As a male feminist, I have to wonder – What part of me is drawn to the romantic idea of chivalry, and what part of me is ready to let it go?
“It is impossible to be Chivalrous without a horse,” said medieval historian Denholm-Young.
This idea of “chivalry” brings up visions of outward shows of respect to women… of mercy toward defeated foes… of a “code of conduct” that gentlemanly knights might follow. The code has been handed down in ink from generations of epic heroes like Roland, El Cid, and Arthur. Modern “chivalry” seems to begin and end with opening doors as a show of gendered politeness. It’s been translated to us through screens for the past few generations by Cary Grant, Tom Hanks or George Clooney.
But as a male feminist, I have to wonder – In a world where women have fought and earned more rightful equality (though there is more to accomplish on that front) – is chivalry necessary or even ethical anymore? What part of me is drawn to the romantic idea of chivalry, and what part of me is ready to let it go?
♦◊♦
It seems like there are multiple camps.
1. The Equal Treatment Camp
This is the camp that sees gender as irrelevant. We should all be treated equally, and with respect. Chivalry originates from a sense of superiority or paternalism… which creates inequality in the long run even under the best intentions. So don’t open doors for women, open doors for people regardless of gender… or don’t. Just be consistent.
2. The Modernized “Code of Conduct” Camp
This is the camp that thinks there’s a new chivalry. The old code doesn’t work for anyone, but maybe a modern code will! Yes, guys should be respectful toward others and have a solid set of ethics; but the way respect is shown involves more “show of vulnerability” and less “show of strength.” Women also get to be in on this code, so it’s not all on the guys to invent or hold to the rules. Paying for a shared dinner is okay in this camp, but often it’s agreed to be seen as a gift with no strings attached. It’s also common for this code to involve a lot more line-item mutual consent in relationships… whereas the old Chivalry code was a broad-based yes/no consent (at best). Because of the emphasis on mutual consent… this code also has built-in room for LGBTQ relationships and the ever popular hetero bro-mances.
3. The Traditionalist-Nostalgic Camp
This is the camp that likes to see their home as a castle, their car as a mighty steed, and their relationships as a heroic-romantic narrative. This camp opens doors, pulls out chairs, and expects everyone to acknowledge the code. It’s perfectly okay in this camp to put women on pedestals, and for women to see themselves as princesses or queens in their own right. This can create some relationship challenges when women “fall” from that pedestal. There are more “love games” based on accepted unknowns in this camp – like playing “hard to get” or “the unrequited/jilted lover” – which can lead to some confusion and lots of drama. This camp’s understanding of relationships is what Hollywood blockbusters show. It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
♦◊♦
Come back. Erin . We miss you. This conversation has alot of intetest and rightfully so. Tberes alot of stuff here to ponder and discuss. Take this and run with it because it neefsmore.
Speaking about benevolent racism, UConn just floated a daring and bold plan to increase black graduation rates. Get this. Build black only housing!! Can you say segregation? Can you imagine the uproar to ensue regarding white only housing??? How about denying girls to play little league? Seems to me i recall the charges of, shall we say sexism? Man. You just can’t make this stuff up anymore. Gives credence to my point how progressives being actually being more racist than they ever thought conservatives are. .What they say and do sounds nicer but the end result is negative benevolency. Can… Read more »
Lol! I thought you were indifferent to the etymology of chivalry Richard? My point of all this is twofold. One is that the idea of chivalry has shaped what a man is supposed to be. An ideal. The Marlboro man if you will. Rightly or not. But it was based on privilege and power. You didn’t get to be a knight on a horse without it. Secondlyif there is anyome thats a racist it is the progressive. This conversation is not about that, albeit a conversation that needs tbe out in the open if we are to progress. I look… Read more »
Just for grins, chivalry isn’t going directly to horses. By the end of the Dark Ages, the mounted man at arms, later the armored knight, was the dominant arm on the battlefield. They got money that way, through war, extortion, and feudal obligations up and down. Then they became Society. Being dominant and all. Chivalry refers to horses because that part of society which was Society lived and died by horses, Even today, in ceremonies of state, royals are on or behind horses. And society was supposed to have manners. At least as regards their equals. Part of that meant… Read more »
Erin, what do you think affirmative action is but benevolent racism. It is couched in terms of fairness for past misdeeds but it doesn’t take into account equality but merely numerical quota. That says minority people aren’t good enough so we have to give tjem extra points just to get them in here and make us look good. A fairer way of doing this would be numerical naming or identification based on qualifications. Basically blind applications. At the final interview you better have a damn good reason why you disqualified the minority because previous to this you had each person… Read more »
What is it with this thing? Anyway, the etymology of the term is irrelevant. Yeah, it had to do with horses. See caballo/caballero. But there is no German, which is to say English, equivalent. Holding doors is hardly an issue with which to discuss chivalry. Most of the time in public, where you’d expect to hold a door for someone else, it’s either an automatic door, or there are two of them to keep the outside temp from influencing the inside temp so, no matter how agile he is, the guy opens the first and the women opens the second.… Read more »
The funny thing about this conversation is that the origin of the word chivalry comes from Latin meaning horsemanship. The Italian word is cavalry and the old french in English is chevalier. All of these are based on ownership and power. That is patriarchy and where women were literally owned beings. Don’t get me started on the king’s privilege on their peasantry especially wedding nights. But all of that was part of chivalry. It was a mindset that during the crusades was glorified as the Christian way of serving with honor. So somewhere along the way this is the innate… Read more »
That is an interesting historical context Mark. Words can and do change meaning with time. “Chivalry”, as defined by a modern context, is more about acts of generosity, or acts of honor, or acts of courtesy, or acts of courage. Not acts of ownership. I don’t think a man wants to ‘own’ me because he opens a door. Just like he shouldn’t think by choosing to cook him a good old fashioned meal of my Great Grandmother’s Chicken Pot pie that i’m subordinate to him.
Probably camp 1. Although chivalry also created inequality for the men too, your life is of less value than her’s for instance.
I am simply 50:50 equal in all areas, help whoever needs help. I want a woman who will probably be smaller than me to also help defend me or go find help, as I will defend her. 2 people defending is better than 1.
*shrug* I though chivalry was just “benevolent sexism”?
There is no such thing as ‘benevolent sexism’. Just as there is no such thing as ‘benevolent racism”.
But that’s what chivalry is Erin, benevolent sexism. To which you just said you really like in a man so as to make you feel good or rather like a woman. Now I’m really confused. You enjoy men holding your door more than if another woman does. I’m not getting this message. And theoretically you can have benevolent racism. Generous and kind slave holders since the beginning of time were benevolent racists. They believed the Greek slaves were not up to Roman standards of being human, or blacks or Persians or whatever. But they treated them well like they would… Read more »
Racism and sexism are extremely difficult to compare I find. Benevolent sexism would be where women were treated more special at times, like women and children saved first in an emergency. In regards to chivalry – “Benevolent sexism is a chivalrous attitude toward women that feels favorable but is actually sexist because it casts women as weak creatures in need of men’s protection.” Wiki goes into it more “Ambivalent sexism is a theoretical framework which posits that sexism has two sub-components: “hostile sexism” and “benevolent sexism”. Hostile sexism reflects overtly negative evaluations and stereotypes about a gender (e.g., the ideas… Read more »
I still don’t consider ‘benevolent sexism’ a real thing. Sexism is sexism. There is no such thing as ‘good’ sexism and using the term ‘benevolent sexism’ seems manipulative and actually more sexist then calling something just ‘sexist’ by itself. But I did look up how the internet defines it. And it says: “Benevolent sexism is a chivalrous attitude toward women that feels favorable but is actually sexist because it casts women as weak creatures in need of men’s protection.” To me, this is not saying that ‘chivalry’ alone is equal to ‘benevolent sexism’, but instead that ‘chivalry’ can be used… Read more »
I have also seen alot of men outright defend porn. Something so outrageously and culturally dominated by male desires and wants that it is defended routinely and I have rarely seen most men question the ethics of the porn they view everyday Nobody forces these women to work in porn, that would be called “pimping”. So being kind to women is not okay but its okay to exploit, objectify, out right abuse and sexually humiliate women Try reading some erotica written by women and for women, you might find they are far more abusive and humiliating than porn is. Not… Read more »
“nobody forces these women to work in porn”.
FrankS, have you never heard about trafficing?
I am shocked by your comment .
Trafficking is not the porn industry.
I am shocked by your ignorance.
“I would *love* to see more of this kind of thoughtfulness a lot of you have put into ‘chivalry’ and extend it to what is ‘fair’ and ‘right’ and ‘equality’ based when it comes to porn and men’s porn habits.” Pay attention more then. There were plenty of men discussing the harms of SOME PARTS of the porn industry on this very site. I myself went pretty in-depth into it. “I will only add that some of you seem to take umbrage with acts of kindness being directed to women, so much so that ‘chivalry’ and the ‘ethics’ of it… Read more »
Erin
Well said
“So being kind to women is not okay but its okay to exploit, objectify, out right abuse and sexually humiliate women in a male-dominate fantasy world from everything from our breasts, our age and our race because it simply makes men happy to do ”
The amount of negative comments about women on this website is astounding .
And FrankS lives with the illusion that no traffick victims ends up in the porn industry. How uneducated about fact of life today in 2016 can you be?
Silke, Not every porn actress is trafficked. Heck there are men who work in porn and I’m guessing no one is wondering if they were trafficked. I think you can make a case for only dealing with mainstream, large, porn studios and high visibility actresses where there is very little chance a person was traffocked or “forced” into it. I put parenthesis around forced because I think very few willingly choose porn. For most, it’s probably economic. At what point does poverty negate free will has always been the one question I grapple with when defending the porn industry. I… Read more »
Silke, you mistake “negative comments about women” for what it actually is, which is treating you like an adult, calling you up on your double standards and expecting you to own your sh_t. Either you are a strong independent woman or you are a delicate snowflake who deserves protection. Which is it?
Stop putting words into my mouth, both of you.
@ Mark
A better example of “benevolent racism” would be the argument that someone is civilizing the savages. One culture is superior so forcing them to adopt it benefits them.
A good point John. Which in my view is what the progressives are doing with buying them off.
Nope. I will embrace chivilary when the dragons fly “again”.
Can the second camp, Code of Conduct, even exist?
If you start with a moral or social code of conduct, in this case Chivalry, and then change everything about it – nullifying gender roles, allowing a flexibility of interpretation, or changing the qualities that one should aspire to – it’s not Chivalry anymore. Whatever-it-is may have a lot of merit, but has become so different from the ideal you’re supposedly preserving, you might as well abandon the construct entirely. Why we cling so desperately to ways of life that we don’t actually want to live out is utterly beyond me.
I treat people with the same courtesy I would expect in return – regardless of gender. I am just as likely to try to help a man struggling as I am a woman. I guess I lean more towards the first group than the second.
What I find frustrating is that there are women who want it both ways – they want to be treated as equals but want to keep certain elements of chivalry that they like. Can’t have it both ways.
Agreed.
Be nice to everyone instead of using gender to denote how a person should be treated.
What I find frustrating is that there are women who want it both ways – they want to be treated as equals but want to keep certain elements of chivalry that they like. Can’t have it both ways.
Even more frustrating when so called progressives do this. They want to be treated as equals….unless the inequality benefits them then they want to keep it.
Well, I’m a woman who doesn’t think that wanting to be treated with equality, and enjoying when men open doors for me, makes me some kind of monster. Of course women want to be treated with equality. But I would be lying if I didn’t say that it’s actually extra nice when a man opens a door for me vs another woman. And while I certainly believe in opening doors for people regardless of gender, I’ve opened doors for plenty of men, I think it’s really awesome when men show respect and kindness by being chivalorous. Especially in dating where… Read more »
Never expect from someone else, what you, yourself refuse to freely give.
I think some people are taking issue with the ideas of equality. I am guessing you refer to liking gendered acts of kindness that make you feel special. A man open’s a door for you. I would also guess you try to be equal and do the female version of gendered acts of kindness for men. In the end you and men both do equal amounts of effort into gendered acts. I guess some men may think you are wanting a more one-sided approach where men do more acts of making her feel special whilst she receives but does not… Read more »
“Never expect from someone else, what you, yourself refuse to freely give.”
Please tell me what I’m expecting that I don’t give in return?
Equal, but be “extra nice to me”….’cause I’m a girl.
What do you give…(that men actually want)….in return to make the social transaction “Equal”?
Therein lays the slippery slope……The road to “The animal farm” “All Animals Are Equal / But Some Are More Equal Than Others.”
I think Erin is saying in some areas she wants gendered treatment which she benefits, and in other areas she does nice things for her partner. In the end it’s equal-effort, but still gendered. Not be “extra nice to me” but more like “do X nice things for me, and I do Y nice things for you”.
Where did I call you a monster? Erin, please take a step back and see how contradictory you are being. You say you want to be treated as an equal, but you also say that a man / men should open doors for you to help you feel like a woman. You’re expecting gender-based privilege and calling it equality. Don’t you see what a contradictory message men are getting these days? Without going off subject, it’s the same attitude that says “I want to be treated as an equal, but you can pay for dinner. You must pay attention to… Read more »
Okay, where did I say *you* specifically said I was a monster? All I said is that some of you guys *act* like I’m a monster because they think it’s nice that a man opens a door for them. Are you seriously telling me you don’t think it’s nice when a woman does something nice for you? And no, I never said men *should* do anything. Infact, I actually said that if you don’t want to open doors for women, don’t! You should never so anything you don’t want to do. I certainly don’t want men in my life who… Read more »
You responded to me directly. Who else would the “monster” comment be directed at?
Interesting that you didn’t respond to Danny’s comment below – he got what I meant, why are you still struggling with it after three weeks?
No, I didn’t respond to you directly. I simply responded to a thread of comments within the conversation. The ‘monster’ comment was direct to the general attitude that I’m somehow ‘wrong’ because I like when men treat me with curtsey and respect.
And no, there is nothing ‘interesting’ about not responding to every single man about every single comment they make every single time they share their perspective. I’m not struggling with anything. You clearly are.
Well, I’m a woman who doesn’t think that wanting to be treated with equality, and enjoying when men open doors for me, makes me some kind of monster. You’re right and that is not what Frank is saying. Its one thing to enjoy men doing those things for you while wanting to be treated equally. But if you were expecting men to do those things for you because you are a woman, ie you felt entitled to that treatment because of your gender, then yes that would make you a monster. Of course women want to be treated with equality.… Read more »
@ Erin “And in all honesty, tons of men out there hold their own expectations around what it means to be a woman, what it means to be feminine and how good women behave.” And these men aren’t immune from criticism either in many cases. How many men here have been criticized because they believe that a woman shouldn’t have multiple sexual partners? How many men here have been criticized for wanting mail order brides because they want a traditional woman? How many men here have been criticized (yes even by you) for wanting women who look a certain way… Read more »
I held the door open for the unknown person behind me. It turned out to be a female and she lit into me about how she can open her own door, blah, blah, blah.
All I tried to do was be nice to a stranger. Never again. Never again.
I’ve had that happen to me as well. But it’s not going to prevent me from doing it again. I’m not going to allow someone like that dictate what I do or don’t do. With comments like hers, she reflects who she is but what I do, open a door, reflects who I am.
I’m with Tom here. IF I hold a door for a woman it is not for chivalry nor do I want sex from her. We’ll maybe I do but it’s not having anything to do with the door. If I hold a door for a fellow it is absolutely doesn’t mean I hope for sex with him either! So I’m not understanding your point Erin. Except for the last part about being with someone who is compatible with your inner beliefs.
I don’t understand what’s so confusing about what I said. I sure hope you don’t only hold doors open for women you want to have sex with. That’s good. But a woman is wrong if it makes her feel good when a man holds a door for her? I don’t get the anger about this simple act of kindness.
I think people want to know why it makes you feel good. To many of us it as a basic act of kindness that is gender-neutral. Usually whoever is closer holds it open. I don’t understand how a man doing this for his woman is seen as extra special than if she did it for him?
How she feels is how she feels. She hurts no one and joy is such a fleeting and rare thing in the world. Find it where you can and don’t deny others theirs. I accept what she says as the way she feels. That’s enough.
Some of us want to know more about people than simply assume it’s enough, cuz that’s how she feels. She doesn’t have to answer, but she’s also talked quite a few times on how rare to her it seems men will listen to women. So asking questions is how we learn about others, it helps us to better understand others which should lead to less misunderstandings. There are other women out there like Erin and it would be handy to know why it makes them feel special and figure out a compromise if you are the more egalitarian style person… Read more »
Erin,
As I said, when I held the door open for the unknown person behind me I meant I didn’t know if it was a man or a woman. This was at 7AM at a gas station and sex with an unknown person (who had a 50% chance of being a man) was not even in my mind. Why do you think men only do nice things to get sex? Misandry much?
I have never had a man yell at me for holding the door open for him.
Where did I ever say that men only do nice things to get sex? All I said was that it was good that men opened doors without the object to get sex. Why are you calling me a misanderist? Did I accuse you of misogyny? No. Your attack is unwarranted. I think you were looking for a reason to attack though since you are clearly criticizing women and then going on to say that men don’t do the kind of things women do. Yet you call me a misanderist.
I don’t indulge in chivalry anymore, especially in an environment that refuses to admit that men have an equal but different set of problems to deal with. If I take you out, bring your wallet and be prepared to pay half whether I asked you out or not. And please spare me your bluff about not respecting a man that asks but doesn’t treat you, because I have seen that sentiment abandoned as quickly as your clothes at the foot of my bed.
I’ve quit being chivalrous also. About the 20th time I offered my seat to a woman who accepted it and didn’t say thank you was enough for me. I guess you could say that I’ve found that there were no women worthy of being treated with chivalry.
Is that true for men too John? Are there no men who are worthy of being treated with chivalry too?
I think how you stereotyped these camps reveals some of your own biased and are not accurate reflections of how other people would define them. I’m technically more traditional, I want to be with a man that wants to open a door for me or pull out a chair. But I do not want to be a ‘princess’ or a ‘queen’ or be put on a pedestal. I just want to feel like a woman with him. I don’t want to feel like a buddy he is going out with that he wants sex from. I want to feel like… Read more »
You are entitled to your archaic beliefs.
Just what is “archaic” about what she is saying?
She clearly state that at the end of the day, it’s all about selecting someone who share similar beliefs and values as you do…
Also, how does someone such as yourself have the chutzpah to invalidate how another person wishes to be treated? This is what I find truly archaic and ignorant.
Thank you Jules! I’d love to hear Amanda’s response to your question. And I loved that you used the word ‘chutzpah”. *grin*. Lets be clear about something Amanda, telling me i’m ‘entitled’ to my beliefs but throwing in the zinger about how they are ‘archaic’ shows that you actually don’t think I’m entitled to live my life the way I want. You’re attacking me for what reason? Exactly which part of my response was offensive to you or as Jules asked ‘archaic’? Did you miss where I clearly stated that I don’t want to be treated like a ‘princess’ or… Read more »
I suspect it’s unethical because your comment isn’t clear. You say chivalry is both kindness and something that makes your significant other feel special. Are we to assume that you should only be kind to your SO. I suspect that there are aspects of traditional chivalry you’d equate with politeness / kindness and others you’d equate with being special. If a man gives up his seat for a stranger woman on a bus, but won’t give it up to a stranger man,we might consider it a kindness, but is it ethical to be kind only to women? That would be… Read more »
What part isn’t clear? I like when a man treats me with chivalry. I want to be in a relationship where men show me kindness. I don’t mind performing traditional acts myself like cooking him a good meal or even doing his laundry. I open doors for men and women alike. I get an extra nice feeling when a man opens a door for me vs the feeling of camaraderie I get when another woman does. What are you confused about? I think the truth is that if a man displayed the characteristics of chivalry toward another man, there would… Read more »
Should you open doors for your man though since you want to make him feel special? Or is the specialness gendered?
What is “feelings like a woman” like? Or a man?
Every human being wants to feel special. Especially with your romantic partner. We all do things to make our partners feel special. Sometimes there are things that make our partner feel special that doesn’t do much for us but we still do them because we like making our partner happy and we don’t find the act offensive. Should the guy I’m dating be able to cook just because I can?For every meal I cook should he cook me an equal meal? Should I be able to change my oil just because that’s a talent he has that he likes to… Read more »
I think you misunderstand my meaning. I am trying to understand if you prefer gendered specialness or just specialness based upon individual tastes. Eg, gendered would be a MAN has to open the car door for the woman. And she would also do things for him that are seen as gendered to make him feel special. I am unsure of what feeling like a man is meant to feel like. What does feeling like a woman feel like? What is the unique feeling between the genders? “I’ve dated guys that hated doing their own laundry and I would do theirs.… Read more »
Do you not feel like a woman if your chosen doesn’t open a door or pull out a chair? How can you “make” your mate feel like a man. That implies only you can make him feel something he doesn’t. I certainly feel like a man. Whatever that means. No one can make me feel anything but. Maybe I’m not manly man enough in their version of how I should be but I could care less about that. I already feel manly enough for me. Now you can generate feelings in me of being special to you. I get that.… Read more »
Mark, lets look at it this way. When a man and a woman are in a relationship, they both do things that either add to the relationship bank, or take away from the relationship bank. Something that adds to the relationship bank? Having an amazing sex session. Something that takes away from the relationship bank? Fighting for the 20th time about not putting the dirty dishes in the dishwasher. This is the natural ebb and flow of a relationship. No one is perfect or anything but at the end of the day, there needs to be more positives in the… Read more »
I like the one where women open doors for us…
To me, does not matter which camp a guy is in as long as its the camp of his choosing and not dictated by any norm.
Yeah. That doesn’t happen enough. I don’t know how many times I let a lady walk through the door first and she let’s it shut in my face. Or even better I hold the door for her and she walk through it and on without acknowledging it and with the common courtesy of a thank you. I generally always say out loud “why you’re certainly welcome!” Hope they get a clue somewhere along the way.
I’ve had women AND men do that to me Mark. And I do the same exact thing. I respond to their retreating back with a “you’re welcome”. Women are not the only ones that can be rude and just because there are rude people, it does not stop me from being who i want to be and thinking of others.
I agree. I’m in the first 2 modern versions of chivalry. I open and hold doors for both genders equally. It’s called being civil to one another. I also begin with coming from a place of vulnerability and graciousness. It’s called good behavior and wanting social connection. If I am rebuffed or taken advantage of for that then I switch my tactic to strength as I do not want social connection more than the superficial with you for doing that. The last one is what many people think of being civil but it’s not. It’s basic quid pro quo. It… Read more »
The photo says it all. Leave chivalry in the medieval fair parking lot. Basic etiquette and a genuine sense of common decency go a long way.