Where are all of the straight, white, cis-gendered men who should be standing up for social change?
This piece was co-authored by Raoul Wieland and his colleagues:
Peter Wanyenya works as International Student Advisor, Special Populations & Programs at the University of British Columbia (UBC) and is a PhD candidate at the Institute for Gender, Race, Sexuality and Social Justice at UBC
Andrew Pauls is completing a degree in Speech Sciences at the University of British Columbia (UBC) and has an associate degree in child and youth counseling from Douglas College, Vancouver
“A very stimulating, thought provoking conference; but where are all the men?“ The question was unsettling, the room heavy and blanketed with silence as each appeared to deliberate the significance of what had been asked. It wasn’t the novelty of the question or that it had been phrased in uncertain terms; it wasn’t that organizers hadn’t seen this all before, in other conferences, classrooms, workshops or rallies. The disquieting absence of men was not new, and yet here we all sat, entombed with silence: Awareness of men’s absence, particularly cis-gender/heterosexual men, is particularly acute when discussing how to confront, dismantle and shed light upon ongoing societal violence and injustice; discussing systems of heteropatriarchy and exploring systems of oppression (i.e. sexism, heterosexism, classism, ableism, racism).
What’s all the fuss about anyways?
It appeared evident that the elephant was and had always been in the room; we were left fumbling in the dark trying to understand the construction of male apathy and indifference. Were men absent from these forums, caring for what they deemed more pressingly important or productive uses of their time? Perhaps we simply don’t care or fail to connect these issues to our own? Could it be that men are conditioned not to develop or act upon empathy?
This essay attempts to probe and question the origins that lead to an absence of men’s participation in discussions of systemic societal violence and injustice. In doing so we assume that systems of oppression exist and have detrimental and pervasive consequences. As authors of this essay and as cis-gender/heterosexual men leading privileged lives, we intend to contribute to ongoing discussions about why social justice initiatives – particularly in response to sexism and heteropatriarchy – are rendered women’s work or the work of marginalized groups, simply by the failure of men to show up.
Leadership – Men embody leadership across the social spectrum. From security to sports, religion to politics, from business to economics, ethics and science, ecology and environmentalism men are seen assuming substantive and consequential leadership roles; this list is by no means exhaustive. Why then, with few notable exceptions, are men largely absent from substantive positions of leadership within social justice and advocacy work? Leadership here refers to a conscious effort by men to show up, be engaged, listen, learn, self-reflect, ally, support and – yes – step back and willfully allow others to lead; participation in substantive, consequential social justice advocacy also demands that men talk to other men about their role of sustaining existing systems of oppression or, more importantly, their potential role in deconstructing them. Once aware of these structures and our role in maintaining them, we propose that gender-privileged men have the social duty and personal responsibility to question and address existing systems of oppression within their own social circles; these are privileged spaces readily accessible only to them. Why is there an absence of men, in substantive advocacy roles, actively and passionately fighting for social justice?
The Absence of Men
Concealed privilege – Why do men fail to see and recognize how many unearned privileges we have that we consequently take for granted? Are we the metaphorical fish that reply, “what water”? Why do we remain oblivious to how our in/actions maintain and feed systems of oppression? Why do we fail to see how these in/actions connect and influence our own lives?
In our experience, men don’t purposefully subvert change through our own in/actions; we don’t consciously deny others their measure of dignity or social justice, at least not in most cases. We propose that our absence from actively participating and working for social reform is a measure of our ignorance of existing power structures – how power is organized and operates within our society. We suggest that men’s unawareness of these structures is proportional to our ignorance of the struggles against subjugation, marginalization and violence that many groups must face on a daily basis.
How are power structures that render unearned male privilege invisible, maintained? How does this status quo and the ignorance that lays beneath, supersede meaningful change? We propose that part of an explanation for this rests in how unearned privilege is made invisible to those that have it and that historical hierarchies are hidden but remain active, also rendered invisible. Present day illusions held by some that we live in a society where racism is dead and feminism is no longer needed, as well as the appearance of consequential reverse-ism (think reverse sexism), exemplifies our ignorance towards undercurrents that obfuscate real comparison between those that are denied access, voice, privilege and justice in the dominant culture and privileged men that maintain these structures (un)knowingly. Not surprisingly, those who are systemically marginalized and denied access, voice and opportunity, know only too well how power operates and what is required for meaningful change.
The importance of discerning how ignorance of power structures is and has been maintained and why this ignorance has a habit of sticking around is clear. It equates to first steps of men acknowledging systems of oppression and the detrimental and pervasive consequences for others; men assuming responsibility for their role in maintaining this system; men willingly and purposefully ‘showing up’ and; actively and passionately participating in dismantling this system. Alternatively, privileged men, absent a conscious understanding of our many unearned privileges and the power structures that maintain or conceal them, fail to make personal connections to our role in present injustices and hence fail to show up.
Hetero-Normative culture
Interwoven in this society of ours are practices, teachings and values that continue to shackle gender roles to narrow interpretations of what it means to be a man, a women, a boy or a girl. Sexuality is similarly forced into a binary of gay vs. straight, delegitimizing the array of orientations along what in reality is a spectrum of variation. Societal expectations about gender and sexuality normalize the heterosexual relationship. Stereotypes of man and women-hood subsequently become entrenched.
Welcome to Guyland, writes sociologist Michael Kimmel, where only a few select identities and relationship types are socially accepted as ‘normal’. Where boys, navigating the passage from adolescence to adulthood, struggle to constantly ‘prove their masculinity’ in front of the critical gaze of their peers. A recent study determines that boys demonstrate manliness in ways that lead to “everyday low-level violence” while the pressure to constantly manage one’s everyday life in line with gender norms produces significant anxiety, insecurity, stress and low self-esteem. Importantly, Kimmel and others have pointed out that men ‘proving their masculinity’ are “socialized to feel entitled to women bodies; women’s accomplishments, women’s space” and so on. Kimmel uses the slogan ‘Bros Before Hos’ to exemplify how men constantly ‘proving their masculinity’ translates to objectification and denigration of girls whose identity and agency is constrained by the terms and conditions set in Guyland.
Our society signals that cis-gender/heterosexual men and the particular life choices society attaches to these labels are the norm or the ‘normal’. The dominant image of masculinity may thus be described as: “a young, married, white, urban, northern, heterosexual, Protestant, father, of college education, fully employed, of good complexion, weight and height, and a recent record in sports”. If anything but these characteristics is considered unworthy, incomplete or inferior, then we fail to recognize how ‘normal’ marginalizes the many other expressions of what it means to be a man or a women. We propose that failing to identify how this mechanism – this myth, this socially constructed notion of masculinity, so strongly influenced by hetero-normativity – obscures unearned male privilege, maintains men’s ignorance.
Logically, from this perspective, is it any surprise that men are confused or perhaps even turned off by the voices telling us that what we believe we are entitled to ‘just ain’t so’? If our identity – hard fought for while navigating Guyland – our status there, our entitlements, so much a part of what we determine as essential proof of our masculinity, is questioned and put under scrutiny, is it not logical that as privileged men, we will feel threatened? Do we not then react by ignoring, undermining or attempting to prevent or stop such discussions from penetrating below our thin layer of skepticism, self moderated cynicism or notions of entitlement?
If we grow up in a climate where low level violence is a continuous ritual considered part of our capacity and strength as men ‘proving their masculinity’, then is it any wonder that men appear desensitized to other’s feelings? More specifically, for example, from this perspective, is it any wonder that men fail to see how continuously ‘proving their masculinity’ including reinforcing socialized feelings of entitlement to women’s bodies, is connected to their ignorance or insensitivity towards women? Subsequently, from this perspective, it is not at all surprising that most men react with skepticism -or worse– to voices telling us that our actions and the way we approach relationships can in fact be hurtful and harmful. Does this skepticism, self moderated cynicism or notion of entitlement in fact act as a defensive measure that leads men to bow out and abstain from attending?
We propose that men fail to see how their socialized feelings of entitlement to women’s bodies impact their own behavior and the behaviors of all those around them; they fail to see the full effect of their behavior on women, themselves and how actions of constantly ‘proving their masculinity’ correlate with their own unawareness of unearned male privilege, the role they play in maintaining it and the failure of many men from assuming responsibility to address it.
Emotional Illiteracy
Many boys have been taught ‘what it means to be a man’ from a young age and since then internalized the belief that part of ‘being a man’ is to cope with difficult emotions by ignoring them, keeping them contained or feigning indifference. We all know the phrase ‘man up!‘; men struggling with emotions are expected to, as did the fictional Baron Münchhausen, pull themselves out of the suffocating emotional swamp by their own bootstraps. Self-reliance in all things! Sink or swim! Prove your manhood! Are you tougher, faster, stronger, richer? Do you get more sex than the guy next to you? Will you back down from a confrontation? Countless stories reveal emotional stagnation and the socially instilled drive to compete and how ‘proving your masculinity’ can lead to toxic relationships that men have both with themselves and with others. Unable to swim through the emotional currents, countless numbers of men sink, pulling others down with them. Consequently, it is a tragedy with many wide-ranging consequences that men choosing to be disloyal to ideals of heteropatriarchy and manhood find little if any support.
We propose that the key to participating in difficult conversations is showing up, engaging with an open mind and coping with one’s emotions. Emotions that are bound to be rattled as we are all challenged to go beyond our biases, the status quo and simple one size fits all explanations for the world we inhabit. In a social justice and advocacy realm we are forced to look at ourselves as responsible, directly or indirectly for much injustice. We are challenged to change thought patterns, imagine a different reality and act upon that which we have learned. In these spaces where the political is the personal and the personal the political, this can be extremely challenging. Perhaps an estrangement from feelings leads to an inability to connect with others and assume responsibility for causing pain? Privileged men, absent a conscious understanding of our many unearned privileges and the power structures that maintain or conceal them, fail to make personal connections to our role in present injustices, and act as such. Many cis-gender/heterosexual men navigate such spaces by carrying a briefcase of invisible privilege, a social identity that is normalized and stands unchallenged alongside the inability to creatively deal with difficult emotions. Is it any wonder that such emotional encounters often lead to defensiveness, anger, or frustration? Some men are silenced, others shut down, and only a few stick with discomfort to ally and become allies. Absent any guidance and support from others, particularly other men, is it any wonder why we fail to show up in large numbers, or even for that matter as courageous disparate individuals?
A call to action
Current discussions about a crisis of manhood, whether you believe manhood is in crisis or not, offer great opportunities to think about what it means to be a man in the 21st century, what the future of manhood will look like, who is to be included or excluded from such definitions, and what roles men can take on to create a more just and equitable society. We recognize that it is too much to ask that all men will re-shape their lives to actively dismantle outdated notions or myths of masculinity’; not all men will actively help to deconstruct the notion of male supremacy or become a politically active allies. Showing up once in a while to an event, listening with an open mind and clearing spaces within to self-reflect on one’s roles and responsibilities, might however, seem more attainable for most
If this essay were in fact a call to action, then it would probably close with a challenge to men. Men, in particular those of us that do show up and engage, perhaps it is time to step up our leadership roles and carry forward what can be characterized as courageous conversations into spaces of privilege; become the mentor that young men desperately need, and have the courage to speak up once in a while. Barring fundamental change or a revolution of how (cis-gender/heterosexual) men are educated, socialized and behave in relation to our privilege, we will continue to remain blind to others; we will continue to view social justice and advocacy initiatives and events, and the concerns or issues they raise, with apathy and indifference. It’s never too late to participate, as real change requires a concerted effort from us all.
@ Andrew Pauls I did say that I was planning to revisit this belief that you have a hidden agenda. You make 2 statements that indictae this. The first, is “I think it is relevant whether you have ever worked in the public sector” and the second is “I have met with a supreme court justice and they are very very measured people.” I suspect you work for a government agency or an NGO that provides services for abused women. That’s a noble thing and a much needed service if true. I’d have no issue with that, but I’d like… Read more »
@ Somewhereovertherainbow Here are some suggestions I believe would have improved the article and made it better received. 1. Be honest with your goal. If you want to discuss why men are not leading in correcting injustices against women. State that at the beginning. Don’t use the bait and switch; tell people you’re talking about social justice issues and then try to limit the discussion to ONLY those issues that affect women. 2. Unless you’re looking to divide people, don’t use divisive language. 3. When you post here, understand that many of these men have fully deconstructed masculinity. You can’t… Read more »
@ Somewhereovertherainbow “I believe what you are ignoring is a historical perspective. Our economic system, our political system, our prison system, our military system, the church as an institution.” I don’t ignore the historical perspective. I simply don’t ignore the biological perpsective. Unlike race, which I’ve never doubted has negatively impacted fiyitr generations. A family’s race doesn’t change from generation to generation. A child of a slave is not only disadvantaged becaise their parents were unable to profit from their lavor, but is also oppressed because of Jim Crow. Each generation started farther behimd then the last and the opprerssion… Read more »
Give me a reason to be less cynical, then. On this site I have seen countless articles about men who rape, and the occasional token article about male rape victims. I have seen articles where the mothers of sons show more concern over hypothetical women their son might later interact with than the actual flesh-and-blood son themselves. There were roughly a dozen articles about the #Bringbackourgirls campaign, Zero about the dozens of boys who were murdered in that and subsequent attacks. There are a dozen articles about the friendzone and men who “feel entitled to women” and a third as… Read more »
rug roh, Square bucket ….. may be in store for me and my comments
FYI … I have been silenced
And of course you know what happen with my response? So we’ll see….
And where is Raoul Wieland in this “conversation?” I see this more often then not where articles like this are published and the author is silent. So what happens is that we end up preaching to the choir. Guys, this really gets tiring, doesn’t it? The only redeeming factor is that in “some” cases, our words are read. I say “some” only because I have found countless responses being monitored and removed. And for those of you who didn’t read the entire article, all I can say is it was taxing on many levels. But here is the way I… Read more »
I think its hard to have a conversation without staying with our feelings. As men I think its something that we don’t do enough of. I felt that you missed the point of the article.
You want to know where the straight men are? You told them to shut up and go away years ago. So we did.
@ 8ball I disagree. CIS men never stopped leading on social change. Many of them are currently leading on social change. What many of these guys have done is recognize the social injustices perpetuated against other groups that were not included in the prevailing gender justice narrative. For example the OP completely ignores female perpetrated rapes and continues to downplay it even after I’ve provided links. Somewhereovertherainbow also claims to have followed the site and read many of my posts so should be familiar with the other studies I and many others have linked to including the CDC study which… Read more »
You should be clear on why it is being removed. Were you being to aggressive? Or attacking someone personally?
I think we should all be clear on what qualifies as an acceptable post on this forum
Cynicism and blame are easy outs my friend
In my case, I have simply become intolerant over the years to being preached at, held to double standards, and generally held in contempt. Ergo, I have decided to opt out.
“In my case, I have simply become intolerant over the years to being preached at, held to double standards, and generally held in contempt. Ergo, I have decided to opt out.” Agreed. 2-3 years ago I was a hopeful but after reading and watching what happens in social justice circles, I want no part of it. Men who try to get social justice for males will be thought of as misogynists, rape apologists, etc, will get harassed so much that their lectures and activities will be shut down, have death threats, etc. Then you get told over n over to… Read more »
Personally, I believe, its hard for men to hear criticism about being a man. I think it is indicative of deeper experiences that don’t have language attached to them. Men’s experience is not hopeless that is not the point of this article. Nor is it the point of this article to blame men. I think tcynicism arises from a lack of language we have to verbalize our experience. I believe in general men don’t talk enough about their deeper concerns with other men. From little kids we learn to grow up conforming to a particular code of being with other… Read more »
And yet it does that by bringing in that tired-out “privilege” concept, which is just assigning blame based on gender, race, orientation, gender identity etc.
I love how you exhort men to be honest about their feelings….but not if you think those feelings are “cynical”, or “defensive”.
Maybe we have good reason and experience to be so when dealing with movements of this sort. Maybe it is the movements that need to shape up.
I think you misunderstand the argument. Again, I think you bring defensiveness into the conversation because you don’t know how else to respond. About being honest about feelings? I think there is a conversation needed about how to express feelings between men. My point is men don’t have a lot of experience around this. I think there is a lack of insight when you say “I love how you exhort men to be honest about their feelings” I believe there are constructive ways to express feelings and dysfunctional ways to express feelings. To suggest that maybe we have good reason… Read more »
“And yet it does that by bringing in that tired out privilege concept” This is not a tired out concept. This is the experience of many many people.” And in *my* experience, it’s bullshit all the way down. See, you’re not *interested* in respecting people’s experiences – not if they don’t back up what you’ve already presumed to be true. I wouldn’t mind these noises about respecting other people’s experiences if it actually was even-handed, but any movement that places people like me in the default bad guy position unless I do everything they tell me to isn’t one based… Read more »
@ Andrew Pauls “Personally, I believe, its hard for men to hear criticism about being a man.” I disagree. The problem is it can’t be abstract. You’re an ass*ole doesn’t explain anything to me. I have a friend who is a police officer. He got a call for officer needs assistance. When he got there, 4 officers were trying to arrest a huge biker. He was very belligerent. When my friend confronted him he asked what am I being arrested for? My friend said see this knife. He nods. You’re not supposed to have it. The biker calmed down and… Read more »
“Or do you feel this conversation is the problem. Do you believe that men should be silient about what they feel?” Criticism is one thing, being told to shut up and listen whilst the others preach for “equality” when they don’t listen to your experience isn’t a good conversation. When we have a group which will spend 95%+ of the time teaching about how bad men are, disproportionately focusing on the failings of men yet reluctant to speak of the failings n bad of women then there is a problem. The people in social justice groups are often the reason… Read more »
“Why then, with few notable exceptions, are men largely absent from substantive positions of leadership within social justice and advocacy work?” They’re not. You simply choose to not see them because they fight against social injustices these “exceptions” fight so very hard to perpetuate. “The importance of discerning how ignorance of power structures is and has been maintained and why this ignorance has a habit of sticking around is clear.” There is ignorance of power structures. It is rendered invisible because many people who claim to be concerned with social justice can only see the figure heads. For example, most… Read more »
Agreed! (although, I think you read further than I did)
I believe what you are experiencing is cognitive dissonance
I believe you don’t actually know what cognitive dissonance means. Hint: It doesn’t mean “you disagree with me.”
Somewhereovertherainbow, I think you should spent some more time in writing a constructive reply to Anderson than just dismiss or insult. Your attitude is not new and it has contributed to the exodus. The best way is to swallow your pride and sit down (honestly) and listen. Rather than blabla and dismiss.
Mr Supertypo, you are quite right that constructive replies are valuable. Unfortunately, as you can see, Anderson did not take your advice, swallow his pride, sat down, honestly listened and then replied constructively. Instead, he, like he does on so many of these kind of articles, I recognize his name, is full of pride, unable to go beyond his biases, unwilling to listen critically, unable to look at himself critically and detect even a hint of responsibility and continues to overshout any attempt to in this article to highlight how men can engage and are engaging and are thus not… Read more »
@ Somewhereovertherainbow
The term for what you’re doing is called gaslighting. Now watch the feminist explosion as they claim that this can’t be the case because gaslighting is what men do to women.
@ Somewhereovertherainbow “While I am not claiming and would never claim that men cannot experience hurt, violence, injustice at the hands of women, and while I acknowledge that men experience much violence everyday (mostly by the hands of other men – war, prison rape, childhood abuse, domestic” So your response to a survey were 95% of the men identified female perpetrators is to claim that it’s mostly men who abuse other men. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask for clarification. You claim to have read many of my comments so I’m assuming that you’re familiar with… Read more »
@ Somewhereovertherainbow I not only disagreed with you, but I explained why I disagreed with you and provided examples. If your position is so untenable as to be unable to address any of the concerns I’ve mentioned, the rational person would change or refine their position. I’m pretty sure the cognitive problems are not mine. You said that people should speak out and I’d like to provide you the opportunity. OK, explain to me where I’m wrong. You’re suggesting that I misunderstand the structure of power. I’m saying that you misunderstand the nature of power and what the structure of… Read more »
John Anderson, interesting that you suggest that to reduce domestic violence we should teach women not to hit men so that men don’t have to hit women. If this is your way of improving the lot of women, then I would have to disagree with you, yes. Any other suggestions? Do you like Robert Bly? I am curious. As to the arguments made re prison/jail. I agree with you that the prison-industrial complex in the United States is horrible. Here is a great series for anyone interested to peruse through – http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27125-smoke-and-mirrors-inside-the-new-bipartisan-prison-reform-agenda Way too many people, significantly more men than… Read more »
@ Somewhereovertherainbow “If this is your way of improving the lot of women, then I would have to disagree with you, yes. Any other suggestions?” To reduce the 25% of domestic violence women get when they initiate the domestic violence. Yes, that would be my suggestion. As a matter of fact, I do have another suggestion. Teach everyone not to hit. Build shelters for male victims of domestic abuse. Re-evaluate the Duluth model which imprisons men for being abused. That should reduce all the rest of the domestic violence against women and men. Do you have an issue with that?… Read more »
John Anderson, I believe what you are ignoring is a historical perspective. Our economic system, our political system, our prison system, our military system, the church as an institution…have their origin in a time when men very clearly had hegemony in social, economic, political, domestic… this is less so now but hetero-patriarchy is still hegemonic. I am not saying that the status quo is static but that the momentum of continuity is much stronger than efforts of reform. You claim politicians pander to women because women vote for them and hence women benefit more than men. First, when did women… Read more »
“John Anderson, interesting that you suggest that to reduce domestic violence we should teach women not to hit men so that men don’t have to hit women.”
So what you’re saying is that women should have free reign to strike men, and men should have no right to defend themselves?
(see, I can play cutesy semantics games too.)
Wonderful mr Anderson, I couldn agree more. Beside they always tell us to shup up and listen, even when its our own experiences on the table, the most logical observation is men are not wanted, and nothing they have done has changed this impression, actually it has reinforced them. So there is no place for cis-het-males. These attitudes need to dismantled and rebuild in fair way. There need to be some radical changes in the background doctrines of these orgs.
To me your feelings of hopeless are useful and could simulate a rich discussion
My comments are in square brackets “Why then, with few notable exceptions, are men largely absent from substantive positions of leadership within social justice and advocacy work?” They’re not. You simply choose to not see them because they fight against social injustices these “exceptions” fight so very hard to perpetuate. [What are you basing your opinions on? Do you work in the public sector?] “The importance of discerning how ignorance of power structures is and has been maintained and why this ignorance has a habit of sticking around is clear.” There is ignorance of power structures. It is rendered invisible… Read more »
@ Andrew Pauls “What are you basing your opinions on? Do you work in the public sector?” Look at this article and the resulting comments. I responded to an idea. Men feel entitled to women’s bodies and this feeling of entitlement results in many social injustices such as the rape of women. When I pointed out that women rape men in nearly equal numbers the response was to erase those perpetrators and by extension their victims by pointing out that men are victims primarily of other men in violence overall. Why would someone erase a victim? Because they don’t want… Read more »
My recent comments are in round brackets “What are you basing your opinions on? Do you work in the public sector?” Look at this article and the resulting comments. I responded to an idea. Men feel entitled to women’s bodies and this feeling of entitlement results in many social injustices such as the rape of women. When I pointed out that women rape men in nearly equal numbers the response was to erase those perpetrators and by extension their victims by pointing out that men are victims primarily of other men in violence overall. Why would someone erase a victim?… Read more »
“Again I think it is about your personal feelings and your personal experience of the world”
The irony here being that thus far you have offered up nothing but *your* personal experience, which the rest of us are just supposed to take at face value because… uh…
You condescending attitude is disgusting, frankly. You basically sniffed your nose and went “well, I didn’t read anything you posted to prove your point, but I know it’s wrong because my feelings tell me so.”
I think you are the one who needs a lesson in how to have a discussion, Andre Pauls.
mmmm You know for me it is a typical response. So devalue my contribution to the conversation. I think there could be so much more. It actually could generate a more heart felt conversation. Disgusting? I mean really? condescending perhaps you felt I was being condescending but that wasn’t my intent. I mean to mean this doesn’t lead to constructive conversation. I believe men are practiced in the art of cutting each other down… Do you really want to “teach me a lesson”? I just want to have an engaging conversation… I think this realm is totally part of way… Read more »
@ Andrew Pauls
“mmmm You know for me it is a typical response.”
No argument from me. It is a typical response for you. That’s the problem 8ball and I are pointing out. Maybe you need to start listening to people. You don’t have anywhere near all the answers. You don’t even have the ability it seems to ask the relevant questions and show an inability to question your own preconceived notions.
@ Andrew Pauls “I think it is relevant whether you have ever worked in the public sector or in a position of caring for other, you didn’t answer the question” Sorry, I didn’t think THAT was the question, but something to spark introspection in order to answer the “What are you basing your opinions on?” part. I volunteer as a mentor to at risk youth. “In my own life I know that is not true.” I’m half Asian. I have a masters degree and because I spent far too long to get my bachelor’s degree I essentially got it twice… Read more »