The struggles of modern dating etiquette.
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In these times of gender equality, social media, and apps that allow you to select or reject a person with the swipe of a finger, the lines of acceptable dating etiquette have been significantly blurred. Courtship seems to be a thing of the past, and chivalry appears to be disappearing right along with it. Some insist chivalry is dead while others happily share that is alive and well. As a single woman navigating the ever-changing “rules” on dating, my curiosity provoked me to dig a little deeper.
It seemed the majority of the people saying chivalry is alive and well, were married and over 40.
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I took an informal poll among my friends on Facebook. I welcomed feedback from everyone regardless of gender, age or relationship status. While this was by no means a scientific case study, the responses were as interesting as they were varied. Examples of gestures were opening doors, pulling out chairs, helping carry heavy items, speaking with courtesy and respect, paying for dates and so on. It seemed the majority of the people saying chivalry is alive and well, were married and over 40. While some younger people, both married and single, said they still experience it, the number was much smaller.
Aside from age, a common thread of chivalrous men was where they were from–the South producing more “gentlemen.” That brings us to the question of why? Has society changed so much that manners are lost on the younger generation? Has the push for women’s equality brought this on as an unintentional side effect? In some cases, it is a welcomed result. Women who label themselves as feminist seemed to be offended by the display of courtesy by a gentleman. If no one can agree on what is expected or even acceptable, it’s no wonder there is so much tension in relationships.
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Allow me to share my perspective. I am a single woman, gainfully employed, and I own my home. I do not “need” a man to take care of me. That does not, however, mean that I do not appreciate being treated like a lady and made to feel special. I honestly can’t wrap my head around any woman being offended by a man who wants to genuinely display manners and courtesy. I have learned not to expect acts of kindness or chivalry, but believe me . . . I do notice, and I do appreciate them when they happen.
The dilemma I have faced on numerous occasions is that you don’t know which end of the spectrum you might be dealing with on that first date. Traditionally, if a man asks a lady out on a date, he pays. That is no longer the norm, so I always show up prepared to split the check. The problem is; I have had men tell me they were offended when I reached for my wallet. With that said, I have male friends who have said they are offended if the woman does not offer to contribute. Even if it is their intent to pay, they want to know she at least offered. So what are we women to do??
There clearly is no “one size fits all” solution. I can only recommend that, like most challenges, it all comes down to communication. Here are my suggestions:
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1. Be who you are. If you were brought up with good manners and taught to treat a lady with respect, continue to do so. Do not let the haters rattle you and cause you to hold back. You will come across the women that will see you as a dying breed and will express their appreciation for your courtesy.
2. Communicate clearly. When you ask a woman out and intend to pay–say something like, “I would like to treat you to dinner (or lunch or drinks, whatever applies). That sets the expectation up front and alleviates the anxiety of both parties when the check arrives. Another sly move is to excuse yourself from the table at some point, find your server and give him/her your credit card before she brings the check to the table. If you prefer to split the tab, then your invitation might be worded more like “We should meet up for drinks or a bite to eat” That has a much more casual connotation and less likely she will be expecting you to pay. When the check arrives, open it up and set it between you–she will get the message.
3. Set the tone. If chivalry is in your nature, show it from the get go. Ask her out in person or on the phone, not via text. Open the car door for her as well as the door at your destination. Compliment her in a non-sexual way. Keep the conversation respectful in nature. On the other hand, if chivalry is not your thing, do yourself and her a favor and don’t fake it. The real you will eventually come out. You attract what you put out there. If you want a woman who appreciates a gentleman and enjoys being treated like a lady, BE a gentleman, and she will find you. If you want to keep it casual, there are plenty of women who are fine with the more modern way of connecting and not interested in old-fashioned courtship. So again, be yourself and you will find your match.
4. Don’t take things personally. There are all types of people that make this world go ‘round. Just because they are different does not mean they are wrong. It just might mean they are wrong for you. So if you plan to pay for a date, but the woman pulls out her wallet, don’t get offended. Appreciate the gesture. See it as though she is sending the message that she is there for your company and not a free meal. On the other hand, if you are expecting her to share the bill, and she does not come prepared, don’t assume she is a freeloader. You never know what someone else’s experiences are that have shaped their expectations. Be yourself, enjoy the company (hopefully) and decide if you want to do it again.
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Be true to yourself and your values, communicate your intentions.
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Unfortunately, there are so many points of view on what is appropriate; there will never be hard and fast rules. Be true to yourself and your values, communicate your intentions and most of all be consistent. While there are no guarantees, implementing these suggestions should significantly reduce your awkward moments on the dating scene.
I would love to hear your feedback on chivalry and modern dating etiquette. What are your tips to avoid tension?
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Photo: Flickr/ Ed Yourdon
Silke – I’m not against older men/younger women relationships by themselves. Men like Jules or FlyingKal, who while I know have their own issues with women, also appear to have a healthier and more equal views about women’s age and values as human beings. These kind of older men make good partners. Not men that advocate to other men to use women for their age. I’m just against men advocating to each other that they should specifically be going after younger women, supporting the use and objectification of women, and then turning around and being upset about how ‘shallow’ women… Read more »
Erin I agree with you. And even if I am sure many of the marriages between men in my country and a woman from another country are good. The men also know the woman’s family back home need the money they couple can send them. But I do not see the same tendency here that those men bring in young women, more often a woman their own age group. Often the woman is in her forties or 50+ ,with children. But read this. I do not know if we can trust it ,but I like what I see here. So… Read more »
Erin
Forbes forgot in their article to write the number one most important thing these men want in a spouse:
1::: Mutual attraction,love.
while
8::: Good Looks.
So let’s stop saying men maily look for the best looking woman.
Silke – I’d like to honestly believe that’s the case but I still have my doubts. Thanks for the article though. It was really nice to read. I’m certainly sure it’s true for some men.
I also found this article that I thought was interesting too : http://healthland.time.com/2012/09/07/when-men-stop-seeking-beauty-and-women-care-less-about-wealth/
@ Erin, “Silke – I’d like to honestly believe that’s the case but I still have my doubts.” You have a valid reason to still have doubts Erin. As a man, I can tell you that a beautiful woman still is the envy of most men eyes. I am sure you have noticed just how nutty we men can become around an attractive woman. What fools and idiots we can make ourselves… I think Silke is also correct. In the end, when all the dust settles, what a man really wants in a woman and from a woman is mutual… Read more »
Erin, thank you for your response to Silke. So as to clarify, I said nothing that showed support or lack of support with what Stuart said. Silke jumped to a conclusion because of my asking her what he said bothered her … no more, no less.Although I may agree with some of what he said, it doesn’t mean I believe in everything he said. For example I had a twinge of discomfort when he was peaking of “Guys in their 40’s to 60’s are dating good looking women in mid to late 20’s and having a field day” where as… Read more »
Tom – you never answered my question. Would you want a man like Stuart for your daughter of granddaughters (hypothetical or real)? Would you want a 60 year old man dating or marrying your own daughter? I’m going to guess your daughter is inbetween 25-35. There is a saying that goes, “For evil to flourish, it only requires that good men do nothing.” Stuart was pretty outlandishly degrading toward women. Sure, you may not have showed support, but like you said, you didn’t show a lack of support either. I am pretty troubled that you could agree with any of… Read more »
Erin
Many of the transnational marriages are good ,.but some are terrible and can be described as human trafficking through marriage.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/imig.12060/abstract
“Here’s a tip though: If this is a guy you want to see again and you both know you want to see each other again, this is your opportunity to say “ok, but I am paying next time”.
Or maybe let him pay for the date because he asked you out and become more aggressive. Say you enjoyed your time together and would like to take him to whatever place you think the two of you would enjoy and then you pay for the date.
And then next time, I can cook him dinner. And then it’s expected that after that, he cooks me dinner next time. I’ll even give him my receipt so he knows how much to spend. And then, if I buy him his favorite beer or wine, he must right after do the same or me – because ‘equal’ is about making sure everything is preciously given in the exact form in which it was given……. or If he takes me out and pays for a date, I can cook him dinner and we can both open our hearts to *give*… Read more »
Why do you think a person has to keep score? We have some one who says she’s confused about when to offer and / or pay for a date. I’m assuming she brought it up because at some level it bothers her. How is your idea fundamentally different than my suggestion? It’s essentially the same thing except your offering a home cooked meal unless of course you demand he buy the ingredients then it would be different.
John – It was my understanding that you were keeping score.
“‘Traditionally, if a man asks a lady out on a date, he pays. That is no longer the norm, so I always show up prepared to split the check. The problem is; I have had men tell me they were offended when I reached for my wallet. With that said, I have male friends who have said they are offended if the woman does not offer to contribute. Even if it is their intent to pay, they want to know she at least offered. So what are we women to do??” Just a thought, but you could always start by… Read more »
Frank – I realize every man is different which is a challenge I presented. I have no problem paying – but when a man is offended by my offer, it creates unnecessary tension. Again – that doesn’t “always” happen. Some take me up on it, some refuse but appreciate my offer (in which case I offer to get it next time), but those who are turned off is where I get confused.
You’re confused? Don’t worry about it. I’ve read things so wrong before it could be epic. Once I has a friend who I spoke with fairly regularly. We met in college and worked in the same area. I gave her a ride home from work a few times. Mutual friends said she liked me. About a week later she asks me out to lunch (she paid). I’m thinking that she wants to move the relationship to the next level. I’m not sure that’s the direction I want to go, but I’m leaning in that direction. She mentioned her fiance for… Read more »
Have you read Men On Strike by Helen Smith? Double standards in dating are just one of the reasons men are walking away from relationships and marriage in general. Many feel it is no longer worth the time or effort.
Wes Car
Have you read the article Mark Greene posted this week about white men in the age group 45-55 , with low education that die in large numbers in America right now?
LIfe is hard.
Do you think men’s chance of having a good life ,and not ending up as addicts or die by suicide increase when men refuse to have any kind of relationship with women?
I see the problem with marriage,so let’s only talk about relationships
I’m disappointed with this article.
GMP bills itself as the conversation no one else is having. But this is a conversation EVERYONE is having. This chicken has been gnawed to the bone already.
The conversation no one else is having, and which I thought this was gonna be – is about women being chivalrous to men.
And also…what about TEH GAY? They should be able to teach the poor confused straights a whole lot here.
Here’s my take. If I ask a woman out, I fully intend to pay for the meal, movies, whatever. I may not ask her out a second time depending on what she does like if she orders the most expensive items on the menu with every possible add-on. There are other tip offs equally important. Is she ready when you get there or are you waiting another half hour? Does she value your time? If a woman offers to split the check though, that’s different. U’m taking her up on in. Her reaction will tell you a lot about her… Read more »
John – you often talk about liking younger women better. If you are going out with younger women, why shouldn’t she oder the most expensive on the item? She deserves a compromise of some kind for your age doesn’t she? As the older man, it’s expected that you bring the money and she bring the youth. It seems a bit hypocritical that you would take issue with a woman initially being interested in your money yet you often talk about your preference for women 20 years younger than yourself. When I dated older men, I certainly held them to a… Read more »
@ Erin Did I say that I wasn’t going to pay? She gets a benefit. She gets a free meal. Demanding the most expensive things on the menu would be the same as me saying that I should be able to have sex with her any way I want. It’s not a question of benefit. It’s a question of limits. Certainly, people can have whatever type relationship they agree to in their private lives. They can base these decisions on any criterion they choose. Guess what. That includes me. I’ve never said anything other than this is my personal view..… Read more »
John – I don’t get your question. I never accused you of not paying on a date. All I said is that if you are taking a woman out, then she should be allowed to order what she wants. Or, just be honest and point out what she can’t order so there is no question about the issue. You’re always telling women that they should be upfront and willing to ask for what they want, such as asking men out. Okay, then when you take a woman out, just tell her what she can’t order. Be upfront about your expectations… Read more »
@ Erin It’s not that she can’t order what she wants or that I won’t pay for it. I asked her out so that’s what I’d expect with no qualifications, however, just like with any person the way that person acts on a date affects whether you ask them on another. That’s my point. Maybe it just so happens that these expensive items were just the things she wants, but that tells you something about how the relationship will go. Maybe she has lots of money and is just used to the finer things. Well, you have to decide whether… Read more »
So being broke and ordering something expensive automatically makes someone opportunistic? Maybe she orders something expensive because she took him at his word that he was inviting her to dinner for a nice evening and decided to see this a chance to experience something new with no extra motive behind it. I’m not saying that a woman ordering the most expensive thing on the menu is always innocent. But it’s not always “opportunistic’ either. It comes down to what kind of person she is. And like you said, and with which I totally agree, you date someone to see how… Read more »
“When I dated older men, I certainly held them to a higher expectation around these issues. Although I never dated an older man that didn’t pay. But that’s how it should be. That should be the benefit of these types of relationships. It doesn’t mean it can’t grow into love. But you get a benefit from dating someone younger. She deserves to get a benefit from the relationship as well. ” If that is how you see relationships, then a lot of your comments make sense. Sometimes people want a younger woman for pure physical attraction reasons, or issues around… Read more »
” All she has to do is to show up and work less…” Is this the way of young women in Australia? They don’t study or work to learn a profession to be able to get a job they like? Do actually young Australian women in 2015 just show up an work less after they find the man they want to share their life with? No education, no ambitions , no other wants than to show up and and work less. Among all the women wealthy men can choose to fall in love with they choose that kind of women?… Read more »
I meant in the realm of dating with the gold diggers.
Most people in long-term relationships here usually have an equal amount of time spent doing housework + paid work and split the bills evenly, men pay more as they do more paid work but it’s ok because it’s balanced as the family income since she does more unpaid work in the home.
Archy, it is always a challenge to see , recognize who is out to use you and who is a person that loves you. We can all be fooled. Ross Rosenberg has a series of videos here on GMP right now about how to spot those that use others and have little empathy .And he also tells that us that if we choose ,again and again ,them we must look at why we do so. Some men seem to talk a lot about women being gold diggers,and those men never seems to grasp why they tend to be drawn to… Read more »
Archy – you said, “If that’s how you see relationships, then a lot of your comments make sense.” Can you please explain to me how *you* think I see relationships? It’s very logical to hold older men up to a higher level of expectation then men your own age or younger men. With maturity comes experience and responsibility and higher expectations. (Something you note yourself.) It’s reasonable to hold older men to a higher standard. There is nothing wrong with this. But please, feel free to give me a reason why older men should not be held to a higher… Read more »
This is directed to both John and Erin:
You BOTH have just massively creeped me out. I do not make a habit of treating other people as transactional opportunities, sexually, economically, or otherwise, and seeing it come from both a man and a woman IN THE SAME CONVERSATION on here just highlights for me how disturbed humanity at large is.
So … err … yay, equality?
I don’t think you know what your talking about. I don’t date men for economic reasons and I don’t advocate for women to use men for money. I have dated men of all income levels. I have no clue what your talking about. Even when I was younger and had a boyfriend offer to pay off my entire college education did I ever think twice about accepting such an offer. I told him never to make such an offer to a woman again because the wrong one would take him up on it.
Tom, you covered all the main points well. To the writer I would say “cool your jets !”. If you want to get to know a man that will lead to a relationship, offer to meet as “friends” and get to know each other for a month or so. Build some trust and shared experiences. If the Guy doesn’t want that, then blow him off. To the Guys 40 and over, I would just ignore American women and invest in some espanol lessons and head South, Costa Rica, Medellin, etc. The American culture has largely destroyed stable women who work.… Read more »
I am horrified reading this comment!
Why
You often tell us that you are a Christian Tom. If you think Stuart K’s comment is OK, a fine good attitude ,good values about the relationship between men and women, then I have lost respect for you. I do not want to answer your question because it is so obvious why this man and any human being that talk about others the way he does ,,they make me so upset that I prefer to use my day on other tasks than to describe how he make me feel. If he intered my home I would throw him out. I… Read more »
I simply asked a question and that’s why you’re “horrified.” What part of what he said bothers you. He said a lot in his response, which part of it disturbs you the most?
It is nothing wrong with marriage between a man and women from different countries Tom.
That is not the problem here,
As you well know that can be an enrichment to both parts.
Maybe I will answer your question later on.
And to clarify, I’m not sure I even said that I liked or disliked anything/everything he said? But if you read and reread what he wrote, there is a lot of insight on his part. Appears to me that he’s keeping it real. And that’s why I asked what bothered you … it was tro open up a discussion.
Halloween effect?
🙂
Strange is not ,how being near certain people makes you a better person,opens up your heart ,fill you with warmth and tenderness for men and the whole world.
While others bring out the absolute worst in you.
Yes something her triggered the ugly part of me ,and all the monsters inside of me came alive.
Silke, I was horrified by his comment at well. And surprised that Tom didn’t see anything wrong with it. Not because he is a Christian, I don’t want to use his religious beliefs against him for Tom is still a person. But the pure inhumanity of Stuart’s response was disturbing to say the least. You don’t have to be a person of faith to see that. Tom, please ask yourself if you would have wanted a man like Stuart for your own daughter. Or for your grand daughters if you have any of those. I would also like to point… Read more »
It’s a pretty disgusting comment to be honest. Treating everyone as monoliths, young women this, older women that, acting as if women in a country are broken or damaged.
Stuart – I’m not sure what warranted the “Cool your jets” comment. I merely shared my experiences and asked for the experiences of others. I have no animosity, just trying to figure out how to navigate the ever-changing landscape of dating life.
You made a lot of generalized, negative statements about women that I do not feel to be true. Clearly we come from very different perspectives.
And of course my comment has been m’d
Actually, you’re comment was reviewed and posted.
I see that now, thank you.
It’s seriously endangered. I see it as “damned if ya do and damned if ya don’t. It’s interesting how women have set this stage and expect men to follow but the rules change from one women to the next. I know of no man that doesn’t expect to pay for a night out but hesitates because they don’t know where the women is coming from. I’ve had women, more then once, tell me they can open their own door. Yet when I stop at 7-11 in the morning, I don’t care who is coming through, man women or child, I… Read more »
Tom – It was not my intent to make “need” a bad word. I place a different meaning on “need” versus “want” and “appreciate”. In other words, I am able to pay my mortgage and take care of myself without a man. That does not mean I do not prefer to have a partner in my life – someone I can count on (and who can count ion me). I am grateful and appreciative when a man wants to do something nice for me. Whether that is taking me out to dinner, opening a door, fixing something at my house,… Read more »
Women paying for their own food they consume isn’t a side effect of equality, it is equality. “Allow me to share my perspective. I am a single woman, gainfully employed, and I own my home. I do not “need” a man to take care of me. That does not, however, mean that I do not appreciate being treated like a lady and made to feel special.” So how do you make him feel special? Do you buy him dinners or is the financials a 1 way? Do you put in equal effort somewhere or is he spending more energy, doing… Read more »
Archy, thank you for writing everything that I was thinking. The reason why women never paid for meals much before the mid-twentieth century? Because they were not primary wage-earners and couldn’t pay their own way. If you go a little further back into Victorian and Edwardian times, the legal basis for this was that women were treated LEGALLY and SOCIALLY as the equivalent of custodial to their husbands much as children are treated legally towards their parents. This is all a fancy, detailed, and polite way of saying: Women didn’t pay their own way because women were chattel. When you… Read more »
Archy – I definitely feel there is responsibility on both sides to make the other feel special. I do a number of things to try and make my man feel special. The topic of chivalry (or dating etiquette) has come up a lot in recent conversations. My purpose was to explore the direction it has gone, not to convey expectations. I have no problem paying my share or even picking up the check – my experience, as I mentioned, is that some men are put off by that.
How old are these men that have been offended by your offers to pay your own way? I’m 28, and no one but NO ONE in my age demographic seems to get hung up on these things anymore. Pretty much, it’s generally considered that if one party (male or female) is inviting the other party out, the inviting party may pay the bill. Otherwise, splitting the bill is common for Millennials and not considered some grave affront by either men or women.
Mark – I am 45 so most are in the 40-50ish age range
I find the term chivalry too loaded with gender roles to be useful today. There needs to be a new word, treating both as equals as you appear you want from a relationship.
Well said Archy.
I agree.
8ball. I differ. It includes good manners. But it’s bigger than that. It also includes the requirement that, should a woman be in trouble, a man is obligated to help, irrespective of risk.
There was some footage from Texas where a woman’s car was about neck deep in flowing water. Several men had gone into the water to help her. Footage shows them also neck deep hauling her to the shore.
Yet no one would suggest a bunch of Texas nobodies were exhibiting chivalry.
I never defined chivalry having to mean that a man has to risk his life for me.
I also would never call those men that saved the women ‘chivalrous’. I would have called them “heroic”. Very rarely are women recognized for their ‘heroic’ acts either. Even less so then men.
8ball – I would not expect Life saving measures as chivalrous behaviors either. That would definitely be heroic. But love to hear that people are willing to put their life on the line for others.
chivalry =/= good manners.
I agree. Thank you!