Women lust, and men lust. Joanna Schroeder wonders why we can’t just leave it at that.
It all started with Tom Matlack talking about his friend’s wife’s tits. Well, it wasn’t as bad as I just made it sound there. It was actually about how his friend regarded his own wife’s tits after pregnancy and motherhood had deflated them. Well, it wasn’t even actually about that, either, but that’s what everyone remembers. It actually asked us all to think about how the world would change if men could just be open about their lust.
Then Marcus Williams answered with a fantastic piece where he concluded that the world really doesn’t want men to be open about their lust. We want so bad to be an open and honest society, you men want to be able to communicate with your wives and partners the way us women tell you we want you to. But in fact, as Marcus concluded, society doesn’t really accept that; society thinks your lust is yucky. And us wives think your lust for the things we can no longer offer you is hurtful.
So what does a woman, a woman over the age of 22, a married woman who has given birth, whose body is healthy and strong but not the same as it was pre-babies, think of your lust? Well, I think your lust is the same as ours. And I, like Tom, wonder what would happen if we could be open with our lust.
Instead of the way you husbands, even you excellent husbands, dream of our pre-baby boobs that looked great under our t-shirts in the morning before we put on our bras; instead of the way you dream of our bellies, the way the skin was taut and smooth in our bikinis all those pre-baby days at the beach—instead of dreaming of those things, we dream of your earlobes.
Yes, your earlobes. Your earlobes before hair. We even dream of your earlobes before the hair on them turned grey. And we dream of your backs. Oh your backs! Strong, taut, muscular, and hairless. We dream of your belly before you called it your “gut.” We dream of your feet before we had to tell you to cut your damn toenails.
Society has given you guys porn, strip clubs, and The Girls Next Door to keep you company. Up until recently, us equally-disenchanted wives had to settle for the leftovers of your lust—porn, even female-centered porn like that made by women such as Erika Lust, is just not most women’s thing. Male strippers aren’t exactly targeting women as their core audience, and although there are “great” male bodies to look at on TV, no women I know wake up with heaving chests after dreaming about The Situation from Jersey Shore.
But recently our prayers have been answered. Two words: Mark and Ryan. Ruffalo and Gosling. Ladies, you know what I’m sayin’. Mark Ruffalo is sorta nerdy, super-smart, politically active, and has a killer, killer body. Not to mention he has a smart, pretty, talented wife with a cool haircut.
And Ryan Gosling! After Ryan Gosling was cheered by thinking women everywhere for scolding the MPAA for the NC-17 rating given to Blue Valentine, calling them misogynistic pawns of the patriarchal system, he became the darling of teenyboppers and feminists alike. He now even has a hysterical parody Tumblr page dedicated to him called Feminist Ryan Gosling, which I will admit to visiting daily. My fellow feminist friend created a mock-greeting card of Ryan Gosling, shirtless, saying, “Hey Joanna…” and then quoting his rant against the MPAA and posted it on my Facebook wall. It got 30 “likes” by all my girlfriends.
My husband doesn’t know about my thing for Ryan Gosling or Mark Ruffalo (until now—hi honey!), and I feel bad keeping it a secret, but what’s the point of rubbing it in? I don’t want to know if he’s calling up images of some young topless starlet on his MacBook, and he probably doesn’t want to know that I’m secretly dreaming of Noah from The Notebook.
Our lust doesn’t have to be shouted from the rooftops, but we shouldn’t be ashamed of it. You guys like round tits, and we like strong backs. But what most of us really like, when it comes down to it, are our spouses. I love my husband. He’s super sexy, he’s strong, he’s intelligent and funny. He’s a great father, and he sacrifices a lot for us. I know he feels the same about me. If he’s checking out Scarlett Johansen on Youtube, fine, he deserves it. As long as he doesn’t mind my repeated viewings of The Kids Are All Right.
—Photo AP/Joel Ryan
Is ryan gosling married? Does he have a family? No, he is a single childless hollywood bachelor millionaire. In other words, the dude is just trying to gret laid. He is a genius! Women are soooo gullible. Obviosuly the dudes life would be wack if it werent for promiscuous women. If he had to commit to one women and rais ea fmaily he would never say these things. He wouls be klooking for “mom”…just like the rest of us who have sewed our wild oats with “independent” women and nnow want a nuce nurturing family girl to settel down with.… Read more »
Having grown up on Japanese comic books, I always find it absolutely mystifying that anyone can pretend women don’t lust after and objectify men just as much as the other way around. I can walk to any bookstore in the city (Kanazawa, if you care) and find shelves full of enough material based around providing women of all ages with hot guys to drool over to crush a tank under the weight of them. Of course, the same could be said of the wall of trashy romance novels in every American bookstore and supermarket that so many people love to… Read more »
I love your work, Joanna!
most husbands let themselves go. I cannot think of any men who look as good as they did before they had kids. I think Marcus probably looked better pre-baby too. He must have a nice wife who doesn’t point out his man boobs or extra chub.
Sorry, I used the NASB. Also, this is in reference to true adultery. It’s an oxy moron to say that if you look at your wife with lust, you’re committing adultery.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” -Matthew 5:27-28
That’s all.
Matthew who? Is that from a peer-reviewed journal, because I’d kind of like to see what data and methodology he used.
And I’m sure that admonition actually matters to some minor fraction of devout Christians. The rest of us? Shrug.
There is the 1634 “misprint” of a Bible printed in England that year that actually states “Thou shall commit adultery.” It caught quite a lot of attention at the time….
And, umm…what about a man’s wife? She’s a woman. If he lusts after her, is he committing adultery with his own wife?
P.S. When using biblical quotes, it is proper to provide the name of the version you are using. Is this the KJV, NIV, RSV, or….?
Wellokaythen..it came a bit late, but I figured out what bugged me about your initial sarcastic response. Here’s mine: All men hate me because they could only like jerky and bitchy women! I make 80,000 a year and work on my body, but when I follow a man around a grocery store and ask for his phone number, he won’t give it to me! I’ve spent hundreds of hours reading books on how to pick up men by playing on their insecurities and all it’s gotten me is an naive chubby college guy in a bar! I’m just going to… Read more »
Judges score:
USA: 9.8
CAN; 9.7
RUS: 9.7
CHI: 9.4
JPN: 9.5
ARG: 9.8
This moves you into contention for the silver medal. Good show!
<3
While I think Ryan Gosling is very attractive, I do not masturbate to images of him. I also don’t spend time online seeking out pictures of him or storing them in a folder for later viewing. And while us women have Ryan Gosling, don’t men have Angelina Jolie? I’m not sure the fact that there are attractive male actors are enough to combat all the outlets men have in regards to attractive women. I also find that when a woman is in love, she will find her imperfect husband/boyfriend so much more attractive then an actor. While I find with… Read more »
Marcus–I was thinking about the cheating thing, and I’ll try to explain the difference between that and shit-talking. Like you said, lusting is absolutely a non-issue, I think we’re both in agreement with that one. As for cheating, to me, it’s a mistake that can happen–a really bad one, but a mistake nonetheless: My partner is my lover and my ally. We are completely honest with each other, he’s the one I call first when I’m in trouble, he’s the one who gives me some incredible sex but with whom I can laugh when it’s awkward, he can tell me… Read more »
“Society has given you guys porn, strip clubs, and The Girls Next Door to keep you company. Up until recently, us equally-disenchanted wives had to settle for the leftovers of your lust—porn, even female-centered porn like that made by women such as Erika Lust, is just not most women’s thing.” You’re displaying a massive amount of female privilege here. Society gave men nothing. Men created strip clubs, porn, and other forms of sexual entertainment for themselves, in order to provide a respite from the sexual hierarchy. Women don’t necessarily gravitate towards these things because they already benefit from the cultural… Read more »
While I agree that the MPAA does pretend male exploitation is not an issue, I don’t think the MPAA gives two shits about protecting women from exploitation… at least not in the case of Blue Valentine. I’ve seen so many R-rated movies with sex scenes where the female was clearly in distress and the distress was eroticized. The issue with the movie Blue Valentine was that they wanted to give an NC-17 because of the scene where Williams was having somewhat-consentual (but miserable) sex with her husband. In contrast, Black Swan had a WAY more graphic sex scene between Portman… Read more »
Your earlobes before hair. We even dream of your earlobes before the hair on them turned grey. And we dream of your backs. I’ve never been an especially hairy guy, but now that I get stray hairs popping up from time to time on my ears and back, my wife likes to tweeze them out, and strangely, I kinda like it, too. I reciprocate, but it’s more about finding ingrown hairs than a stray hair search. It reminds me of primates that pick and preen at each other, but without fleas and mites. Any other secret pickers out there? C’mon,… Read more »
Hmm. Are you saying I shouldn’t have fleas and mites in my back hair? This could explain the problem I’ve been having with…oh. Never mind.
My poor husband – he suffers for my art – I totally wax the parts on him that need waxing! I like it. He likes it. He doesn’t wax me, but he did have to teach me to pop a zit, I’m the luckiest human on the planet in that I didn’t really have a pimple until I was thirty…
This is a part of intimacy. It bonds us. Not every couple is set up for this, but it works for us.
I totally understand. I don’t get acne on my face, but I got a pimple on my lower…lower…lower tummy recently. *ahem* I popped it in front of my partner (pus and all). He said, “please don’t do that ever again, I don’t want to associate that with your vagina.” We had a good laugh, forgot about it, and then great sex later that night. That level of intimacy is pretty nice, I can’t lie about it. It works for us, as well.
Yes, Joanna, you nailed it. There is no problem at all with lust, for either men or women, so long as you’re in a place of mutual trust. It becomes a problem only when there is some suspicion about your partner’s priorities, which honestly doesn’t have much to do with lust.
Laugh all you want, wellokthen–there’s been an exponential rise in men putting effort and money into their looks, and feeling uncomfortable in their own skin. More and more men are now mascaping, hitting the gym, getting botox, personal trainers, surgery, going to spas, using blow dryers, tanning, buying lotions and hair products marketed towards men, etc.. My own guy–who is very straight and very nerdy (not just a cute guy who wears glasses nerdy, but plays tons of MTG, is obsessed with fantasy and sci fi, and meets friends through his ‘nerdy’ habits)–refuses to go to a barber (needs to… Read more »
In reply to Aya, in proper GMP fashion: I must express my outrage at the unfair, unrealistic standards that women have forced (forced, I say!) men to follow. I refuse to mention any way in which men have any agency in their choices. Don’t even THINK about saying that we men do this manscaping for ourselves and our own reasons. We are merely programmed by the dominant culture from a very young age. Our sick society has sexualized back muscles – they’re just lumps of flesh designed to carry children, so what’s the big deal? We have to compete with… Read more »
Haha…OK, good point. There does seem to be a lot of women who don’t seem to believe that men have agency or brains. I personally never thought most men were like that. They should, at least, understand that what you see in a magazine isn’t always real life. That doesn’t mean that you can’t appreciate the beauty and art in it, or be turned on by woman’s body, pose, or (even airbrushed) perfection. I’ve done quite a bit of modeling, so I know how good I look in great lighting–but I also know that on a bad day, in the… Read more »
I’m with Aya, per usual.
I’m also with Aya on the topic of men’s shoulders… I can’t believe I left out the shoulders.
Sigh.
Mmmmm….shoulders. Am I the only one that looks at hands and mouths first? 😉
Yeah, I’ve heard the “oh, you look so beautiful in sweatpants and no makeup” thing about a thousand times *yawn* That right there is a huge part of the problem from where I sit. I have, quite sincerely, told my wife (or other women, previously) that they are beautiful or sexy to me when they’re not trying. When the reaction is *yawn*, or “no, I’m not”, or “you’re just being nice”, or “you just want sex right now”, it makes me a little less likely to keep saying it, because I don’t like being talked out of it. If/when a… Read more »
Let me tell you, in my vast research into men – both friends and more-than-friends – that almost all straight men go apeshit for a girl in sweats and a tank top (no bra is an added bonus if the guy’s someone you’re intimate with). The overpriced black lace contraptions from Agent Provocateur may add some spice and variety, but there’s something spectacular about a woman when she’s relaxed, when she’s comfortable, and when she’s not trying. Sure Aya, women like us know how to work it in heels and the right wardrobe – not even slutty, just attention-getting. But… Read more »
You’re right, J.F. I guess the point wasn’t very clear. I was just trying to say, that while most men do love a woman with no makeup and sweatpants (everyone I’ve been with has said something along the lines of it, hence the yawn), I also understand that there’s a fantasy element they’re attracted to–whether that be heels or soft lighting (that makes makeup and no sweatpants look a lot better :)). Keep in mind too, that when a woman puts effort into a look and the man says ‘oh, I just prefer you in sweatpants’…it’s a little annoying, especially… Read more »
I can’t help but laugh, because I think it’s funny when vanity leads people to do absurd things. It’s absurd when people of all genders insert poison into their faces in an attempt to feel better about themselves. (They have every right to, god bless ‘em, and who knows, maybe I don’t know what I’m missing.) Botox is the main reason that our cans of food have expiration dates on them. We’ve spent centuries trying to make preserved food safe from poisons, and now we’re sticking the poison directly into ourselves. What next, using polio to slim your legs? Tetanus… Read more »
You know, I feel like an idiot for saying this–but that’s one of the reasons I kind of like JWoww from Jersey Shore. Yeah, shut up. She doesn’t hide her plastic surgery, deny it, or shy away from it, like many celebrities do: Snooki and JWoww are walking by a church in Italy. They get yelled at for being dressed too skimpily. Snooki says: “God made my tits!” JWoww says: “God didn’t make mine.” I like that she can joke about it. I haven’t ever gotten plastic surgery, but I can’t say that I won’t in the future. I just… Read more »
Yeah, I think it’s good to have a sense of humor about one’s body. It’s also very disarming to let people know “yeah, I know it looks fake, so what?” Takes the fun out of making fun of you if you’re already laughing about your plastic surgery. If you pretend like you’re fooling everyone, then you look like a total fool. If only men with toupes could laugh about wearing them, then people wouldn’t snicker so much behind their backs and we could all allow ourselves to stare. Tough call about the botox versus the raised eyebrow. I gotta say,… Read more »
It’s bad…you really shouldn’t bother watching it, but…..so damn entertaining :/. Yeah, though–if people seriously think that a crappy reality show is single-handedly bringing down America, then we’re in deeper shit than we thought. If anything, it’s a symptom…of our education system…or something. Fist pump?
Whoa. Be careful, now. You’re playing with fire, and your brain is in great danger. We all know from this site that objectifying someone online is just a short, slippery slope to raping someone and/or becoming so addicted that you destroy all of your personal relationships. You are simply reinforcing the ridiculous fairy tale standards that program our consciousness as males in this society. Telling us you lust after Ryan Gosling will now compel us men to kill ourselves in the hopeless effort to look just like him. Knowing that you are attracted to him now makes me doubt all… Read more »
Yes. I totally agree, Joanna. While I don’t personally like being objectified (except on occasion by my boyfriend), I get that there are some women out there who do. And they’re not going to stop posing for Playboy, and even if they did, (some?) men are not going to stop objectifying women. So… why not even the playing field? So I will take almost any opportunity to objectify men. Mark Ruffalo yes! Ryan Gosling—I wouldn’t kick that out of my bunk. While I have never considered the sexiness of earlobes, there is something nice about the back of someone’s neck.… Read more »
I posted this in Marcus’s article and just want to make a point clear here too: Lust is not the problem. Breasts are not the problem, any of them. Not at all. The problem is Mr. W talking behind her back, using the word ‘ruined’ in regards to someone he loves, and feeling like he’s a good person just because he didn’t cheat on her with a teenager. That shows her disrespect. I’m sure she knows her tits aren’t as good as they were before childbirth. He doesn’t have to make it worse by embarrassing her and talking about them… Read more »
Even my husband has a man-crush on Ryan Gosling — a man-crush.
Who doesn’t? Well, its more of an idolization…
If you weren’t married to a wonderful husband, I’d ask you to marry me. That about sums it all up, and I’m glad you articulated it so clearly.
PS — I would question my significant other if she claimed she DIDN’T think Ryan Gosling is hot.
Stephen – I’ll let you know if my wonderful husband leaves me after reading this article 😉
Then Marcus Williams answered with a fantastic piece where he concluded that the world really doesn’t want men to be open about their lust. We want so bad to be an open and honest society, you men want to be able to communicate with your wives and partners the way us women tell you we want you to. But in fact, as Marcus concluded, society doesn’t really accept that; society thinks your lust is yucky. And us wives think your lust for the things we can no longer offer you is hurtful. world? society? Marcus was more specific than that.… Read more »
Yes, that was a hell of an attack, and kind of two-faced from where I sit. Almost all women friends, coworkers, acquaintances I have known have bemoaned some physical aspect of their partners, friends, etc., yet wouldn’t consider themselves bad partners for it. So why were the women on the thread so sensitive about a man vocalizing his feelings to a friend, in confidence? Why are we policing people’s thoughts and feelings? It doesn’t make any man or woman less wonderful a partner…it would if they voiced said feelings to a partner to be hurtful, or to request the person… Read more »
Yeah, you’re absolutely right that it happens from both ends. I guess because it made it into the public realm that it got such a response. YET, I’d personally rather have a partner tell me if I’m letting myself go and allow me to change it, than to go around telling people I might run into personal stuff about our sex lives or my body. I would never go and tell people who might meet my partner the things about his body or our sex life that I might find not so great. I certainly wouldn’t use relatively cruel terms… Read more »
I also don’t think that cheating is the end of the world–it sucks, but I see it as more humane than whining and embarrassing your partner, and better than spending your time bitter and self-pitying when you’re not happy. “Well I talk shit behind your back about your body, don’t bother to tell you you’re pretty or do anything nice, and nag you all the time…At least I don’t cheat or abuse you!” Cheating just means you want to have sex with someone else (it’s human); complaining to others means that you’re unhappy and willing to be dishonest with your… Read more »
YET, I’d personally rather have a partner tell me if I’m letting myself go and allow me to change it How do you suppose that approach might go over with my wife, middle-aged mother to twin toddlers, if I extended that courtesy of telling her which parts I think she’s “let go” so that she be allowed the opportunity to work on them for me? Cheating just means you want to have sex with someone else (it’s human); complaining to others means that you’re unhappy and willing to be dishonest with your partner. Wow. I guess cheating is also in… Read more »
Marcus, as a mother of two like your wife, please do not point out what you would like her to work on. I know you know this, but I’m just being clear. On the other hand, she’ll know you’re full of shit if you act like she looks the same as she did the day you met. I started to really admire my husband when he FINALLY admitted that the skin on my belly is, in fact, a little jacked up from being so round with child. He kept denying it and I would say, “you’re losing credibility, babe, I… Read more »
Thanks. I wasn’t planning on trying it, but I was curious how Aya thought that might go for an older couple with kids and not much spare time.
In my experience–and let me clarify that I’m a gay male, so the whole my-partner’s-body-changed-after-pregnancy thing doesn’t apply–after a while of being with someone, even if they’ve let themselves go in some regard… it is the fact that it is _THEM_ that makes them attractive. And I think that shows a healthy kind of bonding that men and women alike tend to believe is not possible; that our partners find us attractive only for very predictable, very shallow reasons. So, JF, the statement your husband (finally) made about your belly skin reminded me of that fact.
“I guess because it made it into the public realm that it got such a response.”
Well obviously. Naturally there could be no such response if it hadn’t been made public.
But I think the point here is the double standard.
Marcus, were you writing about the ‘world, society’, or the women in the comment threads and based on their reactions, het women generally? I confess to having a hunch that some of my feeling and observations must apply to all humanity, or at least all of whatever gender I’m contemplating, but so many people are wrong in thinking that way that I figure I must be, too. So yes, I did try to confine my observations to the women I responded to *and women like them*. In my mind, that’s hundreds of millions, but it’s possible the actual sample is… Read more »
Word 🙂
It’s interesting to see HOW Gosling is objectified in the movies he stars in, especially Crazy, stupid, love. It’s so refreshing to see a scene with a hot man and a hot woman (Gosling/Stone) and it’s the man’s body that the camera makes a meal of (his arms and back and neck). I’m not sure that it’s good to fight objectification with objectification however I think that watching a movie like that gives men a little glimpse of how it feels to deal with objectification in pop culture every day. My sweetheart enjoyed CSLove, but there was a point in… Read more »