Get the Sex You Want

Doctor NerdLove offers guys a step-by-step guide to creating a more fulfilling sex life.

So the other day, one of my exes was hitting me up for some relationship advice  ((And this right here is likely the most unbelievable thing I have ever written)). She and her boyfriend were having issues connecting sexually. They were amazingly compatible in just about every area of their relationship except sex. The sex was just… enh.

My first question whenever someone tells me that their sex life is on the downward spiral is “Well… have you talked about it?” Not surprisingly, the answer was “no.” In fact, just about every time that’s the answer I get. My follow-up answer is almost always “Why the hell not?”

“Because Jackson1 thinks that it’s supposed to come naturally. If you spend too much time talking about it or making it happen it’s just not genuine,” she said.

This was the point when I asked for his address so I could beat him about the head and shoulders with the Chair Leg of Truth.

Unfortunately, this attitude—that if you’re really compatible, the sex should be completely unplanned, undiscussed and magic all by itself—is absurdly common. Somewhere along the lines, the idea developed that if you have to actually think about and talk about sex, you’re doing it wrong, and it causes no end of stress to otherwise happy relationships. This is one of the most asinine memes I have ever run across and not a day goes by that I wish I couldn’t kill it with fire.

Sex is an incredibly important part of a long-term relationship, and sexual dissatisfaction is one of the top relationship killers. Good sex requires more than just compatible genitals and it’s more than just knowing mechanical tricks like the reverse corckscrew swirl or the Rusty Venture; it requires a willingness to investigate, to really get aquainted with what it is you like and—most importantly—being able to communicate what you want to your partner.

So let’s talk about what it takes to actually get the sex you want.

 

Get In Touch With Yourself (By Touching Yourself)

Hey, don’t knock masturbation. It’s sex with someone I love.
– Woody Allen

Jerking off doesn’t get enough credit in my book. It’s more than just a case of “Wham-bam-thank-you-glans” way of getting off when you can’t find someone else to do the job for you. It’s a way of relieving stress and tension, a sleep aid, even a way of practicing chaos magick by using the orgasm-induced no-mind state to charge eldritch sigils according to Grant Morrison.

But beyond a convenient way of entertaining oneself when there’s nothing good on TV, masturbation is a valuable means by which to get information about what really gets you off.

One of the odd double-standards with regards is how we consider the comparative complexity of what it takes to get men and women to orgasm. Women, we are told, are akin to trying to pick a combination lock blindfolded and upside down – every woman is painfully complex and unique code of movements and pressures that you have to memorize. Meanwhile men are like McDonalds – you know exactly what it’s going to take every single time. The Big Mac is gonna be the same no matter whether you’re hitting the Golden Arches in Toledo or Tokyo. Up Up, Down Down, Left Right, Left Right B, A, MOVE YOUR HEAD!!

As fun as it is to reduce the complexity of the gendered sexual experience to a pair of stereotypes, it’s not really true. I’ve heard complaints from guys (and their significant others) who simply can’t get off without very specific routines and I’ve known women who were easier to get off than a pair of shoes.

What is true is how much masturbation affects our sexual experience in general. Women who masturbate regularly are more in tune with what actually makes them orgasm, which makes it much easier for them to orgasm during sex (please notice I very carefully said sex, not penetration… but I’ll get to that in a second.) Men on the other hand2 frequently don’t  think very much about their masturbatory technique beyond “lube or no lube” and “did I remember to lock the bathroom door this time?” This lack of introspection cuts them off from a world of information – one that would greatly benefit their partners.

There’s more to getting a woman off than being able to identify the little man in the boat; there’s variations of levels of pressure, g-spot stimulation versus clitoral stimulation, whether direct clitoral stimulation feels best or they prefer indirect stimulation closer to the internal shaft. There’s also considerably more to getting a guy of than “grabbing his cock and pulling rhythmically”. The problem is that guys often don’t know exactly what it is they prefer… because they never stop to think about it. Do you prefer a firmer grip at the base of the penis and loosen as you move up, or do you keep a relatively light grip all around? Do you require high speed, or do you use a more moderate pace? Do spend more time manipulating the glans or do you put more pressure on the underside of the shaft. Do you use any sort of prostate stimulation whether directly (a finger or a sex-toy—ONE WITH A FLARED BASE, PLEASE) or indirectly (pressing something against your perenium)?

The more you know about the specifics of what brings you to orgasm during masturbation, the better equipped you are to actually tell your partner what you want… and that conversation can mean the difference between a ho-hum night or some of the most mind blowing oral sex you’ve ever had.

But Not TOO In Touch

Speaking of masturbation: a lot of guys can actually ruin their sex lives through masturbating. The penis is sensitive and can easily be acclimatized to levels of pressure and sensation, ones that the mouth, vagina or anus simply can’t match. Some men when masturbating use what is colloquially known as “The Death Grip”, where they grab their cocks as though they were trying to literally choke a chicken. Other men discovered masturbation by humping a pillow or a towel, or even the space between the mattress and the box spring of their beds. They become accustomed to this level of pressure or those intense textures and end up unable to actually orgasm via traditional sex, much to their frustration (and the frustration of their partners). Ultimately the only way to cure this is to deprive onself of those sensations when masturbating, even if it means that you’re jerking off and simply can’t come. After enough time, sufferers from the death grip will eventually be so backed up that they will start to respond to much less intense pressure and texture out of sheer determination.

It’s worth noting however, that this is a different matter from women who can’t orgasm without intense clitoral stimulation… but we’ll discuss this in a moment.

COMMUNICATE! COMMUNICATE! COMMUNICATE!

The most important part of the body when it comes to improving your sex life is your mouth. Yes, it’s great for kissing and oral pleasure… but it’s biggest role should be in talking with your partner. While there are lovers out there who are masters at reading body language and so adept at translating gasps, sighs and moans that it seems like they know what you want even better than you do, not everybody you’re going to sleep with is going to be a Charles Sexavier.

You will now never get that mental image out of your head. You’re welcome.

This means you’re going to have to actually talk to them about sex.

A general rule of thumb is that if you’re comfortable enough to swap body fluids with someone for fifteen minutes, you should be comfortable enough to be able to tell them what you want, sexually.  This includes people you may have mentally designated as one-night stands. Just because you’re not planning to see them again (which could very well change, you know) doesn’t mean that the sex has to be awkward or uncomfortable. Being able to tell someone that you need more foreplay, that he’s not actually anywhere near your clitoris, that she needs to use way less (or way more) teeth or that you can’t come from penetration shouldn’t be something you’re afraid to tell someone you’re intimate with.

This extends to more than just the mechanics of sex, by the way. You may have the “insert tab-a into slot-b” aspects of your sex life down to a science with your partner, but if you have other needs that are being unaddressed, it can still affect your sexual satisfaction. Many people have fantasies and kinks—ones that their partners might well be willing to indulge them in – that they simply never bring up for fear of how others may react. A healthy, successful relationship means that you should be able to at least be able to discuss these topics without fear of judgement or ridicule from their partner. It may be something that your partner isn’t necessarily willing or able to fulfill but you shouldn’t feel as though you are somehow not allowed to have these interests or to talk about them.

Also: everybody needs to accept that suggestions and advice are not necessarily criticism. While there are women who have this problem as well, guys are the most prone to taking a suggestion that they could do something differently as a condemnation of their entire sexual repertoire. The suggestion that your partner would appreciate it if you spent more time on the upper left or right of the clitoral head rather than directly on it (or worse, under it) or that you need to use less pressure is not telling you that you are horrible in bed. Similarly, your boyfriend telling you that you have a tendency to rake your teeth in uncomfortable places isn’t getting the reaction that you’re expecting isn’t telling you that everything you know about sex is wrong. Everybody has different requirements and preferences; there is no universal technique that is going to please everybody, and just because your ex liked it doesn’t mean that all your future partners will too.

You Need to Unlearn

We pick up a lot of bad messages about sex from pop culture… and many of them come from porn. Now while I’ll be the first to tell you I loves me some porn, too many people look at porn sex as something to emulaterather than something to watch and jerk off to. Porn sex is not real sex, it’s performance, and it only bares the slimmest relationship to actual sex. In porn world, foreplay lasts minutes at best and usually involves playing with the nipples and vigorously fingering the vagina, maybe a little oral before slamming the cock home to earth-shaking orgasms like an industrial film directed by David Cronenberg. In the real world, not only is this not conducive to actual arousal, but it’s often painful if you’re not careful. It creates unrealistic expectations whether it’s how quickly women should expect to come (or how, or how they should signal that they’re coming) and how much endurance men should have. It puts far too much importance on penile-vaginal contact  and minimizes the value of other forms of intimate sexual contact as inferior. Some aspects of porn – deep-throating a penis during oral sex, ejaculating on a woman’s face or breasts, fisting, “double” penetration, etc have taken on fetishistic value in the “real” world—even though it can be unpleasant at best or even potentially physically harmful at the worst, especially for a couple who isn’t experienced or ready to try it.

Expecting porn star sex in any context outside of an actual porn shoot is an invitation to frustration and dissatisfaction… and possibly some medical issues as well.

You Need To Experiment

Enough repetition can make anything boring, including good old-fashioned vanilla sex. You need to be willing to vary things up… and this means more than just going from missionary to female superior on occasion. If your sex live revolves around the same time, circumstances and location – in the evening, in the bedroom with the lights dimmed—you may find yourselves becoming bored by the routine, even if the sex itself is good. Even minor variations—grabbing a quicky over the kitchen table, making out on the living room couch,  fumbling in the backseat of your car like a couple of horny teenagers—can inject some freshness and novelty into otherwise stale sex. But sometimes you need to shake things up a little more. Sometimes it’s a matter of expanding your concept of sex.

Maybe your partner read (God help ‘em…) 50 Shades of Gray and suddenly has an interest in being tied up and disciplined. Maybe a porn scene about a college professor and a horny grad student got you off more than you expected and you’re curious to see if you can recreate that excitement with your girlfriend.

Or you—or your significant other—may have other desires that aren’t being met yet but you’ve always wanted to try.

Like I said earlier, some partners have kinks and fantasies that they’ve always wanted to indulge, but may not have felt comfortable bringing up to their partners… and you should consider indulging them. While there are some kinks that are just too far for many people – usually ones involving bodily fluids—others may be a bit odd or even off-putting but are ultimately harmless. To steal a line from Dan Savage, couples should aspire to being good, giving and game—good in bed, giving to their partners and game to try things just because their partners are aroused by them. Who knows… on the one hand it may just not be your cup of tea but it gets your partner off like a rocket. On the other, you may discover an untapped well of heretofor unknown kink of your own.

Don’t Fear a Helping Hand (Or a Prop or Two)

Too many people, male and female have bought into the idea that a “look ma no hands” orgasm is somehow inherently superior to all other forms of sex; if she (or he, for that matter) can’t come through strictly vaginal sex (or blowjobs or…) then it just isn’t as good somehow.

To be perfectly blunt, this is ALL KINDS of bullshit. It’s this sort of thinking that leads people to unsatisfactory sex and feeling somehow inferior for it because they can’t get their partner to come the way the porn stars do. Statistics time! Only 25% of women are  consistently able to orgasm through strictly vaginal penetration. Almost every other woman requires direct clitoral stimulation which is almost impossible to achieve sufficiently during intercourse. However, because of the perceived desirability of the “no-hands” orgasm, women often don’t do what it takes (stimulating themselves, having their partner stimulate them) to achieve orgasm during sex… whether it’s because they feel they “should” be able to come during penetration or for fear of insulting or offending their partner.

Furthermore, some women require intense direct stimulation in a way that most humans simply can’t replicate and require outside toys like vibrators… yet some people find vibrators intimidating, even offensive. The problem are the people who see a vibrator as competition somehow—that it’s use is either a tacit admission that he simply can’t bring her to orgasm and is thus less of a man or that this mechanical device pleasures her in a way he can’t possibly keep up with. By holding onto this attitude—that “my woman shouldn’t need this if I’m around”—is counter-productive; all it ends up doing is closing a potential avenue to even better sex. The idea that a vibrator is somehow competition is silly; better to see it as it really is: a toy, a tool that he can use to make things mind-blowing.

This perceived supremacy of the “look ma no hands” orgasm affects guys too. Many guys can’t necessarily achieve orgasm through oral sex alone but feel that they should… yet resist the idea of playing with themselves or allowing their partner to use a hand as well as their mouths. Others may have a hard time coming from penetrative sex but gamely try to push their way through it (as it were) rather than using their hand (or their partner’s) to get them off; somehow not coming through penetrative sex is seen as less “manly” or less “real” .

When you open your mind (and other funbits) to expanded definitions of sex, when you quit worrying about what’s “real” or “genuine” and start to encompass outside help, suddenly the world is your oyster.

METAPHOR!

You have options and—more importantly, orgasms—that you never had before. Openness, communication, honesty and a willingness to try things you’ve never done before… these are the keys to finally having the sort of sex you’ve always really wanted.

 

Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove

 

Photo: Flickr/Por mi tripa…

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About Harris O'Malley

Harris O'Malley provides geek dating advice at his blog Paging Dr. NerdLove, as well as writing the occasional guest review for Spill.com and appearing on the podcast The League of Extremely Ordinary Gentlemen. He can be found dispensing snark and advice on Facebook and Twitter (@DrNerdLove.)

Dr. NerdLove is not really a doctor.

Comments

  1. Good, humorous read.

    I reached the end of the article and STILL found myself laughing at the death grip, choke the chicken references. Hilarious.

    I agree with many points you’ve raised here – experimentation, communication and co-sign the fact that good sex just doesn’t occur magically, at least not enough to write home about. For myself, I’ve been naturally attracted to a woman and sometimes the next was good and sometimes it wasn’t. What I’ve learned the difference to be (more times than not) is the mental stimulation we’ve experienced beforehand. And once she and I reached the level where we felt comfortable expressing our exact needs in bed, the sex became high-level explosive.

    Too bad she was married. Smh.

  2. 1 million awesome points for the Spider Jerusalem image. And for Charles Sexavier. Brilliant.
    And thanks for the mention about unrealistic expectations set by porn. I have had to re-educate a lot of my partners at the beginning of our relationship. “Actually no. You being aroused does not necessarily mean I am. And no, hitting the most sensitive of my 2000 parts like you’re drilling for oil does NOT, in fact, feel really good. It actually hurts sometimes. I’m sorry your other partners decided to fake it instead of helping you–and her–have better sex. But no worries–I’m here now!”

    • Nick, mostly says:

      You know, I’ve been thinking about this a lot and I realized there’s another possible explanation. I have met few women, let alone men, who understand female sexual arousal and physiological response. And then I remembered something from way back when…

      My first sexual partner used to complain that I would sometimes hit her cervix, which was a bit painful. (As a bit of background, I have an average length penis and I’m pretty sure I won’t be taking Ron Jeremy’s place anytime soon.) Other times, however, she would ask for harder and deeper and I would be confused. I wanted to ask if that might not hurt her cervix, but decided that question would produce a record-scratch moment and did what the lady asked instead. Same woman, same penis, and sometimes going deep caused pain and sometimes it caused a lot of pleasure.

      What neither of us understood at the time was that her sexual response was multi-facted. When she anticipated sex she would lubricate, whether she was only somewhat aroused or very aroused. We took that as a sign of readiness for sex, and because going deep provided the most intense sensations of pleasure, we sometimes made the mistake of doing so before she was ready. During heightened states of arousal, the cervix actually tips up and out of the way, while the back of the vagina expands (also called “tenting”). But if a woman doesn’t know this about herself, a guy sure as hell isn’t going to know. His past partners don’t need to have “faked it” for him to get the mistaken impression about what works.

      Porn or not, women need to take ownership of their own pleasure. They need to figure out and communicate what works for them and what doesn’t. Like it or not, sex education in the US is a joke (I hope no one reading this is planning to vote for those asshole legislators who would give our children gun lessons before sex ed lessons). Porn has no responsibility to take on an educational role simply because our schools and elected leaders have abdicated that responsibility. Given that, as fully formed adults (which I am assuming we all are here) we need to help educate each other about what works for us. No doubt there will be guys who come in with an attitude of, “but that’s always worked before…” but a counter-attitude of “I work a bit differently; here’s how you can get ME off…” will better educate him than accusations that he’s been poorly served by porn or past partners (regardless of how “true” that assessment may be).

  3. I’ve got some quips:

    1. I would’ve liked to have some examples, or more guidance, on exactly HOW to approach discussing these sensitive topics. I think most dudes love to chat after sex, get a read on how we did, etc. How we go into that discussion (looking for praise vs. real inquiry for the sake of deeper connection) will play a big factor in the quality of transparency that emerges. And giving feedback while in the act is a bit of an artform. “More like this…” vs. “Don’t do that…”. Feel me?

    2. I’m not clear on WHY porn star sex is unrealistic. I just think both partners need to:
    a. want that
    b. remain lighthearted with it
    c. and of course, as you said, communicate what works and what doesn’t

    3. Lastly, I do believe that my lover should be capable of orgasm without a vibrator. I’m not opposed to using one as a temporary crutch, or occassional booster, but I’d like the ability to have a simultaneous no-toy climax. And I think with enough patience, presence, and exploration we can get there together (I’ve never encountered a woman where this wasn’t the case anyways). It’s like your death grip example, sometimes we have to train the brain to feel more subtle layers of the experience.

    My two cents. Love your work. Keep it up bro!

    • From one woman’s perspective, the problem isn’t that porn sex is unrealistic, but that porn sets unrealistic expectations around sex.
      You can absolutely play games, have wild/hard/fun/adventurous/silly sex! Costumes, toys, positions, role-playing, whatever gets both partners going!
      Expectation 1: A man’s erect penis is enough to have a woman cat-in-heat horny. This (usually) isn’t true.
      Expectation 2: She will be so aroused, foreplay is optional. In porn, I see women get no foreplay at all, and not NEED any. (Because they’re lubed up like a stockcar’s pistons.) If they do get some attention, it’s only to their nipples and vagina. Also an oversight. Just like a man’s, much of a woman’s body is an erogenous zone. A good passionate kiss on the mouth, a nibble on the neck, a long wandering hand across the belly, are all more of a turn-on than a guy noodling for catfish in my depths or tuning in Tokyo on my tender buttons.
      And all that rough foreplay (and rough sex) can lead to unwanted physical side effects for women. UTIs, yeast infections, and BV, just to name the most common. Which means we can’t have sex as often as we may like. Or as often as our male partners think we should want to/they want to.
      Expectation 3: Every girl wants it. No one ever says No in porn. Or, if they do, they quickly change their mind. This sets up an expectation that we are here to serve mens’ needs, not equal partners with our own wax/wane cycles of sexual desire.
      That’s just my perspective. And again, I’m all for bouncy/playful/wild-animal sex.
      For discussions on how to talk about what you like, my ex and I went to Midori’s workshops. She’s great at empowering men & women to talk about sex, and to be okay with listening to our partners. If you can find her, she’s really great.

    • Booster, to answer your second point, because I don’t think most women want to have to model other women that have been pitted up against unrealistic expectations that you’ve been looking at since you were probably 12 years old. We’d like the freedeom to be ourselves. That doesn’t mean things can’t get wild. But we don’t want to have to copy your favorite porn stars just so your happy with us. That feels the like the opposite of having freedom of sexual expression. Please remember thatm ost porn is made mainly for men. It is not made for women or what women truly find pleasurable. How about encouraging your partners to act like themselves and see what comes from it instead? How about being more interested in who that woman is sexually then having her copy what you’ve seen in porn? Maybe that means she screams like a harpy and her hips can do things you’ve never seen before. Maybe that means she makes softer little moans and whimpers and is gentler. Who knows.

      What I do know is that alot of men infact don’t know how to have sex. I don’t say that to be derogatory toward men at all. But so many men seem disconnected from sex and treat it more like one big masturbation party, even when they have a partner, then what sex should really be about.

      I agree with some of Dr.Nerd’s points and some I don’t. I do agree that I think people should be able to figure out how to orgasm without toys. I am not a big fan of bringing all these outside things into the bedrom. I also disagree that good old vanilla sex has to ever be boring. if you are doing sex right, straight up sex should always be fun. That isn’t to say you shouldn’t try knew things. But if you are doing it because “vanilla” sex (which is a term I hate because all “vanilla” sex is is straight-up sex) has lost it’s interest, you need to figure out why that is.

      I do think masturbation is good. However, when most men are masturbating, they are focusing on pornogrpahy which I think is bad. If men instead took time to turn the TV off and figure out what they liked free from images porn has already precreated for them, I think men would be much better lovers. That might take some time for a man to de-porn himself. I’ve heard of more men talk about how they use to be able to use their imaginations but now they can’t.

      PLEASE guys…PLEASE trying to make sex into porn. Please get more connected with your sexuality and be encouraging of your woman’s sexuality on her own instead of encourging her to be most like your favorite young pornstar that she can’t even compete with to begin with. Stop forcing women to perform because of your porno fantasies. ANd you might not think you are forcing anyone but when guys say stuff like, “why is porn star sex unrealistic”, it’s obvious that you dont’ consider how and who porn is mostly main for and it’s obvious that you don’t really care about women expressing their own sexuality that might not be your hyper-fantasized world. Us ladies have enough pressure and I have had too many experiences with men that have totally been ruined by porn. That isn’t to say they can’t be unruined but seriously, porn is not doing you any favors. You are missing out on SO MUCH by letting porn dictate your sex life.

      • Good points. And we’re not even touching on some of the other negative side effects of porn. (1) The slippery slope of porn addiction, in which men need more and more graphic (and often dehumanizing or even violent) porn to achieve orgasm; (2) the emotional damage these breathing silicone sex-dolls due to women, as we are constantly told to BE them. You need bigger & perkier tits, fuller lips, a tight butt, a vulva as smooth as veal cutlet, and a bleached anus! Seriously?! Be skinny, be tall, be sexual, be this contrived marketing-made version of desirable. Because it’s what your man expects.
        *Note that nowhere in there did I say Be beautiful. Because beautiful is what you already are.

        • …these breathing silicone sex-dolls…

          I presume you mean the women performers? Talk about slut-shaming…

          When you listen to whatever music you like, does it make you feel like you’ll never be accepted and loved unless you have perfect pitch, a wide range, can play an instrument, and are a talented song-writer? Does it make you less accepting and loving of others who lack those talents, or have them in lesser amounts than popular musicians? Porn is sex as a performed art. It can be appreciated without dehumanizing the performers (as your sex-doll characterization did), and without expecting or demanding that everyday people and behavior resemble it. Your belief that men expect you to look and fuck like Jenna Jameson is probably about as accurate as a belief that they expect you to sing, play, and write songs like Norah Jones.

          • If I was a performer, then yes I could expect that the examples put before me are an expectation of my audience. But I am not a performer, therefore no one expects me to perform like one.
            I am a woman, and the examples put before me of other women are an expectation of what a woman is by the men who create and view those examples.
            **I wouldn’t call it slut-shaming. Women who sell their bodies to make money are prostitutes. Whether they do it on camera or not.

            • This is where the crux of the matter is. Is porn for art? For entertainment only like a tv show? or does it wind up serving as defacto sexual education and erotic literacy in a culture that damns and disallows sex ed in schools and provides most of its citizens no access to understanding pleasure, at least in ways that are open and communicated about.

              With art, I’ve had the opportunity to a) take classes, b) get a tutor, c) see live and filmed performances, meet performers etc. All in the open, all guilt and shame free and all looked at as a “high” calling. With porn and erotic performance this is not the case.

              When I sing, I am aware of all of the above context-I know I am not Norah Jones, nor am I expected to be.

              When I have sex it might be possible that I am expected to provide great pleasure to my man “just by knowing how” and he might have the same expectations of himself, but neither of us would have had the opportunities listed as above. If porn was our only go-to training, we’d have gotten some pretty inaccurate lessons.

              My point is not to use porn, but that if its’ the only passage way into sex ed and erotic literacy and if it has to be learned in the dark of secret (not to mention paying by credit card) we have problems.

          • This has got to be one of the most interesting and also hilarious points I’ve ever read.

            I think that it’s entirely possible that you are right, that there are people out there who are smart enough and differentiated enough to know that their lover will never play or sing songs like Norah Jones. And. I also think it’s possible that some people, given the lack of sex education and erotic literacy in America, will take many cues from porn (and porn is filmed to be viewed which means non realistic angles etc) and expect that things they see on film may work in real life.

            This isn’t an either or, but unless the two people participating in sex actual talk about expectations, desires etc then that’s where the trouble might start.

            As for porn being a performed art, I think it could be it if wasn’t commodified to the extent that it is. I think the business model is what has corrupted porn not porn corrupting sex. We do not honor art forms as art forms in the country if they are “low brow” so to speak, or involve the body and “base” sexual desires. Otherwise we’d see pole dancing at the Met instead of ballet and we’d see erotic films given honors at awards shows like the Oscars. Then again, business has corrupted film as well…

            Now, that doesn’t mean I don’t think pole dancing or erotic filmmaking or storytelling are art forms. I do. And ones that require skill and talent both. But culturally, socially etc sex work of any kind is not considered “art.”

            Autumn’s attitudes are a part of the problem there.

            • You’ve got an interesting point, Julie. Where do I draw the line between erotic art and exploitation? I don’t mind nude art, and I love erotic storytelling, but I don’t think porn is art. Why? Where do I draw that line? I think, in the end, it’s a personal consideration we all make. About all kinds of things in our lives.

            • So my question is, where is the line, and why. I too, would say at this point that most modern and corporate porn is industrialized and does not meet my standards of artistic expression, though I’ve seen much erotic film that does hit that quality of art. It’s independently produced, often queer or woman produced, and very niche filmmaking. There is a festival called CineKink that has amazing short erotic films.
              Cindy Gallop’s Make Love Not Porn is also an amazing example of erotic imagery created with mutuality and consensuality in mind. I think the majority of what I’ve viewed online seems like it’s been produced for mass consumption, rather than with art in mind.
              As for exploitation, that’s a part of it. I often think that the viewers are being exploited, though certainly in a different way than the performers, and that turns me off.

            • I think the line is different for everybody, and I think that’s okay. It’s part of the Art discussion. I love comics, and some of my Art friends don’t think comic book art is Art. But, I do. At least some of it.
              And yeah, you’re absolutely right. There’s a lot of amazing erotic film/theatre/literature out there that definitely qualifies, in my book, as Art. I own a bit of it. I love all of it. I was a MOSEX member in NYC. I loved going to burlesque shows or to go see independent erotic films, but I never counted those as “porn.”
              In my head, when I hear the word “porn,” I think of the stereotype. The mass consumption stuff. And that’s the “porn” I have a problem with.

            • I suppose the divisions I see with people are mainly those that see mass consumption/mass produced/industrialized porn as exploitative of both men and women, viewers and performers and those who don’t see it that way or don’t care.

              I think this is related to how we as a culture have been encouraged to see industrialized anything as good for you-it’s killed our empathy.

              At the risk of using an ironic example, the difference between mass produced food and organic and local produce. One is cheaper and easier to get certainly, but by damn there are often a lot of ethical problems with how that food is produced. From over farming, to ill treatment of animals, to antibiotics and chemicals to overproduce/keep things shelf safe, to how the human laborers are treated during the harvesting of said food…all designed to maximize getting the food out there to as many people as possible (a good goal) but also maximizing profits for the creators and distributors. By the time you eat that hamburger, you have no idea the problems it might have associated with it and you know? Most of us aren’t encouraged to know or care. Just a dumb cow. Just immigrants working on the farm. To hell with em right?

              You can purchase less meat/produce and possibly it’s less accessible but you do have the knowledge that it was ethically produced if you go farm to table.

              We have, at least with food, a problem because there are millions and millions of people in the US who have to be fed in order to live. So we have a systems problem. Trouble is, when everything is cast through a corporate and capitalist lens, then every thing is for sale, and hey, the cheaper it’s produced the better right? No, not for me, not where sex and human relationships are concerned. (or food, but you probably can tell where I stand on that).

              It’s all messed up. Our empathy is damaged, our ability to see people as people is damaged, and I think the industry responds to demand because money is what is at it’s base.

              I like feeling good about sex and I like feeling consensual about it. Thus, I don’t really enjoy imagery I’m not sure of. I know others don’t think of it that way.

            • That’s a heck of a good point, Julie. Well said. And I totally, 100% agree with you. Thanks for saying so eloquently what I was too sarcastic and glib to express properly.
              It’s Friday, so let’s all commit to better sex (and better erotic entertainment) this weekend! Ciao!

          • Marcus Williams, I find it interesting that you were ready to jump on Autumn for “slut-shaming” because of the part you quoted her saying, ”breathing silicone sex-dolls.” Are you ever worried, offended, concerned or stand-up against the slut-shaming that happens in actual porn movies? Such as the movies that call women four letter names and treats them derogatory? Do these things ever concern you like you were just concerned about Autumn’s comments that you interpreted as slut-shaming? Do you ever stand up against them like you were to Autumn?

            I always find it really weird how often men will jump up to defend porn or women in porn but you never do the same thing for real life women. Men will fight with their real life partners, lie to their real life partners to have porn in their life. They will stand up for porn and women in porn, women they don’t even know, women that don’t care about them, over their own partners. And they never care about or acknowledge all the shaming that goes on in porn that is specifically targeted against women’s sexuality, femininity and the expectations that are placed on how women should behave and look that make men the most happy.

            Secondly, women in porn are treated like breathing silicone sex-dolls. Grow up. We all know that’s true. Please stop lying to yourself that women in porn are treated anything more then that. Women are expected to look a certain way that pleases men. Women are expected to respond a certain way that pleases men. Porn is made for men by largely other men. Porn is not created about what truly pleasures women in most cases. No little girl dreams of the day a man calls her a name and smacks her around or chokes her her wants to stuff all her openings so full of different things that her body is ruined. Yes, there is porn for women but the biggest part of the industry is has I described. So next time you think your standing up for women and pointing out “slut-shaming”, how about next time you start with the porn you are defending. The porn that uses derogatory language against women, that puts women into narrowly idealized categories based on the size of their body parts or age. You want to see something that really shames women? Turn on a porn movie. I’d like to see that for a change instead of you ignoring how the industry represents women to begin with.

            But that would require men to acknowledge that women in porn are shamed because they aren’t “relationship” material. Hence why a lot of men love to say how they would never actually love those women or want to be with them. At the same time, men shame every-day-normal-not-in-porn-women because their bodies and looks aren’t really what men want when compared to the endless stream of 18-25 year olds a man can jerk off to from the time he is 12 until the day he dies. You think women don’t experience shame and messages men are sending them because men obviously don’t really want real life partners but an endless stream of 18-25 with perfect bodies who do anything for men even if these things completely destroy a woman’s bodies and don’t even feel good for a woman? Such things that Dr. Nerd mentioned like double penetration and fisting. Funny how no man cares about what that does to a woman’s body. Funny how little you guys care about all the shame women experience at the hands of porn. But boy, a woman steps in and points out a reality of how women in porn are treated like sex dolls (like that is a big surprised to anyone!) and all the sudden you care deeply about “slut-shaming”. Yeah right. What a bunch of crap.

            Marcus Williams, co you know how many men have encouraged me to dress up like, act more like, BE more like women in porn? I am not allowed to be myself. Myself is very boring to my male partners because I have never had a male partner encourage and be excited about me being myself. Most men do not know how to accept their partners unique sexuality because her unique sexuality is never going to be as exciting as the millions of different looking women you can find with a few clicks of your finger doing all kinds of insane crazy sexy acts totally made for your masculine pleasure.

            Don’t you think women want to be accepted for who they are? Don’t you think they want to be loved and valued for what their femininity offers instead of their men needing to get a “fix” of hyper-femininity somewhere else? Don’t you think women would feel more open and free with their partners if their male partners instead encouraged them to be themselves instead of men forever saying, “Hey what’s wrong with wanting my partner to be more like a pornstar?” Most women are not going to feel sexy or accepted if all their men really want is for their real life partners to copy and be more like his porn fantasies. Porn fantasies largely created and made for and by men with little thought to real women and their own sexuality. PLEASE learn to encourage your female partner to be HERSELF. She might want to do crazy things. She might not. But stop pressuring women to be more like “pornstars”. It’s so freaking messed up and disheartening. And I can’t tell you how many experiences I’ve had with men regarding this issue. Today men are really clueless about it and they don’t even understand! They don’t get it! They think they are great lovers because they ask their partner to watch a porn movie with them and then copy it. That’s not being a great lover.

            • Erin [Insert last name here], you write, “But boy, a woman steps in and points out a reality of how women in porn are treated like sex dolls…”, but look again at what Autumn wrote, which was:

              And we’re not even touching on some of the other negative side effects of porn… (2) the emotional damage these breathing silicone sex-dolls due to women, as we are constantly told to BE them [Emphasis added.]

              It’s like the difference between saying, “Women in porn are treated like sluts,” which is what you’ve said many times and in many threads, and “Women in porn are sluts”, which would be more reflective of someone’s judgment about the women themselves, and is how Autumn characterized them by calling them breathing silicone sex-dolls, and even setting them apart from women, saying they “due [sic] damage to women”. This time around, your argument is with Autumn, unless you agree that women in porn *are* breathing silicone sex-dolls, in which case I submit you degrade them more than I ever have.

            • It’s possible that Autumn might have been using language in way to say…porn casts women as “breathing silicone sex-dolls” though she may not have been. People often type quickly and some people see words more precisely than others which leads to misunderstandings and shenanigans. It might have been worth while asking her originally, otherwise we wind up language policing like this. She might also have meant what she said as she said it.

              I would say that porn casts women as “BSSD’s” though the women themselves as performers are playing that role, and are real people, but the imagery doesn’t translate into actual empathy for those women.

              Or heck, each other online in arguments.

            • Fair enough, Julie. Comments aren’t generally a zone for the most careful of writing, so I’ll cut Autumn some slack here, and assume she meant something like Erin, about women being *treated like* breathing silicone sex dolls. In that case, I object to yet another generalization about how all men see and think about women in porn, despite several men sharing themselves as examples that contradict that all-encompassing theory. If it’s ungenerous of me to think someone just left out a word to make their language more figurative, isn’t it even worse to assert that someone thinks and feels nearly the opposite of what they say they do?

            • Sure. But you know my evolving opinion on comment threads and dialogue happening online.

            • Marcus Williams, I never said, “women in porn are treated like sluts”. I don’t believe in calling women “sluts” to begin with. So I certainly don’t believe saying any woman is treated like a “slut” because I think “slut” has been used to shame women for their sexuality.

              It doesn’t feel like you’ve really read or paid attention to what I’ve said. Sometimes when men easily throw around these words about women that are derogatory or talk about really aggressive and most likely unpleasant sexual acts (hello “fisting), its like men just don’t believe women are worth anything. Maybe women are just sex toys to men after all. If we weren’t on some scale, then men wouldn’t like porn so much. Dr. Nerd Love referenced with apparent ease “double penetration” and “fisting”. These are physical acts mainly done to women in porn on a larger scale then they are done to men. I don’t really know how “double penetration” or “fisting” is suppose to feel good for a woman. Do you guys really believe that these things are really pleasurable for women? Do you guys even care anymore what is pleasurable to women? Does it make it right to have fantasizes about doing things to women that aren’t even really that physically pleasurable? Do you really think it feels good to get all our openings stuffed at the same time or have things put in our bodies that are the sizes of an orange? Dr. Nerd Love referenced then so easily, like it was no big deal that women are set-up to do these things. Not one man seemed shocked by the mention of these sexual acts. Can you understand how disturbing and scary that is as a woman that these sexual acts simply don’t appear to even phase men any more because porn has so normalized them and men have been so engrossed in the world of porn since they were young boys? Do men simply not get how disturbing it is to see how much men enjoy seeing women treated this way? It doesn’t change it just because it’s your “fantasy”. It still sucks. We get it. Women are completely worthless. We deserve to have all kinds of things stuck inside us while you call us horrible names. Even if it’s in your “fantasy”, it’s okay to treat women like this. However, even if someone fantasized about calling African American’s names and doing things to their body, someone would call them racist. But it’s okay to do these things to women because women aren’t really anything of worth to begin with. WHy else would men like to call us so many names, make our worth about our boobs or age or perform such fantastic sexual acts like “double penetration” and “fisting”. You guys sure taught us our place in the world! Not that this will actually stop men from looking at porn. Women are for using as your masturbation toys after all.

              You are so concerned with what Autumn said. So I am going to ask you again, are you ever worried, offended, concerned or stand-up against the slut-shaming that happens in actual porn movies? Such as the movies that call women four letter names (or much worse) and treats them derogatory? Do you stand up against movies that sexualize both verbal and physical abuse toward women like you’ve stood up to Autumn? Actions that have unfortunately become common place to men that they casually now reference things like “double penetration” and “fisting” like Dr.Nerd did. Do these sexual acts simply not phase men anymore because porn has normalized them so much for men? Do these things ever concern you? Do you ever stand up against porn when they use language that degrades women? Or do you only prefer to shame Autumn and point out where you think she is *wrong* while defending an industry that has a billion times over made every kind of racists, sexist, derogatory, physically and verbally abusive act and comment toward women for simply existing as women, the objects of your desire.

              Do these things ever concern you? Does it ever concern you the stereotypes that are formed about what women’s sexuality should be based on wildly accepted and enjoyed pornographic material? Or do you only care to tell Autumn that you believe she is injust and then weakly attempt to turn it around on me.

              I am seriously begging ALL men. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, take some time to really look at porn and see how it represents women and treats them. Next time you look at porn, look at it when you aren’t horny and really LOOK at what is happening. It’s not pretty and it’s not cool. And please stop asking us to be more like porn-stars and PLEASE try to enjoy us for who we are. Real women know they aren’t as fun to you. We know our bodies aren’t as great. We get that message drilled into us everyday. PLEASE try and be on our side for a change. We don’t want to have to be porn-stars for men to find us sexy! We want to be ourselves! is that terrible or something? We want our man to accept us for who we are and even LOVE us for who we are and LOVE and ENCOURAGE our sexuality. We don’t want a man who wants to encourage us to be some contrived porn fantasy that doesn’t even really care about women or their pleasure to begin with. We don’t want to be with men that like seeing women verbally and physically abused sexually whether she is a porn star or not. We want good men. Not men that want us to remain 18 forever with fake boobs. PLEASE, I am seriously begging every man out there to just TRY and understand.

              PS: Julie, good points.

            • Erin, guess what. Some people like fisting. I know this comes as a surprise, but just because you don’t, doesn’t mean others wouldn’t like certain things.

            • Julie, actually, that doesn’t come off as a surprise to me because I never said some people don’t infact like it. Some people might like double penetration too. But I hardly think it’s something most women like….. or men.

              But if other people have experience with this, they are free to chime in. My guess is that most women do not ask to be doubly penetrated or fisted. My guess is that most men do not have partners that are asking for that to happen.

            • When I ssaid, “…or men”, I meant it’s not something most men would like to have done to them yet usually men are okay with seeing women treated in ways they would never want to be treated themselves.

              Oh well. I usually like Harris O’Malley but he is just another guy that defends porn. Same old, Same old.

            • I think you’d be surprised at what happens in bedrooms. Very few people talk openly about what they experiment with. In my city alone there are several erotic shops and other groups that teach classes in all manner of things, including fisting, which if done properly can be a very mutually enjoyable (and even gentle and loving) experience for each partner. However, how fisting is shown in porn, is not what I’d call “done properly” unless the porn is lesbian porn about that very topic.

              People feel extremely fearful of sharing their actual desires in public spaces. Some people desire the most vanilla of sex, one position etc. Others have different desires but unless you poll every woman you meet in a way designed to elicit a truthful response, you aren’t going to really know. They probably won’t tell you or they’ll say, “Oh hell no!” while knowing they aren’t being honest.

              As I’ve said, my main issue (aside from the industrial model which is solely focused on making money) is that if modern porn is what is serving as erotic education, we are missing the mark in a big way. The difference between a fisting class and a fisting porn is 180 degrees. Or any porn and any class about how to do something more complicated. Porn doesn’t give instructions on safety and ethics because the producers currently think it would ruin the experience, porn is pure fantasy without all the complications.

              But because there aren’t other resources to learn about safety (the “recipe” if you will), people just think porn is telling them how easy things should be. When really, it’s not easy at all.

              Women might ask to be fisted if it looked on screen how it’s supposed to look. Or if they even knew about it and how it was supposed to look. Or if they had partners that could communicate as compassionately, playfully, and openly about sex as I wish the world could. Maybe they’d try it once and be like…eh…next! Or maybe it would be something they both liked.

              You don’t want these things in your life Erin, but you make huge leaps about the rest of the world feels, or about the limits as to why people don’t ask or talk about what they might think about.

              I

            • If I can chime in, I realize some women like extreme sex but like Erin I hate that porn has taught men (and a lot of women) that sex is supposed to be about extreme acts and if a woman (or man, for that matter) isn’t interested in doing crazy out-of-bounds stuff, he/she must be a boring uptight prude. There is a lot of contempt thrown around at “vanilla” sex including in articles I seen on GMP which are supposed to be sex positive. Sex positive has almost come to be a synonym for kinky these days. And vanilla means boring sex, which is ridiculous.

              Personally, for example, I hate anal sex and find it painful, unsexy and really disgusting, to be honest . I have been pressured in relationships to learn to like it or at least tolerate it. I believe the prevalence if anal sex in porn has taught men that it is essential or they are “missing out”. Fortunately my current boyfriend shares my dislike of the smells and mess so it has not been an issue. But I have sometimes wondered if it is even possible for me to be in a relationship these days because of how men’s sexuality has been so influenced by porn. A lot of men have gotten to a point in their sexuality where I don’t want to go anymore. And it is sad because I really love sex and I’m actually a very unihibited and sexual person. But I have no fetishes or kinks and I just want basic old sex. I don’t want to rip out my pubic hair by the roots or have my labia sliced off. I don’t want to be slapped around or called names or treated badly in bed. I don’t want to do things that are painful. This seems to be what porn has taught a lot of men that sex should be like, and it’s sad to me.

            • I believe the prevalence if anal sex in porn has taught men that it is essential or they are “missing out”.

              Maybe this is a generational thing or something, or else I’m a very unusual man, because I see this kind of claim frequently, but it’s so far from true for me. It’s plausible to me that the impact of porn on one’s expectations might be different for a man in his 20’s who grew up with easy access to a range of explicit porn, than to a middle-aged guy like me, who rarely saw anything more explicit than a Penthouse or Hustler (which never showed *any* kind of penetration in those days) until the easy access porn came along in my 20’s.

              I’ve never had anal sex as the giver or receiver for the straightforward reason that it doesn’t appeal to me. My tastes are pretty vanilla, too. Porn hasn’t taught me that anal sex is essential or that I’m missing out, and when it happens in a scene I’m watching, I either skip over it or find a new scene because it’s not my thing. If some women say men are demanding it, I have to believe that some are, but I can’t relate to it, or believe it’s as universal as the generalizations make it out to be. Just because something exists in porn doesn’t mean that everyone likes it, wants it, and feels unsatisfied without it. Also, just because something exists in porn, doesn’t mean porn invented it. There were guys (and even some women, I’m guessing) wanting anal sex long before easy Internet porn came along, so it wouldn’t surprise me if June Cleaver was privately troubled by how Ward kept wanting her to take it in the butt. More open and largely anonymous communication has revealed a range of sexual behavior and tastes that may gross people out, but it’s not like everyone was vanilla until Internet porn ruined them.

            • Nick, mostly says:

              That brings to mind this scene from Sex and the City: Charlotte and Brian
              My wife and I got a laugh out of it because one of the reasons Charlotte couldn’t do it (in a previous scene) was because she was “a Smithie.” Now whenever I ask her to do anal my wife, also a Smithie, employs this same protest. Neither of us are interested in anal, though, so that’s perhaps why it’s a big joke to us rather than a source of anxiety.

            • Julie, you are taking issue with the things I’m saying yet you agree what goes on in porn probably isn’t so great. So it’s not like you even really disagree with me. You just seem to believe that I don’t understand that some people sincerely enjoy fisting. I do understand this. But I do not care what people do in their own homes. I care about what social media is doing to drive human sexuality and how it’s impacted both men and women. You make this distinction yourself when you talk about the fisting class vs fisting porn.

              I am not surprised that some people actually do enjoy fisting. I am no so naive about what people may do in their own bedrooms like you keep insinuating. My comments have never really been about what people do in their bedrooms as they have been about the education the general public is receiving from things like porn that men mostly want to copy and take in to the bedroom. Please do not insist in suggesting that I don’t know that people do all kinds of things in the privacy of their bedrooms simply because I am vocal about how sex is displayed in porn.

              Now for some of my questions: How is fisting a mutually enjoyable and loving and gentle experience for each partner? (This is a sincere question.) Who mainly visits these classes? Couples? Men mostly? Women mostly? Gay men? Straight men? Gay women? Straight women? How much of the population do you think actually go to these classes?

              I never said that some people aren’t into these things. I stand by my point that I don’t think most women want to be fisted. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think that some people don’t enjoy it. If you believe most women and men or half of women and men do enjoy it, then write an article about it or ask women if this is a sexual act they enjoy. Ask men if this is a sexual act they enjoy as well, but giving or recieving. Lets talk about it and see where the answers really lay.

              I totally agree with you that there is a huge and important difference from doing a glass about educating about fisting and showing fisting in porn. However, I don’t deny that the ease these things are talked about is disturbing since the things we usually talk about are the things that women are expected to have done to their bodies.

              What do you really believe most men are doing? Looking at porn and then asking their partners to do these things the women in porn are expected to do? Or actually taking classes and learning about how to do these things without causing harm to their partners?

              I think we agree more then we disagree and I think you believe me to be more naive then I am. I think you’ve made huge leaps about my thoughts and beliefs to the point where you are telling me what I think and believe without even asking me if that’s really the case. You’ve attached assumptions that don’t fit in line to what I really think.

            • I am totally with you Sarah. You’ve made a point that I thought a lot of myself. When did “vanilla” sex, which to me, is simply “straight-up sex” become less then doing all this other crazy stuff? I think you made such a GREAT point about how “sex positive has almost come to be synonym for kinky these days.” People think “sex positive” is acting like porn-stars when sex positive, to me, is acting like YOU. Whether that means doing anal or not. But so many freaking men in my experience in real life with the men I’ve dated and the men on this board are always going on about how real life women should be more like porn-stars. What happened to men accepting us? Do men even really enjoy or like just a regular woman’s sexuality anymore? Or do we all have to copy porn-stars for men to think they are getting great sex?

              What is even more interesting is that when we talk about these things, when we talk about things like “fisting” and “double penetration” and ripping your pubic hair out or being slapped around and called names, I think the image that most heterosexual men and women project is one of these things happening to women, not men. I bet everyone that read Dr. Nerd Love’s article and saw the part of “fisting” and “double penetration” or anal sex automatically think about these things being performed on women. It’s not even a question about what things are being done to men .Because things aren’t done to men in the sexual world. Men do things and women are the ones that have things done to them. We are not suppose to be equal participants. We are just suppose to smile sweetly and tell a man how lovely and wonderful and manly he is while he just wants to use any open hole we offer that can make him feel good. It is upsetting to say the lease. And it’s upsetting how many men simply don’t get or want to see that. It’s upsetting to see how many men get defensive and make you feel bad like you aren’t very fun or sexual if you don’t want to have to pretend to be a porn-star that he LOVES. There is so much disconnection happening in sexuality and pornography has only made that gap bigger. Not smaller.

              It seems that female sexuality today, at least how men want to see female sexuality, is one where women are verbally and physically abused and smile and enjoy their own verbal and physical abuse. It is not one where women are suppose to really enjoy their sexuality and define it for themselves. We are suppose to act more like porn-stars because that’s what men like. And if we don’t, then we are “boring”. And somehow, if we call out how often porn portrays women as being sexually and verbally abused, then we are “shaming” men for what they like. Never mind all the shame men force on women through porn. Most men don’t even seem to care about that as long as you conform to his desire to pretend he is a close as he can get to being with a porn-star. And for most men, as close to a man gets to being with a porn-star is forcing real life everyday women to act more like porn-stars sexually than themselves.

              I’m 31 now and I miss when it was 10 years ago. Sure, there was the internet and there was porn but it is nothing like it is today. And men just seemed much nicer then. My partners seemed to really care about sex for both of us even if it wasn’t perfect. And some experience I’ve had in the last 10 year since have me really confused and upset with how men have let their sexuality get so twisted up in porn.

              I love men. But I don’t love how men have let themselves get twisted up in porn and how they’ve projected so much of that onto women. And the truth is, that it’s not going to change. Men love porn. They have a huge weaknes for it. No amount of “hey just look at porn in moderation” is going to derail the train that most men are already riding on.

            • “People think “sex positive” is acting like porn-stars when sex positive, to me, is acting like YOU. ”

              Right. And for some people that is going to look very different than it does to you. I act nothing like a porn star, believe me. But I’m exceedingly sex positive, playful, creative and interesting in the history of, cultures around, and dynamics of human sexuality.

              This that you wrote here?
              “It’s not even a question about what things are being done to men .Because things aren’t done to men in the sexual world. Men do things and women are the ones that have things done to them. We are not suppose to be equal participants. We are just suppose to smile sweetly and tell a man how lovely and wonderful and manly he is while he just wants to use any open hole we offer that can make him feel good. It is upsetting to say the lease”

              You have no idea what you are talking about, if you think that men don’t have things done to them in porn, in life, in relationships, and in the world of sex. Unless all you are focused on is a very narrow viewpoint of straight player type clubbing dudes looking only to score where no one ever discusses sex and relationships. You are leaving out lesbians, gay men, nerdy men and women, older and younger pairings, dominant women and submissive men, asexuals, bisexuals, swingers, poly people and so many more. In all my days, Erin, I just do not recognize what you are referring to, this “smile sweetly” business. Good grief, you are hanging out with the WRONG people if that is really what you are facing.

              Everything you write makes me feel really worried about you, Erin, not the men. Like, what the hell is going on in your life with relationships that this is happening because I know so very many people for whom sex and relationships…not like what you describe at all.

            • Marcus, porn exists as it is because that is largely what a majority of porn watches wanted it to be. Otherwise, it wouldn’t exist as it does. Peope wanted to see more graphic, violent and abusive sexual acts.

              I don’t think anyone is arguing that anal sex existed long before internet porn. I think what some women find troubling is the stories that are told about women through porn, their sexuality, their bodies and how much men are connecting those stories of women to what real women and femininity should be and projecting that onto women.

              It’s also not just about anal sex being shown in a movie. It’s about how women are slapped and spit on and called names. How men of all ages are probably looking at 18-25 year olds, reinforcing stereotypes of the where men, even men with odler wives, believe where the real worth of women lays. It’s about the rasicm and the sexism and the way you are allowed to treat women because they are A) women and B) it’s sex that you could never treat anyone based on their religion or ethnicity. Certainly not how you could treat a man based on his race or religion. Can you imagine any movie where African American men are called racially negative names for the enjoyment and physical pleasure of another race? Can you imagine anyone feel comfortable or saying to someone “hey it’s just fantasy” to excuse it? I can’t. Yet men like and want to see these things done to women 24/7 on the internet.

            • Wait, as a man I should feel I am missing out because I don’t get anal sex or get to slap women around? Dafuq? I watch A LOT of porn, wanna know the most common stuff? Solo masturbation and amateur couples having sex. I LOVE seeing women enjoy themselves, I love seeing couples enjoy themselves, if there is any analsex I skip it because I have no interest in it. I watch women 18-50+, variety of body types, variety of races, I do have preferences yes but it doesn’t mean I dislike everyone else. I have a major preference for paleskin redheaded women, no idea why, it’s actually the most common haircolour I have heard people hate so I’m not following the typical pornstar looks that seem to be the most popular (blonde, tanned, large bust) so what does that say? Maybe, just maybe not all men like the same thing?

              I also like fantasizing about being an action hero dating a heroine, but hell no I wouldn’t want to be one in real life. Fantasy does not represent what someone wants in reality, there may be similarities but porn is only really tapping into the emotions of lust n fantasy. I’ve had fantasies of orgies too but wouldn’t want to be in one in real life, I actually just want 1 woman to love till we die together with grandkids but if all you do is focus on what I like in porn you will wrongly assume I want something else.

              I do love seeing how wrong some people are on what they think men want. Men differ so much in their tastes, it’s impossible to know “what men want”. You can at best get an estimate of what is popular amongst men but it’s not solid evidence and there is also the issue of what the studios promote in making popular, just like with music. I can’t tell you how many amateur videos I’ve loved with real couples such as those who start their own lil website but it’s been so difficult to find because it’s not promoted yet plenty of high-budget productions are pushed forward and are easy to find yet I don’t like many of them because of how fake they are. How many men are out there wishing they saw better porn? How many men are sick of the mainstream “pop” of porn? Given how popular amateur content is I’d say quite a lot of them so how can anyone say what men want? Not all men want porn, some are against it deeply so it’s impossible to say what men want.

            • “Do men even really enjoy or like just a regular woman’s sexuality anymore?”
              I would (currently single, hence I look at porn) enjoy regular sex with hopefully oral sex (both give and receive), no anal, if she wants I’ll use toys on her but I’m not fussed, I like vaginal sex + massages/manual stimulation + oral sex. Anal sex is a no no for me, not interested, don’t want it. I have no desire to fist a woman and especially not be fisted. The limit of my kink would maybe be sex outdoors but not where people can see. Is that fine for women’s sexuality? I’ve known plenty of women into that stuff.

              ““double penetration” or anal sex automatically think about these things being performed on women.”
              Well yeah, unless you’re inserting a catheter it’s a bit hard to “double penetrate” a man unless you mean dildo in the mouth n ass. As for anal sex on a male there is a lot of stigma amongst men due to homophobia. Personally I’ve had someone insert a finger there before for a medical procedure, and no fucking way would I want someone to insert anything unless absolutely necessary, I also don’t want to put my penis in someones ass either. I MAY do it if specifically asked by my partner and may do it just to please her but I really really do not want to.

              “Because things aren’t done to men in the sexual world. Men do things and women are the ones that have things done to them. We are not suppose to be equal participants.”
              According to whom? How is a woman giving a blowing willingly having somethign done to her? A woman using a vibrator on her man (or a fleshlight), a woman massaging a man all over? Do you think intercourse is not equal participation? I am a man and I’ve had things DONE TO ME, women do things, men do things, both genders share their sexuality. I feel pity for those that see sex in such transactional actions instead of 2 or more people engaging in a fun act.

              “We are just suppose to smile sweetly and tell a man how lovely and wonderful and manly he is while he just wants to use any open hole we offer that can make him feel good. It is upsetting to say the lease. And it’s upsetting how many men simply don’t get or want to see that. It’s upsetting to see how many men get defensive and make you feel bad like you aren’t very fun or sexual if you don’t want to have to pretend to be a porn-star that he LOVES.”

              According to who???? Where do you get this utter bullshit from? You think you know men so well to say what men want? Again you drop blatant sexism, do you even realize it? You see men as just wanting to use women for sex, the poor innocent women with the big bad men taking what they want without regard for her feelings, that is a terrible view of sexuality as bad as the womanhaters I’ve known. You say it’s upsetting how many men don’t get or want to see that, did you ever think that maybe because it isn’t actually like that for most men? You are saying men are like that, I don’t hear men saying that OR acting like that. Most men I know and have known take pride in pleasuring their woman (or man), the only ones I’ve known to not care much about it are the players who sadly enough get a lot of women but they are the rare ones.

              Maybe you need to move here and meet the men here who actually give a damn about women if it’s so bad there. Hell I’ve spent time trying to undo damage a woman had from a previously abusive bf by trying to tell her how beautiful n amazing she is, to try get her to see herself positively, to see her body positively, I did stuff focusing on her pleasure because I wanted her to be able to orgasm again and enjoy her sexuality. But surely in your world I am just a guy who just wants a hole to fuck and not care anything about her right? The feeling I have inside where I want my partner to have 100% confidence, happiness, sexiness, warmth, love, care, to enjoy sex together must be all a lie right?

              “We are suppose to act more like porn-stars because that’s what men like. And if we don’t, then we are “boring”.”
              Or maybe there are plenty of women who DO want to act “like porn stars” because they simply want to. Of all the times I’ve heard women called boring in bed it was because they were starfish, had NO enthusiasm, did barely anything to have sex and often it had to do with them not having sex with their partner for months/years. What is the most common theme in porn? An enthusiastic woman, that is what is sexy. What is more sexy, a woman covering herself up because she’s insecure of her body, doesn’t let her partner see her naked and constantly talks negatively about herself or a woman who lets her partner see her naked, enthusiastically starts sex? She may have issues to deal with for her insecurity but why not work on them? Why deny her partner the pleasure of sexuality together because she thinks he may not like how she looks meanwhile he’s telling her how beautiful she is. I’ve talked to someone who flat out called herself ugly, she thought I would find her ugly meanwhile in my head I was nearly speechless at her beauty, yet after telling her heaps she still doubts her beauty. It’s bloody annoying to not be trusted especially on such an intimate topic, and she just ends up hurting herself more over insecurity and false assumptions about her partner.

              “And somehow, if we call out how often porn portrays women as being sexually and verbally abused, then we are “shaming” men for what they like.”
              No, you flat out refuse to see that your generalizations are what cause you to be told you are demonizing and shaming men’s sexuality. I don’t say that because you call out the negativity, I say it because you STATE what men think, do, act, you broadly generalize negatively about men’s sexuality like you have done so often on this page alone.

              “Never mind all the shame men force on women through porn.”
              Does that justify your generalizations or something?

              “I love men. But I don’t love how men have let themselves get twisted up in porn and how they’ve projected so much of that onto women. ”
              You love men yet you say extremely sexist statements about them? Huh? What you speak of with men being twisted up in porn is quite different to the reality, MULTIPLE commenters have called you out on gross generalizations so truly do you honestly think you have a good idea of what porn does to men? You say above about men not caring about women, men just want holes to fuck, men wanna watch women getting slapped around yet multiple men are disagreeing with you and I don’t think a single man has said on this site they like that. I question bigtime how much you know about men and how much you even know about porn because what you talk about and what I know, and what I read other men n women in saying is very different. The stuff you talk about only seems to apply to a few men and women. I’d be surprised if you can find a single man here who likes watching women get fisted, I’ve seen it once and it shocked me that the vagina could accomodate a hand but nothing was sexy about it especially as it reminded me of childbirth.

              Not all men love porn, and I seriously doubt most men think the way you assume they do. You seem to have an extremely negative view of how men think, it’s very unhealthy and the sexism you show truly bothers me A LOT. The sad thing is you have good points in that there is a lot of negativity in some areas of porn that needs to be addressed but they’re undone when you generalize so heavily as you really just come across as someone with very very sexist views and a very narrow view of porn, and male sexuality.

              “People think “sex positive” is acting like porn-stars when sex positive, to me, is acting like YOU. ”
              I think sex positive simply means not shaming the shit out of sexuality, allowing people freedom to choose what they want in their sexuality. Nothing to do with having to be a pornstar or act like one.

            • “Can you imagine any movie where African American men are called racially negative names for the enjoyment and physical pleasure of another race?”
              Please don’t try to compare dirty talk against women with racial prejudice, I’ve never known people enjoy being called racist words yet I do see women who enjoy being called a dirty lil whore n what not in the heat of the moment. I know someone that enjoys being slapped, yet slapping someone without consent is illegal and constitutes assault yet in the context of BDSM it’s ok if the person slapped wanted it. Your analogy fails to take this into account, these negative acts you see are in a consenting manner. If it’s not consenting then it’s already illegal.

              I can watch thousands of movies where women are not spat on, not slapped, where they are treated as equals. The type of porn you speak of does exist but it’s not the majority of porn, even in my random searchs for porn slapping is very rare and usually only involves a slap on the ass (of either actor or actress) and spitting is only in the most extreme videos I know of and I avoid but luckily they are quite rare compared to other stuff. The dirty degrading talk is pretty common sadly especially on titles of videos which I reallly hate to see, “Slut gets fucked” type titles. Where the hell do you go to see so much degrading content though? Most of the major production stuff tends to just be Stupid story background > touch/finger/etc > bj > oral sex on her > sex > sometimes anal > facial….it’s been a long time since I’ve seen a woman slapped around in a porn and I’ve seen just as many men cop the same in the BDSM stuff and being spat on is extremely rare compared to the rest of porn themes.

              I can play games though which I kill people, are they ok because it’s fantasy? I watch movies where people get killed, is that ok because it’s fantasy? I see people in porn having premarital sex, is that ok because it’s fantasy?

            • Julie said: “Right. And for some people that is going to look very different than it does to you.”

              Yeah, I think I was pretty clear that people all have different sexualities. That was largely my main point.

              Julie said: “In all my days, Erin, I just do not recognize what you are referring to, this “smile sweetly” business. Good grief, you are hanging out with the WRONG people if that is really what you are facing.
              Everything you write makes me feel really worried about you, Erin, not the men. Like, what the hell is going on in your life with relationships that this is happening because I know so very many people for whom sex and relationships…not like what you describe at all.”

              Julie, the comments above cause me to feel personally condescended to and undermined by you. I don’t believe you have done this on purpose but you have conveniently painted me as someone that does not have a sound valuable voice or experience when compared to you or your experiences. You argue about how we are all different yet you are close to shaming me for my experiences and have suggested that my experience are *wrong* or that I somehow have picked the *wrong* people to be with while you are obviously a far more superior person since you’ve never had these experiences.

              I don’t believe you are all that worried about me to be honest. But I do think that your “worry” of me was a very successful and unconscious way to diminish my point of view and make it appear that your point of view is from a much better or healthier place than what you believe to be my own. Ironically, you have not much addressed anything I’ve said but found it easier to diminish me instead by suggesting my experiences are wrong.

              If you were really worried about me, you would have reached out to my email, which we both know you have, and expressed your concern personally. Instead, you made *me* the topic of your posts and NOT the actual discussion.

              This was not about your worry but about belittling my viewpoint and making it seem that I am somehow “unhealthy” compared to what you probably consider yourself, healthy.

            • I’ve reached out to you before Erin. Nothing has changed. I am worried about you, whoever you are, because you seem like you are in pain. You can choose to believe it or not, and frankly, you could email me yourself if you wanted to dialogue as well. This works both ways.

              I’m not condescending to you. If I was, it would have been mean and insulting, all of which wouldn’t be a kind thing to do to someone who is clearly struggling with something. Or I would have responded only to Archy or someone else. I don’t take up time, which I find valuable, to just condescend to people. If I’m responding to you? It means I find you valuable. But do you confound me? Yes you do. I do not get what’s going on. Not at all. NOt the repetition, not the discounting of other opinions, not the refusal to discuss other points, not the complete focus on generalizing men and porn to the point that when I read your posts…I have no idea who you are talking about.

              You seem, to me, to be prepared to always make it about the negative. And that’s fine. You haven’t ever once looked at my posts and said, you know what? This point here? Let’s go ahead and discuss it.

              I’ve addressed plenty about porn in my posts, from the corporate influence to the industrialization of it, to the comparison to unhealthy education and food to saying to you directly, “Yes, I get what you are upset about…AND” I’ve offered other thoughts, other opinions, other options which you’ve soundly rejected.

              You want to discuss offline, I’d be more than happy to. I don’t think you do though. By the way, do I think I’m 100% healthy? Hell, no as I was raised in the repressive US.

            • Do you ever stop to think that maybe people are encouraging you to date other people or find new types of men because you make it so clear that those ones currently in your life are hurting you? Should I have encouraged you to keep dating porn users who make you feel bad? If I know there are men out there who might not make you feel bad, shouldn’t I point out that they exist?

              Your viewpoint, that you don’t like porn, is as I’ve said many times, valid.
              Your viewpoint, that the men in your life who are harming you, aren’t good for you, is valid.
              Your viewpoint, that porn shoudln’t be used as a template for all sex, is valid.

              No where have I ever disagreed with that.But I’ve also noted that you seem unhappy, perturbed, sad, and willing to write long and angry posts about men who have hurt you and how porn hurts you. So thus, I’d hope you’d find ways to a place of more happiness, more health, and people who help bring that out in you.

              What you refuse to do is the cede any ground with me or Archy or others who offer even minor variations of opinion about how sex might be, could be, how porn and men aren’t always = evil, and thus…well…I don’t get it.

              Is there anything Archy has said that’s reached you and you’ve thought, Ok, I see this nice man saying things that I agree with in part or in whole? Or me? Or anyone?

              Here’s something I promise you though Erin, I will refrain from responding to you because it’s clear it’s not helpful to you. Or wanted. That’s honest and me backing away out of respect for your position and feelings but I still don’t understand.

            • Julie, I also wanted to add that you were specific to only talk about women that would want fisting done to them. Perhaps there are men that want fisting done to them. Straight men. Perhaps men need to see and talk about men who enjoy fisting to see if they like it or not..and perhaps they don’t. I don’t know. YOu didn’t really say anything about men so maybe you believe that fisting is something only women should have done to them? I don’t know. I do know that it seems a lot of sexual acts are created in porn to be done and performed on women. But not really made to bring pleasure so much as just so more crazy things that can be done to the female body.

              I think I stand by my assertion that *most* people, male or female, probably don’t want to be fisted. That doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there that might.

            • Erin, I was responding to your post about women and fisting so I reference women and fisting. There are many men, gay and straight, that enjoy a wide variety of sexual experiences and yes, fisting is something that happens in male sexuality. And yes, straight men that I have known, personally, have been fisted. Because they were curious about it.

              I’m really astounding by your posts.

              It’s as if you have no interest in looking at the history of sex, because all the acts that occur in porn have been part of human sexual repertoire since forever. Bondage, S/M, anal, oral, costumes, violence and gentleness, shaving, bleaching, waxing, merkins, strap ons, dildos…those all have been part of sexual history throughout time**. It’s also as if you are determined to cast men in the worst possible light (and women in the most boring light or else somehow you see us sex positive folks as horrible, when we are just pretty normal), ignoring all my other points about context of sexual education and erotic literacy in the US and porn as industrial money maker.

              **by the way, this is the first time in history where all those things listed and done on film are at least regulated for safety to some extent! There were FAR worse conditions for people sexually 1950’s and back, given LGBT issues, women’s rights and well, anyone poor being potentially a servant or slave. So really, modern sexuality in the US, commodified as it is, at least affords people the ability to say no in some circumstances.

              This is why I’ve said you seem obsessive about the topic.

              So, think about something like rock climbing. You and your partner want to start rock climbing yes? And in order to do so there would be conversations, negotiations, decisions about investment into equipment. You’d take classes to learn how to climb, rappel, belay etc. You’d get certified and then start off small. You’d have adventures and likely a small fight or two as those things happen. If you both loved the experience, you’d practice and get better and better and have more and more adventures. Even so, you’d probably also just keep hiking or walking together. If you didn’t like the experience, you might decide on cooking classes.

              So to with sex, only we don’t live in a culture that is comfortable enough to have couples grow up learning the vanilla basics (hiking) and then be able to have conversations, negotiations, decisions about investment into equipment, classes, books, films to help you do the newer possibly more complicated things with safety. Well, there are all those things actually-loads of big and medium sized cities have classes and books on all kinds of things, as well as community groups focused on sex where people learn new things. And no, this feminist can tell you that it isn’t all about men degrading women. Finally, if a couple likes what they learn, they incorporate it into a repertoire while still usually enjoying vanilla sex. If they don’t like what they learn, they do something else but they have to be able to actual talk about it without freaking the hell out on each other and shaming their partners.

              Many people though, growing up, see none of those books or classes, just porn (you are right about that) and because of that one influence people can make really bad mistakes about how to go about discussing, negotiating, and playfully bringing new things into their love life.

              All I’m hearing from you is a complete denial that sex (wild, weird, wooly sex) can be mutually awesome and consensual AND not be vanilla.

              I imagine you dating someone your age, around 30 and maybe that fellow is as sweet and playful and creative as can be, but he grew up in a time and place (culture/religion/parents) where he learned very little about sex or how to talk about it. He’s clumsy in how he wants to discuss it perhaps. Embarrassed and shy and kind of in a little shame loop about it. Maybe he’s seen porn and thinks there are some things he’d love to try with you, his new lover. Maybe he even wants YOU to do things to him.

              So he asks for those things clumsily, maybe by bringing a porn tape home (cause that seems like the path of least resistance) and hoping you all will be like,”Wow that looks fun!” and then you’ll go about creating some fantasy with each other.

              But what I get from your posts is that you’d castigate him to the point of him never being safe enough to negotiate anything playful, anything new or adventurous, and maybe he’ll go through life feeling just as degraded and bad as you do, only you’ve missed an amazing change to really talk about it and open both of you up to things.

              Or maybe he’d just be a jerk like you assume all or most men are.

              You, Erin, do not have to do a damn thing you don’t want to do. And you have every right to seek a partner who is as vanilla as you and have discussions with him about the sex you both want. But there are indeed other people in the world who don’t see sex as a black/white good/bad kind of deal, but as creative of a world as say…food. And there are very healthy happy playful kind ethical people enjoying that world.

              You want to respond, respond to me about all that, don’t just repeat the same things you say all the time. Cause I get you and agree with you about porn as a poor education system and I get and agree with you about porn being industrialized and exploitative. Let’s actually talk about something new.

            • Julie, I think the issue is that some men are not trying to negotiate anything, they just want what they want. Which is fine but what I want is fine too. I don’t want anal sex, for example. That is NOT negotiable. I’ve tried it, don’t like it and won’t do it. But where did we get to the point where wanting to do wild & wooly stuff is great and wonderful but NOT wanting to do it means you are uptight and miserable (as you’ve painted Erin?) I would never degrade a guy for asking for anal sex but I’m still going to say no. It’s not a deal point that we are going to discuss. And personally I would not be terribly thrilled if a guy wanted me to watch porn to get ideas. I’d find that pretty degrading probably. Like, does he want me to be a porn star? Is that what gets him off? I can’t possibly live up to that and don’t want to try. But that’s just me I guess.

            • Then don’t date these men. There are men out there that aren’t acting that way is my point. I don’t know if Erin is miserable, but her posts sound like it. I don’t hear much ever from her about what’s good about sex, what’s great about relationships, what’s awesome about, I don’t know, her own activism or something. It’s just “men are horrid and make women do horrible things” and frankly, that just sounds passive and victimy. Don’t date those men. Find other ones. I know plenty of men who may watch or have watched porn? But don’t live there, don’t treat women as has been described etc.

              Don’t date these men.

            • And I did say, have the sex you want to have and nothing is wrong with that. Just don’t accuse women who have other desires of being brainwashed or forced or faking it to make men happy.

            • Also, if a guy wanted to watch porn…you list a huge amount of questions and then assumptions. What about actually have a dialogue, like intimate people would have, about those questions and your feelings, his reasons, places where you agree and disagree? This is what I don’t get. The reactivity is so high and so intense. Like you’d immediately assume he is a horrible person and nothing he could say could get you into dialogue about any of it, culture, history, personal stories… I dont’ get it.

            • “All I’m hearing from you is a complete denial that sex (wild, weird, wooly sex) can be mutually awesome and consensual AND not be vanilla.”
              Indeed, and I doubt she means to sound that way but that’s how it’s coming across. It really sounds like she’s saying men are big bad monsters who do all this bad shit to women and women are innocent lil flowers being taken advantage of, forced to do this n that.

              “But what I get from your posts is that you’d castigate him to the point of him never being safe enough to negotiate anything playful, anything new or adventurous, and maybe he’ll go through life feeling just as degraded and bad as you do, only you’ve missed an amazing change to really talk about it and open both of you up to things.

              Or maybe he’d just be a jerk like you assume all or most men are.”

              Amen, that castigating will shut him up very quick about what he wants and is what is called demonizing/shaming his sexuality. Why would anyone want to open up to someone who will see something as negative n degrading, see evil where it isn’t in someone who probably has quite positive thoughts about sexuality. Some people have argued that a woman giving a man a bj is degrading to her, others argue it’s a fun pleasurable act for both of them and is a loving thing to do. The same act can be seen as negative or positive yet some seem convinced most men want it in a negative manner. I just don’t get how or why there seems to be so much mistrust of men regarding sex when most are saying they just want FUN sex and want their partner to enjoy sex too. Hell if men were so selfish there’d be barely any men worried about making his partner orgasm yet I worry about it, as I’m sure many do. Am I unique? I doubt it, I’d bet most men would feel like shit if they couldn’t turn on their partner.

            • “But where did we get to the point where wanting to do wild & wooly stuff is great and wonderful but NOT wanting to do it means you are uptight and miserable (as you’ve painted Erin?) I would never degrade a guy for asking for anal sex but I’m still going to say no.”
              Have you read all of Erin’s comments? Julie isn’t painting her as uptight because she doesn’t wanna do wild n wooly stuff.

              Not wanting to wild n woooly stuff is normal, hell I don’t wanna have anal sex, I am only interested in intercourse, oral and manual/handjob sex and maybe some toys (vibrators, fleshlights, etc). Is that wild n wooly?

              “I’d find that pretty degrading probably. Like, does he want me to be a porn star? Is that what gets him off? I can’t possibly live up to that and don’t want to try. But that’s just me I guess.”
              Degrading why though? I may show a partner porn and ask if we could try a position but there’s nothing to live up to, I’m not dating the pornstar. Pornstars have sex, does that mean a man wanting you to have sex with him really desires a pornstar? Similarities exist but doesn’t mean he wants you to be a pornstar, it could just be he wants you to try something he saw with him and NOT be a pornstar. Just because a porn star does something doesn’t mean it makes you a pornstar if you do it, nor does it mean he wants you to be one. I can’t help but feel women thinking this way are doing a form of slutshaming, they don’t wanna be anything like a pornstar and think being a pornstar is degrading….

              I’d say men, and women, just want their partners to be OPEN to trying new things, you don’t have to do it but try a new position if you can, try wear a costume if it spices things up. It’s completely up to the couple!

            • “Not one man seemed shocked by the mention of these sexual acts. Can you understand how disturbing and scary that is as a woman that these sexual acts simply don’t appear to even phase men any more because porn has so normalized them and men have been so engrossed in the world of porn since they were young boys?”

              I’m not shocked by the mention of them nor am I shocked by the mention of war, I am shocked by the act. Quite frankly I have no idea why people do it or how it’s even pleasurable, I wouldn’t want to try it. But I can’t judge those who do it, which is what happens when you feel shocked by it and then go on to say stuff like this….

              “Do you really think it feels good to get all our openings stuffed at the same time or have things put in our bodies that are the sizes of an orange?”

              You can’t speak for all women, YOU may not like it just like I don’t like anal sex but there are plenty of men n women who apparently do. I see people in videos who get turned on by being whipped, but if someone whipped me they’d cop a hit to the head. But I can’t judge them, it’s their sexuality and they have a right to do whatever they want. I can be shocked by the act but I’m not shocked others like it and wanna keep doing it.

              “Do men simply not get how disturbing it is to see how much men enjoy seeing women treated this way?”
              Which men? I don’t enjoy it so quit speaking as if you know what ALL men enjoy. Would you like me to say “Do women understand how disturbing it is for women to enjoy seeing men’s penii being cut off?” because some women do enjoy it? Think of how you speak because it’s extremely insulting.

              “It doesn’t change it just because it’s your “fantasy”. It still sucks. We get it. Women are completely worthless. We deserve to have all kinds of things stuck inside us while you call us horrible names. Even if it’s in your “fantasy”, it’s okay to treat women like this.”
              Women are completely worthless? Bullshit, fantasizing about that doesn’t reduce a woman’s worth, why would it? Fantasizing about people engaging in CONSENTING BDSM? Do you know grasp the fact that for some they’re fantasizing about the dirty talk BEING ENJOYED? Not all of them are the misogynistic assholes you seem to be speaking about. The guy enjoying seeing a woman be slapped on the ass may do so because he hates women (which I think is terrible), or because he knows she is enjoying it (which is fine, not my thing but who am I to judge?). I have a friend who enjoys pain during sex, personally I don’t want pain nor do I wanna inflict it but she does. I don’t assume her partners hate her because they wanna inflict pain on her, they seem to want to do it in a controlled manner for pleasure and not for cruelty.

              “WHy else would men like to call us so many names, make our worth about our boobs or age or perform such fantastic sexual acts like “double penetration” and “fisting”. You guys sure taught us our place in the world! Not that this will actually stop men from looking at porn. Women are for using as your masturbation toys after all.”
              Some are assholes, some enjoy BDSM, some HATE IT (like me). Don’t blame guys for what you think they taught you, you are viewing porn in an extremely negative manner and quite frankly I think you’re seeing it with major confirmation bias. You assume men are being taught such degrading things yet only some men seem to be taught that, yet others get positive things from porn. What did I learn from porn? That sex can be fun, that seeing sex can be fun, that there are wide variety of tastes people have. I learned what I find fun, I learned how to go down on a woman, I learned a few techniques on how to have sex, I discovered some women ejaculate. I don’t take it as gospel but it is a guide that has helped me along with other methods of learning.

              I still love, respect n care about women a lot though, yet apparently I was meant to learn some very negative aspects and hold a view of women being sex objects? Pahleeeez, the only one in the porn threads on the GMP I’ve seen so far talking about women as sex objects is pretty much YOU, the way you talk about women in porn has got to be some of the most degrading shit I’ve ever read written about women. The extremely insulting aspect of you speaking as if no woman would want to be double penetrated denies the women that enjoy it their agency in choosing to do so, who are you to say women are degraded so much by what happens in porn? Will you tell Jenna Jameson how degrading the acts she performs are to women? They may be degrading to you but do you really have the right to say they are degrading to women as a whole?

              “I am seriously begging ALL men. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, take some time to really look at porn and see how it represents women and treats them. Next time you look at porn, look at it when you aren’t horny and really LOOK at what is happening. It’s not pretty and it’s not cool. And please stop asking us to be more like porn-stars and PLEASE try to enjoy us for who we are.”

              OK, I did it, I saw a woman masturbating and she orgasmed. She is smiling a lot, no one called her names. What isn’t pretty here? A woman masturbating and orgasming isn’t pretty? It isn’t cool? Ladies you better stop masturbating then because it must be degrading to women! Hmm let’s try another video, oh what’s that? This couple having sex and both of them enjoy it? Awww he called her beautiful, oh now she’s telling him how good it feels. Wait for it, they both have orgasmed and now they’re cuddling n kissing. You’re right, this is ugly human behaviour, how dare they film such a degrading act where they kiss each other, have consenting sex and speak positively to each other, how dare they show intimacy of such a degrading nature. I am disgusting, I am offended to see a couple in love have sex. It must be stopped!

            • “I always find it really weird how often men will jump up to defend porn or women in porn but you never do the same thing for real life women.”
              You know Marcus personally? You honestly think that he and other men don’t defend women in real life? I can’t speak for Marcus but I am someone who defends SOMEPARTS of porn and I defend women in real life. I have told people to stop slutshaming, I’ve cracked the shits at people who talk negative about pole dancers, strippers, porn stars, nurses, all kinds of women. I find it strange how you will say men defend porn but “you never do the same for real life women”.

              “Secondly, women in porn are treated like breathing silicone sex-dolls. Grow up. We all know that’s true.”
              No, we don’t all know that’s true. I know that for some porn productions women are treated as you say, but others women are treated as women. Do the countless solo female websites where a woman makes her own videos, controls the whole editing process, etc treat herself like a breathing silicone sex-doll? (Many of these women have no implants)

              “No little girl dreams of the day a man calls her a name and smacks her around or chokes her her wants to stuff all her openings so full of different things that her body is ruined.”
              You’re talking about one part of porn. No little girl dreams of being a cashier either but many do it, how many little girls grow up dreaming of working? Dreaming of slaving away a 40 hour work week? There are plenty of happy women in porn, hell a recent survey showed the ones surveyed were just as happy as non-porn actresses. Porn isn’t all about choking women n degrading them, infact the largest production of porn is via SEXTING and much of that would be produced in actual loving relationships. Porn is more than the industry you talk about.

              “But that would require men to acknowledge that women in porn are shamed because they aren’t “relationship” material. Hence why a lot of men love to say how they would never actually love those women or want to be with them. At the same time, men shame every-day-normal-not-in-porn-women because their bodies and looks aren’t really what men want when compared to the endless stream of 18-25 year olds a man can jerk off to from the time he is 12 until the day he dies.”
              Generalizations galore, how’d this pass moderation? SOME MEN DO THIS, SOME MEN DON’T. There is an article on here about the demonization of male sexuality and your comment is exactly the kind of demonization that goes on. These gross generalizations about “men shaming women” use the broadest brushes possible and quite frankly it’s insulting. I seriously question whether you know any men or if you simply have the world’s shittest luck with men by the way you speak about men, quite frankly it’s extremely misandrist. You speak of men as if they jerk off from 12 years old onwards only looking at some women who happen to be very beautiful but watch porn that involves women being called names, slapped n choked.

              Many porn stars have partners, there are plenty of men who will date porn stars. There is a lot of shaming that goes on yes but don’t act like all men do it.

              “Funny how little you guys care about all the shame women experience at the hands of porn. But boy, a woman steps in and points out a reality of how women in porn are treated like sex dolls (like that is a big surprised to anyone!) and all the sudden you care deeply about “slut-shaming”. Yeah right. What a bunch of crap.”

              “You guys”. Funny how “you girls” know so little about porn, know so little about what porn we all watch, say utterly sexist n disgusting things whilst complaining about the lack of respect women get. You want respect? Show some and quit saying absolutely wrong statements like us guys only caring about porn stars whilst not caring about women in real life. It’s wrong, it’s easily proven wrong, it’s a generalization and it’s extremely sexist.

              Do you even realize how sexist you are being? You’re stating this shit as fact, not asking if it’s true, not saying this is how you feel, but stating it as the truth when it’s wrong. Stop telling us what men think, stop your womansplaining, stop assuming to know you know men, you are not a man, you were not born, raised, lived as a man, so stop stating what men think, do, act. No man is the same, we are not clones who all like the same shit, there are plenty of men that HATE porn. It’s extremely insulting and misandrist especially as I am a porn viewer who IS a male, who KNOWS what one man thinks, who knows how one man acts because I am that man, and it’s nothing like what you say. Men deserve far more than this demonization you give them, I know you have valid criticisms of porn and SOME male’s sexuality but focus on them instead of lumping us all together.

        • “I am a woman, and the examples put before me of other women are an expectation of what a woman is by the men who create and view those examples.”
          No, they are a POTENTIAL expectation. Good god how hard is it for people to understand fantasy and reality can be wildly different? That what a man looks at in porn may not be anything he wants in reality? The examples you see in porn are what SOME men enjoy, not all men like the same videos nor do they all expect women to be like that. So how can you view it as an expectation of what a woman is?

          “Good points. And we’re not even touching on some of the other negative side effects of porn. (1) The slippery slope of porn addiction, in which men need more and more graphic (and often dehumanizing or even violent) porn to achieve orgasm; (2) the emotional damage these breathing silicone sex-dolls due to women, as we are constantly told to BE them. You need bigger & perkier tits, fuller lips, a tight butt, a vulva as smooth as veal cutlet, and a bleached anus! Seriously?! Be skinny, be tall, be sexual, be this contrived marketing-made version of desirable. ”
          SOME MEN, more generalizations? Not all men or women get porn addiction. I’ve watched the same level of porn for a decade +, it doesn’t get “harder”, I don’t expect fuller lips, this or that. I don’t even look at porn with fake tits, etc in it.

          “Because it’s what your man expects.”
          Ok all women listen up. NOT ALL MEN EXPECT OR DESIRE THE SAME THING. The women i am attracted to turn my male friend off. You will never ever be universally desired because it’s impossible. All humans desire different things.

    • i think porn star sex is fine if both want it, but often women don’t want it. They may just pretend to go along with it. I’ve watched some porn, mostly put of curiosity, and like a lot of women, I find most of the sex portrayed in porn looks uncomfortable if not painful. I like vigorous sex but a lot of porn goes way past that. That said, some women love that kind of sex I suppose. YMMV

      • What type of sex exactly? Porn star sex is like saying human sex, it varies so much. I’ve seen everything from degrading filthy sex in porn to warm n sweet loving sex so which is it that is bad? There is sex that I want which does happen to be in porn but that doesn’t mean I want a pornstar in the bedroom, I want a woman who WANTS to have sex with me in the bedroom. The women pretending to go along with it are doing themselves a huge disservice…This is the kinda culture we get when sex is so taboo that we can’t even talk about it properly, where couples still exist that don’t have a clue what the other likes….

    • Some women cannot orgasm through vaginal intercourse. They just can’t. The clitoral nerves are complex and while 30% of women may find themselves the lucky few who can orgasm through penetrative friction alone, the rest do not. If you want that joint O while thrusting, a bullet vibe will come in handy for her.
      Also, if you are using the vibe, it is you and her having the orgasm, not like it’s fake. For those women who cannot and have not had orgasms without vibrators, it’s not a “fault” of her or the man, it’s just how her body works. I’ve met men that have particular requirements and you know what, that’s fine if we can communicate about it and enjoy our sex life together. Why put that pressure on your partner? Go with what works.

      • FlyingKal says:

        And if the woman is uncomfortable with bringing toys into the “action”, with a little fantasy it’s usually no problems to try out a method were you can stimulate her with your fingers simultaneously to the “thrusting”, should you both so desire… ;-)

      • Hopefully those women wouldn’t mind a bit of visual stimulation added too for the men, a bit of porn to go with their vibrators. :P

  4. One more… love the “Chairleg of Truth!”
    Awesome.

    • FlyingKal says:

      Yes… Because every men obviously deserve a solid beating with a blunt object every now and then, their being rude or just clueless, just for no particular reason, right…?

      • Hey FlyingKal, apparently women deserve to be fisted and doubly penetrated and verbally abused for men’s pleasure. And hey, these things are okay to do because it’s “fantasy”. So sure, why not. Is it wrong to fantasize about being a man with a blunt object for being rude? Can’t be any more wrong that imaginging choking a woman with your penis, slapping her around, spitting on her or fisting or doubly penetrating her right?

        • FlyingKal says:

          Hey Erin, I can’t see anywhere in the article that the author is fantasizing about this, or suggesting that it’s something anyone ought to do against their partner’s will.
          So, what were you saying…?

    • FlyingKal says:

      And it makes the guy sound just so much more compassionate when the subject of the imaginary beating is his ex’s new boyfriend. Ha!

  5. wellokaythen says:

    Communication, moderation in porn use, variety in masturbation, and experimentation. Know what you want and know how to request it. Sounds like pretty decent advice on the whole.

  6. FlyingKal says:

    “Well, have you talked about it?”
    “No… Because every time I tried to bring up the subject, in whatever mood, circumstance or environment, my then-GF would respond with a dismissive “It’s nothing to talk about! Women just don’t have the same sex drive that men has. It’s biological!” “

  7. FlyingKal says:

    Otherwise, pretty good advice I guess. Most of it seem pretty obvious to me. But you still need a partner who is *open* to communication, and variation.

  8. Just a comment noting that “Dr. Nerdlove” is no longer worthy of comment.

  9. FlyingKal says:

    Unfortunately, this attitude—that if you’re really compatible, the sex should be completely unplanned, undiscussed and magic all by itself—is absurdly common. Somewhere along the lines, the idea developed that if you have to actually think about and talk about sex, you’re doing it wrong, and it causes no end of stress to otherwise happy relationships. This is one of the most asinine memes I have ever run across and not a day goes by that I wish I couldn’t kill it with fire.

    It’s just that in my environment it seems plainly obvious that this attitude (no need for, or even interest in discussing it) is far more common among women than it is among men.
    So what are we gonna do about it? Do you recommend beating them up too with a chair leg?

    • It was a metaphorical beating, not serious…Like slapping someone with the truth. It’s a violent choice of words but doesn’t mean someone actually being beaten….

  10. Sorry Julie, but when someone tells another person they are “worried about them”, for sharing their own opinions and experiences with honesty and depth, that’s condescending. Except for the wayward email once or twice about how you agree with what I say but you won’t respond to the comments anymore about porn, I have no clue why you believe or how you believe you’ve “reached out to me”. The last email exchange we had I sent you a response and you said nothing in return.

    I am your equal. I am not someone you need to continue to act like is less than you simply because you do not agree with my opinion. I could email you but why would I? I don’t believe I need to be *fixed* like you seem to. I respect and value my own opinions and find them intelligent and thoughtful. I am not looking to become you or adopt your view points.

    I did respond to your last post but GMP did not post it. I addressed my own experiences with your scene about a man awkwardly bringing home a porn video. I was given this advice regularly when I was younger.

    You are not the only one that is “confounded”. You do not know me personally. You do not know my relationships or life. You do not even know my emotional state except what you think it is based on what you have interpreted is behind my words.

    “I have no idea who you are talking about.”

    That makes two of us.

    I ask that you kindly leave off mention about how “worried about me”. I am an intelligent, thoughtful person. I have issues like everyone else. I am no different from anyone else here and I don’t appreciate you targeting me as if I was somehow less than the rest of you. If you can not do that, then it’s best you don’t respond to me at all anymore.

    • I don’t believe you need to fix any thing Erin and any belief you have that I’m targeting you is off base as I argue with a lot of people on GMP, but no matter. If you feel targeted I send apologies to you.

      At this point, our conversations to each other are causing more harm than good. I’ve already stated emphatically that your points and feelings are valid, so there is nothing more I can do to convince you. You do and feel and believe what you need to do and feel and believe and that is what is good for you, then that is what is good for you.

      I have no reason to interfere with your experience, so I will not. Peace, Erin and I hope you find the people and things in your life that bring you healing and wellness. I won’t be commenting to you or responding to you so there you have it.

    • “I am no different from anyone else here and I don’t appreciate you targeting me as if I was somehow less than the rest of you.”
      No one is saying you are somehow less, but you are acting different from the rest of people here. You are going off into rants about porn which drip with extremely sexist generalizations, yet pretty much no one else appears to be doing that. People have told you about this but you seem to be ignoring their messages and continuing on these rants. I AM WORRIED ABOUT YOU, you do not act like others here, it makes me worried about how much pain you are in because you communicate a huge amount of pain in your comments. When someone says they are worried about you for expressing extremely sexist views, that is not condescending, it’s NORMAL. Do you even understand how you come across to others? Do you understand your comments sound like a very hurt person who hates men as a group in how they act? That the way you sound often is men are the devil, women are innocent but abused angels? No one is bothered by you expressing your opinion but the way you sound in your opinion sounds very sexist, which I have a problem with, and others too I have seen. Drop the generalizations n sexism and it’s all good….

      • Archy, you were advised awhile ago to cool your discussions with me. I have largely upheld my end of the bargin. Despite alot of negative and offensive comments you’ve made specific to me, I have remaind slient. You have gotten away with a lot in how you’ve talked to me. It has not gone unnoticed by the people on this board. So before you begin to create the illusion that it’s you and the board against me, I would be careful about paying more attention to how you yourself are preceived. I have let you have your say and have not gotten into a debate with you regarding your opinions even when you have been very rude and degrading in your responses to me. You’ve been advised against this kind of discussion before.

        You KNOW that discussions between us do not go well. We are two very different people and see the world very differently. You make large persumptions of me and feel free to articulate these every time you are given the chance. It’s not right. Please spend more time worrying about how you respresent yourself and less time about me. I do not respect your opinions of me. Your opinions of me are false and misrepesentive of who I am. This converation between Julie and I has no need for your comments. You have not helped in any kind of way that would be considered valuable. Julie does not view me as you do. The conversatoin between Julie and I is between Julie and I and there is nothing you could possibly add here.

        Do you understand how *you* come across to others? I would worry more about yourself.

        You are free to talk about porn all you want. As I am. You are not free to talk to me the way you do.

        Please remember the message you received from GMP regarding discussions with me. I have largely upheld my end. You have not. As you can see you make tons of responses to me that I largely let go. These conversatiosn between us do not go well. When will you begin to uphold your end of the bargin and use the self control I use to largely not respond to you? You reported me to GMP and complained about my comments. Do I now have to do the same with you?

        Please pay more attention to yourself and less to me. Further comments of a personal nature not having to do with the discussion will be reported. Just as you one did to me.

  11. Great article. I’d also like to offer Dork Daddy’s opinion here. He urges us to keep our cool: http://goodmenproject.com/marriage-2/its-just-sex-dammit/

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