The tragedy of traditional masculinity is that it shortens men’s lives—and that it does so in the name of making them better husbands, fathers, brothers, and sons.
A study last month revealed a truth many of us have long suspected: men with “macho” attitudes are more reluctant to seek health care—and as a result experience shorter life expectancy and greater medical problems—than men who hold less traditional views. According to the Rutgers University researchers, men who believed in rigid gender roles (like the idea that women should be homemakers while men work) were 46 percent less likely than their more progressive peers to seek out vital life-saving preventative health care.
We take it for granted today that women outlive men, forgetting that in pre-modern times the reverse was often true. Death in childbirth was more common for women than death in war was for men; in many societies there were more widowers than widows. Think of the wicked stepmothers and single fathers who are ubiquitous in the Grimm fairy tales, and think about what must have happened to Cinderella’s mom. Women have only consistently outlived men since the advent of modern medicine not much more than a century ago.
Men aren’t dying earlier because their bodies are inherently more frail than women’s. Men die earlier because of poor lifestyle choices, most of which are rooted in the destructive rules of traditional masculinity. Two of the most basic of those “man laws” or “guy codes”:
- Don’t display weakness
- Take risks
As any insurance agent will tell you, young men are more likely to be reckless behind the wheel and to die in the resulting accidents. They are also more likely to be murdered, to commit suicide, and to overdose. These statistics hold true across racial and class lines. And though we live in a culture that often sees men as more expendable than women, the chief culprit in so many of these untimely deaths is the demanding macho ethos. From small boys “double-dog-daring” one another to jump off roofs to drag-racing teens, that ethos insists that “real men” are heedless of their safety. The toll in blood and heartbreak is incalculable.
Statistically, men take fewer overt physical risks as they transition into middle age. But aging men aren’t immune from the pressures to live up to the guy code. Where once they proved their toughness by driving fast or playing violent sports, they now measure their manhood by their willingness to ignore pain and other signs of illness. As this new Rutgers study has shown, there’s a direct correlation between the degree to which a man clings to these outdated and destructive rules and his refusal to take care of himself.
♦◊♦
This is deeply personal to me. All four of my great-grandmothers reached their 80s, as did both of my grandmothers. My two grandfathers died at 44 and 62, and three of my four great-grandfathers never saw 65. My dad died of stomach cancer at 71. My wife’s father died of a heart attack at 63. My daughter has two doting grannies, but will never know her parents’ fathers. And in almost every instance, these men would have lived longer had they taken better care of themselves. My father-in-law and my maternal grandfather drank themselves to death. My father’s father drove too fast on a foggy English road one morning decades ago and ploughed head-on into a bus. And my own Dad, as sweet and non-macho as he was in so many ways, ignored too many of his symptoms until it was too late.
Both statistics and anecdotes tell me my family isn’t that unusual.
I’m not angry at any of these men who left too soon. The decisions they made to take risks or to ignore pain were theirs, of course, but they were made in concert with an ethos that few of them had the opportunity to question. They weren’t given the opportunity their sons and grandsons have been given: the chance to reevaluate the masculine myth and its cruel insistence on relentless disregard for health and well-being.
In just a few months, I will have outlived my father’s father. That’s a haunting thought, especially as I have a very young daughter. Heloise is only 2; my wife and I took a long sweet time to become parents. If I am to see my little girl grow middle-aged, I am keenly aware I need to make different decisions than my father and grandfathers made before me. I can’t prevent every accident, of course, and even the most careful attention to diet, exercise, and doctor visits isn’t a perfect prophylaxis against untimely death. All any of us can do is improve our odds. And improving those odds means letting go of the foolish masculine ideal that demands we treat our bodies as if they were indestructible.
One of the defenses of the macho ethic is that it encourages men to be strong and tough to protect and defend their families and communities. Even if that were true, you can’t protect if you’re not present. The tragedy of traditional masculinity is that it shortens men’s lives; the scandal is that it does so in the name of making them better husbands, fathers, brothers, and sons.
We need to remind men that part of being a “real man” is being mentally, emotionally, and physically present for the people who love and rely upon us. Being present—and staying present—requires us to be better stewards of our bodies and our spirits. It doesn’t mean hypochondria or endless introspection. It means remembering that our value doesn’t lie only in our capacity to defend or to provide. It lies in our capacity to love, to connect, and to nurture.
We can do none of those things if we aren’t there.
Men are dying early mainly due to the stress of making good money and doing misc. things as well. Making twice the effort than reasonable takes its toll.
I think oth men and women need to grow up and take responsibility for words and communication Many people are using others for weakness and being two faced with other mature good will adults. This is why so many adults complain about the awful exlusiveness in the world …. being popular, mean, and plain Alpha. This is why there is so much disease and unkindness in the world.
That is great writeup Hugo. I like it. Am doing some search on such information for a book am writing and your work is great.
God bless you
Tony
From Kenya
Somehow masculinity is never a good idea. For Schwizer men only get better to the extent that they become more like women. And of course every time he denigrates masculinity his articles are echoed all over the feminist blogs. Men know better. I am 42 now, and I take a lot of risks. I’ve got a fine 130hp motorcycle – and damn does it go fast in traffic. I know actuaries tell me frequent motorcycling shortens lifespan by a good 5%. I shoot guns recreationally. I go to the doctor once per decade whether I need it or not. Maybe… Read more »
Men are either buffons if they exhibit male characteristics such as the instinct to hunt, provide or protect or they are weak if they love and nurture.
How about doing both in a confident and sophisticated manner that is truly the essence of who the man is? Why can’t we give into our instinct to provide and protect the people we love and also show emotion and be there mentally and physically to these same people.
We need to stop considering men as masculine or more feminine in their ways and just be ourselves.
We are our worst enemies.
Re. the flu, I want to repeat something that I’ve already said in a larger post.
“Man flu” is a myth that is propagated by women, the idea is that when men get the flu, its not real and its to be mocked. “Man flu” is evidence of a wider problem in the way that women view and objectify the men in their lives and male bodies as work and sacrifice objects.
What the hell is “man flu?”
Nevermind. Wikipedia to the rescue.
What a strange term – I’ve always found the exact opposite (and Hugo seems to be saying the same). Personally I’ve finally gotten my husband to believe that I know what I’m talking about when it comes to drugs and sickness, but he still refuses to go to the doctor. I wouldn’t mind if he was a bit more of a hypochondriac so I didn’t have to bug him about it. I refuse to make appointments for him – I’m not his mom.
Bec.
Ref the flu and young folks. I think the last time that happened was in the Great Flu Epidemic 1917-1919.
Since then, there have been no reports of disproportionate numbers of flu victims among young men. Either it didn’t happen or it didn’t count, being men and all.
But, as I said, it was public medical authorities who made the point, not me. Take it up with public health. Maybe they figured young men were disposable in place of women, kids and old folks. Wonder where they got that idea.
Here is another side of the coin, my father started out with little, he got a scholarship to a good school and ended up a CEO. He worked his ass off, thats the only way to become a CEO and he died youngish from a heart attack. The four of us that he left behind got to start off at a certain level thanks to him, none of us have to work in the male glass cellar and risk our health and bodies doing so and my mother has plenty of private healthcare for her later years. It was a… Read more »
Wow. I’m a little surprised at all the backlash to this one. I think the point Hugo is making is a valid one for the most part. I think you’re off-base a little in assuming the only reason guys don’t go to the doctor is because of the “macho man” attitude. I’m not macho by traditional standards. I’m out of shape, my wife out-earns me and I don’t know the first thing about working on cars. Yet I do everything in my power not to go to the doctor’s office. I do it because I don’t like the doctor and… Read more »
For me Its what he is not saying, his track record and the crowd he brings with him. His research is political advocacy, which points to a politically correct answer. Here is something more helpful, for example… The American Journal of Public Health (5/03) has declared that men are in a “silent health crisis.” Almost every chronic illness affects men more often than women. Men account for 80-95% of homeless adults, job deaths and suicide deaths, are more likely than women to have mental disabilities but less likely to be treated for them, and die younger and have higher mortality… Read more »
For me Its what he is not saying, his track record and the crowd he brings with him. His research is political advocacy, which points to a politically correct answer. Here is something more helpful, for example… The American Journal of Public Health (5/03) has declared that men are in a “silent health crisis.” Almost every chronic illness affects men more often than women. Men account for 80-95% of homeless adults, job deaths and suicide deaths, are more likely than women to have mental disabilities but less likely to be treated for them, and die younger and have higher mortality… Read more »
Yet and still we are supposed to believe that medical care is “all about teh menz”. I’m not sure how far its gotten but I’ve seen in a few places where the lifes of Warren Ferrell is trying to push for a Council for Men and Boys in the White House. The things you point out here Male Positive (and others) are serious issues that need to be addressed but good luck with that when everytime you turn around there are people who want to do nothing but whine about all the privilege that men have and tell them to… Read more »
Hi Danny, here is Farrell talking about it.. “Joshua Dubois, the White House director of Faith-based and Neighborhood initiatives, has said his office cannot take responsibility for moving this through,” said Farrell. “The reason he gave us was that he was focused on fulfilling what he was already assigned to do, which was to focus on fatherhood and marriage, proposals that Obama has suggested for funding as of last Fathers Day.” Farrell’s proposal currently is sitting in Obama’s Chief of Staff William Daley’s office. “They have acknowledged that they have received the proposal plus about 35 letters of endorsements from… Read more »
But I think Hugo’s main point was men need to take care of themselves so they can be around to take care of their family. And I see nothing controversial about that. One problem I have with it is that that wording only serves to reinforce the notion that men are only useful for as long as they can provide (so they should work on their health so that they can provide longer). Reminds me of a story I read at the Guardian (I think) a year or so ago where the writer said that men owed it to women… Read more »
Useful = being of use or service, advantageous, helpful, producing material results, supplying needs. (from the dictionary)
I think both men and women want their spouse/partner to be useful, otherwise what’s the point?
If your wife doesn’t provide sex or take care of the children, is she useful as a wife/mother? I think most guys would say no.
But again it shouldn’t be treated like usefulness is the reason for wanting them to live longer? How would people react if the breast cancer research was pushed as a way to keep women alive longer so they can be around longer to provide for their husbands and kids? Or that breast health is important because a woman loses her breasts to cancer then she is of no use to her husband? In fact a lot of the efforts to raise awareness for beast cancer (or many health issues that predominantly or only effect women) are usually from the perspective… Read more »
For those who have derailed this article again into some MRA screed: You’re a joke man. You take no responsibility… for even your healthcare. Who is supposed, God on high? Also, this has nothing to do with blue collar dangerous work… which is mostly done by disenfranchised Mexican migrants now, not the ‘Poor white menz’ your MRA whine about day and night. Rush Limbaugh is not working on an oil rig. But his life expectancy is low… because he keeps shoving burgers into his gaping hole and popping oxycontin like candy. No one else is to blame for his own… Read more »
Neil the article is bull and references a poor quality piece of political advocacy disguised as research. And men do take responsibility for healthcare, who do you think pays for the bulk of the healthcare thats consumed by women and children, the decades of focus on womens healthcare, has been paid for at the expense of mens healthcare. Women and children expect this from men, that was the point a lot of the mens rights people correctly brought up. The article fails to investigate the female construction of the male who is only “real” when he is sacrificing to provide… Read more »
Hugo is a retard.
No. Unfortunately he’s relatively clever. That’s why he fooled so many people into thinking he’s a good guy for women.
He’s just a pickup artist in disguise!
Call him Fraud Schwyzer if you want.
We need to remind men that part of being a “real man” is being mentally, emotionally, and physically present for the people who love and rely upon us. And while we’re at it can we remind everyone else too? Because while I can’t speak for every man I can say that in my experience women are worse than men when it comes to pushing the macho ethos. This seems to be a trend around here. If something bad is happening to women then its men that need to change and when something bad is happening to men its men that… Read more »
And again, its women saying what a real man is and isn’t. A “real man” is whatever is best for a woman at any given time.
Men need to collectively diverge from masculinity defined by women, IMO.
Yes. Better abandon any attempt to be a “real man”:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Dont-try-to-be-a-real-man
Nice anit, thank you. I pulled out a few good quotes… “Being told to be a real man or to man up has nothing whatsoever to do with being a man. It’s purely about control and subservience…” “Be a real man and never let anyone tell you to be a real man ;). Seriously though, when people do that, it’s only about manipulating, shaming or otherwise bullying you into the worst form of subservience: the one where you get told what to do but still remain responsible for the outcome – particularly when the outcome isn’t good. It is also… Read more »
Get flu shots? I can recall when there were shortages in our area–possibly local, possibly not–and the public word was that only the most vulnerable should get them. If a man were to avoid a flu shot–not necessarily because the last time he got a flu shot he got flu–but because he thinks his generally good health will protect him from serious consequences and he can afford to let the more vulnerable have it, is that “macho” And how many cases like that would it take to show that men, macho or otherwise, are less likely to get a flu… Read more »
Probably a poor idea, given that cytokine storms are far more likely to kill healthy and able-bodied young men, which is a real danger from the flu. I’d be insisting that young and healthy people (particularly men) should be the target of flu vaccination programs.
But science is so un-fun, compared to whining about how men are so mistreated.
Cytokine storms really don’t care.
Ha! Quiet Riot Girl is present.
Keep an eye on her men – she wants an end to sex -:)
http://quietgirlriot.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/letters-from-an-alien-the-end-of-sex/#comments
.. because threatening the witholding of sex as a means to get what you want is reasonable behaviour, to you.
seriously tgmp, can we lose this woman worshiping writer and his group of misandric moral superiours that follow him here?
Yes PLEASE get rid of that fraudster. That fake women’s empowerment proponent, that misandrist, sexist preacher who doesn’t care how many men he has to hurt just in order to win female approval.
I’m thinking you’re misunderstanding both QRG and moi….but please, go on
No, I believe I understood you perfectly..
You don’t want men to listen to QRG and you used the threat of no sex in an attempt to convince them.
Hmmm…no – I like QRG and her opinions very much, and the link was to one of her posts, which you obviously have either not read, or possibly, not understood.
The question of mortality (first world) is less difficult then is being positioned in the article and within the comments. The current gap is roughly 5 years, and it has been the lowest gap we’ve experienced in the last 60 years. It has been shrinking since the early seventies and there is plenty of solid evidence that the shrinkage is due to smoking rates between the sexes: men’s rates have been declining at a larger rate relative to women. Smoking was also one of the key factors why the size of the gap was as it was prior to the… Read more »
I think we should be very careful from using biological differences as an explanation. Those are, at best, assumptions and nothing more. And they prepare the ground for making discriminatory policies and judgements. For example, boys commit suicide far more often than women but because it’s more a male typical act, it therefore requires not so much attention. Biological differences are always the ground to justify genocide and other atrocities against a group of people so it’s best to just do without. Besides, even if the findings about the ill effects of testosterone are true, other studies will reveal benefits… Read more »
Nice study here, the charts show that men and women had a very similar life span until the 1950s.
“In conclusion, if there is a biological difference, the difference is very small (about 2 years). To answer the question why men die earlier, we have to look at many different factors and I will eventually do so in another post. Nevertheless male health does not have the same focus female health has and without a doubt the difference in mortality rates is another reason we should have a closer look at men’s health”
htt p://feck-blog.blogspot.com/2009/11/cloisterstudy-or-is-there-biological.html
“our value doesn’t lie only in our capacity to defend or to provide” You’re describing what SHOULD be – not what IS. The reality is very different. Of course, some men might luckily find a woman who values them for something else. But that doesn’t mean any man can afford to stop focusing on his capacity to provide/defend. That would be a logical fallacy which is often made in these sort of articles. As long as men compete for women’s favor, it is the WOMEN who decide what men are valued for. But as usual, Schwyzer will never hold female… Read more »
You say that “it is the WOMEN who decide what men are valued for” and then you say “This site is NOT the place for someone who just wants to get female admiration at the cost of men,” presumably referring to Hugo. Hugo has indeed been exploitative of women before, but he’s acknowledged this, and I see only scant evidence of it in his current behavior. You, on the other hand, appear to be display an intense anxiety disorder, where you are so afraid of rejection by women that you try to write them out of the picture entirely. You… Read more »
Wow. So much ad hominem and so little sense. Why so much hostility? I haven’t upset you have I? Such aggressive infantile anger doesn’t help much in any discussion really. All it does is provoke more hostility. I’m not even going to answer your silly attempts to discredit me because anyone can see that they’re just a pathetic way to try and make me look biased rather than address my points. The only actual point that you made was this: “Isn’t it sons who also decide what is valuable in men, i.e. in their fathers?” Fallacy. You’re mistaking one individuals… Read more »
Did anyone actually look into the study Hugo is describing? Given his reference to “Rutgers Researchers” I’m assuming it’s: “Macho Men” and Preventive Health Care: Implications for Older Men in Different Social Classes by Kristen Springer and Dawne Mouzon. This study has significant flaws. (sorry if you can’t find a copy, I’m at a university and have access to it, but I don’t think a free copy is available yet) According to the regression analysis, the Chi-Squared test failed (value <19 with 13 degrees of freedom) for 2 of the items being tested for (prostate exam and physical exam), and… Read more »
This is not the only study to show this. David Schnarch’s book “Passionate Marriage” as well as some work by addiction counselors discuss how health issues, including even things like erectile dysfunction, correlate to “macho” attitudes, i.e. emotional unavailability, fear of weakness, high risk-taking, lack of respect for women that Hugo describes. Terry Real talks about this as well in “I Don’t Want To Talk About It.”
This often happens Mike. People with an ‘agenda’ quote ‘research’ just to suit their agenda without really analysing the data. See also: practically all feminist writers especially online!
Thank you Mike. Appreciate your review of the data. Indeed, that is the article, and when you follow Hugo’s link to it, it is hidden behind a $32 pay wall, Again thank you for clearing away the smoke and removing the mirrors. Do you think if we all chipped in we could buy Hugo a remedial statistics class (I am assuming he read the article and not just the abstract)?
Disappointed. Now you’re insulting my wife. You must have a serious issue with…practically everybody. I finished up a spell in the bump shop–physical therapy–a couple of weeks ago. Thats why we have them. Get yourself messed up, get fixed up. Crap about macho men and doctors…. Anyway, I suggest you get yourself some instruction on how to deal with human beings. Might be a foreign concept, but it will be useful, eventually. In the meantime, if you have any interest in sex gender equality, recuse yourself from the discussion. Do the rest of the folks the favor of not having… Read more »
Not insulting your wife – just suggesting that you may be missing something – as may she. Some women really do dislike their husbands but are dependent on the money, want the children to have some kind of a father around (even if he does have trouble dealing with human beings), don’t have the kind of adult psychology they need for shared parenting/shared earning with men. I’ve seen it many times – the merry widow is usually the result – provided there is insurance or some other financial provision for her and she has trained her children to take care… Read more »
Disappointed. Reading comprehension. Learn it. Live it. Love it. I said it was a bad thing to remember failing an obligation or failing to do all that was necessary to help a friend of loved one. Particularly bad if you were remembering it as you ended your life in a nursing home, thinking you got your last three years because you failed to do all you could, even stuff Hugo would sneer at as “macho”. IOW, doing the right thing irrespective of the cost–to mortality or anything else–is the better way to go and if it costs you your life,… Read more »
It’s the other way around . The inability to learn sex/gender equality means you live the final years in poor health – and have those final years happen earlier. Hugo’s original text citing the study: “A study last month revealed a truth many of us have long suspected: men with “macho” attitudes are more reluctant to seek health care—and as a result experience shorter life expectancy AND GREATER MEDICAL PROBLEMS—” (Emphasis mine.) Reading comprehension. Learn it. Live it. Love it. I’d be surprised if your wife or children really like macho – I hate it and know many women who… Read more »
One of the problems with “macho” is that it’s difficult for a “macho” man to get candor from his family. “Macho” men often fantasize that they know what their families want from them, when it’s really just what the man wants. This is because he doesn’t really want to hear from his wife and children and they don’t want to cross him by saying something he doesn’t want to hear. They don’t want to cross him because, on average, men are bigger physically and have more upper body strength, and many women “need” the relationship more than men do, especially… Read more »
Maybe your wife really doesn’t want you around, though – and just wants the proceeds on the life insurance policy – or whatever financial rewards she gets from your not “sparing yourself.” Sorry if that’s true.
One of the things men get from sex/gender equality is real love, friendship, ethics and non-exploitation from women. Sounds like you missed that boat – again, please don’t get in the way of younger men getting it.
What nonsense. You make a contract and then you don’t complain when the bill comes. What’s the big deal? I am reminded of a piece from Kipling’s “Epitaphs of The War” [WW I] The Refined Man I turned aside for my needs. I was seen from afar and killed. Why is this a reason for mirth? I paid the price to live with myself On terms that I willed. The macho guys slip away three or five years earlier, whatever. It’s the last three or five years. The ones where they may well be catherized out of the ability to… Read more »
I trust you’ll not be having children – or making any promises to women about anything you are going to provide – either monetary or otherwise – to them?
Some people do like to live their lives alone – that’s fine. Just please be clear with others about your wishes so they do not get the wrong idea.
I’m not sure who is going to bury you, though – that is a problem. Oh wait – you’re going to be a burden on the state?
Disappointed.
If you’re referring to me, I have two kids, three grandkids and lots of life insurance. One thing I promised my wife is that I would not spare myself if something requiring me arose. She seems to think that’s okay. Alternative is I stand aside, guarding my precious mortality, while something bad happens to those I love.
But you seem to have a good deal of attitude about something.
I said that because you say you are living your life on a plan where you do “not attempt something that, in retrospect, you should have, something that might have helped a loved one or friend, something that would have fulfilled an obligation,” You don’t help loved ones or friends? Doesn’t sound much like “love” or “friendship” to me. You see “obligations” as optional. isn’t that a contradiction in terms? I suspected a lot of you guys who object to the GMP’s articles – especially those on sex/gender equality – are older men – as Hugo astutely observes as well.… Read more »
Anyway, Women need to step up and start doing the glass cellar jobs and also being more prepared to support men. The figure from male bread winner families show that women arent exactly getting in to the spirit of things. “When it comes to controlling money, there are some disturbing statistics about who controls the money in a marriage. “A recent PEW study of 30-to-44-year-olds showed that when a husband is the primary or sole breadwinner, household spending decisions are divided roughly equally. He makes about a third of them, she makes a third, and they make a third jointly.… Read more »
“‘I have had it with you “misandry” wimps’ “Translation – I hate you on the basis of your genetics and if you complain, you are not a real man.” No, I hate men who expect women to “support” them and who acknowlede nothing about doing child care and parenting (meeting abuse/neglect standards when they do it). I hate men who don’t know sex ed and take responsibility for their role in creating children. I hate men who have no relationship skills besides fighting with women – and, presumably, their children. It’s the wussiest form of fake “masculinity” I’ve ever seen.… Read more »
Im sorry, but you are just a typical feminist, verbal violence, no concept of female responsibility, collective male guilt and prejudice is all you want to contribute here. Its you thats not thinking, and from the age you sound, and the fact that your entire pov is made up of the official feminist construct, that I have at stage in my life, reproduced more than you have. There is no point in making accusations of domestic and child abuse, when you are the one who is being abusive on the internet, there is no point in accusing all men of… Read more »
I am not accusing all men of this. I was speaking directly to you and what you have said about yourself in these posts. Nor am I in any pain; I’m actually kind-of enjoying this. I do see your self-pity, though. I would pity you – or have some compassion for you – but you are apparently an adult and it is your responsibility to get help you need. I am arguing with you more for my own practice dealing with guys like you in abuse/neglect and paternity cases. Like them, your fallacies in logic and your self-pity and your… Read more »
You’re a joke man. You take no responsibility… for even your healthcare.
Who is supposed, God on high?
Also, this has nothing to do with blue collar dangerous work… which is mostly done by disenfranchised Mexican migrants now, not the ‘Poor white menz’ your MRA whine about day and night.
Rush Limbaugh is not working on an oil rig. But his life expectancy is low… because he keeps shoving burgers into his gaping hole and popping oxycontin like candy. No one else is to blame for his own demise except himself.
Ugh, what an exercise in responsibility dodging and misandry. “with the welfare programs you make necessary with the women you promise to provide for and then abandon”. Women instigate 70 – 80% of divorces and are 100% responsible for chosing to bring children with unknown and unwilling fathers into the world. “with the health care system you bloat with your mismanagement of your own health and demands that you be “cured,”” Women use most health care and make 80% of all health care decisions, in one European country, women take 500% more out of the welfare state than they out… Read more »
“Women . . . are 100% responsible for chosing to bring children with unknown and unwilling fathers into the world.” Last time I checked it took sperm to make those babies. Those men are making a choice as well – it may precede the woman’s choice whether to abort or not, but it is there. Seriously, take a sex ed course. And paternity can now be proven – and disproven- genetically. I have had it with you “misandry” wimps. You don’t appear to take any sort of adult responsibility for anything, including sex; you don’t hold other men, whether “babydaddys”… Read more »
“Last time I checked it took sperm to make those babies. Those men are making a choice as well – it may precede the woman’s choice whether to abort or not, but it is there. Seriously, take a sex ed course. And paternity can now be proven – and disproven- genetically.” Men are 50% responsible for the decision to have sex, women are 100% responsible for the decision to have a child without a father, or have one with and unwilling father, women should stop making unilateral decisions to have children without fathers, and then blaming men for their own… Read more »
How is it that women are 100% responsible for the decision to have a child with a unwilling father? That is illogical. Ever hear of a man not having sex in the first place? Or getting a vasectomy if he does want to have a sex and doesn’t want to be a father? As I mentioned, you don’t even know basic sex ed, this debate is not even worth having. I never said women didn’t commit child abuse/neglect. I said that men were perpetrators of it, which the authority you cite establishes. What the authority does not mention is that… Read more »
Who do we run to when something goes wrong or needs fixing, who is doing all these dangerous and difficult jobs? Liberal males and their superiour female class? No. A tough, under and working class that is predominantly male keeps it all going and they die younger. Risk talking is biological (dopamine d4 gene), risk taking is what drives evolution the gene associated with risk talking is more commonly found in men, there are rewards built in for risk talking and that is what drives are evolution and what has brought us to the point that your moral betters can… Read more »
“Perhaps women and liberal males should start working in sewers, on roads and on oil fields,” I’m guessing you yourself are not a man who works “in sewers, on roads and on oil fields” but you just use them for your purposes. What makes you think (a) women don’t do dangerous or risky work (such as pregnancy itself), (b) dirty work (isn’t nearly every maid a woman? and many nurses?), or (c) scummy work (I’ll leave this to your imagination)? Also, what makes you think men working in sewers, on roads and on oil fields are “conservative,” i.e. Republicans in… Read more »
“What makes you think (a) women don’t do dangerous or risky work (such as pregnancy itself), (b) dirty work (isn’t nearly every maid a woman? and many nurses?), or (c) scummy work (I’ll leave this to your imagination)?” The facts that women live longer and make up 4% of work place deaths, being a maid, is luxury by comparison to working on an oil rig for 6 mts at a time, or working on the roads in all weather. The fact that you cant appreciate that, demonstrates your unchecked privilege and objectification of men as sacrifice and work objects –… Read more »
“with your child abuse & neglect that creates so many problems in our educational system”.
Women are societies main child abusers.
In your world “women are the main child abusers” because you refuse to admit male culpability. You are a baby yourself.
Your world is not the world the rest of us live in.
No, statistically women are more likely to abuse children. So according to your logic, its you thats culpable for child abuse. Mothers carried out almost 68 per cent of cases of emotional and psychological abuse committed by parents, about 53 per cent of physical abuse and more than 94 per cent of neglect cases. Cases of substantiated abuse jumped from 960 in 2005-06 to 1505 in 2007-08. In 2005-06, mothers committed 312 cases, while fathers were responsible for 165. In 2005-06, mothers were responsible for 161 neglect, 72 emotional and psychological, 76 physical and three sexual abuse cases against their… Read more »
If you’re so concerned about abuse/neglect, why don’t you get in there and take care of children?
Also, even if women abuse/neglect children more – and I suspect the greater degree of neglect has to do with the fact that paternity has not be able to be proven and so neglect is difficult to establish with men – that does not mean men do not abuse/neglect children. If something is less frequent, it doesn’t exist. What kind of logic is that? Narcissistic logic.
“Narcissistic logic” meaning “I want it to be true so it is true even if the facts – and any logical conclusion – state otherwise.”
“The facts that women live longer and make up 4% of work place deaths, being a maid, is luxury by comparison to working on an oil rig for 6 mts at a time, or working on the roads in all weather.”
If being maid is such a luxury, why don’t you become one?
Oh wait, because you don’t even “work on an oil rig for 6 mts at a time, or work on the roads in all weather.” You’re just using the men and women who do.
Seriously, stop whining and deal.
Also, you say “The facts that women live longer” – completely ignoring that this article is about a solution to this problem! What a jackass.
First off, kudos for Hugo for reminding people that life expectancy is a product of all sorts of behaviors and values and is not strictly biologically determined. I suspect he is right about many men choosing to take more physical risks than average, and I think the stats are pretty clear that women are more likely to seek medical help than men are on average. I agree with most of what he wrote here. But, a few points of contention or expansion: One, there’s the quality of life issue that must be weighed with the security of life issue. Taking… Read more »
I agree with Frank. I also think that defining ‘machismo’ is going to be different for different people/cultures. And I thought ‘macho’ cultures such as Italy and Spain had longer life-expectancy than other places. Also things like ‘war’ could be considered macho, and do lead to loss of life of men, but often the most macho men in the army-the generals and commander in chiefs, have a long life, compared to the ‘cannon fodder’ of the soldiers on the front line. I understand that being scared to go to the doctor/admit weakness is an issue for men. But I’d say… Read more »
Why don’t you check your facts, such as about Italy and Spain, and then get back to us, rather than engaging in conjecture?
It is true that high status men in cultures of violence and exploitation reap the rewards, longer lives, multiple families. Why other men, or any women, support this, has to be due to some kind of Stockholm Syndrome and not adult thinking or feeling.
Under the UN’s test for the health and wealth of nations, Italy is at the bottom of Europe. http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/human_development
Italy’s woman-demeaning Prime Minister Berlusconi is probably symptomatic of this.
Spain isn’t on this chart, but can probably be found if you drill through the data.
Hi Disappointed that chart includes education and GDP not just life expectancy.
This chart of life expectancy shows Italy and Canada ahead of UK and America overall for example…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Expectancy_Index#Life_Expectancy_Index