Can we allow ourselves to admit that sex just isn’t as important as we make it out to be?
This weekend we lost some friends.
The news came in the form of a phone call from one of the parties involved. It was a sad goodbye, letting us know that our couples’/family friendship, which we both enjoyed, was no longer. Their marriage was over. The culprit, of course, was sex.
I won’t pretend to empathize with either party. The pain they both must be going through is beyond my frame of reference. I won’t belittle it by offering platitudes. All I could do was offer condolences, reaffirm the “you’ve got to do what you’ve got to do”, and re-emphasize that although the nature of our friendship will never be the same, my love will still be there, unchanged.
To spend even 1% of all the hours in your life having sex, you’d have to spend roughly 90 minutes a week in the act of lovemaking. Married couples with kids will tell you (with a wink and a smile) that 90 minutes a week is a good week.
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The totality of the news, taken in all its context, left me feeling ugly and defeated. Couple friends where the moms, dads and kids all get along simultaneously are hard to come by, and that loss was enough to put a damper on the day. But it was also a blow against faithful, committed relationships in a way that makes you feel sad and dirty at the same time.
♦◊♦
What is this grip that sex has over us? Yes, I’m a scientist. I understand the evolutionary importance and the irresistible limbic-system drive to procreate. I understand the biological rationale for sprinkling sexual implications into every aspect of our lives. I understand the neurochemical rewards we receive for having sex — how it feels so damn good it incentivizes more of the same behavior later. I appreciate that it is such a primitive, bare-bones, evolutionary drive that it sits right at the center of the collective psyche of our species, and for that reason it’s a really easy place for all the broken bits of our lives to manifest themselves and express themselves in our sexual behavior.
But for crying out loud, it’s just sex.
How much time in our lives do we spend actually performing sex, compared with everything else? Even a p0rn-actor who goes to work and has sex from 9-5 spends only 40 hours a week (assuming no overtime) which boils down to less than 25% of all the hours in a week. To spend even 1% of all the hours in your life you’d have to spend roughly 90 minutes a week in the act of lovemaking. Though it’s certainly within the realm of possibility, married couples with kids will tell you (with a wink and a smile) that 90 minutes a week is a good week.
For something that takes up such a small fraction of the totality of what we do with our lives, how do we let it have such a grip over the rest? Entire industries revolve around sex. Those that don’t are infected by it whether they admit it or not. It’s everywhere. It’s inescapable; and yet, the success of my day has more to do with what the traffic on the freeway is like, rather than whether or not I had sex the night before. The emotional implications, the domestic implications and the health implications of our sexual practices seem ridiculously out of balance given everything else our lives require of us.
There are a thousand things necessary for a successful day and a successful life. Balancing the checkbook. Reading to the kids. Visiting your parents. Maintenance on the house. Laughing. Resting. Playing. Growing. Learning. These are the things of life. These are the things that determine whether we are fulfilled, whether we are successful in life. None of them require intercourse. And yet still we venerate sex as the ultimate goal in life, as if everything else is just a way of occupying time between sexual interludes. We high-five our friends when they “got lucky” or “got some” or “got some action” as if to say “Well done. You got that taken care of. Now you can move on to all the other stuff.”
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Granted, there is no better way to foster intimacy with your partner than sex. It connects you and makes you vulnerable and draws you together with another person like no other way can. But when considering intimacy, it isn’t even necessary for that (blasphemy, I know). Imagine the potency of your partner gently running her fingers through your hair, or down your back. Picture those moments when you’re lost, looking into your partner’s eyes, and neither of you has to say anything. Think for a moment on the lasting rewards of gently holding hands, or on the way you can totally lose yourself in a deep, committed kiss. These too are the things of intimacy. Because of them, even if you never knew sex, surely you could still know intimacy.
To be cold and clinical, the only thing sex is absolutely *REQUIRED* for is baby making—and even in that case there are exceptions.
Last night lying in bed, after more than 10 years of marriage, I asked my wife “Do you trust me? I mean do you *REALLY* trust me?”
“Of course I do” she replied. “I wouldn’t have had three kids with you if I didn’t.”
She’s no dummy. The idea of me stepping out on her is laughable. First of all, even if I wanted to, there is no opportunity. I work from 7am – 6pm and I’m home within minutes for dinner. There are no real “nights out with the guys” or “business trips” which could be a cover for a clandestine meet-up with someone else. She’s all up in my life in a way that doesn’t allow for secrets. That’s just the way it is. Add to that the fact that in real life, guys like me just don’t get girls like her. She’s WAY above my station. She’s smarter than me. She’s more thoughtful than me. She’s a better parent than me. She’s more likeable than me. She’s infinitely better looking than me. She would have no problem finding a replacement for me. I, on the other hand, could never recover from losing her. Finally there’s also the fact that I am totally in love with her. She fills my cup completely. I look across the table at her and I can not imagine a better life.
And then she went and had my babies, and with each one I fell in love with her even more.
To lose all that for the fleeting, momentary, primitive, physical gratification of an extramarital tryst would be the height of insanity—even if I had the desire.
♦◊♦
Which I don’t.
It serves no purpose to play the pious blogger, and I’m conscientious about coming across that way. I don’t think I’m any better than anyone else. I am a relativist at heart and I can appreciate that it takes two people to be in a relationship. You can never know what’s going on behind the curtain in a relationship you aren’t part of, or what’s going on under the hood in a life you haven’t lived. But I will say this:
If somehow the act of sex was cleanly extracted from my life leaving everything else intact, although it would be incredibly disappointing, as laughable as it may sound, my life in its entirety would be relatively unaffected. Everything that I need to get through my day would still be there. The love, the intimacy, the laughter, the living of life—I’d just have to find some other way to fill that 1% of my time.
This article originally appeared on Dork Daddy.
Photo by Porchelinn.
The things I find *really* curious here is, why did the friendship go? So, the couple is getting a divorce. Hard on them. But why does that mean you can no longer be friends?
Is it just me, or does it seem that anyone who gets up in arms about a breach of trust in the “mutually exclusive” part of a relationship, puts way more emphasize on the “exclusive” part than on the mutuality…?
The exclusivity seems to be generally regarded as a right rather than an responsibility.
For me at least, sex is relative. I have refused lot of women. Yes working part time in a nightclub pays off, but drunk girls arent really for me. Either they are sober or nothing. But I have to admit for me (at least) sex is quasi secundary, what is important in my eyes, is intimacy. Sex I can do it by my own (my right hand, mans best friend) but I cant with intimacy. I need another person. Sex is easy to attain (score, mercenary or self loving) but the other one is difficoult. Anyhow no matter how we… Read more »
@Mr Supertypo…
“Anyhow no matter how we turn the topic, sex in the relationship is important. Is like the glue. Without it the partners will slowly glide away. Both need to put the effort to keep the flame alive. If both partners fails, they are both responsable of the doom of the relationship.”
Ditto! And it is not going to change. If women just want to deny it or dismiss it or not ignore it, then so be it. But, fewer men are going to opt for committed relationships.
Physical intimacy is also easier to obtain for women, in addition to sex
The author makes the very valid point that sex is not the only driver of a relationship, that there are many, many other things that keep relationships together, and many other ways to have intimacy. He’s also speaking from the monagmy model, which dosen’t work for every person either. But I’ll say this: in many situations where the sex life is going downhill, it is the symptom, not the cause of the relationship suffering. To put it bluntly, if your sex life is suffering, you’d better look really hard at every other aspect of your relationship, and see what isn’t… Read more »
That’s a very good point. Just because sex can be a very important part of life doesn’t mean it’s independent of other things, and the quality of a sex life is highly dependent on the larger relationship. I can find some little piece of wisdom in the article if I look at it that way. Look at and improve other parts of one’s relationship and the sex life will likely get better. No guarantees on that, but a declining sex life in a relationship is not automatically irreversible. I can attest to that personally. And, having *some* sexual incompatibility is… Read more »
This article seems to have touched a nerve. I think we can acknowledge that sex is a basic human need and many people do not get the amount or quality of sex they would like. Feeling sexually undesirable can be soul crushing. I’m a woman who has never been considered conventionally “hot” or beautiful — I have a very average looking face and a so-so body, I’m too tall for most guys, and I completely lack a sense of fashion. I’ve gone through periods of my life where I had no opportunities for sexual relationships and I felt totally unwanted… Read more »
You’ve raised a few interesting points. Let me see if I can put a bit of perspective on a couple. First, you mention not having access to the sex you want. That’s fair, but I think many men feel they don’t have access to sex, full stop. Not just sex with their preferred type of partner, but with any type of partner. In essence, they’re complaining about having no options among which to choose, while you’re saying you don’t like the options you have. I’m not saying either position is better or worse than the other, only that perhaps you’re… Read more »
I just read Emily’s piece. My experience with online dating while poly was quite the opposite of hers. I approached a lot of men but (due to the poly) got turned down a lot. Which makes me question the whole “men will sleep with anyone and women will always be able to get laid whenever they want.” Cause clearly there were single men out there, finding me attractive but then not going for it due to that one barrier. So. I’ve always approached men and women I’ve been interested in and rarely get approached directly. Does it suck? Yeah, it… Read more »
Nick, maybe I don’t get asked out because I don’t wear enough yoga pants? 😉
My advice to women like you, Sarah and Emily would be to conduct a little experiment First have a good assessment of your physical attractiveness. Say youre in the 40th percentile. Which mean if you line up 100 random women you happen to be better than 40%. Then you look for men who would beyour EQUAL in attractiveness, ie at 40th percentile. Make 2 profiles on a fcuk finder website. One using your pictures, another of a male who is your equal in attractivenss. Send out 100 messages to opp sex from each profile. Now wait for a week and… Read more »
You women have it better than men who are your EQUALS.
Way better
Uh, no I don’t. I have been the pursuer in the vast majority of my relationships and have never been the subject of poems and that sounds kind of horrible and weird to me. I pursued lots of average (cute to me, but usually nerdy or geeky) men who were put off by polyamory, like “you are sexy but that poly stuff is weird.” thus…men who are being offered sexytimes, and turning it down and then I hear that men never turn it down and that women never approach. I know you all want to believe this to be true,… Read more »
Yes, definitely the yoga pants. Here, try these: http://shop.lululemon.com/products/category/women-crops
Make sure to get them at least two sizes too small, so you have to oil up to get them on.
Thanks! Whew!
Nick First, you mention not having access to the sex you want. That’s fair, but I think many men feel they don’t have access to sex, full stop. Not just sex with their preferred type of partner, but with any type of partner. In essence, they’re complaining about having no options among which to choose, while you’re saying you don’t like the options you have Women find fewer men attractive and sexually desirable. So even if 10 average/alright looking men might be interested in having sex with a woman, who is totally mediocre in every aspect herself, they might not… Read more »
Look, that’s a valid point I guess. I’m not interested in sex with men outside of a relationship so that means bars and Craigslist are not options. I have never pursued casual sex, I wanted a boyfriend. So, yes it’s different but I would argue that the feelings of rejection and loneliness are similar. I’ve had a few casual experiences in my life and I just feel lonelier afterwards as well as kind of ashamed of myself. It’s not worth it. What’s happened to me is that I’ve been constantly rejected as a potential relationship partner because they want a… Read more »
Oh, I’m well aware it’s not true that men will have sex with just any woman. That’s all part of the stereotype, though. I don’t even think it’s necessarily true for the men who aren’t getting any sex, who are envious of women’s seeming ability to post a craigslist ad saying, “Is anyone up? I’m DTF.” and getting torrents of replies. It’s this idea that if women lowered their standards, they can probably get a taker, but if they lowered their standards, the probably still wouldn’t be getting any takers. It looks like a bit of “Oppression Olympics” if you… Read more »
I just realized that the “men will have sex with anything” stereotype can put a little shame on women as well. If a man turns a woman down for sex, and she’s been told over and over that men are indiscriminate, then the message to that woman is extremely negative. She then thinks, “how unattractive I must be, turned down by someone with no standards at all….” Time to drop the “sex with anything” trope, because it’s bad for everyone all around.
Well, you can either decide that if “all men will have sex with anything” and they aren’t having sex with you that either a) you are horribly unsexable or b) all men WON”T have sex with anything” and that they do indeed have barriers to getting to sex just like women do.
It’s better to deconstruct the myth rather than decide you are unsexable. Men have all kinds of reasons for saying no, just like women do.
There is no point thinking in absolutes.
Men are a lot more forgiving to women on looks when it comes to casual sex.
They find a much larger number of women attractive
So every woman can expect to be found sexually acceptable by a considerabe no of men.
There is a significant difference of degree, here. I cant see why some people have a problem acknowledging this unmistakable dynamic.
A common logical fallacy used to refute a claim, is to distort it and take it to its logical, impossible extreme. When women are told that its easier for them to obtain casual sex than its is for men, they distort it into “Women can get sex whenever they want with whomever they want” Obviously the latter is much easier to disprove and is obviously impossible, if only due to physical and logistical limitations. Similarly when told that men find a much larger number of women attractive, and are generally more forgiving on looks when considering casual sex, women say… Read more »
I get an entirely different vibe here from women, vis a vis dating/sex/relationship forums where the easy availability of casual sex seems more of menace to women than an advantage. Most women actually have no qualms about acknowledging that obtaining casual sex is way more easier for them than it is for men. They just say that its unimportant to them (which I disagree with but is a topic for another day). They belittle this fact as much as possible – “yes we have the ability to make men put their genitalia in ours…so what?” and “why do you let… Read more »
I think most women eventually learn that just because a guy wants sex with us, it doesn’t necessarily mean anything about how he feels about us beyond monentary sexual attraction. I saw a venn diagram once on a dating website which illustrated the dilemma women face. In one circle was all the guys who want her for sex and in another circle was all the guys who like her as a person (including her dad, her relatives, gay men friends etc.) and her challenge is to find the guys in the small area of overlap. So women have to do… Read more »
@Sarah…
“I think most women eventually learn that just because a guy wants sex with us, it doesn’t necessarily mean anything about how he feels about us beyond monentary sexual attraction.”
Ok. But Sarah is this not EXACTLY what occurs when a woman finds a f**k buddy or FWB. She too has no interest in anything beyond the sex.
See, this is what I get frustrated about with women: it is OK for you (women) to do casual sex, have f**k buddies etc. But, not for me as a man.
Wtf!!!!
I think it depends on how the woman has sex with her partner. If it’s a chore, performed rarely or grudgingly… yes, wanting sex is a momentary attraction. I’ve stopped putting much effort into pursuing it. Because I’m tired of rejection and because our sex life is so routine. Because most of the time I feel deprived of it and am accordingly resentful. I wouldn’t have married for this. But before that changed, I recognized what a catch she was… a generous and adventurous lover and expected our sex life to be an ongoing source of stimulation and pleasure; a… Read more »
I meant that as a description of my own life experience. I hope you don’t think I meant it as any judgement of you or yours. Just an example of how one man’s thoughts on things have changed over time.
I’ve heard so many stories like that and I honestly wonder what happens to cause it. Is she just bored with sex? Medical problems? Too tired? Did it start after you had kids?
Probably started around the kids. Worsening over time. It’s a feedback thing. She loses interest in meeting my sexual needs, I lose interest in meeting her emotional needs. Anger, resentment, etc…
I find that in a long term relationship, sex can get boring. Men seem to like falling into a routine and just doing the same thing they always do because they know it works. Women like anticipation, teasing, flirting, sexual tension, emotional connection, and variety. it seems like a lot of couples get into a vicious cycle where both parties are unhappy with their sex life but they can’t break out of the negative pattern.
I’m the one bemoaning routine in our house. But, definitely, being with someone who won’t engage your fantasies or share any of hers = boring sex life.
I can second that. I’ve stopped having sex with my wife because no sex is better than boring sex and she’s unwilling to talk about it or work on it. I feel like I’m in Annie Hall: “the sex is so boring, and we only have it once a month!”
@ a husband.
Google “Athol Kay.” Or better yet, buy his book on Amazon. Put it to work and your gripes about having a sexless marriage will soon become a distant memory. I know it sounds like hyperbole, but this guy is for real and has changed a lot of guys sex lives around, without the costly expense of marital counseling. Seriously, at least go and give it a whirl.
Yup!!! it a giant shit sammich! Most men do not realize this until we get into it. The reason is women have a preference for men whom they want to have sex with and men whom they wish to marry. In most cases, they are mutually exclusive.
I have been there and shall not return.
If you’re a man an want a sex life then AVOID marriage at all cost(s). If you have the money and do not have anything against sex workers, that is the best way to go.
Haha… Oh, and it still gets more complicated than that even. The most desirable of men, the kind of guys that you want to be having sex with, generally have their pick of women. Even if he’s the smoothest guy in the world, there’s a small part of you that’s going to be setting off the “he must be a player” alarm somewhere in your head. That part of you will want to resist having sex with him too soon, but if you hold back too long, you risk losing him to another more willing or attractive girl. Most times,… Read more »
True, but, if you don’t want to date a player, it’s actually a good thing if he gives up quickly and moves on.
If you are only interested in casual sex, though, then yeah, bed the player. At least he’ll know his way around and won’t bother you by calling the next day. 🙂
@Sarah Radford Do you think it would be an option for him (your bf) to use some natural forms of anti-depressants. There is proof that yoga and other natural methods (like diet change and herbs) are more effective than pills in treating many illnesses including depression. I just sounds like you’re a bit upset by not having sex as often as you’d like and it might eventually cause a problem. I’ve been on anti-depressants and to be honest I’m surprised that your boyfriend even wants to have sex once a week. Have you talked to any other types of doctors… Read more »
I hear you, Sarah….your relationship with your good BF is somewhat unsatisfying….you also believe that you cannot attract better into your life because of your attractiveness level….and that must be causing quite a bit of angst…. I have been watching PUA/ RSD (Real Social Dynamics) videos on youtube…initially, some of the stuff made me really angry…but some of it was quite fascinating…about how to change your life and open up your mind and attract better people and experiences into your life….if you have time or the interest, check out RSD (Tyler or Julien) on youtube when they talk about being… Read more »
Is there anything PUA’s have to say that would apply to women? It seems like their advice to women would be: (a) be young. (b) Be hot. Since to a PUA, there’s no other reason to be with a woman…
Adapt yourself to the dating reality. Thats the synthesis behind the PUA doctrine.
The real question is: just why does PUA exist?
Too many sexually frustrated men who see a double standard on the part of women.
Look, you are attracted to whom you are attracted. Unfortunately, most women only find a few men attractive. Why even Ester Perle notes this in her book “Mating In Captivity.” It has been documented in scholarly research. Lisa Gottlieb points this out in her book, “Just Marry Him….”
So, just what can we men do about it? NOTHING!
Esther Perle AND Lisa Gottlieb… nice work. Two great books that few women will ever read, and fewer still will ever heed.
I liked the first book, I thought it was insightful about the difference between love and desire. But reading a summary of the second, it sounds like Gottlieb is encouraging women to marry men they don’t feel passionate about. Which is kind of the opposite of Jules point. If your wife isn’t passionate about you, your sex life and life in general will kind of suck. Ask me how I know.
I also find the message given to women in books like “Just Marry him” very cringe-worthy from a mans perspective. It seems these authors/experts are encouraging women to be disingenuous and marry men they are not really passionate about and not that sexually attracted to. while addressing women, these authors beware women that attractive/desirable men might appear to be attainable initially but are only available for flings and casual sex relationships…not committment and marriage. So they should marry the beta males. I dont think any self respecting man would want to be in that position. Thankyou very much. I would… Read more »
But that seems like what a lot of men are saying in comments about relationships and sexuality that I read on GMP and elsewhere — that women are too shallow and always chase the assholes/alpha male types, while ignoring the better guys who are shyer and less flashy. (Call them nice guys or beta males if you will.) If women are going to pursue a broader variety of men, that means being willing to pursue men who may push fewer “attraction buttons” but make better partners.
@Sarah…. “If women are going to pursue a broader variety of men, that means being willing to pursue men who may push fewer “attraction buttons” but make better partners.” I think what Ms. Gottlieb is really saying is you women need alter what you view as attractive in men. If women would cease and desist with most women being attracted to the same types of men, there would be more “attraction buttons” immediately. In essence, broaden your horizons. Marrying a man that is a great husband, father, and family man is the wrong way to go if there is no… Read more »
Sarah
I dont think anyone has a right to expect women to change their preferences in men. i’ve been debating this topic for a decade now and my whole objective is for women and society to acknowledge that they’re more selective of the 2 sexes. If women are shallow, if very few men push their attraction buttons, then so be it. I just want men to be fully aware of the reality of female sexuality.
@Tim… Women are more selective ONLY when it comes to marriage and/or long term relationships. I cannot understand how you could possibly believe women are more selective when they will have sex with a man whom they would not even consider dating!!!! Does not sound very selective to me. Women do this frequently. When their “market value” drops after age 30, usually they then seek out more “selective” men to marry…..Total disaster for the unlucky many. Usually, this chosen soul will not have the sexual attraction of her previous lovers….Thus the man is going to be confined to years of… Read more »
@Tim….
No. She (Ms. Gottlieb) is not advocating “bait & switch” or other disingenuous methods. Quite the contrary.
She is really trying to get women to change their thinking on what really makes a man attractive. As she stated in the book, the very men most women are super attracted to make lousy long term partners.
@Leia: I’ve spent a couple years off and on engage in the PUA lifestyle… and I’ll be first to say that better than 95% of it is complete and utter crap. The other 5% of it, however, can be life-changing. Tyler and Julien (among others) are living proof of that. I’d humbly throw myself in that category as well. The crazy thing is… like most types of advice, only a tiny fraction of the men who expose themselves to this stuff (I’d guess far less than 5%) will ever truly be able to take full advantage of it. It’s like… Read more »
I begin to wonder if the problem is that partners aren’t satisfied sexually. I know from having sex with men that alot of or most men really don’t do what women want sexually and as a result women just lose interest. Also men want really kinky things sexually at the same time that their partner is NOT being satisfied. I’ve always thought that it’s necessary for our new only heterosexual lives as per the Bible bleh for there to be mandatory sexual education classes, however not simply and only to show the effects of sex etc..but to show how to… Read more »
I had sex a couple of times with a gf I had when I was 19.
There was a 3 yr gap before I had the next sexual experience. Since then I havent had any (I’m 28 now)
So there you go. My sex life meets your criteria many men and women enter sexual relationships before there is any long-term commitment.
How the fcuk is it regular, convinient, frequent sex and physical intimacy without bending backwards
I know what youre thiking. That Im a sad fucking loser, But I’ve refuted your flawed reasonsing already.
^
Thats for you, Nick mostly
If you’re a sad fucking loser it’s more apt to be because your logic sucks and not because of the frequency of your sexual congress. But unless I know you (and if I do, I’ve got your pole trimmer in my garage if you need it back) I’m not a good judge of the truth of that proposition. I didn’t propose any argument or reasoning; instead I countered your argument by saying that plenty of people enter monogamous marriages even though they’re already having marriage-free sex. Or put another way, men have access to frequent sex and still get married… Read more »
You didnt initially say men who have access to frequent sex still get married anyway You said men who have had pre-marital sex still get married This can easily refer to a guy who only had sex a few times with a gf or managed a few one night stands in 2 decades, or it can refer to a guy who is getting laid left and right. . Anyways, I totally disagree that the vast majority of young males (thats a good 60%) have access to frequent casual sex, hooking up, one night stands, booty calls, friends with benefits, flings,… Read more »
Fine, disagree then.
Wait, who are you disagreeing with? I just checked and sure enough, I never made the claim that “the vast majority of young males have access to frequent casual sex.” That must have been that other guy; he’s the spitting image of me, only he’s made of straw.
Can’t say if “Nick, mostly” is arguing just to argue, or if he really is completely missing Tim’s point… but I’ll say this: Of the handful of men I know who are easily able to acquire frequent, casual sex from a variety of women, not a single one of them has any interest in marriage whatsoever. They (we) do often end up in long-term committed relationships, but it’s rare that they remain monogamous past the first six months or so. I know I can’t speak for every man, but my personal experience bears out Tim’s assertion. If the average man… Read more »
This is rather depressing. What you are saying is that there is no reason for a woman to have a relationship with a man. Either he’s a player who will cheat, or he’s a loser who is glomming onto the only available female for sex but is secretly bitter and resentful.
Men in the last remaining matriarchal society the Musou tribe seem pretty happy. They aren’t forced to do “til death do us part” and they don’t get forced to pay child support or alimony and they don’t get forced to live in a house with women who nag or tell them they’re dirty or to put down the toilet seat or to take their feet off the table etc..etc..etc.. Like I said I think this whole marriage / only heterosexual relationships nonsense based off of a simple book is just odd and not working nor has it ever worked. Insanity… Read more »
@Sarah Radford, I’d have to say that what you wrote in response to my initial post is a gross misrepresentation of what I said. Tim’s argument was that sex was one of the primary motivating factors for men to pursue relationships with women… To me, and most men that I know, this much is plainly obvious. Why anyone would argue against that is beyond me, but I was simply trying to point out that there is a significant body of evidence that suggests this to be true, despite Nick mostly’s claims to the contrary. That’s not to say that sex… Read more »
Sorry but re-reading your comment, it sounds like you were saying that men don’t really want relationships, but that men who can’t get enough casual sex will settle for being in a relationship just to get sex. My question is, why should I want to be in a relationship with a guy who feels that way? Sounds like a terrible basis for a long term relationship.
@Sarah…..
Most married women wan to be married but are not terribly interested in sex. So, it begs the question from the male perspective: why should I want to be in a relationship with a woman who feels that way? Sounds like a lousy basis for a long term relationship.
Too many women, yourself included, simply refuse to address the matter of sex and marriage. Honestly, any man who thinks marriage is going to be the answer to his lack of sex is just plain stupid.
“men are either players OR losers who can’t get laid easily and only commit reluctantly, grudgingly and resentfully” Interesting dichotomy you’ve put forward. I would only partially agree with it because its more complicated than that. There is no point thinking in absolutes. I think most men don’t dwell upon that resentment for long (unlike me). They find a nice woman and move on. They go on to have healthy fulfilling relationships with those women. But every now and then, specially on a guys night out, when listening to the sexual escapades of the perpetually single good looking stud in… Read more »
Not sure what the benefit to wonen is in the world you describe though yes it would be better for men. As a woman it would mean lots of meaningless sex while young followed by a long period of loneliness and isolation after, I don’t know, age 45. Maybe women would develop more lesbian relationships for long term companionship and support since men would not provide it. Maybe a matriarchal society would develop around women and children supporting themselves, with men being viewed prinarily as accessories or sexual playthings or sperm donors. (I feel there is an alternate reality/sci fi… Read more »
The world that Tim described is almost exactly the world that I live in… and yeah, I agree that it’s hard for me to see the benefit for women in it over the long-term. The crazy thing though is this is what women have asked for. The world that Tim described is the natural end point of sexual liberation. Your point is valid as well. My extended social network includes a couple hundred guys, and I’d be willing to be a good sum of money that I’ll have more sexual partners in a year than 80+% of them will have… Read more »
I don’t think that’s what all women have chosen. I’ve read studies that indicate only 20% of college women are engaged in so-called “hookup” culture. I think a lot of women ARE looking for relationships but that doesn’t mean they make good choices about partners. Women are often attracted to men who are exciting and confident over men who aren’t , just like men prefer women who are more physically attractive over women who are less physically attractive. PUA’s and players can use that to their advantage. I would be the first to say that many women can be pretty… Read more »
Sarah The premis of the world I’ve attempted to describe, is that men have easy access to casual sex., just like women do now. Its a presumption, no matter how unrealistic. No, Im not saying even in that world, ALL men will have equal access to casual sex. Im just saying that if 15-20% men have access to casual sex now, maybe 75-80% men will have access to it in that world….just like in the real world, 80% of young women are attractive enough to obtain casual sex easily. I think women would be even more inclined to select the… Read more »
Yes it would be a lot different in that case, maybe like gay culture was in the 1970’s, after sexual liberation but before AIDS.
I’m a firm believer based on our anatomy and brains that humans were and are still supposed to be mainly homosexual and only have sex with the opposite gender for the sake of procreation and that is why many men go straight for penetration and ejaculate so quickly when with women even though women want hours of “proper” foreplay which in most cases is usually necessary to even have an orgasm. Women want bonding long term relationships and men don’t. Our brains are just so different and as a result during our many centuries of forcing/forming the dichotomy between the… Read more »
@harry…. Women want bonding long term relationships and men don’t. I disagree. There are many many men who desire LTRs and marriage. I was once one of those men. However, due to the disinterest in sex shown by my wife and the mental torment it caused, I elected to divorce. I truly believe their are men whom women wish to have good hot sex with and men whom they desire for LTRs. They are completely different men. The very frustrating aspect of all of this is women just refuse to admit it. When you find the majority of married men… Read more »
Co-signed. You really should consider going back and reading the article I cited earlier… or anything by David Buss really. The idea that women have sex with “bad boys” and marry “nice guys” (who they don’t necessarily want to have sex with) isn’t just a myth… it’s a well-researched and established social and biological phenomenon. The destruction of the old mores surrounding sex has destroyed many of the natural inhibitions women had towards displaying their trues sexual natures, and as a result the “bad boys” are cleaning up. I’ll give you an example of the two worlds that exist to… Read more »
I really find it funny when someone tries to downplay the importance of sex in marriage and relationships. Usually such voices come from women. These people feel that their view on the prioirty and importance of sex in marriage would be reciprocated. I’m gonna say that The assurance of regular, convinient, frequent sex and physical intimacy without bending backwards, is the biggest incentive for the vast majority of men to get into a committed monogamous relationships (marriage) Im not saying that sex is the only thing that keeps a man in marriage. Because in most marriages, familiarity sets in and… Read more »
So essentially fewer men would buy the cow if the milk was free.
But that doesn’t appear to be supported by the evidence – many men and women enter sexual relationships before there is any long-term commitment.
Now I might believe you if you said that fewer people would enter into marriages if they felt their spouses might unilaterally end the sexual part of the relationship. But I doubt few people have a conversation about that possibility, let alone think it’s at all likely in their own relationship.
But that doesn’t appear to be supported by the evidence – many men and women enter sexual relationships before there is any long-term commitment
Yes, many guys have ‘pre-marital sex’ at some point in their life. Whats the point here?
I don’t know what the point is; it was your assertion that “the assurance of regular, convinient, frequent sex and physical intimacy without bending backwards, is the biggest incentive for the vast majority of men to get into a committed monogamous relationships (marriage).” I don’t see any evidence for that. Do you? And if so, can you share?
why dont you see the logical fallacy in your argument?
It’s your argument, I was simply rephrasing it as a common cliché and said it doesn’t seem supported. If you see a logical fallacy in it, perhaps you should correct it.
When many men sign on to monogamous marriage, they are essentially signing up for periods of celibacy as much as signing up for regular sex. I think for many men this is a common source of disillusionment in their marriages, that on some level they convinced themselves that marriage comes with a good sex life, but the long-term reality may be quite different. (This happens to women, too, of course. There are sex-starved wives out there.) This is what bothers me about the larger taboos protecting monogamy. Not uncommonly, a vow of monogamy means a vow of celibacy for long… Read more »
As a twice (and still) married man, I agree. With more life experience behind me, I can alternately laugh or cry at the naiveté of my never-married self, but I used to look forward to marriage as among other things, meaning as much sex as I wanted with the person I wanted it with most. The “wanted it with most” part is pretty durable, but the “as much as I wanted” turned out to be just a daydream.
I didn’t get married to “have access to sex”. There’s way to do that that’s far less complicated. When I talk to me about their relationships, most seem to have a similar experience.
There’s something to be said for going from “casual partners” to “going steady” as a way to make sex easier. But beyond that?
Lots of men actually get married because they fall in love, because they would like to build a family, have children, etc. Novel idea, huh?
Lars, i’ve dealt with your straw man arguments in numerous posts on this thread. Please read my posts below especially in response to Sarah and Nick Mostly.
How much time in our lives do we spend actually performing sex, compared with everything else? Of course it’s a very small fragment if compared to everything else. But what if you compare it to anything else. There are numerous things I enjoy doing. But since I also have to work to earn my living and don’t have an unliited amount of time, I don’t get to enjoy them as much as I would like. That doesn’t mean that I enjoy them any less, and I can’t see no real purpose or “good” coming from giving up on them (except… Read more »
“But for crying out loud, it’s just sex.”
you neglect, badly, one biological fact, that is inescapable and fundamental to your article. Males produce 20x more testosterone than females. Therein, wholly, lies the disparity between male and female sex drive.
The tone of your article seems to prescribe that the female-level of this hormone should be the norm. Why do you do that?
Thank you for such a thought provoking article. My partner and I use the Deliberate Orgasm Practice (also called DOing) for daily sexual pleasures. As a woman, when I take care of my sexual tumescence, I increase the level of enjoyment of my partner and our life together. We use this practice to create an orgasm in my body everyday (and DOing has tools to have it every time). From there, other sexual activities can flow easily and naturally if we both desired because there is no performance worries on either one of our part. I have already had an… Read more »
I completely appreciate you perspective from someone who is married but what do you say to someone like myself who is hopelessly single and can’t seem to meet anyone? I haven’t had sex in so long I can’t even calculate. I can’t seem to meet a new girlfriend or even score a one night stand. Why does it seem like everyone has made it into a relationship? What about guys like me who are just kind of here? Single and alone.
You’re far from alone, Raymond. There are plenty of guys in the same boat – it’s just that our voices don’t get heard much. (Perhaps because all we ever do is moan about how little sex we’re getting. Maybe we should work on that …)
There are fat, mediocre looking, trashy, insecure, broke, boring, nerdy, disabled women who are getting laid left and right.
http://www.rooshv.com/craigslist-slut
It just lights up a firecracker up many a woman’s ass when they’re told its easier for them to obtain sex. and that men are held to a higher standard of looks and every fcuking aspect. Mediocrity, inadequacy doesnt come in men alone.
Wait, because they get slut-shamed and have a risk of pregnancyy, they will only fuck really attractive alpha males…so we are told.
they can get laid, but they’re no more likely to find love and happiness than an unattractive man, in fact, possible less so, because an unattractive man can still get a hot GF if he’s really smart, funny, and/or rich.
He’s talking about getting sex. Those women are also much more likely to ovulate and much less likely to get prostate cancer than any man. Not that either of those abilities have anything to do with them getting casual sex except… each gender’s ability to get casual sex.
FYI, not everyone has it made in a relationship. Certainly the author sees things one way. From the perspective of another married guy, the article is complete BS. If I was going to be not having enough sex, I’d rather not have it while single.
Raymond– I don’t know if this will help you but people aren’t naturally supposed to have monogamous relationships anyway. Humans are naturally polygamous and the idea of conventional relationships are based off of traditional political schemes but since the idea is still widely accepted as the “norm” relationship today, single people are left in the dust (even though they are doing it right, so-to-speak). Sex is very important, in the way that anything necessary for survival is important, but sometimes (because it’s taboo) it’s often misrepresented (porn and extreme sexual fetishes, for example) and sometimes sex is lumped with relationships.… Read more »
Janice how blinded you are by the female persepctive. Raymond is not saying that he ONLY wants to have sex within a relationship. He is also alluding to the fact that its very difficult for most to obtain casual, no strings attached sex. He would probably love to have NSA sex if he could, as long as he didnt find a relationship. We men dont lurve monogamy either. But most of us have realized thats the only options available to us. The vast majority of men have 1 or 2 gfs in their lives before they get married. The vast… Read more »
Um, a LOT of men would choose serious committed monogamous relationships. Like pretty much all my male friends. I’ve had my roommates straight up tell me that casual sex sucks and sex is only good if you have feelings for your partner. My female friends (I’m in college, just btw) are all WAY more interested in hooking up than my male friends. My male friends all agonize to me about how they’re jealous of my relationship and how they just want to fall in love.
Maybe he should have written, we’d see how many men are willing to marry twice. I can’t imagine doing it again.
AF
“my female friends (I’m in college, just btw) are all WAY more interested in hooking up than my male friends”
Atleast it means ‘slut-shaming’ isnt holding women back anymore.
Btw, what kind of men do your female friends require for casual sex? Colleges are brimming with young horny dudes desperate to take up any opportunity to fuck (Ive been there)
And do you know there are more horny virgin dudes in colleges than there are girls? So really wtf is keeping your female friends from obtaining casual sex? What dick size do they require?
AF Casual sex ‘sucks’ because its fk’n difficult to obtain for most men, to begin with. It requires the amount of time and effort that you women cannot fathom. 100 times more effort and time is required to be spent on obtaining casual sex than actually having it. The logistics of obtaining it can drain so much energy out of a man that its not worth it. Attracting women is another story. When the time actually comes to have it, its usually a drunken one night stand with a woman who most likely has inhibitions, is uncooperative in bed, sets… Read more »
Wow, you sound angry. Look, I completely agree with you about casual sex generally being lousy sex. I have had not a few such experiences, and I felt totally awkward. Inhibited? Well, yeah, it is difficult to be completely un inhibited when you’ve just taken your clothes off in front of a guy you BARELY KNOW. What’s he thinking? Does he think my butt is fat? Does he think I’m a slut? Does he have an STD? That’s what goes through my mind. Boundaries? Yeah there are some things I wouldn’t do until I really got to know a guy.… Read more »
Yeah, many women won’t have casual sex because it’s so unsatisfying. It’s like…being hungry and getting something that winds up making your stomach sick and not that good going down in the first place. Lots of nerves and fears, awkward with bodies, often no orgasm for women. Not much in it for us really. And then the being ignored afterwards isn’t so good.
Sarah & Julie You’ve totally missed the point. Mens reasons for not liking casual sex are totally different from yours. Men’s reasons for not liking it have mostly to do with availability, effort and the logistics of it…the lack of convinience basically. Nothing to do with the concerns you have mentioned. Your concerns say nothing about the lack of convinience. As I said, if men can OBTAIN casual sex as easily as women (say, have 10 FWB’s they can call every now and then, w/o dressing up, going drinking, dancing, and chatting up women in loud deafening music etc) they… Read more »
Hey Keith, I don’t think we missed the point at all. We get it. And you all should get that if you want women to have more casual sex (more convenience for you), you’ll make it worth the women’s while (be good at it) and not make her feel slutty afterwards (remain friends). By the way, I know no single women who has 10 FWB they can call. I know maybe 2-3 single women in their 40’s that have 1 or 2 people over a year they’ve called FWB, though sometimes those people are not available to hang out. It’s… Read more »
@Julie Gillis.
“Not much in it for us really. And then the being ignored afterwards isn’t so good.”
There are several women who regularly post on GMP (I shall spare the indignity of naming them) about how they do NOT want the guy to call after a casual hookup. Especially, Mr. Nice (who isn’t going to get the easy sex anyway).
So, if women are hooking up more with the bad boys and such men are NOT calling you (women), your line of argument is simply without merit.
After all, do you really want Mr. Bad Boy to call you?
I don’t much like “bad” men, that’s not my thing. What I’d like would be for conversation and ease if we are in the same social space, respect and a reasonable facsimile of acquaintanship after the fact as before. If I’m gonna sleep with someone casually, it doesn’t mean I want to be treated casually. Treat me kindly and view me like a person before and after.
Not much in it for us really. And then the being ignored afterwards isn’t so good.
I can assure you that men are a lot more friendly, courteous to their casual sex partners than women.
@Sarah….
“I personally don’t know any woman with a booty call list.”
But, most sexually active women do have a “reserve” of men they can call to take care of their needs.
I am a sexually active woman who has never been married, who has spent my adult life dating and in and out of relationships (both serious and short term) and I have never had such a list. I have many female friends, and we talk about our relationships and sex lives. None of them have a list.
Sarah Please dont get offended but I dont know what to make of this. In other places, you’ve mentioned that youre below average in looks, are chubby, insecure of your body, not fashionable etc; and then you go on to say youre a sexually active woman WITHOUT being married and spent your life dating and having short/long term relationships. I can only say that the amount of sexual expereince and the no of partners youve presumably had would be a source of envy to most men. I also cant help but imagine a man in your shoes, who admits to… Read more »
@Keith……
Women like to pretend. Seriously.
Keith, the assumption in most of your posts in this thread seems to be that most (young) men cannot find sex partners or at least find it overwhelmingly hard to do so. Now, it’s been many years now since I was as a young man “in the market”, but even in the 80s what you describe is pretty far from the reality I experienced – and I see no signs that it has changed for the worse. You seem to believe that most women can just say “hi, I’d like an attractive sex partners for the night” and something will… Read more »
Thats why sex work should be legalized and normalized.
Most men dont have the looks and charm to attract common females for casual sex relationships. It is a an unmistakable and obvious fact that women are sexually attracted to fewer men.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that sex is meaningless AND demand sexual exclusiveness. Either sex is a significant part of a relationship or it isn’t. If sex really is trivial, then it shouldn’t matter who you have sex with. Obviously it has some meaning, because people divorce over sexual infidelity. If you say “sex is just sex” when it’s with your spouse, then it’s “just sex” with anyone. Otherwise, it’s trivial when it’s with your committed partner but gigantic when it’s with someone else, so how does THAT work? It’s a lot easier to accept the… Read more »
There is a glaring hypocrisy with the way many couples treat sex, and it is thus: “I don’t want to have sex with you, and no one else can either.” Sex can not be simultaneously so important to a marriage that to go outside of the relationship for sex is the highest violation of the bond, yet so unimportant that you can’t be bothered to help meet your partner’s sexual needs. That’s not to say I’m in favor of cheating, but rather that for some people sex in a relationship is important, and those people should find someone with whom… Read more »
I agree. Why does the duration really matter? The pursuit of a fraction of a second of ecstasy may be worth it, regardless of the duration of the feeling. (Up to a certain point.) I sympathize with the author in part, but I’m ready to take up a beancounter view of sex, inputs, outputs, time motion studies, efficiency, etc.
I totally agree. Sex isn’t a big deal when your sex life going well, but (as you pointed out), just like hunger, or thirst, or sleep, or any other necessary thing, when you don’t have it it takes over your thoughts and life. And I don’t think that’s unreasonable. Add in the fact that being rejected over and over can make you feel worthless and like your partner doesn’t love you anymore and doesn’t care about your needs, well then sex is definitely not “just sex.”
I agree with you wholly. This article is a decent start, but by far a long way from the full picture for most reasonable men. Sigh.
Although I would normally pass by the comments section of a well written article and keep my opinions to myself, I feel there may be those who read this and feel they are different. And that in this case different means wrong. I do not believe that to be true. In my argument there are two points I would like to raise. They are simple. One. Intimacy is indeed more than the act of penetration. Yet, many factors in the chemistry of a relationship affect intimacy. DESIRE to BE intimate with a present partner may evolve into a desire to… Read more »
EXCELLENT point! If sex is supposed to be ‘no big deal,’ then going outside the marriage to get it shouldn’t be grounds for breakup, divorce, and cries of betrayal.
The truth is, sex IS important… but a lot of marrieds like to pretend otherwise because of other issues they have with their relationship.
“How much time in our lives do we spend actually performing sex, compared with everything else?”
Answer: Not nearly enough–that’s the problem.
Thanks for your article, Dork. I know people whose health has interfered with their ability to be sexually intimate. They have strong, steady marriages, even as the healthy and virile couples in friendship circles find themselves getting divorced. I also know men who, following the birth of their children, simply couldn’t deal with the sudden shift of their wives’ attention towards the kids, and the immediate impact on their sex life. They strayed away to ruin the marriage. While I don’t know such women, I’ve read stories here on the Good Men Project about painful sexual warfare. It would do… Read more »
Isn’t asking a cheating spouse for divorce another form of being “unable to deal with changes in the sex life”? Taking on another partner is a change in a couple’s sex life, so why is that change unacceptable but other changes have to be acceptable, but sex is unimportant? As I’ve said elsewhere, a partner can’t have it both ways — sex can’t be totally expendable AND a massive betrayal. Unless one person is defined as the slave of the other’s sex drive (or lack thereof).
“Isn’t asking a cheating spouse for divorce another form of being “unable to deal with changes in the sex life”?”
You are assuming that someone needs to cheat. No one needs to cheat. If someone is unappy in their marriage because of X, they simply need to inform their partner and THEN pursue another relationship.
I think he was posing this as a rhetorical question.
Are you assuming that anyone “needs” to do anything? A person can simply stop breathing. eating, drinking, etc. and accept the consequences.
If someone thinks they have a simple solution to a very common problem, they can pat themselves on the back, happily apply it to their own life and be little less self-righteous.
The problem with seeing breaking up due to cheating as someone being “unable to deal with changes in the sex life” is that typically a person who broke up with their cheating S.O. didn’t break up with them because of the actual change in sex life. They broke up because they had agreed to be in a mutually exclusive relationship, and placed their trust in their partner that they would continue to hold them as the one person that they shared every kind of intimacy with. When their S.O. cheated, it wasn’t just the act of sex itself that was… Read more »
Good, now we’re getting somewhere. I understand about the feeling of betrayed trust. But, it’s the betrayal of a promise not to do something that’s called trivial in this article, so how bad of a betrayal can it be? If it’s a massive betrayal to do have sex, then sex IS a big deal. My point is that it’s completely asymmetrical to say that sex with one person is really not very important while sex with someone else is the most gigantic thing in the world. I can see how it sounds like I’m trying to justify cheating. That’s not… Read more »
I think there’s a difference between a partner who is selfish and unwilling to give pleasure to their partner yet is willing to take it from them, and a partner who wants to give pleasure to their partner but has a lower sex drive or is too busy and tired to give very often.
I think that still follows the example or sex being both trivial and important. I assume the tired partner still think sex is important enough to want orgasms and to expect sexual fidelity. But to say that the partner has a lower sex drive or is too busy or too tired…. So you’ve got a lower sex drive. There are ways to stimulate it. Does the other partner pursue them? Perhaps no, because it’s just sex. The partner is too tired or too busy… in the short term, certainly things come up. But people, myself included, who seem most upset… Read more »