34
create a comic right and there are
49:36
comics that do that right there are a
49:38
bunch of webcomics that do that so I I
49:41
tend to prefer work that isn’t born
49:43
digital but plenty of people think that
49:47
print is a fetish and Scott McCloud
49:50
who’s sort of one of the famous um
49:52
comics theorists who did the book
49:54
understanding comics which is a book
49:56
about comics theory in the form of
49:57
comics told me printed the fetish really
50:00
yeah wow that said service of the other
50:04
part of this answer is that whether or
50:08
not it’s a fetish I think that comics
50:10
are powerful because
50:12
of their stubborn tie to print culture
50:15
so something like Chris where’s building
50:18
stories which came out in 2012 and is a
50:22
big 11 inch x 17 inch by 2 inch box that
50:28
has 14 different comics inside it’s a
50:30
book in a box look it’s sort of like a
50:33
manifesto for print culture right it’s
50:35
sold out its first run at Pantheon which
50:37
is published by Random House so comments
50:41
is in a way saving the idea of the book
50:43
as object today they think most commerce
50:46
can’t be refloat for digital devices for
50:49
example the way most novel skin sure
50:51
like Ulysses is Ulysses is Ulysses
50:53
basically whether you’re reading it in
50:55
hard copy or on the Kindle yep a book
51:00
like Chris where’s building stories
51:02
cannot exist on the Kindle right because
51:05
it’s an object of existence base and has
51:07
a dimension in a different way right so
51:09
in so it’s kind of interesting than that
51:12
because the physical product is so
51:17
important that even though the barrier
51:20
to entry might seem lower because people
51:23
can do it digitally maybe it’s not as
51:26
marketable that way and and so yeah
51:29
ironically the digital and the expansion
51:32
of the digital has made the original
51:35
more valuable or the physical more
51:37
valuable which is very much the opposite
51:39
of what is happening in other forms of
51:41
media yeah I think that’s an a really
51:43
interesting point and you know there’s
51:45
some great web comics as it starts to
51:50
play this is crashing oh my goodness
51:53
yeah um one of my favorite cartoonist
51:57
who works on the web is kate beaton
51:58
who’s canadian and she she actually has
52:00
a bunch of funny comics about canada
52:02
have you heard of her no oh you would
52:05
well I’m guessing I’m hoping you would
52:07
love it so her comic strip is called
52:09
hark a vagrant and it’s online but the
52:13
way most people who work on the web
52:17
actually get money to make a living is
52:21
by then collecting their web comics
52:23
as a printed volume really so
52:26
economically hmm not a lot of webcomics
52:29
even popular ones like Kate Beaton’s are
52:33
viable simply on the web there’s still
52:36
this tie to print culture but the
52:38
exciting part of it is that it’s kind of
52:40
like the underground comics of the 21st
52:43
century right right it’s easily as you
52:46
are mentioning publishable and
52:48
distributable so you know you can do
52:51
your little webcomic at home and slap it
52:53
up there that night right and get a
52:56
response from your community of readers
52:58
and I think there is something powerful
52:59
about that so let’s just promote the
53:03
book again because it’s I could unpack I
53:06
could art I could try to us some of this
53:09
stuff all day its disaster drawn visual
53:12
witness comics and documentary form and
53:15
it’s available through the University of
53:17
Harvard press a hardcover now paperback
53:21
hopefully uh-huh forthcoming yeah I hope
53:24
so and for an academic publisher it’s
53:27
not expensive within the context of
53:31
academic file right it does it should
53:32
last one hundred and twenty dollars so
53:34
it’s not only for libraries I guess
53:36
although i hope the libraries by a dude
53:38
yeah and and presumably there’s there’s
53:41
a lot of it’s not just text in there you
53:43
have a lot of images and i have 60
53:45
something images printed in full color
53:48
yes no it’s quite dorky to brag about
53:51
stuff like that hey color images um but
53:55
it’s hard to get it’s hard with academic
53:59
publishing in the subject because there
54:00
aren’t a lot of examples right it’s not
54:03
like publishing and our history book and
54:05
it’s not like publishing a book that’s
54:06
just prose criticism somewhere in
54:08
between right and especially with stuff
54:10
that was ephemeral as you said that you
54:12
know where do you find it so yeah so
54:14
images and it really sounds like a
54:18
trivia book all of the reviews and stuff
54:21
that I’ve read have been very positive
54:22
about it so sounds like a great read I
54:25
look forward to getting into now that it
54:28
is being officially launched thank you
54:31
by the press so Hillary shoot visiting
54:34
professor in the Department
54:35
english here at Harvard regularly a
54:38
faculty member at the University of
54:39
Chicago thank you very much for doing
54:41
thank you very much if you have any
54:43
questions or comments for the podcast
54:44
its history slam @ gmail.com twitter is
54:47
that dr. Johnny fever and if you’re at
54:50
and you see enrico pallazzo please say
54:52
hi for me thanks for listening to the
54:59
history slam podcast be sure to check
55:00
out active history for more features
55:02
articles and be sure to subscribe on
55:04
itunes
—
Previously published on Activehistory.ca and is republished here under a Creative Commons license.
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