Most of the submissions to the Marriage Section come from women. Gint Aras continues to wonder if this is a symptom of something greater.
In recent weeks, The Good Men Project has asked readers what kinds of articles they would like to see. I didn’t expect anyone to log in and offer this: “We need more first person narratives from men about how they see themselves as husbands.” Of course, that’s exactly what I’d like to see. But getting that kind of essay from men has been difficult.
I continue to wonder why men are reluctant to write about marriage, even after they have divorced or separated and feel free to “live as they have always wished”. Do we feel emasculated, exhausted by the topic? It’s no secret that wedding media and mythology target future brides. The vast majority of weddings I have attended, perhaps two dozen in all, cast the groom as a supporting actor, even a necessary sidekick or an afterthought. I went to one where I swore the event could have gone off without any groom at all—he was actually interrupted by a variety of voices during a thank you speech when he had spoken for less than a minute. Does that first day cast a bigger shadow over the whole of the marriage than we believe? In other words, do so many of us continue to feel like sidekicks at home, so much that we don’t bother to express ourselves about it? Or is there a simpler reason men have little to say on the subject? Do we just find it boring?
The anecdotal evidence says that contemporary men have an easier time identifying themselves as fathers and workers rather than husbands, at least in the stories they are willing to tell. Fathers are gaining respect. For some of us, fatherhood has become a refuge, a meaningful identity following a failed (or simply ended) marriage; our society respects us for doing well as parents. While many of us are not doing as well at work as we would like, we still feel valuable for the work we’re able to do and the service we provide to clients and communities. That’s a story that energizes us.
Should not the story we’re able to tell as husbands also energize us? Aren’t we valuable there? And if not, isn’t that the story that demands to be told? Doesn’t it affect our society profoundly?
I welcome thoughts from our readers.
Photo by spjwebster.
First of many, I hope!
https://goodmenproject.com/marriage-2/the-quality-of-our-suffering/#
Ask and you shall recieve. Follow the guidelines here if you’d like to submit your anonymous essay. You don’t need to tell us a thing about yourself:
https://goodmenproject.com/marriage-2/call-for-anonymous-submissions/
Folks, I want to thank you all for commenting here. Please don’t stop. I’m unable to reply to all of you individually, but know that this has been illuminating and enormously helpful. Look forward to some new moves.
Cheers to you all.
Maybe guys have backed themselves into corners on this. I too was bothered by the number of guys that feel that for whatever spousal reasons, can’t discuss their marriages in this kind of setting. Like I said before, in my case, I believe it would be far too boring. When I reference “backed into a corner” I mean that if husbands aren’t open to discuss these things with their wives, of course there is going to be a concern if wife saw what was being written about their marriage. “Oh yeah, you can tell a bunch of strangers but you… Read more »
I know there’s a real reluctance to speak openly for fear of being branded something unpleasant. I get it. I feel it myself sometimes. But, if there’s fear of speaking anonymously because you’re afraid of the reactions, then let’s take a good, hard, honest look at what exactly that looks like. Let’s look at the worst case scenario. Let’s say you write something honest and someone calls you sexist or misogynistic. Let’s say that happens and the language used is totally vile. Is that REALLY the end of the world? Your world is over because anonymous idiots write something offensive… Read more »
Are you sure that you are correctly interpreting people’s hesitation here? I did not see that guys were saying they fear people’s reactions where such people are not known to them and never will be. Afraid of the reactions? I would say very pessimistic about the value of the reactions. After all, why write something if you are not doing it for the reaction. I can’t speak for them, but I said specifically, that first, it is an ethical issue, and secondly, I am not persuaded that online discussion of such issues is likely to be profitable, and that I… Read more »
See? You’re helping me make my point. Let’s say some anonymous idiot (like me, the nutjob who calls himself “wellokaythen”) calls some vaguely defined population of men passive-aggressive, cowardly, playing the victim card, etc. That’s not really so bad, is it?
Just call the trollish label-maker on his garbage, or ignore it, or turn the tables on him, or any number of other possibilities. The world hasn’t ended. The idiot may feel chastised or may not. Others may agree with you or him or both or neither. Life goes on.
Also, as your example with the interrupted groom indicates, I think that most people who discover that their voice isn’t valued and/or respected, are soon socialized into not raising it at all.
And therein lies a lot of the issue with the topic.
All I can say after reading this stub and the full gamut of comments… Wow. Just wow. I am saddened by how many men have expressed that they essentially feel forced into silence on this topic. And I am prompted to take some time to examine the impact of my careless gossiping with my girlfriends, AND the details I’ve divulged online, even here in the comments at the Project. Part of me says I need an outlet other than my husband to talk about my marriage, the good and the bad, but I’m calling that “need” into question. All I… Read more »
KKZ, As a man who has felt – and sometimes still feels – “forced into silence,” I appreciate your care. I agree that it is helpful to have outlets beyond your husband to talk about your marriage. I think that is healthy. It’s also the point of this thread, because even men need an outlet or two. There is something important to note, however. While those outlets need to be safe from judgment for the speaker, it would also help if they are somewhat safe for the other partner. “Careless gossiping” can be dangerous, in that area. But it doesn’t… Read more »
Thanks for your response. I just lost my reply to the auto-refresh (GRRRR) so I will try to keep this one brief, I have work to get back to. When I refer to stopping the behavior, I’m not necessarily talking about Healthy Venting, or even about Perspective-Gathering (sharing stories with the purpose of seeking advice or interpretations outside of the bubble of the marriage), but more about the gossip-y kind of divulging that I think a lot of the commenters above are talking about when they say “my wife tells her friends everything.” Because in my experience, (Generalization alert) that… Read more »
I, too, appreciate the consideration you’re showing, but hope you don’t feel inhibited from engaging in Healthy Venting or Perspective-Gathering type behavior. I don’t begrudge such opportunities that I think women *in general* have more of — I envy them. The risk of over-sharing and violating a spouse’s sense of privacy isn’t gender-specific, so those are boundaries I think both men and women would do well to communicate about and respect. I just think men *in general* have a harder time even getting in that ballpark, and despite good intentions, GMP hasn’t re-designed the ballpark.
And also, depending on what browser you use, look for a plug-in called “Lazarus”. It’s available for several of the most popular browsers (e.g., Chrome and Firefox), and it will usually rescue you from losing writing to auto-refresh. Composing in external editors is always a good idea, but Lazarus saves you even if you got careless and thought you’d finish before the next auto-refresh.
I’m using Chrome. I just asked Lisa if the new paid membership could kill the auto-refresh as well as the ads. I don’t mind an ad experience online – I’m a marketer and perhaps more sympathetic to advertisers – but I’d be willing to pay for a refresh-free experience.
I for one appreciate your comments. It gives me a different perspective even when I disagree. I don’t feel that anyone is served when someone feels that they can’t speak freely. Please continue to use this as you outlet.
Thank you John Anderson. I certainly enjoy participating in the conversations here at GMP. I think there are times when it is useful to bring up my personal stories and experiences, including details about my marriage, because it’s relevant to the conversation at hand AND/OR lends me credibility to speak to the topic. However, there are times when I have shared details unnecessarily (hell, I can even debate with myself about how ‘necessary’ it is for me to come comment here at all, I could just as easily not do so and save a hell of a lot of time… Read more »
I have talked quite a lot about the shortcomings, mostly my own, of my different relationship on a selected few online boards. But I have always made my best to ensure my anonymity. As several commenters has said above, but what the author doesn’t seem to grasp, is the question “What good can come of it?”. I read the article about “sharing your sexual fantasies” with the greatest interest. However, my experience from longtime relationships is that whenever I open up about my secrets, vulnerabilities and insecurities, it will do nothing good but sooner or later it will come back… Read more »
In response to KKZ: I appreciate your conscientiousness about secrets and sharing them. Everyone could use that level of awareness about gossip and how people use it. I think the flipside of sharing secrets to create bonding with others is that it can also create barriers that keep other people at a distance. Creating an in-group automatically creates an out-group. I have a colleague who spends most of her workplace conversations engaged in the latest gossip about everyone at work. She approaches everyone in a conspiratorial voice to share the latest news. As a result, she actually has very few… Read more »
wellokaythen, I loved your comment above, by the way, you’re becoming one of my favorite commenters lately. Not that I play favorites. “Secrets” isn’t really the word I’m going for as much as “confidences.” Secret typically means there’s an explicit understanding that the information is not to be shared, but confidences – simply telling someone something deeply personal about yourself – are fuzzier. The expectation of privacy is implied/inferred but not explicitly agreed on. Take the easy example of a couple’s sex life. “Our” sex life is also “my” sex life so in the midst of conversation I may feel… Read more »
“I think if more women were aware of the way, and the reasons, many men feel silenced on the topic of marriage, it would prompt some healthy self-reflection about our own social habits.”
Oh my God, yes. Holy sh*t. Someone has been listening. Consider the favoritism mutual. : – )
I and many others in my generation embraced self-broadcasting everything, including the once-taboo topics of religion, sex and politics. Things that for others are automatically and implicitly private, are not understood the same way for me and many of my peers – I think we have a much lower expectation of privacy than generations before us. The flip side of busting open taboos and opening communication about EVERYTHING is that it can lead us to become careless, thoughtless and reckless with our own information and that which involves others. I think that’s a good and relevant insight. I’ve considered that… Read more »
Hmm…by “responded overwhelmingly” in that last comment, I meant that in my opinion, the main thrust of the female response were those kinds of comments, not that they came in to give men the boot from the conversation, or that there were no exceptions. IIRC, it was also more women than men who responded at length in that thread, esp. if you factor in that I practically cornered the market on the long-winded male responses in that one.
@Marcus Williams:
Excellent put, sir. I salute you. 🙂
(Your post also made me think about Noah Brand’s article “5 things women don’t know about men” or something to that regard, and the reponse it received.)
@KKZ:
I for one most often value your input in these discussions, and would consider it a loss if you stopped.
If more women felt that all sex, the gamut not just intercourse, was good for them and could frame it in less of a “pure, love, etc” kind of way, and saw it more akin on a spectrum of “things people enjoy and need to feel healthy” then perhaps the empathy could come in, in the “I need couch cuddle time/he needs sex” in order to feel close. But, often the framing is why won’t my wife give me sex as if it’s a trade or a commodities exchange and I suspect many women react to that and balk at… Read more »
@Julie Gillis
But, often the framing is why won’t my wife give me sex as if it’s a trade or a commodities exchange and I suspect many women react to that and balk at empathy
IME, esp. here at GMP, that framing of a trade or a commodities exchange most often come up in the responses.
i.e. He wants, she “withholds”, and the answer from the peanut gallery is always that he has to *give*more* (attention, affection, household work, footrubs, foreplay, whathaveyou…) in order to get some.
If more women felt that all sex, the gamut not just intercourse, was good for them and could frame it in less of a “pure, love, etc” kind of way, and saw it more akin on a spectrum of “things people enjoy and need to feel healthy” then perhaps the empathy could come in, in the “I need couch cuddle time/he needs sex” in order to feel close. I agree. (I think.) It’s so common it’s practically a cliché in discussions of men being “open about their feelings” of sexual frustration that one or more women will point out that… Read more »
Would you explain or unpack this?
“I think this owes largely to the combined risks of cheating and rape, which are strongly associated with sexual frustration.”
Do you honestly think men rape because of sexual frustration? How does that not play into the paradigm of men taking/women keeping that was mentioned earlier (and which I think permeates everything).
Rape is a taking of something, right? How is this born of sexual frustration rather than an entitlement?
Do you honestly think men rape because of sexual frustration? No. I honestly think a lot of women think men rape because of sexual frustration, and there’s a tendency to characterize sexually frustrated husbands as “rapey” or even outright rapists for things like whining for sex, trying to talk wives into sex, having sex with a wife who isn’t “enthusiastic” but consents because she feels guilty or tired of whining, etc. I think men being discouraged from expressing sexual frustration (at least in the culture I live in) happens on a broad scale. The particular spin that discourages it by… Read more »
Do I agree with you that men who write about marriage on GMP get harsher comments from women then men? Probably. Do I think that women get harsh comments when talking about men and marriage at GMP? Yeah. Do I think comments in general show a lack of empathy to the posters and other commenters? Yes. I think women react with lack of empathy because they either a) are waiting defensively for the blame of “holding back” or b) feel they have also not been given empathy about sex and not wanting it. So I think a loop happens. I… Read more »
I agree with most of what you say in this comment, but I want to clarify or expand a couple points. As for your first paragraph, I’m not familiar personally with women accusing their husbands of being “rapey” for wanting sex. I want to reiterate that in this thread, I have been describing in general the kind of reception pieces from men about marriage get, and how I believe that’s a contributing factor to why more men aren’t submitting such pieces. That said, I can’t point to examples of wives accusing their husbands of being rapey for wanting sex. I… Read more »
” because I can’t recall ever seeing advice to women about how they need to do more chores or offer footrubs at the end of a tiring day to get their man in the mood for sex, *especially* from other women.” maybe that’s because society, including women, believe that “real” man always want sex from women. That’s why its become problematic when a woman and a man enter a sexual relationship when the woman have higher sexual drive than the man, or just want sex more than the man. In my previous relationship, my ex girlfriend asking me if I’m… Read more »
God I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen a WOMAN (in my experience it’s pretty much always a woman for some reason?) post absolutely fucked up shit on facebook about their partner, stuff that should be settled offline, stuff that should be private. They publicly berate them for not doing this, or being grumpy n quite frankly I wouldn’t do that shit to an enemy let alone a friend. They treat the guy as a fucking moron, and what’s worse is the other hen’s (females who do the same shit) that chime in talking about their husbands or… Read more »
In my case if I ever get married, it would probably be to a Filipino woman half my age. We’d most likely have at least one kid and it would be early in the marriage. I’d probably never get divorced, but would need to find a bigger place for extended family. She’ll take care of me until I die because I have no intention of being a prick to her. I suppose I could write about this and then have every feminist out there criticize it as me being exploitative even if everyone in the household is fully content with… Read more »
Tell you what. I’ll blog about my marriage IF you can give me anonymity and – if necessary – access to a witness protection program.
LOL,my wedding was in a dark church on a cold rainy day. We “virtually eloped” in that we didn’t let the families know, out of guilt, the night before. Married in the Catholic church nonetheless. We were able to avoid the “announcement of the bands” in that the priest assumed my wife to be was pregnant. Gotta tell ya, it raised a lot of eye brows. Of course, she wasn’t. Fast forward to my daughters wedding? The wedding my wife never had? Ya think for a moment that I had any role in the planning? Let’s take it a step… Read more »
I was okay with things and so was the groom.
I think this byline pretty much says it all.
A wedding is not in any way about what the man, or the people involved as a couple, want. It’s mostly about stretching the limit about what the man is OKAY with.
“It’s no secret that wedding media and mythology target future brides. The vast majority of weddings I have attended, perhaps two dozen in all, cast the groom as a supporting actor, even a necessary sidekick or an afterthought.” This is clearly a key part of the answer. Marriage is something that is marketed (literally and figuratively) to women more than to men. Women are often placed in the role of being the ones in charge of relationship management, monitoring the status of the relationship, measuring how their romantic relationships relate to other parts of their lives, etc. If you think… Read more »
Sorry, that 90/10 percentage thing is a non-sequitur. You know what I was trying to say, right?
Well, I got the 90/10 thing, it is clear what you were driving at. AS for the wedding, it was probably just me, but I had nothing to say about anything. After my mother-in-law burst into tears and suggested we elope when we announced our engagement, I basically was shunted completely to one side. I had my eye on the main thing, and the wedding just became a trial to ignore and get through. ” Women are often placed in the role of being the ones in charge of relationship management, . . .” Well, perhaps. Seems to me that… Read more »
“Seems to me that they often place themselves in control.”
Good point. I fudged reality a little with passive voice, which is something I hate when other people do it.
I am guilty of that a lot, think I am trying to avoid conflict or something, not assign responsibility? slightly evade the issue? Ahhh, dunno why I do it
I enjoy my relationship with my wife now, although I didn’t enjoy it much earlier in the relationship. We’ve started over from scratch, basically. That’s where I’m coming from here. What I’ve noticed is that the way that our society currently talks about marriage appears to have a kind of split personality. On the one hand, a lot of people think that marriage is “under assault” somehow today, being dragged through the mud, shattered, etc. On the other hand, in part in response to this, a lot of people have simply re-invested in all the hopeful illusions of the romantic… Read more »
Brilliant comment, wellokay. Cheers and thank you.
Not an easy thing when the slightest expression of discontent often means one or more of the following: Did you really mean that, or did you mean “one of the following responses”? Because those types of responses are the kind of thing I’m arguing makes men reluctant to take that risk, but if you’re saying expressing any discontent actually means those things, this would be a rare instance where I disagree with you. It doesn’t fully explain why someone would be reluctant to speak as a single man writing under a pseudonym. If you’re afraid of anonymous castigation when you… Read more »
I see can see how my language could be confusing. Sometimes my sarcasm outruns my clarity. (Sometimes clarity never gets off the starting gate….) I meant that a man would often be branded with one of those labels, not that he was automatically guilty of being those things. I see your point about anonymity. It’s hard to make oneself vulnerable in some ways, whether anyone knows your name or not. Like at an AA meeting, where you don’t even have to give your real name, but it can still be a pretty massive leap to speak at one, even though… Read more »
What, no chuckle for Welliam Okaynder Then? I spent like fifteen minutes coming up with that. 😉
I always look forward to your comments.
I told Heather N. that I was Irish and my name was Well O’Kaythen, from County Bloggin.
Crickets.
I think there are many men who value (or maybe a better way to word this would be respect) the privacy of their marriage in a way that women can’t/don’t/won’t. I say this because I’m sure there are many men who would like to talk about their marriage but find that when they do they are accused of being disrespectful to their wife (oftentimes even by their wife) by women (see the above comment by JoAnne). This despite the fact that many wives, like rezam’s, have absolutely no qualms about spilling their guts about their marriage to anyone and everyone.… Read more »
I think Gint has his work cut out for him. The Marriage section of GMP is, I iamgine, probably the toughest to get any content for. If you’re a man writing about marriage, you’re either bragging or complaining — and either way I’m worried that I’d have to defend myself for what I’ve written (in a way that wouldn’t happen with writing fiction). It took a heart attack for me to write about my marriage. https://goodmenproject.com/marriage-2/marriage-before-during-and-after-a-heart-attack/ Without that “shield” of being sick, I’m not sure how safe I would feel about writing about my marriage. I prefer to write short… Read more »
“I think Gint has his work cut out for him. ”
I agree, but it might get a little easier as same sex marriage becomes legal in more places.
“I agree, but it might get a little easier as same sex marriage becomes legal in more places.”
I am curious. Why?
I would imagine that “same sex marriages” have all the same trials and tribulations of “different sex marriages”.
First it broadens the pool from which the articles could come, but I think part of it may come from the role and not necessarily just being male. A lot of men write about being dads. Men have been dads for a long time, but the trend of daddy blogging has started with the increase in the number of SAHDs. When men become a larger number of stay at home husbands, we might see more marriage writing. In a same sex relationship there will be a very good chance that one man has assumed the role of domestic partner.
Thank you for your clarification and explanation John. 🙂
and a man in a same sex marriage has a greater freedom to speak, without wondering if half his house etc will disappear in any ensuing controversy.
in a divorce court, would an article that is critical in some manner of a wife, create the same reaction if that same partner was a man(whether masc or femme)
There’s two assumptions here I don’t understand: 1) that if a man writes frankly about marriage, it implies saying really nasty things about his wife, and 2) that if a man shares his marriage experience (or at least if he writes about trouble with his wife), she will blow, possibly ask for divorce. Are your wives really that sensitive? Is their confidence that low? Are marriages that fragile? I know that after 25 years of marriage, we’ve had ups and downs. We’ve had out share of challenges. So do my wife. Some of them we probably still disagree about to… Read more »
On, and if we were to divorce, she wouldn’t be taking half of MY house. A most, she’d talk the half of the house that’s hers, because she paid for it. i own my houses(just a couple), from what i recall from men(here in the uk) in similar circumstances who bring these assets into a marriage, and then divorced after a maybe five yrs. they have to split these assets. the reverse does not happen to the same degree. There’s two assumptions here I don’t understand: 1) that if a man writes frankly about marriage, it implies saying really nasty… Read more »
I’m certain that a tactful post to GMP about my marriage, even one that discussed unpleasant and unfavourable things, wouldn’t be considered at all in “divorce court” where I live. The only thing such a court proceeding would have to consider would be child custody, and there’s just no way such a post could be relevant.
Is it possible there are cultural differences at play Lars? You mention “where you live”, and together with your first name . . . Is it possible that the court process and the likely impact of divorce is different for you? I ask because in some states in the US (I’m not from there), I understand that such material is evidence of an inability to co-parent after a divorce. I’m remembering Massachusetts . . . It gets tied up in the narrative that the most dangerous time for a woman is post-separation or divorce, leading to protective orders, leading to… Read more »
Lars is (was?) in Denmark if I recall correctly from some of his other writing. As for Massachusetts, where I live, the divorce courts are changing. It used to be that the man was always on hook for child support and alimony – and alimony was for life – pretty much irrespective of the woman’s financial standing and education. Child custody was assumed to go to the mother, again pretty much irrespective of the woman’s demonstrated ability to care for the children or the father’s desire for shared custody. The courts (as of a few years ago) now take these… Read more »
thanks for the updated info Cornelius
There’s two assumptions here I don’t understand: 1) that if a man writes frankly about marriage, it implies saying really nasty things about his wife, and 2) that if a man shares his marriage experience (or at least if he writes about trouble with his wife), she will blow, possibly ask for divorce. Regarding #1, I don’t think it’s implied that frank writing about marriage will necessarily be nasty, but aside from “marriage and my wife are great” articles, however sincere and touching those may be, men writing about marital challenges, problems, etc., do make themselves vulnerable, and the response… Read more »
About men being criticized for being too negative about their marriages: Looking back on it, I have to admit I’ve been guilty of the *opposite* reaction. Several times on GMP, when a man has written something romantic or sentimental or rose-colored about his marriage and/or his wife, I’ve been the first to suggest that he’s just following the party line and saying what he’s supposed to say. I accuse him of saying the “right answer” instead of telling the truth. It immediately sounds like some sort of propaganda message to me, when he could actually be sincere. That’s an equally… Read more »
Thanks for your reply, Marcus. I pretty much agree with what you say. There’s a lot of venom in some of the comments here (and lots of other places on the net). Writing, or just posting comments, definitely means sticking you neck out, and you run a big risk of being hung out to dry – especially if you post about vulnerabilities, or about gender issues. You’d have to have thick skin to write that kind of post here. By initial comment was specifically about the “my wife would ask for divorce” type reactions. I don’t get that. If I… Read more »
I would suspect it’s because marriage doesn’t offer much for men. There no longer exists the roles men used to fill in marriage – of protector or provider, though being unable to financially support a family still makes us losers. Add in the fact that most marriages end in divorce, and most divorces are initiated by women, and that women are far more likely to be awarded custody of the kids and alimony, marriage is simply too risky a bet for most men. (Nevermind the double standard that a woman demanding what she wants makes her strong and independent, while… Read more »
Why are men reluctant to write about marriage?
Considering MOST of the men opening up on another thread were just accused by a woman (or 2, though not sure how many the second one meant) of hating women for speaking up about inter-gender issues yet most weren’t comments of hate…..Do you blame them? For some women to criticize one woman is to criticize THEM ALL and be a woman-hater, that alone makes me reluctant to write on any issues about women let alone marriage. The quick trigger of accusing others of misogyny will probably keep some men quiet.
“It seems like it is acceptable to disrespect women in our culture. Men say and do disrespectful things to women all the time. No one seems to care.” Apart from millions of feminists n others who regularly call out sexism, even those who call out sexism against men whilst staying silent against the sexism directed at men. Women say and do disrespectful things to men quite often too, ever seen men on tv talk about cutting the genitals of their wife off because she cheated and having an audience of men laugh? Because I’ve seen 5 female talk show hosts… Read more »
It seems like it is acceptable to disrespect women in our culture. Men say and do disrespectful things to women all the time. No one seems to care. As soon as a woman says anything negative about a man it is considered male bashing. Women are expected to change their name when getting married. Men would never do that for a woman. When men have hobbies or time away, it is acceptable. When women do the same thing, they are considered selfish. Men don’t have it so bad.
Exhibit B.
JoAnne: I had a really long response to the OP, was typing it up in wordpad to cut and paste, then I read your reply. You answered every single thing the OP asked for as to why men don’t write articles about marriage.
Though I doubt you realize that you did answer every single thing the OP asked for. Men open up and when they do, they aren’t showing respect for women or are woman haters.
Bingo, Marcus and Acer.
JoAnne, congrats on the repeat Gold Medal in the Victim Olympics.
What anthem would be played when she’s standing on the top of the medals platform? I’m thinking something from the Lilith Fair, perhaps.
Oh, please. JoAnne hardly is alone in playing Victim Olympics here (if that’s how you want to label it), and she’s far from a gold medal contender in this crowd.
I mean, are you even reading the comments?
JoAnne:
Do you realize that in another of your posts in this thread, you said that we all need to stop stereotyping one another? Do you realize that you, in this post, stereotyped all men? Do you realize that there is blanket opposition to your post? Did you notice that*this* part of yours did nothing in answering the question originally posed?
Yes. You did that. Now stop blaming men, or go someplace where that is acceptable.
yes, because its not okay to stereotype women, but its okay to stereotype men. Because when women do that, its because of their bad experience ( like men dont have bad that experience with women ), so its justified.
Yay to generalize and stereotype men!!!! All men are sexist misogynist jerk asshole pig etc etc etc ..!! YAY!!!!!!!!!!! Oh no, not ALL MEN! Just MOST men!! My husbands and sons are not…. YAY!!!!!!!! ( Like it have any difference between saying all men and most men are jerks lol )
Who says it’s OK to stereotype men? JoAnne is doing it, but that does not make it OK. Just like there’s men who stereotype women, and that’s not OK.
Well, I am everything you said. . . always wanted to be part of the club. Where is my membership card?
Ah, well, if men don’t have it so bad, that must be why so few men want to talk about marriage. Must be married men are basically all content and everything is working out for their benefit, so why rock the boat, huh? Somehow that doesn’t seem a very plausible explanation….
In considering the two women whom I’ve come closest to marrying, the feeling from my perspective is that I was more “resigned to” or “accepting of” marrying them. There really wasn’t an opportunity for me to have an active voice in the situation. As strong as the assumption is that men are supposed to be the “active pursuers” in sort of traditional “Western” courtship rituals, it seemed that once the topic turned to marriage my voice was not only irrelevant, but structurally not even considered. Heck, one of the women had all the details worked out. Down to planning to… Read more »
I have a happy marraige, and it would make for very boring (or self-congratulatory) copy.
I suspect those with happy marraiges don’t write much about it for that same reason, and those who have more difficult marraiges want to keep things more quiet.
@ Scott I’m with you. I’m happily married and love the life I’ve built with my wife, but I’m not so presumptuous as to believe that that grants me any special insight into marriage or how to make it work. And I think any effort to relay what works for me, no matter how well-intentioned, probably would come off more smug than helpful …. especially among those who have been unable or are uninterested in making marriage work. Also, many (if not most) pieces around here that cast marriage in a favorable light are typically met in the comments with… Read more »
@Scott AND Pastorofpuppets …. I agree with you. I’ve been married 39 years and to write about it would make a very boring read for those who don’t personally know me. I can, at times give snippets of things about my marriage but overall … Yawn. But there is something said “Also, many (if not most) pieces around here that cast marriage in a favorable light are typically met in the comments with a great deal of cynicism, if not outright derision. Who needs that?” I overwhelmingly agree with this. I’ve said in responses to other articles, I sometimes feel… Read more »
Interesting observation— perhaps certain men do view marriage in a negative light for whatever reason: surrendering to the creation of a peaceful domestic home ( becoming like their fathers— if that has some sort of negative connotation), giving up “The Game” ( I notice on RSD — Real Social Dynamics/ Tyler, that Owen continues the game even though he is the father of two boys with his GF), dealing with staying home and child care instead of hanging out with the boys at the usual local bar….I think especially around recently divorced men, it is really hard to talk about… Read more »
The assumption that men want some experience at a local bar? You know, I know plenty of dads who tell their old “friends” they have child-rearing duties and errands on nights when they’ve made a deal with their partner to get a few hours to relax and choose to read or go to the gym. A lot of other men have never known that bar. If a guy gets married despite preferring evenings in a local bar, he needs to re-evaluate himself in more ways than one.
See what happened there, Gint? Someone raised the kind of vulnerable topic a man might write about, “dealing with staying home…instead of hanging out with the boys…”, which is probably a not-infrequent kind of feeling about how marriage changes social habits and relationships with friends, and you reflexively characterized it as “preferring” the bar (not just “dealing with”), and a statement about how such a man needs to re-evaluate himself that sounded on the judgmental side. I’m not saying you’re a dick for responding like this, Gint. I’m saying this is how people respond to men making themselves vulnerable about… Read more »
With all due respect to both Gint and Marcus (love all your insights here!)…. I personally hated it when I saw my hubby and his English buddy go off to the local bars and leave the family behind (BTW the English guy is divorced twice and on his 3rd marriage, with a 7 yo boy from the 2nd marriage…and I have stopped talking with him years ago!)…. But I must say that when my husband and I attended the baby shower of my karate sensei this summer, my hub couldn’t help but remark how unprepared for fatherhood he was back… Read more »
Please try to not take this personally. THIS is a big part of why I will not write on this subject, anywhere. My wife felt it perfectly appropriate to discuss everything about our marriage with her friends and family, colleagues, and frankly, anyone she hit it off with in the first 10 minutes. Nothing was confidential, nothing was intimate, nothing was too personal. And everything was, naturally, couched in her perspective. After a while, when I found out that the husbands of her friends (who were not my friends) knew personal, intimate details of my life history prior to our… Read more »
Rezam, It sounds like your wife did some hurtful things. It was wrong of her to do those things to you. It is unfortunate that she was so disrespectful. There are good and bad husbands ans wives. We should stop stereotyping men and women.
I don’t know that I would characterize her as bad. It caused me pain, and some humiliation, and from my perspective changed our relationship. Did she intend that? I don’t know. I think she was either oblivious or thought that I would not find out.
I have seen articles where women are quite open about doing this kind of thing. I have no idea how many this applies to, or if it is a subset of a particular culture.
rezam, I think your experience is on the money! My SO & I are doing some “pre-engagement” work, discussing our answers to questions about our thoughts, beliefs, and experiences. With an eye towards being a team of 2, and not having a relationship “by committee,” I prefaced our discussions with one condition: that we keep our answers privately between the two of us. She really, REALLY struggled with it, but agreed. And while I’m happy she did, I know that I’m going to have to check in, and re-emphasize how important it is to me from Timmy to time. Even… Read more »
You, too huh? I’ve come to the conclusion it’s a weapon of some kind. Let’s reveal anything and everything about you and see how that works out. Just try to turn that one around and see what happens…LOL.
Gint – your comment seem to imply that a man must either want to stay at home with his family every single night, or it must be that the got married despite really preferring nights at the bar. Why is that? Why this 100% either / or? You know, I’ve been married 25 years. My wife and I are raising children, sharing responsibilities, blah blah. And you know what’s more? Sometimes I like to go out, with friends and co-workers, or the soccer buddies, and have a couple of beers, or more, So will my wife. Does that mean we’d… Read more »
And yet half of all marriages in the U.S. end in divorce. Sure some men may be exaggerating their situations, but there may also be some truth to what they say. People are also putting marriage off for longer periods of time and there are (I believe) more never marrieds.
@ Lela
I don’t think it’s the game for most guys. Maybe the guys who got married too young or for the wrong reasons. I-Village 2013 married sex survey reported that most men (68%) said that married sex was the best sex they ever had. I’m pretty sure most guys didn’t marry the hottest, most sexually adventurous woman they met. I’m pretty sure it was the absence of the game, the lack of pressure to have sex, which made it the best sex they ever had.
http://www.ivillage.com/married-sex-survey-results-sex-week/6-b-520245#520280
@ John Anderson:
Really? I wonder about that… just from the men that I see around me….they say one thing in public but do something else in private….
Have you seen the RSD/Tyler Durden youtube videos? Owen Cook makes it sound like a guy is a dope if he buys into the traditional monogamy model…or if he even bothers to buy flowers or dinner…or anything for a girl he likes….it seems like he and his PUAs just like to brag about how many girls they can “pull”…the more the better…and at the same time…..
PUAs are not majority of men Jeez
You can’t base your opinion about the average guy on what you see on PUA vlogs. That would be like taking the average height of NBA players and determining that the average man was 6′ 6″.
A woman complained to a relationship counselor that her husband didn’t open up to her. He told her she needs to get him comfortable and in the mood to talk. He told her to approach conversation like she wanted him to approach sex with foreplay. Start by talking about things that he would like to talk about. When men are taught from a young age that the only emotion you’re allowed to show is anger, it’s probably a good thing men aren’t writing about marriage. Unmarried men and maybe even married men might have also come to the conclusion that… Read more »
Gint, I think you’re mistaking husbands not saying much for not having much to say. The reason isn’t lack of thoughts or feelings on the subject, but the fact that it’s socially and culturally unacceptable for men to speak publicly of marriage or their wives in anything but the most complimentary terms. That has been demonstrated many times over even here at GMP, where men who share vulnerable feelings about marriage or other relationships are quickly blamed and scolded for any troubles or struggles they share. (God forbid a man say anything unflattering about his wife’s breasts.) I’m not saying… Read more »
But why wouldn’t the enthralled husband want to do it? We have to guess he exists. Is the story of he happy husband cliche? Threatening? Are we so crass as a society that we’ll never believe him? A lot of really great writers have treated the subject, it’s complexity and difficulty, over the centuries. Maybe it was easier for them when there was no comment board.
A means for a married man – or a few – to post articles and talk about their problems within the context of their marriage but to do so anonymously, would perhaps get around the stigma.
What marital hardships, or potentially unflattering things about his wife, could a man write about at GMP that wouldn’t be setting himself up for a smackdown? There’s no upside unless the writer literally cares nothing about the reception of the piece, and only writes it for the catharsis.
i agree, would be risky to write in such a manner. the man would be moving himself closer to the court of divorce – and losing half his house, flat, salary, pension, and the children
I am just recently divorced, as in less than two weeks ago. It is still too fresh for me. I keep thinking of Wordsworth for some reason and his poem “Lines” (composed a few miles above Tintern Abbey, yadda, yadda, yadda) which was presented to me as an undergraduate as a kind of blueprint for how we write: “While with an eye made quiet by the power/ Of harmony, and the deep power of joy/ We see into the life of things.” So the reason for this pretentious-seeming quote from Wordsworth, I think, is that my eye is not yet… Read more »
Hang in there, Frank.
Your perspective is extremely important, and clarity will come in time, I’m sure.
The men I know don’t talk about marriage because we shoulder the responsibility for it. We don’t air our “dirty laundry,” and we surely don’t ask for help!
But we DO LISTEN. We do try to improve. We do appreciate when other men speak up, and we sometimes wish we did, too.
I also think that men tend to not enter marriage as starry-eyed as women. We expect some difficulties, and – as Grim says above – we endure it…
…because we have always EXPECTED TO.
By “shoulder responsibility,” do you mean that we assume we are personally responsible for our wives’/partners’ feelings? Is that fair to either partner? Even if it’s something we expect ourselves to be responsible for early in our marriages, doesn’t that crumble before our eyes within minutes when we get into the nuts and bolts of life together?
The idea that husbands are supposed to “make their wives” happy is, indeed, internalized. Do men remain silent about marriage because we realize some state of happiness is always out of reach? This expectation is in serious need of investigation.
Gint:
No, I don’t mean other people’s feelings. When I said we “shoulder responsibility for it,” I meant for the marriage/family itself. And I think that feeling is actually healthy: healthier, still, when both partners feel it.
Now, I am not saying that I think that women DON’T take responsibility for the marriage (quite the contrary, actually). But I think it manifests in different ways, and at different times.
I believe you have mis-read my original post.
But, to the original question (about why men don’t tend to post about marriage), what do YOU think, Gint?
I’ll write an essay about it soon. In short, I think we believe we will either be betraying a pact or opening ourselves up to criticism that is particularly painful. I’m struggling to articulate the nature of that pain, the core of it, hence this thread..
I think you’ve got some great stuff here already, but probably could use a team of psychologists & sociologists to help dissect it all. When it comes down to it, men are more vulnerable than most people – men & women alike – are willing to admit.
I’m not so sure about that pact notion you mentioned. I think women tend to think we collude when we don’t.
Good luck, good fortune, & Blessings.
‘m open to criticism myself, but I’m more likely to praise in public and critique in private. As such, I don’t write about my marriage because it would be an inaccurate picture if I only reflect on the good without also including the bad. It would be a disservice to any readers to only present the highlight reel of my marriage without tempering it with some of the lows.