Rick Morris responds to Tom Matlack.
Like many others, I read with disgust of the release terms for Gulnaz, an Afghan woman imprisoned for the crime of rape. Unsurprisingly, she was not the one who committed the crime; she survived it. Tom Matlack, admirably quick off the draw, has already responded to this story here. In his piece, Tom asks several questions which I feel deserve a better response than comments on the blog might permit. I will be responding partially based on my own experience in rural Helmand province.
What did we spend a trillion dollars on in Afghanistan if this treatment of women still goes on?
There are many things right with Afghan culture (or, more accurately, cultures). There are also many, many things wrong. The status of women in Afghanistan is generally very poor. For example: the name of a man’s wife is generally considered not to be the business of outsiders, and asking that question may be considered a fairly serious insult. Rural Pashtun men regularly do not know the true names of their mothers or young daughters.
Apologists will point to a generation of conflict in which rape was used regularly as a weapon of war and to the fact that the Taliban was initially started to protect Afghan women from rape. But it’s simply true that the low status of women goes far beyond the desire simply to protect them; it’s also about controlling them. As with many other fundamentalist societies, women are viewed as culpable for tempting men.
How could we spend so much money there with apparently little result for Afghan women? Well, it’s simply true that we have limited resources and many problems. Stability has been the first and primary goal, and I think that’s correct. If religious totalitarianism controls the country (or at least the countryside), Afghan women will forever be limited to what we see today. If religious totalitarianism is challenged, the potential at least exists for Afghan women to gain rights (as they generally have since the invasion). While Afghanistan will never take its place at the table without empowering and liberating its women, trying to build schools for girls or to change laws will be unsuccessful if the liberal judges are killed and the schools blown up. Eliminating the extremists is a necessary precursor to women’s liberation. Unfortunately, US policy in Afghanistan has only started to effect significant change outside the large cities in the last two or three years. Rural women’s rights are far off.
A small point for hope: an Afghan acquaintance who had once worked for the central government in Kabul told me that his department received mandatory training focusing on the rights of women. He told me that the training emphasized that women were equal to men and should be given the same treatment under the law. Perhaps change hasn’t happened yet, but seeds are being planted.
Do we as Americans have the right to judge another completely different culture when it comes to the treatment of women?
Of course we do. This does not exculpate us of the misogyny present in our own culture, but Afghan women really do have it dramatically worse than American women, and there are far fewer critical voices in the various cultures of Afghanistan. The first question, though, is this: what do we, as a country, do with that judgment? Do we simply exclude Afghanistan until it’s up to snuff? Do we turn a blind eye, welcome Afghanistan to the table, and hope that women’s liberation osmoses into Afghanistan? Do we take a third option? The second question is this: what do we, as individuals, do with that judgment?
I would argue that as a country, we’re probably doing nearly all we realistically can for Afghan women. I went to Afghanistan with the military with the hope that eliminating the Taliban would create breathing room for change. If we can keep the schools open and functioning, we can help Afghanistan create a generation with exposure to the outside world. As an individual, you might consider helping Spirit of America.
Why did the documentary film get black-balled instead of used as way to win the freedom this innocent woman?
I don’t doubt that political reasons were involved, as the article states, but it seems pretty plausible to me that members of the European Union were genuinely concerned about the safety of these women. Many Westerners seem to have a hard time believing that Afghans are not totally cut off from the world, but Afghans do often receive our news and watch our movies. Comments our politicians make about Afghanistan are heard (sometimes in garbled form) by Afghans.
The Bradley Manning debacle, you may recall, led to the Taliban attempting to use WikiLeaks to identify collaborators. Many people Stateside seemed doubtful that this could really happen, and I think this is simply our cultural privilege: we can ignore Afghanistan, if we choose. Afghanistan cannot ignore us. Our national discussions have an international audience. The leadership of Afghan extremists would undoubtedly have seen this documentary, had it been released. Whether that would be good or bad is, I suppose, a subject for debate.
Does the treatment of women as property in Afghanistan in any way provide a mirror for lingering attitudes here in American?
Women are viewed as public property by many Americans. We see this in cat-calling, victim-blaming, slut-shaming, and the obsessive focus on the personal lives of various celebrities. (Obviously, women are not the only ones who receive this attention, but it does seem disproportionate to me.) A friend of mine recently defended her slut-shaming as an attempt to keep her own value high. I found it pretty troubling that, even in America, a woman would feel that in order to maintain demand for herself she has to reduce supply. So viewing female sexuality as a threat to our society or our relationships is certainly something Americans have in common with Afghans. The primary difference, again, is that there are many American voices challenging these perspectives.
As a guy who likes to think about manhood and goodness what can I possibly make of this story?
We should help. Decide for yourself how.
—Photo isafmedia/Flickr
Is Michael Moore going to write a book called “Stupid Arabic Men” or “Stupid Saudi Men” or “Stupid Afghan Men” or “Stupid Islamic Men” or any thing of the sort anytime soon? I don’t think so. Bloody hypocrite.
When men truly love women they will treat them well. Afghan,American, English.
Name a single society that is controlled by Islamic totalitarianism that does not oppress all non-Muslims, male and female, and all Muslim women. Such does not exist. Try announcing how happy you are that you converted from Islam to Christianity or (if you want to get slaughtered like a rabid dog in the street even faster) Judaism. You will be dead before your next meal. Women’s rights are human rights. Totalitarian Islam proudly stomps on human rights of everyone except for Muslim males. There is simply no way that Islamic women will ever have any rights resembling equal rights… Read more »
Name a single totalitarian society where *anyones* human rights are respected??
Islam isn’t really the problem here. Poverty is.
“Name a single totalitarian society where *anyones* human rights are respected??”
OK. Saudi Arabia is an example.
Saudi is controlled by an Islamic totalitarian regime, is not terribly poor, males can travel, work, drive, and shop without the severe oppression faced by girls and women, and without the threat of being killed faced by non-Muslims.
So, obviously, the problem with the treatment of women in Afghanistan is not just poverty. The problem clearly is Islamic totalitarianism, which is different than other forms of totalitarianism. Such regimes specifically target women and non-Muslims for the greatest oppression rather than oppressing everyone equally.
That should have been “the problem CAUSING the poor treatment of women in Afghanistan is not just poverty.”
No, Saudi Arabia is not an example of that. I refer you to Amnesty International’s information on human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia: http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/saudi-arabia
I also refer you to Human Rights Watch’s extensive information on Saudi Arabia: http://www.hrw.org/search/apachesolr_search/Saudi%20Arabia
Your links confirm the fact that that Saudi Arabia oppresses women, dissidents, and people of other religions, but not non-dissident Muslim (Sunni) men – which is exactly the point I made.
Not to mention that Saudi Arabia is quite well off as countries go.
The rights of non-dissident Muslim (Sunni) Men are indeed respected there… so long as they stick to the mould set for them by their society. When they step outside that role in any way the consequences are just as severe as for a woman.
Noone has it all that great in a totalitarian society except the men and women at the top. I doubt the male slave classes of the arab world would agree with your assessment of their rights. Its not anti woman, its anti human.
Rick thanks for these well thought out responses to my off the cuff questions and for sharing your real world experiences in Afghanistan. Sometimes its all too easy to generalize from a distance back here in the US without actually listening to those who have first hand accounts of what we are talking about.
It’s very easy to control poor and uneducated people (this also applies to North America, et al); this is what is being done to Afghan women by men and their government; they have it more extreme. It is a clever system devised by sociopathic men to ensure male power dominates and patriarchy prevails; because you know – there…everything is centralized around men’s balls and how best to serve their infantile needs. They get a chance at playing God. The more Afghan people worship their God, the more they worship men. Everything is so corrupt over there. To bring women out… Read more »
“It is a clever system devised by sociopathic men to ensure male power dominates and patriarchy prevails; because you know – there…everything is centralized around men’s balls and how best to serve their infantile needs.” The hell it is. You really think Mohammad sat down and tried to work out how best to opress women? Or all the Taliban wanted to do was make people’s lives a misery? When large groups of people start committing human rights abuses like this theres usually a little more involved than men behaving badly. I’d like to see you grow up and live in… Read more »
“You really think Mohammad sat down and tried to work out how best to opress women? ” Mohammad was a sociopath…he dominated women; historically, he is known to have had 13 wives/concubines and took one nine-year old girl as his wife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad). You see that as empowering women??? What planet are you from? He was a spontaneous law-maker and made things up as he went along. He figured that if 13 wives and little girls would satisfy him, then that would be good enough for “his people” – men. Women aren’t people, they’re sex toys. Human rights abuses there relies… Read more »
While what you say is true about his methods that still doesn’t speak to his motivation. He wanted power and control and that’s how sought it. He used misogyny to achiece his goal of power. Misogyny was not the goal itself. That’s what I think is a big problem. Thinking that “oppressing women” is the sole goal and motivation for the reason these things happen. Yes their actions are oppresive to women but that doesn’t mean they wake up one day saying “I want to oppress women” you’re wrong. Its more like “I want power and one part of achieving… Read more »
Thats one way of putting it, another way would be to point out that he was able to provide for 13 women who weren’t able to provide for themselves. Sure one of them was nine, or as could be said back then, a quarter way through her life. He wrote those laws because he thought they would make the world a better place. While I agree that the Koran leans heavily on traditional gender roles it places heavy responsibility on men to care for women and children, not to mention mandatory acts of charity. If all he was interested in… Read more »
“Let’s not forget to support men in this endeavor while we’re looking to liberate women.”
So glad to see that it’s recognized that both The Afghan Male and The Afghan Female are both products of the country and society that the have been born into raised in and live within.
So women have to be educated out of illiteracy? So do the vast majority of Afghan males.
The cultural and social chauvinism that keeps being displayed is one example that I hope does not get put on any future Afghan Curriculum.
“islamophobia” is getting to be like “racism”; a word used to end argument when the speaker has jacksquatall else to go on. Phobia implies irrational. Fearing social and political structures which function as they do in Astan, Pstan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt, for starters, is pretty rational. There are forty-plus soldiers wounded at Ft. Hood who could tell you about whether islamophobia is rational or not. The reason women have it so bad in these cultures is that a good many men are irredeemable buttheads who like it that way. We can talk forever about causes but unless we stipuate… Read more »
The big picture is uncomfortable for so many to look at. They do like looking at a single brush stroke and saying it mars the whole image. So – economics and poverty have to be addressed. That means addressing per capita income on a daily basis – health care and mortality rates – lets not forget the increased number of disabled due to over 30 years of conflict funded by the Soviet Union and counter funded with Iran Contra , Ollie North and Ronny Raygun. And don’t forget the unexploded ordnance and mine fields that block land usage and continue… Read more »
“Do we as Americans have the right to judge another completely different culture when it comes to the treatment of women?” I’m not American, but if you’re going to judge another culture, you should be willing to judge their circumstances too. The reason women are hidden and covered up in Afghani society is because they’re supremely at risk. Women in third world economies *cannot* provide for themselves. There could never be a slutwalk in Kabul, not because the men are too uptight, or because their religion is opressive, but because marriage and fidelity are a very practical matter of life… Read more »