The children brought to rallies are on adult ground, holding signs made for them by other people. Are men with opinions on abortion actually on women’s ground?
When I was a little boy my parents took me to an abortion protest outside of our church where some people from the pro-choice side would also be protesting. My parents explained to me what we “must” believe about abortion as Christians. I never really understood what all was happening, but I could tell it was an important and not wholly agreed upon topic, and I especially loved that TV news vans showed up. More recently, I have taken it upon myself to become educated about the moral aspects of abortion and to decide on my own where I stand. After a good deal of academic study and personal soul-searching I feel I have some level of expertise and a viewpoint that can add to the progression of the debate. But, even after all that study I still feel like a little kid holding a sign someone else made for him.
We bring children to protests and rallies, a world where adults have the strong opinions and the children are treated more like hood ornaments than contributors. Surely, on occasion a child will say something out of their innocence that is utterly profound, but it’s rarely credited to their thoughtful or insight. They are a child speaking on adult’s territory. I thought that as I grew up I would be able to speak on abortion because it was adult territory and I (hopefully) had joined the ranks of adults. Once I really, finally got to true adulthood, I discovered that abortion isn’t so much adult territory as it is women’s territory. I would be welcome to join in the debate as long as I held a sign written by, or at least approved by, a women. To do otherwise risks being labeled a patriarch.
The legality and morality of abortion often centers around a woman’s body, and while a big fan and life-long supporter of women’s bodies I balk at thinking I have the slightest idea of knowing what it’s like to have a woman’s body. The experience of being a woman grants a certain amount of appropriateness and authority to speak on what women can and cannot, should or should not, do with their body. My utter lack of experience in this arena has left me feeling voiceless. Some men, many of whom are fine with patriarchy, have no problem stepping in and feeling like they have authority to speak to women this way; I don’t. This is where my internal dilemma comes from. I have two great desires and I can seemingly only embrace one. First, to be sensitive to women who have been victims of generations of patriarchy and being told what they can and cannot do with their bodies. But, I also want to be taken seriously and respected for my thoughts on abortion. At this point I don’t feel like the child with a sign at the protest because I feel like I don’t even belong at the debate to begin with, and no one brought me here. Like a child, I feel sheepish and insecure in my own point of view.
I’m not meaning to be overly simple, but it feels like the two voices men can easily take on abortion are, “It’s your body and you have rights,” and “Your body isn’t as important as my religious or social views.”
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I’m not meaning to be overly simple, but it feels like the two voices men can easily take on abortion are, “It’s your body and you have rights,” and “Your body isn’t as important as my religious or social views.” What both of these views have in common is that they follow the first half of my dilemma: either you support a woman’s ultimate right to choose or you support some form of patriarchy. Whether these views have major flaws or not doesn’t matter. They are acceptable for men to adopt and voice because they are the standard views; they are accepted as normal. It seems a man cannot offer a softer version of pro-choice, or heaven forbid a pro-life stance, without looking like a patriarchal douche. For instance, I wrote a culminating paper in my undergraduate study on a Feminist Approach to Abortion and I was too scared and intimidated to submit it to conferences or journals because I couldn’t bring myself to tell feminist women that I believed the moral end-all-be-all of abortion was somewhere other than a woman’s rights to her body. In discussing my paper with a female acquaintance at a party I became so flustered when her body language closed up that I backpedalled so far that I didn’t even recognize my thesis. After that her body language became much more friendly. I wasn’t seen as a patriarch, I was safe. On the other hand, when telling my mom about my paper I found myself softening what it said so that I wouldn’t be told that I wasn’t a Christian for my view. What’s a guy to do?
Then I see the call for submission from GMP where men everywhere were encouraged to write and tell their stories of abortion. Men do have experiences with abortion, albeit tangential. These experiences create knowledge and wisdom, and from wisdom comes authority. For the first time I see a ray of hope that I can conquer my dilemma by going between the horns, which is logic-speak for asserting an alternative solution to the two offered in the dilemma. I find myself eagerly awaiting these stories, and I hope to learn from all of the robust perspectives that are represented. All of these unique experiences of men matter, and the knowledge and wisdom that comes from them should matter. If nothing else, then by sharing these stories we can begin the process of claiming some of the abortion process as men’s territory. All of this will be in stark contrast to the media portrayed male role in abortion which is disconnected if existent at all.
If my television tells me anything about a man’s role in abortion, it’s that they only happen in the absence of men in the woman’s life. One of the implicit messages here is if only a man were here the abortion wouldn’t need to happen and the woman and baby would be saved. The other message is often that all abortions should be avoided if at all possible. Those are awful messages, and it further forces the bounds of abortion away from men’s territory. The more men’s roles in abortion are discussed, normalized, portrayed, and acted out, the more men are allowed in. This has already begun in childrearing and pregnancy, and it’s about time we stepped up and did this regarding abortion as well. Maybe men can finally be partners, friends, lovers, doctors, nurses, dads and brothers to the women in their lives who are having to deal with abortion. Hopefully this newfound care, connection and openness around abortion can lessen the isolation, guilt, shame and depression that can accompany it.
Being sensitive is great; however it doesn’t mean I need to question whether or not my perspective on abortion is a legitimate or valuable one.
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I am so hopeful for the future of how our society handles abortion, but I still feel like a little kid. I fear offending women and I fear feeling unheard or undervalued because I don’t have a deep personal story about abortion to share. Some men have those stories and I am glad that we are beginning to look to their stories for wisdom and insight. I don’t have that experience, but I clearly have some serious insecurities and growing up to do, and I don’t think these insecurities are completely unfounded or unique to me. I think a lot of men prefer to err on the side of over-sensitivity to women rather than to possibly offend and look like a patriarchal jerk. Being sensitive is great; however it doesn’t mean I need to question whether or not my perspective on abortion is a legitimate or valuable one. Part of my journey into adulthood that is still in front of me is learning that it’s okay if I offend someone, and if it happens I don’t need to fold or weaken what I said but trust that we can be civil. If I really want to be heard then I need to speak. If I still find myself feeling like a child or feeling voiceless then at least I can start by sharing my fear and discomfort with wanting to add to the moral/political debate over abortion without risking being labeled a patriarch. I guess that’s what this is.
All of the conversations that aid in progress are great, but tweets, blogs and comments aren’t real, they lack a visceral quality. Reality is visceral, and we need to have these important talks in real life. If it hadn’t been for my wife and her ability to listen to me and value what I said and to instill courage in me to grow when I was too fainthearted to do it on my own I wouldn’t be who I am or where I am today. Those conversations were not always easy, but if I can’t talk with her then who can I talk with? I was doubly lucky when I later had an amazing professor who never flinched when I told her I wanted to write from a feminist perspective and helped guide me further along my path. I encourage all men to seek out those people close to them who can have the initial conversations in a safe and caring environment.
Read more on Abortion.
Image of a child yelling in protest through a megaphone courtesy of Shutterstock
Excerpt: “First, to be sensitive to women who have been victims of generations of patriarchy” Didn’t need to read past this point. A true scholar of gender oppression knows that there is no patriarchy, just the gender binary and it oppresses and dehumanizes men as greatly as women (just in radically different ways). I’d love to see any of these patriarchy-peddlers talk about the huge systemic exploitation of 100% exclusively male workers to build the infrastructure. 28,000 men died (and zero women) building the panama canal. I believe in being open-minded, but I don’t want to be so open-minded that… Read more »
Feminists are woman who have been mistreated by “people” how many of them have had abortions and then never regretted it and cried her eyes out. If she didnt? She is a robot. People should look up abortions on the internet an “SEE” what is done to unborn HUMANS. Sick and dying or not,, They will be sickend and with the grace of GOD in heaven they will tell people about what is really going on to our children. Im not yellin im just saying to whoever will listen.
So tell me this. If a women doesn’t want the child and aborts, it’s a choice but if a man aborts that child is killing or even murder? Two of the three below are where an unborn child was (in my eyes murdered) before the age of viability. These men are looking at time in prison where as if any of these women “chose” to abort, they could do so without repercussions much less have the abortion paid for? In #2, he faces “two counts of first degree murder and #3 “attempted murder” of a two month fetus. I should… Read more »
That’s one of the inconsistencies I’ve found with the pro-choice/feminist side of the abortion debate. Pregnancy and fetuses need special protection when women want to carry them to term, but are inconsequential when women want to abort. That places women in charge of determining who is a person worthy of rights and who isn’t, which I believe is the ultimate goal of feminism anyway to give women the power to ultimately decide who is human. Other inconsistencies are why isn’t maternity leave considered illegal discrimination? If oregnancy isb’t special, why isn’t it treated as sick time or under disability law?… Read more »
Very interesting comment.
I would suggest reading anything from Eva Kittay to figure out any “ultimate goals of feminism” and definitely read Marquis’ ‘Why Abortion is Immoral’ to learn about personhood in the contemporary abortion debate. Also, the draft was deemed unfair a long time ago.
When was the draft deemed unfair? By who exactly? Can you support this contention with any specific examples or evidence? I’ve pointed this out many times, this definite tendency to make general observations without backing them up whatsoever. The draft simply hasn’t been considered necessary of late, it certainly hasn’t been abolished or officially dispensed with. You also didn’t say unfair on young men specifically, people get really noticably vague and evasive regarding that particular fact. How long is a long time ago exactly, what era are you referring to?
Yes it’s murder
Abortion is only “women’s ground” if you agree that a fetus is dead and has no human rights prior to birth. If you disagree with that statement (as most pro lifers do) then it’s the ground of anyone with an interest in human rights.
*I do generally agree with not involving young children in political protests though.
That framework is just too simple. At every stage, we’re talking about living tissue. The problem is, there is a meaningful distinction between living tissue and a living being – something that’s alive. At the early stages of development, we’re basically talking about a ‘good’ tumor.
I really doubt that you would refuse to have a fetus in fetu removed simply because you didn’t want to commit murder. I doubt you’d even call it alive, though your definition would indicate that you’d have to.
“I really doubt that you would refuse to have a fetus in fetu removed simply because you didn’t want to commit murder. I doubt you’d even call it alive, though your definition would indicate that you’d have to..” It’s also not my definition, it’s the definition of alot of pro lifers. I’m just pointing out that from their point of view it doesn’t make sense to consider it women’s ground because, according to their perspective, another living human being is involved who has no say in the matter. The trouble with articles like this, and most pro-choice arguments I’ve ever… Read more »
In a democracy, you don’t play games like this. You don’t get to say that only ‘certain’ people get to have a say in laws. You don’t get to say that any issue is ‘women’s territory’. Everyone gets a vote, and trying to tell people that they shouldn’t have a right to that is only going to incur a backlash. Indeed, it is the responsibility of every citizen in a democracy to weigh in on all issues. It may be a woman’s body, but a child is not a woman’s property. Society can give a woman the right (in reality,… Read more »
Sexual reproduction is not democratic, either!
What is your point, exactly? ‘Democracy’ has never meant ‘the right and ability to screw anyone you want’ – that would obvious violate the right to free association. However, Democracy has always quite clearly meant ‘the right and ability to have a say in governance and the passage of laws’.
I’m not even sure if you’re trying to discredit a point I didn’t actually make, or to agree with a point that I didn’t actually make.
In an egalitarian democracy, men and women have equal stakes, equal participation, equal power and voice. But when it comes to sexual reproduction, everything’s skewed by nature. Men’s stakes are low, but their power is high. Women’s stakes are very high, and when we threaten to limit them with legislation, their power is reduced. Nature isn’t just, and where we could use civilization to make things more fair—giving more resources to those who need them, giving the power over decision making to the stakeholders—instead, we use it to bludgeon the rights of women. The question of where a human life… Read more »
Your argument about stakeholders should then carry over to all other aspects of our government and society. Women would no longer have the ability to participate in matters of war or defense since men are the only ones legally in combat. Women in congress would not be able to vote on any DOD legislation and no woman could ever hold the office of President. That’s what you’re advocating and why Soullite’s position is the correct one instead.
Clearly you’re addressing a point that I didn’t actually make. Good luck with that. My point had nothing at all to do with the point at which a child gains consciousness. I wasn’t actually arguing that a fetus should have a say in legislation. I was arguing that all adult citizens do. That part of your statement simply has no bearing on anything that I said. Second, we don’t only let ‘stake holders’ vote – that’s called oligarchy, be it financial, gender or what have you. It was a long, difficult haul for this country to move away from that.… Read more »
A man or boy raped by a woman would have no say in whether they reproduced and would essentially have no power. Would you advocate giving them some power by allowing them to determine whether their rapist is required to have an abortion or carry the child to term?
FWIW, I don’t hate babies – just don’t want any. And I have used birth control diligently all my life to prevent them. Since I’m doing my part, if my birth control fails, why should I be punished?
Titfortat – If the fetus could kill me or damage me for life, that’s more than an “inconvenience.” Besides, it doesn’t have to be dead – it just has to be out of my body. Figure out a way to get it out of me ASAP w/o it dying, and we’re good. John Schtoll – I support a man’s right to refuse fatherhood (including support payments) if he was “oopsed.” I also wish there was a birth control pill for men – for this reason. Jeff – the “unborn child” wouldn’t say squat. It can’t talk or even form a… Read more »
As far as I know, abortion is the only area of society where the person who’s body is put at risk is given full and 100% control of the decisions of that risk, it is the only time that the beneficial outcomes of those decisions are under their complete control. Think of a firefighter, soldier, police officer or any other very dangerous job. Their lives and bodies are put at risk on a daily basis but they don’t have 100% complete control of the outcomes of those jobs. They have to pay taxes on the money they earn, even though… Read more »
Please the % of cops, & soldiers who are actually at risk at any time in their careers is minimal.. Every woman since the dawn of time has had her body & soul irrevocably changed by being pregnant- irrespective of the eventual outcome- so this is 99% a woman’s issue and her finger is on the trigger. From my piece on the subject “Roe Wade says: August 1, 2012 at 5:52 pm Within a marriage my rights to input on producing progeny are multiple times more appropriate than in my former relationships……. ….. I hand you a gun, it’s chamber… Read more »
Violence, War and civil conflict kills millions of people per year, far far more than pregnancy does. Depending on where you live and what military you are in you can face a far far higher risk of death than the average woman does in childbirth. The deaths of U.S Soldiers by fighting is about on par with deaths of women in pregnancy for sheer numbers however the risk itself per soldier is far far greater than a woman in U.S.A would have. Add the military suicide numbers in and soldiers face an even greater risk. I realize you want to… Read more »
One thing is certain, everyone here was a living fetus at one time. After anyone has come into being, in what ever stage of development, there’s only two states anyone can ever be. Alive or dead.
@Kat: Now you know exactly how men feel, being forced into fatherhood against their will. (not the pregnancy part)
This is the reason why I’m terrified of becoming pregnant. There are people who want so badly to protect the “rights” of the fetus that they care nothing about my rights – even if the pregnancy would kill me or damage me for life. This is why I regard fetuses as an enemy. All the pro-lifers have managed to convince me of is that I could be forced into pregnancy and motherhood against my will
@Kat
There is a slight difference between what happens to you(your rights) and what happens to the fetus(no rights). The difference is that you are probably just very inconvienced for 9 months, the fetus is dead. Oh and if you have it completely your way, the sperm donor or better known as father is out of luck for a lifetime. Try to at least not make it a black or white issue because like life, there is a lot of grey.
Let’s embrace the exclusion policy and run with it. Let’s initiate fertility screenings at every rally and protest to ensure that only those who can REALLY get pregnant are allowed to participate. Oh, and make sure to block out any post-menopausal women. After all, this issue hardly affects them, so they have no right to be heard.
Any takers? Didn’t think so.
(EXCEPT FOR RAPE), wanted to say that upfront Women make a choice to be pregnant by having consentual sex, so they are already constenting to having their body used for the purpose of carrying a child , if we as a society state that no one can force someone to use their body and only the person themselves can choose, WHY does this same society do that to men. IF a woman decides to keep the child, we as a society force him (under threat of jail) to support that child with his body. If the body is so sacred… Read more »
No, when I have sex, I am not consenting to get pregnant. When I have sex, I am consenting to sex and sex alone. There is a HUGE difference.
Amber,
Wow, your mindset is very scary and completely unjustifiable. It is no different than saying that you drink alcohol to have fun, and you are consenting to only having fun, not having your liver or kidneys being damaged. Your actions have consequences, whether or not you want them.
Moderator Note: Ad hominem attacks are not permitted. Keep it civil, John.
My perspective is neither about the man or women, it’s that of the unborn child … so in many of these debates, I’m dead in the water.
Tom B ( Christian) .. in solidarity with my work associate Tim (atheist)
You have obvious concern, and that’s admirable. I think the fact that you feel stagnant in these debates is simply because the position of the man and woman are already spoken for. I wonder what the unborn child would say. I wonder what you could say on their behalf
God is love, a defining and ultimate truth for a true Christian. Its my belief that speaking in love for your Lord and others is a practice that pertains to every issue, for every person, all the time. So I say this in love in relation to the issue of abortion: Different opinions on this matter are formed based on the truths we have from our own experience, and as a result they will never be the same. There is no consistency across the street, let alone for all humankind. When speaking about abortion, or any social issue that doesn’t… Read more »
“I thought that as I grew up I would be able to speak on abortion because it was adult territory and I (hopefully) had joined the ranks of adults. Once I really, finally got to true adulthood, I discovered that abortion isn’t so much adult territory as it is women’s territory. “ That depends on whether you believe that ypou have the right and or obligation to speak out or take action on behalf of another who is powerless. People who believe abortion is murder believe that they are preventing murders. Take it further. Would you give up your chair… Read more »
I know the media has a stereotype that abortion is mainly sought by single, young women, often teenagers, but I thought that had been statistically discredited? I know I’ve read a number of times, in different sources, that most women who seek abortions are married with children, and the reason they and their partner want an abortion is because they can’t financially support another child or are happy with their current family size.
Disclaimer: I can’t find the original source so feel free to direct me to some studies that say otherwise.
I’ve heard this before as well, but it doesn’t seem to be supported by one pro-abortion website.
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html
And then from the Washington Post (not necessarily contradictory to the previous study) : ” Six in 10 women who had abortions in 2002 were mothers. “Despite the common belief, women who have abortions and those who have children are not two separate groups,” said Finer.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/18/AR2005071801164.html
Yes I think I’ve seen that statistic too. However, we are not talking primarily about middle class married women having abortions for lifestyle reasons (much as the religious right wants to paint it that way). It’s working class/poor women with limited family income. They may be married but their husbands are unemployed or working minimu wage jobs. I have a married cousin who had an abortion because her husband had said repeatedly he didn’t want more children. They both had children from prior relationships and he was paying child support. They were also broke. She was a waitress and he… Read more »
If you want a fetus inside someone else’s body to go full-term, here’s what you do: Invent a way to transplant it into YOUR body. YOU be pregnant, YOU go through the process of getting it out somehow, and YOU put up with the resulting kid for the next 18 to 25 years.
I agree that legally there should be no way for a man to prevent an abortion. On the flip side, if the mother carries it to term when the father did not want to he should be allowed to get a paper abortion: i.e. when a pregnancy occurs outside the bounds of a relationship (1 night stand or what have you), then since women control 100% of the decision, they should shoulder 100% of the burden too. She who picks the tune plays the piper. If the man wants to volunteer any aid or services, or step in as a… Read more »
Well, maybe the whole controversy “centers” around women’s bodies, but most people who oppose abortion do so because they believe that the fetus being aborted is, in fact a human being with some rights, too, and in whose welfare society has a legitimate interest. Reasonable people can disagree about that, but men having opinions about abortion is no different than non-parents having opinions about child welfare, or non-criminals having opinions about the rights of the accused.
Well, no, actually, it’s not a women’s issue: it’s an issue for anyone who can become pregnant. Since I happen to be among those people, it’s just as much my business as it is most women’s. (And I say most women because there are plenty who cannot conceive. If we’re going by direct impact then I’m not convinced they should be counted.)
That doesn’t address the larger question of who has a right to comment on what issue, but it’s a point that’s almost never raised.
That doesn’t address the larger question of who has a right to comment on what issue, but it’s a point that’s almost never raised. That’s the thing that puzzles me. I’m all for giving damn near anyone and everyone the right to comment on something. It’s a question of how much their opinion/commentary should weight in on the final decision. From what I’ve seen some people think that a man that is trying to talk about abortion automatically equals a man that wants to control women’s bodies. That doesn’t apply to all of us. There is a problem here of… Read more »
I would like to think as man you would be able to see it from this perspective. Imagine you are the father of the potential child? As a man and father I would hope to be at least included in the decision of whether it lives or dies, regardless if it is not my body that is a temporary home for the baby, fetus or whatever your ideology wants to call it.
I have no troubles supporting abortion for women and hope it remains legal n as safe as possible, but will women also step up to the plate n support men and helping them get the right to financial abortion? Women should have the right to their body of course, as should men, they should both also have the right to opt out of parenthood and not be responsible for a child they do not want for 18 years, a responsibility that has a lot of emotional, time, and financial costs. To the women who are asking men to support women’s… Read more »
I agree. In fact, I am against abortion for that reason alone. You don’t give rights to some people and force others into slavery. You don’t say that women shouldn’t have their lives ruined by the choice to have sex and then turn around and say that men totally should, though. I favor equality and fairness over making exceptions. It is true that, by the pro-choice rubric, only women have the apparent ‘choice’. However, that’s simply a framing device. There is another point when both parties have a choice – that is to say, when they both chose to sleep… Read more »
First, to be sensitive to women who have been victims of generations of patriarchy and being told what they can and cannot do with their bodies. But, I also want to be taken seriously and respected for my thoughts on abortion. Honestly I just chose the former because of being told that as a man I have no business in the conversation. At best a lot of women seem to be of the mind that ONLY time a guy can even voice his opinion on abortion is when it’s supportive. I’m sorry but I’m not keen on getting into a… Read more »