How masculinity is changing in the Western world in the 21st century.
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I would say this was awesome, except seriously how do you write about this issue and not use the word bisexual or biphobia even once. The article is biphobic, even though the article reveals much of what is at the root of biphobia.
I am an Orthodox and i am telling you that everything you wrote about the Orthodox way of treating men & masculinity is bullshit — we do make mistakes (who does not!?), but you need to study either Orthodoxy or history to sée what the real Teaching is, and of how much love & endurance Orthodox people have been and are, before your insult them (and me).
When you say that you are “an Orthodox”, what do you mean? If you mean that you are part of one of the various religions with Orthodox in their name (e.g. Orthodox Judaism, Eastern Orthodox Christianity), then note that this article is not talking about that at all.
Orthodox in this article is used with this meaning: “conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.” She is using the term to talk about the standard views of masculinity and contrasting it with a new, inclusive masculinity.
Thoughtful perspectives that I believe miss an important point. What is being discussed is “maleness” not masculinity. The masculine is not exclusive to men any more than the feminine is exclusive to women. Masculinity and femininity are gender constructs. They do NOT reflect a person’s biological sex per se. Real change will only occur when we realize that there are three distinct aspects when it comes to this discussion: Biological SEX (which includes both our sex at birth and later, the sex we identify with as in the case of trans folk), GENDER (which some of us see as a… Read more »
Perfect. Thank you, Scott . I’ve been repeating this same message for over 4 years now. But it’s a tough one to get across. But maybe it’s coming. You give me hope we’re evolving.
Sex is immutable, and male and female roles, which can be broadly mapped onto masculinity and femininity, are stable cross-culturally.
What you are attempting so say elsewhere (“Equating masculinity with men is misguided at best”) was much better articulated by Mansfield in his book Manliness. You can listen to Bill Kristol’s interview with him on the subject if you’re the kind of person who reads blogs but not books.
Neither you nor anyone else is a “multi-gendered human being.” You also aren’t an octopus.
As an academic who recently used Anderson’s theory in my own book Rethinking Misogyny, his theory is very valuable and a welcome update in the field of gender studies which tends to be very stuck in its insistence of its predecessor, hegemonic masculine theory which is mostly negative about men. I would add however, that the info graphic isn’t clear on the important point he makes that currently both orthodox and inclusive masculinities both exist simultaneously. This can be confusing both for men themselves but also for anyone commenting on masculine culture. It’s not the case that all men have… Read more »
Actually, the deeper questions are first, why should men change, and second is it not society, our false assumptions of men and masculinity that should change. There is new study coming about that interprets quite differently, that the closer a man is to authentic masculinity, the more human he is. It postulates that it is not masculinity that is the problem but those men so fart detached from said masculinity that are at issue in continually attempting to “prove” their masculinity. In short, Gender studies may need to nudge over from a point of “commenting on masculinity”, to listening to… Read more »
No matter what kind of masculinity we have, we need to have boys and men being able to have and expressed their wide range of emotions plus have better political, social, and economic rights.to enjoy life. It is criminal that the upper crust of society gets its needs (even the basic ones) met but will not allow the rest of us to have them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
I agreed about the costs of orthodox masculinity which is why men are so burned out, have repressive emotions, high suicide, etc., It is going to be sometimes before men are allowed to go their own way since you have other men (like CEOs) who don’t want this to happen since they want to control men and dictate to them what life they should have or don’t want to have.
Thanks G, as you say it’s not straightforward as different people have different interests and agendas, which sometimes cut across each other . . .
I think this on the right track. Inclusivity. It’s not about feminization but being who you are as the man you are and being accepted for that.
Yes, Kai. Makes much more sense. I was scratching my head for a second there as the graphic did tend to resemble the same old “masculinity bad” arguments that we are constantly inundated with, in a sort of an “every-man must do this or that”, “every-man must now kiss other men, act more feminine in order to fit into the new man box”, etc. if he is speaking of “relaxed masculinity” where men are free to be whom they are, and as I do never give it a thought except when reading here, without social constructs pressuring us to fit… Read more »
Also, Kai, part of my problem is that I’m so far beyond all this that it seems sort of silly at times. I did all this thinking well back in the 80s, not so much in regard to who I am, but how society conditioned me in regard to relationships. I chose a woman by the numbers, payed my role by the numbers, even gave up having kids of my own so as to raise hers, and in the end, when the kids were gone and I was no longer needed, she was gone too….and I got bent over in… Read more »
I completely agree DJ. the problem to me is finding the strength to be who you are in the face of such strong judgment from both sides.
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you. -Egan, Rafety.
Thanks for giving it another go DJ. I read this book as promoting multiplicity and choice, not as saying that all men “have to” be a certain way. I agree with you that “jumping from one box to another” isn’t right of course, and also that new theories about human nature can be counterproductive (or just plain wrong). But on the other hand it’ can be helpful to have different models to refer to, critique them as appropriate, and take / modify / reject them, or aspects of them. So that just as you did in your own life, it… Read more »
Hi Kai, I’ve come to enjoy our conversations very much. My angst with all the rhetoric out there is exactly as you describe. Men are in flux, and I see both positive and negative in that. Positive is that society is coming to a place of understanding that the measure of a man is not in his conditioning and use, but in who he is as a human. The negative is with men themselves and the confusion that is resulting because of so much besmirching of classic masculinity, being painted as something it simply never was. As Warren Farrell once… Read more »
Couple of thoughts
1: I’m going to assume “Professor” Anderson was the “last picked” kid in gym class and is incredibly bitter about it. (seriously, what is up with the random potshots at team sports? The reason we have “all male” teams is because people tend not to like it when boys play on the girls’ team. Even when the boy in question is younger and smaller than his female team mates: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/keeling-pilaro-male-field-hockey-player-banned-being-160713816.html )
2. As usual “inclusive” is left to mean “anything feminine is good, anything masculine is bad”
Ummmm… guys in girls sports, you were saying?
Sorry 8ball, I forgot to add the links
High School Boy Wins All-State Honors In Girls Track And Field
http://www.youngcons.com/high-school-boy-becomes-all-state-in-girls-track-and-field/
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/03/high-school-boy-wins-all-state-honors-in-girls-track-and-field/#ixzz4Ankht8pW
8ball, I haven’t read the OP word for word; but your post caught my attention. For your information, Eric Anderson is, indeed, a professor who has earned several degrees. He’s also a former high-school track coach. So, your attempt to repudiate and discredit him falls flat on its face. You should have done some research first before making your blanket statement. Perhaps I’m wrong to say this; but your “last picked” comment sounds like it was intended to be snide insult on your part – that the point of view of a nonathletic boy in a mandatory P.E. class is… Read more »
I remember an old saying: A sure sign of mass confusion is a growing number of experts. Currently, Kai, those “experts” emerging have a distinctively gender based feminist slant, seeing from their own perspective. This particular individual’s personal theory tends to paint masculinity as a negative, cherry picking what is mostly assumed values of masculinity and twisting them onto men rather than the society that used and abused them in everything from war to the deadly job of building this nation. He is also hefting societies slant onto men while leaving women harmless, when we know that it is women… Read more »
Hi DJ – great to hear from you as always. It sounds like in summarising and abbreviating the ideas of this book for a graphic, I might have lost something of the writer’s own attitude and intentions? In my view, this book is caring and sympathetic towards men, and analyses the issues carefully – which is why I read it so thoroughly, and felt the ideas worth sharing with you and others on this site. You say: “What this particular individual is blaming on men was actually a social construct utilized as a control mechanism so as to isolate men,… Read more »
The men’s rights movement doesn’t represent the legitimate interests of all men any more than does the feminist movement represent all women. Women as a group are already too diverse to have a uniform agreement. The same is true — perhaps even more true — about men. Instead of respecting the different paths to different masculinities (in other words, respecting the personal preferences of others), we’re still saying there’s only one type of “real man”! Enough already! I’m tired and dispirited. Because of serious, difficult medical problems, this may be my last post anywhere on the Internet. It’s so vain… Read more »
Another one that I’m gonna have to wrap my mind around.