“Why should the guy put in more effort (romance) to get what BOTH people want (sex and intimacy)?”

This is a comment by Tim & Jules on the post “The Appeal of ‘Bad Boys’“.

Tim said:

“Because romance and wooing is, more often than not, one sided. Ideally, why should a man need to put more effort to get what they both want—sex and intimacy?

“If a man is desirable, if a woman is truly attracted to a man—physically and sexually—he wouldn’t need to bend backwards to earn sex and affection from her. But you imply that men need to earn sex from women.

“Why shouldn’t sex happen naturally and effortlessly for both partners, if both of them need it equally? If after marriage, a man removes the aspect of wooing, charming and earning sex/affection from a woman, then that aspect was unfair to begin with.”

Jules responded:

“Your points are well taken and respected. So, in essence what you are saying it that is is an exchange: romance and wooing for the woman in exchange for sex?

“Well, If that is what is happening, then I guess it is so. But, if the woman loves her husband and views him as sexually attractive, then why is the romance and wooing really necessary?

“While married, my ex-wife and I did dinner dates, traveled, stayed at local hotels for a weekend … Still the sex was only once a month. So, my point is there is no guarantee this will work.

“The larger issue for me is just why is it necessary. I cannot grasp why some women will engage in casual sex with some men (no romance and wooing needed) but demand romance and wooing from the man they profess to love … Do you see my point?

“Perhaps my view is too logical? All I know from recent experience is I an enjoying great regular sex with two FWB partners with little romance and wooing. Hence, my view that being a lover beats being a husband, hands down.” 

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  1. Dunno where to put this post:
    I think we need to get real here. Because sometimes, when talking about dating with women, it feels like I’m talking to my sexist Russian male relatives. Kind of getting the same vibes.

    Women what do you do in these scenarios:
    1.A guy approaches you at a party. You are initially attracted. Nut the attraction goes down when you se that he is nervous and isn’t leading the interaction to what both of you want (sex/date/exchanging of numbers).
    Do you A: Feel disappointed that nothing will happen/start to feel creeped out because he doesn’t have any social skills/ Get frustrated and annoyed because there doesn’t seem to be any real men out there anymore.
    Or
    B:try to ease some of his nervousness (because you yourself is nervous) and amp the initial attraction you felt by helping him relax and be his natural non-nervous self/ you are confident and you take charge of the interaction and you build up that attraction that was between yourselves again.
    2. Your partner hasn’t made a romantic gesture for you for some time. He hasn’t ravished you for some time or been spontaneous for a while. When asking him why he bluntly says that it doesn’t excite him anymore it to repetitive and dull and he sees it as work.
    Do you A: Get angry at him because he claimed that he doesn’t love you anymore/ try to show him ways to get that feeling back so that he can shower you with attention again
    Or
    B: Look at your relationship and see that he is always the one that initiates everything and understand why that can be tiring. You look for ways to do romantic things together.
    3. fewer and fewer men want to get married. More and more men are cynical of women and are distrustful of women. PUA’s is on the rise. Men seem to be more bitter and bitter.
    Do you A: Get angry and call these men misogynists/ hears their problems and thinks that it has nothing to do with you.
    Or
    B: Ask yourself where the bitterness comes from and thinks about if you or your female friends have done some of the things that the men are complaining about.
    If you have picked A in any of these aren’t you a sexist? There is a theme in these questions, responsibility. Something that I haven’t seen from women, not even women on this site.
    I have seen excuses: That the role of the initiator is male because of genetics, that it is men fault that women don’t initiate, that our problems are trivial, et fucking c.
    If you want a male partner, act as a fucking partner. Step up.

  2. Why should the guy woo a female? The combination of Evolution/adrenaline making the guy want to do the initial chasing and the beauty of the ritual itself. Wooing is supposed to be a pleasurable bonding activity which then *should* release chemicals in the body/brain such as vasopressin etc.

    Problems I think arise when the female isn’t allowed to reciprocate in the ritual creating an imbalance and thus resentment on the part of the male. In my mother’s country (as well as others) there is more of a wooing/counter wooing thus making the ritual more “even” for lack of a better term. In a culture (such as America) where women are (still unfortunately) primarily valued for their “outer beauty” men do not seem to value women who return the favour right away – either through kindness, baked goods, offers of help, wishes to pay for half the meal and/or sexual activity. The make brain being primed to value more what is harder to achieve – with NO cultural factors training him to think in the other direction – tends to interpret “kindness” (or at the very least mutual interest of whatever kind) as being “easy” and/or desperate – even when this isn’t the case.

    A sad state of affairs indeed! What COULD have evolved into a lovely ritual of mutual respect and admiration has devolved into a larger materialistic pitting of men against women.

  3. I guess what I’m trying to say is that throwing out the wooing is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. However should it be more even? ABSOLUTELY!

    • Women need to give us something to woo. It’s not enough to show up in bed and be willing once in a while. If a woman wants to be treated like she’s special, be special! If you want your man to be excited about you, be exciting.

      Or don’t. All the advice of wooing and seducing makes it seem–at least to me–like married sex life is a sisyphian task of managing your wife’s libido. Except that poor guy had it easy, at least he was rolling it uphill. I’ve got to roll it just to stay in place! Or roll it and watch her lose interest in our sex life anyway.

      But if I’m supposed to woo and all I get out of it is the occasional lackluster bj or her being willing to compromise and have sex a couple times a week… I’m cursing myself and counting the days till the kids are old enough.

      • Check out Athol Kay’s “Married Man Sex Life” (book, blog, and forum). It’s the most comprehensive and the best guide to relationship game out there.

  4. People just misunderstand seduction. “Romance” and “wooing” (god I hate that word, it’s so juvenile) isn’t taking her out to dinner at some fancy restaurant. All that does is demonstrate your Provider qualities, the depth of your financial resource, and while some women will settle for a Provider no women is sexually aroused by one, ever. Taking her out to dinner and guiding her to her seat with your hand on the back of her neck is seduction. Outlining what you’re going to do to her later that night over your mussels is seduction. Swatting her ass discreetly in the restaurant corridor is seduction. Basically all those things that the seduction community tells you to do are seduction and work to build attraction, and all those things your Average Married Person thinks are seduction actually aren’t. The principles of seduction are every bit as true in a LTR as when looking for casual hookups. Seduction routines – Game – are a fundamental part of my everyday interactions with my girlfriend, even though I don’t consciously think about them as such at the time. As a result she’s constantly attracted to and aroused by me, and we have sex like crazed sadomasochistic rabbits. Don’t get me wrong, though, she does her fair share too – dresses how I like, does her hair how I like, keeps in shape, is awesome in bed.

  5. Or, the short version: I’ll “step up” when I feel a man puts as much effort into attracting me as I do into attracting him.

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