Matthew Salesses sees rape apologetics where there should be a change of heart about a supposed “nice guy.”
So, I just read “Nice Guys Commit Rape Too” in my home-away-from-home, The Good Men Project.
I have done plenty of things I am not proud of. I am not going to say I’m a good person. Let’s get that out of the way with first.
I want to talk about excuses.
I want to talk about society and men and rape.
First of all, I know it comes off a little ridiculous, a man saying this.
Society, or at least American media and culture, is terrible at talking about rape. Blaming the victim is a huge problem. Hypersexualized media has, for sure, an influence on the behaviors and expectations of people.
That is an important conversation to have, and one we should be having. But tying that conversation into the story of a specific instance of rape, where a man sleeps with a woman while the woman is literally sleeping, seems to me to be the wrong point of departure.
Society isn’t an individual. Society has its faults and they are terrifying and powerful. But one man who rapes a sleeping woman—there are plenty of other occasions to call for societal reform.
This essay says this man is a nice guy, a good person, and tries to understand why this happened, this nice guy rapist. It’s not as simple, the writer says, as him putting his penis in her. The writer wants to look at society.
It may make sense to say society is telling men to read signals wrongly. It may make sense to say society is telling women to send signals. But it doesn’t make sense to say society is telling this man, this man who comes to see what he has done as rape, to misread sleep as a signal for sex. And it seems almost as dangerous to me to reframe this story around society as it is for society to reframe rape around the victim. Both ways are removing the language of blame from the rapist.
The writing of this article, and the conversation to hash out why the rape happened—these seem to me to be excuses. She says she is not excusing the man. What he did was rape, and he is responsible for it. But simply admitting a point doesn’t let you then move away from it. It’s not like checking it off a list. And you don’t get to have your cake and eat it, too. You don’t get to say the man is responsible for his own actions and then say:
Rape is what happens when we aren’t allowed to discuss sex and sexuality as if it were as natural as food, and instead shroud it in mysterious languages and grant it mysterious powers and lust for it like Gollum after the ring. Rape is what happens we don’t even understand what sex and sexuality are, but use them for everything anyway.
You don’t get to say rape is what happens when a man has sex with a woman while she is asleep and then say rape is what happens when society does so-and-so.
There is a place for the conversation about rape and our sexualized media and culture.
There is also a place for a person to say, I thought this person was a friend and a nice guy, but then I found out that he is a rapist and it changed how I thought of him and how he thought of himself. Instead of any attempt at rectification—at least as I far as I can tell from the essay—this man split town. How does this essay get away from this man? Putting the larger part of the focus on society—even after saying the man is responsible—suggests that the writer believes the more responsible factor is society, no matter the disclaimers.
This was previously published on Matthew Salesses has a Tumblr.
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Image credit: butupa/Flickr
Thank so much for this article Matthew. I know the writer of the previous article was trying to fix rape problem in society, she tried to see whats wrong with it. But I feel the article is an excuse, a horrible excuse. And also it’s a shaming to actual nice guys who don’t commit rape. He had sex with sleeping women, and he knew it. Then he raped. Its not society’s fault, its hes fault. Hes not a nice guys. Nice guys don’t rape. He maybe not a really bad person and he was making a fault, but don’t put… Read more »
Amen.
I second that!
I third that. He is a rapey rapist, and not a nice guy, and the article may have bordered on apologist in places if it weren’t for the constant reinforcement that all blame is his. However, now that we have apportioned blame correctly to the rapist, we should look at how he became a bad person who didn’t care about consent. He doesn’t appear to fit the coercive, recidivist “Meet the Predators” mold and I assume he wasn’t born a rapist so clearly a look at what led him to rape is necessary. Finally, since he sounds repentant – is… Read more »
That’s what I”m talking.
I’m waiting for everyone to get the “But….he’s a raaaaapist!!!!” out of there system so that they can realize that constantly calling him a rapist from here to eternity really doesn’t address the problem.
The “Meet the Predators” rapists don’t sound altogether changeable, however this guy might be?
Yes. It’s like folks are actually okay with this guy having no hope of changing as long as they get to stand on their moral high grounds and call him a rapist for like the next forever.
“Yes. It’s like folks are actually okay with this guy having no hope of changing as long as they get to stand on their moral high grounds and call him a rapist for like the next forever.” On the other hand you have to remember that there are people who have been raped that *will* read this, and I don’t think the original article did a good enough job of cushioning the impact on them of exploring the seeming normalcy and niceness of some rapists to their friends and loved ones. A lot of the criticism has I think totally… Read more »
On the other hand you have to remember that there are people who have been raped that *will* read this, and I don’t think the original article did a good enough job of cushioning the impact on them of exploring the seeming normalcy and niceness of some rapists to their friends and loved ones. But that’s not what the complaints are. It wasn’t “you’re don’t doing a good enough job of accounting for the feelings of rape victims” it was “you’re teh rape apologiizers OMGWFTBBQeleventyone!!!!” A lot of the criticism has I think totally missed the point of the article… Read more »
At first I was thinking that the original essay existed because the author had a need to rationalize this “Nice Guy” doing something horrible. It’s tempting to think of him as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But, if she has seen him being genuinely nice on multiple occasions, it would be far-fetched to say that was all a lie. Even if he did fit the stereotype of a misogynist Frat-Bro desperate to get laid, there would still be certain life experiences that led to that. It’s never as simple as saying “Bad People do Bad Things”.
I agree with Archie and Mr Supertypo.
A major problem with societal discourse in the U.S. currently is that many people think declaring “personal responsibility” absolves us from having to examine the sources of our problems. This simply reflects the attitude that “I cannot imagine this happening to me, so its not my problem.”
I consider this attitude to be an excuse society uses to avoid dealing with its problems.
Yup. Upper class white people love to reduce crime in the ghetto down to “Murder is what happens when someone murders someone!” and “Theft is what happens when someone decides to steal!” or “Drug use is what happens when someone decides to use drugs!” To them, daring to discuss distal factors such as economics, racism, education, hopelessness, etc.. well, that’s “apologism”. Or even better, “there’s a place for that kind of discussion, but we can’t apply it to THIS individual circumstance. In THIS circumstance, we should just say the bad person did the bad thing!” I really don’t understand –… Read more »
“Upper class white people”… Way to start a comment with a racists statement. Yes, “upper class white people” are responsible for stopping all debate. The problem is not “upper class white people” at all, if such a group even exists as a cohesive identity. The problem is society as a whole, at all levels and all races, tends to look on the idea that there must be a reason for crime to be looking for an excuse. Unable separate the cause and the crime itself as if finding a reason takes away from the impact. Unfortunately the US is so… Read more »
So, did you notice that I was referencing how upper class white people ***conceptualize crime in the ghetto***? And not how “upper class white people” are the problem for everything?
Analogies are hard to understand sometimes. I get it.
Yes, we need to talk about rape as a society in better context than we do now. Yes, we need to better educate people about consent, particularly when it comes to alcohol and consent. But framing the debate around someone who commits a rape and talking about using nuance to try to really *understand* him takes the responsibility away from the rapist and turns it into a “well, yeah he raped her. But she totally was giving mixed signals, and so society is to blame,” non sequitur. The message is muddied by the personal relationship with the rapist. There are… Read more »
Personally I’d just like women to held to the same standards as they tend to hold men to. These statements that require clear verbal consent before every action, need to be applied to all……the idea that drunken sex is always done under the man’s agency, is ludacris. “Suger and spice and everything nice” is just a nusery rhyme.
Of course women should be held to the same standard. Men should not be “coerced” into sex (i.e., raped).
These type statements lead to a very slippery slope of what is and what is not rape. If This was rape then I’ve been raped by my wife……I been wheedled and whined, shown that there would be negative consequences if I demurred. That’s life. Most guys have a few stories of unwanted/unwelcome sex, where they did what was expected of them to smooth over what would otherwise become a problem in the relationship. If these rules apply at all then they need to be applied too all.
Nah, did you have consent to enter her…?
Actions doesn’t mean anything. Just because she’s sitting on you doesn’t mean you have been given consent. You Sir, are also a Rapist. Better pack your stuff and get out of town before thay come for you with the pitchforks…
… did you mean to reply to a different post?
What bothered me most about the original “Nice Rapist” article was that the writer said they (the guy and the woman) have known each other for weeks. To me, it doesn’t matter so much what kind of and how many signals she had sent and whatever role society plays in this – the striking point to me seems to be that he had had PLENTY of opportunities to make a move on her while she was awake, while she could accept or decline. Why didn’t he? Why did he choose to not only come on to her for the very… Read more »
Thank you for this. This is a great great point.
My guess is liquid courage, he may have been too shy beforehand to make a move. From my understanding they fooled around in bed and fell asleep naked together so before the rape it appears he and her already made their moves? But I’m guessing alcohol made one or both pass out and he woke up? It’s pretty unclear though, I hope the author can elaborate further because it’s at best a guessing game. Was he caught up in the moment drunk n horny? Only he knows.
It’s also unclear why she didn’t make a move earlier either. The whole thing is extremely murky, we don’t have the information the author has and while this post has spurred dialogue, I’m not sure how useful it winds up being because we have extrapolations right and left, and no understanding of what really happened. The best case scenario around sex is that both partners are excited eager and engaged in the pursuit of mutual pleasure and funtimes. That takes a particular level of communication, honesty, and clarity. Many people it seems (and in this case at least) wind up… Read more »
Maybe one of the reasons conversations like these are so hard, is because we have all (at least most of us) fumbled blindly in the dark and have had situations come up that don’t sit well with us over time. And we want to not feel that we were like that, or are capable of “that” and so we engage in defense and magical thinking about it all, we move goal posts, hoping to find the most precise line where this is ok and “that’ is not because if we intellectualize it, it won’t have happened in the past, or… Read more »
I’d love to hear from the OP’s man in question to give his side. Too many assumptions flying around, this could be purposeful rape or accidental rape.
Archy, I think the conversation of we-don’t-know-the-details is irrelevant, because we have been told the relevant facts (I am taking the author’s narration of the story at face value here). What is relevant? He did something everyone can agree on being really, really intimate, with another being that did not give consent because she wasn’t even able to. He should have asked. He should have woken her up, at least. Full stop. Alcohol doesn’t excuse lack of consent. Being horny does not excuse lack of consent. Her behavior up to that moment doesn’t excuse lack of consent. Shyness doesn’t excuse… Read more »
Yes yes let’s get them pitchforks, RAPIST RAPIST BURN HIM AT THE STAKE. We know for a fact he purposely raped her and never was under any indication he had consent or was confused about her stage of alertness (it’s not mentioned that I see if he realized she was awake or asleep). Seriously, no wonder sex crimes get an automatic reputation killer on accustion, because so few are willing to actually talk about why someone rapes. If you want to call it irrelevant, then leave and don’t talk about it? The rest of us who want to talk about… Read more »
Dearest Archy, since you seem so muddled: If you penetrate a woman when she’s asleep, you are raping her. That makes you a bad person, even if you save puppies and carry old people’s groceries for them in your spare time.
There is no such thing as accidental rape.
( No need for the name calling. – GMP Moderator) There is such a thing as accidental rape, it has to do with the intention of the rapist. Drugs n alcohol can impair a person’s judgement hugely where they may not notice someone has passed out during sex so at the point that person has passed out they are now raping them, the time period from then until they realize would be the accidental rape area. It’s no excuse but it does separate them in my mind based on intention, I have more hate for those who purposely rape. I’d… Read more »
Well said. The way we approach, and discuss (or, more usually, fail to discuss) human sexuality is a big part of the problem. For quite some time, I remember beleiving that I was expected to just be able to read my partners signals, the whole “If you have to ask, you ruin the mood” attitude. And that always bothered me, because I never knew what the signals were and it felt like the only way I’d be able to learn was trial and error. In effect, I’d have to take my best guess and hope I didn’t overstep someone elses… Read more »
“He had plenty of time to make a move, why didn’t he?”
IDK, but fooling around naked together in bed sounds pretty much like “making a move” to me.
(No, it’s not consent for penetration, but I’d still say it counts as making a move.)
Also, we don’t know what happened prior to them/her falling asleep.
Wasn’t the point of the article to lay blame on a society that doesn’t clearly teach boundaries and allows mixed signals to exist in the first place? Yeah the guy raped, but WHY did he rape? I can see that society’s views on sex n consent may confuse some people so he may have genuinely thought it ok at the time. Trying to work out why someone rapes isn’t always rape apology and whilst her words may seem that way I think her intention was solely to find out why a nice guy (up to that point) could suddenly rape… Read more »
I agree Archy, in my opinion, it get’s lame when people jump out and point the finger at somebody. Rape is rape and its wrong. I don’t think you find lot of people around here who condone rape. But I think we need to set aside the ‘ blame ‘ factor. We need to understand what, how and why happens. What are the dynamics involved, what are the circumstances ect. So we can learn from it, and prevent it. To me the blame is intellectual laziness, perhaps even lack of interest (hey look at me, blame blame blame, and then… Read more »
So, what you’re saying is “Ignore all details and circumstance and grab this pitchfork and join this mob.”
“You don’t get to say rape is what happens when a man has sex with a woman while she is asleep and then say rape is what happens when society does so-and-so.”
Uh yes, you do, when society doing so and so IS WHAT LEADS DIRECTLY TO a man having sex with a woman while she is asleep.
What led directly to this man raping this woman was his arrogant belief that he had a right to her body without her explicit consent. That’s rape! Not society’s messages, not misunderstanding, not poor men being sooooooo confused about whether women have to be awake before well-meaning nice guys penetrate them.
Agreed Tinfoil!
If I’m reading this right- it is in response to the previously published “Nice Guy” rapist story, based upon the recollection of a couple of fools with Asmuch veracity as the shirtless fools drunkenly proclaiming on Fox’s COPS.
Christ on a bicycle “they fell asleep” my ass. They fell asleep like the drunk who falls asleep with a lit cigarette and incinerates her family.
Thank you. Rape is what happens when someone rapes someone.
Society is responsible for the messages and lessons it sends and the results therefrom. In this case, the guy figured he wasn’t likely to get any action from a woman who was conscious and decided to take the low road. I don’t care for parsing social messages because anybody can pick one or another and claim it has sovereign powers to affect/infect everything it touches, while another person can claim the same for some different message. Meantime, we have free will. That said, I don’t see anybody actually reducing the guy’s blame. Claiming that is a bullshit tactic used against… Read more »
Except that it’s not like that at all. Because there is a major social and public movement AGAINST driving drunk. There are PSAs on television warning against driving drunk. Kids are taught in public schools about drunk driving–the risks, the consequences, the penalties, *why it’s wrong,* *how not to do it.* Former drunk drivers go on lecture tours around the country to try and prevent drunk driving. Police officers don’t ask victims hit by drunk drivers why they weren’t driving more defensively. And no one views drunk driving as ambiguous or makes apologies for drunk drivers–no one’s out there saying,… Read more »